# Comics  > Batman >  Dick Grayson: Robin/ Nightwing/ Agent 37 Appreciation 2021

## Godlike13

[IMG]https://***********/www.comicsbeat.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/12/NIGHTWING_78_PROMO2-scaled.jpg?resize=669%2C1028&ssl=1[/IMG]

*Nightwing Returns in March 2021*

Its a new year, so here is to a better Nightwing in 2021.

----------


## KrustyKid

Most definitely, things are looking great for Grayson to launch off the year

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## K7P5V

Scott McDaniel will always be my favorite artist for *Nightwing* (Dick Grayson):

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## Restingvoice

I bring a Newsarama

*Newsarama: Tom, perhaps the biggest surprise in the announcement of you taking over Nightwing and DC's subsequent solicitation copy for March's issue #78 was the addition of Barbara Gordon as a main cast member.

In the Death Metal: Last Stories of the DC Universe, Dicks and Babs get married— sort of—for the night. How does that inform their relationship in your series?

Tom Taylor:* An alternate universe tale set in the future doesn't really inform our story, but everything Nightwing and Batgirl have been through over the years does.

I love the relationship they have. They're great partners and there have been some great stories for the two. We want to tell the next chapter of Babs and Dick's story.

Our series is informed by Gail Simone, Chuck Dixon, Scott McDaniel, Tim Seeley, Nicola Scott, Kyle Higgins, Devin Grayson, and so many more wonderful creators.

*Nrama: Sticking with Batgirl, by Nightwing's side do you mean fighting crime on the streets and rooftops. Will Batgirl still be an active superhero?

Taylor:* Yes. Batgirl will be an active hero. Actually, she'll be two active heroes. The challenges and threats facing Blüdhaven will need Nightwing, Batgirl, and Oracle.

*Nrama: The solicit for your Nightwing debut states the story "takes Nightwing to the next stage of his evolution as a hero!" What can you tell readers about how Nightwing will evolve?

Taylor:* Part of this is evolution, and part of this is just acknowledging that Nightwing belongs alongside DC's A-listers.

Dick Grayson has been a hero for eighty years. He's lived in the shadow of the bat for much of that time, but my favorite Dick stories are his own when he's the main man. When he's leading the Titans or the Justice League or just standing against it all as a lone vigilante.

Our series is definitely about Nightwing. It's about why he's such a good hero and pushing that further. In the first issue, an opportunity is going to come his way which will test him in a way he's never been tested.

What he chooses to do with this will demonstrate how different he is from Bruce Wayne. This isn't about Gotham. This is about Blüdhaven. This is about a lost, corrupted city ruled by fear and calling out for a hero. This is about a hero stepping out of the shadows to answer the call and to push back against the darkness as a positive, entertaining, compassionate force for good.

https://www.gamesradar.com/tom-taylo...atus-for-dick/

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## Ascended

Happy New Year everyone, and here's to all of us (including Grayson) having a better 2021 than we had a 2020!

Now, you know what makes me interested in that interview Restingvoice posted? The line about "*stepping out of the shadows*...and to push back against the darkness as a positive, *entertaining*...."

Kind of makes me think Nightwing is going to be a much more public and interactive hero, rather than the shadowy stalker of evil. A more "Superman" approach to heroism, rather than a "Batman" one. And I'm really digging that. Maybe I'm wrong and Taylor will have Dick, I dunno, run for mayor or something, but my takeaway is that we're going to see Dick in the spotlight, dealing with the public the way guys like Flash and Clark do. I'm down with that.

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## Drako

2021 is looking good for Nightwing! Last year as the worst we could imagine for him, but like Harvey Dent said in TDK "The night is darkest just before the dawn."

This is what we can expect this year:

*Nightwing #78 by Tom Taylor and Bruno Redondo*


*Future State Nightwing*


*Future State Teen Titans*

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## Drako

*Titans Academy*


*Main player in Gotham Knights, Possible launch date July 16 2021*


*Young Justice Season 4, Phantoms.*

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## Drako

*Titans Season 3.*


*Black Label Book by Scott Snyder, Nightwing Parabola.*


The Dawn is coming.

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## 9th.

Happy New Year everyone, I hope this will a prosperous year for Nightwing. Hopefully Taylors run is noteworthy

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## Avi

Happy New Year everyone! 2021 is truly looking a lot better for Dick. 

I hope we'll get official news about Parabola this year.

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## Frontier

Happy New Year to Dick and all his fans  :Smile: .

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## Restingvoice

"The best Robin and one-and-only Nightwing" - Chris Samnee
EqbZMPGXcAoMiHU.jpg

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## Ascended

Who do we have to bribe to get Samnee on the book when Taylor and co. are finished? I think a Waid/Samnee Nightwing run would be pretty gods damn fantastic, not to mention it'd be great to see Dick get two quality creative teams in a row for a change!

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## Avi

That's stunning. Samnee outdid himself.

Just read up on how Waid talked about NW back in 2008 and wow, that would be something. As someone who enjoyed Tomasi's NW more than Dixon's I like what he said a lot. 




> Comparing the "Grown Up" Wally West and Dick Grayson:
> 
> "What's unique about Wally is he's the only sidekick to grow-up and fulfill the promise... The difference in personality between Wally and Barry isn't as wide a gulf as Dick Grayson and Bruce Wayne, Robin wouldn't grow up to be Batman, but I think it's cool Kid Flash grew up to be the Flash...
> 
> "Dick Grayson is another character that Geoff Johns and I constantly wrestle over ...it's a testament to the character that so many writers really like him...Should he be afforded more credibility in the DCU? Absolutely... There are people at DC who perceive him as a useless character... as less than he is. That's their prerogative because they are in charge...I would write that character in a cocaine heartbeat. I have begged, begged to be given Nightwing, and have been summarily turned down for no good reason. (joking) God forbid they let me do what I want to do! ... He's so complex and interesting the idea that he was supposed to grow up to be Batman, but took a different route is just so rich for drama..., not to say that Pete Tomasi isn't doing a great job, because he is... I really like the Nightwing book now...it's the best I've seen the book in 20 years."


Has he ever mentioned Nightwing in recent years?

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## AmiMizuno

I'm curious. With some versions of the Dc animals they also have a suit. What kind of suit would Nightwing's dog have?

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## Godlike13

A suit with a domino mask and wings.

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## L.H.

Happy Nightwing year to everybody! 
Tom Taylor, on Twitter, said that Red Hood has "definitily a chance" to appear on his Nightwing run. 
I hope we will get some good team up, this year. I've missed Dick being part of the superheroes community, Williamson's JL run was just a first step...
Hoping we will get a proper Titans' run, too

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## Restingvoice

The cover with text and number has appeared and it's clean
hSUoMGi37epfFikbwBPk6P-970-80.jpg
I like that it's clean
The logo under the issue number is no longer Batman as promised

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## Robanker

Here's to another year for Gotham's real greatest protector.  :Smile:

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## Restingvoice

Didn't know this exist. I usually look through the digital store but it's not there even when this came out in Dec 1
9144c+fOe0L.jpg
They also take out the Grayson omnibus from digital store. It used to be there.
Bat symbol's gone here too huh

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## Batman Begins 2005

Here's to hoping Dick Grayson has a great year after the too long Ric debacle. My favourite Dick Grayson story is when he was Batman teaming up with Damian Wayne in Batman and Robin and Batman: The Black Mirror. What a period that was.

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## Batman Begins 2005

What's everybody's favourite Nightwing costume? I have three, the third and most famous version with the Nightwing logo going from the chest to down the arms stripe. After that, DC Rebirth and Batman: Arkham City.

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## Restingvoice

My fave Nightwing costume hasn't appeared yet because I like a little bit of everything or some parts more than the others

EE4uiqXU8AI9HrX.jpg

Example, I prefer the bird at the front, like the BTAS costume, but I like it streamlined, no feather cuts under the bird wing, like the Rebirth version, but I want the line to be thick, like the Bludhaven version. The Rebirth one's too thin.

I like the fingerstripes of Bludhaven though I'm not as much as hardcore fan of it like others. What I like more is the hip stripes of the New 52 because they frame his... hmm... hmm... nicely. Front and back.

I can go with or without the thigh stripes of Rebirth. It depends on how much blue the top has. 

Utilties, I like the Arkham Knight straps for his sticks and the more futuristic compartment inside the gauntlet in New 52. The pockets on the outside in the Bludhaven one is more visible but not as streamlined. 

Domino mask I can go either blue or black. Depending on the overall look.

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## Badou

I dislike all the bird related logos in the costume, especially the dumb looking bird beak thing right in the center of his chest. It looks like an art error most of the time and completely breaks the flow of the costume, imo. Like the current costume shown in that new cover from Taylor's run has one side of the head completely straight but the other side with an angle. It looks like it was a mistake by the artist and I don't get why they did that. If they got rid of that then I think the costume would be okay. 

I guess overall I don't think there has ever been a great Nightwing costume. They have had parts I liked and disliked, but all of them are pretty boring I think. Just not a whole lot you can do with a suit that is mostly black spandex and a few lines of color. It isn't like the Spider-man or even Batman costumes where you can get really creative with the designs because they have a lot more to work with. It is why I don't think the Nightwing costume translates well to live action because it is too plain.

I've never been a fan of the finger stripes and found it weird how attached people came to them, but I guess with a costume that has such few noticeable elements they didn't really have anything else to get attached to? At least those era costumes looked clean. No awkward bird beak, haha. I honestly think the New 52 costume when they toned down the giant symbol in the middle of his chest was okay, as I liked the arm spikes as a carry over from his Batman costume, but it being red ruined it. Then the Rebirth costume had the blue lines being way too thin, but started to look okay when some artists drew the lines thicker. The Arkham costume is probably the best out of the other media costumes, but nothing that inspiring I think still.

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## Avi

My favorite is this one: 

jla 80 giant.jpg

But I don't think it has ever appeared in any comic apart from one random panel. The combination of blue, gold, and black is great.  

I like the Rebirth design mostly because of the gloves. They add some great detail and the Gotham Knights design is good too. It's just a little too busy for the comics, imo.

nw 2.jpg

Runner-Ups: 
The Future State Nightwing might become one of my favorites. Take the Deathstroke stuff away and erase the T for Titans and it's pretty much what I want to see. 

I immensely enjoyed the few times the finger stripes design was drawn with claws. I think it fits the style of the Nightwing mini and I would welcome it if it were implemented in an out-of-continuity book again.

nw fs tt claws.jpg

I agree that the hip stripes were a strike of genius. :Wink:

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## Pohzee

The beak on the bird is too recognizably tied to Nightwing outside of comics to not be his logo at this point. The Rebirth suit is about as close to perfect as I've seen in the comics, but I agree the lines are a bit too thin and I hate the swishes along the boot. I actually kinda liked the blue palms that few artists draw though. The best Nightwing costume overall has to be B:TNA because it is streamlined down into only and entirely the suits iconic elements. But I do now prefer the sharp feathers smoothes off.

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## Drako

If i had to choose, the classic black and blue one still is my favorite. The Rebirth one looks like a incomplete suit and i hate the belts around his arms. 
The Chicago suit second favorite, it would be number one if was blue.



The Reddit user wafflecopter13 made this edit of the Jorge Jimenez cover for Batman 99 and i just added the gauntlets with spikes, reminiscent from his time as Batman, like he had in the New 52.

This is basically my dream Nightwing costume. It has the bird logo with pointy wings at the top, the arms and finger stipes, the black and blue that i love and the gauntlets. It also has i little stripe in his legs, more suttle than the Rebirth one.

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## Restingvoice

> If i had to choose, the classic black and blue one still is my favorite. The Rebirth one looks like a incomplete suit and i hate the belts around his arms. 
> The Chicago suit second favorite, it would be number one if was blue.
> 
> 
> 
> The Reddit user wafflecopter13 made this edit of the Jorge Jimenez cover for Batman 99 and i just added the gauntlets with spikes, reminiscent from his time as Batman, like he had in the New 52.
> 
> This is basically my dream Nightwing costume. It has the bird logo with pointy wings at the top, the arms and finger stipes, the black and blue that i love and the gauntlets. It also has i little stripe in his legs, more suttle than the Rebirth one.


Yes these edits are pretty close to what I want
Also I like to add, no armor, at least not the parts that makes him heavy. He should be light, fast, and flippy. Dodging hits including bullets rather than tanking them like movie Batman. 
So I'm not sure about the rubber look on Brett Booth's design because they look inflexible. It should be lycra or spandex leotard, what gymnasts would wear.

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## Wingin' It

Happy new year! Things are looking up for Dick for sure, I'm actually excited.

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## Ascended

Favorite costume is still the Dixon era blue and black, with the finger stripes and points-on-the-collar-bone chevron. Thus far I've found all attempts to add additional color to the suit, like the Rebirth costume, to only distract and provide inconsistent design aesthetics. 

But I do really love the New52 Booth design; it provided some much needed texture to the suit and had it simply updated the Dixon design instead of adding in weird bits of color like the not-belt on his hips (and been blue instead of red) it'd have been damn near perfect. 

And I have a lot of love for the DCAU version too, the one with the bird emblem instead of the chevron. I like the chevron more but Dick needs a marketable emblem and the bird logo has been used in a ton of larger media stuff. 

I'm also somewhat partial to this redesign I did myself. Pretty sure a lot of the detail will be lost in the forum though.

Nightwing McArthur.jpg

Edit: yup, lot of detail got lost. There's a bit of line work in there you probably can't see, a few seams and such that're not showing up.

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## Pohzee

If I'm uploading my own images, I usually upload them in an image hosting site like Imgur, then plug the image url in and it displays at much higher resolution.

Personally I think that would be a cool halfway between Nightwing and Batman Beyond for something like Future State, but its a but tech-y for it to be his standard costume for me.

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## lemonpeace

Dick Grayson (Dragonslayer) vs The Dragons of the Dark Multiverse [Tales from the Dark Multiverse: Metal]



I'm not a huge Dick fan but he was one of the coolest parts of this story; easily had the best weapon.

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## Ascended

> If I'm uploading my own images, I usually upload them in an image hosting site like Imgur, then plug the image url in and it displays at much higher resolution.
> 
> Personally I think that would be a cool halfway between Nightwing and Batman Beyond for something like Future State, but its a but tech-y for it to be his standard costume for me.


I post my own art so rarely imgur isn't worth it, but I appreciate the tip. I'll keep it in mind if I decide to start showing off my work more.  :Big Grin: 

And yeah, my design is a little more tech-y than normal. It's actually part of a specific pitch that saw Dick going up against more advanced and powerful threats, necessitating a upgrade in his costume.

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## Frontier

> Dick Grayson (Dragonslayer) vs The Dragons of the Dark Multiverse [Tales from the Dark Multiverse: Metal]
> 
> 
> 
> I'm not a huge Dick fan but he was one of the coolest parts of this story; easily had the best weapon.


I'd be kind of amazed if Scott Snyder didn't write this himself...

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## dropkickjake

> And yeah, my design is a little more tech-y than normal. It's actually part of a specific pitch that saw Dick going up against more advanced and powerful threats, necessitating a upgrade in his costume.


That specific pitch is still the greatest Nightwing status quo that will never see the light of day.

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## Ascended

> That specific pitch is still the greatest Nightwing status quo that will never see the light of day.


Damn straight. But of course it's the greatest status quo that'll never see the light of day; we wrote it!  :Big Grin:  

In all seriousness though, I am damned proud of that pitch. It's by far the most expansive and detailed status quo Dick has ever had (not to brag), with more range and narrative options than the books have ever dared try. I'm confident (legit *confident*) that if our pitch ever saw print (and if we were good writers) we could hit Top 25 ranking.

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## lemonpeace

> I'd be kind of amazed if Scott Snyder didn't write this himself...


according to Lanzing, the Parall-axe (and the inclusion of Dick as Drayonslayer) were his idea. it seems like Snyder took a similar approach to this as he did with Batman and The Signal, where they used his name as a story credit for clout, helping with plotting, and consulting but the other writers did the actual writing.

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## Drako

> Damn straight. But of course it's the greatest status quo that'll never see the light of day; we wrote it!  
> 
> In all seriousness though, I am damned proud of that pitch. It's by far the most expansive and detailed status quo Dick has ever had (not to brag), with more range and narrative options than the books have ever dared try. I'm confident (legit *confident*) that if our pitch ever saw print (and if we were good writers) we could hit Top 25 ranking.


What pitch is this?

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## Ascended

> What pitch is this?


Something me and dropkick knocked out last year. Built a whole pitch and franchise bible for Dick, plotted out years' worth of storylines, arcs and trades, wrote a draft for a first issue. It was good fun. I hate pretty much everything I create but this pitch is something I think was pretty fantastic.

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## Godlike13

Way back when a couple of us came up with a pitch for neon lit, Vegas like Bludhaven. So you never know.

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## AmiMizuno

> Way back when a couple of us came up with a pitch for neon lit, Vegas like Bludhaven. So you never know.


Yea and that maybe Bludhaven could also be a upcoming entertainment industry for tv and movies.

On another note. Batman the animated sequel is having another sequel I hope we get more Nightwing. Also Bruce Timm shouldn't be by himself. I don't want Bruce and Dick situation with Babs.

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## Drako

any suggestions for the Puppy's name?

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## Drako

Dick, Damian and Bruce being the last ones standing against the army of the Robin King.

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## Restingvoice

> any suggestions for the Puppy's name?


Tripod

Pupwing

Nightpup

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## Smilingblade

> Tripod
> 
> Pupwing
> 
> Nightpup


I second Nightpup!

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## Mr. White

> any suggestions for the Puppy's name?


More distracted by that grappling line...

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## Drako

> More distracted by that grappling line...


It's not like half of Bruce's gadgets are even feasible.  :Big Grin:

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## Mr. White

> It's not like half of Bruce's gadgets are even feasible.


Haha. True.
Just don't get why it's not from an end as against the centre.
How can he accurately take aim?

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## Godlike13

Could be just to make it look different, could also be so they can can have him swing around like on a trapeze.

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## Pohzee

Was just thinking that if it shot out of both ends instead of the center he'd have a portable trapeze.

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## Avi

Yeah, it's supposed to mimic a trapeze. Jessica Chen (or maybe it was Taylor?) said so on Twitter a while back.

That dog still looks like the cutest thing ever.

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## WonderNight

Question is teen titans academy going to be a superhero team book like justice league with nightwing fighting crime in the dcu or is this him teaching in a classroom? Because the preview art looks like a just school book.

I hope nightwing gets a team with him out being a superhero and not just a teacher.

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## Drako

Nightwing'll be in this anthology.




> DC Love is a Battlefield #1 is 2021's first seasonal anthology (on shelves Feb 9)and has a #DCDialogueCover! Ten incredible short stories! Tell your LCS you're in need of some lovin' on Valentines Day this year so that they'll hold a copythese anthologies move fast.





> Nightwing and Starfire in "Ex-Position"
> Written by Sina Grace
> Art by Karl Mostert


https://twitter.com/drinkpinkink/sta...91571599773696

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## Frontier

> Nightwing'll be in this anthology.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> https://twitter.com/drinkpinkink/sta...91571599773696


Wow, a Dick and Kori story instead of Dick and Babs? It references them as exes, but it's still something.

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## Drako

The art of this story is by Karl Mostert, same guy who did Tales from the Dark Multiverse  Dark Nights Metal.



https://twitter.com/Kamo_1981/status...311745/photo/1

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## Pohzee

Looking forward to that a good bit actually. Not many Dick and Starfire comics these days

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## AmiMizuno

True the question is if this will be in cannon or out. I wonder what it will be about.

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## Avi

Karl Mostert on art for a Valentine's special seems a bit strange, but it's nice to see Dick and Kory get the focus in a comic story again. I hope it does them justice.

Museum Masterline Batman: Hush (Comics) Nightwing Statue has been announced. Maybe I just never noticed before, but I feel as if there have been a lot of statues in the last months.

mmdcbh-06ex_a08.jpg

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## Restingvoice

Fine detail with the mesh 
Hush-Nightwing-Statue-031.jpg
Also, this one unzips at the back

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## Drako

> Karl Mostert on art for a Valentine's special seems a bit strange, but it's nice to see Dick and Kory get the focus in a comic story again. I hope it does them justice.
> 
> Museum Masterline Batman: Hush (Comics) Nightwing Statue has been announced. Maybe I just never noticed before, but I feel as if there have been a lot of statues in the last months.
> 
> mmdcbh-06ex_a08.jpg


Looks awesome!
I wish i could buy this, but with the conversion to our money.... the price would be like 7.000.

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## CPSparkles

I'm excited to see what Tom Taylor does with Dick Grayson. I feel giddy to have such a huge name writing nightwing.

My favourite Nightwing suit is the Discowing. The current suit is too distracting [or maybe it's just the art. too clingy]

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## Ascended

That statue is pretty damn impressive. But what was that price, a grand? For a friggin' comic book statue? To rich for my blood. 

And yeah, I'm excited for Taylor too, Sparkles. I dunno if this is gonna turn out to be the kind of Nightwing I *want* but I expect it to be quality, and I'll take a well done Nightwing story any day of the week, even if it's not the story I would've told.

Added Nightwing back to the pull list this week, in fact. Felt good.  :Big Grin:

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## CPSparkles

> That statue is pretty damn impressive. But what was that price, a grand? For a friggin' comic book statue? To rich for my blood. 
> 
> And yeah, I'm excited for Taylor too, Sparkles. I dunno if this is gonna turn out to be the kind of Nightwing I *want* but I expect it to be quality, and I'll take a well done Nightwing story any day of the week, even if it's not the story I would've told.
> 
> Added Nightwing back to the pull list this week, in fact. Felt good.


Amen to that. The premise of Taylors book isn't what I'd normally hope for but he is a big name which it's about time and hopefully indicates that DC means business when it comes to nightwing.

Taylor also can be relied on to tell decent stories with splashes of humour and the occasional emotional tugs. If nothing else we'll get a crowd pleasing story.

Hope the Snyder project is still in the work though not as excited about that as I am about Taylors Nightwing

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## AmiMizuno

Any ideas you think the dog will be named?

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## Drako

> Hope the Snyder project is still in the work though not as excited about that as I am about Taylors Nightwing


He said he was two projects still unannounced for 2021. Hopefully one is Nightwing Parabola.

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## WonderNight

Yea I can't get excited about nightwing because of the dixon bat centered direction. But I hope it's good and we enjoy it.

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## Drako

https://twitter.com/SinaGrace/status...59818979389441

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## WonderNight

What you guys preferred age gap between dick and bruce? I perfer it as 13 years, dick 26 and bruce 39.

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## CPSparkles

> What you guys preferred age gap between dick and bruce? I perfer it as 13 years, dick 26 and bruce 39.


I feel that it's important that Bruce encounters Dick at around the same age he was when he lost his folks. Dick should be around 8 and Bruce around 20.

Dick should remind Bruce of himself in that alley

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## redmax99

> https://twitter.com/SinaGrace/status...59818979389441



I love the reason she realize she cut out with jonn.

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## Avi

> Any ideas you think the dog will be named?


I think as people here suggested Nightpup would be a good name. No idea what Taylor will be going with, though. Could be anything. While he likes to use pets a lot in his runs I don't see him having a certain naming convention.




> https://twitter.com/SinaGrace/status...59818979389441


The escrima look interesting, Mostert already drew them that way in the death metal tie-in, but I thought that was an apocalypse thing. So we still have the old logos here, huh? Kinda makes me miss Kory's solo. I hope the writer takes inspiration from that DickKory story and the recent JL metal tie-in. They shouldn't be uncomfortable in each other's presence. (ngl that "oh" is giving me anxiety, lol)




> What you guys preferred age gap between dick and bruce? I perfer it as 13 years, dick 26 and bruce 39.


11 years or sth between 10 to 13 years.

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## Drako

I didn't even notice the old logo in the title. At least this will released before issue 78.

Dick Grayson: Through the Years by Tony Daniel. Too bad this was commissioned before Grayson was a thing, so this now feel incomplete.

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## Restingvoice

> https://twitter.com/SinaGrace/status...59818979389441


Look at those cheeks divided by the bike!




> I feel that it's important that Bruce encounters Dick at around the same age he was when he lost his folks. Dick should be around 8 and Bruce around 20.
> 
> Dick should remind Bruce of himself in that alley


Same reasoning but I'd rather age up Bruce to 10-12 than make him debut as Batman when he's 18

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## Darkcrusade25

> I didn't even notice the old logo in the title. At least this will released before issue 78.
> 
> Dick Grayson: Through the Years by Tony Daniel. Too bad this was commissioned before Grayson was a thing, so this now feel incomplete.


Aye he covered the n52 suit and the most clean version too

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## Pohzee

For Bruce to have travelled the world and become a master at everything, he'd basically need a PhD in crimefighting, so I wouldn't have him active until 26 or 27 right in his physical prime. I wouldn't have him take Dick on for a year or so, putting him at 28.

I wouldn't have Dick start as Robin until 14, but lets say Bruce takes him in and trains him for a year or two at 12-13. 

That puts it at about 14 years. Certainly too little for Bruce to be a true father to Dick, but I've grown more favorably to the cool Uncle/best friend dynamic rather than the parental one.

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## Drako

I like when he start his career younger cause you don't have to compress his years as Robin so much and gives him more experience.

What age he was in Robin Year One, i don't remember they saying it. But by the looks i think he was around 10 to 12 and to me is the perfect window for him to start as Robin.

Eight years old is too young imo, but i would not be against Bruce taking him over around that age and training like two years to become Robin.

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## Restingvoice

> I like when he start his career younger cause you don't have to compress his years as Robin so much and gives him more experience.
> 
> What age he was in Robin Year One, i don't remember they saying it. But by the looks i think he was around 10 to 12 and to me is the perfect window for him to start as Robin.
> 
> Eight years old is too young imo, but i would not be against Bruce taking him over around that age and training like two years to become Robin.


He entered middle school in the beginning of Year One so 12

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## Aahz

> Eight years old is too young imo, but i would not be against Bruce taking him over around that age and training like two years to become Robin.


Eight years also really stretches the Batman timeline, and doesn't work well with Tim's age due to their connected origin story.




> I feel that it's important that Bruce encounters Dick at around the same age he was when he lost his folks. Dick should be around 8 and Bruce around 20.
> 
> Dick should remind Bruce of himself in that alley


Honestly I think if you want them to be the same age when they lose their parents, it makes more sense to have Bruce parents be killed when he was 12, then the other way around.
Bruce anyway not really start to train to Become Batman untill his mid to late teens, so you don't really loose anything by doing that, and than he would also the other Robins at a similar starting age.

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## Frontier

> I didn't even notice the old logo in the title. At least this will released before issue 78.
> 
> Dick Grayson: Through the Years by Tony Daniel. Too bad this was commissioned before Grayson was a thing, so this now feel incomplete.


Is that supposed to be Dick's Batman? Or Bruce? it looks too angry to be Dick. 



> For Bruce to have travelled the world and become a master at everything, he'd basically need a PhD in crimefighting, so I wouldn't have him active until 26 or 27 right in his physical prime. I wouldn't have him take Dick on for a year or so, putting him at 28.
> 
> I wouldn't have Dick start as Robin until 14, but lets say Bruce takes him in and trains him for a year or two at 12-13. 
> 
> That puts it at about 14 years. Certainly too little for Bruce to be a true father to Dick, but I've grown more favorably to the cool Uncle/best friend dynamic rather than the parental one.


I'd want it young enough to where Bruce can still be a father figure for Dick because I feel like that's an important part of the dynamic. I've never really bought into a non-parental take on their relationship.

----------


## Drako

> Is that supposed to be Dick's Batman? Or Bruce? it looks too angry to be Dick.


It's DickBats. You can differentiate the two by his Utility Belt(has a bat shape in the middle) and his gauntlets (That has only two round parts in his forearm).

----------


## Badou

If Dick is already a teenager when he becomes Robin then he loses the Boy Wonder title. He's just the Teen Wonder then, which hurts his legacy, imo. So I'd prefer him to start at age 10 and Bruce can be in his mid 20s. Basically I think Dick and Bruce should kind of mirror Dick and Damian. That is how I would arrange it.

----------


## Restingvoice

> For Bruce to have travelled the world and become a master at everything, he'd basically need a PhD in crimefighting, so I wouldn't have him active until 26 or 27 right in his physical prime. I wouldn't have him take Dick on for a year or so, putting him at 28.
> 
> I wouldn't have Dick start as Robin until 14, but lets say Bruce takes him in and trains him for a year or two at 12-13. 
> 
> That puts it at about 14 years. Certainly too little for Bruce to be a true father to Dick, but I've grown more favorably to the cool Uncle/best friend dynamic rather than the parental one.


Year One has him started leaving Gotham at age 13 but didn't clarify his education, New 52 the moment he finished high school, but limit his teachers to 7 and each about different disciplines that Bruce picks up really quick or already good at, they basically made him already super talented, just lacking knowledge, experience, or refinement. Rebirth he already started training with Zatara in high school. 

I agree with him having already a good base in mind and body and prefer he starts as early as possible and never stop learning. Picking Sherlock Holmes book as a child, started doing street exploration like in Gotham TV series, learn martial arts in middle school, studying chemistry in high school, so the world travel is focused more on skills he can only gain outside, like the secret near death meditation of Nanda Parbat.

Then when he came back he keeps on learning ever day. So he can come back as early as possible but he's just not that good at it yet.

----------


## Frontier

I don't see Bruce going on his worldwide training arc until he's 18 at the most.

----------


## AmiMizuno

Wait generally how old is Dick when he is Nightwing?

----------


## Drako

> Wait generally how old is Dick when he is Nightwing?


He had already dropped college, so around 18, 19.

----------


## AmiMizuno

I often wonder about that. In some like the animated series I think he finished college. If he did what would he even go to college for? I don't mind if he doesn't go. I just wonder if some of the reason they didn't know what to do. I often thought maybe social worker

I'm Curious if Zatanna was the same age has Dick would you guys think she and Dick should Date?

----------


## Drako

https://twitter.com/SinaGrace/status...85492076236800

----------


## Wingin' It

> Is that supposed to be Dick's Batman? Or Bruce? it looks too angry to be Dick. 
> 
> I'd want it young enough to where Bruce can still be a father figure for Dick because I feel like that's an important part of the dynamic. I've never really bought into a non-parental take on their relationship.


Agreed. Dick should be the same age that Bruce was when his parents died, the same age as Damian when he comes to Gotham for the first time, for symbolic reasons. 

I do think that Bruce and Dick have a father/son type relationship since the beginning, though it is different from the other batkids in that Bruce was still "growing up" as a young man in his mid-late 20s when he adopted Dick. So it has elements of a friendship/brotherly bond too.

----------


## AmiMizuno

> https://twitter.com/SinaGrace/status...85492076236800


With how DC treats Kori. I'm not really looking forward to this. Hopefully this is actually good and not bashing on Kori. Not lustfully or anything similar to that.

----------


## Aahz

> Wait generally how old is Dick when he is Nightwing?


In the original comics he was 19.

----------


## Frontier

> With how DC treats Kori. I'm not really looking forward to this. Hopefully this is actually good and not bashing on Kori. Not lustfully or anything similar to that.


I hope so too.

----------


## WonderNight

> I often wonder about that. In some like the animated series I think he finished college. If he did what would he even go to college for? I don't mind if he doesn't go. I just wonder if some of the reason they didn't know what to do. I often thought maybe social worker
> 
> I'm Curious if Zatanna was the same age has Dick would you guys think she and Dick should Date?


To me dick dropping out of college should be him realizing that the normal civilian life isnt for him, that dick grayson and nightwing are one and the same. So getting a degree is pointless because his life is being a hero being nightwing, what does nightwing need from a degree.

I which dick could date zee (Dem Fishnets  :Embarrassment: ) but dick is bat grounded, but bruce is aging up zee she needs to be deaged.

----------


## Pohzee

Seeley said that he saw Spyral as Dick's metaphorical college. A civilian life certainly isn't suited to him.

I thought Dick and Zatanna were cute in Young Justice, but in the comics her relationship to Bruce makes that impossible.

----------


## AmiMizuno

I mean how many different jobs has he had ? Also what should his relationship with Jason be? Despite the way he acts I wonder if Jason cares or no. I mean he sees Dick has everything he isn't

----------


## Drako

I don't think Jason cares about what's going on with Dick's life. He has his own problems.

----------


## Wingin' It

> Seeley said that he saw Spyral as Dick's metaphorical college. A civilian life certainly isn't suited to him.
> 
> I thought Dick and Zatanna were cute in Young Justice, but in the comics her relationship to Bruce makes that impossible.


Huh, that's interesting. Makes sense when you frame his Spyral years that way.

I wish we'd seen more of their relationship in YJ. They were extremely cute and then one timeskip later, they're broken up and moved on. We never got to see how it would work (or wouldn't). Yeah, the Bruce thing makes it a little weird, but this is hardly the first time they've shared love interests unfortunately.

----------


## WonderNight

If spyral was dicks college years than id wish that nightwing kept the things that worked for him in spyral and bring them into nightwing, because right now its just dick and a empty city.

----------


## AmiMizuno

What parts of Spyral work ?

----------


## WonderNight

Something's like some support characters, gear, locations, themes, genre, global trotting, god garden etc.

Dicks been nightwing for over 3 decades, its time to have more to show from it that a costume and empty setting.

----------


## Avi

A yes to all of that.  :Big Grin: 

And regarding gear, I'd love for Dick to have the Spyral Implant back or that technology he used in Batman #0 or #1 where he impersonated the Joker. I think gear like that could give more grounded stories another layer and tap into the Dick is a performer backstory/trope. Basically, Dick isn't just investigating as Nightwing but also regularly going undercover. It's not as if Spyral was the first time Dick did undercover work.

----------


## Rac7d*

> To me dick dropping out of college should be him realizing that the normal civilian life isnt for him, that dick grayson and nightwing are one and the same. So getting a degree is pointless because his life is being a hero being nightwing, what does nightwing need from a degree.
> 
> I which dick could date zee (Dem Fishnets ) but dick is bat grounded, but bruce is aging up zee she needs to be deaged.


I don’t think that makes sense especially for a Mortal.

----------


## Pohzee

> A yes to all of that. 
> 
> And regarding gear, I'd love for Dick to have the Spyral Implant back or that technology he used in Batman #0 or #1 where he impersonated the Joker. I think gear like that could give more grounded stories another layer and tap into the Dick is a performer backstory/trope. Basically, Dick isn't just investigating as Nightwing but also regularly going undercover. It's not as if Spyral was the first time Dick did undercover work.


It sounds like you are talking about Batman #1 from the New 52, which happened before Dick joined Spyral. But yes, if that were his "college experience" I would like for him to apply some of the skills he acquired there a bit more often.

----------


## Wingin' It

> It sounds like you are talking about Batman #1 from the New 52, which happened before Dick joined Spyral. But yes, if that were his "college experience" I would like for him to apply some of the skills he acquired there a bit more often.


I'd love to see more of his skills going undercover/manipulating enemies as well, that was something Grayson was good at showing.

----------


## AmiMizuno

I agree. To be honest. I do like the idea if they just had him be an acrobat. A freelancer.

I'm curious with how close Donna and Dick were(Before this whole change her origin thing) how would Dick and Diana be able to interacted? I would really like a story with the team

----------


## Ascended

> Something's like some support characters, gear, locations, themes, genre, global trotting, god garden etc.
> 
> Dicks been nightwing for over 3 decades, its time to have more to show from it that a costume and empty setting.


At one point we did have a growing, flourishing setting, supporting cast, and rogues gallery. We look back on the original solo and Dixon era with a fair degree of scorn now, because the "Bat regression" has devolved Dick into a sidekick (and a poor one at that!) and stripped him of his more unique facets, but those are all problems that really didn't manifest until Infinite Crisis, when DC literally blew up all the world building that had been put into the character. And DC seems to have worked hard to ensure that no amount of world building would stick ever since. 

Fortunately, with Dick seemingly getting more page time and respect and higher caliber creators, maybe this is turning around and we can start the slow process of rebuilding his brand. It won't be a quick development but these kinds of things are always a long term investment.....and hopefully DC now realizes how much potential revenue they've lost by disrespecting the IP and will work to correct their screw ups.

----------


## AmiMizuno

I'm curious  what about the Judge as a mythical villain?  Also given that the Titans are more often in New York City. What about Bludhaven be around Buffalo? It's farther away from gotham but still close.Or should there be San Fransisco?

----------


## WonderNight

> I don’t think that makes sense especially for a Mortal.


Ok then tell me, what would a college degree do for dick as nightwing. Dick's life is about being a superhero. Anything else just gets in the way.

Man I'd love for nightwing to be the nick fury of the future state justice league.

----------


## AmiMizuno

> Ok then tell me, what would a college degree do for dick as nightwing. Dick's life is about being a superhero. Anything else just gets in the way.
> 
> Man I'd love for nightwing to be the nick fury of the future state justice league.


True. He technically doesn't need the money. But he does like helping people. He could go into Social worker. He could easily use being Nightwing in watching children not being harmed. Well the only job that could also work was in Ric. A cab driver also. I mean he doesn't want to relay on Bruce. He needs to have his own money. He is also a people person.

I'm curious with how at times Cassie and Steph get little light. What kind of stories would they be able to be in with Nightwing.

----------


## AmiMizuno

So we have more info on Teen Titans Future State

https://www.cbr.com/tim-sheridan-tee...ate-interview/





> My image of Nightwing is of someone who has been through it all, yet manages to do this very difficult job without being affected by the darkness. I thought, let's see what happens when he does get affected by the darkness, and surprisingly, it's not Batman who influenced him to get to that point. What we see here is that it's Deathstroke's influence that has done the damage. After the big event that led to the world as it is now for the Titans, Dick Grayson found a kinship with Slade, essentially swapping Batman for Deathstroke. If there's anybody we were sure wasn't going to go to the dark side, it was probably Dick Grayson, yet look where we are

----------


## Wingin' It

> So we have more info on Teen Titans Future State
> 
> https://www.cbr.com/tim-sheridan-tee...ate-interview/


Interesting. I'm not opposed to a darker take on the character for an alternate future, but I wonder how they're going to explain how Dick got to that point.

----------


## Pohzee

I know people aren't going to be open to the Future State version of Dick, but I do think its kinda cool. And what the writer says about Dick as a character in general I think bodes well for beyond Future State.

----------


## AmiMizuno

The issue is this could be the future. But the whole point of Dick is suppose to be the opposite of Bruce. So I hope he finds himself. I do hope he doesn't go to be evil

----------


## Wingin' It

> The issue is this could be the future. But the whole point of Dick is suppose to be the opposite of Bruce. So I hope he finds himself. I do hope he doesn't go to be evil


I don't necessarily agree that Dick and Bruce are polar opposites. I think Dick has a lot of traits that Bruce doesn't, personality-wise, but the workaholic tendencies, the temper, the need to be in control/lean towards manipulation if he thinks the ends justify the means....that's stuff he picked up from Bruce over the years. While he was leading the Titans, it was remarked on quite a lot. And this is supposed to be a darker future anyway; if that's what he picked up from Bruce, who knows what he picked up from Slade? So long as the explanation is well written, I could be down for it. I'm one of the few Nightwing fans who enjoyed the New Order, and its a similar principle.

----------


## Rakiduam

> So we have more info on Teen Titans Future State
> 
> https://www.cbr.com/tim-sheridan-tee...ate-interview/


Such a novel take, we haven't seen something like that in, like two years. Let's make it darker. Also "fuck Batman".

It's not like the character is anything but the influence of other people.

----------


## AmiMizuno

Sadly Dc just thinks he isn't his own character. It's true that he is influenced by many people but he shown to have been his own person. It's way too much. They couldn't do anything happy

----------


## OWL45

> Sadly Dc just thinks he isn't his own character. It's true that he is influenced by many people but he shown to have been his own person. It's way too much. They couldn't do anything happy


Its a dystopian future the character should fit the setting. Honestly being to happy is why the character isnt taken seriously. We know this isnt going to happen so not a big deal. Hopefully he is hyper competent and doesnt lose to second and 3rd tier characters like the current version often does.

----------


## AmiMizuno

I guess. I mean after Ric. I was hoping for something else more differently not something even more sad.

----------


## Godlike13

So not just Red X, but the Slade/Dick thing too seems to be influencing things. Hmm, I guess we’ll see how this turns out. I did like that cartoon.

----------


## Rakiduam

> It’s a dystopian future the character should fit the setting. Honestly being to happy is why the character isn’t taken seriously. We know this isn’t going to happen so not a big deal. Hopefully he is hyper competent and doesn’t lose to second and 3rd tier characters like the current version often does.





> I'm glad you noticed that. She's referring to everybody else by their real first name and she starts calling him by his professional name of "Nightwing." That was something I felt really strongly about including in the story. I wanted to show that there's a definite tension between Kory and Dick in this story. Although we don't know the reason behind the tension, there are hints, and we're going to see more of that play out in Titans Academy.


If he is talking about exploring Dick and Kori tension in Titans Academy we are stuck with this gloom and doom for a while.

Also, of course they have to stomp on their relationship a little more.

----------


## Pohzee

> If he is talking about exploring Dick and Kori tension in Titans Academy we are stuck with this gloom and doom for a while.
> 
> Also, of course they have to stomp on their relationship a little more.


If by a while you mean two issues, then yes.

----------


## Rakiduam

> If by a while you mean two issues, then yes.


Teen Titans academy is an ongoing launching in march, or that one is a different book?

----------


## Wingin' It

> Teen Titans academy is an ongoing launching in march, or that one is a different book?


Teen Titans Academy isn't going to be dictated by Future State.

----------


## Rakiduam

> Teen Titans Academy isn't going to be dictated by Future State.


It sounds like it will.




> How closely does the team we see in Future State resemble the one we'll see in Titans Academy?
> 
> The two series are both one as far as I'm concerned. I wanted to make sure readers got a tease of some of the characters they're going to be meeting in Teen Titans Academy, which is going to feature the older Titans we all know and love as well as the current roster and a few new faces.


So yeah, let's screw over Dick and Kory in a new continuity.

----------


## L.H.

I don't get why people start complaining even before reading a book.

Future State is a possible future, and that doesn't mean Titans Academy is going to be a dark book. It just means exploring something new, that will probably happen only in Future State.
I'm going to read it as a alternate future, a kind of Elseworld, and I always loved the interactions between Dick and Slade. 
Looks like, since Joker War, DC is trying to renew their rivalry, and I'm totally on board with this.

Plus, with everything happening around, as we saw in The Flash book, or in Gotham (Teen Titans is two years after Nightwing), i get why things are going dark.

----------


## sifighter

Small Spoiler for Future State Teen Titans (compared to everything else that is).

*spoilers:*
 So I guess they made it canon/retconned  that at some point Dick did become Red X like in the animated series. So the new Red X isn’t even an original idea, it’s someone who is apparently inspired by Dick Grayson’s time as Red X and what it “really stood for”. I’m assuming at some point in Titans Academy we are getting a flashback issue to the Red X story because it probably isn’t exactly like the animated series. 
*end of spoilers*

----------


## The World

> I don't necessarily agree that Dick and Bruce are polar opposites. I think Dick has a lot of traits that Bruce doesn't, personality-wise, but the workaholic tendencies, the temper, the need to be in control/lean towards manipulation if he thinks the ends justify the means....that's stuff he picked up from Bruce over the years. While he was leading the Titans, it was remarked on quite a lot. And this is supposed to be a darker future anyway; if that's what he picked up from Bruce, who knows what he picked up from Slade? So long as the explanation is well written, I could be down for it. I'm one of the few Nightwing fans who enjoyed the New Order, and its a similar principle.


Agreed. I really don't like the ultra simplistic angles of characterization the writers at DC and Marvel haved moved towards over the years. I don't really know when the opposite of Bruce thing cropped up but it makes for one boring read and doesn't make the character any less defined by Bruce in the end. Written well I think Dick should have a gradient of characteristics that show where he's been in life. 



> Small Spoiler for Future State Teen Titans (compared to everything else that is).
> 
> *spoilers:*
>  So I guess they made it canon/retconned  that at some point Dick did become Red X like in the animated series. So the new Red X isn’t even an original idea, it’s someone who is apparently inspired by Dick Grayson’s time as Red X and what it “really stood for”. I’m assuming at some point in Titans Academy we are getting a flashback issue to the Red X story because it probably isn’t exactly like the animated series. 
> *end of spoilers*



Cool

----------


## Drako

LOL Another persona for Dick in canon now.

Dick Grayson: Robin, Nightwing, The Target, Red X, Batman, Agent 37 Appreciation thread.

----------


## sifighter

See I was honestly sure if they were going to go down the Dick Grayson route, I actually assumed in Canon that the student would just be the first red x as his own identity and only we as the readers would know it’s a bad thing. Now it’s tied up in Dick’s history and the cartoon, which is not too surprising from Tim Sheridan given his line of work.

----------


## Rac7d*

> LOL Another persona for Dick in canon now.
> 
> Dick Grayson: Robin, Nightwing, The Target, Red X, Batman, Agent 37 Appreciation thread.


You forgot renagade

----------


## Avi

Does Talon count as well or would that be The Gray Son? :P

Sheridan seems to be excited to write Dick, which is good to hear and see in the actual Issue, but I still have mixed feelings about the new direction.

And speaking about post-FS:
I wonder if Taylor'll just ignore that Dick dated Sonia Zucco? I didn't like her that much and re-introducing an ex-lover tends to be bad news, but it would be cool to connect runs. Higgins stuff has basically been ignored since he was booted off the book... imo Dick could at least benefit from the Chicago characters.

Redondo also teased a panel (of course it's a booty pic) and I'm surprised by the vibrancy of the colours. I'm so ready for an uplifting Dick Grayson comic.

----------


## Drako

I actually would like if he referenced Sonya and Dick's relationship from Higgins run. And having a Mayor and a hero working together is better than a Mayor against the hero, which is already something people tend to do so often.

----------


## AmiMizuno

The reason why people are ignore is because. A lot of things in Dc comics have been getting gloom and doom. Even if this isn't a possible future. Dc been just screwing it's self over and over. Rebirth and now frontier. They are just going to keep rebooting themselves. That's the issue.  Plus Ric has ended and we want something else. Titans ended and we don't want to see a gloom story a lot. New 52 was gloom and screwed over Wonder Woman and Superman at lot. We don't want gloom for so many characters but they keep given us this. Dc has no idea what they are doing. They are taken ideas from a man who didn't know what he was doing.

Well Future State Nightwing 

https://www.cbr.com/dc-future-state-...tman-two-face/

----------


## Wingin' It

> The reason why people are ignore is because. A lot of things in Dc comics have been getting gloom and doom. Even if this isn't a possible future. Dc been just screwing it's self over and over. Rebirth and now frontier. They are just going to keep rebooting themselves. That's the issue.  Plus Ric has ended and we want something else. Titans ended and we don't want to see a gloom story a lot. New 52 was gloom and screwed over Wonder Woman and Superman at lot. We don't want gloom for so many characters but they keep given us this. Dc has no idea what they are doing. They are taken ideas from a man who didn't know what he was doing.
> 
> Well Future State Nightwing 
> 
> https://www.cbr.com/dc-future-state-...tman-two-face/


Future State is a holdover from 5G before that was scrapped, IIRC.

----------


## Pohzee

I thought Future State Titans was pretty awesome. Obviously a lotta people aren't digging the apocalyptic future thing, but its only two issues. In the meanwhile, I really like that they are keeping Dick's connection to Red X faithful to the comics by making it his former mantle. Really hoping we get to see that when we return to the present.

----------


## OWL45

> I thought Future State Titans was pretty awesome. Obviously a lotta people aren't digging the apocalyptic future thing, but its only two issues. In the meanwhile, I really like that they are keeping Dick's connection to Red X faithful to the comics by making it his former mantle. Really hoping we get to see that when we return to the present.


I really liked it too. I thought Dicks costume looked awesome.

----------


## AmiMizuno

Wait it's the costume Dick wearing based on one of his older costumes?

----------


## Drako

> Wait it's the costume Dick wearing based on one of his older costumes? I also have to wonder why does there have to be conflict with Kori. They already bash Kori multiple times does she need this one


The conflict is that he stopped act like he used to and she started acting cold with him, there is no bashing of her.

----------


## AmiMizuno

I'm curious what kind if influence you think Deathstroke will have on Dick?

----------


## Drako

I don't know. But i'm hoping that they can at least re-establish Dick's connection with Slade in the main continuity.

----------


## Avi

> I don't know. But i'm hoping that they can at least re-establish Dick's connection with Slade in the main continuity.


It's about time they do. As good as Priest was for Slade, his distate for Dick still came through when he was forced to write about their connection during the Lazarus Contract.

I wonder if the Deathstroke & Nightwing connection was also one of Didio's no-goes. Dick's writers seemed to want to re-introduce that or at least acknowledge that they have history. When Clayface attacked Dick in Higgins' run one of his forms was Slade and in Grayson Slade was one of the target practice boards.

I just hope Sheridan doesn't only get his inspiration from the TV show.

----------


## Drako

> It's about time they do. As good as Priest was for Slade, his distate for Dick still came through when he was forced to write about their connection during the Lazarus Contract.
> 
> I wonder if the Deathstroke & Nightwing connection was also one of Didio's no-goes. Dick's writers seemed to want to re-introduce that or at least acknowledge that they have history. When Clayface attacked Dick in Higgins' run one of his forms was Slade and in Grayson Slade was one of the target practice boards.
> 
> I just hope Sheridan doesn't only get his inspiration from the TV show.


He made Raven say "Azarath. Metrion. Zinthos." and i can only remember her saying this one other time in the comics. Looks like the Cartoon will be a huge inspiration for him. 

I was worried about how he would portray them, but as far as characterizations goes, it looked normal in the flashbacks

----------


## AmiMizuno

The only Deathwing(I can remember) would be Mirage's son. But who could this new character be since Mirage hasn't been seen in a while

----------


## Drako

> The only Deathwing(I can remember) would be Mirage's son. But who could this new character be since Mirage hasn't been seen in a while


Which new character?

----------


## Digifiend

> Nightwing'll be in this anthology.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> https://twitter.com/drinkpinkink/sta...91571599773696


The second to last comic with that trade dress, right? Green Lantern Season 2 #12 being the last.




> The escrima look interesting, Mostert already drew them that way in the death metal tie-in, but I thought that was an apocalypse thing. So we still have the old logos here, huh? Kinda makes me miss Kory's solo. I hope the writer takes inspiration from that DickKory story and the recent JL metal tie-in. They shouldn't be uncomfortable in each other's presence. (ngl that "oh" is giving me anxiety, lol)


Old logo makes sense as that's out in February, so before the new logo debuts.




> He had already dropped college, so around 18, 19.


Yeah, it was shortly before he turned 20.




> LOL Another persona for Dick in canon now.
> 
> Dick Grayson: Robin, Nightwing, The Target, Red X, Batman, Agent 37 Appreciation thread.


Target?

----------


## Drako

> Target?

----------


## Frontier

> He made Raven say "Azarath. Metrion. Zinthos." and i can only remember her saying this one other time in the comics. Looks like the Cartoon will be a huge inspiration for him. 
> 
> I was worried about how he would portray them, but as far as characterizations goes, it looked normal in the flashbacks


Now that you mention it, even when the cartoon was at the height of its popularity, I can't recall how many times Raven has actually said the full phrase in the comics.

----------


## AmiMizuno

> Which new character?


Deathwing. So unless they are being up Mirage's son again, I'm curious 




> We also meet someone who we refer to as "Deathwing," because he is an amalgam of Deathstroke and Nightwing. This was something I really wanted to do. When we first started talking about Future State, one of my initial questions was regarding Dick and his inclusion in this book.

----------


## Drako

> Deathwing. So unless they are being up Mirage's son again, I'm curious


That's just Dick Grayson acting more stoic, they don't even call him that in the book.

----------


## AmiMizuno

Wait. I been wondering about this for a bit. I know we have Bludhaven but why is it that Jump City has never been an idea for Dick to live? I know that Titans are in NYC but we also have the cartoon that places them in Jump City

----------


## Claude

Didn't hate Future State: Titans - didn't hate it at all. Everyone had a decent voice, it's big and bold, nobody got screwed over...

Taylor's "Nightwing" is where my money's on for The Good Stuff, but I have an optimistic eye on Titans Academy now.

----------


## Ascended

> Wait. I been wondering about this for a bit. I know we have Bludhaven but why is it that Jump City has never been an idea for Dick to live? I know that Titans are in NYC but we also have the cartoon that places them in Jump City


It's been tossed around some, but not much. Most of the time when I see it mentioned it's as a potential new home for the Titans, not for a single hero. I guess the shows aren't popular on CBR?

I never watched the original Teen Titans cartoon (so maybe nothing here applies to it) but my daughter loves GO! and I don't know how easy a translation Jump would be. 

Jump City does have a few "notable" citizens I suppose, if we can call a hobo who only says "howdy!" notable, but they'd require a lot of tinkering to make them fit the DCU. And there's some store names that pop up regularly (can't remember what) but they're overly punny and meta (though a few could probably be used if you were so inclined). Not a lot of landmarks other than "T" and "H" shaped buildings in the bay. Not much to work with, really. In practicality it's largely Everycity, USA, offering little more than a name.

But it does have some name recognition and that's worth something in and of itself. I suggested using the name (and only the name) for Cyborg's setting not too long ago, and it's clearly a well-named place for an acrobat like Dick (perhaps *too* well-named?). So....sure? I wouldn't mind if Dick moved to Jump. It'd still basically be a brand new setting so it's just a name. And it'd make Badou happy.  :Smile:

----------


## Grayson - The Dark Heir

I hate that FS: TT was another bad future for the Titans, but the characters felt like themselves here. If the Academy book can channel that and do big stories without them, you know, going horribly wrong and killing off several characters, I think I'm going to really like it. Some of the names for the students' personas is a bit much, but I like the variety in the characters we saw in just this issue so the main book should be much better on that front.

----------


## Wingin' It

> I hate that FS: TT was another bad future for the Titans, but the characters felt like themselves here. If the Academy book can channel that and do big stories without them, you know, going horribly wrong and killing off several characters, I think I'm going to really like it. Some of the names for the students' personas is a bit much, but I like the variety in the characters we saw in just this issue so the main book should be much better on that front.


Ok, yes it is dark, yes it is another Titan slaughterfest...but I gotta say, I like how everyone's being written so far. Especially Kory. How often do we get to see her so confident and competent? I'm actually kinda excited to see where it goes. And if I don't like it, no harm since it's an alternative future.

----------


## sifighter

> Ok, yes it is dark, yes it is another Titan slaughterfest...but I gotta say, I like how everyone's being written so far. Especially Kory. How often do we get to see her so confident and competent? I'm actually kinda excited to see where it goes. And if I don't like it, no harm since it's an alternative future.


Yeah I’ve said this elsewhere but outside a few series that I was already planning to read, so my list didn’t really change, I’m also mainly using the future state books to get a handle on the writing of Infinite Frontier creative teams. Sure the books will look different in March but if I can trust them to write enjoyable stories now or introduce interesting ideas then I will know which I will pick up.

Am I excited about the dark future? Not really, I’m nebulous too it since I’ve seen a lot of dark futures. But I do have an idea of what characters Sheridan wants to use in Teen Titans Academy in the present day, and I can see what kind of relationships he might develop especially when looking at the flashbacks(flash forwards?)

----------


## AmiMizuno

Let's hope after Future State is done they have someone actually right the Titans. So I kind of wonder if this is a possible future. What will stop this one from happening. I guess that's what Frontier will answer?

----------


## Godlike13

A lot of reasons going in not to like FS TT, but nerveless it was pretty good. It well written, art was cool. It manage its space and cast really well. They had a lot to fit in 20 pages, but they fit the FS plot and had something for most of its core cast. Even if one doesn't like necessarily like what it had for the character, there still was a an arc there. I appreciated that.

----------


## Wingin' It

What would you all like to see out of a new Titans book?

----------


## OWL45

> What would you all like to see out of a new Titans book?


Honestly wouldnt mind some of the ideas introduced carrying over. Dick having a relationship and connection with Deathstroke. The strong independent portrayal of Star Fire. The introduction of Red X are just some examples. I liked the issue and the writer portrayed the characters well. I even like the costume and wouldnt mind it being a variant Dick uses color wise when with the Titans.

----------


## marvelprince

> Honestly wouldn’t mind some of the ideas introduced carrying over. Dick having a relationship and connection with Deathstroke. The strong independent portrayal of Star Fire. The introduction of Red X are just some examples. I liked the issue and the writer portrayed the characters well. I even like the costume and wouldn’t mind it being a variant Dick uses color wise when with the Titans.


Same. I initially wasn’t gonna get this (count me among the ones who tire of the bleak tone of the Titans books) but I’m glad I did. It does fit in the overall Future State landscape and was genuinely fun. I ended getting it to see how Red X would be done and I liked the way it was handled here. And I would love to see Nightwing with some gold in the regular universe. That would look dope.

----------


## Ascended

> What would you all like to see out of a new Titans book?


I haven't read Future State, so I dunno if there's any good ideas there worth carrying over. 

I'm not actually fond of the idea of the NTT generation remaining together as Titans, and the issues with the brand is a thread and thesis level essay all on its own. Suffice to say, I think the Titans name should belong to whoever is the "teen/sidekick" generation and the adults should move on to other things. 

But if I *had* to keep them together? 

First thing to do is look at each of them individually, and decide where they should all be in life now. You simply can't keep the Titans in the same status quo they were in thirty years ago; the strength of the Wolfman era was largely it's growth; characters grew up, changed, learned, evolved....and it's idiocy to think that you can make any of them work by trapping them in a "classic" position they had already outgrown before Wolfman took off. Just look at Cyborg; DC has forced him to repeat the "man or machine?" angst for years, and all it's done is hold him back. 

So you figure, okay, what should Raven be doing by age 25-28? Kori? Dick? Vic? Roy? I have ideas for most of them, but the point is you figure out what each Titan would look like now if DC hadn't regressed/frozen them. Just as an example, I'd have Raven defeat her father, realize someone has to sit in his throne, and become the new queen of Trigon's hell. Raven wouldn't be evil, she'd just rule an evil place. Can she change hell? Or will hell change her? Sticks to her core theme but advances her narrative (plus, zombie/usurped Trigon!) 

Once you know where each individual is at, then you can figure out if there's a reason to keep them together as Titans. 

I'm vaguely fond of the "Titans Army" idea that's been tossed around; basically the JLU cartoon but using the Titans, heroes in their 20's (like Vibe), etc., and I'd throw in some of the Infinity Inc crowd too, like Jesse Quick, Atom Smasher, Obsidian, and Jade.

Then there's the "activist" pitch that....someone (me, maybe?) had. The Titans decide it's not enough to just save the world, they want to take a direct hand in making it better, and you end up with a kind of superhero non-profit organization dedicated to making real social change. Likely too topical a concept these days, but in my head I can see a kind of "WildCATS volume 4" reimagining of the superhero construct, using idealistic NPO's instead of jaded, greedy corporations as a basis. 

But honestly, I'd rather the Titans were just friends who hung out together on their down time, with the occasional team up or guest appearance just for fun, rather than a full time, active team. Those relationships are highly important, but they don't require a functioning team to be used.

----------


## Restingvoice

> What would you all like to see out of a new Titans book?


As someone who can't afford a lot of books, I wrote in Create Your Own DC Line that I only want two series. Justice League to portray the adult heroes in rotation, and Teen Titans to portray the younger heroes in rotation. 

So when speaking about adult Titans, I would want them to be in the Justice League.

Since that's not the case, and we have multiple adult teams, then my question is what are the other adult teams are doing, and for Titans is "something other than that"

if there's no "something other than that" then this team is not needed

I don't have an idea since Justice League seems to cover everything, GLC is space, JLD is supernatural. Do we have an interdimensional team?

----------


## Drako

> What would you all like to see out of a new Titans book?


I just want the Titans to not get screwed over, being killed or having to deal with another treason.

----------


## Wingin' It

https://twitter.com/Williamson_Josh/...66519501176832

Looks like my favorite dynamic duo might be getting together again soon :-)

----------


## Avi

Fingers crossed. They are due for a proper reunion.  :Big Grin:

----------


## AmiMizuno

Interesting that Damian is getting his own comic but still keeping the name Robin. Any ideas for a new name ?

I'm liking What they have planned for Nightwing. I hope maybe one day they will take him more seriously

----------


## Drako

My favorite moments of them.
Every time i look at that hug i can't not think that Damian looks like Scott Snyder.

----------


## Wingin' It

> Interesting that Damian is getting his own comic but still keeping the name Robin. Any ideas for a new name ?
> 
> I'm liking What they have planned for Nightwing. I hope maybe one day they will take him more seriously


I think he's certainly in a better spot now than he has been since early Rebirth.

----------


## Badou

> https://twitter.com/Williamson_Josh/...66519501176832
> 
> Looks like my favorite dynamic duo might be getting together again soon :-)


Doesn't look like there is anything planned for it. So I don't think people should go in expecting anything. Tomasi said during his Detective run he had Nightwing plans at the start then nothing really came of it. Sure, it sucks to see how irrelevant Dick and Damian's relationship is these days, but it does feel clear that DC doesn't really want to push the two together anymore.

----------


## Wingin' It

> My favorite moments of them.
> Every time i look at that hug i can't not think that Damian looks like Scott Snyder.


The last scene they have together before the fight with Heretic always makes me emotional. 

I'm still a sucker for this bit from Nightwing Rebirth. 

**Edit, can't get the pic to post but it's the heart-to-heart they have after rescuing Shawn. You can use your imaginations  :Smile: **

----------


## Drako

> Doesn't look like there is anything planned for it. So I don't think people should go in expecting anything. Tomasi said during his Detective run he had Nightwing plans at the start then nothing really came of it. Sure, it sucks to see how irrelevant Dick and Damian's relationship is these days, but it does feel clear that DC doesn't really want to push the two together anymore.


Nothing really came of it cause Dick was stuck was Ric for two years.

----------


## Wingin' It

> Nothing really came of it cause Dick was stuck was Ric for two years.


Right, it's a totally different landscape than it was a couple years ago. It's not confirmation, sure, but Tom and Joshua definitely know what fans want to see.

----------


## Badou

> Nothing really came of it cause Dick was stuck was Ric for two years.


I think Tomasi said that after Dick was already stuck as Ric. I remember fans being happy that maybe it would lead to Dick going back to Nightwing, but obviously it never happened.

----------


## Wingin' It

> I think Tomasi said that after Dick was already stuck as Ric. I remember fans being happy that maybe it would lead to Dick going back to Nightwing, but obviously it never happened.


Idk, it would just be weird for both writers to be teasing it on Twitter and then for nothing to come of it. Either they already have something in the works or they're gauging fan reaction.

----------


## Rac7d*

> Doesn't look like there is anything planned for it. So I don't think people should go in expecting anything. Tomasi said during his Detective run he had Nightwing plans at the start then nothing really came of it. Sure, it sucks to see how irrelevant Dick and Damian's relationship is these days, but it does feel clear that DC doesn't really want to push the two together anymore.


Let me hope man

----------


## Avi

> My favorite moments of them.
> Every time i look at that hug i can't not think that Damian looks like Scott Snyder.


That last bit shouldn't be as right as it is. Now I can't unsee it. Rip.
Such good moments between the two. 




> Doesn't look like there is anything planned for it. So I don't think people should go in expecting anything. Tomasi said during his Detective run he had Nightwing plans at the start then nothing really came of it. Sure, it sucks to see how irrelevant Dick and Damian's relationship is these days, but it does feel clear that DC doesn't really want to push the two together anymore.


I mean, anything could happen now that the bat writers are talking to each other more often than before, but I get where you are coming from. Before Ric Damian appeared in quite a lot of Nightwing Rebirth Issues (he was heavily featured by Seeley and the one-shot guest writers), but Nightwing is the only title that has made an effort to show them together in recent years.

----------


## Robanker

Dick making Damian likable only proves how awesome he is.  :Smile:

----------


## Grayson - The Dark Heir

I'm just guessing here, but given what we know, I feel like Tomasi mentioning Nightwing went nowhere because the Ric direction was extended for Joker War.

As for a Titans book, Teen Titans Academy is always one of the many ideas I've had over the years so it's still pretty surreal to think it's happening. Here's hoping it does the concept well, because the first FS issue was good enough to give me faith in the creative team.

----------


## AmiMizuno

I hope so too. To be honest Damian is at his best with Jon and Dick. Damian has grown at lot more with Nightwing than his own father or mother. It makes you wonder if he should have been a Nightwing supporting character

----------


## Wingin' It

> I hope so too. To be honest Damian is at his best with Jon and Dick. Damian has grown at lot more with Nightwing than his own father or mother. It makes you wonder if he should have been a Nightwing supporting character


Well, Damian's personality was developed partly to foil Dick. They work well together by design. That, and he wasn't originally intended to outlive their partnership by very long.

----------


## Godlike13

Actually Damian's personality was developed to parody Bruce. Who Dick was developed to foil. Damian wasn't originally planned to outlive Son of Batman. He wasn't designed for Dick, or Robin for that matter. Its something they just kind of fell into.

----------


## Claude

> My favorite moments of them.
> Every time i look at that hug i can't not think that Damian looks like Scott Snyder.


You, sir, have *ruined* a perfectly lovely panel. Forever!




> I think Tomasi said that after Dick was already stuck as Ric. I remember fans being happy that maybe it would lead to Dick going back to Nightwing, but obviously it never happened.


His run was cut short, wasn't it? There's enough in the issues as published to suggest that if it had gone on longer, he was positioning Dick for a bigger role. I think he was in every issue after Joker War?




> Actually Damian's personality was developed to parody Bruce. Who Dick was developed to foil. Damian wasn't originally planned to outlive Son of Batman. He wasn't designed for Dick, or Robin for that matter. Its something they just kind of fell into.


Well, his personality changed pretty sharply once he got paired with Dick - and it's that kind of "second draft" of Damian that stuck. 


Anyway, I'm interested in what all this talk of a closer Bat Family of titles means. I hope it isn't the Snyder style of everyone being perpetually tied into and subservient to a Bat Event - but I wouldn't mind an arc told across the "Nightwing" and "Robin" titles, for instance. 

It's interesting where we've ended up. Between Tynion, Taylor and Williamson we have three writers who are basically peers - rather than in the New 52, say, when Snyder was the Big Dog and everyone else was in orbit. And they're also three writers who strike me as from a slightly different Fan Generation - I don't think _any_ of them would be hugely interested in "OMG, Bruce just punched Dick/Tim/Damian/Ace The Bat Hound!" twists.

----------


## Godlike13

> Well, his personality changed pretty sharply once he got paired with Dick - and it's that kind of "second draft" of Damian that stuck.


It didn’t really though. Dick just allowed them to present his personality from a different perspective.

----------


## Avi

> [...]
> 
> Anyway, I'm interested in what all this talk of a closer Bat Family of titles means. I hope it isn't the Snyder style of everyone being perpetually tied into and subservient to a Bat Event - but I wouldn't mind an arc told across the "Nightwing" and "Robin" titles, for instance. 
> 
> [...]


Williamson mentioned in one of his YouTube interviews concerning New Frontier that the Covid situation changed things a lot. While the writers basically only had the summits before (that not everyone could attend), they have monthly Zoom calls now. It's strange to me that they needed a pandemic to realise that they could use online meetings but ok.

He also said that through those meetings the stories come together more organically. He explicitly mentioned that Taylor talked to him about a title and then Williamson realised they were planning sth similar, so he proposed to connect the two and reference those events. I think his words were sth like "it doesn't always have to be a big crossover just an acknowledgement".

Yes, I hope Williamson was talking about NW and Robin.

Edit: Here is the interview https://youtu.be/NgbE_MjmrBw

----------


## Claude

> It didn’t really though. Dick just allowed them to present his personality from a different perspective.


Nah, it did. "Son Of Batman"/"Resurrection Of Ra's Al Ghul"/"Battle For The Cowl" Damian is extrovert-bratty - shouting at people, throwing things at the wall, picking up chicks in the Batmobile - and needs calming down.

Almost immediately, he becomes introvert-bratty in "Batman And Robin" and needs opening up. Foil for Dick, not for Bruce, and taking advantage of the fact that he's a "regular" in a strip for the first time to morph the character a little.

----------


## Fergus

> My favorite moments of them.
> Every time i look at that hug i can't not think that Damian looks like Scott Snyder.


My favourites too

----------


## Godlike13

> Nah, it did. "Son Of Batman"/"Resurrection Of Ra's Al Ghul"/"Battle For The Cowl" Damian is extrovert-bratty - shouting at people, throwing things at the wall, picking up chicks in the Batmobile - and needs calming down.
> 
> Almost immediately, he becomes introvert-bratty in "Batman And Robin" and needs opening up. Foil for Dick, not for Bruce, and taking advantage of the fact that he's a "regular" in a strip for the first time to morph the character a little.


In the first arc Damian was waterboarding villains and walks off. The whole book if filled with his lines how inferior Dick is, as is everyone for that matter, and Dick is constantly trying to reign him in. They didn't really change the character's personality, they just framed it differently. From antagonizing Bruce as this exaggerated reflection, to taking that exaggerated reflection and foiling Dick. The picking up chicks in the Batmobile was an outliner. They didn't go how do we make this character fit with Dick, they went hey i think this character will really fit with Dick. Repurposing Damian from his start, but pretty much leaving him intact. Cause that is why the idea works to begin with. As Damian was designed to reflect a character that Dick was designed to foil.

----------


## Digifiend

> So you figure, okay, what should Raven be doing by age 25-28? Kori? Dick? Vic? Roy? I have ideas for most of them, but the point is you figure out what each Titan would look like now if DC hadn't regressed/frozen them. Just as an example, I'd have Raven defeat her father, realize someone has to sit in his throne, and become the new queen of Trigon's hell. Raven wouldn't be evil, she'd just rule an evil place. Can she change hell? Or will hell change her? Sticks to her core theme but advances her narrative (plus, zombie/usurped Trigon!) 
> 
> Once you know where each individual is at, then you can figure out if there's a reason to keep them together as Titans. 
> 
> I'm vaguely fond of the "Titans Army" idea that's been tossed around; basically the JLU cartoon but using the Titans, heroes in their 20's (like Vibe), etc., and I'd throw in some of the Infinity Inc crowd too, like Jesse Quick, Atom Smasher, Obsidian, and Jade.


That idea for Raven sounds a lot like Magik from the X-Men. She's a hero, but she's also the ruler of the demonic realm called Limbo!

Jesse Quick isn't from Infinity Inc by the way - she only debuted in the 90s, and became a Titan then a member of the Justice Society. She was married to Infinity Inc's Hourman pre-Flashpoint though.

----------


## Frontier

> Nah, it did. "Son Of Batman"/"Resurrection Of Ra's Al Ghul"/"Battle For The Cowl" Damian is extrovert-bratty - shouting at people, throwing things at the wall, picking up chicks in the Batmobile - and needs calming down.
> 
> Almost immediately, he becomes introvert-bratty in "Batman And Robin" and needs opening up. Foil for Dick, not for Bruce, and taking advantage of the fact that he's a "regular" in a strip for the first time to morph the character a little.


That still sounds like early B&R Damian, he just mellowed out over time.

----------


## Pohzee

*Nightwing #79*
Written by TOM TAYLOR
Art and cover by BRUNO REDONDO
Card stock variant cover by by JAMAL CAMPBELL

Dick Grayson has inherited Alfred's fortune, a puppy, and a whole lot of questions. Who is Mayor Zucco, and what is her relation to the man who murdered Dick's parents? What sinister plans does Blockbuster have for Bludhaven? What kind of dog food is best for a three-legged puppy? To answer these questions, Dick's going to need a little help from his friends -- past and present.

32 pages, $3.99, (cardstock variant, $4.99), available on April 20.


*TEEN TITANS ACADEMY #2*
Written by TIM SHERIDAN
Art and cover by RAFA SANDOVAL
Card stock variant
Cover by by PHILIP TAN

The questions mount around the new school formed by the original New Teen Titans: What's going on with Billy Batson's access to the powers of Shazam, what dark secret is Raven's new pupil Dane hiding, and who's masquerading as the new Red X?

32 pages, $3.99, (cardstock variant, $4.99), available on April 27.

----------


## Drako

NIGHTWING #79

Written by TOM TAYLOR
Art and cover by BRUNO REDONDO
Card stock variant cover by by JAMAL CAMPBELL

Dick Grayson has inherited Alfred's fortune, a puppy, and a whole lot of questions. Who is Mayor Zucco, and what is her relation to the man who murdered Dick's parents? What sinister plans does Blockbuster have for BlÃ¼dhaven? What kind of dog food is best for a three-legged puppy? To answer these questions, Dick's going to need a little help from his friends -- past and present.

32 pages, $3.99, (cadstock variant, $4.99), available on April 20.



BATMAN BLACK & WHITE #5
* Jamal Campbell, acclaimed co-creator of Naomi and Green Lantern Jo Mullein from Far Sector, tells a story that spans the full history of Nightwing.

----------


## Restingvoice

> NIGHTWING #79
> 
> Written by TOM TAYLOR
> Art and cover by BRUNO REDONDO
> Card stock variant cover by by JAMAL CAMPBELL
> 
> Dick Grayson has inherited Alfred's fortune, a puppy, and a whole lot of questions. Who is Mayor Zucco, and what is her relation to the man who murdered Dick's parents? What sinister plans does Blockbuster have for BlÃ¼dhaven? What kind of dog food is best for a three-legged puppy? To answer these questions, Dick's going to need a little help from his friends -- past and present.
> 
> 32 pages, $3.99, (cadstock variant, $4.99), available on April 20.
> ...


Her?! How many kids does Zucco have?!
There's Sonia, a banker
One little boy who didn't know he used to be a boss
One big boy who's a mob boss wannabe
Then this one, who doesn't sound like Sonia, unless they forget.

----------


## Avi

Love the brightness of the NW cover. The solicitations of TT and NW still don't quite catch my interest though.

Didn't expect Nightwing in Black & White, Campbell writing Dick is something I never knew I needed.

I wonder if the Robin in Batman/Superman is Dick? The costume could fit.

----------


## Robanker

HATS on ICE! 

Nightwing at least sounds interesting. I'm one of those sick minds who likes Bludhaven, so all of this sounds pretty good. Jamal Campbell on Nightwing that same month? Thank you, Santa. I didn't think Covid would delay delivery of my gift this long, but I'm glad it finally came!

----------


## Badou

Holy shit, they are already dipping back into the Blockbuster well? How creatively bankrupt is this Nightwing run going to be? This honestly feels like a joke at this point. Just throwing together all the worst elements of Nightwing and retelling the same shit, lol. What an absolute waste.

----------


## Restingvoice

> Her?! How many kids does Zucco have?!
> There's Sonia, a banker
> One little boy who didn't know he used to be a boss
> One big boy who's a mob boss wannabe
> Then this one, who doesn't sound like Sonia, unless they forget.


Nevermind. I just notice the billboard said Mayor Nava went missing, so this is the fourth Zucco kid.

Nevermind nevermind! Nava is a guy I just noticed the portrait

----------


## Frontier

So are we assuming this Zucco is completely separate from Sonia? 

"Alfred's fortune?" He had a secret fortune stashed away in case anybody ever needed it? 



> Holy shit, they are already dipping back into the Blockbuster well? How creatively bankrupt is this Nightwing run going to be? This honestly feels like a joke at this point. Just throwing together all the worst elements of Nightwing and retelling the same shit, lol. What an absolute waste.


It's all in Taylor's execution.

----------


## Restingvoice

> So are we assuming this Zucco is completely separate from Sonia? 
> 
> "Alfred's fortune?" He had a secret fortune stashed away in case anybody ever needed it? 
> 
> It's all in Taylor's execution.


I didn't notice the Alfred's fortune part. They're still forgetting about Julia, so they possibly forget about Sonia.

----------


## Badou

> It's all in Taylor's execution.


Taylor isn't a Morrison or someone I'd trust to really revamp awful ideas into something unique though. 

I'm sorry, but this all sounds awful. You have Bludhaven that is a garbage dump, you have more Zucco drama, bringing back Blockbuster who I can't stand and hate when they try to push him as Nightwing archenemy, and of course there will be Barbara relationship drama probably. All of these are some of the worst elements of Nightwing that everyone seems to complain the most about. I guess they won't complain now because Taylor's name is on it? All you need is some Batman inferiority complex thrown in and it is the complete package of awful Nightwing stories, lol.  

Honestly, this feels exactly like Rebirth. Where DC basically forced Seeley to do the exact same stuff even if he didn't want to. He had to set his Nightwing run in Bluudhaven and use Blockbuster. Taylor's run feels so uninspired I really don't know what to make of it.

----------


## Rac7d*

> Taylor isn't a Morrison or someone I'd trust to really revamp awful ideas into something unique though. 
> 
> I'm sorry, but this all sounds awful. You have Bludhaven that is a garbage dump, you have more Zucco drama, bringing back Blockbuster who I can't stand and hate when they try to push him as Nightwing archenemy, and of course there will be Barbara relationship drama probably. All of these are some of the worst elements of Nightwing that everyone seems to complain the most about. I guess they won't complain now because Taylor's name is on it? All you need is some Batman inferiority complex thrown in and it is the complete package of awful Nightwing stories, lol.  
> 
> Honestly, this feels exactly like Rebirth. Where DC basically forced Seeley to do the exact same stuff even if he didn't want to. He had to set his Nightwing run in Bluudhaven and use Blockbuster. Taylor's run feels so uninspired I really don't know what to make of it.


Just give it a chance

----------


## Digifiend

> I didn't notice the Alfred's fortune part. They're still forgetting about Julia


How did they manage to forget her, when she's been used on CW's Batwoman?

----------


## Robanker

> How did they manage to forget her, when she's been used on CW's Batwoman?


By not watching the CW's terrible television shows?

----------


## Drako

> Just give it a chance


Too much to ask for some, if is not Grayson is trash.

----------


## SiegePerilous02

> Holy shit, they are already dipping back into the Blockbuster well? How creatively bankrupt is this Nightwing run going to be? This honestly feels like a joke at this point. Just throwing together all the worst elements of Nightwing and retelling the same shit, lol. What an absolute waste.


Yeah. I guess Taylor is a good thing considering the positive response he gets; what I know of his writing doesn't indicate this will do it for me though. it seems he's good for providing some panels that provide a "Yas queen!" moment that can be posted on Tumblr, but is otherwise just average.

Fucking Blockbuster being back just indicates this will be more of the same: just average. And Nightwing needs more than average.

----------


## Frontier

> Taylor isn't a Morrison or someone I'd trust to really revamp awful ideas into something unique though. 
> 
> I'm sorry, but this all sounds awful. You have Bludhaven that is a garbage dump, you have more Zucco drama, bringing back Blockbuster who I can't stand and hate when they try to push him as Nightwing archenemy, and of course there will be Barbara relationship drama probably. All of these are some of the worst elements of Nightwing that everyone seems to complain the most about. I guess they won't complain now because Taylor's name is on it? All you need is some Batman inferiority complex thrown in and it is the complete package of awful Nightwing stories, lol.  
> 
> Honestly, this feels exactly like Rebirth. Where DC basically forced Seeley to do the exact same stuff even if he didn't want to. He had to set his Nightwing run in Bluudhaven and use Blockbuster. Taylor's run feels so uninspired I really don't know what to make of it.


I mean, Taylor's not Morrison, but I feel like it's worth giving his shot a take before completely writing it off.



> Yeah. I guess Taylor is a good thing considering the positive response he gets; what I know of his writing doesn't indicate this will do it for me though. it seems he's good for providing some panels that provide a "Yas queen!" moment that can be posted on Tumblr, but is otherwise just average.
> 
> Fucking Blockbuster being back just indicates this will be more of the same: just average. And Nightwing needs more than average.


A competent and fun Nightwing who gets wins in doesn't seem like the worst thing in the world.

----------


## Pohzee

> Taylor isn't a Morrison or someone I'd trust to really revamp awful ideas into something unique though. 
> 
> I'm sorry, but this all sounds awful. You have Bludhaven that is a garbage dump, you have more Zucco drama, bringing back Blockbuster who I can't stand and hate when they try to push him as Nightwing archenemy, and of course there will be Barbara relationship drama probably. All of these are some of the worst elements of Nightwing that everyone seems to complain the most about. I guess they won't complain now because Taylor's name is on it? All you need is some Batman inferiority complex thrown in and it is the complete package of awful Nightwing stories, lol.  
> 
> Honestly, this feels exactly like Rebirth. Where DC basically forced Seeley to do the exact same stuff even if he didn't want to. He had to set his Nightwing run in Bluudhaven and use Blockbuster. Taylor's run feels so uninspired I really don't know what to make of it.


He did revamp Injustice's terrible story into a pretty darn good comic.

----------


## Badou

> Too much to ask for some, if is not Grayson is trash.


Yeah, because I didn't hate Bludhaven and Blockbuster before Grayson, lol.

----------


## Se7en

Doesn't help that being out of Nightwing has been his best moments in recent years with always going back to Nightwing being a massive downgrade in quality regardless of writer so far.

----------


## dietrich

I'm on the give Taylor a chance side. It's all in the execution not the concepts or characters used.

Taylor is a crowd pleaser and that can be good, might just be what fans need right now after Ric. I know I need some fluff to make me smile right now.

Taylor might not be Morrison but he is a decent writer.

Blockbuster can be fun.

Dick inheriting Alfred's fortune is a nice touch he should come after julia [but since Julia isn't a thing it seems] it's fine

----------


## SiegePerilous02

> I mean, Taylor's not Morrison, but I feel like it's worth giving his shot a take before completely writing it off.
> 
> A competent and fun Nightwing who gets wins in doesn't seem like the worst thing in the world.



It's definitely not compared to what we've recently had, but still seems like same old Batman-lite crap that he's been stuck with since the 2000s.

----------


## Avi

Future State Nightwing Preview is out: https://twitter.com/wes_greer/status...73435419385859

----------


## sifighter

> How did they manage to forget her, when she's been used on CW's Batwoman?


I mean it’s also possible that Alfred just didn’t leave Julia in his latest version of his will. The person he’s known longest outside of Bruce is Dick, and last Alfred saw Bruce didn’t need his money.

----------


## AmiMizuno

We got the cover out. Generally by how they got this laid out. This might be a comic cover that shows you a bigger image

----------


## Godlike13

Im torn. This doesn't particularly sound like a lot of new tread, yet at the same time i complain that Nightwing has no mythology cause creators just ditch whatever the previous creators did. So on one hand its Bludhaven, Zucco, Blockbuster, but on the other they are trying to use and build upon what mythology he has like it or not. Guess its just going to come down to execution for me. Also it is coming after a time where they threw everything away and had him cry to his readers about how lame he was, yet did nothing better. And given the reception of that i get the logic of now going the other way. 

And as to Al leavening him his fortune. To be fair last time he saw him he was living on the streets.




> Future State Nightwing Preview is out: https://twitter.com/wes_greer/status...73435419385859


This book doesn't even need words. Even with that ugly suit Nicola Scott just know how to make him look cool.

----------


## Frontier

> It's definitely not compared to what we've recently had, but still seems like same old Batman-lite crap that he's been stuck with since the 2000s.


I'm not expecting Batman-lite from Taylor. Maybe All-New Wolverine-lite. 



> Future State Nightwing Preview is out: https://twitter.com/wes_greer/status...73435419385859


Looking cool  :Smile: .

----------


## Ascended

> I'm not expecting Batman-lite from Taylor. Maybe All-New Wolverine-lite.


Yeah, I think I agree. 

But really it's foolish as hell for us to act like we know more than we do about this book. For all we know, the first few issues take place in Bludhaven and the next arc kicks off a whirlwind adventure around the globe. This title could be more like Percy's motorcycle death race issues than a Bat-worshiping, poor imitation of Dixon. Or it could be more like DCeased, or whatever the hell. Let's not act like this book can only possibly be this one thing simply because it's kicking off with some classic elements of Dick's modern history. 

And given that this is a reset and the "real" return of Nightwing (I write off the end of Jurgens' run as Ric epilogue) we probably should have expected the rebuilding to involve these things. They're modern staples.  

And what's the worst case scenario? The book *is* Bat-lite? It'll still be well written Bat-lite, and right now I'll take a good Nightwing story that's a little "basic bitch" over a brave and controversial story that sucks. 

As far as worst case scenarios go, I feel like we're in a much better position than we were six months ago when cancellation seemed a realistic "worst case."

----------


## Dzetoun

> Im torn. This doesn't particularly sound like a lot of new tread, yet at the same time i complain that Nightwing has no mythology cause creators just ditch whatever the previous creators did. So on one hand its Bludhaven, Zucco, Blockbuster, but on the other they are trying to use and build upon what mythology he has like it or not. Guess its just going to come down to execution for me. Also it is coming after a time where they threw everything away and had him cry to his readers about how lame he was, yet did nothing better. And given the reception of that i get the logic of now going the other way. 
> 
> And as to Al leavening him his fortune. To be fair last time he saw him he was living on the streets.


I know what you mean. As I was discussing in private chat a while ago, the whole concept reads as "meh," but it also has the feel of a reset switch in a basement room in Burbank getting firmly thrown. One wonders if Taylor wasn't brought in with the brief that due to the cascade of problems over the last few years, _Nightwing_ as it was is pretty much a total write-off and he needs to start from basics and build the property up slowly and methodically. Bludhaven, Batgirl, Zucco, and Blockbuster are about as basic as you can get without going back to Haly's Circus and pixie boots. Maybe the model they are looking at is Johns and Van Sciver in _Green Lantern_, which proved that an IP/character that had been mishandled to the point of destruction could be successfully rebuilt using very classic components. I prefer the _Grayson_ approach myself, but what can we say? It just wasn't viable by the company's standards. At the very least, the new team deserves a chance to show what they can do. After all, when _Grayson_ was first proposed a lot of people were despondent to the point of physical illness. Remember the uproar that followed that first poster of Dick with a gun?

With regard to Alfred's fortune, that isn't hard to swallow. After all, the man worked extremely closely with billionaires for at least four decades. He must have picked up some useful investment tips along with the Christmas bonus of Wayne Enterprises stock. We also don't know the conditions under which it was left to Dick. Knowing Alfred, he may well have willed it to Master Grayson for a very specific purpose. Maybe he wanted Dick to take care of the rest of the family, for after all Alfred of all people was familiar with Bruce's obsessions and shortcomings. Maybe he wanted Dick to use the money to explore a different way of fighting crime than just wearing a mask and punching heads. Maybe Alfred's money, rather than Bruce's, is what supports Titans Academy. I am sure Alfred's fortune and it's use will be a major plot thread going forward, which is at least one new element of Nightwing's story.

----------


## BloodOps

Lets wait and see before we judge too harshly 

jeez

----------


## Wingin' It

I get that some are frustrated because this isn't the approach to Dick's solo you'd prefer, and your opinions are valid, but let's try and reserve judgment until the first issue is out. Unless you're one of the people huranging Tom Taylor on Twitter, then you can go sit in the naughty corner.

----------


## Wingin' It

> Future State Nightwing Preview is out: https://twitter.com/wes_greer/status...73435419385859


This looks really good as well! I'm loving the cover and interiors.

----------


## Restingvoice

I'm repeating what I said before that when you relaunch you need to start at the most familiar place as possible, even if it's not a new number one, because they're losing old fans by the Ric nonsense, they need to say "we're back, Nightwing's back in a place you know". That means it's either Gotham or Bludhaven and you can't build an A list Nightwing based in Gotham because Batman's there, so Bludhaven it is.

----------


## 9th.

> NIGHTWING #79
> 
> Written by TOM TAYLOR
> Art and cover by BRUNO REDONDO
> Card stock variant cover by by JAMAL CAMPBELL
> 
> Dick Grayson has inherited Alfred's fortune, a puppy, and a whole lot of questions. Who is Mayor Zucco, and what is her relation to the man who murdered Dick's parents? What sinister plans does *Blockbuster* have for BlÃ¼dhaven? What kind of dog food is best for a three-legged puppy? To answer these questions, Dick's going to need a little help from his friends -- past and present.
> 
> 32 pages, $3.99, (cadstock variant, $4.99), available on April 20.
> ...




Ugh, I'm trying to stay optimistic but man it's hard. I usually don't like prejudging but it's hard, I just don't want another mediocre run for NW.

----------


## Avi

I don't mind that Blockbuster is back as long as they use the Rebirth interpretation. The classic one has run its course. I wasn't a fan when Jurgens brought that version back in the annual. The cover makes me think they are keeping "Vegas Blüd", so I guess that's a good sign. Alfred's fortune being used for the TT Academy would be cool, but I think it's more likely that the money will be used in NW. 

And about the cover... Dixon Motors is pretty self-explanatory as are others (McDaniel's Burgers, Injustice, Mayor). Legends are probably Wolfman and Perez. Channel 4 is Ron Burgundy. The explosion in Badhnesia Sea is from Taylor & Redondo's Suicide Squad. That Inc. there might be too, but I can't remember. 
Story museum could be a nod to "everything is canon"?

Heartless might be a new villain? 

Any idea what "Drexel Foundation", "Heads on Ice" and "Shark Finn" might reference/mean?

----------


## Restingvoice

> Heartless might be a new villain? 
> 
> Any idea what "Drexel Foundation", "Heads on Ice" and "Shark Finn" might reference/mean?


Might as well, we already have a Nobody

The last shark in Bludhaven was Guppy and his dad but it can be just a pun of shark fin
Hats on Ice is likely a parody of Cats (The Musical) on Ice

----------


## Drako

> Might as well, we already have a Nobody
> 
> The last shark in Bludhaven was Guppy and his dad but it can be just a pun of shark fin
> Hats on Ice is likely a parody of Cats (The Musical) on Ice


Now i want Heartless and Nobody fighting Nightwing over some kind of key.  :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## L.H.

> Yeah, I think I agree. 
> 
> But really it's foolish as hell for us to act like we know more than we do about this book. For all we know, the first few issues take place in Bludhaven and the next arc kicks off a whirlwind adventure around the globe. This title could be more like Percy's motorcycle death race issues than a Bat-worshiping, poor imitation of Dixon. Or it could be more like DCeased, or whatever the hell. Let's not act like this book can only possibly be this one thing simply because it's kicking off with some classic elements of Dick's modern history. 
> 
> And given that this is a reset and the "real" return of Nightwing (I write off the end of Jurgens' run as Ric epilogue) we probably should have expected the rebuilding to involve these things. They're modern staples.  
> 
> And what's the worst case scenario? The book *is* Bat-lite? It'll still be well written Bat-lite, and right now I'll take a good Nightwing story that's a little "basic bitch" over a brave and controversial story that sucks. 
> 
> As far as worst case scenarios go, I feel like we're in a much better position than we were six months ago when cancellation seemed a realistic "worst case."


I totally agree. 
And I think that Dick also needs a good supporting cast, and It will be a shame to forget all the characters we had in Bludhaven. I mean: Amy, Svodoba, Guppy, Clancy, and all the others are characters that can give us that kind of supporting cast.

----------


## Drako

Looks like Heartless really is a new villain or something.




> Wait a minute...
> Zoom in. Zoom in. 
> ENHANCE.
> #Nightwing #79





https://twitter.com/TomTaylorMade/st...50198841946126

Oh, and the cover has some tributes to Marv Wolfman, George Perez, Chuck Dixon and Scott McDaniels.

https://www.instagram.com/p/CKG-N15Bxd9/

----------


## Frontier

Dick reaching out for Barbara's hands while swinging through the sky does remind me of their trapeze date.

----------


## Drako

https://twitter.com/AConstantWords/s...131200/photo/1

----------


## KrustyKid

> https://twitter.com/AConstantWords/s...131200/photo/1


That's a nice shot

----------


## AmiMizuno

So wait. Bludhaven is generally in the same state as Gotham but would it be better for it to be in another state further away but close

----------


## Drako

Nightwing by Serg Acuña

----------


## Frontier

> Nightwing by Serg Acuña


Gorgeous  :Big Grin: .

----------


## Wingin' It

> Nightwing by Serg Acuña


This slaps

----------


## Vordan

> I know what you mean. As I was discussing in private chat a while ago, the whole concept reads as "meh," but it also has the feel of a reset switch in a basement room in Burbank getting firmly thrown. One wonders if Taylor wasn't brought in with the brief that due to the cascade of problems over the last few years, _Nightwing_ as it was is pretty much a total write-off and he needs to start from basics and build the property up slowly and methodically. Bludhaven, Batgirl, Zucco, and Blockbuster are about as basic as you can get without going back to Haly's Circus and pixie boots. Maybe the model they are looking at is Johns and Van Sciver in _Green Lantern_, which proved that an IP/character that had been mishandled to the point of destruction could be successfully rebuilt using very classic components. I prefer the _Grayson_ approach myself, but what can we say? It just wasn't viable by the company's standards.


DC’s “standards” can kiss my ass, they let that Ric garbage go on longer than they did Grayson! The **** kind of “standards” allow that? Didio just hated Dick and wanted him gone.



> At the very least, the new team deserves a chance to show what they can do. After all, when _Grayson_ was first proposed a lot of people were despondent to the point of physical illness. Remember the uproar that followed that first poster of Dick with a gun?


That is a fair argument. That said it’s Taylor, so I already know what to expect honestly, it’s why I wasn’t too enthusiastic about him getting the book. Still trying the first arc though. But starting off with Blockbuster isn’t the best first step, especially since Taylor is terrible at writing villains outside of the Bat Rogues. He couldn’t even get the basic core of Lex Luthor right in DCeased, and his Marvel villains are pretty meh. He can only do either laughably evil bad guys with no nuance (Joker, Injustice Superman & WW) or “sweet cinnamon rolls uwu” who get redeemed (Harley). He can’t do anything else, so I wouldn’t hold much hope he’s going to be the one to really make Nightwing’s Rogues Gallery a force to be reckoned with.



> So wait. Bludhaven is generally in the same state as Gotham but would it be better for it to be in another state further away but close


I’d make it a West Coast city, or the Las Vegas analogue Seeley did. That “sunshine and serial killers” vibe meshes well with Dick the same way the East Coast “gritty noir” feel of Gotham suits Bruce.

----------


## Avi

Just read Future State and, damn, to finally read something that feels like an actual Dick Grayson story is so refreshing. And he was even allowed to be competent! I will never be a fan of the costume but that doesn't change that Scott is a pro so the art was still good.

Now all that's missing are *spoilers:*
some puns
*end of spoilers* because it would be a shame if Constant didn't get to write some for Dick.

----------


## WonderNight

I was just reading another thread about the justice league being like analogs for the greek pantheon. So who do you guys believe dicks Greek god analog would be?

----------


## John Venus

Eros obviously.

----------


## HsssH

Why was Badou banned?

Anyway, I was initially very positive about the announcement but all the new information that we are getting is not very inspiring. Maybe the inheritance will at least save us from Dick working a day job?

----------


## Restingvoice

> I was just reading another thread about the justice league being like analogs for the greek pantheon. So who do you guys believe dicks Greek god analog would be?





> Eros obviously.


Mgh. I don't know any Greek mythological big bro that doesn't screw over his family, so I guess we'll go with love, sex, and patron to the gay fandom ^^




> Why was Badou banned?
> 
> Anyway, I was initially very positive about the announcement but all the new information that we are getting is not very inspiring. Maybe the inheritance will at least save us from Dick working a day job?


Probably spoke too bad about Taylor... I think one of his post was deleted and I think the previous ban was also about a creator... forget who... *snap* Jurgens!

----------


## Drako

> Just read Future State and, damn, to finally read something that feels like an actual Dick Grayson story is so refreshing. And he was even allowed to be competent! I will never be a fan of the costume but that doesn't change that Scott is a pro so the art was still good.
> 
> Now all that's missing are *spoilers:*
> some puns
> *end of spoilers* because it would be a shame if Constant didn't get to write some for Dick.


I liked a lot too. It's been a while since he was shown to be this competent.

Oh, and he was in the Batgirls back-up of The Next Batman #2.
Pretty cool to see him as the leader of the Resistance.

But it's kinda difficult to pinpoint where each story is the timeline of the Bat books.

*spoilers:*
In Nightwing we see Dick talking with Babs, in the Batgirls stories she is a prisioner. In Robin Eternal Tim has no idea that Dick is out there fighting and is working with Spoiler, who was also in a prision with Cassie in Batgirls. But Spoiler knows about Dick being the leader of the Resistance.
*end of spoilers*

----------


## WonderNight

> Eros obviously.


Which god is that?

----------


## John Venus

> Which god is that?


Eros is the Greek God of love and sex. His roman equivalent is Cupid.

----------


## Rac7d*

> Eros obviously.


Diarmuid Ua Duibhne

----------


## John Venus

That's not Greek.

----------


## WonderNight

> Eros is the Greek God of love and sex. His roman equivalent is Cupid.


Ok yeah that's fits.

----------


## Frontier

> I liked a lot too. It's been a while since he was shown to be this competent.
> 
> Oh, and he was in the Batgirls back-up of The Next Batman #2.
> Pretty cool to see him as the leader of the Resistance.
> 
> But it's kinda difficult to pinpoint where each story is the timeline of the Bat books.
> 
> *spoilers:*
> In Nightwing we see Dick talking with Babs, in the Batgirls stories she is a prisioner. In Robin Eternal Tim has no idea that Dick is out there fighting and is working with Spoiler, who was also in a prision with Cassie in Batgirls. But Spoiler knows about Dick being the leader of the Resistance.
> *end of spoilers*


*spoilers:*
I knew Babs was the prisoner the Batgirls were trying to break out...
*end of spoilers*

----------


## WonderNight

> Why was Badou banned?
> 
> Anyway, I was initially very positive about the announcement but all the new information that we are getting is not very inspiring. Maybe the inheritance will at least save us from Dick working a day job?


Taylor should have dick be an erotic dancer just for Twitter.

----------


## Rakiduam

> Taylor should have dick be an erotic dancer just for Twitter.


Oh no! objectification!

----------


## Rac7d*

> Taylor should have dick be an erotic dancer just for Twitter.


Been their done that

----------


## Drako

> Been their done that


Yeah, Sam Humphries did a page of him dancing in a club.

Interview with the Future State team.

http://www.multiversitycomics.com/in...ing-interview/

----------


## WonderNight

Oh i know! Just some funny twitter outrage for a good laugh.

----------


## Drako

Nightwing WIP by Bruno Redondo.


https://www.instagram.com/p/CKMy32NhJwt/

----------


## Frontier

> Nightwing WIP by Bruno Redondo.
> 
> 
> https://www.instagram.com/p/CKMy32NhJwt/


Uh oh. What's on the computer  :EEK!: ?

----------


## Drako

> Uh oh. What's on the computer ?


Maybe he is catching up with the previous issues of his book? Or worse, watching Bruce Timm's adaptation of "The Killing Joke". Blergh

----------


## Avi

> Uh oh. What's on the computer ?


Maybe Heartless is a very literal name? 




> Yeah, Sam Humphries did a page of him dancing in a club.
> 
> Interview with the Future State team.
> 
> http://www.multiversitycomics.com/in...ing-interview/


I think it's funny that Dick is always referenced as this guy that isn't expected to go dark or has never been dark before, yet a lot of the time that's exactly what happens. It gets mentioned in interviews often but now that both Sheridan and Constant talked about it in their interviews, I do have to roll my eyes a little. Still, Constant writes Dick well so far. I wouldn't mind if he were able to tell some more stories in the Future State setting.

----------


## WonderNight

> Maybe he is catching up with the previous issues of his book? Or worse, watching Bruce Timm's adaptation of "The Killing Joke". Blergh


He got his first glich in Cyberpunk.

----------


## Restingvoice

> Uh oh. What's on the computer ?


His sex tape leaked

----------


## WonderNight

He find out dan didio was fired

----------


## Godlike13

Did weird kink stuff as Ric.

----------


## Ascended

> I was just reading another thread about the justice league being like analogs for the greek pantheon. So who do you guys believe dicks Greek god analog would be?


Eros makes sense, but I'd throw Pan into the mix for the "laughing daredevil" facet of Nightwing. 

Within the Bat Cave, Dick's Greek analogue would likely be Apollo; prettiest of the pretty boys and bringer of light and music.

Past that.....been too long since I studied Greek mythology. By Norse standards I can see Dick being a Baldur stand-in, I guess. Kinda sorta.

----------


## Godlike13

> I liked a lot too. It's been a while since he was shown to be this competent.
> 
> Oh, and he was in the Batgirls back-up of The Next Batman #2.
> Pretty cool to see him as the leader of the Resistance.
> 
> But it's kinda difficult to pinpoint where each story is the timeline of the Bat books.
> 
> *spoilers:*
> In Nightwing we see Dick talking with Babs, in the Batgirls stories she is a prisioner. In Robin Eternal Tim has no idea that Dick is out there fighting and is working with Spoiler, who was also in a prision with Cassie in Batgirls. But Spoiler knows about Dick being the leader of the Resistance.
> *end of spoilers*


Ya, it was refreshing to see Dick not suck. I think Robin Eternal is just off on things.

----------


## Restingvoice

> Past that.....been too long since I studied Greek mythology. By Norse standards I can see Dick being a Baldur stand-in, I guess. Kinda sorta.


Popular and get shot for an event? Yeah I can see it

----------


## K. Jones

> Eros makes sense, but I'd throw Pan into the mix for the "laughing daredevil" facet of Nightwing. 
> 
> Within the Bat Cave, Dick's Greek analogue would likely be Apollo; prettiest of the pretty boys and bringer of light and music.
> 
> Past that.....been too long since I studied Greek mythology. By Norse standards I can see Dick being a Baldur stand-in, I guess. Kinda sorta.


Dick to me is 100% Theseus. I grant that the Greek Heroes aren't the Greek Pantheon.

----------


## prepmaster

This vid deserves to be reposted from the old appreciation thread. 


Batman's first son and long time crime fighting partner, first leader of the Teen Titans, the glue and heart of the Batfamily
If Bruce is considered to be the father then Dick is the big brother to Batfam members.

----------


## AmiMizuno

Could be who is actually still alive. I'm curious in the animated series Teen Titans. They live in Jump City. We know that the Main Titans are in New York City. Any idea of how to ever being Jump City in the comics?

----------


## Digifiend

I think Jump City is just a fictional place name they used to substitute the Titans base in the comics - which was in New York in New Teen Titans (and currently), and San Francisco in the comic that started at the same time as the cartoon.

----------


## Restingvoice

EroiAOJVoAAyCJT.jpg
Nicola's thumbnail

----------


## Frontier

> I think Jump City is just a fictional place name they used to substitute the Titans base in the comics - which was in New York in New Teen Titans (and currently), and San Francisco in the comic that started at the same time as the cartoon.


Yeah, the tie-in comic came up with it. It didn't come up in the cartoons until TTG!.

----------


## Restingvoice

Don't mind if they bring it to the comics, since I prefer original city than real world, since you can do whatever you want with it, but it will be a Titans city, not Nightwing

----------


## AtheistInRed

> He find out dan didio was fired


Lmfaooo

10chars

----------


## AmiMizuno

> Don't mind if they bring it to the comics, since I prefer original city than real world, since you can do whatever you want with it, but it will be a Titans city, not Nightwing


No I agree we should keep the Titans where they are. I'm just saying I like the idea That There is a Titans West, Titans East and maybe Jump City could be something of a Hall of Justice where they all come together. Or it could just be Titans Midwest

You guys think we will ever get that Nightwing animated series they would have done but cancelled

----------


## Restingvoice

Capullo's Endgame spread pencil
EsXpS2iW4AI_HH2.jpg
The fact that I post it here maybe a spoiler

----------


## Drako

> Capullo's Endgame spread pencil
> EsXpS2iW4AI_HH2.jpg
> The fact that I post it here maybe a spoiler


Do you have a link to see it bigger?

----------


## Restingvoice

> Do you have a link to see it bigger?


Yeah on Capullo's tweet

----------


## WonderNight

> You guys think we will ever get that Nightwing animated series they would have done but cancelled


No because nightwing doesn't have his own verse or niche. So there's nothing to push besides dick himself, so they would just put him in batman or titans.

There's no Nightverse like the Wonderverse or Flashverse ect. And there's no cool niche in the dcu that nightwing plays in like John Constantine magic or green lantern cosmic.

Nightwing needs more of his own verse and/or niche to sell him other than I'm Dick Grayson in a costume.

----------


## OWL45

> No because nightwing doesn't have his own verse or niche. So there's nothing to push besides dick himself, so they would just put him in batman or titans.
> 
> There's no Nightverse like the Wonderverse or Flashverse ect. And there's no cool niche in the dcu that nightwing plays in like John Constantine magic or green lantern cosmic.
> 
> Nightwing needs more of his own verse and/or niche to sell him other than I'm Dick Grayson in a costume.


I thought the spy angle was perfect. I was untapped potential and actually fit given his skill set. All they needed to do was put him back in the costume and continue with that universe. Done fans cried about it and they reverse course completely. Sad because it had tons of potential.

----------


## WonderNight

> I thought the spy angle was perfect. I was untapped potential and actually fit given his skill set. All they needed to do was put him back in the costume and continue with that universe. Done fans cried about it and they reverse course completely. Sad because it had tons of potential.


Tell me about it! Dick in that niche and corner was gold and all it needed was the nightwing id then it'd have been perfect for dick. One of my biggest fears is that another bat character gets that niche and corner and dick is left in the dust.

Taylor talking about nightwing becoming an A lister. Not as batmans subordinate he won't.

----------


## Avi

Agreed. Agent Nightwing would be great.
Taylor could hypothetically use his Revolutionaries to bring that angle back. With all of the spy organisations under Bendis' thumb and Midnighter a part of the Superman editorial, I sadly don't see the Grayson characters return to Dick's orbit.

----------


## Restingvoice

So let's talk about Agent Nightwing in details. I may miss the first few times we talk about this so I wanna do it again. What kind of agency?
Government?
Private?
Self-employed/Freelance?

----------


## Wingin' It

> So let's talk about Agent Nightwing in details. I may miss the first few times we talk about this so I wanna do it again. What kind of agency?
> Government?
> Private?
> Self-employed/Freelance?


The last option is the only one that makes sense to me.

----------


## Restingvoice

Next, what is the agent-ing about? 

Spyral's concept is we're protecting the secrets that protect the world
Outsiders are taking care of jobs too dark for the Justice League
Suicide Squad is disposable criminals doing the government's dirty job

----------


## WonderNight

> So let's talk about Agent Nightwing in details. I may miss the first few times we talk about this so I wanna do it again. What kind of agency?
> Government?
> Private?
> Self-employed/Freelance?


Agent nightwing has tons of potential.

1) nightwing can have his own small strike team with charaters like Huntress, Midnighter, Tiger, silencer, nemesis etc to pick form. They go after the global court of owls.

2) nightwing could go on one man covert ops league missions. Someone what's steal a artifact to break into themyscira? Send nightwing. 

3) nightwing and taila? Friend or foe duo? Against leviathan.

4) Shut down global meta human trafficking.

5) Nightwing meets mission impossible with the new checkmate?

Agent nightwing is batman+ not batman lite. The global batman! I really recommend if you haven't seen the first half of YJ.Outsiders go see how nightwing is used as far as missions go. Or imagine grayson but dick as nightwing and spyral as the JL or nightwing own covert team.

----------


## Ascended

> I sadly don't see the Grayson characters return to Dick's orbit.


Some of them probably could. Other than the occasional cameo or minor appearance I don't think anyone is doing much with Tiger or Huntress, and I don't think Webb-Kane has shown up at all? And there's the skull girls, who haven't appeared either. I mean, none of them are pulling readers like Midnighter would, but I don't think everyone from Grayson is off limits? 

But if you're looking to use a familiar face or two, there's an army of Titans who're in limbo and, with a little adjusting, would fit a "secret agent" narrative. There's un-related characters everyone's forgotten about like Iron Munroe or Sarge Steel, who need a home and have a fitting background. There's members of Batman Inc that aren't doing much at all, and they'd obviously transition into a spy story easily. Hell there's likely an extra Bat sidekick floating around that Dick could borrow for a couple years. What's Bette up to these days? 

Bendis *had* control all the spy stuff but does that even apply anymore? Is that Leviathan sequel still happening? And even if Bendis is still gonna tackle and re-define this corner of DC (I hope he does, I think he'll introduce a solid foundation for it) that doesn't mean Taylor (or whoever writes Nightwing into this hypothetical situation) can't do mission impossible/007/secret agent stuff too. Dick doesn't have to be tied to those other groups in order to delve into the spy genre.

----------


## Digifiend

Considering Bette's codename is Flamebird, it's surprising that she hasn't already been paired up with Dick! The Kryptonian Nightwing and Flamebird were a duo in Superman after all.

----------


## Batman Begins 2005

The chemistry between Dick Grayson's Batman and Damian Wayne's Robin was perfect. Miss that tandem. I LOVE Batman and Robin #1-16 by Grant Morrison.

----------


## Robanker

> The chemistry between Dick Grayson's Batman and Damian Wayne's Robin was perfect. Miss that tandem. I LOVE Batman and Robin #1-16 by Grant Morrison.


The first of two times I enjoyed reading Damian.

----------


## Drako

So, i'm reading All-New Wolverine by Tom Taylor while i wait for March. I don't read Marvel, the only character i really like from the publisher is Ben Reilly, and i particularly dislike Logan, but man... This book is really good! Laura is growing on me really fast, i can safely say that she is the second Marvel character that i like.

I read up to issue 16 in the weekend. I'm really enjoying. 
Laura is always badass, but is shown other sides of her too. Gabby have some of the same weirdness of a child soldier that Damian has, but she is really cute and fun. Their relationship is sometimes kinda like Dick and Bruce back in the day. They have a pet Wolverine, looks like Taylor will repeat this trope with Dick's dog, but if the dog is anything like Jonathan is going to be great.  

In one of the issues Logan said Laura was the only thing he did it right, reminded me of some speechs Bruce had about Dick.
The only critisim i have until now is that the art keep changing and the three artists the came after David lopez are not in his level (except for Marcio Takara) and he only did the first arc.  Hopefully Bruno Redondo is the only artist for the Nightwing book, or at least for the majority of issues.

Can't wait for Nightwing #78.

----------


## Batman Begins 2005

> The first of two times I enjoyed reading Damian.


Thank you. The other?

----------


## Batman Begins 2005

> So, i'm reading All-New Wolverine by Tom Taylor while i wait for March. I don't read Marvel, the only character i really like from the publisher is Ben Reilly, and i particularly dislike Logan, but man... This book is really good! Laura is growing on me really fast, i can safely say that she is the second Marvel character that i like.
> 
> I ready up to issue 16 in the weekend. I'm really enjoying. 
> Laura is always badass, but is shown other sides of her too. Gabby have some of the same weirdness of a child soldier that Damian has, but she is really cute and fun. Their relationship is sometimes kinda like Dick and Bruce back in the day. They have a pet Wolverine, looks like Taylor will repeat this trope with Dick's dog, but if the dog is anything like Jonathan is going to be great.  
> 
> In one of the issues Logan said Laura was the only thing he did it right, reminded me of some speechs Bruce had about Dick.
> The only critisim i have until now is that the art keep changing and the three artists the came after David lopez are not in his level (except for Marcio Takara) and he only did the first arc.  Hopefully Bruno Redondo is the only artist for the Nightwing book, or at least for the majority of issues.
> 
> Can't wait for Nightwing #78.


Read Batman Annual #3 and Friendly Neighbourhood Spider-Man #14 both by Tom Taylor. Brilliant.

----------


## Frontier

> So, i'm reading All-New Wolverine by Tom Taylor while i wait for March. I don't read Marvel, the only character i really like from the publisher is Ben Reilly, and i particularly dislike Logan, but man... This book is really good! Laura is growing on me really fast, i can safely say that she is the second Marvel character that i like.
> 
> I ready up to issue 16 in the weekend. I'm really enjoying. 
> Laura is always badass, but is shown other sides of her too. Gabby have some of the same weirdness of a child soldier that Damian has, but she is really cute and fun. Their relationship is sometimes kinda like Dick and Bruce back in the day. They have a pet Wolverine, looks like Taylor will repeat this trope with Dick's dog, but if the dog is anything like Jonathan is going to be great.  
> 
> In one of the issues Logan said Laura was the only thing he did it right, reminded me of some speechs Bruce had about Dick.
> The only critisim i have until now is that the art keep changing and the three artists the came after David lopez are not in his level (except for Marcio Takara) and he only did the first arc.  Hopefully Bruno Redondo is the only artist for the Nightwing book, or at least for the majority of issues.
> 
> Can't wait for Nightwing #78.


The only feel good Wolverine run in existence...

----------


## Drako

> Read Batman Annual #3 and Friendly Neighbourhood Spider-Man #14 both by Tom Taylor. Brilliant.


I'll take a look!

----------


## Godlike13

When Daken calls Gabby Honey Badger for the first time is one of my favorite scenes.

----------


## Batman Begins 2005

> I'll take a look!


Cheers. Hope you like as I do.

----------


## Rac7d*

Lady Vic will be appearing on Titans season 3
The Nightwing rouges are making moves this year

----------


## Rakiduam

> Lady Vic will be appearing on Titans season 3
> The Nightwing rouges are making moves this year


Between Lady Vic, The Scarecrow, Barbara and Bruce drama, and Jason's standar melodrama, I wonder where are they going to find time for the Titans in the Titans.

----------


## AmiMizuno

I'm curious Dick generally went to Public School yea?

----------


## Rac7d*

> I'm curious Dick generally went to Public School yea?


Sometimes 
School of the bat means making straight As

Sometimes he’s was shown going to private school

----------


## Frontier

> Between Lady Vic, The Scarecrow, Barbara and Bruce drama, and Jason's standar melodrama, I wonder where are they going to find time for the Titans in the Titans.


May as well just call it _Nightwing_ with his supporting castThe Titans.

----------


## John Venus

Like YJ, I wonder if this was originally meant to be a Nightwing show before they decided they might as well introduce the Titans.

----------


## Rac7d*

> Like YJ, I wonder if this was originally meant to be a Nightwing show before they decided they might as well introduce the Titans.


Actually kind of
The show was originally called blackbirds and was gonna feature raven and Oracle along with Nightwing

----------


## Rac7d*

https://www.comicbookmovie.com/tv/dc...9742#gs.rcy9ce

TNT'S previously announced 'Titans' may be getting a new name according to a report from SeasonZero.com. The show, which will feature a team of young adult heroes led by Nightwing (Dick Grayson), will now be titled 'Blackbirds.' Apart from Nightwing, the other previously reported characters are Barbara Gordon (who will not operate under the 'Oracle' codename), Raven/ Rachel Roth, Starfire/Koriand'r, and Hank Hall and Dawn Granger as Hawk and Dove respectively. 'Blackbirds' may refer to the many bird themed/ named characters in the show and may also serve as an indication that another of the version of Batman's sidekick Robin may feature.

----------


## Ascended

> May as well just call it _Nightwing_ with his supporting castThe Titans.


I would be perfectly fine with that.

Hell I'd subscribe to HBOMax to support it.

----------


## John Venus

> https://www.comicbookmovie.com/tv/dc...9742#gs.rcy9ce
> 
> TNT'S previously announced 'Titans' may be getting a new name according to a report from SeasonZero.com. The show, which will feature a team of young adult heroes led by Nightwing (Dick Grayson), will now be titled 'Blackbirds.' Apart from Nightwing, the other previously reported characters are Barbara Gordon (who will not operate under the 'Oracle' codename), Raven/ Rachel Roth, Starfire/Koriand'r, and Hank Hall and Dawn Granger as Hawk and Dove respectively. 'Blackbirds' may refer to the many bird themed/ named characters in the show and may also serve as an indication that another of the version of Batman's sidekick Robin may feature.


Why not just make a Birds of Prey show instead of this weird mash up they are doing?

----------


## Rac7d*

> Why not just make a Birds of Prey show instead of this weird mash up they are doing?


Because apparently a film was in the pipeline at the time and we saw how it went

----------


## Drako

> https://www.comicbookmovie.com/tv/dc...9742#gs.rcy9ce
> 
> TNT'S previously announced 'Titans' may be getting a new name according to a report from SeasonZero.com. The show, which will feature a team of young adult heroes led by Nightwing (Dick Grayson), will now be titled 'Blackbirds.' Apart from Nightwing, the other previously reported characters are Barbara Gordon (who will not operate under the 'Oracle' codename), Raven/ Rachel Roth, Starfire/Koriand'r, and Hank Hall and Dawn Granger as Hawk and Dove respectively. 'Blackbirds' may refer to the many bird themed/ named characters in the show and may also serve as an indication that another of the version of Batman's sidekick Robin may feature.


Im glad this didnt happen.

----------


## Avi

I hope Lady Vic will just be a tease and only appear in Season 4. Being a one-off would suck. It's going to be interesting how they'll adapt her costume.




> https://www.comicbookmovie.com/tv/dc...9742#gs.rcy9ce
> 
> TNT'S previously announced 'Titans' may be getting a new name according to a report from SeasonZero.com. The show, which will feature a team of young adult heroes led by Nightwing (Dick Grayson), will now be titled 'Blackbirds.' Apart from Nightwing, the other previously reported characters are Barbara Gordon (who will not operate under the 'Oracle' codename), Raven/ Rachel Roth, Starfire/Koriand'r, and Hank Hall and Dawn Granger as Hawk and Dove respectively. 'Blackbirds' may refer to the many bird themed/ named characters in the show and may also serve as an indication that another of the version of Batman's sidekick Robin may feature.


I remember reading that. I still don't like it and am glad we got what we got even if it has its problems. At this point, a Nightwing show would make sense. Or rather a Batfam show even if I would obviously prefer a Nightwing show. Let the Titans be about Titans.

----------


## Digifiend

> Because apparently a film was in the pipeline at the time and we saw how it went


And the not-picked-up Green Arrow and the Canaries show would've basically done a BOP set up too - an archer (Green Arrow instead of Huntress), two Black Canaries, and GA's half-brother as the team's version of Oracle.

----------


## Robanker

> Thank you. The other?


Super Sons. I'd normally joke about it being the time he died, but I'm feeling merciful in my old age.

----------


## Restingvoice

Nightwing Joker by McFarlane Toys
EsrbUR-W4AAQKTG.jpg
I'm guessing it's based on the Death of Family cover

----------


## Rac7d*

Finally finished the lost carnival 
It was so sweet.  I want another story of his

----------


## Sodam Yat

> The chemistry between Dick Grayson's Batman and Damian Wayne's Robin was perfect. Miss that tandem. I LOVE Batman and Robin #1-16 by Grant Morrison.


It was a good book indeed. I like how Grant Morrison built up their relationship in that book. Their relationship grew since then. It's also nice to see other writers acknowledging it from that point on.

----------


## Thirteen

Nicola Scott Nightwing A$$preciation.  
Sorry I missed this when it went up for auction/sale.
https://twitter.com/NicolaScottArt/s...06795763036162
https://www.cbr.com/nightwing-nicola...grayson-image/
_"So much action, so much intrigue, so much raw caboose!"_

----------


## Sodam Yat

My Nightwing omnibus (by Kyle Higgins) just came in today through mail! Does anyone know whether there's going to be more Nightwing omnibus coming in the future?

----------


## Avi

> Finally finished the lost carnival 
> It was so sweet.  I want another story of his


I do too. It was refreshing to read a Dick Grayson story without Bruce, especially an origin story, and I would love to see how his journey continues. Especially if it continues to be magical. Maybe Willow and he could meet Zatanna.  :Big Grin: 





> My Nightwing omnibus (by Kyle Higgins) just came in today through mail! Does anyone know whether there's going to be more Nightwing omnibus coming in the future?


Considering the Higgins Omnibus took so long, I would say no, but it probably depends on whether Higgins does as well as the Grayson Omnibus, and even then it's unlikely because Seeley's NW has been collected in three Deluxe Editions. That's really the only other run in the last years that warrants an Omnibus, imo.

----------


## Drako

So, inspired by another topic, i made what i think is a cool rogues gallery for Dick, mostly made with villains connected with him, but without deep ties with other franchises.



Saiko was a one-off villain that had connections with Dick by being his childhood friend from the Harley Circus. Is he cool like his name suggest he is? No! But he is here for ocasional fights scenes and to help others villains in some schemes.

I know some people around here don't like him, but Blockbuster is part of the Nightwing mithos alongside Bludhaven. And he can work as a mastermind, kingpin or brute type of villain.

Shrike is back with the Suicide Squad. It's fair to bring him to fight his original nemesis. And if he is doing good in the other books, it helps to boost up Dick fighting prowess.

I know Mr. Minos died. It's something that Seeley keep doing to his villains. But he could had transferred his conscience to another body or whatever. They don't show his face, so who cares? And he is also a character from Dick's time as Agent 37, and a good way to remined thoses times.

Lady Vic has been around the DC universe for quite some time, looks like she'll be fighting Damian in his upcoming book. If she is around, why not fight Nightwing sometimes?

So Deathwing is here more for the name than anything. Seeley version was a Dollotron, but Taylor could rework him to be another person or something. I thought of Tad, but he is lame asf.

Let's face it, Cobb is more of a Nightwing villain now than Batman's. So he has to be here.

Judge was another One-off villain created by Sam Humphries that i thought it could be cool to come back. He is more linked to the spiritual side of things, something that the other ones don't have.

Once again another villain that Seeley killed. But he is too cool to be dead forever. And he has ties to the Court of Owls, they could bring him back.

James Jr was "created" by Scott Snyder to act like a Joker for Dick, imo. But because of him being of the Gordon family, he became more of a Batgirl villain. Well, she is part of the Nightwing book now. So why not bring him together?

Remember the end of "The Bleeding Edge" arc? Me neither cause it didn't happen! It was cut short cause of the Ric Grayson mess. The concept was cool and it's worth to be explored again, except with less Dick hating tecnology for whatever reason.

And then Flamingo. I was looking for a villain for his Bat Era that wasn't completely absorbed by Bruce, so i choose him to represent the DickBat years. Not the most well developed of the bunch, but this could change right? And he kick ass.

What you guys think?

----------


## Rac7d*

> I do too. It was refreshing to read a Dick Grayson story without Bruce, especially an origin story, and I would love to see how his journey continues. Especially if it continues to be magical. Maybe Willow and he could meet Zatanna. 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Considering the Higgins Omnibus took so long, I would say no, but it probably depends on whether Higgins does as well as the Grayson Omnibus, and even then it's unlikely because Seeley's NW has been collected in three Deluxe Editions. That's really the only other run in the last years that warrants an Omnibus, imo.


Zatana is the same age as Bruce, only in YJ was she retconned to be apart of the younger team

----------


## Rac7d*

> So, inspired by another topic, i made what i think is a cool rogues gallery for Dick, mostly made with villains connected with him, but without deep ties with other franchises.
> 
> 
> 
> Saiko was a one-off villain that had connections with Dick by being his childhood friend from the Harley Circus. Is he cool like his name suggest he is? No! But he is here for ocasional fights scenes and to help others villains in some schemes.
> 
> I know some people around here don't like him, but Blockbuster is part of the Nightwing mithos alongside Bludhaven. And he can work as a mastermind, kingpin or brute type of villain.
> 
> Shrike is back with the Suicide Squad. It's fair to bring him to fight his original nemesis. And if he is doing good in the other books, it helps to boost up Dick fighting prowess.
> ...


Lady Vic will be in the upcoming season of Titans

----------


## Frontier

> So, inspired by another topic, i made what i think is a cool rogues gallery for Dick, mostly made with villains connected with him, but without deep ties with other franchises.
> 
> 
> 
> Saiko was a one-off villain that had connections with Dick by being his childhood friend from the Harley Circus. Is he cool like his name suggest he is? No! But he is here for ocasional fights scenes and to help others villains in some schemes.
> 
> I know some people around here don't like him, but Blockbuster is part of the Nightwing mithos alongside Bludhaven. And he can work as a mastermind, kingpin or brute type of villain.
> 
> Shrike is back with the Suicide Squad. It's fair to bring him to fight his original nemesis. And if he is doing good in the other books, it helps to boost up Dick fighting prowess.
> ...


I guess Torque was too much to throw in there?

----------


## HsssH

I didn't really understand why Seeley in the second half of his run started killing villains. Both Midas and Raptor were cool and, in my opinion, better than Blockbuster or many others on that list. But now if someone wants to use them they'll first have to create some stupid reason for why they actually weren't killed when they totally were.

----------


## Drako

> I guess Torque was too much to throw in there?


Nah, I'm on the side of the fans that still enjoy Dixon's run, but Torque and Nite-Wing are too much even for me. 

I also thought of Tarantula, but it would be a slippery slope choice with all the baggage she has with him.

----------


## Frontier

> I didn't really understand why Seeley in the second half of his run started killing villains. Both Midas and Raptor were cool and, in my opinion, better than Blockbuster or many others on that list. But now if someone wants to use them they'll first have to create some stupid reason for why they actually weren't killed when they totally were.


I guess it might be for the same reason he ended the Huntress relationship as quickly as he started it.

----------


## Avi

> So, inspired by another topic, i made what i think is a cool rogues gallery for Dick, mostly made with villains connected with him, but without deep ties with other franchises.
> 
> 
> 
> Saiko was a one-off villain that had connections with Dick by being his childhood friend from the Harley Circus. Is he cool like his name suggest he is? No! But he is here for ocasional fights scenes and to help others villains in some schemes.
> 
> I know some people around here don't like him, but Blockbuster is part of the Nightwing mithos alongside Bludhaven. And he can work as a mastermind, kingpin or brute type of villain.
> 
> Shrike is back with the Suicide Squad. It's fair to bring him to fight his original nemesis. And if he is doing good in the other books, it helps to boost up Dick fighting prowess.
> ...


It's a good list. I would love to see quite a few of them become mainstays. Also Tiger Shark, Bruce kinda absorbed him but not really. Maybe he has a chance?

Mr. Minos could be brought back fairly easily. He's basically an AI. Maybe Wyrm finds his back-up on the "Dark Net", lol. 





> Zatana is the same age as Bruce, only in YJ was she retconned to be apart of the younger team


Yeah, I know. She could be a mentor. Willow and Dick could learn to know her through showbiz. Not that Lost Carnival takes place in any universe that has been established beyond what is written inside it, so known characters could appear in any way the creator wants them to.

----------


## Ascended

I'd include Roxy Rocket and Double Dare, because this guy needs some more femme fatales in his rogues gallery. 

And the Bomb Squad (Electrocutioner and Plastique). 

And William Cobb (unless you're counting him as Talon).

And Deathstroke.

And HIVE (for the super spy fun). 

And a host of others, honestly. Made a whole list when me and Dropkick wrote that pitch/bible.

----------


## Drako

> I'd include Roxy Rocket and Double Dare, because this guy needs some more femme fatales in his rogues gallery. 
> 
> And the Bomb Squad (Electrocutioner and Plastique). 
> 
> And William Cobb (unless you're counting him as Talon).
> 
> And Deathstroke.
> 
> And HIVE (for the super spy fun). 
> ...


Yes, i choose Cobb as Talon, like i said in the post.
I didn't pick Deathstroke cause i wanted to focus more on the Nightwing brand, and Deathstroke should be considered a Titans Villain first and foremost, imo. 

Not that he couldn't pop up in the book now and then.

----------


## Claude

> I guess it might be for the same reason he ended the Huntress relationship as quickly as he started it.


Yeah, it's very sad - you get the sense from a couple of Seeley comments in the last couple of years on Twitter that he regards his Nightwing run as "compromised", and that he was a bit stung by some of the reception and how it turned out. So there are some very abrupt shifts and closing-offs there. I still remember just before Nightwing Rebirth was announced, he said that if it was up to him then him, King and Janin would have just stayed on Grayson for another couple of years....

That first Raptor arc is still excellent though. And I'd probably buy an omnibus if they put one out - with Nightwing Vs Hush as a capstone.

----------


## Restingvoice

> So, inspired by another topic, i made what i think is a cool rogues gallery for Dick, mostly made with villains connected with him, but without deep ties with other franchises.
> 
> 
> 
> Saiko was a one-off villain that had connections with Dick by being his childhood friend from the Harley Circus. Is he cool like his name suggest he is? No! But he is here for ocasional fights scenes and to help others villains in some schemes.
> 
> I know some people around here don't like him, but Blockbuster is part of the Nightwing mithos alongside Bludhaven. And he can work as a mastermind, kingpin or brute type of villain.
> 
> Shrike is back with the Suicide Squad. It's fair to bring him to fight his original nemesis. And if he is doing good in the other books, it helps to boost up Dick fighting prowess.
> ...


Cool. Do another one for his supporting cast?

----------


## Sodam Yat

> Considering the Higgins Omnibus took so long, I would say no, but it probably depends on whether Higgins does as well as the Grayson Omnibus, and even then it's unlikely because Seeley's NW has been collected in three Deluxe Editions. That's really the only other run in the last years that warrants an Omnibus, imo.


Ah ok. I'll just collect the three Delux Editions then. Thanks for the info.

----------


## Drako

> Cool. Do another one for his supporting cast?


Supporting cast i think is something he need to build from the ground up, since most characters serve a specific purpose that wouldn't translate well to the new run. But since we know Mayor Zucco is something that Taylor is doing, bringing back Sonya would be great.

Also, one little charater that i always tought it could be a new Sidekick for Dick is Jen, from Nightwing issue #28 and #29 by Higgins. She had her parents killed by  Zsasz and she knows his secret identity. After he saved her, Dick gave his mother bracelet to her. 

Jen would be his flamebird or something. Especially now with Babs on the book, she could be trained by them both.

----------


## Drako

Looks like our boy will make an appearance on Damian's book.



Also:




> not a flashback, but not a reunion also (at least for now)


https://twitter.com/GlebMelnikov8/st...05869924274182

----------


## Ascended

> Yes, i choose Cobb as Talon, like i said in the post.


Ah, I didn't catch that. Been a long day, sorry.

And I feel you on Slade; I feel like he shouldn't really be considered part of any one character's rogues gallery, but can and should pop up all over the place. If Slade belongs to any rogues gallery it's the Titans but I think he works just as well when going up against Dick solo, or Green Arrow, or Bruce, or whoever. But Dick and Slade definitely have a weird dynamic that's worth exploring instead of ignoring.  :Big Grin:

----------


## Digifiend

> James Jr was "created" by Scott Snyder to act like a Joker for Dick, imo. But because of him being of the Gordon family, he became more of a Batgirl villain. Well, she is part of the Nightwing book now. So why not bring him together?


Because he was killed off in Batgirl #49 last year.

----------


## Restingvoice

> Supporting cast i think is something he need to build from the ground up, since most characters serve a specific purpose that wouldn't translate well to the new run. But since we know Mayor Zucco is something that Taylor is doing, bringing back Sonya would be great.
> 
> Also, one little charater that i always tought it could be a new Sidekick for Dick is Jen, from Nightwing issue #28 and #29 by Higgins. She had her parents killed by  Zsasz and she knows his secret identity. After he saved her, Dick gave his mother bracelet to her. 
> 
> Jen would be his flamebird or something. Especially now with Babs on the book, she could be trained by them both.


Just for the lolz, how about Aunt Harriet Cooper? We haven't seen her interact with him as an adult right




> Looks like our boy will make an appearance on Damian's book.
> 
> 
> 
> Also:
> 
> https://twitter.com/GlebMelnikov8/st...05869924274182


Oh so this is farewell




> Because he was killed off in Batgirl #49 last year.


That's not a problem ^^

----------


## Drako

> Because he was killed off in Batgirl #49 last year.


Just like when he was killed off in Simone's Batgirl?

Nightwing #79 Variant by Jamal Campbell

----------


## Avi

The cover rocks!




> Supporting cast i think is something he need to build from the ground up, since most characters serve a specific purpose that wouldn't translate well to the new run. But since we know Mayor Zucco is something that Taylor is doing, bringing back Sonya would be great.
> 
> Also, one little charater that i always tought it could be a new Sidekick for Dick is Jen, from Nightwing issue #28 and #29 by Higgins. She had her parents killed by  Zsasz and she knows his secret identity. After he saved her, Dick gave his mother bracelet to her. 
> 
> Jen would be his flamebird or something. Especially now with Babs on the book, she could be trained by them both.


I would love to see her again. When Rebirth was announced, I hoped she would return. Technically Nightwing fell off the face of the Earth two times now. It wouldn't seem out of place to me if she decided to show up in Blüdhaven.




> Looks like our boy will make an appearance on Damian's book.


Goodbye, maybe? I'm just wishing for something heartfelt. It's been so long.

----------


## Drako

Lol Look you got a Hot Toys figure:



https://news.toyark.com/2021/02/02/b...ot-toys-416919

----------


## Hypo

A previously unpublished Nightwing story byCollin Kelly, Jackson Lanzing, Jorge Corona, Mat Lopes, and Carlos M. Mangual will be released as part of DC's new _Let Them Live!_ anthology.

----------


## Drako

> A previously unpublished Nightwing story byCollin Kelly, Jackson Lanzing, Jorge Corona, Mat Lopes, and Carlos M. Mangual will be released as part of DC's new _Let Them Live!_ anthology.


Oh, it's the team who did that one short homage of Game of Death with Nightwing climbing the floors to save Damian. I really liked that story.

https://www.weirdsciencedccomics.com...htwing-42.html

----------


## Frontier

> Lol Look you got a Hot Toys figure:
> 
> 
> 
> https://news.toyark.com/2021/02/02/b...ot-toys-416919


He looks younger here than he did in the actual movie.

----------


## Ascended

So that statue or action figure or whatever the hell it is....that's well made. A little *too* well made. Did anybody ask for this? Like, where was the outcry for more reminders of those awful movies? 

I mean, the actor....what's his name? Probably Chris something? He probably could've been a decent Dick Grayson in a better film, but this is one of the few Dick Grayson products where I'm instantly at "Nope, don't even want it."

----------


## Drako

> So that statue or action figure or whatever the hell it is....that's well made. A little *too* well made. Did anybody ask for this? Like, where was the outcry for more reminders of those awful movies? 
> 
> I mean, the actor....what's his name? Probably Chris something? He probably could've been a decent Dick Grayson in a better film, but this is one of the few Dick Grayson products where I'm instantly at "Nope, don't even want it."


Hot toys are very popular and will probably sell a ton. If they made this version in the future, i would probably try to buy it.

----------


## Vordan

> So, inspired by another topic, i made what i think is a cool rogues gallery for Dick, mostly made with villains connected with him, but without deep ties with other franchises.
> 
> 
> 
> Saiko was a one-off villain that had connections with Dick by being his childhood friend from the Harley Circus. Is he cool like his name suggest he is? No! But he is here for ocasional fights scenes and to help others villains in some schemes.
> 
> I know some people around here don't like him, but Blockbuster is part of the Nightwing mithos alongside Bludhaven. And he can work as a mastermind, kingpin or brute type of villain.
> 
> Shrike is back with the Suicide Squad. It's fair to bring him to fight his original nemesis. And if he is doing good in the other books, it helps to boost up Dick fighting prowess.
> ...


Solid list. I too am hoping for the return of Minos and Raptor, love both of those guys. *Really* love the idea of Flamingo returning, for a costume standpoint hes a fantastic foil to Dick. Nightwing is a bright bombastic circus kid who fights crime, going up against a bright flamboyant criminal. He could be Dicks Bane, his Shadow Archetype but theyd need to cure his brain damage when he came back so he can have more of a personality to play off of.

----------


## Restingvoice

> Lol Look you got a Hot Toys figure:
> 
> 
> 
> https://news.toyark.com/2021/02/02/b...ot-toys-416919


Wow I never notice the codpiece is THAT big
Thank frick the movie was mainly dark
I thought the nipples is just funny, but that thing is gay porn now




> So that statue or action figure or whatever the hell it is....that's well made. A little *too* well made. Did anybody ask for this? Like, where was the outcry for more reminders of those awful movies? 
> 
> I mean, the actor....what's his name? Probably Chris something? He probably could've been a decent Dick Grayson in a better film, but this is one of the few Dick Grayson products where I'm instantly at "Nope, don't even want it."


Chris O'Donnell
He's a lot of 90s gay boys' awakening apparently
Ah
Do you think they notice the sales for Kotobukiya Bishonen Nightwing and decided... you know what the other untapped market is?

----------


## Avi

> [...]
> Chris O'Donnell
> He's a lot of 90s gay boys' awakening apparently
> Ah
> Do you think they notice the sales for Kotobukiya Bishonen Nightwing and decided... you know what the other untapped market is?


Well, I'd say it took them long enough to notice that untapped market. xD Let em have it.


A little background info about Nightwing's upcoming Let Them Live! Issue:
https://twitter.com/JacksonLanzing/s...14669566685186

Originally pitched as a GRAYSON one-shot, "Freefall" is 20 pages of Dick falling from near earth orbit while fighting gnostic cyborgs.It was the first one-shot we ever wrote at @DCComics, right after BATMAN & ROBIN ETERNAL.It was the story that got us working on GRAYSON.
EtQEtvDVcAAEruV.jpg

----------


## Restingvoice

> Well, I'd say it took them long enough to notice that untapped market. xD Let em have it.
> 
> 
> A little background info about Nightwing's upcoming Let Them Live! Issue:
> https://twitter.com/JacksonLanzing/s...14669566685186
> 
> Originally pitched as a GRAYSON one-shot, "Freefall" is 20 pages of Dick falling from near earth orbit while fighting gnostic cyborgs.It was the first one-shot we ever wrote at @DCComics, right after BATMAN & ROBIN ETERNAL.It was the story that got us working on GRAYSON.
> EtQEtvDVcAAEruV.jpg


Of course, he's freaking fighting while free-falling from orbit

----------


## Godlike13

> Just like when he was killed off in Simone's Batgirl?
> 
> Nightwing #79 Variant by Jamal Campbell


This is hilarious. I feel spiritually he is suppose to be naked or something.




> Well, I'd say it took them long enough to notice that untapped market. xD Let em have it.
> 
> 
> A little background info about Nightwing's upcoming Let Them Live! Issue:
> https://twitter.com/JacksonLanzing/s...14669566685186
> 
> Originally pitched as a GRAYSON one-shot, "Freefall" is 20 pages of Dick falling from near earth orbit while fighting gnostic cyborgs.It was the first one-shot we ever wrote at @DCComics, right after BATMAN & ROBIN ETERNAL.It was the story that got us working on GRAYSON.
> EtQEtvDVcAAEruV.jpg


That sounds like a pretty cool idea for a story.

----------


## Frontier

> Well, I'd say it took them long enough to notice that untapped market. xD Let em have it.
> 
> 
> A little background info about Nightwing's upcoming Let Them Live! Issue:
> https://twitter.com/JacksonLanzing/s...14669566685186
> 
> Originally pitched as a GRAYSON one-shot, "Freefall" is 20 pages of Dick falling from near earth orbit while fighting gnostic cyborgs.It was the first one-shot we ever wrote at @DCComics, right after BATMAN & ROBIN ETERNAL.It was the story that got us working on GRAYSON.
> Attachment 105626


Is that Azrael?

----------


## Ascended

> [*]Originally pitched as a GRAYSON one-shot, "Freefall" is 20 pages of Dick falling from near earth orbit while fighting gnostic cyborgs.


THIS is the sh*t I want to be reading in Nightwing.

The odds of me getting this Let Them Live thing just went up by a whole lot.

----------


## Pohzee

That cover is the coolest thing ever. That issue description also sounds like the coolest thing ever. I'm not sure how to reconcile these two irrefutably true facts.

----------


## WonderNight

> THIS is the sh*t I want to be reading in Nightwing.
> 
> The odds of me getting this Let Them Live thing just went up by a whole lot.


This is what Nightwing should be, The Global Batman! Let jason, tim, jace etc do the street city thing.

----------


## HsssH

> Oh, it's the team who did that one short homage of Game of Death with Nightwing climbing the floors to save Damian. I really liked that story.
> 
> https://www.weirdsciencedccomics.com...htwing-42.html


Never got around reading stories collected in Untouchable trade. Is it worth picking it up or only 42th issue is good?

----------


## Drako

> Never got around reading stories collected in Untouchable trade. Is it worth picking it up or only 42th issue is good?


To me the Judge arc by Sam Humphries is worth reading. And the two one-shots after are good too, specially issue 42.

i bought all the TPBs here before he became Ric and i don't regret it. I intend keep buying when Tom Taylor's run start to be collect around here.

----------


## Murrocko

> So, inspired by another topic, i made what i think is a cool rogues gallery for Dick, mostly made with villains connected with him, but without deep ties with other franchises.
> 
> 
> 
> Saiko was a one-off villain that had connections with Dick by being his childhood friend from the Harley Circus. Is he cool like his name suggest he is? No! But he is here for ocasional fights scenes and to help others villains in some schemes.
> 
> I know some people around here don't like him, but Blockbuster is part of the Nightwing mithos alongside Bludhaven. And he can work as a mastermind, kingpin or brute type of villain.
> 
> Shrike is back with the Suicide Squad. It's fair to bring him to fight his original nemesis. And if he is doing good in the other books, it helps to boost up Dick fighting prowess.
> ...


Maaaannnn, I'd love for Nightwing to have a truly established rouges gallery as opposed to just a never ending one and done for the arc.

I'd also bring back Tiger Shark and The Dealer

----------


## Murrocko

I'd also love to see the return of Bridget Clancy, Sonia Zucco, and Amy Rohrbach as supporting characters

----------


## John Venus

One at a time or all at once?

----------


## Rac7d*

Blockbuster is back

----------


## Drako

> Sneak peek. I am so ridiculously happy with our 1st Nightwing issue. 
> @Bruno_Redondo_F  & @fxstudiocolor  are making something stunning, & writing a new start for one of the best heroes in the world is a dream. 
> Issue #78 - March. #WhoIsHeartless? @thedcnation

----------


## dropkickjake

I can't help it. I'm excited and hopeful for #78. It doesn't need to be what I would do. It just needs to be good. That sneak peek page looks pretty gorgeous, and gives me some great classic super hero vibes. I'm in.

The falling from orbit and fighting issue? Yes. Thats gold. I want that.

And on the villain front, I do love that list that was posted. I am partial to adding the Dealer and Tiger Shark as well. And, a big one, Professor Pyg. Any villain created for Dick, whether he was Grayson, Batman, Robin, or Nightwing should be on the table. Also, I always wished that they had combiend  the characters of Saiko and Raya. I think that Saiko would have had a much better punch if it were Dick's circus crush.

----------


## Rac7d*

> 


That’s cop could be torque

----------


## Wingin' It

> 


Wow, the backdrop is just gorgeous.

----------


## Frontier

> 


So Desmond is Blockbuster all the time now like in the Dixon run?

----------


## Drako

> A bit WIP! Pencilling Dick and Babs for #Nightwing 
> @TomTaylorMade @jesswchen




https://twitter.com/Bruno_Redondo_F/...047938/photo/1

----------


## Frontier

> https://twitter.com/Bruno_Redondo_F/...047938/photo/1


We've seen so little of Batgirl that I honestly think they might genuinely be redesigning her suit and just don't want to spoil it yet.

----------


## Ascended

> So Desmond is Blockbuster all the time now like in the Dixon run?


That's the impression I've been getting. 

But it might just be me seeing what I want to see, I'd much prefer Blockbuster be Roland, and Roland only.

----------


## Pohzee

> We've seen so little of Batgirl that I honestly think they might genuinely be redesigning her suit and just don't want to spoil it yet.


God, I hope so.

----------


## Rakiduam

> We've seen so little of Batgirl that I honestly think they might genuinely be redesigning her suit and just don't want to spoil it yet.


That would be great for a Batgirl book, for a Nightwing book where Dick doesn't get a redesign? Not so much.

----------


## Murrocko

> We've seen so little of Batgirl that I honestly think they might genuinely be redesigning her suit and just don't want to spoil it yet.


Wish Nightwing would get a little update to the suit. Bring back the finger stripes, drop the forearm buckles. Some sort of utility belt would be nice to break up the all black a bit. Something a little like this with some tweaks (Not super into the armored shoulders or knee pad look) I think would be dope

----------


## Pohzee

The current suit is about as close to perfect as possible as it can get. There are no minor redesigns. The only thing I'd do is get rid of the blue swatches on the boots, but it's not worth a chance to get something horrible like the current Red Hood and Batgirl suits on the reroll.

----------


## WonderNight

> Maaaannnn, I'd love for Nightwing to have a truly established rouges gallery as opposed to just a never ending one and done for the arc.
> 
> I'd also bring back Tiger Shark and The Dealer


Solid list of villains.

I do miss dick and talia as friemeys, would love for them to be rivals.

----------


## Drako

DC Love is a Battlefield #1 Preview

https://comicbookdispatch.com/2021/0...eld-1-preview/

----------


## Rac7d*

> DC Love is a Battlefield #1 Preview
> 
> https://comicbookdispatch.com/2021/0...eld-1-preview/


People are not happy with it

----------


## Ascended

> People are not happy with it


Why? I mean, other than rehashing a conversation they've had a million times (which is what ex's with their type of history seem to do, at least in my experience) I don't see the problem. There's some call backs to both of their semi-recent history like Kori's solo (Mike *was* from her solo right?) and the comments about their NTT relationship sounds right to me; Dick did take control of things much of the time then, if memory serves me right.

Seems well written enough, even if it's not covering any new ground. And this is just a preview, we don't know how the tale will play out or end. I mean, it's Kori and Dick so my immediate assumption is it'll end in bed, but we don't know that (and I wouldn't necessarily have a problem if that's where it did end, since I ship these two over Babs).

----------


## Frontier

> That would be great for a Batgirl book, for a Nightwing book where Dick doesn't get a redesign? Not so much.


This basically is as close as we're getting to a Batgirl book. 



> Wish Nightwing would get a little update to the suit. Bring back the finger stripes, drop the forearm buckles. Some sort of utility belt would be nice to break up the all black a bit. Something a little like this with some tweaks (Not super into the armored shoulders or knee pad look) I think would be dope


The shoulder pads don't do it for me and I'd rather not have the blue lines on the arms. 



> DC Love is a Battlefield #1 Preview
> 
> https://comicbookdispatch.com/2021/0...eld-1-preview/


Okay, Kori being pretty free with information about past lovers here  :Stick Out Tongue: . 

I guess it does get to the heart of the problem with their relationship and how awkward it's been between them. I'm not looking forward to Babs inevitably coming up.

----------


## Rac7d*

> Why? I mean, other than rehashing a conversation they've had a million times (which is what ex's with their type of history seem to do, at least in my experience) I don't see the problem. There's some call backs to both of their semi-recent history like Kori's solo (Mike *was* from her solo right?) and the comments about their NTT relationship sounds right to me; Dick did take control of things much of the time then, if memory serves me right.
> 
> Seems well written enough, even if it's not covering any new ground. And this is just a preview, we don't know how the tale will play out or end. I mean, it's Kori and Dick so my immediate assumption is it'll end in bed, but we don't know that (and I wouldn't necessarily have a problem if that's where it did end, since I ship these two over Babs).


Personally I’ll wait till I read the. Whole thing 
But the comments I’ve seen on Twitter are not too favorable

----------


## Pohzee

Something we hadn't talked about on here really was the fact that Dick and Kory seemed to be a thing in the flashback during Teen Titans Future State, which was set during the Titans Academy era. So maybe the author will do something there? Redondo made it pretty clear they have no plans on using Starfire in his solo, but he didn't sound 100% on the DickBabs train either.

----------


## Frontier

> Something we hadn't talked about on here really was the fact that Dick and Kory seemed to be a thing in the flashback during Teen Titans Future State, which was set during the Titans Academy era. So maybe the author will do something there? Redondo made it pretty clear they have no plans on using Starfire in his solo, but he didn't sound 100% on the DickBabs train either.


It also hasn't been explicitly clear (as far as what I've read) whether Dick and Babs are together romantically in the book.

----------


## Rac7d*

> It also hasn't been explicitly clear (as far as what I've read) whether Dick and Babs are together romantically in the book.


It’s seems pretty obvious the book will be exploring that territory. The titans academy is present/past and future
So I doubt anything beyond a working relationship 

C0A1BAA3-E7D5-46BF-AAEC-D9B48ED66E1D.jpg

----------


## Robanker

> Why? I mean, other than rehashing a conversation they've had a million times (which is what ex's with their type of history seem to do, at least in my experience) I don't see the problem. There's some call backs to both of their semi-recent history like Kori's solo (Mike *was* from her solo right?) and the comments about their NTT relationship sounds right to me; Dick did take control of things much of the time then, if memory serves me right.
> 
> Seems well written enough, even if it's not covering any new ground. And this is just a preview, we don't know how the tale will play out or end. I mean, it's Kori and Dick so my immediate assumption is it'll end in bed, but we don't know that (and I wouldn't necessarily have a problem if that's where it did end, since I ship these two over Babs).


This right here. I just don't want this to read like Kori cheerleading DickBabs and instead be a story about Dick and Kori, you know?

----------


## Rakiduam

> This basically is as close as we're getting to a Batgirl book.


And that sucks for the Batgirls, but Nightwing is still supposed to be a Nightwing book, so why would it be about Barbara Gordon?

The last thing they need is let Barbara eat this book in the same way they are letting the batfamily eat the Titans.




> This right here. I just don't want this to read like Kori cheerleading DickBabs and instead be a story about Dick and Kori, you know?


There is no way back now, they are rewriting story and now only Barbara matters. It doesn't matter that while Dick and Kory were together Dick didn't eve remember Barbara existed or that they never ever had a thing, from now and on "they had an story" that trully, totally existed. Really!

----------


## Frontier

> And that sucks for the Batgirls, but Nightwing is still supposed to be a Nightwing book, so why would it be about Barbara Gordon?
> 
> The last thing they need is let Barbara eat this book in the same way they are letting the batfamily eat the Titans.


I kind of assumed Babs as his partner was getting co-lead status, or at least the nominal lead female character in the book.

----------


## Rakiduam

> I kind of assumed Babs as his partner was getting co-lead status, or at least the nominal lead female character in the book.


But Dick has never needed a co-lead or a lead female in his book, this arrangement would keep any independence from both of them, Barbara doesn't get her own book, and in the practice neither does Dick. 

Nevermind that Dick is going to have to be a moron so Barbara has something to do, and to make things even more stalled there you have Blockbuster.

The same problems Dick used to fix by himself, well now he needs help, how is that for an "A Lister"?

----------


## Frontier

> But Dick has never needed a co-lead or a lead female in his book, this arrangement would keep any independence from both of them, Barbara doesn't get her own book, and in the practice neither does Dick. 
> 
> Nevermind that Dick is going to have to be a moron so Barbara has something to do, and to make things even more stalled there you have Blockbuster.
> 
> The same problems Dick used to fix by himself, well now he needs help, how is that for an "A Lister"?


I think it's a different situation than we usually get in a Nightwing book that can work or not work depending on how Taylor handles it. I think an attempt at them as a duo (with Dick still being the main character) could be interesting to read. 

I don't think Babs serving as Oracle needs to necessarily dumb Dick down but, again, it depends on the execution.

----------


## Pohzee

Dick and Barbara have worked together since the 70's. It is nice to see her acknowledged as part of the supporting cast. I just hope to see them do it platonically. I'd like the Titans creative team to have the freedom to explore Dick's relationship with Starfire. It really sounds like the current creative team wants to keep Nightwing grounded and street level, no Flash friends or Starfire. But Dick's connections to other superheroes through the Titans is just as important too. I hope the two books act as equal halves that together show both of the best sides of Dick. Because otherwise I may be left a bit unsatisfied with a Dick isolated at the street level with no Starfire or Flash.

----------


## Rakiduam

> I think it's a different situation than we usually get in a Nightwing book that can work or not work depending on how Taylor handles it. I think an attempt at them as a duo (with Dick still being the main character) could be interesting to read. 
> 
> I don't think Babs serving as Oracle needs to necessarily dumb Dick down but, again, it depends on the execution.


We have had them as a duo repeatedly on crossovers, and it aways dumb down Dick.What do you think miss photographic memory can aport other way? There is nothing Barbara can do that Dick can't unless Barbara is there, then Dick can't make elemental deductions by himself.

It's the problem with the Bat family in general, they have made them utterly redundant.

----------


## Konja7

> We have had them as a duo repeatedly on crossovers, and it aways dumb down Dick.What do you think miss photographic memory can aport other way? There is nothing Barbara can do that Dick can't unless Barbara is there, then Dick can't make elemental deductions by himself.
> 
> It's the problem with the Bat family in general, they have made them utterly redundant.


As Barbara doesn't have a solo anymore, she could bring her own conflicts to the Nightwing book this time (like Stephanie in Tim/Robin book). 

That said, I agree it is pretty possible they will make Barbara the smart one in the book, which could negatively affect Dick.


PS: Honestly, I suspect DC feels sure to give Dick a solo, because Barbara/Batgirl will be there (and it seems the only place where she is Batgirl).

----------


## Rakiduam

> As Barbara doesn't have a solo anymore, she could bring her own conflicts to the Nightwing book this time (like Stephanie in Tim/Robin book).


Yeah, she could but again that wouldn't be good for Dick. Nothing about having Barbara in Nightwing is for Dick's benefit.




> PS: Honestly, I suspect DC feels sure to give Dick a solo, because Barbara/Batgirl will be there (and it seems the only place where she is Batgirl).


This makes not sense, they both have show to be competent seller on their own. By definition, having them both in the book is not a solo, so after two years as Rick Dick lost his solo.

----------


## Rac7d*

> I kind of assumed Babs as his partner was getting co-lead status, or at least the nominal lead female character in the book.


I expected it to be a mr and Mrs X type book

----------


## Rac7d*

> We have had them as a duo repeatedly on crossovers, and it aways dumb down Dick.What do you think miss photographic memory can aport other way? There is nothing Barbara can do that Dick can't unless Barbara is there, then Dick can't make elemental deductions by himself.
> 
> It's the problem with the Bat family in general, they have made them utterly redundant.


Tim and Bruce do that to him too
It’s not on her

You guys were not happy with the directions of Nightwing book before he got shot, they are doing something different lets give it a chance. Babs is a supporting character can’t be silenced, removed and has a strong report and team skills. I can’t see then why their is so much doubt in this project.

----------


## Rakiduam

> Tim and Bruce do that to him too. It’s not on her


Yes, that's true, *but they aren't in his book*




> You guys were not happy with the directions of Nightwing book before he got shot, they are doing something different lets give it a chance. Babs is a supporting character can’t be silenced, removed and has a strong report and team skills. I can’t see then why their is so much doubt in this project.


I was happy enough. It wasn't like with Grayson, that invited to comment and theorize, but fun enough to keep buying.  

They aren't doing anything different.C'mon, it's Zucco again, Barbra again, Blockbuster again, Gotham wanna be city again. The only new part is the dog, and it's only a dog.

Oh! and  instead of living of Bruce money he has Alfred's. Fantastic.

----------


## Rac7d*

> Yes, that's true, *but they aren't in his book*
> 
> 
> 
> I was happy enough. It wasn't like with Grayson, that invited to comment and theorize, but fun enough to keep buying.  
> 
> They aren't doing anything different.C'mon, it's Zucco again, Barbra again, Blockbuster again, Gotham wanna be city again. The only new part is the dog, and it's only a dog.
> 
> Oh! and  instead of living of Bruce money he has Alfred's. Fantastic.


Don’t underestimate the pooch

----------


## Pohzee

It makes sense for Barbara to be in Dick's supporting cast of characters. In fact, I wish writers were given more leeway to use other characters in their solos as supporting characters whether they have an ongoing series or not. It's ridiculous when Batman can't have a Robin because there's a Teen Titans book. Babs having a book or not shouldn't be the determining factor as to whether she's a supporting character or not.

I also firmly believe that you can have two characters interact without one taking away from the other. I don't think Dick or Barbara were dumbed down in their Batman Family teamups for example. Unless the two characters are Robins of course, then there's no room for more  :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## Pohzee

I do find the take that Kory being for when Dick was 19 and entirely in the past to be a bit ridiculous though. Like if Kory is Dick's college girlfriend, then Barbara is his high school crush. And I know which one to me would indicate more growth for a choice in long term partner.

----------


## John Venus

I doubt the writers will be able to resist the urge to explore Dick/Babs.   




> Its seems pretty obvious the book will be exploring that territory. The titans academy is present/past and future
> So I doubt anything beyond a working relationship 
> 
> Attachment 105795


Dick had a crush on her the same way a kid has a crush on her teacher.  All the Dick/Babs stuff had to retconned along with Barbara getting deaged to accommodate it and I'm talking pre-Nu52.  Dick/Kory may have been retconned away but it was still a relationship that grew organically, not at the expense of another relationship and didn't require retcons to work.  




> People are not happy with it


I'll wait and see how it goes.

----------


## Rac7d*

> I doubt the writers will be able to resist the urge to explore Dick/Babs.   
> 
> 
> 
> Dick had a crush on her the same way a kid has a crush on her teacher.  All the Dick/Babs stuff had to retconned along with Barbara getting deaged to accommodate it and I'm talking pre-Nu52.  Dick/Kory may have been retconned away but it was still a relationship that grew organically, not at the expense of another relationship and didn't require retcons to work.  
> 
> 
> 
> I'll wait and see how it goes.



And now many years later they rekindle their relationship both now older and matured and pursue something wonderful
It’s
Like legit how many romcoms on the classic tale

The only reason they have not taken the next step is because some big event puts things on pause or resets 
It’s the same reason why Nightwing has been unable to advance for the last ten years. Now we have Tom who promises to give it all and you guys aren’t happy. Lois doesn’t hold Superman back. Mera doesn’t eat up Aquaman. It can’t be worse then reading the fake Nightwings and ric. Where is the positivity guys.

----------


## WonderNight

> And now many years later they rekindle their relationship both now older and matured and pursue something wonderful
> It’s
> Like legit how many romcoms on the classic tale
> 
> The only reason they have not taken the next step is because some big event puts things on pause or resets 
> It’s the same reason why Nightwing has been unable to advance for the last ten years. Now we have Tom who promises to give it all and you guys aren’t happy. Lois doesn’t hold Superman back. Mera doesn’t eat up Aquaman. It can’t be worse then reading the fake Nightwings and ric. Where is the positivity guys.


Not everyone feels that street level, dickbabs, bat centered is the best most interesting thing for Nightwings character growth. Some like Nightwing more DCU centered.

----------


## Drako

> Not everyone feels that street level, dickbabs, bat centered is the best most interesting thing for Nightwings character growth. Some like Nightwing more DCU centered.


He'll be doing both in March.

----------


## Rac7d*

> Not everyone feels that street level, dickbabs, bat centered is the best most interesting thing for Nightwings character growth. Some like Nightwing more DCU centered.


The books are not gonna solve that. Nightwing is gonna have to transcend print media. It’s the only way, he has to be proven fiscally viable to DC that they will plug him into DCU adventures and crossovers.    

So make sure you support 
titans S3
Young Justice S4
Arkham Knights and let them know more Nightwing is what you want.

However for now this book seems to be the ground work to what could possibly be a Nightwing spin-off from titans
Dickbabs needs to be finalized, sealed and made official so when the Live  action Batgirl movies comes and it will be coming his inclusion is guaranteed in the way Lois Lane will always be in Superman film.  I means it when I say it’s all coming together now.

----------


## Claude

> But Dick has never needed a co-lead or a lead female in his book, this arrangement would keep any independence from both of them, Barbara doesn't get her own book, and in the practice neither does Dick. 
> 
> Nevermind that Dick is going to have to be a moron so Barbara has something to do


These are the exact same complaints that people raised about Helena in _Grayson_.

----------


## Drako

> The books are not gonna solve that. Nightwing is gonna have to transcend print media. It’s the only way, he has to be proven fiscally viable to DC that they will plug him into DCU adventures and crossovers.    
> 
> So make sure you support 
> titans S3
> Young Justice S4
> *Arkham Knights* and let them know more Nightwing is what you want.
> 
> However for now this book seems to be the ground work to what could possibly be a Nightwing spin-off from titans
> Dickbabs needs to be finalized, sealed and made official so when the Live  action Batgirl movies comes and it will be coming his inclusion is guaranteed in the way Lois Lane will always be in Superman film.  I means it when I say it’s all coming together now.


Gotham Knights.
Even though i played more with Nightwing in the challenge maps and his little "campaign" than any other character in Arkham Knight.

----------


## Jay11

> It makes sense for Barbara to be in Dick's supporting cast of characters. In fact, I wish writers were given more leeway to use other characters in their solos as supporting characters whether they have an ongoing series or not. It's ridiculous when Batman can't have a Robin because there's a Teen Titans book. Babs having a book or not shouldn't be the determining factor as to whether she's a supporting character or not.
> 
> I also firmly believe that you can have two characters interact without one taking away from the other. I don't think Dick or Barbara were dumbed down in their Batman Family teamups for example. Unless the two characters are Robins of course, then there's no room for more


Unfortunately, DC has never found the balance of having Dick and any other Batfam character in the same room without having to dumb Dick down so the other character looks good.
Dick asks Barbara for help in the arc before the 'nightmare known as Ric'  because he was too dumb to solve a mystery or understand technology by himself.  According to Tynion in Batman #100, Dick is so stupid he doesn't even know what his suit is made of, but of course Barbara does.  The more I hear of this Taylor run, the more I feel like these are the interactions we'll be seeing. 

Barbara has no need to be in this book. Dick doesn't need Barbara in this book. The only reason Taylor put Barbara in this book is to (a. Hook them up, despite the fact that half of the Nightwing fandom would rather never see them date again, and (b. Have somebody be the 'smart one' because Dick is just the dumb, fun, grown up Robin who, despite having been a master strategist and detective before Barbara was his co-lead, suddenly isn't anymore.

As for Dick having a supporting cast, how in the world is making a Batfam character a lead in his book separating him from Batman's shadow or allowing him to thrive on his own?  Why not try invest ing in interesting new characters instead of drudging up the same old boring relationship done in the same old way when it has never worked well for the character you're trying to 'make A-list'? 

I just went through two years of Ric, is it too much to ask that the  Nightwing book finally embraces his skills and what makes him unique, instead of using his book to prop other characters at his expense?

Sorry for the rant, I just have a bad feeling about this book😣

----------


## Rac7d*

> Gotham Knights.
> Even though i played more with Nightwing in the challenge maps and his little "campaign" than any other character in Arkham Knight.


Same here bro same here

----------


## Rac7d*

> Unfortunately, DC has never found the balance of having Dick and any other Batfam character in the same room without having to dumb Dick down so the other character looks good.
> Dick asks Barbara for help in the arc before the 'nightmare known as Ric'  because he was too dumb to solve a mystery or understand technology by himself.  According to Tynion in Batman #100, Dick is so stupid he doesn't even know what his suit is made of, but of course Barbara does.  The more I hear of this Taylor run, the more I feel like these are the interactions we'll be seeing. 
> 
> Barbara has no need to be in this book. Dick doesn't need Barbara in this book. The only reason Taylor put Barbara in this book is to (a. Hook them up, despite the fact that half of the Nightwing fandom would rather never see them date again, and (b. Have somebody be the 'smart one' because Dick is just the dumb, fun, grown up Robin who, despite having been a master strategist and detective before Barbara was his co-lead, suddenly isn't anymore.
> 
> As for Dick having a supporting cast, how in the world is making a Batfam character a lead in his book separating him from Batman's shadow or allowing him to thrive on his own?  Why not try invest ing in interesting new characters instead of drudging up the same old boring relationship done in the same old way when it has never worked well for the character you're trying to 'make A-list'? 
> 
> I just went through two years of Ric, is it too much to ask that the  Nightwing book finally embraces his skills and what makes him unique, instead of using his book to prop other characters at his expense?
> 
> Sorry for the rant, I just have a bad feeling about this book


That issue seems to be inescapable no matter the team up
Dick becomes the jock around most inner bat family members. Your right I don’t like it either then again I’m not fond of other being dumbed down when Robin/Nightwing is present among other heroes, (starfire has had it rough). 

I want to have faith in Tom Taylor that people can have specific specialized skill without dominating the role of brain or muscle, teamwork and respect was highlighted a lot in deceased. He has two people who have been in the business a long time with a good working history they can do this!

----------


## WonderNight

> And now many years later they rekindle their relationship both now older and matured and pursue something wonderful
> It’s
> Like legit how many romcoms on the classic tale
> 
> The only reason they have not taken the next step is because some big event puts things on pause or resets 
> It’s the same reason why Nightwing has been unable to advance for the last ten years. Now we have Tom who promises to give it all and you guys aren’t happy. Lois doesn’t hold Superman back. Mera doesn’t eat up Aquaman. It can’t be worse then reading the fake Nightwings and ric. Where is the positivity guys.


If dick marry's babs than dc should move him back to Gotham and stick his head right up batman's a$$ were it'll belong.

----------


## Frontier

> Unfortunately, DC has never found the balance of having Dick and any other Batfam character in the same room without having to dumb Dick down so the other character looks good.
> Dick asks Barbara for help in the arc before the 'nightmare known as Ric'  because he was too dumb to solve a mystery or understand technology by himself.  According to Tynion in Batman #100, Dick is so stupid he doesn't even know what his suit is made of, but of course Barbara does.  The more I hear of this Taylor run, the more I feel like these are the interactions we'll be seeing. 
> 
> Barbara has no need to be in this book. Dick doesn't need Barbara in this book. The only reason Taylor put Barbara in this book is to (a. Hook them up, despite the fact that half of the Nightwing fandom would rather never see them date again, and (b. Have somebody be the 'smart one' because Dick is just the dumb, fun, grown up Robin who, despite having been a master strategist and detective before Barbara was his co-lead, suddenly isn't anymore.
> 
> As for Dick having a supporting cast, how in the world is making a Batfam character a lead in his book separating him from Batman's shadow or allowing him to thrive on his own?  Why not try invest ing in interesting new characters instead of drudging up the same old boring relationship done in the same old way when it has never worked well for the character you're trying to 'make A-list'? 
> 
> I just went through two years of Ric, is it too much to ask that the  Nightwing book finally embraces his skills and what makes him unique, instead of using his book to prop other characters at his expense?
> 
> Sorry for the rant, I just have a bad feeling about this book


Well, I think saying half the fandom doesn't want them to ever date again might be a bit much, but I've seen no indication from Taylor that they'll be depicting Dick as the "dumb one."

----------


## Godlike13

You have to consider Dick’s current situation. This is post Ric now, and Dick is in need of general appeal. They went too far with Ric, that now the reaction is to go the other way. They are trying to sell a sense of general comfort to combat Ric being so rejected. Bringing back the general Nightwing and Batman stuff they threw away, mocked, and tried to convince readers not to like. Dick and Babs has regularly been a go to for general appeal. Blockbuster is textbook Nightwing, Zucco is old school Dick, etc, etc. I understand the logic and necessity of this right now, even if these aren’t my favorite things anymore. As a die hard they have me as a reader, it’s the general audience they need to try and get back. And general audiences don’t necessarily have the same views on these things as us die hards.

----------


## Claude

> Well, I think saying half the fandom doesn't want them to ever date again might be a bit much,


It also raises the question of what the other half want. I'm not a fan of the ship, but it's one of those irritating divides where DC have been in a holding pattern - wanting readers to be able to believe that Dick is always potentially Just On The Cusp of "making it work" with Barbara without wanting to go so far as to alienate people who like him with Starfire or single or with someone else.

So you have this weird mishmash where they're Meant To Be Together in Death Metal, and creepily Promise-Ringed to each other, without ever really having dated in any in-continuity book. 

So... Yeah. Dick and Barbara. Sh*t, or get off the pot. If DC want me to think they're A Thing, they should put some time and effort into convincing me. I'll let Taylor have his shot at that.

----------


## Dzetoun

> You have to consider Dick’s current situation. This is post Ric now, and Dick is in need of general appeal. They went too far with Ric, that now the reaction is to go the other way. They are trying to sell a sense of general comfort to combat Ric being so rejected. Bringing back the general Nightwing and Batman stuff they threw away, mocked, and tried to convince readers not to like. Dick and Babs has regularly been a go to for general appeal. Blockbuster is textbook Nightwing, Zucco is old school Dick, etc, etc. I understand the logic and necessity of this right now, even if these aren’t my favorite things anymore. As a die hard they have me as a reader, it’s the general audience they need to try and get back. And general audiences don’t necessarily have the same views on these things as us die hards.


I agree. Let’s approach this from Taylor’s hypothetical standpoint. He has been handed a property that has been pretty much driven into the ground. No recriminations, I think a lot of unfortunate things came together, but that’s where we are. What then to do? You could just make a write off of the past and strike out in a completely new direction, but that would be awfully dangerous, especially if all the reports of cutbacks at DC are accurate. The last time they did something like that was with _Grayson_ in 2014. Much as many of us liked that direction, it didn’t work out and DC is reportedly in worse shape now.

So, that means trying to find a solid foundation and building up methodically. What foundation? The rock solid one is pixie boots and Haly’s Circus, but that’s not going to happen without rebooting the entire universe. New Teen Titans? They are actually doing that, but it it is and always has been another book. Well, that leaves the three B’s - Bruce, Babs, and Bludhaven. We may be tired of that music, but at least the orchestra knows how to play it. Let’s see if Taylor can conduct some new themes.

----------


## Ascended

> You have to consider Dicks current situation. This is post Ric now, and Dick is in need of general appeal. They went too far with Ric, that now the reaction is to go the other way. They are trying to sell a sense of general comfort to combat Ric being so rejected. Bringing back the general Nightwing and Batman stuff they threw away, mocked, and tried to convince readers not to like. Dick and Babs has regularly been a go to for general appeal. Blockbuster is textbook Nightwing, Zucco is old school Dick, etc, etc. I understand the logic and necessity of this right now, even if these arent my favorite things anymore. As a die hard they have me as a reader, its the general audience they need to try and get back. And general audiences dont necessarily have the same views on these things as us die hards.





> I agree. Lets approach this from Taylors hypothetical standpoint.


I'm in agreement with both of you.

A brand new, fresh direction is a risk at the moment, given the sales Ric eventually fell to and the shape of DC in general. It's big risk big reward, but DC doesn't seem terribly interested in taking big risks right now, especially with IP's that have been on thin ice like Nightwing (which is DC's own doing, but regardless of blame that's the current situation). 

A safe, familiar launch using all the classic toys of the Dixon era might not be the exciting, new stuff many of us want to see, but it's unlikely to really upset us or drive us off the book either. It'll be solid and enjoyable even if it's not unique or the full-blown update many of us think is necessary for Dick to truly elevate to the A-list. The Grayson version of comfort food, as it were.

But it's possible that this isn't going to be Taylor's entire run or DC's whole plan. This could very well be just them rebuilding the foundation, and once things are feeling more stable we'll see Dick build things into something new, using the familiar foundation to jump from.

Or maybe Dick will still have his head shoved up Bruce's ass and will be doing nothing but more Bat-lite stuff. We won't know until the issues come out and we get an idea of where the story is ultimately headed. But it's way, way too early to say either way.

----------


## Wingin' It

> I agree. Let’s approach this from Taylor’s hypothetical standpoint. He has been handed a property that has been pretty much driven into the ground. No recriminations, I think a lot of unfortunate things came together, but that’s where we are. What then to do? You could just make a write off of the past and strike out in a completely new direction, but that would be awfully dangerous, especially if all the reports of cutbacks at DC are accurate. The last time they did something like that was with _Grayson_ in 2014. Much as many of us liked that direction, it didn’t work out and DC is reportedly in worse shape now.
> 
> So, that means trying to find a solid foundation and building up methodically. What foundation? The rock solid one is pixie boots and Haly’s Circus, but that’s not going to happen without rebooting the entire universe. New Teen Titans? They are actually doing that, but it it is and always has been another book. Well, that leaves the three B’s - Bruce, Babs, and Bludhaven. We may be tired of that music, but at least the orchestra knows how to play it. Let’s see if Taylor can conduct some new themes.


I agree; A lot of people are being quite negative about a book that hasn't even come out yet! Let's give Taylor and Redondo the benefit of the doubt, they're clearly passionate about the book they're working on. Dick is getting some effort put toward his solo, regardless if it's a direction some on here personally prefer. It's leagues better than what we've had for the past few years.

----------


## Rakiduam

> The books are not gonna solve that. Nightwing is gonna have to transcend print media. Its the only way, he has to be proven fiscally viable to DC that they will plug him into DCU adventures and crossovers.    
> 
> So make sure you support 
> titans S3
> Young Justice S4
> Arkham Knights and let them know more Nightwing is what you want.
> 
> However for now this book seems to be the ground work to what could possibly be a Nightwing spin-off from titans
> Dickbabs needs to be finalized, sealed and made official so when the Live  action Batgirl movies comes and it will be coming his inclusion is guaranteed in the way Lois Lane will always be in Superman film.  I means it when I say its all coming together now.


Just to be clear, you are saying that: if I play a bat family game where Dick is, again, just a part of a set, I get depressed weekly with Young Justice stream of pyrrhic victories, and watch Jason Todd's hissy fit in the bat family show formerly known as Titans, I may, some day, have the chance to see Dick as Barabra's boyfrined in a Batgirl movie? 

That's...a picture for shure, it goes to show the character is never going to be allowed to move on. None of them will, really.

I am not questioning Taylor good intentions, but not even all the enthusiasm in the world is going to make Dick a draw for general audiences when all they do is keep repeating the same elements that already failed to matter.

----------


## Jay11

> Well, I think saying half the fandom doesn't want them to ever date again might be a bit much, but I've seen no indication from Taylor that they'll be depicting Dick as the "dumb one."


 Maybe 49% then😜

But honestly, a large portion of Nightwing fans dislike or are indifferent to DickBabs and most of the general audience is more familiar with Dick Kory through the Teen Titans and TTGo cartoon, the DCAU movies, and live action Titans. Even the Injustice games reference Starfire and Dick's relationship over DickBabs. The Arkham games ,arguably the most successful general audience Batman media outside of movies, has BabsTim!  So DickBabs isn't the slam dunk fan favorite DC seems to think it is and I think more people would be less anxious about this run if Babs wasn't co-starring🤷

Honestly, it was after listening to Bruno Redondo's interview posted here last week, I got the impression that Barbara is being portrayed as the one with a good head on her shoulders while Dick is flighty and impulsive. Also, he needs her help solve whatever the big mystery is.

Imagine if Red Hood, or Tim Drake(whatever his codename is these days), or Batman had to call in Barbara to solve his mysteries in his own book because he couldn't handle it on his own. Wouldn't that make them seem much less intelligent and capable, seeing as they are all trained specifically as detectives?  Oh, and let's not forget she'll also appear as Batgirl, so apparently Dick can't even fight his own battles in his own book! 

I would feel much differently about Barbara's inclusion in the story if it were just her coming in with the occasional assist with tech support or upgrades. Or if see was a guest star appearing to give a fresh perspective on whatever events happen to be transpiring, but no. That's not the case. She is the permanent co-lead and the creative team has implicitly stated that her role in this series is to be the brain/love interest. Two roles DC often assigns her when it comes to Dick Grayson and never, ever, ever has either benefitted him as a character.

So yeah, I'm more skeptical than excited about  Taylor's plans for the character. Hope I'm wrong,though😐

----------


## Godlike13

Babs is a character that Dick’s doesn’t have to play the strait man to. Dick is established enough that his skills aren’t really in question, to the point where he’s abused as a measuring stick, because readers are already generally aware of his skills and what they are suppose to be. But really it’s not Dicks skills the make him stand out, detecting, fighting, flipping they all do this stuff and are good at it. It’s his personality that differentiates him. The Batman-lite, Boy Scout, strait man is the worse take on Dick. Its more important that they bring out his personality then his intelligence. Babs can help them do that, while at the same time be a generally known character they can bounce love drama with. Again it’s not strictly about just what Nightwing fans want anymore. It’s about general appeal and trying to get back some semblance of a general audience.

----------


## Rakiduam

> Babs is a character that Dick’s doesn’t have to play the strait man to. Dick is established enough that his skills aren’t really in question, to the point where he’s abused as a measuring stick, because readers are already generally aware of his skills and what they are suppose to be. But really it’s not Dicks skills the make him stand out, detecting, fighting, flipping they all do this stuff and are good at it. It’s his personality that differentiates him. The Batman-lite, Boy Scout, strait man is the worse take on Dick. Its more important that they bring out his personality then his intelligence. Babs can help them do that, while at the same time be a generally known character they can bounce love drama with. Again it’s not strictly about just what Nightwing fans want anymore. It’s about general appeal and trying to get back some semblance of a general audience.


It never is about what Nightwing fans want. But who needs brains when they have "personality", right?

I'm sure the general audiences will be captivated by these dead horses they keep beating, while they are already very aware of Dick skills, who died of a broken neck after falling in a rock the last time Taylor wrote him.

----------


## Godlike13

There aren’t enough Nightwing fans anymore. It’s more important that Dick is likable, then it is that he’s the biggest brain in the room. Being the smartest isn’t going to keep Dick relevant any more then it has Tim. Taylor killed him because people are generally aware of him. It was a death even general readers would be able to acknowledge. It’s the same reason he is the one the gets tied to the chair or shot in the head. Readers are aware enough to take notice, but at the same time not so invested that it makes him or what he’s doing unexpendable. 
They need to get readers invested in him again. Highlighting what makes him unique. Which the reality is, isn’t his skill set. Cause they all do they stuff. All of them. And they do it as well as the story needs. The key is presenting it in a different or alternative way unique to him. And that is where personality comes in. Otherwise why not just read Batman then.

----------


## Agent Z

> It never is about what Nightwing fans want. But who needs brains when they have "personality", right?
> 
> I'm sure the general audiences will be captivated by these dead horses they keep beating, while they are already very aware of Dick skills, who died of a broken neck after falling in a rock the last time Taylor wrote him.


In Taylor's defense, that was an elseworld with an already dumb premise.

----------


## Rakiduam

> There aren’t enough Nightwing fans anymore. It’s more important that Dick is likable, then it is that he’s the biggest brain in the room. Being the smartest isn’t going to keep Dick relevant any more then it has Tim. Taylor killed him because people are generally aware of him. It was a death even general readers would be able to acknowledge. It’s the same reason he is the one the gets tied to the chair or shot in the head. Readers are aware enough to take notice, but at the same time not so invested that it makes him or what he’s doing unexpendable. 
> They need to get readers invested in him again. Highlighting what makes him unique. Which the reality is, isn’t his skill set. Cause they all do they stuff. All of them. And they do it as well as the story needs. The key is presenting it in a different or alternative way unique to him. And that is where personality comes in. Otherwise why not just read Batman then.


The thing is that Dick can be likable and smart, it doesn't have to be one or the other.

Yes all bats have the same set skils that's why they shouldn't be in the same book. The ocacional croosover can work when it needs all hands on deck, like in "Night of Owls", where everyone had something to do and the chance to shine in distinctive ways. Most times they only limit each other and diminish their capacities. In an on-going they become superfluous, they hinder each other developing.

You keep quoting occasions with Dick being victimized like is good thing, as if the a public awareness of Dick in need of rescue was a plus. 
"Boy hostage" doesn't need to be smart, because he is likable, it makes no sense when you need to build up a character to be competent, how do you do that when he doesn't have to find his own solutions? 

On the other hand, it doesn't matter, I will just forget this thing exist for a while until the next relaunch. It's not for fans anyway.

----------


## Godlike13

> The thing is that Dick can be likable and smart, it doesn't have to be one or the other.
> 
> Yes all bats have the same set skils that's why they shouldn't be in the same book. The ocacional croosover can work when it needs all hands on deck, like in "Night of Owls", where everyone had something to do and the chance to shine in distinctive ways. Most times they only limit each other and diminish their capacities. In an on-going they become superfluous, they hinder each other developing.
> 
> You keep quoting occasions with Dick being victimized like is good thing, as if the a public awareness of Dick in need of rescue was a plus. 
> "Boy hostage" doesn't need to be smart, because he is likable, it makes no sense when you need to build up a character to be competent, how do you do that when he doesn't have to find his own solutions? 
> 
> On the other hand, it doesn't matter, I will just forget this thing exist for a while until the next relaunch. It's not for fans anyway.


Never said he can’t be likable and smart, point is he doesn’t have to be the the the smartest or threatened by another smart character. And while you’re not wrong, these characters do often step on one another’s toes, there are also pairs that can help to highlight other aspects of one anther. Dick was created to do that even. 

And I’m not quoting those occasions as good things, I’m simply using them to illustrate a point. They use him as a victim and a measuring stick because he’s established. Readers already generally know who he is and what he is suppose to be be able to do. 
They don’t need to pander to remind readers of what they probably already know, look he’s smart like Batman, when really it’s more important that they present what readers know about him in ways they can actually attach to. There are plenty of ways to be competent. It’s not always about what he does, but how he does it. 

Finally, it needs to be for everybody. As there aren’t enough fans anymore. They’re casting a wider net. Hit or miss, the logic is sound given the situation.

----------


## HsssH

I understand the logic behind "lets get back to what works", but maybe there is a reason why every time we go back there it eventually turns into shit.

----------


## Godlike13

Ya, poor editors who fail to fallow up and keep anything going from one creator to the next. That struggle to manage talent and recruit. Like it or not, but take a look at the most successful times with the Nightwing series. Those “let’s go back to what’s works”, works. Eventually though there just comes a point where they apparently go “let’s blow it up!”. And then hand it to piss poor creators. Except for Grayson. Which was a complete accident. But no Nightwing series ever had that Gail Simone run that builds on what comes before.

----------


## Korath

I just really don't get why they chose to push the DickBab as THE official couple when the DicKory is so much more iconic - and DC even had Barbare be outright terrible with Dick just before that End of the Universe One Shot in Death Metal... It's kind of hard to be wowed by this pairing and the stuff currently proposed, especially when I can only support so much books with my money...

----------


## Agent Z

> I just really don't get why they chose to push the DickBab as THE official couple when the DicKory is so much more iconic - and DC even had Barbare be outright terrible with Dick just before that End of the Universe One Shot in Death Metal... It's kind of hard to be wowed by this pairing and the stuff currently proposed, especially when I can only support so much books with my money...


DickBabs has enough exposure to be considered iconic itself and has the advantage of being limited to the Bat offices. Dick and Kory also, unfortunately, have a history of being horrible to each other as well because that's just how superhero comics are when it comes to drama.

----------


## Ascended

> I understand the logic behind "lets get back to what works", but maybe there is a reason why every time we go back there it eventually turns into shit.


The original premise was sound, and survived some bad creators like Devin Grayson without requiring an overhaul. It only blew up because of Infinite Crisis and Didio's original plan to kill Dick off and blow up Bludhaven. From there we've had an endless stream of bad editorial, swiftly rotating creators who don't build on what came before, and the book being forced to bend to whatever crap Batman is doing. 

The original Dixon style status quo has shown itself to be sustainable, so long as DC doesn't intentionally ruin it. They're the only reason Nightwing has failed or struggled, and we can also see that virtually any time DC puts even a small amount of real effort into the book, it does very well. 

That said, it's not a status quo I want to see going forward. At least not long term. A quick refresh to reestablish Dick's mythos? Sure, that's fine. As a permanent status, it's not what I think the franchise needs to elevate. But there's nothing really "wrong" with it either.

----------


## Godlike13

Dick and Kory are in TTA.

----------


## Korath

> DickBabs has enough exposure to be considered iconic itself and has the advantage of being limited to the Bat offices. Dick and Kory also, unfortunately, have a history of being horrible to each other as well because that's just how superhero comics are when it comes to drama.


The problem is that the Babs' pairing has also been quite terrible and it lacks the outside media exposure of the Dick and Kory's one, IMHO. 

It's probably "easier" to pair them together because the Bat office don't want to let go of Nightwing (which is honestly a mistake which hinders the character greatly) and it'd be a mess to have Kory under two offices, I guess.

----------


## SiegePerilous02

> The problem is that the Babs' pairing has also been quite terrible and it lacks the outside media exposure of the Dick and Kory's one, IMHO. 
> 
> It's probably "easier" to pair them together because the Bat office don't want to let go of Nightwing (which is honestly a mistake which hinders the character greatly) and it'd be a mess to have Kory under two offices, I guess.


It has BTAS and Young Justice, so it is not without it's own media exposure.

As for which is healthier, the early stages of Dick and Kory's relationship had him being emotionally closed off to her and kind of a condescending jerk, and later she got mad at him for "cheating" on her when he was actually raped by Mirage. Kory at least in the comics doesn't seem to be valid of a long haul romance for either of them. Something that burns bright and hot, but fizzles out .Babs and him get written poorly at times, but they seem more compatible in the long run.

----------


## Konja7

> It has BTAS and Young Justice, so it is not without it's own media exposure.
> 
> As for which is healthier, the early stages of Dick and Kory's relationship had him being emotionally closed off to her and kind of a condescending jerk, and later she got mad at him for "cheating" on her when he was actually raped by Mirage. Kory at least in the comics doesn't seem to be valid of a long haul romance for either of them. Something that burns bright and hot, but fizzles out .Babs and him get written poorly at times, but they seem more compatible in the long run.


To be fair, I have understood Barbara also slut-shamed Dick when he was raped by Tarantula.

So, that's probably on writers that don't take men being raped by women seriously, not characters being toxic in relationships.

----------


## HsssH

> The original Dixon style status quo has shown itself to be sustainable


Sustainable in boxing Nightwing in as a Batman-lite.

----------


## Frontier

> It has BTAS and Young Justice, so it is not without it's own media exposure.
> 
> As for which is healthier, the early stages of Dick and Kory's relationship had him being emotionally closed off to her and kind of a condescending jerk, and later she got mad at him for "cheating" on her when he was actually raped by Mirage. Kory at least in the comics doesn't seem to be valid of a long haul romance for either of them. Something that burns bright and hot, but fizzles out .Babs and him get written poorly at times, but they seem more compatible in the long run.


Of course, in B:TAS it kind of fizzled out pretty badly...

----------


## Superboy-Prime

> Of course, in B:TAS it kind of fizzled out pretty badly...


Don't you just love when your adoptive father has an affair with your ex-girlfriend?

----------


## Frontier

> Don't you just love when your adoptive father has an affair with your ex-girlfriend?


Well, that came afterwards, but I guess one can see that being the initiation of the relationship and screwing Dick over.

----------


## Superboy-Prime

> Well, that came afterwards, but I guess one can see that being the initiation of the relationship and screwing Dick over.


The Bat-Family's very own baby mama drama.

----------


## Drako



----------


## Pohzee

Back in blue. The selling point for his past two relaunches lmao

----------


## Rac7d*

> The problem is that the Babs' pairing has also been *quite terrible* and *it lacks the outside media exposure* of the Dick and Kory's one, IMHO. 
> 
> It's probably "easier" to pair them together because the Bat office don't want to let go of Nightwing (which is honestly a mistake which hinders the character greatly) and it'd be a mess to have Kory under two offices, I guess.


Every time they are about take the next step something bad happens that derail Nightwing or resets 
their relationship was strong and very real during his initial nightwing solo. 




Dick has never turned back to kory as an adult. The  issue is that Kory has been more or less stuck for decades with her only other notable post love interest have been Roy, which is a dead end due to his invetable relationships with cheshire and childhood friend Donna Troy.  Kory will* NEVER* be adopted by the bat office. Dick Grayson might move at slow pace but he will never be lost in the shuffle of endless Titan characters.  Even more so Kory is not a teenager anymore so her status is dependent alot on who leads the titans, when its not Dick she can get lost, she needs him more then he needs her.  To most people who are a fan of starfire, her perfect world, her happy ending must include him. That's not fair.

This is not the case with Babs. She started her journey to help her father and earn the respect and trust of batman. In that first year she became comrade a companion and unspoken crush of dick. They were not serious as kids but they were kids. Babs has an incredible tenure as Batgirl until her paralyzation, and continued on with her second alias as Oracle. She gets to coordinate for Batman, The Justice league, The Titans, Waller and Lead her own team . She amassed endless number of allies connections, mentored other young women and passed down her title . She is a full character who is held back by nothing and DC has never lost interest in her, she never disappears.    

I cannot understand how people think that Barbara who is equally as strong a pillar of the Bat family the dominating and property brand of DC could ever be detrimental to Dick Grayson.
They make each other stronger. They are matured season individual who are both  a force to reckoned with.

Batgirl/Babs appears everywhere in media and with DC intent in bringing her into the frontlines in films
That give Nightwing/Dick Grayson a  door he can enter because just as Superman always has his lois she will have her Grayson.    

FYI post the teen titans animated series
Dick Grayson and Babs have appeared in       and soon to follow up in           I am hopeful for Nightwing  to also appear in
The Batman                                                          Gotham Knights                            Harley Quinn
Teen Titans Go                                                        Titans
Young Justice

----------


## Konja7

> Every time they are about take the next step something bad happens that derail Nightwing or resets 
> their relationship was strong and very real during his initial nightwing solo. 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Dick has never turned back to kory as an adult. The  issue is that Kory has been more or less stuck for decades with her only other notable post love interest have been Roy, which is a dead end due to his invetable relationships with cheshire and childhood friend Donna Troy.  Kory will* NEVER* be adopted by the bat office. Dick Grayson might move at slow pace but he will never be lost in the shuffle of endless Titan characters.  Even more so Kory is not a teenager anymore so her status is dependent alot on who leads the titans, when its not Dick she can get lost, she needs him more then he needs her.  To most people who are a fan of starfire, her perfect world, her happy ending must include him. That's not fair.
> 
> This is not the case with Babs. She started her journey to help her father and earn the respect and trust of batman. In that first year she became comrade a companion and unspoken crush of dick. They were not serious as kids but they were kids. Babs has an incredible tenure as Batgirl until her paralyzation, and continued on with her second alias as Oracle. She gets to coordinate for Batman, The Justice league, The Titans, Waller and Lead her own team . She amassed endless number of allies connections, mentored other young women and passed down her title . She is a full character who is held back by nothing and DC has never lost interest in her, she never disappears.    
> ...


I've understood the part of Dick having a crush on Barbara when he was Robin is a retcon from Dixon. 

This crush doesn't exist in the original stories.

----------


## Rakiduam

> Batgirl/Babs appears everywhere in media and with DC intent in bringing her into the frontlines in films
> That give Nightwing/Dick Grayson a  door he can enter because just as Superman always has his lois she will have her Grayson.


Good for Barbara I guess, but I don't get why you think that benefits Nightwing. If he is going to be stuck being someone's sidekick, Batman is so much better option than Batgirl. 

This paring is really becoming shackles, befoe I would have say for botht of them but it seems like she is great, it's only Dick's life, experiences and history being discarded to make room for the ship...  and now his title. 

But hey!, now that DC is co-opting every aspect of Dick's 70 years narrative, as a family activity he may have the oportunity of apear in someone else's movie. Fantastic! 

Talking about their greatest hits, does anyone remember that time they got engaged in the beginning of a crisis and when the world didn't end, she dumped with a letter? I'm misremembering that one?

----------


## Konja7

> Talking about their greatest hits, does anyone remember that time they got engaged in the beginning of a crisis and when the world didn't end, she dumped with a letter? I'm misremembering that one?


I remember that story. 

Although this story happen in the same comic where it is told that he slept with Barbara just before his wedding with Kori (and Barbara didn't know this either), so I prefer to ignore all that.

----------


## Rakiduam

> I remember that story. 
> 
> Although this story happen in the same comic where it is told that he slept with Barbara just before his wedding with Kori (and Barbara didn't know this either), so I prefer to ignore all that.


That's kind of the thing, they take turns but they both suck so bad that is better ignore it all.

----------


## SiegePerilous02

Dick/Kory and Dick/Babs both have their fair share of bad/toxic storylines, but that's no different than Clark/Lois, Bruce/Selina, Hal/Carol, Peter/Mary Jane, Scott/Jean. Comic writers are just shit at romance as a rule, and we'd inevitably get the same if they tried pairing him with someone else. 

But the main thing Dick/Kory has going for it is the Wolfman/Perez portion of the Titans run, it's all down hill for the Titans in general once Perez left. Even in there, it doesn't read like a sustainable romance the way they wrote it, even Donna (who loves them both) is all "I don't know how healthy this actually is." The cartoon did a better job with Robin and Starfire than the comic ever did, IMO. 




> To be fair, I have understood Barbara also slut-shamed Dick when he was raped by Tarantula.
> 
> So, that's probably on writers that don't take men being raped by women seriously, not characters being toxic in relationships.


It would be nice




> Of course, in B:TAS it kind of fizzled out pretty badly...


This (among many reasons) is why TNBA and Beyond are in "contested sequel" territory for me. :Stick Out Tongue: 

But BTAS is why we even have the romance to begin with, it showed up in Shumacher's much maligned movie, made it over to the comics, YJ in turn utilized it, and now it will be touched upon in the Titans show. It can all be traced back to BTAS, because a serious romance between them did not exist before that.

----------


## John Venus

> But BTAS is why we even have the romance to begin with, it showed up in Shumacher's much maligned movie, made it over to the comics, YJ in turn utilized it, and now it will be touched upon in the Titans show. It can all be traced back to BTAS, because a serious romance between them did not exist before that.


Nope. They teased it in the Batman Family title in the 1970's. 

She kissed him to shut him up because he was being patronizing (yes, it doesn't make any sense), then readers wrote in complaining about the age gap between them while others loved the idea. Then there was some mild flirting and infatuation between them.  Then in later issue of Bat Fam, Dick confesses his crush to her, comparing it to crushing on a babysitter or teacher but Babs is asleep.  

It was B:TAS and Dixon in the comics that picked up and ran with it.  Dick confessing to her that one time would revisited in that infamous Nightwing Annual where Dick slept with her while engaged to Kory.

----------


## Superboy-Prime

> Nope. They teased it in the Batman Family title in the 1970's. 
> 
> She kissed him to shut him up because he was being patronizing (yes, it doesn't make any sense), then readers wrote in complaining about the age gap between them while others loved the idea. Then there was some mild flirting and infatuation between them.  Then in later issue of Bat Fam, Dick confesses his crush to her, comparing it to crushing on a babysitter or teacher but Babs is asleep.  
> 
> It was B:TAS and Dixon in the comics that picked up and ran with it.  Dick confessing to her that one time would revisited in that infamous Nightwing Annual where Dick slept with her while engaged to Kory.


He really lives up to his name!

----------


## HsssH

> I cannot understand how people think that Barbara who is equally as strong a pillar of the Bat family the dominating and property brand of DC could ever be detrimental to Dick Grayson.
> They make each other stronger. They are matured season individual who are both  a force to reckoned with.


People obviously have different opinions and all that, but while you cite it as an advantage of Dick/Babs pairing to me it is a clear disadvantage and main reasons why their relationship should be axed for good as fast as possible.

In my opinion characters that lead different brands shouldn't be in relationships unless they are planning to merge those brands into one. Fact that Kory does not really exist without Dick is a good thing. It means that Nightwing writer can do what he wants with their pairing and progress it without wondering about what the other people want to do with her. For an extreme example lets assume that someone decides that Dick should get a kid. You can easily sideline Kory for a year or two. Can you do the same with Barbara? Not really, she is likely to either have her own book or be part of a team book. Then maybe someone from animation (or movies) division comes in and says wait no, we are doing a movie with her and don't want her pregnant at the same time in comics.

----------


## Godlike13

There is good and bad to throwaway characters. Not the Starfire is a throwaway character. Yes there is more flexibility, but at the same time they are easily thrown away and so don’t garner much investment from readers. Thing is with Babs, and Dick for that matter, they are constants, and sister/brother brands for lack of a better term. They’ll be around regardless of each other but at the same time are always on hand when the other need a quick love interest or supporting character readers actually care about.

----------


## Pohzee

Man, Ex-Positions was a gut-punch. “Uh, sorry Kory. I can’t date you because I’m tied down to Gotham.” Absolute state of this whole thread’s conversation. lmao

----------


## Frontier

> Nope. They teased it in the Batman Family title in the 1970's. 
> 
> She kissed him to shut him up because he was being patronizing (yes, it doesn't make any sense), then readers wrote in complaining about the age gap between them while others loved the idea. Then there was some mild flirting and infatuation between them.  Then in later issue of Bat Fam, Dick confesses his crush to her, comparing it to crushing on a babysitter or teacher but Babs is asleep.  
> 
> It was B:TAS and Dixon in the comics that picked up and ran with it.  Dick confessing to her that one time would revisited in that infamous Nightwing Annual where Dick slept with her while engaged to Kory.


I wonder if B:TAS impacted Dixon's writing of the pair at all, because I feel like his pushing and developing it so much in the comic is why it feels as strong of a pairing as it is. 



> Man, Ex-Positions was a gut-punch. “Uh, sorry Kory. I can’t date you because I’m tied down to Gotham.” Absolute state of this whole thread’s conversation. lmao


Kory deserves better.

----------


## km_sus

Honestly female "love interests" are the biggest detriment to most of the Nightwing books. Tarantula, Babs, Helena, Cheyenne Freemont - they all take a very domineering role in his books. It drives the narrative that Dick is a highly capable dumbass who needs to be pointed in the right direction by a "commander" in order to actually achieve anything. Not only does it result in Dick playing second fiddle in his own book, but the portrayal of these women come across as overtly stereotypical and sexist when most of their personality traits default to "bossy" and "smart". It devalues Dick's skills and just adds a negative portrayal to otherwise very well rounded characters.

----------


## SiegePerilous02

> Nope. They teased it in the Batman Family title in the 1970's. 
> 
> She kissed him to shut him up because he was being patronizing (yes, it doesn't make any sense), then readers wrote in complaining about the age gap between them while others loved the idea. Then there was some mild flirting and infatuation between them.  Then in later issue of Bat Fam, Dick confesses his crush to her, comparing it to crushing on a babysitter or teacher but Babs is asleep.  
> 
> It was B:TAS and Dixon in the comics that picked up and ran with it.  Dick confessing to her that one time would revisited in that infamous Nightwing Annual where Dick slept with her while engaged to Kory.


IDK, I'm aware of the Bronze Age flirting, but a lot of it seems one sided on Dick's part with his crush, but not something Babs seriously reciprocates. In terms of Bronze age, their respective main love interests are Jason Bard and Starfire. Maybe BTAS picked up on it, but I also wonder if they (and Shumacher) were doing a composite of Babs and Betty Kane with making her the same age as Dick (if not slightly younger).

----------


## Frontier

> Honestly female "love interests" are the biggest detriment to most of the Nightwing books. Tarantula, Babs, Helena, Cheyenne Freemont - they all take a very domineering role in his books. It drives the narrative that Dick is a highly capable dumbass who needs to be pointed in the right direction by a "commander" in order to actually achieve anything. Not only does it result in Dick playing second fiddle in his own book, but the portrayal of these women come across as overtly stereotypical and sexist when most of their personality traits default to "bossy" and "smart". It devalues Dick's skills and just adds a negative portrayal to otherwise very well rounded characters.


I think Dick is a romantic but he doesn't need to be bossed around by the women in his life.

----------


## Rac7d*

Titans academy was a blur no answer just hints to lead up to what looks like another bad end

----------


## Dzetoun

> Titans academy was a blur no answer just hints to lead up to what looks like another bad end


Sheridan is one of the few _Future State_ writers to continue with the regular book next month. He was obviously using _Future State: Titans Academy_ to set up his run. Which is fine, as far as that goes. Certainly he is playing off Titans history, both written and animated (which fits his background as a TV writer). It was a downer, but that's the nature of the world they gave him to work with, so he had no choice but to fit his story into that frame.  The objection I had was that the three layers of chronology were very confusing, and the multiple characters (many of whom we haven't really met) meant we could not get very invested in any of them and the story lacked emotional impact.

One hopes that he won't be using the time jumps in his regular run. Also, one hopes he takes time to really introduce the characters and get us invested in their personalities and relationships. One hopes, but there are no guarantees.

----------


## John Venus

> I wonder if B:TAS impacted Dixon's writing of the pair at all, because I feel like his pushing and developing it so much in the comic is why it feels as strong of a pairing as it is. 
> 
> Kory deserves better.


A chicken/egg situation. Timm/Dini  were very much influenced by what was going on in the comics as much as the comics were influenced by them.  B:TAS adapted some of Dixon's stories, O'Neill also consulted on the show and even wrote some of the episodes. He knew they were introducing Renee Montoya on the show and was able to incorporate her in the comics early.   




> IDK, I'm aware of the Bronze Age flirting, but a lot of it seems one sided on Dick's part with his crush, but not something Babs seriously reciprocates. In terms of Bronze age, their respective main love interests are Jason Bard and Starfire. Maybe BTAS picked up on it, but I also wonder if they (and Shumacher) were doing a composite of Babs and Betty Kane with making her the same age as Dick (if not slightly younger).


Here is a good break down of their relationship from the Bronze Age: https://thebatmanuniverse.net/batgirl-34/ 

It definitely wasn't one sided.  Bronze Age Babs and 90's Babs were much stronger characters than the versions we've gotten since.  

Schumacher's Batgirl was a composite of Barbara and Julia Pennyworth.

----------


## WonderNight

> Kory deserves better.


 Dick deserves better. These gotham handcuffs are starting to make it so you can't take him seriously as anything other than another sidekick.

----------


## Claude

> Dick deserves better. These gotham handcuffs are starting to make it so you can't take him seriously as anything other than another sidekick.


I've said it before and I'll say it again - do "Batman And Robin - The Dynamic Duo", with Bruce and Dick at the height of their powers, to get all the understandable "Dick and Bruce are significant figures in each others lives" out of everyone's systems, and then have fun defining the Nightwing title in contrast.

----------


## bearman

I've said it before and I'll say it again - do "Batman And Robin - The Dynamic Duo", with Bruce and Dick at the height of their powers, to get all the understandle "Dick and Bruce are significant figures in each others lives" out of everyone's systems, and then have fun defining the Nightwing title in contrast.


Great idea.

----------


## Drako

> Scott Snyder was also on Word Balloon: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rQAGmBZPhdQ
> 
> Touched on a few DC related things but in terms of new book news, he mentioned that his Black Label Nightwing pitch has been greenlit but based off his creator owned slate he realistically won't get to it untill 2022.


So, no Nightwing Parabola this year. That's a bummer.
At least is coming.

Thanks Hypo for the information.

----------


## Frontier

> I've said it before and I'll say it again - do "Batman And Robin - The Dynamic Duo", with Bruce and Dick at the height of their powers, to get all the understandable "Dick and Bruce are significant figures in each others lives" out of everyone's systems, and then have fun defining the Nightwing title in contrast.


A book about Bruce and Dick in their prime as the dynamic duo? I wouldn't mind, but I don't think it would change much.

----------


## Superboy-Prime

Yeah, preferably, a Batman and Robin series would be set in present day DC.

----------


## SiegePerilous02

> Here is a good break down of their relationship from the Bronze Age: https://thebatmanuniverse.net/batgirl-34/ 
> 
> It definitely wasn't one sided.  Bronze Age Babs and 90's Babs were much stronger characters than the versions we've gotten since.


I stand corrected! Thanks for this. I've seen some fandom discussions that lead me to believe this was more a one sided crush, big sister sort of vibe. Maybe they were Dick/Kory shippers :Stick Out Tongue: 




> Schumacher's Batgirl was a composite of Barbara and Julia Pennyworth.


Source for this? Not that I don't believe you, but Julia strikes me as too obscure to make it into such an adaptation. stranger things have happened though.

----------


## Drako

by  Ivan Tao - Art Station.

Edit: Weird that this forum censor the name "Art Station" when both words are together.

----------


## Avi

While Teen Titans didn't have any great moments,imo, I think Dick using Miguel's constructs during fights is a cool idea that I hope stays around. 




> So, no Nightwing Parabola this year. That's a bummer.
> At least is coming.
> 
> Thanks Hypo for the information.


That's a shame... but not necessarily a bad thing as long as it doesn't quietly vanish like some other promising Black Label books.

----------


## John Venus

> I stand corrected! Thanks for this. I've seen some fandom discussions that lead me to believe this was more a one sided crush, big sister sort of vibe. Maybe they were Dick/Kory shippers


It was a crush and mild infatuation on both sides. It wouldn't be until the 90's that DC would act like the two were always meant to be and Kory was just a stop gap for Dick and would selectively retcon their history to add more romantic elements to their history.  




> Source for this? Not that I don't believe you, but Julia strikes me as too obscure to make it into such an adaptation. stranger things have happened though.


No source. But Julia is the one who is related to Alfred while Bette is related to Kathy. Thus Schumacher's Batgirl would be closer to Julia than Bette.

----------


## Konja7

> It was a crush and mild infatuation on both sides. It wouldn't be until the 90's that DC would act like the two were always meant to be and Kory was just a stop gap for Dick and would selectively retcon their history to add more romantic elements to their history.


Yeah. This crush and mild infatuation appeared in Batman family, but it doesn't develop anymore. 

NTT would start shortly after and Starfire will become Dick's love interest. 





> No source. But Julia is the one who is related to Alfred while Bette is related to Kathy. Thus Schumacher's Batgirl would be closer to Julia than Bette.


It's possible they don't know Julia or Beth. 

They need Barbara being related to Alfred to connect with the story they were trying to tell. 

The age could just be the direction they want for the character.

----------


## Konja7

> I stand corrected! Thanks for this. I've seen some fandom discussions that lead me to believe this was more a one sided crush, big sister sort of vibe. Maybe they were Dick/Kory shippers


If I'm not mistaken, the one-side crush of Dick as Robin is one of the Dixon retcons. You can see it in Batgirl Year One. 

The one-sided crush concept is that Dick/Robin as a 14-15 teenager has a crush on Barbara/Batgirl (that was older). This concept seems to be creation of Dixon, since this never happened in the comics at that time. 


PS: Dick was 19 in the Batman Family comic, which seems to be the first time we see Dick and Barbara "flirting".

----------


## Godlike13

While there was retcons, but its not like Dixon didn’t develop the romance with them as adults.

----------


## Frontier

> While there was retcons, but its not like Dixon didn’t develop the romance with them as adults.


Yeah, I think he's one of the main reasons it's as prevalent in the comics as it is (well, that and Dick's role in the Batfamily being what it is as well).

----------


## Drako

Nightwing #80 cover by Redondo!
The solicits might be out tomorrow.



https://twitter.com/Bruno_Redondo_F/...255040/photo/1

----------


## Drako

Is this a ball in front of him or a hole in his chest? Since Taylor and Redondo are using this #whoisheartless hashtag i tend to believe it's the second option.

Dick Grayson new form is a Arrancar from bleach.

Edit:




> Revealed! 
> @Bruno_Redondo_F’s cover to our Nightwing #80.
> The man without a heart is coming.
> #WhoIsHeartless?#NightwingsNemesis

----------


## dropkickjake

Had to catch up with like 3 pages of Babs v Starfire. So that was fun. I sorta come down on the side of "I don't care who his love interest is, I just want it to be done well." If I *HAD* to guess what taylor is going to do with Dick/Babs, I'd say it will be a bit of romantic tension and flirting without too much tying down and defining. From what I hear about him, he seems like he'd want to keep that part of the book light and fun. Can't say that for sure, though, because I haven't actually read his stuff.

What i *can* say for sure, though, is that the cover for #80 is absolute fire. Wow.

----------


## Pohzee

I really like leaning into the pink and blue color scheme the past few covers. It's a palette that looks really good on Dick. I absolutely loved it in Chang's run

----------


## Drako

Nightwing #80 variant cover by Jamal Campbell.
Man, they are killing it with this covers.

----------


## dropkickjake

these covers are hitting the right notes. They look fun. That variant even has a superman shirt on the clothes line? perf.

----------


## Drako

NIGHTWING #80 

Dick Grayson’s always had a big heart. From protecting those persecuted by bullies in his youth, to combating evil alongside Batman as Robin, to pledging his newly inherited wealth to enriching Blüdhaven as Nightwing—his kindness and generosity have always guided his life. But now a new villain stalks the back alleys of Blüdhaven, removing the hearts of the city’s most vulnerable. Who is this terrifying new menace named Heartless, and will he be able to resist plucking out the biggest heart in all of Blüdhaven? Read this (literally) heart-wrenching issue to find out!

written by TOM TAYLOR
art and cover by BRUNO REDONDO
card stock variant cover by JAMAL CAMPBELL
ON SALE 5/18/21
$3.99 US | 32 PAGES | FC | DC
CARD STOCK VARIANT COVER $4.99 US

https://www.comicsbeat.com/nightwing-80-cover-reveal/

----------


## Avi

> these covers are hitting the right notes. They look fun. That variant even has a superman shirt on the clothes line? perf.


As well as speedster socks, batman boxer shorts and a wonder woman top.  :Big Grin:  And is that a faded out lantern on the black shirt (left side)?

The covers really are great and it's cool that even the variants lean into the blue/pink colour scheme. I might just have to get this one from Campbell.

It looks more like a ball on the regular cover but a hole would make more sense... Hole via ball?

Arrancar Dick sounds like sth I would read, lol.

----------


## Frontier

> NIGHTWING #80 
> 
> Dick Grayson’s always had a big heart. From protecting those persecuted by bullies in his youth, to combating evil alongside Batman as Robin, to pledging his newly inherited wealth to enriching Blüdhaven as Nightwing—his kindness and generosity have always guided his life. But now a new villain stalks the back alleys of Blüdhaven, removing the hearts of the city’s most vulnerable. Who is this terrifying new menace named Heartless, and will he be able to resist plucking out the biggest heart in all of Blüdhaven? Read this (literally) heart-wrenching issue to find out!
> 
> written by TOM TAYLOR
> art and cover by BRUNO REDONDO
> card stock variant cover by JAMAL CAMPBELL
> ON SALE 5/18/21
> $3.99 US | 32 PAGES | FC | DC
> ...


Are Heartless and Flatline friends?

----------


## Grayson - The Dark Heir

Arrancar Nightwing would actually be hype, but they'll never do anything like that lol.

----------


## 9th.

> Back in blue. The selling point for his past two relaunches lmao


Back in Blue...AGAIN and loving it

*Immediately followed by brand new and shiny Batman event that encompasses all his satellite titles.*

----------


## Murrocko

> Back in Blue...AGAIN and loving it
> 
> *Immediately followed by brand new and shiny Batman event that encompasses all his satellite titles.*


I reeeeaally hope we can go a few arcs with no crossover issues.

----------


## Godlike13

> Nightwing #80 variant cover by Jamal Campbell.
> Man, they are killing it with this covers.


These post sex face covers are killing me.

----------


## Restingvoice

> Nightwing #80 cover by Redondo!
> The solicits might be out tomorrow.
> 
> 
> 
> https://twitter.com/Bruno_Redondo_F/...255040/photo/1





> Are Heartless and Flatline friends?


I wonder if Heartless is Una Nemo's friend

----------


## Rac7d*

> Nightwing #80 variant cover by Jamal Campbell.
> Man, they are killing it with this covers.


I’m gonna have to buy multiple issues
They are all amazing

----------


## Drako

Future State Nightwing #2 preview:

https://www.dccomics.com/blog/2021/0...together-again

----------


## Frontier

> Future State Nightwing #2 preview:
> 
> https://www.dccomics.com/blog/2021/0...together-again


I'm kind of amazed at the strong emoting coming from Batman's eyes.

Does Dick know this is Jace? Does he even know who Jace is?

----------


## Avi

> Future State Nightwing #2 preview:
> 
> https://www.dccomics.com/blog/2021/0...together-again


That's a cool first page. An epic team-up is all I need. No more story, just kicking ass, and I'll be happy enough  :Big Grin:

----------


## OWL45

> That's a cool first page. An epic team-up is all I need. No more story, just kicking ass, and I'll be happy enough


This is the type of NightWing I wish we had more of. A leader who is badass, tactical, and hyper competent. Its a shame we only get this in an out of continuity story.

----------


## Ascended

> This is the type of NightWing I wish we had more of. A leader who is badass, tactical, and hyper competent. Its a shame we only get this in an out of continuity story.


After the last few years I'll take what I can get, and hope that Taylor intends on giving us this kind of Nightwing going forward on a regular basis.

----------


## Wingin' It

> Future State Nightwing #2 preview:
> 
> https://www.dccomics.com/blog/2021/0...together-again


This is looking really good! I'm pleased with how they're handling Dick and Jace as the new Batman.

----------


## K. Jones

> I'm kind of amazed at the strong emoting coming from Batman's eyes.
> 
> Does Dick know this is Jace? Does he even know who Jace is?


He was at Hudson U specifically during the Tim Fox period but like, he's Batman's # 1 friend, associate and super-detective student and is pretty aware of Luke and Lucius, so ... probably. Even with the introduction in the seventies, Lucius (& Extended Fam) would've been known to the protected ward of guardian Bruce Wayne and the murders of the Graysons could theoretically have been more "Publicly Notorious and Well Remembered" than the Wayne Murders. Dick isn't always aware of every detail Bruce would be, but word that Lucius had a kid who dabbled with Terrible Trio dirty-work seems like it would have reached him. But on that note, Jace has been gone quite a while and since this is a 'decade later' ALT-future storyline, even longer. 

Come to think of it this just makes me realize that Dick Grayson should be more of a celebrity than Bruce Wayne. People remember the Wayne Murders sure, and the Wayne name has a big 'private' influence in Gotham and Bruce uses it as a strategic tactic as well, employing his celebrity as a tool in his arsenal. But the murders were a while ago, he keeps to himself, it seems like it would be more talked about in "certain social circles". The rich and socialites in particular. Cops who talk about it as an unsolved case. Doctors who knew Thomas & Martha.

But the Grayson Murders? One of the highest profile opening salvos of the "Colorful Villains" Modern Gotham, when one of Gotham's scummiest mobsters killed world-famous performers and then Gotham's Richest Orphan takes the kid in and makes him into a millionaire? Dick shouldn't be able to go out in public.

----------


## Restingvoice

> He was at Hudson U specifically during the Tim Fox period but like, he's Batman's # 1 friend, associate and super-detective student and is pretty aware of Luke and Lucius, so ... probably. Even with the introduction in the seventies, Lucius (& Extended Fam) would've been known to the protected ward of guardian Bruce Wayne and the murders of the Graysons could theoretically have been more "Publicly Notorious and Well Remembered" than the Wayne Murders. Dick isn't always aware of every detail Bruce would be, but word that Lucius had a kid who dabbled with Terrible Trio dirty-work seems like it would have reached him. But on that note, Jace has been gone quite a while and since this is a 'decade later' ALT-future storyline, even longer. 
> 
> Come to think of it this just makes me realize that Dick Grayson should be more of a celebrity than Bruce Wayne. People remember the Wayne Murders sure, and the Wayne name has a big 'private' influence in Gotham and Bruce uses it as a strategic tactic as well, employing his celebrity as a tool in his arsenal. But the murders were a while ago, he keeps to himself, it seems like it would be more talked about in "certain social circles". The rich and socialites in particular. Cops who talk about it as an unsolved case. Doctors who knew Thomas & Martha.
> 
> But the Grayson Murders? One of the highest profile opening salvos of the "Colorful Villains" Modern Gotham, when one of Gotham's scummiest mobsters killed world-famous performers and then Gotham's Richest Orphan takes the kid in and makes him into a millionaire? Dick shouldn't be able to go out in public.


They're celebrity but Circus celebrity. It's not _that_ famous.

----------


## Pohzee

The Wayne boys could be like Kardashians.

----------


## Frontier

This reminds me of in _Bad Blood_ where they established Dick was childhood friends with Kate and Luke and even had a crush on Kate  :Stick Out Tongue: .

----------


## Ascended

Regarding Dick and his celebrity status, I think he probably pisses off the paparazzi more than anything by being exceptionally boring. 

Bruce tends to stay fairly low profile, and when he does do something news worthy it's often something embarrassing or scandalous (done to cover up his Bat activities of course, but nobody knows that), with enough charity work thrown in to keep Bruce's public persona sympathetic. The press in Gotham likely follow Bruce around as much as they can, hoping to catch him in some awkward goof, since they happen just often enough to keep the reporters thirsty for more. 

But Dick? Okay, he was an athletic wunderkind who's parents were literally murdered in a spotlight who then gets adopted by the richest dude on the east coast....and Dick then grows up to be so sexy he makes straight men question their choices. I imagine the paparazzi were drooling all over themselves with the hopes that Dick would end up keeping them in business all by himself, right? I mean, on paper all that sounds like the perfect recipe for tabloid drama and sales. But what does Dick do? Spends tons of time away from Gotham, rarely ever steps into the spotlight, has little to do with the company, doesn't have a long string of very public broken hearts behind him, and usually lives in very modest, almost cramped, apartments. He ends up looking so mundane the tabloids really don't have anything to work with, and more reputable news sources don't either.

----------


## bearman

> Regarding Dick and his celebrity status, I think he probably pisses off the paparazzi more than anything by being exceptionally boring. 
> 
> Bruce tends to stay fairly low profile, and when he does do something news worthy it's often something embarrassing or scandalous (done to cover up his Bat activities of course, but nobody knows that), with enough charity work thrown in to keep Bruce's public persona sympathetic. The press in Gotham likely follow Bruce around as much as they can, hoping to catch him in some awkward goof, since they happen just often enough to keep the reporters thirsty for more. 
> 
> But Dick? Okay, he was an athletic wunderkind who's parents were literally murdered in a spotlight who then gets adopted by the richest dude on the east coast....and Dick then grows up to be so sexy he makes straight men question their choices. I imagine the paparazzi were drooling all over themselves with the hopes that Dick would end up keeping them in business all by himself, right? I mean, on paper all that sounds like the perfect recipe for tabloid drama and sales. But what does Dick do? Spends tons of time away from Gotham, rarely ever steps into the spotlight, has little to do with the company, doesn't have a long string of very public broken hearts behind him, and usually lives in very modest, almost cramped, apartments. He ends up looking so mundane the tabloids really don't have anything to work with, and more reputable news sources don't either.



I would think all of that would make a responsible journalist curious.

----------


## Frontier

Honestly it doesn't seem like most of the Batfamily other than Bruce is followed that much by journalists or the paparazzi, even though by all rights they should.

Probably because there's no way they could maintain any secrecy or deniability the way they operate or are linked together. I think I remember how quickly Vicki Vale was able to deduce everybody when she set out to expose Batman.

----------


## Ascended

> I would think all of that would make a responsible journalist curious.


I think it would. But assuming the Bats are any good at keeping their secrets, and we have to assume they are because their ID's haven't been outed, then that responsible journalist would quickly decide there's no real story there. Dick's issues with Bruce would just look like typical family stuff, and wouldn't be good for much more than the occasional clickbait article. And Dick himself, you'd expect some Paris Hilton level scandals there right? But instead the biggest scandal Dick's involved in is what, breaking up with an exotic supermodel? Changing jobs every six months? 

I'm not saying that the Wayne family wouldn't be in the papers at all, of course they would. But I don't think Dick would be followed around by an army of paparazzi either; not at this point. Certainly when he was younger, but not now. He's proven to be far too down to earth and "normal" to sell tabloids.

----------


## Superboy-Prime

> I'm kind of amazed at the strong emoting coming from Batman's eyes.
> 
> Does Dick know this is Jace? Does he even know who Jace is?


Dick actually met Tim "Jace" Fox back in his debut storyline in 1979-1980. His part of the story involved tracing Tim Fox, because Tim thought Bruce had owned the worst tenements in town, so he was gonna blow up the Wayne Foundation building. He was being manipulated. Dick stuck up for him when Bruce beat up the entire gang Tim was running with.

----------


## Dzetoun

> Dick actually met Tim "Jace" Fox back in his debut storyline in 1979-1980. His part of the story involved tracing Tim Fox, because Tim thought Bruce had owned the worst tenements in town, so he was gonna blow up the Wayne Foundation building. He was being manipulated. Dick stuck up for him when Bruce beat up the entire gang Tim was running with.


More recently, I believe it was in a _Batgirl_ issue, Luke Fox talked about how his father remembered Dick from when he would hang out at Wayne Enterprises and swing from the light fixtures, and how Lucius was inconsolable at Dick's apparent death in _Forever Evil_. So, going by that, he has a long time strong connection with the Fox family.

----------


## Drako

LMAO Someone at DC is very horny.

https://www.instagram.com/p/CLR4a6oFg8c/

Edit:




> Roses are red.
> Nightwings back in blue.
> @Bruno_Redondo_F  and I have a sneak peek for you. 
> Happy #ValentinesDay


https://twitter.com/TomTaylorMade/st...597505/photo/1

----------


## Alpha

I still waiting for a story about Dick Grayson shaving his chest. Maybe it could feature Condiment King. 



I bet he is a pansexual and likes to use food in the bedroom and has a fetish for covering people with sauces. I gotta write a fan comic

----------


## Frontier

> LMAO Someone at DC is very horny.
> 
> https://www.instagram.com/p/CLR4a6oFg8c/
> 
> Edit:
> 
> 
> 
> https://twitter.com/TomTaylorMade/st...597505/photo/1


No surprise there  :Stick Out Tongue: .

----------


## Drako



----------


## Rac7d*

https://twitter.com/chrisjonesart/st...536532995?s=21
EF856FC2-9C0E-4975-8D00-99982A40BA98.jpg

I can’t wait for season 4

----------


## Avi

The sneak peeks are great. Very pleased that the scars are back. They get left out too often imo. The second one kinda reminds me of Grayson. Not entirely sure why but probably because of this: 

gr9.jpg

I'm getting more excited for #78 every time they post sth new. They are putting a lot of thought into their work. Or at least Redondo, does, lol.

----------


## Drako

> The sneak peeks are great. Very pleased that the scars are back. They get left out too often imo. The second one kinda reminds me of Grayson. Not entirely sure why but probably because of this: 
> 
> gr9.jpg
> 
> I'm getting more excited for #78 every time they post sth new. They are putting a lot of thought into their work. Or at least Redondo, does, lol.


The only other comic i remember his scars are the Tomasi\Kramer Nightwing arc. Funny that Bruce is always drawn with his scars to represent his years of fighting crime, but they forget that Dick is as fighting for almost the same time.

----------


## Avi

> The only other comic i remember his scars are the Tomasi\Kramer Nightwing arc. Funny that Bruce is always drawn with his scars to represent his years of fighting crime, but they forget that Dick is as fighting for almost the same time.


Yeah, I don't remember any other comics either, but these panels really stuck with me. It's one of the smalls things I'll always remember about Tomasi's run.

There certainly are some prominent examples of Bruce with scars, even if he isn't always drawn with them. I'm guessing Bruce gets them more often because he is firmly cemented as a battle-hardened fighter while Dick has been the "pretty boy" for a long while now. I'd say most people don't associate pretty with scars. It's also added linework. As far as I can tell, most panels depicting Bruce's scars come from out-of-continuity.

Among the comic book professionals, I only know of Ming Doyle, who has some fanart of Dick with scars. Everything else I've seen comes from fanartists.

https://twitter.com/mingdoyle/status...17064207609862


http://www.mingdoyle.com/illust/sketch33.html

----------


## Pohzee

I think the sexualization of Nightwing can be a bit uncomfortable sometimes. Like it can be all in good fun but I don't want the uninitiated to think I'm into some cartoon fetish thing for liking the character.

----------


## Gaius



----------


## Frontier

I love Batman telling Robin he still has homerwork to do :P.

----------


## WonderNight

Wasn't robin already with batman when they met superman? Dc makes it sound like robin came after the JL relationships. But robin was there at the beginning right?

----------


## WonderNight

> I think the sexualization of Nightwing can be a bit uncomfortable sometimes. Like it can be all in good fun but I don't want the uninitiated to think I'm into some cartoon fetish thing for liking the character.


The thing about sexualization of a character is that comfortably is subjective from person to person, just like gore is. If someone is uncomfortable that fine but when someone being uncomfortable start saying that sexualization shouldn't be a thing that all for others who are not uncomfortable and enjoy it as entertainment is where they go wrong.

----------


## HsssH

Thats up to DC to decide how do they want their characters to be seen.

----------


## Konja7

> Wasn't robin already with batman when they met superman? Dc makes it sound like robin came after the JL relationships. But robin was there at the beginning right?


DC like rewrite that part of the story.

----------


## sifighter

Huh after Red X, looks like we can add another name to Dick Grayson’s resume thanks to Batman/Catwoman #3, spoilers read at own risk 

*spoilers:*
 Commissioner Grayson, according to Tom King in his alternate future when Helena Wayne is Batwoman Dick Grayson becomes Police Commissioner of Gotham. Kind of ironic a former Robin is lighting up the bat signal for Bruce’s Daughter but hey nice to see Dick’s years as a police officer go somewhere. 
*end of spoilers*

----------


## Avi

I didn't think I would enjoy FS Nightwing this much. I hoped I would, of course, but I didn't believe it. It's a great showing, imo. *spoilers:*
Especially in terms of Dick's tactical and tech skills. Such a breath of fresh air or rather a return to the glory days? Taylor has bigger shoes to fill than I thought, and now I'm actually a little excited for FS: Gotham. I hope we'll see Jace and Dick teaming up again. They have a fun dynamic. The glimpse at the resistance is cool as well. The only gripe I have is that Arkham was made out to be more than it is, and we got no explanation as to why Dick started working with the Arkham villains and what exactly A-Day is, though that probably came up in another Bat title I didn't read. Oh, and Dick being a car guy instead of a motorbike guy, is just a lie, but I'll forgive that, lol. 
*end of spoilers* 




> Wasn't robin already with batman when they met superman? Dc makes it sound like robin came after the JL relationships. But robin was there at the beginning right?


As Konja7 says, it depends on continuity. That's New Frontier, I think? At the moment, Dick has come into Bruce's life after the Justice League at least since the N52. But the order might have changed before that. Personally, I'll always think of Robin debuting before the JL, so I'm deliberately not keeping up with such changes.





> I think the sexualization of Nightwing can be a bit uncomfortable sometimes. Like it can be all in good fun but I don't want the uninitiated to think I'm into some cartoon fetish thing for liking the character.


I also think Dick's sexualization gets a bit out of hand sometimes. Mostly because he is singled out. A lot of times it's the only official solo promotion he gets, which is sad to see as a fan. There was nothing stopping DC from promoting multiple heroes on Valentine's Day. Male and/or female.

That said, I enjoy the sexualization when it fits the story like when M points out Dick's best asset in Grayson, and while I rolled my eyes when Seeley & King named his butt cheeks it still fit the vibe and the Skull Girls. Being highly moral isn't their thing, and it's not as if they ever told Dick.

Sometimes it harms the story, though. Like when Dick got butt-grabbed in the recent Annual. That's just yikes. He should at least have gotten to defend himself.

----------


## Ascended

I think the sexualization of Dick is great, in and of itself. But yeah, it can be painfully cringe when handled poorly and it's not a great thing when it's the only aspect of the character DC promotes. But it can also (and often is) amusing and helps gets his name out there to audiences who might not stumble upon him otherwise. I figure, if a new potential fan shows up for the cheesecake, they'll stay for the story. And if this is what it takes to get a bunch of twitter fans to buy a trade then great.

That valentine's day add was fantastic; the music and panel art was ridiculous and funny as hell and I see nothing wrong there. I laughed about that for half the day. As long as DC remembers that Dick is more than a pretty face and utilizes him well in the actual product I'm fine with them using his sex appeal in marketing.

----------


## Drako

Future State Nightwing #2 was great!

----------


## Restingvoice

> LMAO Someone at DC is very horny.
> 
> https://www.instagram.com/p/CLR4a6oFg8c/
> 
> Edit:
> 
> 
> 
> https://twitter.com/TomTaylorMade/st...597505/photo/1


*Sigh* 
*Unzips*




> Wasn't robin already with batman when they met superman? Dc makes it sound like robin came after the JL relationships. But robin was there at the beginning right?


Golden and Silver Age before. Robin was there at the formation of Justice League.

Post Crisis I'm unclear. Dick became Robin in Year Three. Superman met Batman when he was alone. I only know they move Joker, Two-Face, Catwoman, and most of the rogues before Robin in Long Halloween.  

New 52 Robin, the rogues, Superman and Justice League origins in the same year. 5 Years Ago was a busy year.

Rebirth... Dick was taken to the manor as a young child, became Robin at around 14-15 by his build in the flashback, then at 15-16 met the JL for the first time. Superman unclear. The rogues already existed in droves before Robin according to The War of Jokes and Riddles.

American Alien, Clark was inspired to become Superman after meeting Batman and Dick

Didio's unfulfilled timeline goes by Batman Year One, World's Finest and The Rogues Year Two, Robin and Justice League Year Three, Teen Titans Year Four

----------


## Frontier

> Huh after Red X, looks like we can add another name to Dick Grayson’s resume thanks to Batman/Catwoman #3, spoilers read at own risk 
> 
> *spoilers:*
>  Commissioner Grayson, according to Tom King in his alternate future when Helena Wayne is Batwoman Dick Grayson becomes Police Commissioner of Gotham. Kind of ironic a former Robin is lighting up the bat signal for Bruce’s Daughter but hey nice to see Dick’s years as a police officer go somewhere. 
> *end of spoilers*


Seems like something that would happen in the King-verse.

----------


## WonderNight

Looking at teen titans academy do you think dick might need a second team because TTA don't look to be a team that will be on alot of mission fighting the bad guys. It looking alot more like gotham academy with teen titans. Will dick need a team that goes out on missions etc?

----------


## OWL45

> Future State Nightwing #2 was great!


Yes it was. Honestly best Nightwing showing in a very long time.

----------


## sifighter

> Future State Nightwing #2 was great!


I agree, I really liked Dick and Jace's working relationship, I hope that gets carried over well into present day Jace stories or even the Future State Gotham ongoing.

----------


## HsssH

King-verse, haha, maybe it should gets its own official name? Earth-K?

----------


## Drako

It would be funny if Commissioner Grayson's son or daughter became Helena sidekick in that timeline.
Kinda like what happened in Earth 2 Society.

----------


## Drako

Oh, and i hope the electric Nunchaku made with the escrima sticks are here to stay, there were so badass!!

----------


## Rac7d*

> Oh, and i hope the electric Nunchaku made with the escrima sticks are here to stay, there were so badass!!


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dA6KPuUGQz4

----------


## Pohzee

They were a thing in Injustice first right? And then Arkham City and the New 52? I used to think it was super cool but now I think its a little visually distracting and takes away from Dick's acrobatics and the impact of his hits.

----------


## Drako

> They were a thing in Injustice first right? And then Arkham City and the New 52? I used to think it was super cool but now I think its a little visually distracting and takes away from Dick's acrobatics and the impact of his hits.


Started with Arkham City. 
He didn't use much in the comics, i can only remember during the Higgins run.

----------


## Rac7d*

> They were a thing in Injustice first right? And then Arkham City and the New 52? I used to think it was super cool but now I think its a little visually distracting and takes away from Dick's acrobatics and the impact of his hits.


its still a nice feather in his arsenal

----------


## Godlike13

> Oh, and i hope the electric Nunchaku made with the escrima sticks are here to stay, there were so badass!!


This is the best thing ever. Seriously I wanted to see his escrima sticks to have a nunchuck function since I was 12. It’s additional visual flair, and thats good so he’s not just the guy that flips good. They all flip, but how many pull out electric nunchucks.

----------


## Drako

I think it's safe to say that Dick will be in the Batman 89 book since it will have a Robin and he was part of the original script from Sam Hamm, the guy writing the new book.

SAM HAMM Explains Why ROBIN Was Cut From BATMAN ’89 Movie
https://13thdimension.com/sam-hamm-e...rom-batman-89/

----------


## Murrocko

> I think it's safe to say that Dick will be in the Batman 89 book since it will have a Robin and he was part of the original script from Sam Hamm, the guy writing the new book.
> 
> SAM HAMM Explains Why ROBIN Was Cut From BATMAN ’89 Movie
> https://13thdimension.com/sam-hamm-e...rom-batman-89/


Didn't they cast Marlon Wayanes in Batman Returns?

----------


## Drako

> Didn't they cast Marlon Wayanes in Batman Returns?


He was, indeed. Then he was cut off the movie but still got paid.

----------


## Frontier

> He was, indeed. Then he was cut off the movie but still got paid.


I guess it's nice to still get paid  :Stick Out Tongue: .

----------


## Avi

> Looking at teen titans academy do you think dick might need a second team because TTA don't look to be a team that will be on alot of mission fighting the bad guys. It looking alot more like gotham academy with teen titans. Will dick need a team that goes out on missions etc?


I don't really know what to expect of TTA yet regarding the older Titans. I'm guessing they'll be a focus later on or at least I hope so. He should at least flesh out what Dick's and Slade's deal is right now. 
I don't necessarily think Dick needs another team right now. I would like it more if they re-established the Titans' history. Either through a mini-series or back-up stories.   




> I think it's safe to say that Dick will be in the Batman 89 book since it will have a Robin and he was part of the original script from Sam Hamm, the guy writing the new book.
> 
> SAM HAMM Explains Why ROBIN Was Cut From BATMAN 89 Movie
> https://13thdimension.com/sam-hamm-e...rom-batman-89/


Would be cool if he is but I'm not so sure. The solicitation says "new Robin". That could mean new in this universe, but if it's Dick why not simply name him? 

The Nightwing #78 Preview is here. Very colorful: 
https://screenrant.com/nightwing-exc...campaign=SR-TW

----------


## Godlike13

Already 1000x better. A contemporary and aware writer with a fresh artist, the difference is night and day in just a few pages.

----------


## Restingvoice

Those twilight colors. Yes. Keep doing the crime in Bludhaven happens at twilight thing.
NW-78-C.jpg

Omg I didn't even realize

"The next thing you know the puppy will lost its memory and drive a cab" XD

----------


## Drako

> I don't really know what to expect of TTA yet regarding the older Titans. I'm guessing they'll be a focus later on or at least I hope so. He should at least flesh out what Dick's and Slade's deal is right now. 
> I don't necessarily think Dick needs another team right now. I would like it more if they re-established the Titans' history. Either through a mini-series or back-up stories.   
> 
> 
> 
> Would be cool if he is but I'm not so sure. The solicitation says "new Robin". That could mean new in this universe, but if it's Dick why not simply name him? 
> 
> The Nightwing #78 Preview is here. Very colorful: 
> https://screenrant.com/nightwing-exc...campaign=SR-TW


I'm guessing cause it's not Chris O'donnell.

The art in the preview is awesome. One month to go still, can't wait.

----------


## Pohzee

Those blue escrimas kinda remind me of the old LEGO Nightwing minifigure and the LEGO Batman games. Which I kinda dig

I was hoping to avoid any mention of Ric, even a meta joke, but this one works for me. Probably because its punchline isn't "hahaha look how bad we screwed you the reader over."

----------


## sifighter

> Those twilight colors. Yes. Keep doing the crime in Bludhaven happens at twilight thing.
> NW-78-C.jpg
> 
> Omg I didn't even realize
> 
> "The next thing you know the puppy will lost its memory and drive a cab" XD


I like Dick being playful at first but then he pulls a semi-Batman by being truly upset because he sees unbelievably cruel people. It feels right for Dick.

Like I can see Dick going "Okay I was going to go easy on you because your just a bunch of young idiots, but you pulled a gun on a dog so you're getting a whooping"

----------


## Drako

For some reason the preview in that site has one page missing.



https://www.facebook.com/28888328445...0918654918505/

----------


## BloodOps

god I love how the colors pop

Can't wait for this.

----------


## Ascended

Well those are some of the best Nightwing pages I've seen in years. Looking forward to it; even if this book ends up being nothing but Dick in Bludhaven and doesn't end up building towards a higher profile (writers always say "A-list" when writing Dick, rarely do they actually try to elevate him, much less make lasting progress) it'll be a delight to read *quality* Bludhaven-Nightwing again.  :Big Grin:

----------


## Immortal Hulk

This looks gorgeous. Gotta buy it!

----------


## Drako

> We can’t say too much yet, but this story is going to be life-changing for Dick Grayson, and will hopefully show why he’s one of the greatest heroes in @DCComics.


https://twitter.com/TomTaylorMade/st...59584793153536

----------


## Restingvoice

Bruno Redondo calls the puppy Bite-Wing :3

----------


## Frontier

That preview is peak Nightwing  :Smile: .

----------


## Restingvoice

Someone on Tumblr took notice that the bad guys in the preview are not the typical lower class street criminal who's usually POC with economic difficulty but privileged college douches. 

While I haven't seen Batman family beating up street criminals these days because they usually go too epic, the last one I remember was the robber that almost killed Gotham Guy's parents in an alley and he fits that type.

----------


## Frontier

> Someone on Tumblr took notice that the bad guys in the preview are not the typical lower class street criminal who's usually POC with economic difficulty but privileged college douches. 
> 
> While I haven't seen Batman family beating up street criminals these days because they usually go too epic, the last one I remember was the robber that almost killed Gotham Guy's parents in an alley and he fits that type.


Feels like the type of criminals Taylor would use.

----------


## Drako

There is some Advanced reviews and some first thoughts coming out of Nightwing #78.



https://screenrant.com/nightwing-rev...campaign=SR-TW




> SPOILER FREE REVIEW: Nightwing #78 (#DCComics @TomTaylorMade @Bruno_Redondo_F @fxstudiocolor #WesAbbott) marks a bright new future for the fan favorite character. With a superstar team along for the ride, fans will be rejoicing on 3/16!


https://comic-watch.com/comic-book-r...t-want-to-help




> NIGHTWING #78 is the 1st issue for new ongoing team @TomTaylorMade @Bruno_Redondo_F @fxstudiocolor! This book is SO damn good, I still can't believe it's real. I can't wait for you all to read it to laugh, cry, & fall in love w/ Dick Grayson all over again with me 💙🖤 OUT 3/16!


https://twitter.com/jesswchen/status...64008353947649




> I've read the first issue of Nightwing by @TomTaylorMade @Bruno_Redondo_F and @fxstudiocolor and it's incredibly good. You may think that I say so because they are my friends and I'm supposed to say but trust me, it's a superior comic book.
> 
> It just takes a couple pages to realize how good it is. The script, drawing and colors... Everyone is on the top of their game. You guys can't miss it!


https://twitter.com/Sampere_art/stat...13602031509506




> I just got to read a sneak advance of Nightwing #78 by @TomTaylorMade with incredible art by @Bruno_Redondo_F and @fxstudiocolor. It is absolute excellence.


https://twitter.com/DarickR/status/1363229511274299395

----------


## Avi

They are really hyping the title up, which is cool.   :Big Grin:   I'm just afraid they are hyping too much, which is why I'm not gonna read the full reviews. If I know too much I'll get too nitpicky once it's out.

I'm still not over how perfectly Dick Grayson the 2nd Campbell cover is. I like it more each time I see it. I hope that level of detail carries over to the Black & White short story.

----------


## Ascended

Glad the early reviews are so positive. I don't put much stock in reviews these days but I'll still take this as a good sign. I really do feel like we're turning a corner after the last few years of awfulness. I dunno if we're gonna walk out of this year with Nightwing being a heavily pushed IP that DC throws in your face at every turn and in every media format, but I definitely think the company is done intentionally shitting on him. 

And yeah, that Campbell cover is probably one of the best Nightwing covers I've ever seen. I want that on my wall, yknow?

----------


## HsssH

I was looking thru my "reading lists" and noticed that I haven't really checked anything from Batman title when Dick had the cowl. I think Winnick and Daniel wrote those issues? Were they any good?

----------


## Drako

> I was looking thru my "reading lists" and noticed that I haven't really checked anything from Batman title when Dick had the cowl. I think Winnick and Daniel wrote those issues? Were they any good?


Winnick did some by the numbers story that ended with a cliffhanger that was never even revisited. Tony Daniel was better, especially the art, but it wasn't some master piece. 

If you want to read, go for it, it not bad IMO. It's just not that great.

----------


## HsssH

I take it was better than Ric.

----------


## Drako

> I take it was better than Ric.


that goes without saying  :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## Astralabius

> Glad the early reviews are so positive. I don't put much stock in reviews these days but I'll still take this as a good sign. I really do feel like we're turning a corner after the last few years of awfulness. I dunno if we're gonna walk out of this year with Nightwing being a heavily pushed IP that DC throws in your face at every turn and in every media format, but I definitely think the company is done intentionally shitting on him. 
> 
> And yeah, that Campbell cover is probably one of the best Nightwing covers I've ever seen. I want that on my wall, yknow?


I don't know how to feel about comic reviews. Most of them give way too high scores in my opinion. I've read so many issues that were just okay, or in some cases straight up bad and messy only to see them get 10/10 reviews online.
I know a lot of stuff comes down to personal taste, but a 10/10? Really? For what? And for so many stories?
Most comic reviews don't seem all that helpful to me because of those reasons.

----------


## Godlike13

The amount of reviews is what im more interested in then the actual reviews themselves.

----------


## Ascended

> I don't know how to feel about comic reviews. Most of them give way too high scores in my opinion. I've read so many issues that were just okay, or in some cases straight up bad and messy only to see them get 10/10 reviews online.
> I know a lot of stuff comes down to personal taste, but a 10/10? Really? For what? And for so many stories?
> Most comic reviews don't seem all that helpful to me because of those reasons.


And this is why I don't put much stock in them. But I'm still gonna take it as a good sign that there's a bunch of reviews and they're all good. After the last few years I'll take any positive thing I can reach, even if it's a stretch.

----------


## bearman

I understand all the arguments against, but in- universe, you are either a Leaguer or something less. Dick needs to wind up there. Bruce can leave.

----------


## Drako

Anyone got to read this? I think it's available in the DC Universe Infinite but this service is for US only.

https://screenrant.com/nightwing-fly...em-live-comic/

----------


## WonderNight

> I understand all the arguments against, but in- universe, you are either a Leaguer or something less. Dick needs to wind up there. Bruce can leave.


Bruce doesn't have to leave but yes its way passed time nightwing joins the big leagues.

----------


## Rac7d*

> Bruce doesn't have to leave but yes its way passed time nightwing joins the big leagues.


Meh the JL is either super
Exclusive or a free for all it not a big deal

----------


## WonderNight

> Meh the JL is either super
> Exclusive or a free for all it not a big deal


Bigger than any other superhero team in the dcu, teen titans has be a superhero daycare.

----------


## Rac7d*

> Bigger than any other superhero team in the dcu, teen titans has be a superhero daycare.


Meh 
It’s used to spotlight new characters 
Don’t expect dick on it

----------


## WonderNight

> Meh 
> It’s used to spotlight new characters 
> Don’t expect dick on it


Just have donna (the heart of the titans) run the school and let dick move up.  Dick's solo is about to be very grounded so give him a team book that's very epic in nature. 

Would be cool if dick and wally relaunch JLA.

----------


## Avi

I don't think the normal JL is a good place for Dick. I'd rather see him among JL International or United. Because, yes, globetrotting. After whatever Checkmate will do, Tiger and Dick could work together again and establish such a team. Of course, I have no illusions that such a thing would ever happen. Especially not while we don't even know if Dick will in any way retain his connections to Spyral in a meaningful way.

I think as of now TTA is a pretty good place to be. I hope Dick gets his arc there once Deathstroke Inc. comes into play. For once, a Titans writer seems interested in giving some spotlight to Dick, which is satisfying to see, and I hope it pays off.




> Anyone got to read this? I think it's available in the DC Universe Infinite but this service is for US only.
> 
> https://screenrant.com/nightwing-fly...em-live-comic/


Nope. But I am awaiting its release on Comixology. DC said that'll take about 30 days when they announced Let Them Live.

----------


## Drako

The last writer to do something great with Nightwing liked Taylor first issue.




> Got a sneak at the beginning of @TomTaylorMade 's new NIGHTWING run with ish 78! Tom and Bruno are doing the stuff I wanted to see in Nightwing story... personal moments, lots of good-natured heroism, and neon Bludhaven! RECOMMENDED!


https://twitter.com/HackinTimSeeley/...91885604581377

I found this tweet here interesting too.




> Jealous of anything you read that u wished you had thought of when you were writing the title?





> Probably jealous a little that we were probably working under a different set of rules. What Rebirth and Infinite Frontier set as goals is pretty different.


https://twitter.com/FallenLantern92/...18369522147333

And Kyle Higgins:




> I’m very excited that a good creative team finally has some creative freedom on Nightwing


https://twitter.com/KyleDHiggins/sta...26749829472261




> It’s not really a secret. And I say it with no malice. But ask any Nightwing writer of the last ten years what their experience was like, and you’ll get similar answers.


https://twitter.com/KyleDHiggins/sta...31074068783108

----------


## dropkickjake

Really encouraged to hear that bludhaven is neon! Also, Im hopeful to hear about the creative freedom. Higgins was right, that was absolutely no secret at all.

----------


## Ascended

> Really encouraged to hear that bludhaven is neon! Also, Im hopeful heard about the creative freedom. Higgins was right, that was absolutely no secret at all.


If Seeley gives this a thumbs up, it's pretty much a fact it's gonna be worth reading. That guy is one of the few writers of the last decade who really seemed to not only understand Dick as a character, but his position and role in the wider DCU, and knew how to grow that into something even bigger. That DC tied his hands behind his back is one of the great lost opportunities of DC these past ten years.

Only way it could possibly be better is if dropkick and I were writing it.  :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## Pohzee

> Anyone got to read this? I think it's available in the DC Universe Infinite but this service is for US only.
> 
> https://screenrant.com/nightwing-fly...em-live-comic/


Uh, yeah. It was kind of amazing.

----------


## WonderNight

Well I just hope that they can make nightwing different from all the other bats out there.

How do you think they'll make nightwing more relevant and important in the greater dcu?

----------


## Restingvoice

> Well I just hope that they can make nightwing different from all the other bats out there.
> 
> How do you think they'll make nightwing more relevant and important in the greater dcu?


The most important seat right now is The Totality, the combination of Justice League and Legion of Doom to combat threats on the level of Perpetua and Batman Who Laughs, but that's even more elite than the League, whose only known Bat members right now is Batman and Talia, representing Justice and Doom respectively

The set up after Dark Nights Metal, where Dick leads the Titans to train new emerging metahumans is very important, but they screw it up by framing it as Titans second chance to fix their mistake instead of an important task in general

Other ideas would be him leading a branch of Justice League similar to how Cyborg leads Justice League Odyssey, for what task I do not know

The idea of Dick being the lead spy of DCU can work, but only if they have plot relevant to the whole DCU that involves other books as well, because there is no spy corner of the DCU. Grayson was the only book. 

Even in Titans or even in a Justice League, if the other books or universe are not involved, it's just gonna be their own corner, and Justice League Odyssey tanked harder than Titans.

----------


## WonderNight

If a big part of infinite frontier is about moving the dcu forward than batman should join the totality and nightwing move up the justice league.

----------


## Restingvoice

> If a big part of infinite frontier is about moving the dcu forward than batman should join the totality and nightwing move up the justice league.


The level of threat that requires The Totality would be really rare. In the interim he's staying in the main League.

----------


## HsssH

I doubt that this Totality thing is going to last, very likely that couple of years later everyone will have forgotten that it even existed.

----------


## Grayson - The Dark Heir

I honestly don't think there is a "greater DCU" anymore. Stuff like the JL and even the Titans is all the same, it's just big combination IPs. Nothing the JL does is actually any more important than anything else, it just gets better marketing and becomes event generators. Granted, Bendis' run hasn't started yet, but besides his own character Naomi being added, it looks pretty by the numbers to me. Switched around a few characters for the illusion of change, and that's about it. Not saying they can't do something cool or interesting, just that it's not going to be "pushing" the universe forward or anything like that.

As much as I used to want Dick to take bigger roles in-universe, I'm not even sure there are any. The biggest roles would just put him in the background, like the Totality, or stick him in crowded groups where he's just the Black Adam or Hippolyta, a substitute character or marketing bait. 

Honestly, I'm grateful for Snyder's JL run and the filler runs that came after because it really put the JL book in perspective for me lol. It seemed important because of the marketing, but as soon as Snyder's events started up, the JL book just went largely forgotten or ignored until the event was over and readers had to return to the JL book for the next event's buildup. 

Anyways, back on topic. I feel Nightwing is just fine doing the things he's about to be doing in Infinite Frontier. He has a real purpose in both books (well, it's hard to say he actually has a "purpose" in Bludhaven, but Taylor's run seems like it's making the case), and that's better than forcing him into places that'll be a dead-end for him. Just have to wait and see where things go from here.

----------


## Restingvoice

> I doubt that this Totality thing is going to last, very likely that couple of years later everyone will have forgotten that it even existed.


A couple of years sound enough if Williamson's gonna continue the thread they left off in Metal... that the next, bigger threat would be the other Hands, the brothers of Perpetua




> I honestly don't think there is a "greater DCU" anymore. Stuff like the JL and even the Titans is all the same, it's just big combination IPs. Nothing the JL does is actually any more important than anything else, it just gets better marketing and becomes event generators.


DCU level event generating is what makes them important. Metal is removed from other stories it's almost an alternate universe but Year of The Villain affect all books, and during Johns run, it's where the overarching story starts and ends. 

But it depends if the writer's capable or want to generate events or not. If not, then it's gonna be like 90s-2000s JLA where it runs its own story and not more important than other books.

----------


## dropkickjake

Might just be me, but if I was given the choice between Dick's ongoing being good, character driven, and given creative freedom OR him being at the center of a "larger DCU event" or on the JL, I'd pick the good ongoing ten times out of ten. Seeley's review is the single most encouraging thing I've seen so far.

----------


## Vordan

> The last writer to do something great with Nightwing liked Taylor first issue.
> 
> 
> 
> https://twitter.com/HackinTimSeeley/...91885604581377
> 
> I found this tweet here interesting too.
> 
> 
> ...


Yeah it was an open secret who kept f****** with Nightwing and derailing plans. So many great runs we could’ve had just kept getting ruined by editorial bull**** and crippling the character’s potential.

----------


## Restingvoice

Higgins deleted his account.

----------


## AmiMizuno

Someone told me that editors won't have has much control. I hope that's true because I dislike how Dc generally traps him only in the Batfam. He is more than just a Batfam. They keep saying he is a respected hero to many others. Have other heroes join in his comics. Not just Batfam. I would love Superman and Nightwing miniseries

----------


## Restingvoice

> Someone told me that editors won't have has much control. I hope that's true because I dislike how Dc generally traps him only in the Batfam. He is more than just a Batfam. They keep saying he is a respected hero to many others. Have other heroes join in his comics. Not just Batfam. I would love Superman and Nightwing miniseries


The known micromanager, and he's fired because of it, is Didio, but if he's the only one, then good.

Btw most of the Nightwing review I saw so far has been really vague, but ScreenRant has hints of the content

"Dick may or may not need to save the city by the run's end, but this issue wisely decides to start things small."

"One word that every single page of this book evokes is confidence. There are no big reveals, no pointless cameos, and the biggest fight scene is all about Dick saving a dog from some goons." 

"It's telling that the issue's big fight scene sees Nightwing saving a three-legged puppy from a group of thugs. The bits of a larger plot in this issue hint that he'll take on political corruption and organized crime later in the series, but here, in the first issue, the creative thought it important to show that no problem is too small for this hero."

----------


## Avi

Oh damn, Higgins deleted his account? That's suspicious timing. Especially because Radiant Black just came out, he depends on self-promotion.

Bob Harras was also on Nightwing up to #74, who is gone too and is also one of the editors, who people think Jimenez might have meant when he criticized editorial's handling of Rebirth's Superwoman a few days ago.

A slice-of-hero-life Issue with some plot threads sounds good. 

All the promotion honestly makes me wonder why they didn't slap a one on it too or decided on legacy numbering considering they missed the opportunity to bring new creatives in for Dick's return as Nightwing. I hope sticking to the numbering means they'll integrate the things fans liked about Rebirth (and forget the rest after their joke).

----------


## Mr. White

Caved in and read the AIPT Review.

I'm doing my best not to get my hopes up but damn it's hard. 

Apart from the review itself, I have a high degree of faith in the creative team and the preview so far is good. 

Can't wait for this.

Had initially thought _"why not relaunch the series as a new volume"_ but then remembered Witchblade and Marz coming onboard at issue 80. 

That worked well for all so...

----------


## Godlike13

> Oh damn, Higgins deleted his account? That's suspicious timing. Especially because Radiant Black just came out, he depends on self-promotion.
> 
> Bob Harras was also on Nightwing up to #74, who is gone too and is also one of the editors, who people think Jimenez might have meant when he criticized editorial's handling of Rebirth's Superwoman a few days ago.
> 
> A slice-of-hero-life Issue with some plot threads sounds good. 
> 
> All the promotion honestly makes me wonder why they didn't slap a one on it too or decided on legacy numbering considering they missed the opportunity to bring new creatives in for Dick's return as Nightwing. I hope sticking to the numbering means they'll integrate the things fans liked about Rebirth (and forget the rest after their joke).


Ya, I know Didio is a lightning rod but when it came to Ric that has more of Harras finger prints with his go to protected creators.

----------


## Restingvoice

> Ya, I know Didio is a lightning rod but when it came to Ric that has more of Harras finger prints with his go to protected creators.


protected creators?

----------


## Godlike13

Why do you think guys like Lobdell were around for as long as he was.

----------


## Rac7d*

> Higgins deleted his account.


Always screenshot

----------


## Drako

> Oh damn, Higgins deleted his account? That's suspicious timing. Especially because Radiant Black just came out, he depends on self-promotion.
> 
> Bob Harras was also on Nightwing up to #74, who is gone too and is also one of the editors, who people think Jimenez might have meant when he criticized editorial's handling of Rebirth's Superwoman a few days ago.
> 
> A slice-of-hero-life Issue with some plot threads sounds good. 
> 
> All the promotion honestly makes me wonder why they didn't slap a one on it too or decided on legacy numbering considering they missed the opportunity to bring new creatives in for Dick's return as Nightwing. I hope sticking to the numbering means they'll integrate the things fans liked about Rebirth (and forget the rest after their joke).


I think they decided to keep the number cause we are close to number 100. It will be only the second time a Nightwing book reach that.

----------


## Restingvoice

> Why do you think guys like Lobdell were around for as long as he was.


Oh right, I forgot he and Harras are old pals from Marvel

----------


## Rac7d*

Dickbabs has been confirmed for titans season 3

----------


## Drako

> Dickbabs has been confirmed for titans season 3


Let's not treat everything Vullein said as confirmed. At least not until it made official in some way. I know he has a good track record, but still are rumors.

It's like saying everything Bleeding Cool write is right.

----------


## dropkickjake

Higgins deleting his account right after tweeting a complaint about editorial is sus as hell.

----------


## Drako

Did he really deleted his account?

Maybe he regretted and got back online? Cause everything is normal now.
https://twitter.com/KyleDHiggins

----------


## dropkickjake

full discolure, i never checked and took this forum's word for it. Hopefully it was just a weird glitch or something.

----------


## Frontier

What happened to Higgins?

----------


## Avi

> I think they decided to keep the number cause we are close to number 100. It will be only the second time a Nightwing book reach that.


That makes sense. They better plan something big for it.  :Stick Out Tongue: 




> Did he really deleted his account?
> 
> Maybe he regretted and got back online? Cause everything is normal now.
> https://twitter.com/KyleDHiggins


Strange. He was definitely gone for a few hours.

----------


## Restingvoice

> Did he really deleted his account?
> 
> Maybe he regretted and got back online? Cause everything is normal now.
> https://twitter.com/KyleDHiggins


Yup. When I clicked your links of his comments on Seeley, the tweet is gone "this tweet is from an account that doesn't exit"

Well now it's back. So maybe it wasn't a deletion, just went private or something.

----------


## Godlike13

> I think they decided to keep the number cause we are close to number 100. It will be only the second time a Nightwing book reach that.


I don’t think a #100 would sell as well as a new #1 that potentially resets the deflation. So I’m not sure a #100 Nightwing is that big a deal to DC. I think it more has to do with a combination of them not willing, or being able to, invest the money and work that goes into relauching a new #1 with Nightwing, and DC needing continuing to produce a certain about of product for suppliers and employees. They couldn’t just cull every ongoing as their publishing was already low, and the system depends of DC’s producing product.

----------


## Pohzee

From a sales perspective a #1 might've been better, but as a fan I like to see bigger numbers.

----------


## dropkickjake

I feel like legacy numbering would be pretty cool. That'd put him at what, 231? Maybe 235 if you include that first mini he had?

----------


## Drako

> I feel like legacy numbering would be pretty cool. That'd put him at what, 231? Maybe 235 if you include that first mini he had?


Nightwing (1995) = 4 Issues
Nightwing (1996) = 153 Issues \ 2 Annuals \ 2 specials (#0,5 and #1.000.000)
Nightwing (2011) = 30 Issues \ 1 Annuals \ 1 special (#0)
Nightwing (2016) = 77 Issues \ 3 Annuals 

Total until now: 264 issues \ 6 Annuals \ 3 specials.

With we include Grayson as his solo books:

Grayson (2014) = 20 issues \ 3 Annuals \ 1 special (Futures End)

Total: 284 issues \ 9 Annuals \  4 specials.

----------


## dropkickjake

yeah somehow new52 being its own volume totally slipped my mind.

----------


## HsssH

So looks like they might do a renumbering for #300?

As for Nightwing having more creative freedom now, I'm not sure, isn't this what they always say about everything? Lets maybe wait till something shocking happens in Batman and if it doesn't force a storyline on Nightwing.

----------


## Drako

by Jorge Jimenez.

https://www.instagram.com/p/CL2DjfZKZSW/

----------


## Frontier

> by Jorge Jimenez.
> 
> https://www.instagram.com/p/CL2DjfZKZSW/


Jorge knows how to draw Superheroes  :Smile: .

----------


## Drako

Add one more to the hype train:




> Okay, I am in a blood feud with @TomTaylorMade, but NIGHTWING #1 is one of the best Batbooks I've read in years. No hype, it doesn't need it, it's that good.
> Art by Bruno Redondo is SPECTACULAR.
> 
> Put it on your lists. Trust me on this.


https://twitter.com/GailSimone/statu...26640775933954

----------


## Restingvoice

"DC talked to me about a number of projects after Suicide Squad & Injustice: YZ but as soon as Nightwing was mentioned with @Bruno_Redondo_F, I leapt at it." - Tom, how he got the job

----------


## Avi

It's getting to the point at which it's easier to name the people that haven't read an advanced copy already. xD I don't know if I can take one more review. The 16th is still so far away.

Good to know that Taylor and Redondo really wanted Nightwing even if that has been pretty clear just by the detail and thought they are seemingly putting into the run.




> by Jorge Jimenez.
> 
> https://www.instagram.com/p/CL2DjfZKZSW/


So much kinetic energy!  :EEK!:  Dick looks ready to summersault off that roof and take down multiple people at once. In my humble opinion Dick should always look like that.

I'm also getting Bleach! vibes for some reason.

----------


## 9th.

> Nightwing (1995) = 4 Issues
> Nightwing (1996) = 153 Issues \ 2 Annuals \ 2 specials (#0,5 and #1.000.000)
> Nightwing (2011) = 30 Issues \ 1 Annuals \ 1 special (#0)
> Nightwing (2016) = 77 Issues \ 3 Annuals 
> 
> Total until now: 264 issues \ 6 Annuals \ 3 specials.
> 
> With we include Grayson as his solo books:
> 
> ...


Is the 95 series any good? I don't think I've ever bothered to read it.

----------


## Restingvoice

> Is the 95 series any good? I don't think I've ever bothered to read it.


It's gritty, and surprisingly similar to Grayson in the sense that he tackles international crime lord, but with a darker and serious tone.  
The only thing ruining it is his mane of hair.

----------


## John Venus

Do you think Bruce uses an excel file to keep track of all the Robins?  

nightwing.jpg

----------


## Rac7d*

Officially confirming shriek for suicide squad

----------


## 9th.

> It's gritty, and surprisingly similar to Grayson in the sense that he tackles international crime lord, but with a darker and serious tone.  
> The only thing ruining it is his mane of hair.


Thanks, that does sound kinda interesting. I might read it when I get in a 90s mood.

----------


## Frontier

> Do you think Bruce uses an excel file to keep track of all the Robins?  
> 
> nightwing.jpg


Well, not for the Robins specifically  :Stick Out Tongue: .

----------


## John Venus

s480x640.jpg

^I wish we could have gotten an ongoing in that style.

----------


## K. Jones

My hype for Nightwing # 1 is growing lately.

Love that kinetic Jimenez art. I'm still not into the zig-zags on Nightwing's calves but like ... I like that there's something there to show the kinetic energy and so that his body isn't just a black silhouette only hovering above the chest/shoulders/bird with color, and like that keeping things simple it's black suit and blue accents, but I'm just not into the fact that it's a swooshy zig-zag. I haven't really thought about what I'd do differently, but zig-zag just feels like ... I dunno, Alt-Universe one-off Dark Flash enemy design motif, and doesn't necessary rock with Nightwing's "nocturnal bird ... hey I'll use every descriptor I can as long as we don't say the word 'owl'" iconography. You know, more "wings" on your legs don't make much sense (unless you're Namor) and it gets pretty over-done the more you think of "what could it be" but maybe they could just be bands, bars, a little striping or some stylized shin-guards or something?

----------


## Ascended

Those stripes on his calves bug the hell out of me, honestly. There's just no design justification for them; they don't share an aesthetic with anything else on the suit, it doesn't evoke any kind of "bird" or "flight" motif, or anything else I can think of that connects to Dick's character, history, or talents. 

I prefer the unbroken black (including mask), myself, with only the blue chevron (with finger strips, of course) or bird emblem. If some blue has to be on the calves, then stick with the angles used for the chevron and bird emblem (same angles), or mimic the finger strips, if those're included too. 

And I'm getting kinda hyped for the new issue too....hard to shake off the cynicism of the last few years but it does look like DC is putting some actual, legit effort in.

----------


## AmiMizuno

Yea. I hope the writers have the freedom. Because I would love it if Dick can have other characters appear in the comics more. Not just the Batfam. I mean with Wally coming back I hope they have him Guest Star

----------


## Kaled

Originally posted by Drako



> Nightwing (1995) = 4 Issues
> Nightwing (1996) = 153 Issues \ 2 Annuals \ 2 specials (#0,5 and #1.000.000)
> Nightwing (2011) = 30 Issues \ 1 Annuals \ 1 special (#0)
> Nightwing (2016) = 77 Issues \ 3 Annuals
> 
> Total until now: 264 issues \ 6 Annuals \ 3 specials.
> 
> With we include Grayson as his solo books:
> 
> ...


Actually the total is 285 issues. You forgot Nightwing: Alfred's Return (1995) Nightwing_Alfred%27s_Return_Vol_1_1.jpg that led into the first Nightwing mini-series.

----------


## Avi

I honestly don't mind the blue on Dick's calves. In the original design, they looked more like one small stripe and one big stripe. I prefer them to the streaks because it helped make them seem more like the wings of the bird on his chest wrapping around his body. There is a certain energy to that.

Very controversial in a thread about Nightwing, but I don't want the finger stripes back. Some artists still make them work, but most often they look outdated to me. I'm a fan of the gloves.

That said I wouldn't mind if DC experimented more with Dick's design, especially in out of continuity stories. Just no more clunky chin guards, please.

----------


## Restingvoice

I like the calves stripes. It's just style.
tumblr_53ece18f4b1a61d6a590342c5f776e52_94c53b25_1280.jpg
Also, this is hot. 
By the way I like how in Bludhaven that scene is sunny twilight, but because Jimenez is drawing Gotham, he made it night and raining. It's like viewed from Batman's depressed eyelet, or in this case, The Spectre

----------


## Batman Begins 2005

When does the Nightwing issue with the new creative team come out and what number? Brain freeze today. Thanks.

----------


## Drako

> When does the Nightwing issue with the new creative team come out and what number? Brain freeze today. Thanks.


Issue 78, March 16.

----------


## Restingvoice

How fated. March 16 will be the date I find out if I still get to keep my house or not (developer in debt, unfinished certification process, long story). I could use the motivation.

----------


## Bad Witch

Imagine caring so much about a tiny detail on characters costume *shakes head* 

I'm really looking forward to #78 and everything in seeing online is ramping my excitement up. I'm really trying to lower my expectations and it's hard. I really hope it's good.

----------


## byrd156

> Issue 78, March 16.


It's close. I'm ready to jump back into comics again.

----------


## Ascended

> Imagine caring so much about a tiny detail on characters costume *shakes head*


"Caring" might be a strong word. Have an opinion on? Sure. Oh, Avi's got a point about a lot of artists not being able to pull off the finger strips. Kyle Rayner's old crab mask was like that too; some artists just could not figure that thing out, but the ones who did made it work really well. 

And Resting, I hope things work out right for you. Best of luck to you and your's!

----------


## sifighter

> How fated. March 16 will be the date I find out if I still get to keep my house or not (developer in debt, unfinished certification process, long story). I could use the motivation.


I’m very sorry to hear that, hope all ends well.

----------


## Frontier

> How fated. March 16 will be the date I find out if I still get to keep my house or not (developer in debt, unfinished certification process, long story). I could use the motivation.


Wishing you luck, Restingvoice!

----------


## The World

> Those stripes on his calves bug the hell out of me, honestly. There's just no design justification for them; they don't share an aesthetic with anything else on the suit, it doesn't evoke any kind of "bird" or "flight" motif, or anything else I can think of that connects to Dick's character, history, or talents. 
> 
> I prefer the unbroken black (including mask), myself, with only the blue chevron (with finger strips, of course) or bird emblem. If some blue has to be on the calves, then stick with the angles used for the chevron and bird emblem (same angles), or mimic the finger strips, if those're included too. 
> 
> And I'm getting kinda hyped for the new issue too....hard to shake off the cynicism of the last few years but it does look like DC is putting some actual, legit effort in.



Yeah it just looks random and garish. I could accept a blue cross section that indicates the top of his boots but his current design just looks randomly put together with those splashes on his calves.

----------


## Restingvoice

> I’m very sorry to hear that, hope all ends well.





> Wishing you luck, Restingvoice!


Thanks. Probably gonna be picking fights with some online trolls for stress relief.

By the way, the Nightwing Freefalling From Orbit story is out apparently. What was the book title again?

----------


## Drako

> Thanks. Probably gonna be picking fights with some online trolls for stress relief.
> 
> By the way, the Nightwing Freefalling From Orbit story is out apparently. What was the book title again?


Let Them Live!- Unpublished Tales from the DC Vault #2

----------


## Restingvoice

> Let Them Live!- Unpublished Tales from the DC Vault #2


Thankies. It looks to be as awesome as the premise and that one time he went Kill Bill saving Damian

----------


## Rac7d*

That let them live nook was great 
Very Nightwing, it’s nice to see Dick just interact with cyborg

----------


## Restingvoice

tumblr_ca1de19a36c04ccd64de3173c10233e8_e5632c7a_640.jpg
Get off the page, Ambush! I wanna see some dick!

----------


## dropkickjake

Yeah that falling from low earth orbit issue was fantastic. Wonder why DC didn't publish it initially.

----------


## Pohzee

> Yeah that falling from low earth orbit issue was fantastic. Wonder why DC didn't publish it initially.


You said it yourself, it was a good Nightwing story

----------


## Mr. White

> You said it yourself, it was a good Nightwing story


^Bazinga

Was actually a very good one-shot.

That story was miles better than the entire Ric fiasco (sorry to open old wounds).

----------


## HsssH

Haven't read it yet, but are there any story hints there at what point it could have been published?

----------


## Avi

> Haven't read it yet, but are there any story hints there at what point it could have been published?


It was originally a Grayson one-shot that Lanzing and Kelly wrote after Batman & Robin Eternal. That's how they got on Grayson after Seeley and King were pulled off due to Rebirth. Sounds as if it was a test pitch. If not to Lanzing and Kelly then to DC.

Here is Lanzing's Twitter thread on the topic.

----------


## HsssH

I wonder if they offered and extend gig on Nightwing after Seeley's run ended instead of couple of issues.

----------


## Murrocko

Man... that was such a solid one shot. Loved how competent they made Dick. Leading the Bat-Fam plus Cyborg. Smiling the entire time while also kicking ass. I need these guys working on Nightwing stories more often. Let them handle the annuals or a mini series

----------


## AmiMizuno

I often wonder. I know many don't want Dick to get a job per and the ones who do want him to be a cop again. I also notice a few that say EMT. What do you guys think? Some also say Social worker. I mean with how Bludhaven is social worker would give him a chance to investigation people

----------


## Pohzee

Dick absolutely cannot be a cop again.

----------


## dropkickjake

"normal" jobs are a hard no from me.

----------


## Digifiend

Dick HAS a job, doesn't he? Headmaster of the Roy Harper Academy (aka Teen Titans Academy)?

----------


## Restingvoice

> Dick HAS a job, doesn't he? Headmaster of the Roy Harper Academy (aka Teen Titans Academy)?


I forget that it is an actual paying job since it's public and parents actually send their kids with permission

How about his guise in Bludhaven though

----------


## Godlike13

He should hit the tables for money. Embrace Bludhaven as gambling town and engrain him into it.

----------


## Drako

> He should hit the tables for money. Embrace Bludhaven as gambling town and engrain him into it.


It makes a lot of sense for him to get a job at a casino in this new version of Bludhaven.

----------


## Rac7d*

> It makes a lot of sense for him to get a job at a casino in this new version of Bludhaven.


He works nights so he cant

----------


## Godlike13

Im saying he should gamble for money. Playing into Bludhaven, and playing up a risk reward lifestyle.

----------


## byrd156

> "normal" jobs are a hard no from me.


Same. Dick has only ever known a crazy life. Sitting down for a 9-5 job isn't something I want to see anymore for him.

----------


## 9th.

> "normal" jobs are a hard no from me.


I'd be damned if I work a normal job while i'm a superhero. I'm not going to be a cashier at Walmart if I gotta dodge bullets and perch off rooftops everyday, I'm going to do something extra.

----------


## Drako

Chuck Dixon gave Dick a lot a money in his run by a trust fund the Grayson's made for him and Lucius worked on. Taylor looks like will do something similiar with Alfred. 

Unless he gave up all the money he inherited from Alfred, this problem is already solved.

----------


## Grayson - The Dark Heir

Exactly, Dick doesn't need a day job in this run since he'll spend his time outside the mask helping the city using Alfred's money, or at least that's what the solicits have hinted at so far.

I do have to wonder how official Teen Titans Academy is, like is it recognized as an actual secondary school of some sort? Is it enough to get the students to college? I also don't think a single class of students is going to be enough to cover the costs of running a giant tower, so I imagine they had to take out loans (or received helps from... Ollie? Bruce doesn't quite have the money to donate anymore). I highly doubt any of this will be answered, which is fine by me. Would be interesting if any of it was though lol.

----------


## Frontier

> Exactly, Dick doesn't need a day job in this run since he'll spend his time outside the mask helping the city using Alfred's money, or at least that's what the solicits have hinted at so far.
> 
> I do have to wonder how official Teen Titans Academy is, like is it recognized as an actual secondary school of some sort? Is it enough to get the students to college? I also don't think a single class of students is going to be enough to cover the costs of running a giant tower, so I imagine they had to take out loans (or received helps from... Ollie? Bruce doesn't quite have the money to donate anymore). I highly doubt any of this will be answered, which is fine by me. Would be interesting if any of it was though lol.


All the nitty gritty of Superhero schools  :Stick Out Tongue: .

----------


## Digifiend

> Exactly, Dick doesn't need a day job in this run since he'll spend his time outside the mask helping the city using Alfred's money, or at least that's what the solicits have hinted at so far.
> 
> I do have to wonder how official Teen Titans Academy is, like is it recognized as an actual secondary school of some sort? Is it enough to get the students to college? I also don't think a single class of students is going to be enough to cover the costs of running a giant tower, so I imagine they had to take out loans (or received helps from... Ollie? Bruce doesn't quite have the money to donate anymore). I highly doubt any of this will be answered, which is fine by me. Would be interesting if any of it was though lol.


Ollie would have good reason to invest in the Titans Academy since Emiko will be going there. It does make sense for the Justice League, and therefore Green Arrow, to fund it. Besides, it's named in Roy's honour, so that's another reason for Ollie to support it. The League was also the finance source for the previous Titans team too (which was even based at the Hall of Justice instead of Titans Tower).

----------


## Murrocko

I feel like Dick shouldn't have a day job, but maybe something along the lines of running charities for kids. Head of the Flying Orphans Foundation.

----------


## 9th.

> I feel like Dick shouldn't have a day job, but maybe something along the lines of running charities for kids. Head of the Flying Orphans Foundation.


That's exactly what I envision for him

----------


## byrd156

> All the nitty gritty of Superhero schools .


I want to see the lesson plans.  :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## bearman

I have long thought that Dick should head up the Martha Wayne Foundation... a perfect cover to go globe hopping, looking for folks to help.

----------


## AmiMizuno

I mean in all honest he would need to have a job that will at least has him in the fry a lot. I did think cop was one or maybe social worker. By that I mean that runs a youth center. Has at times many of those are used to run drugs. It gives Dick a chance to help others and travel a lot.

One thing I kind of wonder. If Red X is now in the comics. What about Jump City? Should we ever see Jump City in Titans or Dick Grayson's comics?

----------


## Restingvoice

> I feel like Dick shouldn't have a day job, but maybe something along the lines of running charities for kids. Head of the Flying Orphans Foundation.


I misread that as Flying Heads of the Orphans and let me tell you... that's one heck of an image

----------


## John Venus

Sounds like a Joker plot to me.  Somebody is probably planning that as the next big Joker-centric event.    

As for Jump City, seems like something for the Titans or the Young Justice team to me.

----------


## Avi

There just aren't a lot of jobs that make sense for Dick, and most that do will spell trouble down the line just like his last gig with the gym during Percy's run. Officer Grayson worked because it was part of the mission, without it there is no reason for him to be a cop because he is already a hero. Integrating him into the Blüdhaven casino culture makes the most sense but then, as has already been said, the nightly hours clash with his hero gig. 

A foundation sounds about right, and from the solicitations, it seems as if Dick will invest the money he gets from Alfred into Blüdhaven. If he is smart about that, he doesn't need a regular job.

And, hey, Dick did study economics for a while. Technically that is canon now until proven otherwise. Plus, he knows enough businessmen/women to get added advice.

For in-between or undercover work he can still have the odd job from now and then to help the community.

Imo Jump City doesn't offer anything New York doesn't already. Jump is just a name for an empty city.

----------


## Pohzee

Its far too late because Blüdhaven is so tied to Nightwing, but at some point that was a empty name too. And Jump City sounds wayyy more fitting for both Nightwing and the sort of casino vibe they sometimes try to give Blüdhaven. Hell, maybe they could make it Blüdhaven's new nickname as a revitalization campaign. Sorta like a Windy City nickname

----------


## dropkickjake

At this point, the only two job pitches I've liked are the Wayne Foundation one and working for/having a high rank in/being in charge of to some degree either Spyral or Batman Inc.

----------


## John Venus

Maybe he could be a yoga instructor. :P  Capitalize on that fanservice.  

Or he could work in a community center.  That should open up avenues for story telling as well.  

Whatever job he gets should help generate plots for his work as Nightwing.

----------


## K. Jones

Every job Dick has ends up having the same problem. Somebody he knows from work has an issue and all of a sudden NIGHTWING helped them out. This happens six more times then there's a change in creative team and a new direction but probably good thing ... because frankly his coworkers should have realized his secret identity the first instance. It's the same reason why Hudson University couldn't have been more than a year. Little weird when CELEBRITY ward of Bruce Wayne, son of the most infamous murder in Gotham History, the murder of the Innocent Flying Graysons by Fat Tony Zucco, comes to your college in your small town upstate and Robin and Batgirl show up every single issue!

His social scene is more on the super-heroism side and he's got damn few living relatives ... probably Dick's "day job" needs not be anything more than an alibi or a fakeout, not an actual job that he has to try to work on top of his full time superhero gig. He's NOT Superman. He can still have a social life as Dick Grayson where he gets to relax and not be on guard and meet real people, but he needs the flexibility to dip out constantly.

I think the Foundation is a great idea. He does seem like the type of guy who would take his trust fund and invest it into helping other people.

----------


## WonderNight

The number one thing dick need is FREEDOM! Let this bird this flying Grayson FLY. Dick needs to be able to go out and be nightwing at anytime, anywhere. A 9-5 doesn't help nightwing be a hero.

But on second thought if dick has to have a job how about this.

Dick is a fun ahtletic pretty boy son of a billionaire in has 20s who should be traveling the globe like his childhood and fromer entertainer. So have dick because a rock/popstar! Traveling the world putting on sellout shows with his band/group THE FAB 5!!! 

Dick at heart is just as much an entertainer as hes a hero. Also dick doesn't need the money so it all goes to th Flying Graysons charity fund for orhans.

----------


## AmiMizuno

I like the idea of him being a social worker because if done right he doesn't need to reveal himself. Like he is exposing terrible foster care parents or a youth center of terrible staff. If anything the easiest job would be an Acrobat or stunt daredevil. With those jobs it allows him to travel.

----------


## bearman

Eh. Acrobat or stuntman would just call attention to his athletic gifts. His character has always been empathetic, and naturally kind... the Martha Wayne Charitable Foundation would play to his personal strengths, while giving him the flexibility he needs to continue as a vigilante.

----------


## Lady Nightwing

Didn't a recent comic say Dick had a degree in criminology or something? Have him work in a crime lab. It explains how he's financially independent, plus it would help him out as Nightwing. He'd have legitimate access to evidence, crime scenes etc. Plus he'd be fighting crime around the clock which is pretty cool.

----------


## Digifiend

Wouldn't that just be ripping off the Flash? Barry's a CSI.

----------


## Lady Nightwing

Would that matter? Ollie can't be a billionaire because Bruce is?Wally can't date a reporter because Clark has that sewn up? Bruce has the monopoly on dead parents? Barry and Dick don't interact, I don't think it would be stepping on his toes. Plus Barry is a speedster, I'm sure the comics wouldn't feel to similar.

----------


## AmiMizuno

Why not a teacher or social worker?

Also is it true Dick was suppose to be written bi in the 2000s?

----------


## Drako

DC is releasing a Pride anthology in June, as well as a bunch of Pride themed variants, including one for Nightwing #81 by Travis Moore

----------


## Wingin' It

> Why not a teacher or social worker?
> 
> Also is it true Dick was suppose to be written bi in the 2000s?


No, but the Nightwing writer at the time, Devin Grayson, has said that she personally head-cannoned Dick as bi. She's kinda controversial amongst the fans for a few reasons, this among them. I doubt DC would ever go for that seriously though.

----------


## Lady Nightwing

Devin Grayson has a thing for gay dudes and I don't mean she's just an avid supporter of the lgbt+ community. In her novel Inheritance everyone was kind of gay, unresolved sexual tension _everywhere_, I still can't believe DC published that.

I can see Dick as bi but I wouldn't like to see it written as a fetish.

----------


## byrd156

> Why not a teacher or social worker?
> 
> Also is it true Dick was suppose to be written bi in the 2000s?


Nah that's just Devin Grayson's fetishization of gay and bi men. 

I love her Titans series so much but every time she tries to add some big change to Dick, it comes across as half-assed and poorly handled. Like she wants to add a whole new side to the character but doesn't really want to do the work.

----------


## Rac7d*

Checkmate is finally being developed 
If they continue with it a few years  proposals for GRAYSON to return could actually be possible

----------


## CPSparkles

> The number one thing dick need is FREEDOM! Let this bird this flying Grayson FLY. Dick needs to be able to go out and be nightwing at anytime, anywhere. A 9-5 doesn't help nightwing be a hero.
> 
> But on second thought if dick has to have a job how about this.
> 
> Dick is a fun ahtletic pretty boy son of a billionaire in has 20s who should be traveling the globe like his childhood and fromer entertainer. So have dick because a rock/popstar! Traveling the world putting on sellout shows with his band/group THE FAB 5!!! 
> 
> Dick at heart is just as much an entertainer as hes a hero. Also dick doesn't need the money so it all goes to th Flying Graysons charity fund for orhans.


Oh I like the idea of Dick Grayson popstar. It's a bit fanfic but I don't care.

That or make him a globe trotting Gambler like someone once suggested on this site

----------


## Zaresh

> Oh I like the idea of Dick Grayson popstar. It's a bit fanfic but I don't care.
> 
> That or make him a globe trotting Gambler like someone once suggested on this site


Making Dick a gambler under a possitive light could be rather problematic when you think about these comics being aimed to teens, and those teens usually don't have their brains fully shaped, or their personalities grown mature enough, to know where's the limit when you bet and gamble. Ideally, you want to make him inspirational, as a hero, and an inspirational individual all around as a civilian too, I think. Social worker could be honestly a quite good job, and has potential to catch new cases of a more street level kind. It's the Daredevil way of trigger new cases.

----------


## Drako

Preview with Three new pages 

https://www.syfy.com/syfywire/nightw...-dick-grayson/

----------


## Rakiduam

> Preview with Three new pages 
> 
> https://www.syfy.com/syfywire/nightw...-dick-grayson/


Oh look Barbara it's already sneaking up on him and lecturing him, how charming.

----------


## Restingvoice

He bought the whole apartment block years ago... he hasn't been in Bludhaven for years. It's 2 years, tops, in Rebirth, and Damian hasn't aged in those years, so we can even count it as just 1. Is that an old Bludhaven reference?

----------


## Godlike13

Babs doesnt seemed charmed by the idea of there being a dog around lol.

----------


## Godlike13

> Making Dick a gambler under a possitive light could be rather problematic when you think about these comics being aimed to teens, and those teens usually don't have their brains fully shaped, or their personalities grown mature enough, to know where's the limit when you bet and gamble. Ideally, you want to make him inspirational, as a hero, and an inspirational individual all around as a civilian too, I think. Social worker could be honestly a quite good job, and has potential to catch new cases of a more street level kind. It's the Daredevil way of trigger new cases.


Who says it would be under a positive life. The idea would be to explore both sides of it, creating drama, and exploring the potential positives and negatives. One of Dick’s biggest weaknesses imo is being portrayed as too much of a Boy Scout. A gambling lifestyle I think could create a number of interesting challenges for Dick’s character, yet at the same time keeps things flexible.

----------


## Restingvoice

https://www.dccomics.com/reader/#/comics/468030

Holy crap there are even more previews! 4 more pages featuring Dick and Babs first meeting and fighting bullies together before Papa Gordon drove him home and Babs saw Wayne Manor for the first time.

That's what, 10 pages of previews? They're really confident in this.

----------


## Drako

> https://www.dccomics.com/reader/#/comics/468030
> 
> Holy crap there are even more previews! 4 more pages featuring Dick and Babs first meeting and fighting bullies together before Papa Gordon drove him home and Babs saw Wayne Manor for the first time.
> 
> That's what, 10 pages of previews? They're really confident in this.


Can't wait!!

----------


## BloodOps

A few more days

Can't freaking wait

----------


## Rac7d*

> https://www.dccomics.com/reader/#/comics/468030
> 
> Holy crap there are even more previews! 4 more pages featuring Dick and Babs first meeting and fighting bullies together before Papa Gordon drove him home and Babs saw Wayne Manor for the first time.
> 
> That's what, 10 pages of previews? They're really confident in this.


How old are they their
Aww lol Babs is so cute

----------


## Restingvoice

> How old are they their
> Aww lol Babs is so cute


"Shelton is two years older than me" and they know each other by first name, so first year high school.
Right before the growth spurt then because Babs is _short_. 
Maybe last year middle school...
Basically 14-15?
Oh yeah looks like this confirms they're the same age then.

----------


## OBrianTallent

If the rest of this run is as good as these few pages...its going to be so much fun.

----------


## Wingin' It

> If the rest of this run is as good as these few pages...its going to be so much fun.


Right? That put a smile on my face for sure.

----------


## Restingvoice

By the way I noticed while Babs is still cute and innocent, Dick has this dark countenance about him, and I don't think it's because of hating Sheldon or dreading Bruce's anger. He didn't smile once and I don't think he talks all the way home in Gordon's car. 

He has the eyes of someone already burdened by crimefighting. Like Bruce. Like if you tell me this is young Bruce with no context I'd believe it. 

I mean it could be that he just hates bully, but he didn't smile or quip once. The only time this happened in all the flashbacks I've seen is when he's still fresh out of his parents tragedy and when he's been bullied at school or at the orphanage, then after he has an outlet as Robin, it disappears. It's really rare to see him like this so I'm interested.

----------


## Zaresh

> Who says it would be under a positive life. The idea would be to explore both sides of it, creating drama, and exploring the potential positives and negatives. One of Dick’s biggest weaknesses imo is being portrayed as too much of a Boy Scout. A gambling lifestyle I think could create a number of interesting challenges for Dick’s character, yet at the same time keeps things flexible.


I agree that it would give him some shadows to his character and lifestyle. I'm just saying that these comics, being aimed to teens, are unlikely to portrait an actual hero, classic-type hero like Dick, as someone who bets and gamble. It's a marketing matter. 

That's something an antihero, a morally grey hero, like Constantine for example, would do and being shown to do in his comics. Someone who's going to go places a parent wouldn't like his teen to go. For Constantine, the narrative is going to show those life choices as something dangerous, grey or unhealthy; somehow exciting and cool but mostly something you see under a negative light. If Dick were to do that, because Dick is a hero, with clean morals, mature, responsible, a good figure overall, as much as he has flaws, certain readers are going to see it under a good light, no matter if he would loose his house, break into debt, ruin his life or worse (the Stark effect, by House Stark, is how I call that). I can't imagine editorial wanting to sell a Dick who ruins his life because of gambling because as I said, they're selling Dick as a rather classic hero. A conflicted hero, a flawed hero; but a responsible one. Some sort of a model (I think you perhaps wouldn't like Dick to weight so much responsibility, but it's how usually  I see him depicted as a hero and leader).

It's the same reason why I don't think they would give Dick a drug addiction, for example. Not in mainline comics. Side stories, black label books, elseworlds... that's a different matter. That's a place por testing everyone feels safe about. And you can target those stories for an adult audience without much of a fuss (b*tpen**ses aside).

I do think it could do for an interesting story, but I don't think it's likely to happen. It also would worry me how they would do it, the way they would depict it all. It's probably because I'm pretty wary of gambling overall myself. I'm biased. I dislike gambling, so I wouldn't like a Dick whose daily job is being a professional gambler. And it would hurt me if he were to have a really hard time and suffer because of it.

Anyways, just my opinion. All of my post is just an opinion. And you guys know I'm not even a hardcore fan, to begin with.

Edit: in any case, it seems to be an idea for a dayjob some of you like a lot. Which in the end it's what matters, really.

----------


## Wingin' It

> By the way I noticed while Babs is still cute and innocent, Dick has this dark countenance about him, and I don't think it's because of hating Sheldon or dreading Bruce's anger. He didn't smile once and I don't think he talks all the way home in Gordon's car. 
> 
> He has the eyes of someone already burdened by crimefighting. Like Bruce. Like if you tell me this is young Bruce with no context I'd believe it. 
> 
> I mean it could be that he just hates bully, but he didn't smile or quip once. The only time this happened in all the flashbacks I've seen is when he's still fresh out of his parents tragedy and when he's been bullied at school or at the orphanage, then after he has an outlet as Robin, it disappears. It's really rare to see him like this so I'm interested.


I noticed that too. Dick carried around a lot of grief and anger as a kid, and I think it's cool that's being acknowledged (if that's what this is and he isn't just dreading Bruce grounding him lol).

----------


## Rac7d*

> By the way I noticed while Babs is still cute and innocent, Dick has this dark countenance about him, and I don't think it's because of hating Sheldon or dreading Bruce's anger. He didn't smile once and I don't think he talks all the way home in Gordon's car. 
> 
> He has the eyes of someone already burdened by crimefighting. Like Bruce. Like if you tell me this is young Bruce with no context I'd believe it. 
> 
> I mean it could be that he just hates bully, but he didn't smile or quip once. The only time this happened in all the flashbacks I've seen is when he's still fresh out of his parents tragedy and when he's been bullied at school or at the orphanage, then after he has an outlet as Robin, it disappears. It's really rare to see him like this so I'm interested.


Or his parents just died

----------


## Restingvoice

> Or his parents just died


I discounted that since if we're going with the classic timeline he looks a bit too old for that and usually by that point he already let go, but they haven't defined when exactly they died if this is a new continuity, so yeah maybe that's still it.

----------


## Rac7d*

> I discounted that since if we're going with the classic timeline he looks a bit too old for that and usually by that point he already let go, but they haven't defined when exactly they died if this is a new continuity, so yeah maybe that's still it.


14/15  wasn’t that his new adoption age
Also do you really ever let go?

----------


## Restingvoice

> 14/15  wasnt that his new adoption age
> Also do you really ever let go?


No idea
No... well... depend on the person... with Dick what I see he shifts focus




> He bought the whole apartment block years ago... he hasn't been in Bludhaven for years. It's 2 years, tops, in Rebirth, and Damian hasn't aged in those years, so we can even count it as just 1. Is that an old Bludhaven reference?


I'm overhyped and asked everyone I know who knows and got an answer

No he never bought a whole apartment block in old Bludhaven

This is brand new

Oh and another thing I already know but forget to mention, Dick doesn't like to use Wayne money be it in Dixon or Higgins continuity. He did ask Bruce to buy a few buildings in Tomasi's run for strategic HQs, and he's not above stealing Bruce's credit card to buy Wally's apartment and all of the charges in Rebirth. 

So it's fine if it's for job or friends, but not if it's for himself. 

So until confirmed otherwise, I take it that this apartment purchase was for the job

----------


## bearman

As the early myths is being tweaked here, it might be interesting if Babs lighten’s Dick’s world the way he does Bruce’s. I like the new version... Barbara popping up as a young librarian years later always seemed ridiculous to me.

----------


## Drako

> No idea
> No... well... depend on the person... with Dick what I see he shifts focus
> 
> 
> 
> I'm overhyped and asked everyone I know who knows and got an answer
> 
> No he never bought a whole apartment block in old Bludhaven
> 
> ...


You talking about current continuity?
Because during the Chuck Dixon's run he indeed bought the whole building that he lived so the people there would not get evicted.

Edit: This is the issue, Nightwing #21.

----------


## Rakiduam

> "Shelton is two years older than me" and they know each other by first name, so first year high school.
> Right before the growth spurt then because Babs is _short_. 
> Maybe last year middle school...
> Basically 14-15?
> Oh yeah looks like this confirms they're the same age then.


Oh! Another first meet. I hope there's a point to Shelton.

----------


## Frontier

> https://www.dccomics.com/reader/#/comics/468030
> 
> Holy crap there are even more previews! 4 more pages featuring Dick and Babs first meeting and fighting bullies together before Papa Gordon drove him home and Babs saw Wayne Manor for the first time.
> 
> That's what, 10 pages of previews? They're really confident in this.


I'm torn between thinking this is really cute, especially little girl Babs, and just feeling weird that they're first meeting wasn't as Robin and Batgirl. 

But it does seem to indicate that Dick and Babs' relationship is going to be important to this run. I mean, they're going through all the childhood friend romance cliche's  :Stick Out Tongue: .

I don't think they confirm he was Robin then but if he was, I think that's official confirmation he started out younger as Robin again instead of at 16. I forget if that had been re-established or was just insinuated. Babs looks way too young to be Batgirl so that probably didn't happen until she was in her late teens and that's when her and Dick's relationship really took off.

----------


## Restingvoice

> You talking about current continuity?
> Because during the Chuck Dixon's run he indeed bought the whole building that he lived so the people there would not get evicted.
> 
> Edit: This is the issue, Nightwing #21.


I was asking about Pre-Infinite Crisis since I know he didn't in Rebirth

Didn't this one get torched by Blockbuster? Assuming he didn't since he's still alive now, didn't Dick use his parents money after invested by Lucius so he has a lot? Coz I'm trying to find out if it's new, a retcon, or pulled from the past as is.

----------


## Jay11

> Oh look Barbara it's already sneaking up on him and lecturing him, how charming.


My thoughts exactly. Wonder how many times she'll remind him that she's the 'smart one' per issue? I'd propose taking a drink every time she does but I suspect we'd all die from alcohol poisoning.

----------


## Drako

> I was asking about Pre-Infinite Crisis since I know he didn't in Rebirth
> 
> Didn't this one get torched by Blockbuster? Assuming he didn't since he's still alive now, didn't Dick use his parents money after invested by Lucius so he has a lot? Coz I'm trying to find out if it's new, a retcon, or pulled from the past as is.


Yes, Blockbuster blew the whole place after Devin Grayson took over. Yes, he bought with the trust fund money his parent made for him.

Also, yes, this new building he bought is something new. 

Trying to make sense of the "Everything happened" will make you lose your mind. The current Blockbuster is the one that Tim Seeley used and not the one from Chuck Dixon.

The way i see it is that the current continuity from Rebirth is the one that matters, but if the writers want something from the past they can use without restriction.

----------


## Restingvoice

> Yes, Blockbuster blew the whole place after Devin Grayson took over. Yes, he bought with the trust fund money his parent made for him.
> 
> Also, yes, this new building he bought is something new. 
> 
> Trying to make sense of the "Everything happened" will make you lose your mind. The current Blockbuster is the one that Tim Seeley used and not the one from Chuck Dixon.
> 
> The way i see it is that the current continuity from Rebirth is the one that matters, but if the writers want something from the past they can use without restriction.


No... no mind needs to be lost, I can adjust, and I already consider this new continuity anyway what with what happened to Diana, Alan Scott, Jason, and now Dick Babs, but I prefer to be sure. It's also fun to know if it's a trivia

Edit: I Should've gone straight to the wiki

1013_Parkthorne_Avenue_0001.jpg

It's the same building

----------


## Murrocko

> No... no mind needs to be lost, I can adjust, and I already consider this new continuity anyway what with what happened to Diana, Alan Scott, Jason, and now Dick Babs, but I prefer to be sure. It's also fun to know if it's a trivia
> 
> Edit: I Should've gone straight to the wiki
> 
> 1013_Parkthorne_Avenue_0001.jpg
> 
> It's the same building


Kinda reminds me of Hey Arnold!

----------


## Drako

> No... no mind needs to be lost, I can adjust, and I already consider this new continuity anyway what with what happened to Diana, Alan Scott, Jason, and now Dick Babs, but I prefer to be sure. It's also fun to know if it's a trivia
> 
> Edit: I Should've gone straight to the wiki
> 
> 1013_Parkthorne_Avenue_0001.jpg
> 
> It's the same building


Huh, the more you know... Flashpoint was so powerful that recreated even buildings.

Maybe Clancy still is the superintendent of 1013 Parkthorne Avenue in current continuity.

----------


## Ascended

I actually miss Clancy. I thought she was a fun character and I really enjoyed the early issues of Dixon's run where you never saw her face. I'll admit, I was *not* expecting a...crap, what was she? Chinese American? after reading that thick ass Irish accent issue after issue.  :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## Restingvoice

Irish-raised Chinese American. I already saw what she looks like from the later issues scan people upload, so looking at it from the beginning's pretty fun

----------


## Drako

McDaniels created her, but she looked the best by Greg Land art.

----------


## dropkickjake

Super interesting that it looks like it’s basically the same building! Maybe we will see some mash up of the “stuff that worked” combined into a definitive run? Clancy would be a great inclusion.

----------


## Ascended

> Super interesting that it looks like its basically the same building! Maybe we will see some mash up of the stuff that worked combined into a definitive run? Clancy would be a great inclusion.


If this run ends up reflecting a lot of the stuff we cooked up in our pitch/bible I'm gonna be real conflicted about it.  :Stick Out Tongue:  Because on the one hand, it's cool if Taylor ends up seeing the same problems we did and comes up with similar solutions, that shows that you and me were on the right track. But on the other hand, if we cooked up a similar idea as Taylor, then I'm gonna be real disappointed that we're not actually pro writers.  :Big Grin:

----------


## Restingvoice

> If this run ends up reflecting a lot of the stuff we cooked up in our pitch/bible I'm gonna be real conflicted about it.  Because on the one hand, it's cool if Taylor ends up seeing the same problems we did and comes up with similar solutions, that shows that you and me were on the right track. But on the other hand, if we cooked up a similar idea as Taylor, then I'm gonna be real disappointed that we're not actually pro writers.


The difference will be in execution

----------


## Godlike13

I need to see more, they could be trying to combine Dixon’s Bludhaven with Seeley’s Bludhaven.

----------


## Rakiduam

> ��������My thoughts exactly. Wonder how many times she'll remind him that she's the 'smart one' per issue? I'd propose taking a drink every time she does but I suspect we'd all die from alcohol poisoning.��


Dick getting a raw deal it's nothing new but  apparently when it's in Barbara's favor it becomes cute. The really discouraging part is that, reading Higgins and Seeley's comments this kind of remake is what they all dream to write. At the end on they day they are just shipers.

No wonder Nightwing has been stuck in a mediocrity for years. And now they are all exited because Taylor may be digging up bodies that never really added anything.

Well crap, Nightwing will stay small I guess, all because of Dixion liked im that way.

----------


## Frontier

> Irish-raised Chinese American. I already saw what she looks like from the later issues scan people upload, so looking at it from the beginning's pretty fun


It's why I thought Shawn/Defacer was meant to be a tribute/reference to her, because she was Asian and isn't "Shawn" an Irish name?

----------


## Lady Nightwing

Seán (pronounced Shawn) is an Irish name. It is Irish for John. Which makes it a bizarre name for a woman really

----------


## dropkickjake

> If this run ends up reflecting a lot of the stuff we cooked up in our pitch/bible I'm gonna be real conflicted about it.  Because on the one hand, it's cool if Taylor ends up seeing the same problems we did and comes up with similar solutions, that shows that you and me were on the right track. But on the other hand, if we cooked up a similar idea as Taylor, then I'm gonna be real disappointed that we're not actually pro writers.


Lol, at this point I’d just be thrilled to read some good nightwing. And if this run addressed similar issues, I’d just take the pat on the back so to speak. 




> I need to seem more, they could be trying to combine Dixon’s Bludhaven with Seeley’s Bludhaven.


Between this building being pretty clearly the same and Seeley’s tweet, that’s a real possibility here. Not going to narrow my view on it, but it would be a welcome move. 




> Dick getting a raw deal it's nothing new but  apparently when it's in Barbara's favor it becomes cute. The really discouraging part is that, reading Higgins and Seeley's comments this kind of remake is what they all dream to write. At the end on they day they are just shipers.
> 
> No wonder Nightwing has been stuck in a mediocrity for years. And now they are all exited because Taylor may be digging up bodies that never really added anything.
> 
> Well crap, Nightwing will stay small I guess, all because of Dixion liked im that way.


I bet y’all’re fun at parties.

----------


## Drako

Anyone outside the US knows where to buy physical copies of the books? I'll buy the TPBs when eventually arrive here, but i want to collect the single issue 78 too.

----------


## Felipe Silveira

> Anyone outside the US knows where to buy physical copies of the books? I'll buy the TPBs when eventually arrive here, but i want to collect the single issue 78 too.


Nunca comprei por lá, mas a Midtown comics entrega no Brasil.

----------


## Ascended

> Lol, at this point Id just be thrilled to read some good nightwing. And if this run addressed similar issues, Id just take the pat on the back so to speak.


Ha! I hear that!  :Big Grin:

----------


## Drako

> Nunca comprei por lá, mas a Midtown comics entrega no Brasil.


Vou olhar lá! Valeu!

----------


## Rac7d*

I hope Nightwing can get his sales back up

----------


## Frontier

> I hope Nightwing can get his sales back up


Along with story quality and good showcasing of Dick  :Smile: .

----------


## Rac7d*

> Along with story quality and good showcasing of Dick .


Not hard since we’re leaving Rick behind

----------


## Lady Nightwing

The new issue was pretty great. Alfred's letter made me tear up a little, not going to lie. It's going to be a slow month, waiting on the next issue

----------


## HsssH

Good start. I was not fond of Babs being in this, but set up worked rather well to explain why she is there. Also, I probably missed something in last couple of months, but I wasn't expecting Dick to get that much money.

----------


## Drako

> The new issue was pretty great. Alfred's letter made me tear up a little, not going to lie. It's going to be a slow month, waiting on the next issue


I liked a lot too! The flashback was sweetie and the letter was perfect.

The only problem for me is that DC released like 10 pages of preview, so i had already read half of the issue.

*spoilers:*
So... Melina Zucco is the new mayor, huh? No Sonya then, i wonder what happened to her.
Make sense to be another character, since Sonya would not put with that shit Blockbuster just pulled.

Since the New 52, Tony Zucco had 3 kids that we know of now.
*end of spoilers*

----------


## Restingvoice

> Good start. I was not fond of Babs being in this, but set up worked rather well to explain why she is there. Also, I probably missed something in last couple of months, but I wasn't expecting Dick to get that much money.


It's explained in Alfred's letter




> I liked a lot too! The flashback was sweetie and the letter was perfect.
> 
> The only problem for me is that DC released like 10 pages of preview, so i had already read half of the issue.
> 
> *spoilers:*
> So... Melina Zucco is the new mayor, huh? No Sonya then, i wonder what happened to her.
> Make sense to be another character, since Sonya would not put with that shit Blockbuster just pulled.
> 
> Since the New 52, Tony Zucco had 3 kids that we know of now.
> *end of spoilers*


My only problem is by the end of Alfred's letter, I can't get the image of Julia out of my head going wtf
but we already discussed that

4 if we're counting the digital first story

----------


## Drako

> It's explained in Alfred's letter
> 
> 
> 
> My only problem is by the end of Alfred's letter, I can't get the image of Julia out of my head going wtf
> but we already discussed that
> 
> 4 if we're counting the digital first story


I mean, maybe he left money in his will for her too, we just didn't see it.

----------


## sifighter

> I mean, maybe he left money in his will for her too, we just didn't see it.


Yeah we dont see her, so for all we know she got left a pretty decent chunk of change or at the very least personal family property like heirlooms or a home.

Also I love that this means that Dick is now richer then Bruce, thats a funny thing to see.

----------


## Drako

Sneak peek of the next issue:

----------


## HsssH

> It's explained in Alfred's letter


No, I mean when it was revealed that Dick is gonna get money from Alfred I was expecting him to get few millions, not billions.

----------


## sifighter

[QUOTE=HsssH;5432068]


> It's explained in Alfred's letter/QUOTE]
> 
> No, I mean when it was revealed that Dick is gonna get money from Alfred I was expecting him to get few millions, not billions.


Lets not even think about the stock options which do have to worth a lot of money given Wayne Industries reach, just consider the fact that Alfred was a live-in butler so he probably just stayed at Wayne Manor, not having to pay for property or anything, then consider that anything he paid for he probably just billed Bruce and wrote it off for a work expense or Bruce just covered it because he thinks of Alfred like a father.

So that's probably a couple of decades of having to not pay for food, house expenses, and etc., add on to that Alfred's natural salary because being a Butler was his job for Decades, and then add on his stock options and there you have a pretty little nest egg for Alfred.

----------


## Restingvoice

> I mean, maybe he left money in his will for her too, we just didn't see it.


That make sense so I'm going with it




> Sneak peek of the next issue:


They got his sexy back




> No, I mean when it was revealed that Dick is gonna get money from Alfred I was expecting him to get few millions, not billions.


I guess Lucius is just that good with investments

----------


## Zaresh

Is it explained if the other kids get any from the inheritance it? Even if it's something symbolic or something. If not, not cool, Alf. Not cool.

And with Alf I actually mean the writer.

----------


## Drako

> Is it explained if the other kids get any from the inheritance it? Even if it's something symbolic or something. If not, not cool, Alf. Not cool.
> 
> And with Alf I actually mean the writer.


 No word on the other ex-Robins.

----------


## sifighter

> Is it explained if the other kids get any from the inheritance it? Even if it's something symbolic or something. If not, not cool, Alf. Not cool.
> 
> And with Alf I actually mean the writer.


I mean it actually kind of makes sense if this was written a year ago like the letter says because you got to figure like this.

1. Jason is a little bit of a legal gray area I think because he was dead, and I’m pretty sure things were awkward in a way with giving Jason money since he’s a bit of a rouge Vigilante/constantly fighting with Bruce.

2. Tim I think has his own inheritance from the death of his parents 

3. Damian’s only 13(?) so he couldn’t get the money anyway, plus Bruce will probably leave money to him

4. Remember that Dick was “Ric” vagabond taxi driver. He could have used the money then honestly.

----------


## Godlike13

New issue was good. Art is another level, and the format was done well. Read fast though and didn’t really reveal anything we haven’t learned from the marketing. But what can you do, they have to market. So solid start, the makings are certainly here, but I think this isn’t going to gel with everyone. Because they are not reinventing the wheel here, this is very much a return to form in clear ways. And the form they are returning to is not everyone’s cup of tea anymore. After Ric though, I get it. They went so far one way and everyone rejected it that they now are making it very clear that they are going the other way here. The last creators swung out so badly with Ric and now they have to reset. 

We’ll have to see what the new team does with these things though, and how they incorporate them. They made Dick saving a puppy more meaningful then anything he’s done in the past couple years. So I think they can make them cool and interesting. Or at least I hope they can.

----------


## Drako

> There are going to be life-changing moments for Dick. But the direction is all about reminding people why #Nightwing is one of the absolute best @DCComics  heroes. Demonstrating his capability and his intelligence alongside his empathy and his humanity.





> He’s one of the world’s greatest detectives and one of the best fighters in the DC universe. That shouldn’t be ignored just because he’s humble and a little self-deprecating.


If anything, Tom Taylor is saying all the right words!

----------


## Zaresh

> I mean it actually kind of makes sense if this was written a year ago like the letter says because you got to figure like this.
> 
> 1. Jason is a little bit of a legal gray area I think because he was dead, and I’m pretty sure things were awkward in a way with giving Jason money since he’s a bit of a rouge Vigilante/constantly fighting with Bruce.
> 
> 2. Tim I think has his own inheritance from the death of his parents 
> 
> 3. Damian’s only 13(?) so he couldn’t get the money anyway, plus Bruce will probably leave money to him
> 
> 4. Remember that Dick was “Ric” vagabond taxi driver. He could have used the money then honestly.


Jason is officially alive again, since like two years ago already. But I was thinking also about Tim, Cass, Damian, Steph and Julia. Especially Cass, who is in even a weaker possition than Dick. Julia, I guess, has been erased from continuity, or something.

And I meant symbolic, because I meant non profitable inheritance, which is something you let behind for those you cherrish, no matter if they have economic means to sustain themselves or not. And, you know, you mention them also in your will. Because they mean something to you. I want to believe they aren't mentioned in this because apparently, it's a personal letter. But if not, not cool.

----------


## Godlike13

> Is it explained if the other kids get any from the inheritance it? Even if it's something symbolic or something. If not, not cool, Alf. Not cool.
> 
> And with Alf I actually mean the writer.


He didn’t help raise the other kids.

----------


## Zaresh

> He didn’t raise the other kids.


So he didn't rise Jason, Tim or Cass. Or Damian. Have no emotional ties with them.

Ok.

----------


## Drako

> Jason is officially alive again, since like two years ago already. But I was thinking also about Tim, Cass, Damian, Steph and Julia. Especially Cass, who is in even a weaker possitikn than Dick. Julia, I guess, has been erased from continuity, or something.
> 
> And I meant symbolic, because I meant non profitable inheritance, which is something you let behind for those you cherrish, no matter if they have economic means to sustain themselves or not. And, you know, you mention them also in your will. Because they mean something to you. I want to believe they aren't mentioned in this because apparently, it's a personal letter. But if not, not cool.


Dick didn't read Alfred's will. He read a letter that Alfred wrote for him. 

Also, Barbara mentioned they read the will sometime ago, probably in that special DC realeased after Alfred's death. Dick didn't know about the money cause he was Ric at the time.

----------


## Zaresh

> Dick didn't read Alfred's will. He read a letter that Alfred wrote for him. 
> 
> Also, Barbara mentioned they read the will sometime ago, probably in that special DC realeased after Alfred's death. Dick didn't know about the money cause he was Ric at the time.


Ok, so there was some kind of will. Good. I hope they git to get any kind of memento from Alfred, to be honest.

----------


## mib86

> Is it explained if the other kids get any from the inheritance it? Even if it's something symbolic or something. If not, not cool, Alf. Not cool.
> 
> And with Alf I actually mean the writer.


The writer was clever here: Dick missed the reading of the will (because it was Rick at the time)and considering that, he can show us only the part about him.
Alfred certainly left something to others as well, but it is up to other authors to explore.
(after this story, however, I wouldn't be surprised if he left more to Dick than Bruce).

----------


## Morgoth

Really strong start. It has been a long time since I was as optimistic about Dick's case as I am now.



> He didn’t help raise the other kids.


Well, he did. Especially Damian.

----------


## Godlike13

> So he didn't rise Jason, Tim or Cass. Or Damian. Have no emotional ties with them.
> 
> Ok.


He didn’t. Jason died, Tim had a home and family, and Cass and Steph he barely has a relationship with. I know some like to make it seem as they are all equal with equal relationships and all that, but they’re not. Julia has a case though. Ill say that.

----------


## Godlike13

> Well, he did. Especially Damian.


Damian, who he told to get lost when his Dad couldn’t remember him. Damian hasn’t even been raised yet. That’s still in process.

----------


## Drako

> The writer was clever here: Dick missed the reading of the will (because it was Rick at the time)and considering that, he can show us only the part about him.
> Alfred certainly left something to others as well, but it is up to other authors to explore.
> (after this story, however, I wouldn't be surprised if he left more to Dick than Bruce).


Before Alfred death, Bruce was still a Billionaire. It's just now that he is a millionaire. What a shame, being just a millionaire. XD

----------


## Batman Begins 2005

I had high hopes for this having read Tom Taylor's Batman Annual #3, Friendly Neighbourhood Spider-Man run particularly #14. I recommended it to a number of posters in this thread. Did you read it?

I've just finished Nightwing #78 and I wasn't disappointed. Dick Grayson and his fans have deserved something like this for a while after the Ric debacle.

----------


## Waterfall

This was a great beginning. Nothing mindblowing, but it was enough to keep me around. I hope it doesn't meet the same fate as Seeley's did.

Besides, I adore the art on the book. For that alone, it's worth checking out.

----------


## Drako

> I had high hopes for this having read Tom Taylor's Batman Annual #3, Friendly Neighbourhood Spider-Man run particularly #14. I recommended it to a number of posters in this thread. Did you read it?
> 
> I've just finished Nightwing #78 and I wasn't disappointed. Dick Grayson and his fans have deserved something like this for a while after the Ric debacle.


All-New Wolverine and Friendly Neighbourhood Spider-Man were the first Marvel books i read in decades, waiting for his Nightwing. Not disappointed in either of those, specially Friendly Neighbourhood Spider-Man that is really, really great.

----------


## Zaresh

> Jason died, Tim had a home and family, and Cass and Steph he barely has a relationship with. I know some like to make it seem as they are all equal with equal relationships and all that, but they’re not. Julia has a case though. Ill say that.


So, in your opinion, all those times Alfred showed them close affection and care are lies. Just regular companionship between mere friends or business partners. They were just there, they're no familly. And if they were, there're lower familly that doesn't deserve recognition. Not the same level Dick deserves.

----------


## OWL45

> So he didn't rise Jason, Tim or Cass. Or Damian. Have no emotional ties with them.
> 
> Ok.


In all fairness to the writer and continuity Dick out of all of them spent years with him. The others were with him to varying degrees but not the same amount of time and care as Dick.

----------


## Morgoth

> Damian, who he told to get lost when his Dad couldn’t remember him. Damian hasn’t even been raised yet. That’s still in process.


I think they prefer to ignore that part of their story.  :Big Grin: 
This does not negate the fact that for Alfred, Damian was no less close than Dick and Bruce, which was repeatedly emphasized. 
And in fact, it is rather strange to argue who he loved more and who less.

----------


## sifighter

> So, in your opinion, all those times Alfred showed them close affection and care are lies. Just regular companionship between mere friends or business partners. They were just there, they're no familly. And if they were, there're lower familly that doesn't deserve recognition. Not the same level Dick deserves.


Listen no one is devaluing their relationship, they all cared about Alfred and Alfred cared about them to as seen in a number of different stories. But aside from Bruce, Alfred knew Dick the longest. Dick spent almost a decade or more as Robin at the Wayne Manor living with them and when he moved out he was like a son who came to visit.

Jason lived there too but he died a few years after (Im not really sure how long Jason was Robin, I assume 3 years at most) so he didnt get to stay as long and when he came back he was a villain for a little while until he calmed down.

Tim was more a neighbor until Bruce officially adopted him after the death of his father, and even that was only like a year until Damian showed up.

Damian was 10 when he showed up, and is now only 13(?) so Alfred had like three years with the kid.

Im not saying Alfred didnt love the other Robins, but he knew Dick the longest out of all of them and had the better relationship with outside of Damian.

----------


## Drako

> So, in your opinion, all those times Alfred showed them close affection and care are lies. Just regular companionship between mere friends or business partners. They were just there, they're no familly. And if they were, there're lower familly that doesn't deserve recognition. Not the same level Dick deserves.


I think it's pretty well established that there are all family, they love him and he loved them back. 

But Dick was the first and he was Robin for 40 years IRL, his relationship with Alfred is more developed, even if the current continuity is more compressed.

----------


## OWL45

> So, in your opinion, all those times Alfred showed them close affection and care are lies. Just regular companionship between mere friends or business partners. They were just there, they're no familly. And if they were, there're lower familly that doesn't deserve recognition. Not the same level Dick deserves.


If everything supposedly happened in continuity he helped raise Dick from about Damians age to an adult before he left to strike out in his own. That’s significantly more time than the other kids. I’m not saying they don’t matter but that’s along time.

----------


## Godlike13

> So, in your opinion, all those times Alfred showed them close affection and care are lies. Just regular companionship between mere friends or business partners. They were just there, they're no familly. And if they were, there're lower familly that doesn't deserve recognition. Not the same level Dick deserves.


Alfred shows pretty much everyone affection and care. But everyone wasn’t taken in by Bruce and Alfred like Dick was, and then raise by them as he was. Its not that they are not family, but they don’t all have the same relationship just because they are Batfamily. Dick and Alfred can have a moment with out having to consider every other member of the Batfamily cause they aren’t all the same, and they don’t all just inherit the same relationships because they are in the family. Alfred explain why he wanted Dick to have it. He’s making an investment in the second person he’s most invested in, and the person he thinks could do the most good with his investment. Like it or not he doesn’t have this kind of relationship with the others except for with Bruce. Not even Damian who they wanted nothing to do with until Dick brought him into the fold. 

If you follow one of the themes of the issue, money and wealth corrupts. So Alfred gave his wealth to the person he most trusted would do good with. That circus boy who wanted nothing but to help. His second son.

----------


## Zaresh

> If everything supposedly happened in continuity he helped raise Dick from about Damians age to an adult before he left to strike out in his own. That’s significantly more time than the other kids. I’m not saying they don’t matter but that’s along time.


Going by that logic, you would love your older children allways the most. Don't get me wrong, I get where you are coming from, but I need to point out this logic that, to be honest, I don't like.

But anyways. It's a personal letter, not a will. It's also meta to some level. Whatever.

The issue is good then, right?

----------


## HsssH

Yeah, I think that Taylor played it smart and didn't reveal actual will. If some writer wants to write a story about Alfred leaving his favourite watch to Jason or whoever else then they can do that.

----------


## OWL45

> Going by that logic, you would love your older children allways the most. Don't get me wrong, I get where you are coming from, but I need to point out this logic that, to be honest, I don't like.
> 
> But anyways. It's a personal letter, not a will. It's also meta to some level. Whatever.
> 
> The issue is good then, right?


It was a good issue it just went by quick. The art was good and writing is promising.

----------


## RedQueen

Issue was pretty good. Art was fab.

I feel like if the writers for all the batfam issues wanted to address the relationship and death with Alfred then I think that's the writers responsibility, Taylor decided to do it and I don't believe it's reflection for Alfred's other relationships with the other Robins.

----------


## Restingvoice

> The writer was clever here: Dick missed the reading of the will (because it was Rick at the time)and considering that, he can show us only the part about him.
> Alfred certainly left something to others as well, but it is up to other authors to explore.
> (after this story, however, I wouldn't be surprised if he left more to Dick than Bruce).


Ah I didn't read Pennyworth RIP since that whole Damian-Thomas-Bane-Alfred thing is just a mess, but if there's a will, then by Alfred logic everyone would get something

Also Julia didn't attend that and any other Bat fam meeting after because she couldn't bring herself to it. Grief, anger, maybe a little bit of blame, she decided to be on her own. That's my logic.




> Damian, who he told to get lost when his Dad couldn’t remember him.


Yeah that whole arc is also messed up

About the adoption, Tim seems to have all his back story back, but Steph and Cass will have to wait until maybe later this year, since up until the end of Rebirth they're still using their New 52 back story, meaning they have less connection to Bruce than Damian.

----------


## Batman Begins 2005

> All-New Wolverine and Friendly Neighbourhood Spider-Man were the first Marvel books i read in decades, waiting for his Nightwing. Not disappointed in either of those, specially Friendly Neighbourhood Spider-Man that is really, really great.


Cheers. Never read All-New Wolverine. Friendly Neighbourhood Spider-Man was great especially #14. Please seek out Batman Annual #3, that is Taylor's best story and nails the Bruce/Alfred love for one another.

----------


## Lady Nightwing

> The only problem for me is that DC released like 10 pages of preview, so i had already read half of the issue.


I felt that way too actually. That might be the only real complaint I have.

As for the will, I think it was handled pretty well by leaving it ambiguous. It's very possible the others did get something but poor auld Ric wasn't aware of it. I'm going with he left something for the others but gave Dick the lions share of the money for the reasons specified in the letter.

The art was phenomenal in this issue. I'm not really into Dick/Babs but the way Bruno Redondo drew that scene on the fire escape was masterful. The panel with her squeezing his shoulder actually managed to convey more warmth than the fake wedding they had.

----------


## Avi

Well, that was fun. Redondo and Lucas are killing it on art.

The added DC proudly presents is a nice little reminder that this is supposed to be a game-changer. Didn't expect that.Dicks and Babs interactions are pretty well, imo. I also have my issues with how the sneak attack was handled, but it could be worse. Barbara complaining about Dick's security didnt bother me. She probably complains about all security.The your mind is astonishing gives me lots of hope. Now they just have to show it.I laughed when they didnt even mention the name R/c and hope that this is the last well see of it being mentioned ever again.Melinda's bodyguard(?) looks a bit like Onyx, not that I really think it is. Would be strange if they included her after saying they dont want to saturate Blüdhaven with Bat characters.I like that everyone is so fashionable. Even Blockbuster. That long hair really flows when he crushes heads, lol. It also looks very white compared to the dirty-blond at times almost brown hair he has had before.Melinda has me curious. Given the set-up at the end of the issue, Im guessing Dicks New52 connections to the Zucco family will be ignored. But, Her last name isnt mentioned while the Mayor is still alive. Could she be Sonia under a fake name? Probably just a coincidence, but this is the same color scheme:
zucco daughters.jpgI think it's a bit weird that Alfred makes it seems as if Dick is not supposed to help as Dick Grayson. "Laying low" sounds to me as if Bruce just doesn't want Dick to get into fights that he shouldn't be able to win.

I agree that they released a bit too many preview pages. It almost seems as if they didn't plan on promoting Nightwing so heavily, then got shocked into action when Nightwing trended on Twitter on the day of the #78 solicitation release.

----------


## Blue22

Oh man. It's been such a long time since I enjoyed a Nightwing book. Once again, Taylor does not disappoint. Though if I had one gripe, it would be how unsure I feel about this extremely coincidental child of Zucco being a major player in the city Nightwing just happens to be operating in. But depending on where they go with her, I can look past that.

----------


## Murrocko

Pretty solid set up issue, a bit over hyped in all those reviews, but a really good start none the less. It did feel like I read half the issue already due to all the released previews, but that one's on me. Man that art though, 10/10.

Probably too early to ask, but is Sonia no longer in continuity? I can't really remember the last time she was around and I think we all expected her to be the one that showed up when we heard a Zucco would be involved in this arc. Also I wonder how they'll explain Nightwing not knowing about a Zucco being a politician in the city he operates in until now. Did she only rise to prominence during his time as Ric? That would be a pretty quick climb up the ranks.

----------


## Drako

> Oh man. It's been such a long time since I enjoyed a Nightwing book. Once again, Taylor does not disappoint. Though if I had one gripe, it would be how unsure I feel about this extremely coincidental child of Zucco being a major player in the city Nightwing just happens to be operating in. But depending on where they go with her, I can look past that.


Well, by the end of the issue we know that she is after him. So it's not far fetched to think she went to bludhaven to look for him.




> Pretty solid set up issue, a bit over hyped in all those reviews, but a really good start none the less. It did feel like I read half the issue already due to all the released previews, but that one's on me. Man that art though, 10/10.
> 
> Probably too early to ask, but is Sonia no longer in continuity? I can't really remember the last time she was around and I think we all expected her to be the one that showed up when we heard a Zucco would be involved in this arc. Also I wonder how they'll explain Nightwing not knowing about a Zucco being a politician in the city he operates in until now. Did she only rise to prominence during his time as Ric? That would be a pretty quick climb up the ranks.


Last time we saw Sonya was Nightwing #29 from the New 52. I hope they at least acknowledge her in some form.

----------


## Fergus

> So he didn't rise Jason, Tim or Cass. Or Damian. Have no emotional ties with them.
> 
> Ok.


One of the worst things about fanon is how it corrupts actual canon. Alfred didn't raise jason, Tim or damian.

Alfred's actions point to him not actually caring at all for Jason and Damian.

Jason he urged Bruce to replace and never once seemed to mind no matter how bad Bruce treated Him.

Tim was a part-timer with a home and family so Bruce and Alfred never raised him

Damian he didn't care for willing to get rid of the 10 year old.

Dick is the only one Alfred raised and the only one we have ACTUAL canon stories to show that Alfred truly cared for.

Fans treat Alfred like he was some father and a sacred Cow but the guy was awful and only cared for Bruce and Dick.

----------


## Digifiend

> I need to see more, they could be trying to combine Dixons Bludhaven with Seeleys Bludhaven.


Wasn't Dixon's Bludhaven blown up, resulting in the deaths of Tim's stepmother and fake uncle? His Dad was already dead by then, leading to him getting adopted by Bruce. But since Tim hasn't reverted to calling himself Tim Wayne, I guess that's no longer canon?



> Sneak peek of the next issue:


So, he's doing the mannequin thing like the heroes did in the Arrow and Flash TV shows.

----------


## Arsenal

Really enjoyed this issue. Looking forward to see where Taylor’s run goes.




> Oh man. It's been such a long time since I enjoyed a Nightwing book. Once again, Taylor does not disappoint. Though if I had one gripe, it would be how unsure I feel about this extremely coincidental child of Zucco being a major player in the city Nightwing just happens to be operating in. But depending on where they go with her, I can look past that.


She could also have changed her name at one point. Would explain a lot without requiring any real effort to explain.

----------


## Fergus

feels good to hear so many positives about taylors Nightwing. More excited for mine to arrive now

----------


## Aahz

> Listen no one is devaluing their relationship, they all cared about Alfred and Alfred cared about them to as seen in a number of different stories. But aside from Bruce, Alfred knew Dick the longest. Dick spent almost a decade or more as Robin at the Wayne Manor living with them and when he moved out he was like a son who came to visit.


If you go by Post Crisis it was only 6 years.




> Tim was more a neighbor until Bruce officially adopted him after the death of his father, and even that was only like a year until Damian showed up.


When Tim went to Brentwood Academy, Alfred left Bruce and went with Tim. Meaning he lived there with Tim for quite sometime (I would say a year, but Tim's timeline is really fuzzy because his slowed down ageing).
Tim was also living at Wayne Manor for quite some time after the death of his mother when his father was in coma.




> Dick is the only one Alfred raised and the only one we have ACTUAL canon stories to show that Alfred truly cared for.


That's at best a retcon. In the original stories from Dick's time as Robin (especially from the Golden Age) Alfred didn't really raise anyone...

----------


## nightw1ng

Honestly, this is the first time in years that I've enjoyed the Nightwing book again.  It actually feels hopeful and upbeat, which is what Dick should be compared to the rest of the Batfamily.

----------


## Restingvoice

Oh about Dick not smiling and quipping, I forgot in the very first preview when saving the pup, he said it himself he usually opens with something witty, but he's not usually this disgusted, and he didn't smile until after he rescued the pup.

So it is the bullies. He's just that disgusted.

----------


## BloodOps

Man this was so good.

The only complaint I had is that we read most of it prior to the comic coming out. 


Seeing Dick back in the spotlight is well overdue, as the 4th pillar of DC, he needs to be involved more.

----------


## K. Jones

This was really good comics, but it did go by too fast. You have that with books that had too many previews, of course. I was pleased with a lot of bullet points. Dealing with Alfred was the biggest win for me, as Dick might be Bruce's best apprentice but if he's a chip off any old block, it's probably more the Alfred Block - performer, loyal friend, master of SPYCRAFT ... oh yes, he's like "Alfred Junior" in a lot of ways so it's really nice to see that played out. Getting back to Blockbuster. Friendship with Babs, I guess there's a Post-Death Metal dynamic presently that we can see how it shakes out. Probably more Sam & Diane nonsense but at least she'll be supporting here, too. Bodyguard does* look like Onyx it's true, that was my first thought as well. Maybe someone new though. Another "Bat City Mayor" comes and goes. 

My biggest curiosity hails directly from Melinda's identity and just the continuity/chronology questions of what it means to have a Zucco kicking around, because there's so many things to think about. There's Golden Age Zucco. There's Bronze Age Zucco. There's TAS Robin's Reckoning. There's Dark Victory with "Fat Tony". There's the svelte Zucco of the New 52 Chicago run and his new family. There's Scott Snyder's whole Sonia angle, which was an angle I liked. There's a lot, you know? In my own head I've been pondering the notion that there almost had to be "Two Tony Zuccos" if you want to include all the really cool stories, elements and revisits. But comics being comics, I've never opposed to evil siblings we've never heard of, so Melinda being Sonia's sister could work fine for me. It does basically demand some answers about Sonia's whereabouts within this story.

I really like what Taylor is doing already with the mixing of Dick's Flying Grayson/Zucco origin, Blockbuster rivalry, Alfred-mentor/mentee thing, and presumably cross-purposes between Babs, Melinda, and maybe if Sonia shows up, these various powerful women making things challenging for him. I think it's a good mix of story elements to throw in a blender for a first issue. Now I'll just go re-read the Tim Seeley stuff from Grayson up through Rebirth and turn my brain back on from the Fugue State that was "Ric".

----------


## Vordan

-Overall the issue was good if safe which is frankly what the character needed after the Ric saga. Reminds me of Seeley Nightwing Rebirth. Blockbuster is set up as the big bad, Dick & Babs are together. Pretty standard status quo to start.
-Issue was pretty thin on plot and was more about setup. Not a whole lot happens and the pace will need to pick up to retain my interest
-Art’s good as expected 
-The dog made me roll my eyes. It’s one of Taylor’s cliches that he loves to introduce a “hecking gud boy” animal for his characters to coo over (he did it in Wolverine, Injustice 2, and probably elsewhere) and I just am utterly indifferent to the cheap “feels” bait 
-Dick seems to be written well but I hope Taylor won’t make Babs the brains and Dick just an idiot who follows directions over the comm
-Another Zucco daughter? I’ll give it a shot but I need to get a reason why he created another OC
-I liked the Alfred letter and Dick being richer than Bruce now is funny

All in all I’d give it an 8/10. Does a good job and there’s potential here, but Taylor needs to avoid a lot of his usual cliches to keep me interested. But it’s a damn sight better than pretty much everything since Humphries left the book

----------


## Drako

I love how the girls are showing him support in this.





> -The dog made me roll my eyes. It’s one of Taylor’s cliches that he loves to introduce a “hecking gud boy” animal for his characters to coo over (he did it in Wolverine, Injustice 2, and probably elsewhere) and I just am utterly indifferent to the cheap “feels” bait


If Batwing is anything like Jonathan, the real wolverine, i'm happy!

----------


## dropkickjake

Not a whole lot happened, but everything that happened was given proper space to breath. I like that. I'm curious about Melinda. Seems like its your standard "You put my dad away, now I hate you!" plot line, but could go in any direction really. Dick/Babs interaction was fine, but there was enough in it to give ppl pause about the BabsSmart DickDumb trope. The art was beautiful. Best art in a Nightwing book I've seen in a bit. That two page spread for the title... wow. Didn't see the neon/Casino bludhaven that seeley seemed to mention in his tweet. that was disappointing, but maybe it'll come up again. Either way, Bludhaven doesn't really feel like knock-off Gotham yet, which makes me happy. All in all, it doesn't (yet) feel like Dick is going to save the universe, but it does feel like this is going to be a great, smaller scale story about Dick Grayson. I like that.

Re- other kids in the will: First, making arguments from silence is silly. The whole argument feels a little silly to me. This is about the hypothetical scenario in which Alfred didn't leave anything to the others? Really? Secondly, the letter itself didn't mention that he gave Dick the money because he had a better relationship with him, but because he trusted his goodness the most. He trusted Dick to do the most good possible with the money. Makes sense to me.

----------


## Rac7d*

Let’s keep this up all year
The foundation for a Nightwing solo series is being laid down
23D16526-4DF8-4DF8-ADD3-43DC3A7FA516.jpg

----------


## Vordan

> Let’s keep this up all year
> The foundation for a Nightwing solo series is being laid down
> 23D16526-4DF8-4DF8-ADD3-43DC3A7FA516.jpg


Critics love Taylor’s stuff so no surprise it’s reviewing well. Gotta admit I am wary of people obsessing over critic scores in regards to comics the way they do movies, TV, and video games. Don’t feel like the obsession over aggregate scores has served those mediums well.

----------


## Robanker

This was fun! I'm glad to have a Taylor DC book I enjoy. Redondo's art is the real triumph here, and I don't mean that as a dig to anyone else working on it (with special mention to the colors being decidedly on point).

It was a good opening statement. Taylor writes a good Dick Grayson who is more himself than he's been in a long time, Ric or no. Right level of humor and seriousness. The Barbara dynamic worked well too and I love that dog.

This feels very much like it's riffing on the Dixon run. Looking forward to the next issue and "HATS ON ICE"!

----------


## Restingvoice

BrunDo's design notes. A tiny backpack with magnet to hold the escrima sticks

It's Wingding, B

Inside his apartment, which is different than old Clancy's. By the looks of it, and how Dick is comfortable hanging out without mask outside the building, there's no other tenant or superintendent.


https://stxleslyds.tumblr.com/post/6...ightwings-suit

----------


## Drako

Oh! He made a little backpack! That's actually brilliant! No need for a belt or anything, he can keep his visual as clean as possible!

Awesome!

----------


## Pohzee

> BrunDo's design notes. A tiny backpack with magnet to hold the escrima sticks
> 
> It's Wingding, B
> 
> Inside his apartment, which is different than old Clancy's. By the looks of it, and how Dick is comfortable hanging out without mask outside the building, there's no other tenant or superintendent.
> 
> 
> https://stxleslyds.tumblr.com/post/6...ightwings-suit


Is that a costume redesign I see? Arms stripes, no boot swishes, boxing wraps, and a backpack none of which are seen in the current issue. Perhaps an Oracle inspired upgrade is in the works.

----------


## mib86

I love those trapeze-like escrima sticks, considering Dick's circus background, they are so appropriate. :EEK!: 
It makes you wonder why no one has ever thought about it before, in all these years.

----------


## Lady Nightwing

Oooh, new costume. That's pretty exciting

----------


## Pohzee

I take it back for all the times I told Godlike that costume changes were bad because they were too radical and the changes I wanted were incremental. This is pretty much perfect.

----------


## Drako

> Is that a costume redesign I see? Arms stripes, no boot swishes, boxing wraps, and a backpack none of which are seen in the current issue. Perhaps an Oracle inspired upgrade is in the works.


I didn't even notice the arm stripes! I liked a lot too!

----------


## Avi

The tiny backpack plus magnetic stripe is cool. Maybe a small costume change is why they teased the "Dick in front of his costume" panel.
Would be nice if we saw him tinker on it himself. Alfred just called him a problem solver after all.

A little sad that Dick's apartment complex is just gonna be empty. It makes more sense though, I guess, and he can still have noisy and interesting neighbors.

----------


## Grayson - The Dark Heir

I don't like that we're going back to Dick looking nude from the chest down again, but the other additions are super cool. Here's hoping that's an actual redesign concept and not just a scrapped concept for one (Bernard Chang had his own Nightwing redesign concept for Humphries run that went unused).

----------


## Frontier

I don't really think about where Dick keeps his escrima sticks that much but the backpack is pretty cool  :Smile: .

----------


## dropkickjake

I’m here for the arm stripes and boxing wraps. Hope those make it in. Boxing wraps would be a new take on his look for sure. 

Re-the apartment not being the one from Dixon days. While this is likely true, nothing we’ve seen so far precludes this. There are almost certainly other tenets in the building as he specifically mentioned not wanting to raise the rent even though he was strapped for cash. And it looks like we are looking at two floors of the building there. In the issue Babs mentions being three floors up. So we likely aren’t looking at the full interior there, just a large two floor suite.

----------


## Drako

Nightwing #81

written by Tom Taylor
art by Bruno Redondo
cover by Bruno Redondo
Pride card stock variant cover by TRAVIS
MOORE $4.99 US| FC | DC
variant cover by Rafael Grassetti
card stock variant cover $4.99 US | FC | DC
ON SALE 6/15/2021
$3.99 US | 32 PAGES | FC | DC

Dick Grayson trades out his escrima sticks for a magnifying glass and a sleuth hat to investigate Blüdhavens new mayor, Melinda Zucco, and find out how the daughter of the man who murdered Dicks parents came to power in Nightwings city. But his investigative adventure is cut short when he comes face to face with the most horrendous villain in the history of BlüdhavenHEARTLESS.

----------


## Drako

Future State: Gotham #2

written by Joshua Williamson AND
Dennis Culver
art by Giannis Milonogiannis
cover by LADRÖNN
card stock variant cover by Derrick Chew
ON SALE 6/8/2021
$3.99 US | 32 PAGES | FC | DC
card stock variant cover $4.99 US | FC | DC

Tragedy has brought Gotham City to its knees. Countless people are dead, seemingly at the hands of the Next Batman. Gotham demands justice, and Red Hood has vowed to answer their call. Even if that means beating his way through Nightwing and the rest of the Bat-Family to do it.

----------


## Restingvoice

> Nightwing #81
> 
> written by Tom Taylor
> art by Bruno Redondo
> cover by Bruno Redondo
> Pride card stock variant cover by TRAVIS
> MOORE $4.99 US| FC | DC
> variant cover by Rafael Grassetti
> card stock variant cover $4.99 US | FC | DC
> ...


First cover, it looks like he's interrupted in the middle of a dance number
Second cover, nice details but his whole arm and shoulder looks like he's made of rubber

===

By popular demand, Brun-do has released the textless version of this page

----------


## Rakiduam

So...Jason is going to beat him up too? ....Wow. This brand, new direction is doing wonders for Nightwing, really A list material.

----------


## HsssH

Taylor probably can't really influence what is happening in Future State title.

----------


## byrd156

> BrunDo's design notes. A tiny backpack with magnet to hold the escrima sticks
> 
> It's Wingding, B
> 
> Inside his apartment, which is different than old Clancy's. By the looks of it, and how Dick is comfortable hanging out without mask outside the building, there's no other tenant or superintendent.
> 
> 
> https://stxleslyds.tumblr.com/post/6...ightwings-suit


Such a great redesign.

----------


## Badou

He still has that bad looking bird head on his chest that looks so awkward to me. They need to get rid of that and do something with his legs where it isn't just all black from his chest down where it can look weird artist to artist. Making the escrima sticks do more is nice. They desperately need to give Dick more interesting equipment to spice up his encounters and allow for more creative fights and problem solving. Just having him do little flips and kicks gets so dull after a while, but having the escrima sticks turn into grappling hooks, nunchucks, and maybe even a bo staff or spear/blades in the future would help fix that some. Basically just turn them into some kind of multitool since they refuse to give Dick a utility belt. 

Also it looks like from the solicits that Detective Comics #1038 isn't going to have anything to do with Robin or Dick's character. It is the 1000th anniversary issue of Dick's first appearance in Detective Comics #38 back in 1940 but it doesn't look like DC cared enough to do anything special for it. Feels like a missed opportunity there.

----------


## Rac7d*

I originally ignore syndercut discussions becuase I knew they had taken Dick Grayson off the board. It be nice if the flash movie could bring some version of him to us.

----------


## WonderNight

> I originally ignore syndercut discussions becuase I knew they had taken Dick Grayson off the board. It be nice if the flash movie could bring some version of him to us.


That's what I'm hoping fo, bring dick back in flashpoint. Especially with batman on his why out of the dceu, it's the perfect time for nightwing to step up.

----------


## Badou

The best you can hope for is Nightwing or Robin appearing in the Batgirl movie. That announcement of all the upcoming projects from WB showed zero interest in Nightwing or Robin. There still seems to be some stigma with a live action movie version of the character in the eyes of WB/DC.

----------


## mib86

> The best you can hope for is Nightwing or Robin appearing in the Batgirl movie. That announcement of all the upcoming projects from WB showed zero interest in Nightwing or Robin. There still seems to be some stigma with a live action movie version of the character in the eyes of WB/DC.


I think, even after all these years, in Hollywood. there is still the lasting bias of the Batman and Robin disaster.
I hope the Gotham Knight game will be able to give it a little more light in the mainstream audience next year.
After all, that's what happened with Harley Quinn after the Arkam saga

----------


## WonderNight

Honestly I feel it has more to do with most people in power look at nightwing as nothing more than a batman-lite/sidekick.

Bad isn't hurting them from pushing green lantern, catwoman or wonder woman from the big screens

That's why I what nightwing to be a global hero because right now a nightwing movie would just be a batman movie without batman in it.

----------


## Wingin' It

> Not only that but the old Joker would never allow this thing called Batfam.
> 
> Batfam basically breaks the Joker. He can never be allowed to do harm to any of them.


He's just some guy in a purple suit. He doesn't "allow" them to live, he doesn't have any better defenses against them than any other normal human. The reason neither dies is because people want to write stories with these characters in them. Also, the Joker hasn't been written as an interesting villain in years and has suffered from great overexposure; fine with me if he starts to take a back seat in Bats' rouges gallery.

----------


## Wingin' It

> The best you can hope for is Nightwing or Robin appearing in the Batgirl movie. That announcement of all the upcoming projects from WB showed zero interest in Nightwing or Robin. There still seems to be some stigma with a live action movie version of the character in the eyes of WB/DC.


The adult Robin thing from the Batman and Robin live action film is an issue, but the whole child soldier aspect complicates it even more. Robin is a popular character in comics, but people tend to give animation a pass they wouldn't for a blockbuster superhero flick.

----------


## prepmaster

> He's just some guy in a purple suit. He doesn't "allow" them to live, he doesn't have any better defenses against them than any other normal human. The reason neither dies is because people want to write stories with these characters in them. Also, the Joker hasn't been written as an interesting villain in years and has suffered from great overexposure; fine with me if he starts to take a back seat in Bats' rouges gallery.


Joker wants to break Batman on an emotional/psychological level. The best way to do it is to go after those that are close to him. But you have more of these characters that are basically not gonna be hurt because they have already been brought back from death or being disabled, then whats Joker doing?

My avatar represents the pain that Batman has to suffer in his crime fighting life.

----------


## Badou

> The adult Robin thing from the Batman and Robin live action film is an issue, but the whole child soldier aspect complicates it even more. Robin is a popular character in comics, but people tend to give animation a pass they wouldn't for a blockbuster superhero flick.


But at the same time they are making a Batgirl and Supergirl movie and have other teen focused superhero projects in the works and have done things like Shazam. It feels like it is specifically Robin that DC/WB has an issue with in live action movies. Probably because how it effects Batman. I think the Batman and Robin movie really hurt how they look at the character, but then with Nolan's Batman trilogy Nolan and Bale detested the idea of Robin and set the character back for another generation. Then Snyder followed Nolan's trend with not wanting to use Robin and even preferring to kill Robin/Dick in the past off screen unceremoniously because he probably looks at the Robin character as being stupid/childish and isn't "cool" enough for his edgy Batman. It just sucks. 

There has been so many things piled against the Robin character in live action movies that it is such a tough hole to climb out of now. I hope that Reeve's Batman maybe changes this trend, but my gut tells me that it is just going to be more of the same with a new director for a new generation refusing to want to use Robin. So we are left hoping the character can maybe appear in Batgirl's movie, which is kind of sad given the iconic nature of the character.

----------


## Wingin' It

> But at the same time they are making a Batgirl and Supergirl movie and have other teen focused superhero projects in the works and have done things like Shazam. It feels like it is specifically Robin that DC/WB has an issue with in live action movies. Probably because how it effects Batman. I think the Batman and Robin movie really hurt how they look at the character, but then with Nolan's Batman trilogy Nolan and Bale detested the idea of Robin and set the character back for another generation. Then Snyder followed Nolan's trend with not wanting to use Robin and even preferring to kill Robin/Dick in the past off screen unceremoniously because he probably looks at the Robin character as being stupid/childish and isn't "cool" enough for his edgy Batman. It just sucks. 
> 
> There has been so many things piled against the Robin character in live action movies that it is such a tough hole to climb out of now. I hope that Reeve's Batman maybe changes this trend, but my gut tells me that it is just going to be more of the same with a new director for a new generation refusing to want to use Robin. So we are left hoping the character can maybe appear in Batgirl's movie, which is kind of sad given the iconic nature of the character.


Do we know that Batgirl and Supergirl are going to be teens and not young adults? Plus, Supergirl/Shazam are practically invulnerable.

I agree, I think it sucks too. It's part of what killed my interest in Zach Synder's stuff. Maybe one day, but I'm not holding my breath.

----------


## Ascended

Got to read the issue Wednesday night (made a 45 minute drive to my LCS after work *just* to get this). And I'm not disappointed in the least. It was the kind of classic status reset I expected to get after all the Ric nonsense, and felt like a breath of sweet, fresh air. Taylor gave each moment plenty of space to stretch and breathe, Dick's voice felt pretty spot on, and I think Taylor nailed the reading of the will and Dick's response to it. And the art was superb on every level. Definitely one of the best looking comics I've picked up lately, and that's saying something considering how good a lot of the Future State art has been.

Not the most action packed or fastest paced issue out there, and I hope to see denser storytelling going forward, but for what this issue needed to be and what it needed to set up I think it did a fantastic job. I hope that as we get deeper into the run, Taylor will pick up the pacing and expand Dick's mythos beyond Bludhaven, find some niche that Dick can call his own that'll help him stand out as more than just another Bat. But you gotta get things back on track before you can rebuild in any meaningful way and I think Taylor did very well here. I'm not even that bothered by Babs flipping Dick when he got to his apartment and I got a big bias against the "Babs good/smart, Dick bad/dumb" troupe.

I don't know how some of y'all can even be mad right now. It's been years since Dick's book was half this good and two days later I'm still riding the high of this issue. What're you even mad at? Because a solicit said Jason was gonna beat up Dick in some Future State mini? Because a solicit never lies right? Yeah, hate to tell y'all this but Dick is still gonna lose fights here or there; even Bruce loses a fight sometimes, and it's not like Jason's incapable of winning. Not like Dick's an alien sun god getting chumped by an old man. What else you mad at? That WB claims the Batgirl movie is happening, just like they've claimed for years and years without any actual movement happening? Look at how terrible most of the DC movies are; even if Batgirl does get a film (and I have my doubts) that's not a missed opportunity for Nightwing, it's a bullet dodged.

----------


## Robanker

> Got to read the issue Wednesday night (made a 45 minute drive to my LCS after work *just* to get this). And I'm not disappointed in the least. It was the kind of classic status reset I expected to get after all the Ric nonsense, and felt like a breath of sweet, fresh air. Taylor gave each moment plenty of space to stretch and breathe, Dick's voice felt pretty spot on, and I think Taylor nailed the reading of the will and Dick's response to it. And the art was superb on every level. Definitely one of the best looking comics I've picked up lately, and that's saying something considering how good a lot of the Future State art has been.
> 
> Not the most action packed or fastest paced issue out there, and I hope to see denser storytelling going forward, but for what this issue needed to be and what it needed to set up I think it did a fantastic job. I hope that as we get deeper into the run, Taylor will pick up the pacing and expand Dick's mythos beyond Bludhaven, find some niche that Dick can call his own that'll help him stand out as more than just another Bat. But you gotta get things back on track before you can rebuild in any meaningful way and I think Taylor did very well here. I'm not even that bothered by Babs flipping Dick when he got to his apartment and I got a big bias against the "Babs good/smart, Dick bad/dumb" troupe.
> 
> I don't know how some of y'all can even be mad right now. It's been years since Dick's book was half this good and two days later I'm still riding the high of this issue. What're you even mad at? Because a solicit said Jason was gonna beat up Dick in some Future State mini? Because a solicit never lies right? Yeah, hate to tell y'all this but Dick is still gonna lose fights here or there; even Bruce loses a fight sometimes, and it's not like Jason's incapable of winning. Not like Dick's an alien sun god getting chumped by an old man. What else you mad at? That WB claims the Batgirl movie is happening, just like they've claimed for years and years without any actual movement happening? Look at how terrible most of the DC movies are; even if Batgirl does get a film (and I have my doubts) that's not a missed opportunity for Nightwing, it's a bullet dodged.


Not going to lie, it feels a little like when I first picked up an issue of Dixon's run and how Dick jumped to my favorite character back in the day. There's potential here. It's finally a good time to be a Nightwing fan.

----------


## Badou

> Do we know that Batgirl and Supergirl are going to be teens and not young adults? Plus, Supergirl/Shazam are practically invulnerable.
> 
> I agree, I think it sucks too. It's part of what killed my interest in Zach Synder's stuff. Maybe one day, but I'm not holding my breath.


I imagine they will be young adults. The Supergirl actress for the Flash movie has already been cast and she is 25. More Batgirl movie info will probably come this year.

----------


## Rakiduam

> Got to read the issue Wednesday night (made a 45 minute drive to my LCS after work *just* to get this). And I'm not disappointed in the least. It was the kind of classic status reset I expected to get after all the Ric nonsense, and felt like a breath of sweet, fresh air. Taylor gave each moment plenty of space to stretch and breathe, Dick's voice felt pretty spot on, and I think Taylor nailed the reading of the will and Dick's response to it. And the art was superb on every level. Definitely one of the best looking comics I've picked up lately, and that's saying something considering how good a lot of the Future State art has been.
> 
> Not the most action packed or fastest paced issue out there, and I hope to see denser storytelling going forward, but for what this issue needed to be and what it needed to set up I think it did a fantastic job. I hope that as we get deeper into the run, Taylor will pick up the pacing and expand Dick's mythos beyond Bludhaven, find some niche that Dick can call his own that'll help him stand out as more than just another Bat. But you gotta get things back on track before you can rebuild in any meaningful way and I think Taylor did very well here. I'm not even that bothered by Babs flipping Dick when he got to his apartment and I got a big bias against the "Babs good/smart, Dick bad/dumb" troupe.
> 
> I don't know how some of y'all can even be mad right now. It's been years since Dick's book was half this good and two days later I'm still riding the high of this issue. What're you even mad at? Because a solicit said Jason was gonna beat up Dick in some Future State mini? Because a solicit never lies right? Yeah, hate to tell y'all this but Dick is still gonna lose fights here or there; even Bruce loses a fight sometimes, and it's not like Jason's incapable of winning. Not like Dick's an alien sun god getting chumped by an old man. What else you mad at? That WB claims the Batgirl movie is happening, just like they've claimed for years and years without any actual movement happening? Look at how terrible most of the DC movies are; even if Batgirl does get a film (and I have my doubts) that's not a missed opportunity for Nightwing, it's a bullet dodged.


I'm sick and tired to see him beaten down so other characters look good, shouldn't happen on his own book, tired of his world being this small and repetitive too.


It was as standard as it gets, the only great part was the color palate.

I don't care about the movies one bit, just hope he doesn't get stuck as Barbara's boyfriend.

----------


## Ascended

> I'm sick and tired to see him beaten down so other characters look good, shouldn't happen on his own book, tired of his world being this small and repetitive too.


And I'm with you on all of that. But Dick's not getting beat down in his own book right now, that's some random FS mini (and who gives a damn about a random FS mini and its solicit that's probably lying anyway?). And he's back to the small world that is Bludhaven, but we're *one* issue deep and Taylor has *a lot* of damage control to take care of after Ric. Let's give him more than twenty pages to expand the franchise, yknow? It's not gonna do anybody any good to build things up when the foundation is still built on Ric.

I figure we'll get one trade's worth of material that'll be pretty normal Dixon-esque Nightwing. After those six issues, I'll be expecting and demanding that Taylor build the mythos up and get into new territory, but for right now I'm quite content to just get Dick's feet back on recognizable ground. The IP was broken pretty badly, it's gonna take more than a couple issues to get things back on track and then aim it at a bigger target.

This was a solid story that is very squarely and definitely within Dick's sphere of influence and narrative core. Been a long damn time since we've had even that basic level of storytelling competency, and while I'm as anxious as anyone to see Dick elevated and pushed to new heights by DC, that's not something that'll happen instantly. I'm not gonna happily settle for a Dixon flavored, basic bitch Nightwing, but I also recognize that getting the IP into something bigger and new, and doing that properly, is gonna take a minute. 

I mean, ffs, it's been two years since Dick was even Dick, and longer since his book was of even average quality. I'll take what Taylor gave us over what we had, any day of the week. I hope we get more, and Taylor actually delivers on the promise of building Dick into an A-lister, but for right now I'm just super happy to have a Nightwing book worth reading again. This was the first step out of the gate, not the finish line, and we shouldn't judge this issue on what we want the end result to be.

----------


## Godlike13

It’s about protecting the brand. On one hand their check out this new direction, on the other it’s here he is getting his ass kicked. This bipolar kind of production with the character is destructive. They did the same thing with Seeley’s run and Abnett’s Titans. One undermines the other. You can’t expect readers to take the character as credible, and want to invest more in him, when they constantly keep throwing him under others anywhere else they look. Especially after Ric. How about they give the new run some room to breath before they job the character elsewhere. I know no one else in the family besides Batman has any real status, but still try picking someone else for a change. The character can’t really afford it anymore.
I remember Priest talking about starting his Deathstroke run, and how he push DC to be more careful with how they use him as him continually losing encounters dilutes the brand.

----------


## Ascended

Eh, I don't know that I agree. The fact that DC uses Nightwing as a whipping boy so much kind of shows what his profile and status are. Same thing happens to Superman; when you want to showcase how powerful and badass your character is, you have them beat up Clark. When you want your street level guy to showcase how cool they are, they fight Nightwing. 

I hate the jobbing too, so gods damn much, but there's a reason it happens to Dick and not someone like Duke, Helena, Kate, or Tim. Beating those guys doesn't really mean anything, beating Dick does.

If the argument is that DC abuses everyone except Batman, well yeah, that's a serious problem that has devalued every IP DC owns, including Batman's. But that's not a Nightwing problem it's a DC problem and goes well beyond Grayson. Dick losing a fight isn't really detrimental to the brand, that's not where the abuse is happening; the lack of investment, autonomy, and positive character development/world building is where the abuse is happening. And if we can believe DC and Taylor, that sh*t ended when Didio got canned and we're just now catching up with that change in focus.

And I think everyone is over-valuing the impact a random FS mini is going to have either way.

----------


## Restingvoice

We don't know if Jason will beat up Dick but even if he does the story is set 10 years in the future. It took Dick less than 10 years since his adulthood to be able to beat Bruce. I get about branding but if it makes sense I don't have a problem with it.

----------


## Badou

I just don't understand that mindset. That you need to backtrack so far again just because Ric was bad. No on really cares in the end I think. All you need is a new creative team, an interesting direction, a bit of marketing, and you are all set. So the idea that because Ric was awful that you have to dig up more Dixon nostalgia out of some kind of panic by hitting a reset button just feels weird to me. This is the 4th time we've sat through the Blockbuster and Bludhaven dance number and the idea that this time it will be different and somehow elevate Dick's character to some kind of A-list or something feels like wishful thinking. Blockbuster will never be the kind of antagonist that will take Dick's character to where his fans want him to be, imo.

I mean if they felt that the property was broken so badly then they would have relaunched the title with a new #1 to move the character away from Ric, but they didn't. I have no idea why they didn't as it will just cost the title tens of thousands of sales probably. It isn't like this random issue #78 means anything. Maybe if they took the title back to its legacy numbering in the high 200s it would make more sense, but they didn't even do that.

----------


## Arsenal

We also don't know the context of the fight or the circumstances of the L. 

For all we know Dick loses because he threw the fight to keep up appearances/avoid exposing an ongoing operation.

----------


## Restingvoice

> I just don't understand that mindset. That you need to backtrack so far again just because Ric was bad. No on really cares in the end I think. All you need is a new creative team, an interesting direction, a bit of marketing, and you are all set. So the idea that because Ric was awful that you have to dig up more Dixon nostalgia out of some kind of panic by hitting a reset button just feels weird to me. This is the 4th time we've sat through the Blockbuster and Bludhaven dance number and the idea that this time it will be different and somehow elevate Dick's character to some kind of A-list or something feels like wishful thinking. Blockbuster will never be the kind of antagonist that will take Dick's character to where his fans want him to be, imo.
> 
> I mean if they felt that the property was broken so badly then they would have relaunched the title with a new #1 to move the character away from Ric, but they didn't. I have no idea why they didn't as it will just cost the title tens of thousands of sales probably. It isn't like this random issue #78 means anything. Maybe if they took the title back to its legacy numbering in the high 200s it would make more sense, but they didn't even do that.


Wait, fourth? What's the second?

----------


## Badou

> Wait, fourth? What's the second?


I'd count Dixon and Grayson's runs are two different ones. So Dixon, Grayson, Seeley, and now Taylor.

----------


## Avi

Sure, we don't know if Jason will mow through the bats. But there is a reason why it's expected. The first arc of FS Gotham is a Jason Todd arc. When there is no Bruce in the way, its not unusual that he wins against the others or gets away on his own terms. 

I dont expect Nightwing to always win, but I remember everyone rejoicing when he got to beat-up KGBeast in Nightwing. No one expected that harsh and quick of a beat-down, and that's when there is a problem. 

I think Dick losing against Jace in hand-to-hand combat was bad timing. It made sense under the conditions Constant introduced but after Ric it's a bad look. And then two months later the Issue that has been praised as such a stand-out reintroduction and new beginning shows Dick getting thrown across his room. Dick in his Nightwing suit, expecting an intruder, getting thrown across his room by Barbara in civil to smack against the wall with no preservation instinct in any bone of his body. For comic relief. Yep, that just aint it.

I am honestly a bit worried about the direction of the run. Yeah, Didio is gone, but at least with Rebirth, we knew Seeley would get past Dixon. In fact, the real Dixon-esque content only came after Raptor. Taylor hasn't really revealed anything as concrete as Seeley did back then. All Taylor has said is that Dick is this great hero, and he keeps comparing his run to his Friendly Neighborhood Spider-Man. That's not really informative.

The only specific story points he gave away in the only interview back in December as part of his big story are Blüdhaven, Barbara, and Zucco. Which I hope is merely the first arc, but who knows. I'm pretty sure Zucco is gonna be a long-term addition.

----------


## Rakiduam

> ....Dick losing a fight isn't really detrimental to the brand, that's not where the abuse is happening; the lack of investment, autonomy, and positive character development/world building is where the abuse is happening. And if we can believe DC and Taylor, that sh*t ended when Didio got canned and we're just now catching up with that change in focus.....


It's a matter of show not tell, and it's not showing. They can say whatever they want but they are doing the same thing they have always done, starting with getting Nighwing beatten up for the benefit of other bats.




> We don't know if Jason will beat up Dick but even if he does the story is set 10 years in the future. It took Dick less than 10 years since his adulthood to be able to beat Bruce. I get about branding but if it makes sense I don't have a problem with it.


I don't think Jason losing is any better, I prefer Dick doesn't get his ass handed to him again, sure, but mostly I can't believe that is 2021 and Jason is still fighting the bat family.

How DC keep the bat characters circling the same stories with to no end in sight is absurd, but then you see the reception and it seem to be what people want, the same relationships, the same dynamics, the same villians .... just change the suits every now and then and you are golden. I can't believe Dick's storyline still revolve around Zucco and Barbara Gordon and people are excited about it.

Jase, Babs, Jason...I assume by August it will be Tim puting Nightwing in the floor. Bat characters are bad for each other, even when they cooperate one is getting jobbed for the other.

----------


## Restingvoice

> How DC keep the bat characters circling the same stories with to no end in sight is absurd, but then you see the reception and it seem to be what people want, the same relationships, the same dynamics, the same villians .... just change the suits every now and then and you are golden. I can't believe Dick's storyline still revolve around Zucco and Barbara Gordon and people are excited about it.


with how the stories changed at DC I'm not surprised. People liked Dixon's run, then Devin Grayson murdered everyone, get Dick and Babs engaged, then Didio murdered everyone. For those who like those, it's like the story just stops, and now it's continued. 

I mean Dick Kori fans still seething about the cancelled marriage in the early 90s. Some of them still blaming Babs. Then with 2003 Teen Titans, 2018 Titans, and now this



People are grasping at breadcrumbs like the mouths of Koi in Asian freshwater fish restaurant pond (that is a way longer and very specific analogy than I thought and I'm sorry but I don't know if you got those in America)

Like I'm serious. I saw Dick Kori fans going yay at this and I had to resist pointing out Dick Babs happening over at Taylor's Nightwing meaning they're still doing the dangle for both of them

----------


## Rakiduam

> with how the stories changed at DC I'm not surprised. People liked Dixon's run, then Devin Grayson murdered everyone, get Dick and Babs engaged, then Didio murdered everyone. For those who like those, it's like the story just stops, and now it's continued. 
> 
> I mean Dick Kori fans still seething about the cancelled marriage in the early 90s. Some of them still blaming Babs. Then with 2003 Teen Titans, 2018 Titans, and now this
> 
> 
> 
> People are grasping at breadcrumbs like the mouths of Koi in Asian freshwater fish restaurant pond (that is a way longer and very specific analogy than I thought and I'm sorry but I don't know if you got those in America)
> 
> Like I'm serious. I saw Dick Kori fans going yay at this and I had to resist pointing out Dick Babs happening over at Taylor's Nightwing meaning they're still doing the dangle for both of them


Frankly, I think Dick's development came with the NTT and stopped with Dixon's run, and his relationship with Kori was way ahead of his relationship with Babs, but at this point everyone should move on. 

It would be awesome if DC stoped dismissing, erasing or corrupting Dick's life outside of the Bat's sphere though.

----------


## prepmaster

> Jace, Babs, Jason...I assume by August it will be Tim puting Nightwing in the floor. Bat characters are bad for each other, even when they cooperate one is getting jobbed for the other.


Batman was supposed to have only one or two underlings to draw in female and younger male demographics. Now you have all these underlings that make each other redudant. Artists now have to draw unnecessary panels of these underlings taking out fodders.

The problem with NW is that he has a background of being a supporting character, with Red Hood is the background of being an antagonist. Being an interesting supporting character / interesting antagonist doesnt make those characters become strong protagonists that can sustain their books. They need more to be able to sustain their books.

In terms of street level, Batman's Gotham is decades ahead of Nightwing's Bludhaven.

----------


## Rakiduam

> Batman was supposed to have only one or two underlings to draw in female and younger male demographics. Now you have all these underlings that make each other redudant. Artists now have to draw unnecessary panels of these underlings taking out fodders.
> 
> The problem with NW is that he has a background of being a supporting character, with Red Hood is the background of being an antagonist. Being an interesting supporting character / interesting antagonist doesnt make those characters become strong protagonists that can sustain their books. They need more to be able to sustain their books.


Actually I think the problem is that edditorial sees them like that, and they are not willing to let them grown beyond that. I don't follow Jason but every time Nightwing has build up intersting elemnts or has been part of interesting stories, it was cut short or just absorved by the brand, to the point that Titans is now a Bat family show.

The problem is not within the characters, but with the shortsight of the editorial.

eddit: Now that I think about it, last year Batman was fighting with the Joker and the Joker and the Joker again....and having a relationship with Selina... and had a new sidekick, I think). Batman is not a paragon of originality either.

----------


## Godlike13

> Eh, I don't know that I agree. *The fact that DC uses Nightwing as a whipping boy so much kind of shows what his profile and status are.* Same thing happens to Superman; when you want to showcase how powerful and badass your character is, you have them beat up Clark. When you want your street level guy to showcase how cool they are, they fight Nightwing. 
> 
> I hate the jobbing too, so gods damn much, but there's a reason it happens to Dick and not someone like Duke, Helena, Kate, or Tim. Beating those guys doesn't really mean anything, beating Dick does.
> 
> If the argument is that DC abuses everyone except Batman, well yeah, that's a serious problem that has devalued every IP DC owns, including Batman's. But that's not a Nightwing problem it's a DC problem and goes well beyond Grayson. Dick losing a fight isn't really detrimental to the brand, that's not where the abuse is happening; the lack of investment, autonomy, and positive character development/world building is where the abuse is happening. And if we can believe DC and Taylor, that sh*t ended when Didio got canned and we're just now catching up with that change in focus.
> 
> And I think everyone is over-valuing the impact a random FS mini is going to have either way.


Ya, a whipping boy. Nightwing’s not Superman or Batman. He doesn’t have the brand security or general exposer that they have. Continually positioning him under other characters and to show how cooler they are hurts the brand. It won’t matter what Taylor does if no one cares enough to check out his book. And why would they when everywhere else they might see the character he’s getting his ass kicked to show how so and so is cooler. The random FS mini, and really his FS book (which was fine, but it’s purpose was to have him give the new Batman the nod), is continuing a pattern that undermines the idea that that stuff is over. And quite frankly he just can’t afford it anymore.

----------


## Claude

> I mean if they felt that the property was broken so badly then they would have relaunched the title with a new #1 to move the character away from Ric, but they didn't. I have no idea why they didn't as it will just cost the title tens of thousands of sales probably. It isn't like this random issue #78 means anything. Maybe if they took the title back to its legacy numbering in the high 200s it would make more sense, but they didn't even do that.


I wonder if someone's crunched the numbers, and being 22 issues out from a #100 is more profitable than a new #1. 


I've not been around as much lately, so sorry if I've missed it - but what do people think about Teen Titans Academy and Suicide Squad being "sister titles". Lots of Nightwing connections on the Squad's roster, Thompson moving to it from Titans, and the Red X story being told across both titles... 

On the one hand, it's nice to have a bit of scale. On the other hand, that first Suicide Squad issue fell a way short of blowing me away.

----------


## Ascended

> I just don't understand that mindset. That you need to backtrack so far again just because Ric was bad. No on really cares in the end I think. All you need is a new creative team, an interesting direction, a bit of marketing, and you are all set.


That's a totally viable option, yeah. But hitting the refresh button for a minute is just as viable. You just don't like it as much.

If it were me coming onto the book after the last few years, and not just Ric but everything since the New52, maybe even Infinite Crisis (Ric was a symptom of a deeper problem, not the problem itself)....if it were me, I'd hit the reset button too. 

The thing with new directions is that, unless they grow organically from what came before, they usually don't stick. How many writers in the last dozen years have done a cold launch on a new direction, only to see it flounder? This approach isn't working either. It's not helping Dick or building him up, if anything it keeps ripping what established mythos he *does* have apart. So yeah, I'd take Dick back to something resembling his classic status quo for a bit. For one, it's a palate cleanser; we spent two years with a new direction, had several other new directions before that with no real growth anywhere to be found. Before launching yet another new direction I'd take a minute to do something more familiar and comfortable. I'd re-examine and reassert the elements from the classic status quo that I'd want to build on, then introduce the elements of my new direction over several issues and let them all play off each other a little so the new direction feels more natural; evolution and not plastic surgery. And by the second trade the new direction would be in full swing....but those first six would be spent making something that could be sustainable.




> This is the 4th time we've sat through the Blockbuster and Bludhaven dance number and the idea that this time it will be different and somehow elevate Dick's character to some kind of A-list or something feels like wishful thinking. Blockbuster will never be the kind of antagonist that will take Dick's character to where his fans want him to be, imo.


It probably isn't, no. I hold out hope that this is just where Taylor starts, and not where he ends. But even if Taylor does nothing but rehash Dixon, that's still miles better than what we've had and I'll take a well done, quality story that's basic bitch Nightwing over some poorly conceived, poorly executed piece of garbage that doesn't resemble Nightwing at all. 




> Maybe if they took the title back to its legacy numbering in the high 200s it would make more sense, but they didn't even do that.


I'd guess they'll save that for issue 300, if they do it at all. 




> It's a matter of show not tell, and it's not showing. They can say whatever they want but they are doing the same thing they have always done, starting with getting Nighwing beatten up for the benefit of other bats.


It is indeed a matter of show not tell. But we are *just* entering the "show" phase of things. And what has DC done? Given us a solid FS mini (I missed the 1st issue but people here seemed to like it) and one (ONE) issue by Taylor where the biggest things to bitch about is that Dick got flipped by a peer and the issue was a Dixon redux. Compared to where we were a year ago, this is the good life, ladies and gentlemen. And I hate the Babs thing too, I don't want her in this book at all and I think she and Dick bring out the worst in each other and their every interaction makes me cringe regardless of how well the page is actually written. But *this* is what we got to complain about right now? This is as bad as we're getting? Come on. With only three issues total to judge DC on, I'd say they're doing pretty well on the "show" side of things.

Doesn't mean they're gonna make the Nightwing you (or I) personally want. But if they put in the effort they deserve credit for that. And if they don't give us the Nightwing we want, then one of us needs to go pro and take over the book because DC can't do much more than put skilled, creative people in charge, give the character plenty of places to shine (without turning him into a flawless Gary Sue), and hope it resonates with fans.

And the Jason solicit....really guys? Y'all have been around long enough to know that you never trust a solicit; if it's not straight up lying to you it's still making the story sound like something it isn't. I get being angry and over-reacting to every minor slight against Nightwing, because all those things piss me off too (so much!!). But this is a solicit, it's not worth worrying about. 




> Ya, a whipping boy. Nightwings not Superman or Batman. He doesnt have the brand security or general exposer that they have. Continually positioning him under other characters and to show how cooler they are hurts the brand.


Of course it hurts the brand. I said the same thing, and that DC's Bat wanking hurts everything, including Bruce. My point isn't that treating Dick like a whipping boy is a good thing, my point is that it shows that Nightwing still has a powerful profile. By DC standards, it's when they *stop* doing this to Dick (or Clark) that we should be worried, because it'll mean the character's profile is no longer a metric to measure everyone else by. I'm not saying it's good for business or creativity, only that Dick is still a big deal.

----------


## Arsenal

For better or for worse, Dick is currently the Batfam's Worf. Except when somebody takes out the entire Batfam at once, than all involved become red shirts. 

There's maybe 2 other Bats that could possibly serve that role but its unlikely they'll be given it any time soon. Everybody else is either simply to young or lacks the presence needed to make it work.

----------


## Godlike13

> Of course it hurts the brand. I said the same thing, and that DC's Bat wanking hurts everything, including Bruce. My point isn't that treating Dick like a whipping boy is a good thing, my point is that it shows that Nightwing still has a powerful profile. By DC standards, it's when they *stop* doing this to Dick (or Clark) that we should be worried, because it'll mean the character's profile is no longer a metric to measure everyone else by. I'm not saying it's good for business or creativity, only that Dick is still a big deal.


But he's not, and Dick's profile is expendable more so that it is powerful. Thats what it demonstrates. Its a generally known profile, but not one powerful enough that they care to protect, and one they will readily prioritize other characters over. You should be worried about it now, before they get to the point where its too late and he's seen with no worth at all. Which at that point there nothing that can be done about it. Cause that is the edge he's at right now. When you over use a measuring stick, there comes a point audience stop seeing it as a credible measuring stick. And Dick is far beyond that point. No one takes him seriously as measuring stick or a big deal anymore, that's why his book is in the gutter. 

As they now try to dig him out of the hole of being deemed worth the likes of Lobdell and Jurgens and the damage that wrought. Asking readers to take a character seriously again in one place, while simultaneously continuing to portray or market him as lesser everywhere else (as a character so and so is going to beat his way through. Even if it doesn't necessarily play out as such they have now implanted the idea of it nonetheless), doesn't work. Dick's character and profile has been so taken for granted that they are struggling to sell his book now. That is the reality the character finds himself in. The more they continue with this inconsistency, its not going to matter what Taylor does, the character will just continue to trend downward.

----------


## Avi

> I wonder if someone's crunched the numbers, and being 22 issues out from a #100 is more profitable than a new #1. 
> 
> 
> I've not been around as much lately, so sorry if I've missed it - but what do people think about Teen Titans Academy and Suicide Squad being "sister titles". Lots of Nightwing connections on the Squad's roster, Thompson moving to it from Titans, and the Red X story being told across both titles... 
> 
> On the one hand, it's nice to have a bit of scale. On the other hand, that first Suicide Squad issue fell a way short of blowing me away.


I'm not sure how to feel about Suicide Squad and the Teen Titans getting close, simply because it often feels as if Teen Titans is more Suicide than the Squad, which isn't the direction I want for them, especially not while it focuses on fresh-faced teen characters. 

That said, I think the TTA direction and connection to Suicide Squad hold some good opportunities for Dick. They just have to be used. 

While I hope Shrike and Talon remember that their beef is with Nightwing, I'm not gonna believe it until I see it. On the more "pure TTA" side of things, I want Sheridan to show more of Dick's time as the first Red X. I need some backstory. I also hope we get to see a revitalization of the Nightwing & Deathstroke dynamic that was already teased in Future State. 

I can see Deathstroke Inc. being the second sister title to TTA.

----------


## Ascended

> You should be worried about it now, before they get to the point where its too late and he's seen with no worth at all.


I am. Hell I've been here, lamenting the state of the character right alongside everyone else for years and I can be as cynical as anyone. And a few good issues from DC isn't enough to make me stop worrying or remove the concerns I have about how they've approach the IP from a business and creative standpoint.

But I'm trying to give the new people the benefit of the doubt here. Didio and Harras and all the other guys who put Nightwing in the position he's in are gone (and good riddance!). We don't have much content to judge the new guys on yet, but one FS mini and a single Taylor issue deep, what I see is a big, big improvement. Maybe what we've gotten isn't the big, giant shakeup some of us fans wanted to see, but we have actual *quality* right now, and that's more important than anything else. That's more than DC has given us in a long time, and without quality no new status quo is going to matter.

Maybe the new guys will end up as bad as the old ones. Maybe they'll continue to treat Dick like an expendable asset that's only good for propping up Batman (which is how the old guys treated everybody in the DCU). But so far I'm not seeing it. Not yet, at least. I think we have real, concrete reasons to be optimistic. Maybe my optimism will prove to be misplaced, but so far it hasn't been (but again, three issues isn't much to go on).

If some of y'all just aren't feeling Taylor's first issue and the love letter to the Dixon days, all well and good (a Dixon redux isn't where I want Dick to be long-term either, dont get me wrong). Enjoy what you enjoy. But I feel like a lot of the negativity I'm seeing here...it doesn't feel like it's about what is actually on the page as much as it feels like we've just all fallen into the habit of expecting the worst and seeing the worst in every minor panel and line of dialogue, because DC treated Dick and his fans like sh*t for so damn long.

----------


## Godlike13

This isn’t the first time the character has seen quality, the point is having consistency across the board so that that quality isn’t undermined like we have seen before. At an especially vulnerable time. Only 3 months in to this new direction and already seeing them sell the idea of serving him up isn’t a good sign. You can give them the benefit of the doubt, and positivity is fine, but nonetheless that’s a rather concerning red flag. That’s not something to be ignored, because we have quality right now.

----------


## Rac7d*

Happy birthday Grayson
42E70E79-8EE6-402E-B3DD-56E2336D0DCF.jpg42E70E79-8EE6-402E-B3DD-56E2336D0DCF.jpg

----------


## HsssH

What Taylor is doing is definitely an improvement over what we had, but then I finally got around reading Let Them Live! issue and realised that this is what I want instead of whatever Taylor is doing.

I'm sure that some will throw stones at me now, but I found "Ric" premise more interesting that what we are hearing from Taylor so far. Yes, entire thing was executed horrifically, but I'd rather take well executed "Nightwing loses his memory and Owls try to brainwash him" story than another story about Barbara, Blockbuster and death of his parents.

So yeah, Taylor is likely to deliver above average quality of stuff that I don't find very exciting. Is it good or bad? Could be worse, but thats not making me optimistic.

----------


## Pohzee

> What Taylor is doing is definitely an improvement over what we had, but then I finally got around reading Let Them Live! issue and realised that this is what I want instead of whatever Taylor is doing.
> 
> I'm sure that some will throw stones at me now, but I found "Ric" premise more interesting that what we are hearing from Taylor so far. Yes, entire thing was executed horrifically, but I'd rather take well executed "Nightwing loses his memory and Owls try to brainwash him" story than another story about Barbara, Blockbuster and death of his parents.
> 
> So yeah, Taylor is likely to deliver above average quality of stuff that I don't find very exciting. Is it good or bad? Could be worse, but thats not making me optimistic.


Well put. It was an amazingly written and well drawn issue, but it didn't grab me like that one issue of Freefall did

----------


## WonderNight

> Well put. It was an amazingly written and well drawn issue, but it didn't grab me like that one issue of Freefall did


Yeah because nightwing should be EPIC! I don't get why dc want's "grounded" nightwing so much. 

Dc loves the "gods among man" but with nightwing it's "man among gods" for some reason. Maybe because they still view him as a support character?

----------


## dropkickjake

I definitely feel you. Grounded Nightwing is not my ideal scenario. His most "normal" life was a part of a traveling circus. That said, I'll take well executed dixon-esque Bludhaven over poorly executed/getting jerked around every three months Nightwing that we got under Didio. 

We'll see where Taylor takes us. The solicits don't inspire hope that we'll get what I would write or want written, but the quality of the issue is promising.

----------


## Godlike13

Problem is we got a really poorly executed "Nightwing loses his memory and Owls try to brainwash him" story. So they can’t do a “Ric” again after Ric bombs and was rejected so flagrantly. They have to return to form before they can shake things up.

 Lets be honest though, the Owls at this point is as old hat as Blockbuster, Babs, or the death of his parents. The Owls have been probably more overused with Dick in the last decade even.

----------


## Ascended

> I definitely feel you. Grounded Nightwing is not my ideal scenario. His most "normal" life was a part of a traveling circus. That said, I'll take well executed dixon-esque Bludhaven over poorly executed/getting jerked around every three months Nightwing that we got under Didio. 
> 
> We'll see where Taylor takes us. The solicits don't inspire hope that we'll get what I would write or want written, but the quality of the issue is promising.


That's where I'm at (obviously, since I spend several posts bitching about this). 

Like, it's a damn shame y'all aren't getting dropkick and my Nightwing; that's the dark neo-Silver Age, globe trotting, badass and sexy Nightwing every fan could get behind.  :Stick Out Tongue:  But I'll take a quality Dixon sequel over what we got the last several years, happily. 

Quality is what's most important for me; a great concept with bad execution is what brings us Ric Grayson. A standard concept with fantastic execution is what propels a book forward in a sustainable way, and makes those big status quo improvements more likely to catch on.

----------


## mib86

Personally i do not believe. to be or not to be grounded is a choice Nightwing has to make.
 Nightwing is a very flexible character, you can use him in any kind of story even more than Batman (who works best on dark and night).
You can have an urban mystery in the first arc and a crazy science fiction story in the other, not forgetting Dick's espionage background and all his old friends.
To begin with, though, it's not a bad decision to start over from Bludheaven: Dick needs a city other than Gothan to use as a base and his supporting characters, so the first thing to do is start rebuilding from here.
I also think it might be a good idea to try to recover something from the previous arcs to speed up the work, for example if I remember correctly the other Nightwings of the ric saga were people in the P.D. and in the fire department, Dick could keep those contacts and use them when he needs someone inside ...

----------


## Frontier

> Happy birthday Grayson
> 42E70E79-8EE6-402E-B3DD-56E2336D0DCF.jpg42E70E79-8EE6-402E-B3DD-56E2336D0DCF.jpg


I wonder how they'll handle Kori when/if she shows up.

I wouldn't be surprised if she starts out younger than Dick so it's not even relevant.

----------


## Lady Nightwing

There's a lot of buzz on twitter about Nightwing appearing in the Harley Quinn cartoon

----------


## Rac7d*

> There's a lot of buzz on twitter about Nightwing appearing in the Harley Quinn cartoon


That be pretty cool

----------


## Pohzee

Titans Academy kinda reminded me of the Future State issue a bit. It might not have to polish of Taylor's Nightwing, but it's totally overflowing with ideas. I hope with a full-time series rather than just two issues its able to carry through on them better than Future State.

Verrrrry curious about the Dick and Starfire dynamic presented here given Barbara's prominence in Nightwing.

----------


## sifighter

Yeah Titans Academy definitely focused on Nightwing quite a bit, from his new Red X history, to the Batpack who he I guess took in from an orphanage, to his relationship with Starfire, and even his birthday. Not saying other characters got it bad, just saying plenty of interesting stuff for Nightwing fans.

----------


## Frontier

> There's a lot of buzz on twitter about Nightwing appearing in the Harley Quinn cartoon


Damian's Robin and they mentioned Jason dying, so Dick is probably Nightwing at this point. They've also referred to the Titans.

I just hope they use him better than the _Batman and Harley Quinn_ movie did.

----------


## Lady Nightwing

You can vote to name Dicks wee puppy but only if you're from the States.

https://twitter.com/DCComics/status/...818138625?s=19

----------


## Drako

The options are Haley, Shadow, Blue & Hope. Should be Haley from the beginning.

----------


## Lady Nightwing

> Damian's Robin and they mentioned Jason dying, so Dick is probably Nightwing at this point. They've also referred to the Titans.
> 
> I just hope they use him better than the _Batman and Harley Quinn_ movie did.


I did kind of like the scene in the Batmobile, with the fast food and discussing which heroes to call, I got a bit of a laugh from that. I'm just hoping they don't go the himbo route.

----------


## Lady Nightwing

Haley would be my first choice but I'd be good with anything but Hope. That's really cheesy. I guess they gave you limited choices or she would end up being called Doggy McDogface but those options are _really_ limited

----------


## Avi

I like what I'm hearing about TTA in regards to Dick. If it weren't for the already announced crossover, I'd probably pick it up monthly.

Nightwing in the Harley series could be cool. I hope he gets a good design at the least.

I'd call the options bland tbh. Haley isn't even Haly. People suggested Zitka and Mary and so on from the start. Those would have been better, imo.

----------


## Rac7d*

> You can vote to name Dicks wee puppy but only if you're from the States.
> 
> https://twitter.com/DCComics/status/...818138625?s=19


Awww I like Haley but blue is a dog name for sure

----------


## WonderNight

> Damian's Robin and they mentioned Jason dying, so Dick is probably Nightwing at this point. They've also referred to the Titans.
> 
> I just hope they use him better than the _Batman and Harley Quinn_ movie did.


I like that movie so I'm good.

----------


## byrd156

> The options are Haley, Shadow, Blue & Hope. Should be Haley from the beginning.


Haley easily, though it should be Haly.

----------


## Restingvoice

Scott Snyder voted Ric

Haley's the best choice
She doesn't fit a Shadow
Blue will make either Blue's Clues joke or Jurassic World. So that's the second best.
Hope should be reserved for his baby daughter.




> Titans Academy kinda reminded me of the Future State issue a bit. It might not have to polish of Taylor's Nightwing, but it's totally overflowing with ideas. I hope with a full-time series rather than just two issues its able to carry through on them better than Future State.
> 
> Verrrrry curious about the Dick and Starfire dynamic presented here given Barbara's prominence in Nightwing.


Oh it's gonna be the usual. Both of them appearing as his partner at the same time means nothing's gonna go anywhere for both of them.

----------


## Grayson - The Dark Heir

See, TTA is way more my speed. Something new and interesting is actually happening, just hope it can stay interesting lol. The Nightwing book is definitely the more polished one as mentioned earlier, but my interest is all on TTA tbh.

My hope is, given the whole "infinite possibilities" thing going on with Infinite Frontier, that TTA and Nightwing are actually happening in different worlds. Nightwing being a safe book (for now anyways) is cool, it's what it needs to be, but it being so safe that it holds back TTA? That would suck. Guess we'll see how it goes.

----------


## Restingvoice

Wait. Hold on. I didn't know it's the Nightwing's birthday party in TTA today. What age and which timeline are we using? 
If it's New 52 he should be 25
If it's Post Crisis he should be 30
So? Which is it? Did they even mention his age? I'm gonna guess not.

----------


## marvelprince

> Wait. Hold on. I didn't know it's the Nightwing's birthday party in TTA today. What age and which timeline are we using? 
> If it's New 52 he should be 25
> If it's Post Crisis he should be 30
> So? Which is it? Did they even mention his age? I'm gonna guess not.


Split the diff and call him 27

----------


## Dzetoun

> Wait. Hold on. I didn't know it's the Nightwing's birthday party in TTA today. What age and which timeline are we using? 
> If it's New 52 he should be 25
> If it's Post Crisis he should be 30
> So? Which is it? Did they even mention his age? I'm gonna guess not.


LOL. One of the new students said that “Mr. Nightwing” is “turning...old.” Which means he is 81 (or might as well be in the mind of a teenager).

----------


## Grayson - The Dark Heir

> Wait. Hold on. I didn't know it's the Nightwing's birthday party in TTA today. What age and which timeline are we using? 
> If it's New 52 he should be 25
> If it's Post Crisis he should be 30
> So? Which is it? Did they even mention his age? I'm gonna guess not.


Currently listening to an interview with Tim Sheridan where he mentioned the characters don't have set ages. The only thing that matters is that the faculty are all adults because they need to be capable of being mentors apparently, lol. Can't say I disagree anyways.

Edit: Okay, wasn't expecting this but we hear about his approach to interacting with the Nightwing book, which is that it doesn't really interact at all. Not sure if that frees him up to do anything he wants with Nightwing, but at the very least we're probably not going to see any explanations for how Dick is both faculty and in Bludhaven doing Bludhaven things. Not sure how that plays into the Kory and Babs front either.

----------


## sifighter

> Currently listening to an interview with Tim Sheridan where he mentioned the characters don't have set ages. The only thing that matters is that the faculty are all adults because they need to be capable of being mentors apparently, lol. Can't say I disagree anyways.


Yeah fair enough, personally I was never much for the idea that somehow characters like Raven and Beast Boy were the same age as Wallace West or perhaps Tim Drake. Im just going to chalk it up to when the universe fixed itself from Death Metal and gave everyone continuity it properly aged up some characters.

Also if you dont mind me asking, which interview?

----------


## Restingvoice

> Currently listening to an interview with Tim Sheridan where he mentioned the characters don't have set ages. The only thing that matters is that the faculty are all adults because they need to be capable of being mentors apparently, lol. Can't say I disagree anyways.
> 
> Edit: Okay, wasn't expecting this but we hear about his approach to interacting with the Nightwing book, which is that it doesn't really interact at all. Not sure if that frees him up to do anything he wants with Nightwing, but at the very least we're probably not going to see any explanations for how Dick is both faculty and in Bludhaven doing Bludhaven things. Not sure how that plays into the Kory and Babs front either.


Ah so business as usual then. Dick never calls for Titans when he's in Bludhaven except for the one guest star (Walls)

Alright. Since I like everything canon I'm going with Dick 30, Gar 21, Miguel 19 (I'm averaging him at 16 in New 52 I don't remember if they ever actually say his age)

Billy... he's 10 when Tim's 12-13... good this makes things easier... +4-5 years to the end of Post... 14-15... the same throughout New 52... hey that fits... +3 Rebirth... Billy's 17-18

----------


## Grayson - The Dark Heir

> Yeah fair enough, personally I was never much for the idea that somehow characters like Raven and Beast Boy were the same age as Wallace West or perhaps Tim Drake. I’m just going to chalk it up to when the universe fixed itself from Death Metal and gave everyone continuity it properly aged up some characters.
> 
> Also if you don’t mind me asking, which interview?


https://twitter.com/ComicWatchHQ/sta...861716995?s=20

Here you go, he went deeper with stuff than I was expecting at points so I'm glad I checked this out when I did lol.

----------


## Avi

> https://twitter.com/ComicWatchHQ/sta...861716995?s=20
> 
> Here you go, he went deeper with stuff than I was expecting at points so I'm glad I checked this out when I did lol.


I like Sheridan more and more. Great that he got to do the birthday story as a comic even if not in the ttg series.  :Big Grin:  
And that "A Lonely Place of Dying" informs his approach to Dick makes me look forward to his take, especially in combination with TTA. He clearly sees Dick as a big brother figure.

----------


## Godlike13

TTA was fine. I’m still just struggling with the concept. Never been big on the idea of them as teachers. They just keep finding ways to make that gen feel older and older. And everyone was very goodie goodie teachers. I don’t know, not my favorite look.

----------


## Pohzee

It seems to clash with Gar's characterization to be a teacher figure (which could make it interesting) but its just kind of out of place for most of the rest of the Titans.

Except Dick. It really seems like a natural progression for the first superhero trainee to become a trainer and mentor.

----------


## Godlike13

I like Dick as a cool big brother mentor. The whole Mr. Nightwing though lack’s the personal touch that makes those relationships for me. Turns it formal and impersonal, and takes the cool factor out of it.

----------


## Frontier

> I like Dick as a cool big brother mentor. The whole Mr. Nightwing though lack’s the personal touch that makes those relationships for me. Turns it formal and impersonal, and takes the cool factor out of it.


I mean, I feel like that can still be there even if they call him "Mr. Nightwing." He's just *that* kind of teacher (you know the one  :Stick Out Tongue: ).

----------


## Citizen Pain

> The options are Haley, Shadow, Blue & Hope. Should be Haley from the beginning.


I cant believe Bludhound wasnt on the list

----------


## sifighter

> I like Dick as a cool big brother mentor. The whole Mr. Nightwing though lack’s the personal touch that makes those relationships for me. Turns it formal and impersonal, and takes the cool factor out of it.


I feel like he has two reasons for this, first he probably doesn’t want his students just randomly visiting his apartment in bludhaven especially the Bat pack who would no doubt bug him to meet Batman.

Second....look he’s not telling a bunch of teenagers that he wants to treat him with authority and respect as Teacher that his first name is Dick. No way does he want those kids having that ammo.

It’s a little like this

----------


## Restingvoice

Taylor opens the poll of Bitewing's civilian name on Twitter for non US readers. Same options.
https://twitter.com/TomTaylorMade/st...57908311801856

----------


## Digifiend

Haley and Blue are pretty much neck and neck on that one. Only 0.8% difference between them.

----------


## WonderNight

Someone on reddit said the name should be balls  :Wink:

----------


## Rac7d*

I hope we see his titans belt hanging on a rack in his apartment as a slight nod too the two stories sharing the same space

----------


## Restingvoice

Brun-do's originals are on sale in http://www.comiconart.com/artistgall...14&order=title 

Though the ones with the puppy are already sold out ^^


This one's currently On Hold

----------


## Drako

Nightwing on the next Batman: Black & White.



What you guys think of him implementing for real this underarm glide wings like in the cartoon?

----------


## Lady Nightwing

I love the glider wings. I also think a modified hang glider would work really well for him.

----------


## Drako

Nightwing #78, the first issue from new creative team @TomTaylorMade and @Bruno_Redondo_F, is heading back to press for a second printing in stores April 27!



https://twitter.com/thedcnation/stat...89036945485828

----------


## Drako

We already have the preview for 79:

https://www.gamesradar.com/nightwing...-look-preview/

----------


## Claude

You know, I liked Titans Academy - I really did. Felt like a lot packed in there, a nice compliment to the more decompressed Taylor first issue. More Dick in it - both as part of the lore and 'on panel' - than I was expecting.

If we're lucky, we could have two good series running together!

----------


## Avi

Nice! I kind of expected it would get a second printing. Gonna be interesting to see how much it actually sold.

Didn't expect a preview to come with it so soon. 




> Nightwing on the next Batman: Black & White.
> 
> 
> 
> What you guys think of him implementing for real this underarm glide wings like in the cartoon?


That's a cool idea. I just wonder if Campbell will incorporate it into the suit's design over all or if it will just appear out of nothing.

----------


## Rac7d*

> Nightwing #78, the first issue from new creative team @TomTaylorMade and @Bruno_Redondo_F, is heading back to press for a second printing in stores April 27!
> 
> 
> 
> https://twitter.com/thedcnation/stat...89036945485828


That’s good stuff

----------


## Restingvoice

Would it hurt someone not to use the firing origin?




> Nightwing #78, the first issue from new creative team @TomTaylorMade and @Bruno_Redondo_F, is heading back to press for a second printing in stores April 27!
> 
> 
> 
> https://twitter.com/thedcnation/stat...89036945485828


Oh and someone on Twitter pointed out that I didn't see earlier, those buildings make a Nightwing logo in the sky

----------


## Badou

Ugh, they used the firing origin again? I hate that Nightwing Year One makes writers keep using it when the book isn't that good. It just sucks they always default to it.

----------


## Murrocko

> Nightwing on the next Batman: Black & White.
> 
> 
> 
> What you guys think of him implementing for real this underarm glide wings like in the cartoon?


Love the underarm wings from TAS. My idle costume would utilize that long with a utility belt.

----------


## Frontier

> We already have the preview for 79:
> 
> https://www.gamesradar.com/nightwing...-look-preview/


Emotionally I have to wonder about the implications of Dick seguing from his parents to Bruce as his father. 

I'm surprised they used the red Nightwing suit instead of the Grayson suit, but I guess they wanted to keep the Nightwing theme going. 

So...is Babs going to suit as Batgirl to grab a bite to eat or are they going to go as civilians?

----------


## Digifiend

> Ugh, they used the firing origin again? I hate that Nightwing Year One makes writers keep using it when the book isn't that good. It just sucks they always default to it.


Yeah, he handed Robin to Jason and became Nightwing when he was 19, he wasn't fired at 18. I don't understand how a later retcon can still be canon when they've said everything happened - which means whatever the 2005 origin was retconning has been unretconned, which should've invalidated it.

The same page has another screw-up - it shows a New Teen Titans roster that never existed (Speedy wasn't on that team and Kid Flash left when Dick was still Robin).

----------


## Godlike13

The firing is more dramatic.

----------


## OBrianTallent

> Nightwing #78, the first issue from new creative team @TomTaylorMade and @Bruno_Redondo_F, is heading back to press for a second printing in stores April 27!
> 
> 
> 
> https://twitter.com/thedcnation/stat...89036945485828


I'm going to have to get a second printing now too...that cover is incredible!

----------


## Restingvoice

> Emotionally I have to wonder about the implications of Dick seguing from his parents to Bruce as his father. 
> 
> I'm surprised they used the red Nightwing suit instead of the Grayson suit, but I guess they wanted to keep the Nightwing theme going. 
> 
> So...is Babs going to suit as Batgirl to grab a bite to eat or are they going to go as civilians?


Guessing civilian since he only wore the costume because he thought there's an intruder




> Yeah, he handed Robin to Jason and became Nightwing when he was 19, he wasn't fired at 18. I don't understand how a later retcon can still be canon when they've said everything happened - which means whatever the 2005 origin was retconning has been unretconned, which should've invalidated it.
> 
> The same page has another screw-up - it shows a New Teen Titans roster that never existed (Speedy wasn't on that team and Kid Flash left when Dick was still Robin).


Not everything happened. They remember everything that happened in flashes, but they're still gonna have to pick one that actually happened. 

That said this is not a completely Nightwing Year One as classic Discowing is there, and the Titans roster, ever since Ric ended, they've been mixing the Fab Five with NTT in Nightwing and in Death Metal, give or take one member, usually Garth or Vic. 



Since we're also mixing Bludhaven old and new, old Blockbuster, new Bludhaven, old Clancy's apartment, no Clancy, Bruce money instead of his money, firing origin but classic Discowing... then this team, the Fab Five / NTT combo is the new reality.

----------


## Drako

> Yeah, he handed Robin to Jason and became Nightwing when he was 19, he wasn't fired at 18. I don't understand how a later retcon can still be canon when they've said everything happened - which means whatever the 2005 origin was retconning has been unretconned, which should've invalidated it.
> 
> The same page has another screw-up - it shows a New Teen Titans roster that never existed (Speedy wasn't on that team and Kid Flash left when Dick was still Robin).


That everything happened is just a motto, it's not to be taken literally. The villains launched Chemo in Bludhaven during Infinity Crisis and the city became Chernobyl 2.0. But Nightwing is living there right now, so that certainly didn't happen in current continuity.. 

The painel with titans is just art to represent his friends.

----------


## Rac7d*

I hope not to many previews are given this time around

----------


## Badou

> Yeah, he handed Robin to Jason and became Nightwing when he was 19, he wasn't fired at 18. I don't understand how a later retcon can still be canon when they've said everything happened - which means whatever the 2005 origin was retconning has been unretconned, which should've invalidated it.
> 
> The same page has another screw-up - it shows a New Teen Titans roster that never existed (Speedy wasn't on that team and Kid Flash left when Dick was still Robin).


Yeah, it's all a gigantic mess, but I don't think DC knows how it is supposed to fit together in some kind of continuity. I think we are at the point where writers are just picking and choosing images that they feel best represent whatever moment they are trying to convey even if they don't really make sense. So they have the 80s NTT team there plus Roy because that is the most well known version of the team, and they add Roy because he is a Titan even if it doesn't fit in that era of stories. Then they have Dick being fired, even thought they are using the NTT era team, because Nightwing Year One is probably looked at as being "important" because of the history of the Year One titles being important, so they default to Dick getting fired as Nightwing's origin. Then you have Dick running around in his red New 52 Nightwing suit probably because the Snyder New 52 Batman era is too important to ignore given how successful it was. Then you also have Dick in his golden age Robin costume even though you are still using the New 52 as canon. The stories are all over the place.

But at the end of the day I think Bruce firing Dick is a shit story. It completely takes away Dick's agency of moving on and becoming his own hero, and instead has Bruce be the one to control Dick's direction. I'll never understand why anyone likes it. All it does is devalue Dick's growth and ruins Nightwing's origin.

----------


## Restingvoice

So yeah brand new timeline
- The Flying Grayson died
- Dick became Robin as a preteen
- Met Babs for the first time first year high school presumably
- Formed The Teen Titans
- Fired by Bruce at age 18
- TT became NTT
- Became Red X 
- Became Discowing 
- Became Batman
- Became Red Nightwing 
- Huntress is still dark skin so I'm counting that Grayson is included in the history
- Back in Blue
- Met and defeated Raptor
- Shot and lost his memory
- Defeated William Cobb and landed him in Arkham Asylum
- Regained his memory in Joker War
- Returned to Bludhaven with the apartment he bought years ago with Wayne money
- Became a Titans Academy teacher
- Has his 24th or 30th birthday party
- Shrike in Suicide Squad freed Cobb from Arkham
- Lady Vic, Raptor, and Nite-Wing recruited to Lazarus Tournament

That's all we know so far but I can't tell exactly when he moved to Bludhaven the first time.

----------


## Hypo

Love this from the preview for #79:

----------


## Vordan

Guys you can’t be too anal about ages, you know how time works in superhero ongoings. Dick got shot in the head and lived as Ric for two years our time but it might have just been a month in-universe. The timeline doesn’t work, never has, never will, but it doesn’t matter because superheroes don’t age in any kind of realistic manner anyway.

Getting fired is more dramatic so that’s why they keep going back to it. Easy way to add some drama if needed.

----------


## Badou

It's an awful Nightwing origin though. It just undercuts Dick's character and an origin story is never supposed to do that. The big problem is that there just isn't a good Nightwing origin story overall. You have the Judas Contract original story, but that isn't really a Nightwing story and is kind of an awkward story overall for Dick as he isn't really the center of it. It's weird. So they created this Nightwing Year One story where Bruce fires him from Robin and they tried to give it more of a definitive origin full of every bad cliché imaginable. Then years later writers keep going back to Nightwing Year One as they don't really have any other options. So it becomes further and further entrenched in Dick's history for all the wrong reasons. Dick is the one that fucking created Robin not Bruce. So Bruce shouldn't control it over Dick and it should be Dick's own choice to move on over Bruce forcing that move on him.

----------


## CPSparkles

> Love this from the preview for #79:


I love this.

----------


## Drako

Nightwing will appear in Wonder Girl. Don't know if it's just a cameo.



Edit: Looks like it's just a reaction shot.

----------


## Pohzee

I've thought this since King's run, but Jones' Dick is incredible. Wish she had stayed on that book longer.

----------


## Restingvoice

> Love this from the preview for #79:


So editor Jess Chen said about this page

If you were *ENHANCE* wondering if @Bruno_Redondo_F  @fxstudiocolor  used each respective era's CMYK dot print patterns on EACH era that was depicted on this spread--HELLYEAH, YOU BET YOUR SWEET ASS THEY DID. AND YOU SHOULD EXPECT NOTHING LESS FROM THIS CREATIVE TEAM.

Yes... I think...

Okay yeah. The firing isn't from Nightwing Year One but from Batman #408. Jason's Post Crisis origin in 87. 

I thought those dots look weirdly 80s for Nightwing Year One.

or... y'know... it's just the 80s in general since he became Nightwing in 84

----------


## Avi

I'm "eh" on the origin. I didn't expect them to change it, but it would have been a good opportunity.




> I've thought this since King's run, but Jones' Dick is incredible. Wish she had stayed on that book longer.


She's drawn Dick before? Was that the Selina Vs Talia issue?

I didn't think he'd appear as part of the who is who. Glad he is.

----------


## Drako

> I'm "eh" on the origin. I didn't expect them to change it, but it would have been a good opportunity.
> 
> 
> 
> She's drawn Dick before? Was that the Selina Vs Talia issue?
> 
> I didn't think he'd appear as part of the who is who. Glad he is.

----------


## Claude

Can't see if it's been mentioned, by the way, but the Elseworlds  in Yang's "Batman and Superman" show the characters in very classic set ups - so Clark is competing with Lois for stories and working with Jimmy, and Bruce is doing the full Dynamic Duo thing with Dick. Fun first issue.

----------


## Frontier

> Nightwing will appear in Wonder Girl. Don't know if it's just a cameo.
> 
> 
> 
> Edit: Looks like it's just a reaction shot.


Oh hey, Cassie too  :Smile: .

----------


## Digifiend

> Nightwing will appear in Wonder Girl. Don't know if it's just a cameo.
> 
> 
> 
> Edit: Looks like it's just a reaction shot.


And the other half of that image is Cassie! So it looks like Wonder Girl will be reacting to a new Wonder Girl showing up. That should be interesting!

----------


## Ascended

> Can't see if it's been mentioned, by the way, but the Elseworlds  in Yang's "Batman and Superman" show the characters in very classic set ups - so Clark is competing with Lois for stories and working with Jimmy, and Bruce is doing the full Dynamic Duo thing with Dick. Fun first issue.


Just read that issue this past weekend. 

Damned fine issue, especially for fans of the old 40s era serials and the Golden Age in general. And Yang's voice for this young Dick Grayson is pretty damn perfect; he's capable and confident, still acts like a kid, and is just so damn fun I found myself smiling almost every time he had a line of dialogue. 

Yang isn't someone I ever considered for Nightwing, but after that B/S issue, I sure as hell wouldn't argue with him taking a shot at the main canon, adult Grayson.

----------


## AmiMizuno

How do you guys feel that in almost ever comic Dick's disco suit is cannon

----------


## Lady Nightwing

> How do you guys feel that in almost ever comic Dick's disco suit is cannon


Overjoyed. I love the Discowing suit (and the OG Robin costume).

----------


## Shadowcat

> How do you guys feel that in almost ever comic Dick's disco suit is cannon


It’s a busy George Pérez original, and should always be canon.

----------


## Restingvoice

> How do you guys feel that in almost ever comic Dick's disco suit is cannon


I never like the color or design but I always like incorporating history so they kind of balance out to neutrality

----------


## Jay11

> How do you guys feel that in almost ever comic Dick's disco suit is cannon


Elated. I love the look, it has the same silhouette as an acrobat outfit ( like fellow former circus performer, Deadman). In that respect, it's timeless and a nice nod to his acrobat background. Also, acknowledging a Perez design is always a good thing.

----------


## Avi

> How do you guys feel that in almost ever comic Dick's disco suit is cannon


It's great. I've always liked the suit. There are of course some artists that make it look a lot better than others, but, yeah, I like it.

On the topic of Dick's original Nightwing suit, do you all think we'll ever get a celebration of Nightwing's Anniversary? Does the identity warrant one?

----------


## K. Jones

Same - I love DiscoWing as part of his history the same way I love Electric Superman or All-Black Batman and even accept and am okay with Pirate-Hook Aquaman. All these guys have phases and most of them are worthy of nostalgia (except maybe the Wonder Woman costume that kind of looked like a stereotypical prostitute, not implying or shaming prostitutes, just don't think it was a particularly great look for Wonder Woman in function, form, design, or tonally.)

I even love the notion that his first grab at his new identity post-Robin wasn't particularly very refined. Bird-motif was a little nonexistent, went a little too deep into Circus look - possible his fashion photographer and super-model best friend and girlfriend were influencing him with these really extreme design choices.

----------


## Murrocko

> How do you guys feel that in almost ever comic Dick's disco suit is cannon


Not a huge fan of it, super goofy looking like the original Robin costume and the green panties... But like the Robin costume, it's part of his history and I can respect it being canon.

----------


## Restingvoice

> It's great. I've always liked the suit. There are of course some artists that make it look a lot better than others, but, yeah, I like it.
> 
> On the topic of Dick's original Nightwing suit, do you all think we'll ever get a celebration of Nightwing's Anniversary? Does the identity warrant one?


In what supposed to be the 30th anniversary he was strapped to Murder Machine, killed, retired, then became a secret agent, but the hater's gone now, and the 40th anniversary is still 3 years away so we'll see

----------


## Digifiend

> Same - I love DiscoWing as part of his history the same way I love Electric Superman or All-Black Batman and even accept and am okay with Pirate-Hook Aquaman. All these guys have phases and most of them are worthy of nostalgia (except maybe the Wonder Woman costume that kind of looked like a stereotypical prostitute, not implying or shaming prostitutes, just don't think it was a particularly great look for Wonder Woman in function, form, design, or tonally.)
> 
> I even love the notion that his first grab at his new identity post-Robin wasn't particularly very refined. Bird-motif was a little nonexistent, went a little too deep into Circus look - possible his fashion photographer and super-model best friend and girlfriend were influencing him with these really extreme design choices.


I don't think Donna and Kori had anything to do with the first Nightwing suit? Kori did design the second one though.

----------


## Drako



----------


## Avi

Not surprised that Haley won. It was the only non-generic name. What I don't like is that even more people will write Haly's wrong now...




> In what supposed to be the 30th anniversary he was strapped to Murder Machine, killed, retired, then became a secret agent, but the hater's gone now, and the 40th anniversary is still 3 years away so we'll see


Touché. At least the secret agent bit wasn't bad. For most.  :Stick Out Tongue: 




> I don't think Donna and Kori had anything to do with the first Nightwing suit? Kori did design the second one though.


Didn't Alfred make the first suit out of John's old Flying Grayson costume? Considering Taylor is focusing on Alfred's and Dick's relationship that would be a cool thing to bring back. But I also like the idea that Dick's over-the-top-ness was encouraged by Donna and Kory.

----------


## Badou

Also for the Nightwing #250 milestone issue he was running around as Ric, lol. Then for the upcoming Detective Comics #1038 issue which marks the 1000th anniversary issue for Dick's first appearance he isn't even in the story. Anniversary stuff hasn't been great for him so far. 

The next milestone/anniversary would be Nightwing issue #300 which should be soon I think, but odds are DC isn't going to do anything for it.

----------


## Rac7d*

> I don't think Donna and Kori had anything to do with the first Nightwing suit? Kori did design the second one though.


Wasnt that the faux kori

----------


## Digifiend

> Also for the Nightwing #250 milestone issue he was running around as Ric, lol. Then for the upcoming Detective Comics #1038 issue which marks the 1000th anniversary issue for Dick's first appearance he isn't even in the story. Anniversary stuff hasn't been great for him so far. 
> 
> The next milestone/anniversary would be Nightwing issue #300 which should be soon I think, but odds are DC isn't going to do anything for it.


4 + 153 + 30 + 78 = 265 issues of Nightwing. If you count Grayson you can add another 20 to that. Anniversary is either one year away or three depending on if you include Grayson, assuming Nightwing ships 12 issues a year.

----------


## Restingvoice

The pup has a name.

----------


## Rac7d*

> The pup has a name.


just so cute

----------


## Claude

> Just read that issue this past weekend. 
> 
> Damned fine issue, especially for fans of the old 40s era serials and the Golden Age in general. And Yang's voice for this young Dick Grayson is pretty damn perfect; he's capable and confident, still acts like a kid, and is just so damn fun I found myself smiling almost every time he had a line of dialogue. 
> 
> Yang isn't someone I ever considered for Nightwing, but after that B/S issue, I sure as hell wouldn't argue with him taking a shot at the main canon, adult Grayson.


With that in mind...
https://www.comicsbeat.com/interview...mpression=true


"Between Batman and Robin  I love Batman as a character, I think every character does  but I feel this tighter affinity for Robin. I like Robin a little bit more."

----------


## Avi

> Also for the Nightwing #250 milestone issue he was running around as Ric, lol. Then for the upcoming Detective Comics #1038 issue which marks the 1000th anniversary issue for Dick's first appearance he isn't even in the story. Anniversary stuff hasn't been great for him so far. 
> 
> The next milestone/anniversary would be Nightwing issue #300 which should be soon I think, but odds are DC isn't going to do anything for it.


I don't think they are looking that closely at Dick's overall Issues. But they seem to have something planned for #100 at least. That'll probably be the soonest celebration of anything and will fall into '23. Without Grayson that would leave us at Issue #287.

----------


## dropkickjake

> What I don't like is that even more people will write Haly's wrong now...


Seriously.

Glad Haley won, but it should have been "Haly."

----------


## Drako

> Not surprised that Haley won. It was the only non-generic name. What I don't like is that even more people will write Haly's wrong now...


Well, people still write Damien instead of Damian and Connor instead of Conner (Superboy). At least the Haly name doesn't come up in discussions so often.

----------


## Grayson - The Dark Heir

Haly's always referred to a man, not sure if the name can be used for anyone, but Haley is definitely used for women so it fits the little pupper given we know it's female.

----------


## Drako

Sneak peek from a future issue of Nightwing.



https://twitter.com/TomTaylorMade/st...49035922731011

----------


## Digifiend

> Haly's always referred to a man,


How is it gender specific? Haly is a surname, not a first name.

----------


## Restingvoice

> Sneak peek from a future issue of Nightwing.
> 
> 
> 
> https://twitter.com/TomTaylorMade/st...49035922731011


Deathstroke and... Brutale?



No. Brutale is in Lazarus Tournament. Is this island a dumping ground for Nightwing villains or something? That's 7 already, and 2 more are in Suicide Squad.

----------


## Rac7d*

> Deathstroke and... Brutale?
> 
> 
> 
> No. Brutale is in Lazarus Tournament. Is this island a dumping ground for Nightwing villains or something? That's 7 already, and 2 more are in Suicide Squad.


Danm that’s a lot nightwing villains 
Even the on offs Double Dare, it makes me excited tho as Nightwing fan

----------


## K. Jones

> Wasn’t that the faux kori


Mirage - Dick's first rapist, basically. The 'glamouring' sex move is a villains move, so the Team Titans end up fairly irredeemable. Then again, someone in the DCU needs to be teaching an "Ethics For Time Traveling and Multiverses" course.

----------


## Avi

> Deathstroke and... Brutale?
> 
> 
> 
> No. Brutale is in Lazarus Tournament. Is this island a dumping ground for Nightwing villains or something? That's 7 already, and 2 more are in Suicide Squad.


Oh wow... That are a lot more than I expected. Hope it's more a dumping ground rather than a slaughter ground (though I wouldn't mind some of them dying) and that Dick's connections to them will be revealed. 

Good to see that Raptor is alive and kicking. Makes me hopeful that he'll return in Nightwing eventually.  :Smile:

----------


## Rac7d*

> Mirage - Dick's first rapist, basically. The 'glamouring' sex move is a villains move, so the Team Titans end up fairly irredeemable. Then again, someone in the DCU needs to be teaching an "Ethics For Time Traveling and Multiverses" course.


The second if we’re counting that one woman who used him at 17

----------


## Rac7d*

We are expecting Dick in Titans, Young Justice and Harley Quinn this year right ?

----------


## Frontier

> We are expecting Dick in Titans, Young Justice and Harley Quinn this year right ?


Media-wise? Yeah.

I guess there's also DCSHG but I'd rather pretend that version doesn't exist  :Stick Out Tongue: .

----------


## Rac7d*

> Media-wise? Yeah.
> 
> I guess there's also DCSHG but I'd rather pretend that version doesn't exist .


Oh the brat version of him lol

----------


## Ascended

Is it confirmed that Dick is going to be in Harley, or still just a rumor? 

Because I really need to see that.

----------


## Frontier

> Is it confirmed that Dick is going to be in Harley, or still just a rumor? 
> 
> Because I really need to see that.


I think a website or one of the writers hinted he might show up. 

I just hope they handle their relationship better than the animated movie did.

----------


## Rac7d*

> I think a website or one of the writers hinted he might show up. 
> 
> I just hope they handle their relationship better than the animated movie did.


Well Harley and Ivy just started 
If anything I see potential for babs and dick

----------


## Frontier

> Well Harley and Ivy just started 
> If anything I see potential for babs and dick


I doubt it. Dick is probably going to be an established veteran hero while this Batgirl is a young college girl.

----------


## Rac7d*

> I doubt it. Dick is probably going to be an established veteran hero while this Batgirl is a young college girl.


When you start out as Robin at age 8-13 then yes being a hero at 19-20 (year 1 Nightwing) would make him a veteran.

----------


## Frontier

> When you start out as Robin at age 8-13 then yes being a hero at 19-20 (year 1 Nightwing) would make him a veteran.


I guess it depends on how they handle the timeline and ages.

----------


## AmiMizuno

> The second if we’re counting that one woman who used him at 17


All together he has 3 rapists. Mirage, this woman and Catalina. A lot want to see Catalina be a villain.




> Well Harley and Ivy just started 
> If anything I see potential for babs and dick


I don't with Dc they always go back and forth.  If they do it who is to say it will last. Babs is always the one uncomfortable in the relationship. But the writer of Nightwing does like his and Babs relationship it's just a I don't thinking will along it to stay official.

----------


## Ascended

> I think a website or one of the writers hinted he might show up.


Then I shall believe it when I see it.

----------


## AmiMizuno

So far it seems Dick will be shown up in a lot of comics outside his fam. I want more of this. Him not just in Batfam comics. Every now and then things like Wonder Woman comic or maybe Superman.

----------


## bearman

I would like to see him involved with Diana. As an immortal, surely she has a broader view of human life spans... and I would also like to see Bruce’s reaction to that idea.

----------


## Frontier

> I would like to see him involved with Diana. As an immortal, surely she has a broader view of human life spans... and I would also like to see Bruce’s reaction to that idea.


That would just be weird.

I mean, I don't want her paired with Batman, but still weird.

----------


## Godlike13

I don’t want to see him hooking up with his BFF’s sister, anymore then I want to see his BFF hook up with any of his brothers.

----------


## bearman

That’s valid. I forgot the Donna connection. I withdraw the suggestion!

----------


## AmiMizuno

Hey guys any change we ever get a Nightwing animated movie or are there not enough arcs on his own? I guess just stick with NTT?

----------


## Frontier

> Hey guys any change we ever get a Nightwing animated movie or are there not enough arcs on his own? I guess just stick with NTT?


I don't think it's likely, but I wouldn't rule it out.

----------


## Ascended

Yeah, I dunno if a solo animated outing is in Dick's future. 

The new people at DC/WB/AT&T seem to see more value in Nightwing than the last regime did, but I get the impression they still see Dick as someone's who's most useful as part of a ensemble, where he can help carry a larger selection of IP's and characters.

Dick's solo has better talent that it's seen in years, and Snyder's mini is probably gonna happen sooner or later, but the larger media stuff is all team projects. I won't say Dick *definitely* won't get a solo project in larger media but I think we'll see a new Titans or Bat family thing first.

----------


## Rac7d*

> Yeah, I dunno if a solo animated outing is in Dick's future. 
> 
> The new people at DC/WB/AT&T seem to see more value in Nightwing than the last regime did, but I get the impression they still see Dick as someone's who's most useful as part of a ensemble, where he can help carry a larger selection of IP's and characters.
> 
> Dick's solo has better talent that it's seen in years, and Snyder's mini is probably gonna happen sooner or later, but the larger media stuff is all team projects. I won't say Dick *definitely* won't get a solo project in larger media but I think we'll see a new Titans or Bat family thing first.


The only saga I see worth animating is the battle for the cowl in a 2 part fashion.
His Dixon days
His Rebirth story 
All seem like a series to be done in live action like daredevil 

Grayson could make a nice live action film

----------


## WonderNight

> That’s valid. I forgot the Donna connection. I withdraw the suggestion!


Screw Donna she's irrelevant anyway. Give me Dick and Diana.

----------


## Avi

> Screw Donna she's irrelevant anyway. Give me Dick and Diana.


Ouch. Is it wrong, though? Probably not. Sad as that is.

Honestly, I would love a Wonder Woman & Nightwing team-up. Without romance.

----------


## Vordan

> Ouch. Is it wrong, though? Probably not. Sad as that is.
> 
> Honestly, I would love a Wonder Woman & Nightwing team-up. Without romance.


They both had stints as secret agents, that’s definitely something that could be explored.

----------


## MatthewFieldhouse

"Bombshell" coming - https://twitter.com/TomTaylorMade/st...902860805?s=20

----------


## Lady Nightwing

I wonder what it is? I'm pretty hopeful about this new run, the whole team on it are always so enthusiastic about it on twitter, they seem really passionate. Hope they don't run into any editorial interference. 

Remember when Dick bought Amusement Mile in Kyle Higgins run? I'm always disappointed DC never let that play out properly. I thought it was perfect.

----------


## Rakiduam

Dick can't die again, so they are getting married

----------


## Avi

> They both had stints as secret agents, that’s definitely something that could be explored.


Absolutely. And Dick always works well with people that can fly.




> "Bombshell" coming - https://twitter.com/TomTaylorMade/st...902860805?s=20


Hmmm... Alfred and Blockbuster are related? And he wants some of that fortune?  :Stick Out Tongue: 

Honestly, I wish this would mean Melinda is Sonia after all. I can dream.

----------


## Badou

Probably something like Blockbuster being responsible for Dick's parent's deaths, or Tony Zucco is back again, haha.

----------


## Rac7d*

> Dick can't die again, so they are getting married


A baby? Mabey

----------


## Restingvoice

> Probably something like Blockbuster being responsible for Dick's parent's deaths, or Tony Zucco is back again, haha.


Zucco was talking to his lawyer last time wasn't it and he hates that his family left him, it's implied he'll spyral back into Zucco instead of his new fake name, so that one is a possibility

----------


## Lucas 35

What do you think about Seeley?

----------


## Avi

> Zucco was talking to his lawyer last time wasn't it and he hates that his family left him, it's implied he'll spyral back into Zucco instead of his new fake name, so that one is a possibility


Yeah, he even got a costume at the end. Looked very death-like.




> A baby? Mabey


But Dick is the mom 'cause those hips don't lie:

----------


## Drako

> What do you think about Seeley?


I think he is great.
I would read this, 100%.

----------


## Frontier

I have more confidence in Seeley writing the Robins together than I would most, so there's that.

----------


## Lady Nightwing

I really like Tim Seeleys writing. I'm hoping Robins wins

----------


## Badou

I'm not interest in a Robins series, but I'd love to see Seeley get more high profile work like Robins. So I hope he wins.

----------


## Claude

> I really like Tim Seeleys writing. I'm hoping Robins wins


Yeah, I like Seeley a lot and he's a legit fan of all four characters (I think? I can't remember him saying much about Tim, but he's a big 90s guy anhsys...) - and he's sounded a little disappointed in how his Nightwing run turned out in the last couple of years, so I'm hoping he wins and gets to leave it in a better place.

Also, I'd buy an Omnibus of his Nightwing run, that prelude to the wedding with Hush, and this.

I'll weep for the loss of that Blue Beetle mini, though. Hope it finds its way into stands somehow.

----------


## Rac7d*

> Yeah, he even got a costume at the end. Looked very death-like.
> 
> 
> 
> But Dick is the mom 'cause those hips don't lie:



Omg I love how different artist can be
The twink just jumped out of him

----------


## Rac7d*

> I think he is great.
> I would read this, 100%.


Go vote on Instagram 
8AF7E1DE-D8AD-45C5-BA94-9BB061CECA27.jpg

----------


## AmiMizuno

> Dick can't die again, so they are getting married


I don't know with the Bat editors I can't see them allowing that so soon. To be honest even if it's about Dick and Babs should they really rush it. I really would like it that Dick gets a chance  to rest after the whole Ric and Bea. Just a little break.


We got some Bitewing and Nightwing 

EyYeJsIXMAMkMWW.jpg

----------


## Restingvoice

> What do you think about Seeley?


He's pretty much the only one who's enthusiastic to try and add something new to Nightwing, he's written these five before, so he got my vote 




> But Dick is the mom 'cause those hips don't lie:


This made me laugh the first time. He got child bearing hip that accommodate dat ass

----------


## AmiMizuno

I'm curious. If we do get more of him in animated movies what Titans or Batfam arcs would they go for.? My only issue is how nefted he is in Batfam and Titans. He is one of the best friends

----------


## WonderNight

> I'm curious. If we do get more of him in animated movies what Titans or Batfam arcs would they go for.? My only issue is how nefted he is in Batfam and Titans. He is one of the best friends


What dick needs next is more standalone content as a solo hero to go to that next level.

----------


## WonderNight

> They both had stints as secret agents, thats definitely something that could be explored.


Wonder Woman/Nightwing worlds finest  :Embarrassment:

----------


## Rac7d*

> What dick needs next is more standalone content as a solo hero to go to that next level.


That’s why I think battle for the cowl is good
Idea for an animated movie. He doesn’t become Batman untill the end. So he is Nightwing though out 80% of it in Gotham surrounded by A list villains. I can see Warner be sold on the idea becuase it will sell. It will also give Dick the big solo mainstream moment he needs

----------


## HsssH

I think that Seeley's Nightwing run really collapsed due to being forced to bring back Bludhaven. In the end he practically destroyed everything that he created as well. So I hope that Robins win and this will redeem him, at least in my eyes.

----------


## SiegePerilous02

> I think that Seeley's Nightwing run really collapsed due to being forced to bring back Bludhaven. In the end he practically destroyed everything that he created as well. So I hope that Robins win and this will redeem him, at least in my eyes.


Yeah you could really tell his heart wasn't in the Bludhaven stuff. The first and third arcs were the best, we needed way more of that stuff.

A good example of enforced 90s/2000s nostalgia capable of being just as potentially stifling as any Bronze age nostalgia.

----------


## HsssH

> Yeah you could really tell his heart wasn't in the Bludhaven stuff. The first and third arcs were the best, we needed way more of that stuff.


Oh yeah, third arc was solid, completely forgot about it when I listed my favourite stuff in that DC Rebirth thread.

----------


## Claude

> Oh yeah, third arc was solid, completely forgot about it when I listed my favourite stuff in that DC Rebirth thread.


Was the third arc the Dr Hurt one, with Damian and Pyg? I liked that at the time, but it's frustrating how it seems to have been compromised to fit into Metal.

----------


## Frontier

I liked what Seeley was initially doing with Bludhaven with Shawn, Svoboda, a more street-level story channeled through Seeley's writing style...etc. 

But that's just me.

----------


## HsssH

> Was the third arc the Dr Hurt one, with Damian and Pyg? I liked that at the time, but it's frustrating how it seems to have been compromised to fit into Metal.


Yes, it does feel compromised a bit and is weaker than first arc, but it is still probably second best arc that we got in this volume.

----------


## Rac7d*

> I liked what Seeley was initially doing with Bludhaven with Shawn, Svoboda, a more street-level story channeled through Seeley's writing style...etc. 
> 
> But that's just me.


It was a lot of fun,  Shawn was one of his more memorable love intrested and the arcs were fun

----------


## Drako

> It was a lot of fun,  Shawn was one of his more memorable love intrested and the arcs were fun


Shawn was cool and all, but i wouldn't say she is memorable.

What was memorable was the melt down some people had when she thought she was pregnant. LOL Funny days.

Better than Batman, Nightwing must die and Raptor's Revenge was Seeley best work on Nightwing. 

If i had to rank this book by arcs before the Ric stuff it would be like this:

1 - Better than Batman
2 - Raptor's Revenge
3 - Nightwing must die
4 - The Untouchable
5 - Blockbuster
6 - Back to Bludhaven
7 - The Bleeding Edge

The Bleeding Edge didn't even had a proper ending (which was a shame tho) so it get the last spot.

----------


## Avi

> Shawn was cool and all, but i wouldn't say she is memorable.
> 
> What was memorable was the melt down some people had when she thought she was pregnant. LOL Funny days.
> 
> Better than Batman, Nightwing must die and Raptor's Revenge was Seeley best work on Nightwing. 
> 
> If i had to rank this book by arcs before the Ric stuff it would be like this:
> 
> 1 - Better than Batman
> ...


That's how I feel about those arcs too. The Untouchable would be higher for me if it had gotten more consistent art. Do the last two Issues of Percy's run count as part of The Bleeding Edge?





> Yeah you could really tell his heart wasn't in the Bludhaven stuff. The first and third arcs were the best, we needed way more of that stuff.
> 
> *A good example of enforced 90s/2000s nostalgia capable of being just as potentially stifling as any Bronze age nostalgia.*


This. 





> I'm curious. If we do get more of him in animated movies what Titans or Batfam arcs would they go for.? My only issue is how nefted he is in Batfam and Titans. He is one of the best friends


I would love an adapted Nightwing or Grayson arc. There really are enough to choose from. Better than Batman would be my first choice. It ties into his origin without being redundant. Thinking about it, it kind of mirrors how the Nightwing mini led into the first ongoing. Both arcs have ties to his origin and don't need Blüdhaven.  

As for the seemingly new animated verse, I hope we get Dark Victory next, where Dick is introduced. Robin: Year One could easily spin out of that. Then one or two Titans, guest appearance in another Batman, in a highly likely Batgirl Year One, and in JL or Superman to connect him to Supes, then Nightwing.

----------


## Rac7d*

> That's how I feel about those arcs too. The Untouchable would be higher for me if it had gotten more consistent art. Do the last two Issues of Percy's run count as part of The Bleeding Edge?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This. 
> 
> 
> ...


Again we come to the issue of the spy world being undeveloped in DC. They don’t have a SHIELD or SWORD 
Spyral must high profile member is Huntress and she left it to be a vigilantee in Gotham as soon as they became irrelevant. DC as a whole has to build some kind of underground division for the spy angle to work.

----------


## Drako

> That's how I feel about those arcs too. The Untouchable would be higher for me if it had gotten more consistent art. *Do the last two Issues of Percy's run count as part of The Bleeding Edge?*


Yeah, he went to that weird race against Flamingo and Silencer in issue #48 and #49 to find clues about the "Dark Web". He found some stuff, but it was cut short cause in the very next issue he was Ric.

----------


## Digifiend

> Yeah, he went to that weird race against Flamingo and Silencer in issue #48 and #49 to find clues about the "Dark Web". He found some stuff, but it was cut short cause in the very next issue he was Ric.


They should've had Batgirl finish off that story. Babs would've known what Dick had been investigating, as they were in regular contact.

----------


## Primal Slayer

I'm always surprised when I'm reminded that Dick has spent most of his live action adaptations on tv and only been in 2 major Batman films. 
https://64.media.tumblr.com/603539c1...7c5441e02b.jpg

----------


## Rac7d*

> They should've had Batgirl finish off that story. Babs would've known what Dick had been investigating, as they were in regular contact.


The shameless interruptions they would do always irritated me. I love dicks loyalty to Bruce, but he has so many allies and partners, someone else could have helped him that night

----------


## Avi

> I'm always surprised when I'm reminded that Dick has spent most of his live action adaptations on tv and only been in 2 major Batman films. 
> https://64.media.tumblr.com/603539c1...7c5441e02b.jpg


Hopefully that changes. It's time for Dick on the modern big screen.




> The shameless interruptions they would do always irritated me. I love dicks loyalty to Bruce, but he has so many allies and partners, someone else could have helped him that night


They really are shameless interruptions. And it's not as if any monetary gain was made. Especially in this latest case. It was just another way to keep Dick away from the greater DCU.

I mean, editorial did this despite writers offering other solutions. Nightwing dropped below 20k. Titans got axed soon after he left. Sejic very likely left JLO/DC because he had to redraw JLO for that reason. Dick appeared on one of the original pages he showed.

And all that because some higher-ups hated the character. It's truly pathetic.

----------


## Ascended

It really is. Gods know I've bitched about that plenty over the years but I really wish I could get Didio for ten minutes, and get a straight answer out of him concerning Dick's treatment. Where was the gain? Who actually benefitted from their handling of the character and who the hell thought it was actually good for business? 

I rolled that situation around in my head far more than I should have, applied everything I know about business to it, checked my own fandom at the door so it wouldn't sway my observations, and could not come up with a reasonable excuse for how Nightwing got handled. And I'd love to find out if there was something there that I simply hadn't considered or if it really was just personal opinion clouding business decisions. I'd like to think a high ranking administrator wouldn't be so f*cking stupid and selfish as to sabotage a IP for their own personal biases, but nothing else makes sense to me and that just pisses me off so much.

Thank the gods that seems to be a thing of the past. Maybe the new people won't handle Nightwing the way I'd like to see, and they'll certainly approve stories and directions that won't pan out. But I don't think it'll be intentional sabotage; they seem to want Nightwing to be successful and seem willing to put their money where their mouth is. I'm quite happy to put all the Didio stuff behind us and move forward into a brighter future. Nice that the company isn't trying to sink this ship anymore.  :Big Grin:

----------


## AmiMizuno

I honestly feel it was the Bateditors because they limit his outside use many times. I want more than just the Batfam appearing in his books. Is there any confirmation of other heroes in his comics? I'm curious would Dick be able to carry his own animated film or show? Because if Dc can't allow us to have a movie maybe a show. So it seems Dick will appear in Harley Quinn. I wish they made hints like the Titans are helping since the JL is gone. Well the main ones. What were the others doing?

----------


## Gray Lensman

> I honestly feel it was the Bateditors because they limit his outside use many times. I want more than just the Batfam appearing in his books. Is there any confirmation of other heroes in his comics? I'm curious would Dick be able to carry his own animated film or show? Because if Dc can't allow us to have a movie maybe a show. So it seems Dick will appear in Harley Quinn. I wish they made hints like the Titans are helping since the JL is gone. Well the main ones. What were the others doing?


If Dick ever truly grows they think it would diminish Bruce.  I think the opposite is true, if the former Robins can't ever truly spread their wings then Bruce is a failure as a teacher.

----------


## HsssH

> Shawn was cool and all, but i wouldn't say she is memorable.
> 
> What was memorable was the melt down some people had when she thought she was pregnant. LOL Funny days.
> 
> Better than Batman, Nightwing must die and Raptor's Revenge was Seeley best work on Nightwing. 
> 
> If i had to rank this book by arcs before the Ric stuff it would be like this:
> 
> 1 - Better than Batman
> ...


Maybe I'm remembering wrong, but wasn't there a dip in quality for Raptor's Revenge? I think art was much weaker and there even were some spelling mistakes.

----------


## Drako

> Maybe I'm remembering wrong, but wasn't there a dip in quality for Raptor's Revenge? I think art was much weaker and there even were some spelling mistakes.


Artwise, yes. Javi Fernandez didn't draw all of the arc. But it had great moments and i really like the last issue.

Can't say anything about spelling mistakes, cause i read once when it came out and then i reread when i bought the TPB here, but that was translated to portuguese.

----------


## Restingvoice

It's happening. Someone made a roleplay blog of Bitewing

"listen. listen. if he insists on leaving his escrima sticks out on the couch then i will use them to play fetch it's how the world works"

- Bitewingbarks

----------


## AmiMizuno

> If Dick ever truly grows they think it would diminish Bruce.  I think the opposite is true, if the former Robins can't ever truly spread their wings then Bruce is a failure as a teacher.


I hope that with the new writer. We get to see Dick more outside Batfam. Is there any plans to have Dick go outside ?

----------


## Avi

> I hope that with the new writer. We get to see Dick more outside Batfam. Is there any plans to have Dick go outside ?


Not as far as I can tell. In one of the Youtube interviews, Redondo said they won't focus on the Titans, and all they have been teasing on Twitter are Tim and more Babs. No word on any of Dick's previous supporting casts making reappearances. Maybe after the Heartless arc...

----------


## AmiMizuno

The issue is if they put Babs together with Dick. I worry that they will once again chain him down. At least he is appearing
Outside like in Joelle's Wonder Girl. I hope he at least mKwa appearances outside of Batfam comics from time to time. Be nice to see him and Superman

----------


## Restingvoice

Taylor confirmed Dick is now much richer than Bruce
https://twitter.com/TomTaylorMade/st...71824682635264

----------


## Rac7d*

> The issue is if they put Babs together with Dick. I worry that they will once again chain him down. At least he is appearing
> Outside like in Joelle's Wonder Girl. I hope he at least mKwa appearances outside of Batfam comics from time to time. Be nice to see him and Superman


Why do see pairing as chains? that a bleak look on relationships. Considering Titans academy is going on simultaneously he will be fine

----------


## AmiMizuno

> Why do see pairing as chains? that a bleak look on relationships. Considering Titans academy is going on simultaneously he will be fine


Becuase editors did this to him before. I don't think their relationship will be bleak has only has editors don't have a hold on him like last time.


You guys think WB will ever take the risk on Nightwing solo movie? If so what should play Nightwing? To be honest I want an unknown

----------


## Frontier

> Taylor confirmed Dick is now much richer than Bruce
> https://twitter.com/TomTaylorMade/st...71824682635264


To be honest I feel like people already put too much stock in how rich the Batfamily is.

----------


## Rac7d*

> To be honest I feel like people already put too much stock in how rich the Batfamily is.


It’s not the family it’s just Bruce 
We have seen dick Jason and Cass all have to slum it from time to time

----------


## Frontier

> It’s not the family it’s just Bruce 
> We have seen dick Jason and Cass all have to slum it from time to time


Still, though, I don't think it's something people need to overthink that much.

----------


## Avi

I hope we see something big happen with the money. Something outstandingly positive. Dick simply investing it would be no different from what Bruce has been doing.

----------


## Gray Lensman

> Why do see pairing as chains? that a bleak look on relationships. Considering Titans academy is going on simultaneously he will be fine


I think some see being paired with another Batfam member makes it more likely for Dick to become a jobber in whatever Batman event is coming up.  Pairing him with someone outside makes it more likely that he might not even be present the next time someone wants a pile of battered Robin's to show us how awesome Bruce is.  Or at least, that's my guess as to the sentiment.

----------


## Rakiduam

> Why do see pairing as chains? that a bleak look on relationships. Considering Titans academy is going on simultaneously he will be fine


The problem is not a relationship, the problem it's a relationship with Barbara. As right now this is a batman book about Batman sidekicks, Dick doesn't have his own world, he is sharing Batman's. Tylor isn't offering anything else, not even the dog is an original idea.




> I hope we see something big happen with the money. Something outstandingly positive. Dick simply investing it would be no different from what Bruce has been doing.


He is going to lose it, like always.

----------


## CPSparkles

> I liked what Seeley was initially doing with Bludhaven with Shawn, Svoboda, a more street-level story channeled through Seeley's writing style...etc. 
> 
> But that's just me.


I liked it as well.

----------


## WonderNight

> The problem is not a relationship, the problem it's a relationship with Barbara. As right now this is a batman book about Batman sidekicks, Dick doesn't have his own world, he is sharing Batman's. Tylor isn't offering anything else, not even the dog is an original idea.


Right it has more to do with his lack of independence, growth and relevents as a character. What dick needs is his own world and connections in the DCU not more bat or gotham. Guess which one babs brings to the table? Right now nightwing is nothing more than a bat sidekick, nightwing needs to be able to stand on his own just like all the other DC A-lister do if he's go to be one of them.

----------


## Alkaeus

Random question, since I'm not super familiar with Dick, but: has he ever served on the Justice League, either as Nightwing or Batman?

----------


## Rac7d*

> Random question, since I'm not super familiar with Dick, but: has he ever served on the Justice League, either as Nightwing or Batman?


Yes he’s has been both pre new 52

----------


## Grayson - The Dark Heir

> Random question, since I'm not super familiar with Dick, but: has he ever served on the Justice League, either as Nightwing or Batman?


He's led the Justice League as both Nightwing and Batman, look into The Obsidian Age and Robinson's JLA run.

----------


## Frontier

Nightwing art from Batman: The Adventure Continues Season 2.

----------


## Drako

> Nightwing art from Batman: The Adventure Continues Season 2.


I thought he would pop up sooner or later since the next arc is about the Court of Owls.

----------


## Frontier

> I thought he would pop up sooner or later since the next arc is about the Court of Owls.


Especially since he was an absolute no-show in the first season. Not even relevant to Jason's story at all.

----------


## Robanker

> Why do see pairing as chains? that a bleak look on relationships. Considering Titans academy is going on simultaneously he will be fine


It's because Nightwing is caught in an eternal tug-of-war between shippers so he literally can't get away from two plots: Batman's shadow and Which Redhead is His Soulmate?

He's been in a holding pattern for over two decades because of those so a lot of us are sour on Barbara or Kori even if we like those relationships.

Overall? I think relationships help heroes more than not, but Nightwing needs to put his love life to rest a little while.

----------


## Astralabius

> He is going to lose it, like always.


The money is going to Bruce when the next Batman writer decides he wants Bruce to be crazy rich again instead of just rich.

----------


## WonderNight

Do you guys think Nightwing can ever get as big as Spiderman in comics? If so what would it take & need. If not than way?

----------


## Godlike13

> Do you guys think Nightwing can ever get as big as Spiderman in comics? If so what would it take & need. If not than way?


A super big hit movie trilogy.

----------


## Lady Nightwing

Would any one happen to have the list of Nightwing (solo runs) trades, with title names? Eg: love and bullets. I'm in work at the moment and all I could find on my break was a lot more in depth reading orders.

----------


## Arsenal

> A super big hit movie trilogy.


Plus a super big hit Dick focused game or two.

----------


## Zorkel567

> Would any one happen to have the list of Nightwing (solo runs) trades, with title names? Eg: love and bullets. I'm in work at the moment and all I could find on my break was a lot more in depth reading orders.


The Nightwing Wikipedia page has them listed, under Collected Editions.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nightw...ected_editions

----------


## Lady Nightwing

You're a legend. Thanks very much  :Smile:

----------


## dropkickjake

Just read Teen Titans Academy #1 and I gotta say, I really enjoyed it.

----------


## Badou

> Do you guys think Nightwing can ever get as big as Spiderman in comics? If so what would it take & need. If not than way?


Not as Nightwing. Probably if he became Batman again or if DC rebooted and he became the only Robin again and then DC really pushed Robin like Ultimate Spider-man. Those are the two paths I can see. That or DC decides to retire Batman for good and have Nightwing lead the Batman franchise, but then it would just make more sense to have Dick be Batman over Nightwing in that situation. So I can't ever see Nightwing in the comics being what Spider-man is. I mean Spider-man is the second biggest character in comics behind Batman probably, and gets entire events every year built around him and his book that branch out into the MCU. Spider-man and Batman are the only two characters that get that sort of treatment as solo characters. 

Not even a successful trilogy of movies would change this I think. Aquaman got a billion dollar movie, the highest grossing DC movie of all time, and he doesn't even have a solo book right now and can barely hold down one ongoing title. I just don't think movies like that effect the comics a whole lot where it would jump a character like Nightwing up into the Spider-man or Batman level.

----------


## WonderNight

> Not as Nightwing. Probably if he became Batman again or if DC rebooted and he became the only Robin again and then DC really pushed Robin like Ultimate Spider-man. Those are the two paths I can see. That or DC decides to retire Batman for good and have Nightwing lead the Batman franchise, but then it would just make more sense to have Dick be Batman over Nightwing in that situation. So I can't ever see Nightwing in the comics being what Spider-man is. I mean Spider-man is the second biggest character in comics behind Batman probably, and gets entire events every year built around him and his book that branch out into the MCU. Spider-man and Batman are the only two characters that get that sort of treatment as solo characters. 
> 
> Not even a successful trilogy of movies would change this I think. Aquaman got a billion dollar movie, the highest grossing DC movie of all time, and he doesn't even have a solo book right now and can barely hold down one ongoing title. I just don't think movies like that effect the comics a whole lot where it would jump a character like Nightwing up into the Spider-man or Batman level.


Right but why not? Why not as nightwing, what would it take to get there? Is nightwing just forever going to be a midcard character and never a main event character? Than why.

What allows spiderman to work but not nightwing and can't dc replicate that for nightwing.

----------


## Gray Lensman

> Right but why not? Why not as nightwing, what would it take to get there? Is nightwing just forever going to be a midcard character and never a main event character? Than why.
> 
> What allows spiderman to work but not nightwing and can't dc replicate that for nightwing.


One big thing is that Spiderman isn't seen as a secondary character to the major star of the comic company.  There is no Marvel Batman who Spidey ever sidekicked to, so no one in editorial is going to try to shove him back in that particular box.

----------


## AmiMizuno

I would never want Dick to be Batman. It's kind of why. No I get it he is the firstborn. He is the best and Damian is too young. And yet they already have made characters who can replace Batman. It's like is he the best choice. That and I worry what will become of him has a character. Will they just recreate him like Bruce or still true to him

----------


## WonderNight

> One big thing is that Spiderman isn't seen as a secondary character to the major star of the comic company.  There is no Marvel Batman who Spidey ever sidekicked to, so no one in editorial is going to try to shove him back in that particular box.


So as long as nightwing isn't the head of his own franchise and corner of the dcu he'll never be anything more than he is now! 

The batfamily is so bloated right now why won't dc take this time to build nightwing into his own thing. Nightwing could be DC's spiderman. But they have him as just a bat support character.

If DC focused on building nightwing his own franchise his own family his own corner in the greater dcu and push him with there other A-listers nightwing can reach his full potential.

----------


## CPSparkles

> So as long as nightwing isn't the head of his own franchise and corner of the dcu he'll never be anything more than he is now! 
> 
> The batfamily is so bloated right now why won't dc take this time to build nightwing into his own thing. Nightwing could be DC's spiderman. But they have him as just a bat support character.
> 
> If DC focused on building nightwing his own franchise his own family his own corner in the greater dcu and push him with there other A-listers nightwing can reach his full potential.


If it was easy to get to Spiderman or Batman level then other comic characters would already be that popular. There's a reason why just those two are in that league . Wonder Woman has her own franchise and cast yet her comics don't sell as well as Nightwing's.

Nightwing is already an A lister even though he doesn't get the push, promo or focused other media material that members of the JL get.

Sure Dc isn't using him to his full potential and rarely treat him with the kind of respect that a character of his calibre deserves [the guy is the face of some of their most profitable franchises/IP's]

I wish DC would invest a lot more in pushing the character in outside media.  view him more as a Nightwing independent hero and less as Nightwing: former Robin.

That mindset is why they let writers treat him like Bat support and why there no real motivation to build and maintain a defined and recurring cast for him.

I don't see Nightwing becoming as big as Spiderman. That's almost impossible esp in today's world. Back in the early days of comics there was a chance [given time and dedication sure but not today]

----------


## Ascended

> Right but why not? Why not as nightwing, what would it take to get there? Is nightwing just forever going to be a midcard character and never a main event character? Than why.
> 
> What allows spiderman to work but not nightwing and can't dc replicate that for nightwing.


In larger media, Nightwing could easily become a household name ("easy" by the scale of large scale business and entertainment, so pretty damn difficult) . A few good movies, a good video game, cartoon, toy line and t-shirts....if the Guardians of the Galaxy can become a big deal then it should be relatively easy for Dick; he seems to thrive in larger media despite rarely/never being a leading man so imagine the reaction when someone actually puts in some effort? 

In comics, it's nearly impossible to elevate a character to any lasting, real degree. A particular run might set the charts on fire, but maintaining that over the long term and breaking the glass ceiling? You need a miracle; so much demand from the audience you practically have no choice in the matter. It's not impossible but come on. 

And none of it will equal, much less surpass, Spidey. Parker is, I believe, the most profitable superhero on earth, known around the world. He's been a big gods damn deal for generations, with a steady stream of video games (some of them even good!), movies, cartoons, toys, etc. Give Nightwing a century of insane investment in every imaginable format and he'll only begin to stand equal to Spider-Man. But success isn't measured by out-selling Spider-Man any more than a race car's success is measured by the speed of light.

----------


## WonderNight

Ok so what was the steps that allowed Spiderman to get to that level and should DC change the way they go about nightwing? Instead if nightwing being dc's daredevil he should be batman meets spiderman.

Like he has the skills/tech of batman and the tone/status of Spiderman. Also if nightwing ever does get his own corner what would you like that corner to be?

----------


## Rac7d*

> Ok so what was the steps that allowed Spiderman to get to that level and should DC change the way they go about nightwing? Instead if nightwing being dc's daredevil he should be batman meets spiderman.
> 
> Like he has the skills/tech of batman and the tone/status of Spiderman. Also if nightwing ever does get his own corner what would you like that corner to be?


They would have to do what marvel does for spider 
And that what DC does for Spider-Man 

Every few years new animation and a new live action movie 
Every generation always having a Spider-Man or batman
That’s not gonna happen, Nightwing need to follow the Harley Quinn path, but to complete that he needs to appear in films

----------


## Badou

> Right but why not? Why not as nightwing, what would it take to get there? Is nightwing just forever going to be a midcard character and never a main event character? Than why.
> 
> What allows spiderman to work but not nightwing and can't dc replicate that for nightwing.


Spider-man was created in an era 60 years ago where comics sold a lot more. Then over time it allowed these characters to be engrained into popular culture and become these massive media franchises. It is like that for all these big characters. Batman, Superman, Flash, Wonder Woman, Hulk and so on. They have been grandfathered in from an era of comics that doesn't really exist anymore. If you took Spider-man and erased him from history and then tried to introduce him as a new character in comics in 2021 odds are he could barely hold down one ongoing series. When you look at the last 20 or 30 years of comics neither Marvel or DC has created any new individual characters on the level of a Batman or Spider-man. So I don't think it is realistically possible for comics to ever have the kind of impact like they did decades ago. Maybe if DC had invested a ton and turned Nightwing into a solo characters in the 80s after his debut he would be closer, but I don't know.

I mean when I think about it who are the last individual characters to really come close to the level of a Spider-man? Where they are these franchise level characters. Maybe Harley Quinn, Wolverine, and Deadpool? I can't think of any beyond that. Harley was created in the 90s but had the Batman franchise elevate her and also was helped by being the Joker's girlfriend. So she got a boost by being directly connected to the most famous comic hero in Batman and the most famous comic villain in the Joker. Then Wolverine was created in the 70s but didn't get a solo book until the late 80s. Still, he became a breakout character like 40 years ago back during an era where comics had a lot more influence, and that carried over into the 90s where the X-Men and Wolverine exploded in popularity even more. 

Deadpool is probably the most unique case. Since he wasn't created that long ago and he isn't directly connected to these other massive characters like a Batman or Joker. His popularity took off because of his very strong costume design and unique powers. When combined with his style of comedy it really caught on and his popularity started to grow where Marvel started investing more and more into the character. More books and merchandise and people kept buying them. But still, characters like this feel like an exception compared to the massive amount of comic characters out there. You could redesign Nightwing and give him a much better costume that is far more marketable, his current design I think is too simple to ever be that marketable, and also experiment with giving him some unique powers or abilities, but I don't know if this would really change the character's status that much overall. Dunno, but as the character is now he isn't ever going to have some kind of Deadpool-like breakout because he would have already had it if he was capable of it. 

I mean sure, if DC/WB decided to invest billions into Nightwing across all kinds of media then he could rise to the level of Spider-man, but that isn't realistic. Since it will always make more sense for them to just invest more in Batman as he will always bring in a higher return. Why make a Nightwing movie, TV series, animated series, or anything when Batman would be more successful? So Nightwing is going to forever be behind Batman, but at the same time Nightwing and Dick Grayson are only relevant because of his connection to Batman. If you erased everything Batman related to the character odds are he wouldn't be that successful. So it is a double edge sword. Plus Nightwing is also stuck behind Robin too. In order to establish Nightwing properly you have to establish Batman and also Robin, which is an extra step to setting up the character. It's an extra hoop to jump though. Nightwing will always be known as being the first Robin above all else, which means makes his use in other media a bit more difficult compared to more individual characters like a Spider-man.

----------


## John Venus

I know this is most people's least favorite era of Nightwing but I always thought the Renegade mask and costume was cool:

----------


## Ascended

> Ok so what was the steps that allowed Spiderman to get to that level and should DC change the way they go about nightwing? Instead if nightwing being dc's daredevil he should be batman meets spiderman.
> 
> Like he has the skills/tech of batman and the tone/status of Spiderman. Also if nightwing ever does get his own corner what would you like that corner to be?


The thing that elevated Spidey is the same thing that elevated everyone else on the A-list; consumer demand. 

Compare the success of Harley to the success of Carol Danvers. With Harley, she was just a side character that proved surprisingly popular with the audience, so she went from a "one appearance" character to a semi-regular face in the old cartoons. The comics brought her over, and as fan demand for her increased, the company responded by supplying more content with her, until she was leading her own books and showing up regularly in larger media. 

Carol, on the other hand, wasn't elevated by demand; Marvel decided they wanted to push her as their leading female and started providing supply, hoping that consumer demand would catch up to it. And ten years later it's debatable how successful this effort has been; Carol's certainly a bigger name than she was, but is she truly among the A-list? 

The only real hope for Nightwing is that he gets a film, video game, or show/cartoon that really sets the charts on fire....and that DC responds appropriately and leans into that increased visibility. If we get quality Nightwing in larger media, it increases demand and the company can respond by increasing supply. That's really the only way to elevate a character, and DC has no real role there beyond responding to market demands with quality product. Success breeds success, and all that, but largely, it starts with us demanding more. But making Nightwing a big damn deal without the support and demand from consumers? Carol has a billion dollar film to her name and can still barely carry a single solo title, much less a full franchise.

It wouldn't take much to make Nightwing a very successful, popular character. But getting his book to sell at the top of the charts? That means getting the very insular comic buying market to change their buying habits and that's damn near impossible to do on purpose.

----------


## Drako

Some new pages of the next issue.
https://twitter.com/Bruno_Redondo_F/...66696241942531

----------


## Restingvoice

There's no way they're full after just two slices... I need at least four for a dinner.... though that's not Personal Pan... if it's Large then yeah they'll be full... and he wanted to order just two because he was broke

----------


## Rac7d*

> So as long as nightwing isn't the head of his own franchise and corner of the dcu he'll never be anything more than he is now! 
> 
> The batfamily is so bloated right now why won't dc take this time to build nightwing into his own thing. Nightwing could be DC's spiderman. But they have him as just a bat support character.
> 
> If DC focused on building nightwing his own franchise his own family his own corner in the greater dcu and push him with there other A-listers nightwing can reach his full potential.


Not true 

If he appears in a couple live action movies it do the trick. 
S2 of Titans did nothing becuase he took all 13 episodes to don the persona.
This summer we should hopefully get him in a quick succession from Titans, YJ 4 then Harley Quinn.

Its important he is made relevant while the ideas of a Batgirl movie is a priority for DC. Thats his only chance for entry.

----------


## Frontier

> Some new pages of the next issue.
> https://twitter.com/Bruno_Redondo_F/...66696241942531


"You wear the tightest costume of any of us. At least when I'm not drawn by Clay Mann." 

I get where Dick's coming from but I don't think there's anything Bruce can do as Bruce Wayne that he hasn't already done at this point. Actually, I guess he's acknowledging Batman is more real than Bruce Wayne is with the way he's phrasing it.

----------


## Rac7d*

> Some new pages of the next issue.
> https://twitter.com/Bruno_Redondo_F/...66696241942531


This was so cute ��
814BF26A-56EB-4C08-BB4E-2A779A27486B.jpg
2331E835-7EC0-461E-BA8E-DD7143E704FE.jpg

----------


## Badou

> Some new pages of the next issue.
> https://twitter.com/Bruno_Redondo_F/...66696241942531


The shot at Didio with the "going out of business" sign was nice, lol.

----------


## Pohzee

> The shot at Didio with the "going out of business" sign was nice, lol.


A lot of people think that's supposed to be George Perez rather than Didio

----------


## Badou

> A lot of people think that's supposed to be George Perez rather than Didio


I guess that might be it too. The name of the place would indicate it, but the going out of business thing made me think of Didio I guess, haha.

----------


## Pohzee

> I guess that might be it too. The name of the place would indicate it, but the going out of business thing made me think of Didio I guess, haha.


That would be somewhat vindicating lol. Dick really needs a new rogue named Dan

----------


## Restingvoice

> "You wear the tightest costume of any of us. At least when I'm not drawn by Clay Mann." 
> 
> I get where Dick's coming from but I don't think there's anything Bruce can do as Bruce Wayne that he hasn't already done at this point. Actually, I guess he's acknowledging Batman is more real than Bruce Wayne is with the way he's phrasing it.


They're doing that thing. The social media trending view of Bruce apparently not doing anything aside from punching people, connected with Tynion making Bruce less rich, and who knows maybe DC behind him making an attempt to fix his social media image.

Like this is Bruce's Aquaman Talks To Fish reputation fixing era that they did in New 52.

Edit: Ooh. People brought it up to Taylor and he answered

"Well, context is important instead of sharing a single panel and ignoring the story, but I realise this is the internet, and context and intent will never get in the way of a good piece of outrage. 1/

2/ Dick has, historically, put himself out there more in his civilian identity. Bruce has disguised his true self from the public more.
Bruce Wayne has still done many incredible, charitable things for people. And as Batman he’s one of the greatest heroes."





> A lot of people think that's supposed to be George Perez rather than Didio


Idk what Perez or Marv looks like so I also thought Didio at first but eventually realized it doesn't fit placing him there

----------


## Pohzee

Wasn't there supposed to be like some Steve Orlando Nightwing story coming out sometime? Did that ever end up happening?

----------


## Restingvoice

> Edit: Ooh. People brought it up to Taylor and he answered
> 
> "Well, context is important instead of sharing a single panel and ignoring the story, but I realise this is the internet, and context and intent will never get in the way of a good piece of outrage. 1/
> 
> 2/ Dick has, historically, put himself out there more in his civilian identity. Bruce has disguised his true self from the public more.
> Bruce Wayne has still done many incredible, charitable things for people. And as Batman hes one of the greatest heroes."


3/ And this isnt the age-old internet argument about Bruce Wayne doing more with his money. This is two people who know him well, discussing  how Batman has sacrificed a lot playing Bruce Wayne as a character - knowing hes done so to protect the people he loves...

4/ ... But knowing the real Bruce Wayne, is it any wonder his son would like the public to see him as he does? 
Does it really shock people that Dick Grayson would like to see Bruce Wayne lead as well as Batman? 
This is nothing new. This is something Alfred always wanted too.

5/ In our series, Nightwing has some big decisions to make that go beyond the mask. This is the start of that story...

6/ Ill end by saying, its okay, Batman doesnt need anyone to defend him.
Hes Batman.

...Nightwings sidekick.

(lmao he's been saying that since a commenter said that Nightwing is one of the few sidekicks whose title has reached the 70s)

----------


## Rakiduam

> 3/ And this isnt the age-old internet argument about Bruce Wayne doing more with his money. This is two people who know him well, discussing  how Batman has sacrificed a lot playing Bruce Wayne as a character - knowing hes done so to protect the people he loves...
> 
> 4/ ... But knowing the real Bruce Wayne, is it any wonder his son would like the public to see him as he does? 
> Does it really shock people that Dick Grayson would like to see Bruce Wayne lead as well as Batman? 
> This is nothing new. This is something Alfred always wanted too.
> 
> 5/ In our series, Nightwing has some big decisions to make that go beyond the mask. This is the start of that story...
> 
> 6/ Ill end by saying, its okay, Batman doesnt need anyone to defend him.
> ...


So... the book is completely defined by Batman, and Dick isn't even the lead on his title book. Because of writing  like these Nightwing never will be on Spiderman's league.

You can't make a movie about Nightwing without Batman first, because that's how they write him. These are two sidekicks talking about the hero, it's all about Bruce.

----------


## Grayson - The Dark Heir

> So... the book is completely defined by Batman, and Dick isn't even the lead on his title book. Because of writing  like these Nightwing never will be on Spiderman's league.
> 
> You can't make a movie about Nightwing without Batman first, because that's how they write him. These are two sidekicks talking about the hero, it's all about Bruce.


Well for one, the conversation is about how a billionaire hero is going to use resources, and it wouldn't make sense for Dick or Babs to talk about Ollie first lol. For all we know, Ollie or other heroes might come up on the next page. This page is also about both Dick and Bruce's failings so far, because you know, a good story has to at least have the illusion of character change and growth. You can't do that if you completely ignore the entire background of the character by pretending Bruce doesn't exist.

The other thing to consider is that yeah, you do have to do Batman first for Dick. He doesn't even need to be on-screen, but he should exist because without Dick's background as Robin, he's just a generic hero character that doesn't have even a comparable amount of weight or depth that Spider-Man has, so that comparison makes no sense. Like, you're saying Dick should have a minimum of 40 years of his publishing history ignored for a movie? That you're talking about a Nightwing movie specifically and not a Titans one just makes that worse, because you really can't do Nightwing without Batman or the Titans. Batman is core to his origin and the Titans are core to his growth as a character, without either you basically just have a blank slate that no one has any reason to care about, in which case, why _would_ anyone make a Nightwing movie?




> Wasn't there supposed to be like some Steve Orlando Nightwing story coming out sometime? Did that ever end up happening?


It was a Digital First story that came in that Gotham Nights book, iirc. It was nothing special, sometimes I feel like I might be the only one who remembers that story lmao.

----------


## Rakiduam

> Well for one, the conversation is about how a billionaire hero is going to use resources, and it wouldn't make sense for Dick or Babs to talk about Ollie first lol. For all we know, Ollie or other heroes might come up on the next page. This page is also about both Dick and Bruce's failings so far, because you know, a good story has to at least have the illusion of character change and growth. You can't do that if you completely ignore the entire background of the character by pretending Bruce doesn't exist.
> 
> The other thing to consider is that yeah, you do have to do Batman first for Dick. He doesn't even need to be on-screen, but he should exist because without Dick's background as Robin, he's just a generic hero character that doesn't have even a comparable amount of weight or depth that Spider-Man has, so that comparison makes no sense. Like, you're saying Dick should have a minimum of 40 years of his publishing history ignored for a movie? That you're talking about a Nightwing movie specifically and not a Titans one just makes that worse, because you really can't do Nightwing without Batman or the Titans. Batman is core to his origin and the Titans are core to his growth as a character, without either you basically just have a blank slate that no one has any reason to care about, in which case, why _would_ anyone make a Nightwing movie?.


Pretty much the point. Peter doesn't need another character that makes him unique, Marvel proved you don't even need uncle Ben, and still have Spiderman. Nightwing is never going to be on the same level. And yeah, why would anyone make a Nightwing movie, when they can make a Batman movie or a Titans movie with Dick (or any other Robin really) in it?

What is more tragic, his history with the Titans has been erased, changed and co opted to the point is a bat family proprietary at this point. In the 90's Teen Titans manage to make 5 seasons without Batman, The New Teen Tians did whole arcs that had nothing to do with Batman. Now they turned The Titans into a batfamily show, they have made Dick's relationships a model for the bat character and the only person Dick talks is Barbara.   

And with stories as these one that is not going to change anytime soon.

----------


## Lady Nightwing

Realistically, you couldn't make a Nightwing movie without mentioning Bruce. He has a pivotal role in Dicks character. That's not a bad thing, as far as I know there hasn't been a Spiderman movie that hasn't been populated with a supporting cast that featured in the comics. Just because you'd have to mention Bruce to establish Dicks backstory wouldn't automatically make him the star of the movie.

----------


## Avi

> I know this is most people's least favorite era of Nightwing but I always thought the Renegade mask and costume was cool:  
> 
> [...]
> 
> [...]


I wouldn't mind if that mask came back either. I actually enjoyed those stories a lot more than some other Blüdhaven stuff. Maybe I would feel different if I had read it monthly, but I thought it used the (guest) characters in intriguing ways. The dynamic between Dick and Roy reminded me of their Outsiders run. 





> [...]
> 
> It was a Digital First story that came in that Gotham Nights book, iirc. It was nothing special, sometimes I feel like I might be the only one who remembers that story lmao.


I remember it as painfully mediocre. In hindsight, it is _maybe_ the slightest bit amusing that it featured yet another Zucco kid.




> Realistically, you couldn't make a Nightwing movie without mentioning Bruce. He has a pivotal role in Dicks character. That's not a bad thing, as far as I know there hasn't been a Spiderman movie that hasn't been populated with a supporting cast that featured in the comics. Just because you'd have to mention Bruce to establish Dicks backstory wouldn't automatically make him the star of the movie.


This. I'd even say Dick could appear as Nightwing whenever he wants from a creative standpoint. He doesn't need to be established as Robin first if the movie betrays snippets of his backstory along the way. The majority knows Robin, once the name has dropped an audience can draw their own conclusions without needing a Robin or Batman & Robin movie before it. 


The creative side truly wouldn't be the issue, it's just that DC doesn't want to do it. As has been pointed out not even in the comics. 

I still hope Taylor can do something unique with Nightwing, but for now, it's Babs and more Babs with a few other bat characters sprinkled in. One of them presumably Tim. While I think there is a re-defining of Tim's and Dick's relationship needed (because New52) it comes like 5 years too late or even 10.

----------


## Ascended

Of course you need to establish Dick's history in a film, just like you have to establish Krypton or Themyscria for Clark and Diana. 

But you don't need, like, a trilogy of Batman films that introduce Dick as Robin and go through that part of Dick's life, then a Titans movie with DickRobin, and then another Titans movie where he finally puts on the Nightwing suit, and *then* the solo film.

A movie can establish all of that origin stuff within the first few minutes of a film; Robin grew up and became Nightwing. Done. You don't even need to really show Batman on screen at all to do that. Hell, far as I know the Titans tv show didn't show Batman at first at all, and the cartoons show Dick growing up to become Nightwing without having to dump tons of background and exposition too. 

And again, measuring success by Spider-Man is a mistake; if you're waiting for Dick to become that big you'll be waiting forever. But just because Dick isn't as famous as Parker, literally the most profitable superhero on earth and one of the few truly iconic comic characters, doesn't mean Nightwing can't be or isn't successful. Dick's been showing up in larger media since the 40's as Robin, since the 90's as Nightwing, has a solo more consistently than Arrow, Aquaman, the Titans, and several other big DC IP's, and sells better than at least half of DC's titles. He's successful already, just not "Everyone on earth knows his name" successful. And even achieving that wouldn't be *too* hard, if a good film was made (which, again, doesn't really require Batman or Robin beyond the first few "origin" minutes of the movie).

----------


## Rakiduam

> Realistically, you couldn't make a Nightwing movie without mentioning Bruce. He has a pivotal role in Dicks character. That's not a bad thing, as far as I know there hasn't been a Spiderman movie that hasn't been populated with a supporting cast that featured in the comics. Just because you'd have to mention Bruce to establish Dicks backstory wouldn't automatically make him the star of the movie.


What I'm saying is that compare Spiderman to Nightwing is absurd. Spiderman has his own universe, whit a galery of very popular character that orvit around him. Nightwing lives in Batman's universe and DC won't never alow him to move beyond that. 

Right now he isn't even the star of his own book. There's nothing to it, not even a promise that will move from Bruce shadow.

Higgins tried to expand his scope with the Amusument Mile and  Seeley tried to build mithos on his familly. And here we are with Taylor, that has alegedly all the frredom in the world to do whatever he wants, and he is just using him as side character and anchor him more to Batman.

Eddit: Funny enough, this will come out the same day that Jason may end kicking his ass to get to the new Batman, who is really the important character.

----------


## Frontier

> They're doing that thing. The social media trending view of Bruce apparently not doing anything aside from punching people, connected with Tynion making Bruce less rich, and who knows maybe DC behind him making an attempt to fix his social media image.
> 
> Like this is Bruce's Aquaman Talks To Fish reputation fixing era that they did in New 52.
> 
> Edit: Ooh. People brought it up to Taylor and he answered
> 
> "Well, context is important instead of sharing a single panel and ignoring the story, but I realise this is the internet, and context and intent will never get in the way of a good piece of outrage. 1/
> 
> 2/ Dick has, historically, put himself out there more in his civilian identity. Bruce has disguised his true self from the public more.
> ...





> 3/ And this isn’t the age-old internet argument about Bruce Wayne doing more with his money. This is two people who know him well, discussing  how Batman has sacrificed a lot playing Bruce Wayne as a character - knowing he’s done so to protect the people he loves...
> 
> 4/ ... But knowing the real Bruce Wayne, is it any wonder his son would like the public to see him as he does? 
> Does it really shock people that Dick Grayson would like to see Bruce Wayne lead as well as Batman? 
> This is nothing new. This is something Alfred always wanted too.
> 
> 5/ In our series, Nightwing has some big decisions to make that go beyond the mask. This is the start of that story...
> 
> 6/ I’ll end by saying, it’s okay, Batman doesn’t need anyone to defend him.
> ...


That sounds better. I mean, I don't know if Bruce being more genuine in public would make that much of a difference, his intentions are generally genuine, but I can see where Dick is coming from.

----------


## Lazurus33

Nightwing #79 Preview

https://comic-watch.com/news/sneak-p...9-by-dc-comics

----------


## Darkcrusade25

After reading the issue, I feel like Taylor got a lot of his inspiration from Kyle Higgin’s run.

----------


## HsssH

I'd be ok with Dick talking about Bruce and money if at the same time we didn't have Tynion doing his "Batman is too rich" thing. So you know, you might talk about character motivations, but I think at this point it is clear that this is bigger "meta story" that Tynion, Taylor (maybe) and some editors want to tackle. And I don't care about it.

----------


## Restingvoice

"Dick has been hanging around Bludhaven for the longest time, but the city has rarely felt as authentically gritty and challenging as it does here. Usually it’s portrayed as a caricature of a mobbed-up city, and crime bosses like the notorious Boss Maroni are present, but Taylor wisely focuses here on the people left behind and abandoned by the city." - Ray, Geekdad

----------


## WonderNight

Yeah I guess. Its just if dick is living in a city that's gritty and has other bat characters running around why isn't he just in gotham  :Confused: . What becomes the point of bludhaven?

----------


## Drako

Another great issue, with some cool character moments. That splash page with Dick going from the top of a building to beating some mobs was awesome. 

The guy in the pizzeria was definitely not Didio, that was George Perez. Marv Wolfman also appears later in a shot behind Babs.

People who expected Babs to suit up here'll be disaponted.

Not much about Heartless yet, but i hope he is not that kid that was bullying Dick in the flashback of the last issue. I really dislike this kinda of "coincidences".

----------


## Godlike13

Interesting issue. Explores the question of why is Dick is invested in Bludhaven with the idea of having him want to literally invest in Bludhaven. Guess we will see how that goes. The Dick and Babs game is strong here, that’s alway cute, but the real star here is the art. Holy crap. It’s next level. That spread where he goes from roof top to punching the mobster is something else.

----------


## sifighter

> Another great issue, with some cool character moments. That splash page with Dick going from the top of a building to beating some mobs was awesome. 
> 
> The guy in the pizzeria was definitely not Didio, that was George Perez. Marv Wolfman also appears later in a shot behind Babs.
> 
> People who expected Babs to suit up here'll be disaponted.
> 
> Not much about Heartless yet, but i hope he is not that kid that was bullying Dick in the flashback of the last issue. I really dislike this kinda of "coincidences".


I think we already know who Heartless is :Stick Out Tongue: 

D9066AC5-BE44-4752-9E58-AAC33BB7AEBA.jpg

He admitted it in the song after all (sorry I couldn’t resist the joke).

----------


## Rakiduam

....Nothing happened.

----------


## Avi

I enjoyed the quiet moments. That's where Taylor's dialogue and Redondo's drawings seem to shine the most.

But the journey toward the answer of "What will Dick do with the money in Blüdhaven?" didn't feel impactful to me. If Dick had actually interacted with the kids instead of just walking away I might feel different.

Overall I felt a disconnect with this Issue. The panel where Dick screams "Wait!" at the homeless man and his son took me out of the story a lot. It was the equivalent OF SOMEONE SUDDENLY WRITING IN CAPITAL and the reader feeling as if the other is screaming in their face. Only like 100 times worse when reading in GuidedView.





> I think we already know who Heartless is
> 
> D9066AC5-BE44-4752-9E58-AAC33BB7AEBA.jpg
> 
> He admitted it in the song after all (sorry I couldnt resist the joke).


Now that explains why Dick is dancing in Heartless palm on cover #81.  :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## Batman Begins 2005

Man, Nightwing is one gorgeous book to look at. Great Nightwing #79 by Taylor/Redondo/Lucas.

----------


## dropkickjake

Definitely more slow burn here. I'm glad I stayed away from previews this time. Helped the issue to feel more full to me. 

Dick and Babs were great in this. Didn't seem to step on each others toes or make the other seem incompetent. Believable that they have been close for years and years. The bit about the bat group chat is fantastic. Odds that Bruce is left out of that? OR if he's in it, he definitely texts "keep this channel clear" at least once a night.

I think what we have here is the invers of Seeley's run. Seeley was in Bludhaven because he had to be. You could feel that his Bludhaven arcs just didn't have the same passion as his globetrotting ones. Taylor seems to love the city and want it to feel real. He is taking his time world building.

You just cant say enough about this arc. I loved the two page spread Godlike mentioned, and honestly the whole fight with the two mobsters was pretty nice. When we do get a more classic superhero fight, I expect it will be quite satisfying.

----------


## Rac7d*

What are the chances of the book returning to bi monthly

----------


## dropkickjake

> What are the chances of the book returning to bi monthly


Not high enough. I miss that release schedule. Should be the norm.

----------


## Pohzee

> What are the chances of the book returning to bi monthly


That would be horrible. I want Redondo doing as many consecutive issues as possible. He's killing it

----------


## AdjectiveNoun

Will Dick cancel his credit card?

----------


## Rakiduam

> Will Dick cancel his credit card?


Maybe that's the bombshell Taylor was hyping. Barbara wll remaind him and they will celebrat in the Batman grup chat... a great issue.

----------


## Lady Nightwing

I skipped the previews but this issue still felt short. Nothing really happened, they established the baddies a bit more but that's about it. I mean, if you're not really into Dick/Babs there's not a whole lot here for you. Except the art which was phenomenal yet again.

----------


## Rac7d*

I don’t think an orphanage is the right moove becuase those always fall short unless under the constant eyes of the hero
Perhaps a shelter or soup kitchen.

----------


## Godlike13

The foundation for run is being set. Introducing the world (Bludhaven), its characters, and the leads motivations going forward.

I don't think this run is going to be like Grayson with Dick having bombastic, save the world, adventures each issue. But more grounded with personal and introspective exploration, where moments like Dick saving a dog or choosing to invest more in his home are made to seem as important as him saving the world.

----------


## Claude

> The guy in the pizzeria was definitely not Didio, that was George Perez. Marv Wolfman also appears later in a shot behind Babs.


Although there is a "Dan - You Are Fired!" post it note! 

Also, I know they're keeping the books seperate and rightly so, but funding the Teen Titans Academy with some of Alfred's money would be quite a neat connection. Especially if its acting as the "safety net" for young heroes that Dick is also trying to set up in Bludhaven.

----------


## lilyrose

Are Dick and Babs a couple here or just friends? I can't really tell and I haven't read these books before.

----------


## Drako

> Are Dick and Babs a couple here or just friends? I can't really tell and I haven't read these books before.


Currently just friends.
They are kinda like Ross and Rachel in that department.

----------


## Avi

> The foundation for run is being set. Introducing the world (Bludhaven), its characters, and the leads motivations going forward.
> 
> I don't think this run is going to be like Grayson with Dick having bombastic, save the world, adventures each issue. But more grounded with personal and introspective exploration, where moments like Dick saving a dog or choosing to invest more in his home are made to seem as important as him saving the world.


The problem for me with this Issue is that it really doesn't feel all that introspective. The first pages, sure, but especially the ending where Dick comes to his conclusion? No. 

I know what they were going for, but it just didn't have an impact on me. Instead of showing Dick interact with the children in a meaningful way, Dick just comes to the conclusion to use his money for the city. That's not a particularly astonishing solution.

----------


## Rac7d*

> The foundation for run is being set. Introducing the world (Bludhaven), its characters, and the leads motivations going forward.
> 
> I don't think this run is going to be like Grayson with Dick having bombastic, save the world, adventures each issue. But more grounded with personal and introspective exploration, where moments like Dick saving a dog or choosing to invest more in his home are made to seem as important as him saving the world.


Bruce has never actually succeeded in getting Gotham to be what he wanted. It be cool
If Nightwing could make Bludhaven into a better place

----------


## hairys

> I'd be ok with Dick talking about Bruce and money if at the same time we didn't have Tynion doing his "Batman is too rich" thing. So you know, you might talk about character motivations, but *I think at this point it is clear that this is bigger "meta story" that Tynion, Taylor (maybe) and some editors want to tackle.* And I don't care about it.


Hmmm, interesting.  I think you might be right.

Whatever Taylor has Dick planning to do, I hope it's intellectually sound with long-term sustainability built-in (which to me means Bludhaven has to end up actually producing something of value to the world and in the process create jobs for its people).

Loved the art.

----------


## bearman

I never understood Dicks reasoning for not accepting any funding from Bruce. Dick embraced the mission enough to devote his life to it; having sufficient resources would only hel the mission succeed. The reverse should now be true for the Dynamic Duo.

----------


## Rakiduam

> The foundation for run is being set. Introducing the world (Bludhaven), its characters, and the leads motivations going forward.
> 
> I don't think this run is going to be like Grayson with Dick having bombastic, save the world, adventures each issue. But more grounded with personal and introspective exploration, where moments like Dick saving a dog or choosing to invest more in his home are made to seem as important as him saving the world.


But Grayson was introspective and it didn't need two issues to introduce Nightwing and Batgirl, two characters everybody knows. Of course it never had the emotion of choosing investments or saving a dog (the movie write it self)




> Currently just friends.
> They are kinda like Ross and Rachel in that department.


They are almost as fun as those two too.




> I never understood Dicks reasoning for not accepting any funding from Bruce. Dick embraced the mission enough to devote his life to it; having sufficient resources would only hel the mission succeed. The reverse should now be true for the Dynamic Duo.


But he did. Didn't he? Pretty sure the money that went up in flames in Higgins run was Bruce's.

----------


## Arsenal

> The problem for me with this Issue is that it really doesn't feel all that introspective. The first pages, sure, but especially the ending where Dick comes to his conclusion? No. 
> 
> I know what they were going for, but it just didn't have an impact on me. Instead of showing Dick interact with the children in a meaningful way, Dick just comes to the conclusion to use his money for the city. That's not a particularly astonishing solution.


While I see what you’re saying, I think it’s safe to say that Dick’s idea is very much just that. I imagine that, as time goes on, we’ll witness that idea become something more concrete as we/he learns what kind of safety net the city truly needs. So I think we’ll get those meaningful interactions relatively soon as the city itself gets further fleshed out.

----------


## Avi

> But Grayson was introspective and it didn't need two issues to introduce Nightwing and Batgirl, two characters everybody knows. Of course it never had the emotion of choosing investments or saving a dog (the movie write it self)


That's very true.




> While I see what youre saying, I think its safe to say that Dicks idea is very much just that. I imagine that, as time goes on, well witness that idea become something more concrete as we/he learns what kind of safety net the city truly needs. So I think well get those meaningful interactions relatively soon as the city itself gets further fleshed out.


Sure, it'll definitely still get fleshed out but, idk, the Issue's central theme is Dick figuring out what he wants to do with the money. Showing us how Dick will use the money is what it's there for. But Dick comes to a conclusion that should be obvious. 

The narrative goes out of its way to tell us Dick knows how bad Blühaven is. It's Babs who has seemingly not understood yet. But then Dick is so shocked by homeless children asking if he is heartless, that he comes to the conclusion that he needs to use the money to save the city? A city he already wants to save? I mean, yeah, what else would Dick be doing with the money?

And the emotions, well. My problem is that we had a very similar story in December that had the exact emotional beats I'm missing here. #77 was pretty much #79 on a smaller scale just with (already not a billionaire) Bruce paying for a relocation of the homeless.

----------


## Blue22

Oh my God, this series has been so good so far. The art. The writing. The Dick and Babs interactions. This is just....so perfect. I know we're only two issues in but it feels SO good saying that one of my favorite DC books is a Nightwing one.

----------


## Godlike13

> But Grayson was introspective and it didn't need two issues to introduce Nightwing and Batgirl, two characters everybody knows. Of course it never had the emotion of choosing investments or saving a dog (the movie write it self).


Grayson didn’t even have inner monologue. It was more an overt show case of Dick at his best, throwing him and readers in the middle of these bombastic spy adventures. This is a slower approach, introducing the world of Bludhaven and its residents, exploring character motivations and values, and trying to make small personal moments seem big. One of the problems with the return of Bludhaven is we never really saw Dick personally invest in the city. Here was just there because he was there before. A Gotham like city for Nightwing to patrol. Never having the character investing more of himself beyond punching it’s bad guys.

----------


## Rakiduam

> Grayson didn’t even have inner monologue. It was more an overt show case of Dick at his best, throwing him and readers in the middle of these bombastic spy adventures. This is a slower approach, introducing the world of Bludhaven and its residents, exploring characters motivations and values, and trying to make small personal moments seem big.


That's why Grayson was so impressive. Didn't need exposition to tell the inner live of the characters. So, you think at this point, we need introduction to Dick and Barbara's motivations and values?...or Bludhaven for that matther? we know them, we have know them for years, they are not changing in this book. Small personal moments are small because they are not revealing anything new about the characters.

They made a big deal of Nightwing having his own symbol in the cover, but Nightwing has been more about Bruce and like Batman than in all previous runs. I agree though, it's so very slow. A slower, lamer Batman.

----------


## Rac7d*

> That's why Grayson was so impressive. Didn't need exposition to tell the inner live of the characters. So, you think at this point, we need introduction to Dick and Barbara's motivations and values?...or Bludhaven for that matther? we know them, we have know them for years, they are not changing in this book. Small personal moments are small because they are not revealing anything new about the characters.
> 
> They made a big deal of Nightwing having his own symbol in the cover, but Nightwing has been more about Bruce and like Batman than in all previous runs. I agree though, it's so very slow. A slower, lamer Batman.


Because their may be some new people on this journey with us

----------


## Rakiduam

> Because their may be some new people on this journey with us


....People said the same about Ric, and it moved faster.

----------


## Godlike13

> That's why Grayson was so impressive. Didn't need exposition to tell the inner live of the characters. So, you think at this point, we need introduction to Dick and Barbara's motivations and values?...or Bludhaven for that matther? we know them, we have know them for years, they are not changing in this book. Small personal moments are small because they are not revealing anything new about the characters.
> 
> They made a big deal of Nightwing having his own symbol in the cover, but Nightwing has been more about Bruce and like Batman than in all previous runs. I agree though, it's so very slow. A slower, lamer Batman.


This is coming off the heels of Ric. Dick’s motivations and values absolutely needs a reintroduction, Bludhaven even more so. Asking questions that they haven’t really explored with Bludhaven since it’s return. They are trying to get readers to reinvest in the character and his world again. Small personal moments give readers something to sympathize with and emotionally attach to.

----------


## Drako

> ....People said the same about Ric, and it moved faster.


No one said that about Ric, ever. In fact, we had less and less people around as the Ric arc went along.

----------


## Blue22

> Because their may be some new people on this journey with us


^^This^^

As someone who knows what it's like to jump into an ongoing series after it gets a new writer, what Taylor did is definitely an appreciated touch.

----------


## Godlike13

> ....People said the same about Ric, and it moved faster.


No it didn’t, Ric didn’t move at all. It just repeated itself over and over. Going nowhere, as they couldn’t actually find creators to figure out where to even move it.

----------


## Rakiduam

> No one said that about Ric, ever. In fact, we had less and less people around as the Ric arc went along.


That's true to most comics, but if you don't like the Ric example, there are plenty new independent comics that known they can't waste time and patience this way because they don't have the loyalty that come with knowng the character for years.




> No it didnt, Ric didnt move at all. It just repeated itself over and over. Going nowhere, as they couldnt actually find creators to figure out where to even move it.


Yet at this point they had already introduced the 4 Nightwings, it was a bad book, it was slow and directionless, and still more fast paced that this one.

----------


## Drako

> That's true to most comics, but if you don't like the Ric example, there are plenty new independent comics that known they can't waste time and patience this way because they don't have the loyalty that come with knowng the character for years.


The sales with Ric hit a all time low, so i don't think it was common with Nightwing.

About the second part, i don't know what you want me to say. That's your opinion, i don't feel like my time and patience are getting wasted. And people are liking the book around the internet.

I do feel like the develop of the plot is slow tho, but i'm enjoying the other parts of the book so it doesn't bothers me.

----------


## Godlike13

> Yet at this point they had already introduced the 4 Nightwings, it was a bad book, it was slow and directionless, and still more fast paced that this one.


4 Nightwings that ultimately went nowhere and served no actual purpose, as no one knew where anything was going. Half of each issue was recap with Ric. It’s was one of the most padded runs ever, that abused every decompression technique in the book. As the sole objective of its creators was to buy time for DC.

----------


## Badou

Art was great like last issue. Maybe some of the best art and coloring ever in a Nightwing book. I don't really have anything bad to say about it. I loved the use of blues, reds, and oranges in all of the pages, and the line work and detail was really well done too. Every character feels very distinct and the artist does a good job of giving Dick and Babs a lot of nice expressions. Just really well done. The art is doing most of the lifting so far in the run I think.

The story is still kind of underwhelming. I didn't think it was anything special and Dick needing a whole issue to realize that he can use his money to help the people of Bludhaven is kind of unneeded. I get what Taylor was trying to do, but I don't think it worked. Even if Dick doesn't like to use Bruce's money it isn't like he hasn't been around it and even controlled it when he was Batman himself. It's all part of Tynion's bigger Batman story I guess about how the rich and billionaires are evil so he took away Bruce's money, and now Dick is a billionaire who is going to "show the right way" to help, but these stories never really work in comics. Since a Batman or a Nightwing can't "fix" a city like Gotham or Bludhaven because then they lose their story content. They need the cities to be filled with villains and corrupt to write superhero stories. No one is going to care about a city that has no crime or villains in it, so trying to "fix" the city will always kind of run into a dead end. 

Also the bigger issue with the story is that Dick is the only character in the city that readers actually cares about, and I get that Taylor has spent the last two issues trying to pull at your heartstrings by introducing this poor crippled puppy, and now a bunch of homeless children and teens that have to steal to get by, to get you to care about the city but all this does is remind me how I don't have any attachment to anyone in Bludhaven. A Gotham has many established characters readers care about and want to see, but in Bludhaven it is just Nightwing. It's a bit similar to what a Higgins did in his Nightwing run with Haly's Circus. He tried to give us a reason to care about Haly's and a reason why Dick would want to save it, even saying it was his responsibility, but at the end of the day it didn't work because there was no one there any reader actually cared about, which is why it was so easily forgotten. Bludhaven is just a larger version of this and has run into the same problems and will run into them again in Taylor's run I believe. It is why he had to drag a Babs from Gotham to Bludhaven to use in order to give the reader someone else to care about, but she isn't going to be in Bludhaven forever. 

And it looks like the new Zucco daughter isn't Sonia given Dick didn't recognize her, which is unfortunate. So we get another Zucco kid that feels a bit redundant. I don't really have any opinions on the Heartless villain. Just a very standard introduction and not really anything beyond that. Also it was weird that the kids didn't recognize Nightwing. I mean he is the only hero in the city, so everyone there should be aware of him. Also I get it was done for comedy, but we have two instances now one bring when Dick gets judo flipped by Babs when trying to carefully enter his own apartment, and the other when he gets his wallet stolen by kids. Dick's situational awareness is pretty poor under Taylor it feels like.

----------


## Vordan

Beautiful art but I have to echo others about the story being lacking. Nothing really happened. The decompression is really dragging things out.

----------


## Pohzee

I prefer crafted character moments more than generic action. It's really nice to see heroes out of their costume, I miss that these days

----------


## Blue22

> I prefer crafted character moments more than generic action. It's really nice to see heroes out of their costume, I miss that these days


Same. The superhero stuff gets my attention but the lighter character moments like these are often what makes me stay. Besides, we're only two issues in. If this slow burn continued for another two or so months, then I could see the problem. But for now, I think the pace is fine.

----------


## HsssH

> That's why Grayson was so impressive. Didn't need exposition to tell the inner live of the characters. So, you think at this point, we need introduction to Dick and Barbara's motivations and values?.*..or Bludhaven for that matther?* we know them, we have know them for years, they are not changing in this book.


I think so. To me Bludhaven never really worked and not everything from Taylor is landing, but at least he is trying to create a situation in which it actually makes sense for Dick to be there.




> Since a Batman or a Nightwing can't "fix" a city like Gotham or Bludhaven because then they lose their story content. They need the cities to be filled with villains and corrupt to write superhero stories. No one is going to care about a city that has no crime or villains in it, so trying to "fix" the city will always kind of run into a dead end.


I'm not sure that I agree on Bludhaven's part. Nightwing is only hero there, it doesn't have to house 50 other heroes and DC isn't going to publish 5 Nightwing ongoins/minis/one-shots every month either. So yeah, I think that it is possible for Nightwing to make small incremental changes to the city that last. If anything, it would make the city stand out a bit instead of just being "Like Gotham, but lame".

----------


## Rac7d*

484F5C8A-6EA8-4F72-899C-D21A34E19E5E.jpg
By 凌三乐

----------


## Pohzee

Maybe Nightwing could like actually permanently fix Blüdhaven. And then he could move out and leave it alone  :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## Frontier

> 484F5C8A-6EA8-4F72-899C-D21A34E19E5E.jpg
> By 凌三乐


Dick and Babs in a Shojo Romance  :Stick Out Tongue: .

----------


## Rac7d*

> Maybe Nightwing could like actually permanently fix Blüdhaven. And then he could move out and leave it alone


If he could leave it in good hands

----------


## Restingvoice

Last time he did that the city got nuked. I'm looking forward to see what will happen this time, 50-70 issues from now

----------


## Rac7d*

> Last time he did that the city got nuked. I'm looking forward to see what will happen this time, 50-70 issues from now


Lol. There just no hope in this world Dick should be able to put in the work to restor that city and be able to leave it in the hands of other heroes without it fallling apart.

----------


## OBrianTallent

This was an absolutely perfect Nightwing book.

----------


## Restingvoice

Anyway, with Tom Taylor also writing Superman Son of Kal-El which stars Jon and confirmed to have Damian in it, he's already DM-ing Robin writer Josh Williamson, literally 40 minutes ago, on the possibility of this three series crossover.

----------


## HsssH

Last thing we need is Nightwing being a third wheel in Super Sons crossover.

----------


## Rac7d*

> Last thing we need is Nightwing being a third wheel in Super Sons crossover.


If it was whe Jon was 10 I would, Superman adores Dick and would love him as an influence in his son’s life.

----------


## bearman

Third wheel, no. Big brother, favorite uncle, you bet.
Execution is everything.

----------


## Restingvoice

> Last thing we need is Nightwing being a third wheel in Super Sons crossover.


I prefer the term Babysitter

----------


## Rac7d*

> I prefer the term Babysitter


Does a 14 and 17 year old need a babysitter? He would just be fulfilling his typical role as mentor and guide

----------


## Restingvoice

> Does a 14 and 17 year old need a babysitter? He would just be fulfilling his typical role as mentor and guide


Eh same thing

----------


## Rac7d*

> Eh same thing


your very negative

----------


## Ascended

Dammit my LCS got their shipment screwed up and I didn't get my Nightwing!!  :Mad: 

Now I gotta wait until next week or something! Grrr. 

But anyway, count me as someone who wants to see Dick and Jon interact; Dick's ties to the Kent family need to be reinforced and utilized again and I'd love to see him and Jon hang out. Jon can tease Damian about how Dick's better at everything and Damian can get jealous of Jon and Dick getting along. I feel like the comedy writes itself yknow?

----------


## Drako

https://twitter.com/Bruno_Redondo_F/...508802/photo/1

----------


## Drako

This new cover for Nightwing 79 is so awesome!




> They told us it’s good to share: Nightwing 79 (our second issue) is SOLD OUT too, SO, there will be a second print with new cover! I was really looking for a good excuse to do this one... colors by @fxstudiocolor @TomTaylorMade @jesswchen @DarranMRobinson @DCComics @thedcnation

----------


## Frontier

> https://twitter.com/Bruno_Redondo_F/...508802/photo/1


I think this is the first time I've seen a reference to that era for Black Canary in a while. 



> This new cover for Nightwing 79 is so awesome!


So wait, does Babs have the cowl again? I know it's a variant cover, but...

Also, kind of interesting progression where Robin Dick, and the core blue Nightwing's are smiling while the others aren't.

----------


## Godlike13

> This new cover for Nightwing 79 is so awesome!


This is an amazing cover, and I’ll tell you why. Look at the facial expressions. Not only is there the costumes but you can see in the face the attitude the character had during those eras.

----------


## Drako

Bruno Redondo may be the best artist Dick had as Nightwing. 

Dick had some amazing artists in his books over the years. George Perez, Frank Quitely, Mikel Janin, Scott McDaniels, Javi Fernandez, Travis Moore, Eddy Barrows, Tony Daniels, Patrick Gleason. The list goes on and on.

----------


## Badou

Kind of wish they included the Grayson era outfit and the Dickbats suit, but I guess the Batman suit wouldn't have worked with the cape hanging down.

----------


## Rac7d*

> https://twitter.com/Bruno_Redondo_F/...508802/photo/1


you know babs gave that to him !

I love this art !!!

----------


## Rac7d*

> This new cover for Nightwing 79 is so awesome!


it sold out again?!!!!

----------


## OBrianTallent

I really need them to stop putting original covers on 2nd printings....!  That cover is awesome!

----------


## Badou

I wonder if it would have still sold out if they gave this run a new #1 over just continuing with the old Rebirth numbering.

Edit: I also wonder what other new creative teams that didn't have their books relaunched also sold out. Like Bendis' JL or Tynion's Batman.

----------


## Lady Nightwing

> This new cover for Nightwing 79 is so awesome!


Alfred holding Robins Cape aloft is killing me.

----------


## Hypo



----------


## Rac7d*

> 


This looks epic

----------


## Korath

> 


I've got a nagging suspicion that Melinda will be revealed to be Dick's half-sister or something like that... call me crazy but the solicit or whatever worries me a little :

"And in Nightwing #82 on July 20, Melinda Zucco’s connection to the man who killed Dick Grayson’s parents wasn’t a surprise to the Blüdhaven hero, but what the former Robin discovers about Melinda’s ties to the Flying Graysons leaves the usually upbeat detective speechless!"

----------


## Restingvoice

> So wait, does Babs have the cowl again? I know it's a variant cover, but...


He said he drew that simply because it's iconic




> I wonder if it would have still sold out if they gave this run a new #1 over just continuing with the old Rebirth numbering.
> 
> Edit: I also wonder what other new creative teams that didn't have their books relaunched also sold out. Like Bendis' JL or Tynion's Batman.


Wouldn't it sold out faster thanks to the collectors and scalpers?




> 


I need a name on this artist




> https://twitter.com/Bruno_Redondo_F/...508802/photo/1


Perfectly cut to show off the biceps too

----------


## Badou

> I've got a nagging suspicion that Melinda will be revealed to be Dick's half-sister or something like that... call me crazy but the solicit or whatever worries me a little :
> 
> "And in Nightwing #82 on July 20, Melinda Zucco’s connection to the man who killed Dick Grayson’s parents wasn’t a surprise to the Blüdhaven hero, but what the former Robin discovers about Melinda’s ties to the Flying Graysons leaves the usually upbeat detective speechless!"


Her being Dick's sister would be such a stupid story. Unimaginably dumb. Not only would you be tarnishing Dick's parents if both, or one of them, had some hidden child Dick never knew about, but also having her join the Zucco family on some revenge quest would be so bad. What did they have to put her up for adoption and the Zucco family randomly adopted her? Something like that would be so awful.

----------


## Restingvoice

Brundo said that he considered including Batman cowl but 

"Thought on that a lot, but using it would have been confusing, as, “is that batman in the middle? why?” For those who missed that part..."

----------


## Badou

> Wouldn't it sold out faster thanks to the collectors and scalpers?


Don't think it would. Comic shops order a lot of #1s from a new series, especially popular ones. That would offset any collectors I think. It is why there is such a massive drop off in orders from issue #1 to #2. Variant covers play a part, but also the shelf life of a new #1 issue for a series is a lot longer than for some random # in an ongoing title. Since shops can sell that #1 a lot easier over time and it also has the highest chance to go up in value over time too. So there is a lot more incentive to over order for a new #1s than over order for something like Nightwing #78 even if it got a new creative team. But Taylor's Nightwing run selling out for two straight issues is really good. It doesn't even look like Bendis' JL did that.

----------


## Restingvoice

> Don't think it would. Comic shops order a lot of #1s from a new series, especially popular ones. That would offset any collectors I think. It is why there is such a massive drop off in orders from issue #1 to #2. Variant covers play a part, but also the shelf life of a new #1 issue for a series is a lot longer than for some random # in an ongoing title. Since shops can sell that #1 a lot easier over time and it also has the highest chance to go up in value over time too. So there is a lot more incentive to over order for a new #1s than over order for something like Nightwing #78 even if it got a new creative team. But Taylor's Nightwing run selling out for two straight issues is really good. It doesn't even look like Bendis' JL did that.


Right. The massive number is from the shop getting ready, not individual buyers. Forgot about that.

I was surprised from the other thread that Nightwing's Comichron number is so low considering how popular it is annd that it sold out but that's probably because the stores don't order that much compared to the number ones. Crime Syndicate is higher, that surprised me, but it's a #1.

----------


## Avi

> This new cover for Nightwing 79 is so awesome!


Love it. Redondo's Robin is a joy. The difference in facial expression is also great. I get that Redondo left out Batman, but I wish he would have found a place for Agent 37/Grayson.




> I wonder if it would have still sold out if they gave this run a new #1 over just continuing with the old Rebirth numbering.
> 
> Edit: I also wonder what other new creative teams that didn't have their books relaunched also sold out. Like Bendis' JL or Tynion's Batman.


Maybe it would have. The #1's of the New 52 and Grayson both got a 2nd Printing. Rebirth didn't, though. 

Batman #106 got a reprint too.




> 


Man. Jamal Campbell knows what he is doing. I'm looking forward to his story in Batman B & W next week, and I hope he stays on the Variants even if it's on and off.  




> I've got a nagging suspicion that Melinda will be revealed to be Dick's half-sister or something like that... call me crazy but the solicit or whatever worries me a little :
> 
> "And in Nightwing #82 on July 20, Melinda Zuccos connection to the man who killed Dick Graysons parents wasnt a surprise to the Blüdhaven hero, but what the former Robin discovers about Melindas ties to the Flying Graysons leaves the usually upbeat detective speechless!"


My first thought too, and I hope we are wrong.

----------


## Restingvoice

There he is



I... didn't expect him to be that buff in this title, because usually they have The Brave and The Bold art style that's pretty simplistic

----------


## Drako

> I've got a nagging suspicion that Melinda will be revealed to be Dick's half-sister or something like that... call me crazy but the solicit or whatever worries me a little :
> 
> "And in Nightwing #82 on July 20, Melinda Zuccos connection to the man who killed Dick Graysons parents wasnt a surprise to the Blüdhaven hero, but what the former Robin discovers about Melindas ties to the Flying Graysons leaves the usually upbeat detective speechless!"


Not the type of answers for a mystery that i enjoy. I don't really like this type of connections, but it worked with Raptor, so we'll see. I hope you're wrong. 

Looks like the long hair Nightwing is back, i fought they had discarded this "design" choice.

----------


## Drako

Future State: Gotham #3 variant

----------


## Drako

Nightwing #80 sneak peak:

----------


## Godlike13

Ugh, wrong Robin. But I get it’s a nod to Dixon’s train issue.

----------


## HsssH

> I wonder if it would have still sold out if they gave this run a new #1 over just continuing with the old Rebirth numbering.
> 
> Edit: I also wonder what other new creative teams that didn't have their books relaunched also sold out. Like Bendis' JL or Tynion's Batman.


Maybe it is going to be better in the long run this way. Selling out two months in a row does give some momentum, makes it sound like the book is delivering and that attracts new people. 

As for Nightwing getting a half-sister, this honestly might be a deal breaker for me.

----------


## Godlike13

Selling out is good and bad. It signifies an upward trend but also means DC isn’t producing enough/shops didn’t order enough. Ric and Jurgens dug a big hole, and shops used previous months as an order basis. A #1 might not have sold out because shops would have ordered more, but overall would have sold more, but because of how low the book was selling shops now just aren’t ordering enough.

----------


## Frontier

> There he is
> 
> 
> 
> I... didn't expect him to be that buff in this title, because usually they have The Brave and The Bold art style that's pretty simplistic


I hope Dick doesn't job to Talon here. 



> Ugh, wrong Robin. But I get it’s a nod to Dixon’s train issue.


I'm sure we'll get to Damian at some point.

----------


## Badou

> Maybe it is going to be better in the long run this way. Selling out two months in a row does give some momentum, makes it sound like the book is delivering and that attracts new people. 
> 
> As for Nightwing getting a half-sister, this honestly might be a deal breaker for me.


If she is Dick's sister the best thing we can hope for is that she goes the way of Alfred's daughter and gets written out and forgotten about after this run. 

It probably ties back into the things I've been saying about how worthless Bldudhaven is. Where a Taylor has to create a sister for Dick and then stick her in Bludhaven and make her mayor to try and give some personal connection to the city since he has none, but this is such awful way to go about it if this turns out to be what it is. It would be so forced. 




> Selling out is good and bad. It signifies an upward trend but also means DC isn’t producing enough/shops didn’t order enough. Ric and Jurgens dug a big hole, and shops used previous months as an order basis. A #1 might not have sold out because shops would have ordered more, but overall would have sold more, but because of how low the book was selling shops now just aren’t ordering enough.


I think Nightwing was selling okay again at the end of Jurgens run because of the Joker War tie in. That gave it a decent boost. They weren't great, but the numbers probably jumped up to Nighwing's more traditional baseline.

----------


## Claude

> Ugh, wrong Robin. But I get it’s a nod to Dixon’s train issue.


Eh, I like Damian - but we get quite a lot of Dick and Damian together, and his relationship with Tim has been comparatively forgotten. Especially for those years when Tim and Jason were basically joined at the hip in Batfamily crossovers.

----------


## Rac7d*

> Eh, I like Damian - but we get quite a lot of Dick and Damian together, and his relationship with Tim has been comparatively forgotten. Especially for those years when Tim and Jason were basically joined at the hip in Batfamily crossovers.


They had waffles

----------


## Frontier

> Eh, I like Damian - but we get quite a lot of Dick and Damian together, and his relationship with Tim has been comparatively forgotten. Especially for those years when Tim and Jason were basically joined at the hip in Batfamily crossovers.


Oh yeah, I remember during the Eternals they'd always pair Tim and Jason up (or Jason and Babs).

----------


## Godlike13

> I think Nightwing was selling okay again at the end of Jurgens run because of the Joker War tie in. That gave it a decent boost. They weren't great, but the numbers probably jumped up to Nighwing's more traditional baseline.


Unfortunately we got a couple more months of Jurgens after Joker War to deflate the tie in boost. Which only last one or two months before settling back to where they were.




> Eh, I like Damian - but we get quite a lot of Dick and Damian together, and his relationship with Tim has been comparatively forgotten. Especially for those years when Tim and Jason were basically joined at the hip in Batfamily crossovers.


Cause there is an actual dynamic there. Compared to him and Tim, where mostly it’s just Dick shilling telling readers how wonderful Tim is. Yawn. Let it be forgotten. There’s no meat there. Its your awesome, no your awesome.

----------


## Robotman

I’ve really loved the two Taylor issues so far. I hope that he builds up Dick’s rogues gallery. All the villains Dixon created for Nightwing have been forgotten and writers usually just have him go up against Batman villains. Hopefully this Heartless guy will be interesting. Had a pretty shocking debut that’s for sure.

----------


## Darkcrusade25

Eh, hard to call Dick the big brother for all Robins if he doesn't have substantial interactions with them besides Damian. Hopefully we'll get a Nightwing - Red Hood meeting too.

----------


## Rakiduam

> Cause there is an actual dynamic there. Compared to him and Tim, where mostly it’s just Dick shilling telling readers how wonderful Tim is. Yawn. Let it be forgotten. There’s no meat there. Its your awesome, no your awesome.


It's the same dynamic he has with Barbara and you people seem to be OK with that.

I hate this run, I don't see the value on keep hammering the past, they should be able to offer something more than nostalgy. And no, a secret half sister it's not something new.

----------


## Godlike13

> Eh, hard to call Dick the big brother for all Robins if he doesn't have substantial interactions with them besides Damian. Hopefully we'll get a Nightwing - Red Hood meeting too.


He’s the oldest. On that basis alone he’s the “big brother”. Sometimes it’s better to perpetuate the myth, then reveal the boring truth. It’s not like Dick hasn’t interacted with Tim or Jason that much recently. They just don’t stand out.  




> It's the same dynamic he has with Barbara and you people seem to be OK with that.


Maybe, it wasn’t for the sexual chemistry and flirtatious repartee.

----------


## lilyrose

Are Dick and Babs going to be a couple in Tom Taylor's run?

----------


## Avi

> Nightwing #80 sneak peak:


Full nostalgia mood, huh?

Is that Dick's wallet?

I'm not the biggest Tim fan, but as others have said Tim and Dick have had no dynamic since the New 52 started. I prefer him over Babs, honestly. For now. But they are both not the supporting cast I want to see 

I would hope that Dick appears in Damian's title first if only by proxy through talk. Damian is the one with Dick's villains after all. 

Not that I _expect_ it. The last time Dick substentialy featured in one of Damian's books was BM and Robin. And it feels as if Damian's and his time as Dynamic Duo are ignored more and more.

----------


## Robanker

> Nightwing #80 sneak peak:


My boys! I missed these two!

----------


## Restingvoice

> Are Dick and Babs going to be a couple in Tom Taylor's run?


He only said "it's only the first issue" when asked why Dick and Babs are so casual

or something like that

----------


## Claude

> Hes the oldest. On that basis alone hes the big brother. Sometimes its better to perpetuate the myth, then reveal the boring truth.


Nah, you have to put the work in. If you want "Dick is an inspirational figure/like an older brother/incredibly close with Barbara" to be things - and I get that some people don't - then you have to actually *show* those things. Yeah, Taylor's maybe repeating too many 90s beats in these early issues for my taste right now - but it's better than, frankly, everything prior to these issues relying on vague, semi in-continuity dynamics from decades ago and treating them as if they were still in place despite all evidence. 

The "returning to Gotham" issue of Grayson is amazing, for instance - but it's based on relationships that hadn't existed on page in continuity prior to that issue. 




> Its not like Dick hasnt interacted with Tim or Jason that much recently. They just dont stand out.  
> .


Have they? When did Tim and Dick last have a conversation - wasn't there one issue of Grayson where they're on the phone, and that's about it? 

(Ric Grayson under Jurgens might have had them meeting up for coffee every week for all I know - I wasn't reading.)

----------


## Rakiduam

> Are Dick and Babs going to be a couple in Tom Taylor's run?


Why else would be she there? All that sets her appart is the sexual chemistry and flirtatious repartee, apparently.

----------


## Fergus

> Nah, you have to put the work in. If you want "Dick is an inspirational figure/like an older brother/incredibly close with Barbara" to be things - and I get that some people don't - then you have to actually *show* those things. Yeah, Taylor's maybe repeating too many 90s beats in these early issues for my taste right now - but it's better than, frankly, everything prior to these issues relying on vague, semi in-continuity dynamics from decades ago and treating them as if they were still in place despite all evidence. 
> 
> The "returning to Gotham" issue of Grayson is amazing, for instance - but it's based on relationships that hadn't existed on page in continuity prior to that issue. 
> 
> 
> 
> Have they? When did Tim and Dick last have a conversation - wasn't there one issue of Grayson where they're on the phone, and that's about it? 
> 
> (Ric Grayson under Jurgens might have had them meeting up for coffee every week for all I know - I wasn't reading.)


I believe Tim and Dick interacted recently in The Robin 80th special, Gotham knights and Joker War [I think, can't quite recall what happened in joker war]

----------


## Fergus

> Full nostalgia mood, huh?
> 
> Is that Dick's wallet?
> 
> I'm not the biggest Tim fan, but as others have said Tim and Dick have had no dynamic since the New 52 started. I prefer him over Babs, honestly. For now. But they are both not the supporting cast I want to see 
> 
> I would hope that Dick appears in Damian's title first if only by proxy through talk. Damian is the one with Dick's villains after all. 
> 
> Not that I _expect_ it. The last time Dick substentialy featured in one of Damian's books was BM and Robin. *And it feels as if Damian's and his time as Dynamic Duo are ignored more and more*.



Which is a real shame. Damian is Robin because of Dick.

Not to mention they have such a great dynamic + Dick is a positive influence on the kid.

----------


## Frontier

> Why else would be she there? All that sets her appart is the sexual chemistry and flirtatious repartee, apparently.


Well, it's part of their dynamic. 



> Which is a real shame. Damian is Robin because of Dick.
> 
> Not to mention they have such a great dynamic + Dick is a positive influence on the kid.


I'm sure we'll get to Damian in due time.

----------


## Restingvoice

Bleeding Cool spoiled Titans Academy #2 and revealed the current status of Dick's romantic relationship

I mean you pretty much know what it is by the title so I'm not marking it.

Dick _is_ dating Starfire and tried to convince her that partnering with Babs in Bludhaven is just work. She doesn't believe it.

----------


## Avi

> Bleeding Cool spoiled Titans Academy #2 and revealed the current status of Dick's romantic relationship
> 
> I mean you pretty much know what it is by the title so I'm not marking it.
> 
> Dick _is_ dating Starfire and tried to convince her that partnering with Babs in Bludhaven is just work. She doesn't believe it.


Urgh. What the heck are they doing? Can't they just let poor Dick be single? Or just put him into a poly relationship already.

----------


## Frontier

> Bleeding Cool spoiled Titans Academy #2 and revealed the current status of Dick's romantic relationship
> 
> I mean you pretty much know what it is by the title so I'm not marking it.
> 
> Dick _is_ dating Starfire and tried to convince her that partnering with Babs in Bludhaven is just work. She doesn't believe it.


Wow. Can't believe they gave Kory a win. 

I foresee this ending well...

----------


## Rac7d*

> Wow. Can't believe they gave Kory a win. 
> 
> I foresee this ending well...


A win how, not only is Dick being made to be a dog but since Kory knows about barbra she is culpable as well. 
20 years and this is the most she can have. Im not worried, because i know he will choose one and it wont be starfire, were gonna continue to see it be dick in babs in several bat books making TA look like it doesnt matter

----------


## Restingvoice

> A win how, not only is Dick being made to be a dog but since Kory knows about barbra she is culpable as well.


He's not dating Babs

Yet

----------


## Rakiduam

It's really the 90´s all over again. Wonderful! 




> A win how, not only is Dick being made to be a dog but since Kory knows about barbra she is culpable as well. 
> 20 years and this is the most she can have. Im not worried, because i know he will choose one and it wont be starfire, were gonna continue to see it be dick in babs in several bat books making TA look like it doesnt matter


Guilty of what? 

If you like Nightwing in any form you should be worried, two years with Ric and now a love triangle is the most we can have. Nothing is happening for Nightwing on his own book, nothing is happening for him (or anybody elese really) in Teen Titans. 

How is thow is that he is still stuck on the love triangle of hell, and you think chosing Babs (or Kori) is a good thing? For either of them?! A relationship with Barbara was the worse thing that happened to Dick,he is never going to be alowed to be more that Bat-little because only what happens on the bat books matter, so damn limited.

----------


## Godlike13

> He's not dating Babs
> 
> Yet


Doesn’t seem he’s necessarily dating Starfire either.

----------


## DragonPiece

> Doesn’t seem he’s necessarily dating Starfire either.


weren't they planning a date at the end of the first issue? I'd say they are definitly more a couple than him and babs are right now.

Either way, I doubt Taylor will refrence any of this. He's probably going to do a slow burn romance with Barbra. I imagine the stuff with Dick and Kory will resolve itself in titans academy.

----------


## Godlike13

> weren't they planning a date at the end of the first issue? I'd say they are definitly more a couple than him and babs are right now.
> 
> Either way, I doubt Taylor will refrence any of this. He's probably going to do a slow burn romance with Barbra. I imagine the stuff with Dick and Kory will resolve itself in titans academy.


That "date" though doesn't seem to be more then a casual bang.

----------


## Robanker

> Wow. Can't believe they gave Kory a win. 
> 
> I foresee this ending well...


Is this a win? Or is this a longform way of saying "he picks Barbara in the end?!"

The shipping war will never end. I promise you that. We'll be listening to our grandkids whining about the other side well into our twilight years.

----------


## Rac7d*

> weren't they planning a date at the end of the first issue? I'd say they are definitly more a couple than him and babs are right now.
> 
> Either way, I doubt Taylor will refrence any of this. He's probably going to do a slow burn romance with Barbra. I imagine the stuff with Dick and Kory will resolve itself in titans academy.


Happy birth dick, its so great to be working with you
now let me give you your present.............
so you will be checking in on bludhaven...... with babs

why do they do this to her, why

----------


## Rac7d*

> That "date" though doesn't seem to be more then a casual bang.


basicly bringing her back to her Outlaws sexpot thing
i thought we were done with that

----------


## Robotman

So he and Babs got “married” at the end of Death Metal and then they have him dating Starfire?

----------


## DragonPiece

> That "date" though doesn't seem to be more then a casual bang.


All we have a few panels so far of the issue, those could be taken out of context. Though I do doubt a book with that many cast members has time for a date scene..

----------


## Drako

> So he and Babs got “married” at the end of Death Metal and then they have him dating Starfire?


They were "married" just for that time until the final battle. It was even said in the book.

Also, he is not dating Babs in the Nightwing book, at least not yet.

----------


## Frontier

> Is this a win? Or is this a longform way of saying "he picks Barbara in the end?!"
> 
> The shipping war will never end. I promise you that. We'll be listening to our grandkids whining about the other side well into our twilight years.


At least it's something instead of pretending Kory was never important to Dick. 



> basicly bringing her back to her Outlaws sexpot thing
> i thought we were done with that


Dressing herself after a night together with Dick doesn't make her a sexpot because it doesn't seem like a casual fling otherwise she wouldn't be concerned about Barbara and Dick wouldn't feel the need to clarify that there's nothing going on there.

----------


## Godlike13

Dick’s not the one they had forget. Anyway it doesn’t seem Starfire is in a position to actually object to anything beyond showing concern. I agree it they aren’t bringing back the sex pot, but the perpetually waiting for him Starfire we’ve seen before. Which honestly isn’t much better. But if we are to take Future State as a prelude, things are probably going to turn rather tempestuous between them.

----------


## Robanker

> So he and Babs got married at the end of Death Metal and then they have him dating Starfire?


The end of the book reboots to before issue 1, so all of Death Metal didn't actually happen except for the epilogue (restructuring the multiverse, Diana ascending).

For all intents and purposes, only about 5 pages matter. Dick and Barbara's "marriage" did not.

----------


## Avi

I just think it's lame to start this fake drama when TTA could focus on other things and show Kory and Dick have a strong relationship differently. Especially without bringing Barbara into this. This isn't great for DickKory fans either.

But, hey, maybe they'll talk about Dick's comic non-existent Red X identity, which will need loads of page time to be explained well. Page time TTA doesn't have by nature of focusing on so many characters.

And maybe there'll be more info about why and how Dick took in the Bat Pack, who have all but made an edgy joke about Dick, in July.

----------


## Darkcrusade25

I just hope none of this crosses over to Taylor's run. No need to have this Titans mess be even called out in that book.

----------


## Restingvoice

> That "date" though doesn't seem to be more then a casual bang.


if it's just casual bang he won't need to assure Kori that Babs is just work 

Technically I think they just started alongside the Academy opening, so it's not super serious yet, this is their first bang in a while, but it's not without some actual feelings either




> Is this a win? Or is this a longform way of saying "he picks Barbara in the end?!"


This is what I was thinking, but not exactly. Tim and Tom are going to continue what they each are going to do without much concern about what the others are doing beyond simple acknowledgement, but even if we look at it as a shared universe, since Tom's story is slower, that gives the chance to Tim to do Dick Kori without much problem. 

I imagine out of all the slow burn plot in Taylor's Nightwing, Dick Babs are going to be the slowest.




> At least it's something instead of pretending Kory was never important to Dick. 
> 
> Dressing herself after a night together with Dick doesn't make her a sexpot because it doesn't seem like a casual fling otherwise she wouldn't be concerned about Barbara and Dick wouldn't feel the need to clarify that there's nothing going on there.


Right? I actually kinda like this, because they're actually handling it and so far it fits what's happening in both books. Dick is casually dating Kori, but he's not forgetting how much Barbara means to him, but he's not two-timing both.

It's not just complete erasure like Post Crisis Dick saying he never loves Kori, or New 52 not doing anything with either, or Rebirth saying Kori is just a college fling. I'm not saying it will be the most sensitive, much less satisfying, but it's better than the previous portrayals.

Also whatever endgame they're doing by the time the series end, it will be undone again by the time the next team roll out, so I'm just gonna enjoy the drama as long as it can and as long no one is getting character assassinated, which so far, they don't.

----------


## Godlike13

> if it's just casual bang he won't need to assure Kori that Babs is just work 
> 
> Technically I think they just started alongside the Academy opening, so it's not super serious yet, this is their first bang in a while, but it's not without some actual feelings either.


He didn't actually need to assure her though. He was just making Kory feel better. She seem to dejectedly accept things as soon as he said Babs. She doesn't seem to to be in a position to actually object to anything though. Quite frankly, if they were dating, Dick having to spend more time at Bludhaven wouldn't be big deal to a girlfriend that could fly.

----------


## DragonPiece

> I just hope none of this crosses over to Taylor's run. No need to have this Titans mess be even called out in that book.


I don't see it happening. The book is so rooted in it's own story, I can't imagine any need or Tom to reference it.

----------


## WonderNight

Well I'll just say that of the 2 I'm going with the one that doesn't tie dick down to batman.

----------


## HsssH

Didn't read anything from Death Metal so I found it rather funny that Dick/Babs married there, but it didn't matter. What the fuck Snyder, what the fuck.




> Well I'll just say that of the 2 I'm going with the one that doesn't tie dick down to batman.


100% this.

----------


## Frontier

> I just hope none of this crosses over to Taylor's run. No need to have this Titans mess be even called out in that book.


I think an acknowledgement would be nice enough. 

(I kind of wonder if Taylor cares about Kory, come to think of it). 



> He didn't actually need to assure her though. He was just making Kory feel better. She seem to dejectedly accept things as soon as he said Babs. She doesn't seem to to be in a position to actually object to anything though. Quite frankly, if they were dating, Dick having to spend more time at Bludhaven wouldn't be big deal to a girlfriend that could fly.


I dunno, it doesn't read to me as two people uninvolved otherwise the dialogue would be very different or just more clear.

----------


## Grayson - The Dark Heir

> Didn't read anything from Death Metal so I found it rather funny that Dick/Babs married there, but it didn't matter. What the fuck Snyder, what the fuck.


It wasn't Snyder who wrote the actual marriage, not sure if he was involved with the idea at all, but as someone who did read it: it was so bad I honestly wonder if the writer even likes the characters. Like, I don't even just mean Dick, but even Babs gets written terribly and I just have to wonder how you write a relationship so poorly without doing it on purpose lol, which is an issue given she was the writer of the Batgirl book at the time iirc. She also had Babs tell off Dick in a Batgirl issue, which was weird because she again made it seem like Babs is just a terrible person. It made the "will-they, won't-they" nonsense of the New 52 seem decent.

All I'm gonna say on this is at least there seems to be a slightly more mature approach to Dick's relationships with Babs and Kori. It absolutely sucks when Dick's relationship with Kory is erased or diminished just to justify his relationship with Babs. If the intention is to actually build up a meaningful relationship between Dick and Babs for the first time in a decade or more, while also reestablishing that Kory matters to Dick, then I can appreciate that (as long as that doesn't mean Kory herself is mistreated as a character). If the opposite happens, I'd be ecstatic. If neither happens, I'll just be upset so I guess I'll have to wait and see where this is going lol.

----------


## Superboy-Prime

> If neither happens, I'll just be upset so I guess I'll have to wait and see where this is going lol.


I'll tell you where this is going: No matter what, one nerd fanbase will war against the other. I've foreseen it.

----------


## Badou

I don't really understand why everyone is upset. This has been the same status quo since like 2006. Dick and Barbara just dance around each other without committing with the constant "will they/won't they" drama mixed in, and then Dick occasionally hooks up with Starfire. Nothing has changed. Dick and Starfire haven't interacted much given this is the first time they have been in the same book since before the New 52. She was off running around with Jason and hooking up with Roy in Outlaws, had her solo for a bit, then was stuck on Damian's Teen Titans, and then was out in space for all of Rebirth when Dick was put on a team book in Titans for the first time since the New 52, but despite that they still had occasionally hooked up while Dick and Babs were dancing around each other like always. Nothing's changed. 

The thing that bothered me was the Titans book bringing up Bludhaven. Why is it only Dick that gets that kind of treatment? When Bruce is in the JL he doesn't have an Alfred or someone contact him about Gotham to remind him about it. Same with a Superman and Metropolis. It just feels like they are using Bludhaven as this excuse to not have Dick be able to do things because he has commitments to Bludhaven, but this doesn't get brought up with other heroes that have the same kind of commitments. Even when a Dick was in Gotham or somewhere it was always "I have to go check on Bludhaven" whenever they wanted to write him out of something, which was annoying.

----------


## Frontier

> I don't really understand why everyone is upset. This has been the same status quo since like 2006. Dick and Barbara just dance around each other without committing with the constant "will they/won't they" drama mixed in, and then Dick occasionally hooks up with Starfire. Nothing has changed. Dick and Starfire haven't interacted much given this is the first time they have been in the same book since before the New 52. She was off running around with Jason and hooking up with Roy in Outlaws, had her solo for a bit, then was stuck on Damian's Teen Titans, and then was out in space for all of Rebirth when Dick was put on a team book in Titans for the first time since the New 52, but despite that they still had occasionally hooked up while Dick and Babs were dancing around each other like always. Nothing's changed. 
> 
> The thing that bothered me was the Titans book bringing up Bludhaven. Why is it only Dick that gets that kind of treatment? When Bruce is in the JL he doesn't have an Alfred or someone contact him about Gotham to remind him about it. Same with a Superman and Metropolis. It just feels like they are using Bludhaven as this excuse to not have Dick be able to do things because he has commitments to Bludhaven, but this doesn't get brought up with other heroes that have the same kind of commitments. Even when a Dick was in Gotham or somewhere it was always "I have to go check on Bludhaven" whenever they wanted to write him out of something, which was annoying.


I'm not upset. I'm happy to see Dick and Kori are lovers again. 

I'd be upset if this is to lead into another round of "Dick loves Babs more than he loves Kori" or Kori's constantly worried about him going back to Babs, but hopefully there's more to it than that.

----------


## WonderNight

Yeah nightwing seems to be in full nostalgia mode right now, which is why I'm not really feeling this run right now outside of the art. It just feels like nightwing's greatest hits right now and a been there done that feel.

----------


## Rac7d*

> Well I'll just say that of the 2 I'm going with the one that doesn't tie dick down to batman.


Batman does that himself, where as Oracle does contract work for the Titans

----------


## Rakiduam

> I don't really understand why everyone is upset. This has been the same status quo since like 2006. Dick and Barbara just dance around each other without committing with the constant "will they/won't they" drama mixed in, and then Dick occasionally hooks up with Starfire. Nothing has changed. Dick and Starfire haven't interacted much given this is the first time they have been in the same book since before the New 52. She was off running around with Jason and hooking up with Roy in Outlaws, had her solo for a bit, then was stuck on Damian's Teen Titans, and then was out in space for all of Rebirth when Dick was put on a team book in Titans for the first time since the New 52, but despite that they still had occasionally hooked up while Dick and Babs were dancing around each other like always. Nothing's changed. 
> 
> The thing that bothered me was the Titans book bringing up Bludhaven. Why is it only Dick that gets that kind of treatment? When Bruce is in the JL he doesn't have an Alfred or someone contact him about Gotham to remind him about it. Same with a Superman and Metropolis. It just feels like they are using Bludhaven as this excuse to not have Dick be able to do things because he has commitments to Bludhaven, but this doesn't get brought up with other heroes that have the same kind of commitments. Even when a Dick was in Gotham or somewhere it was always "I have to go check on Bludhaven" whenever they wanted to write him out of something, which was annoying.


That's what bothers me, the stagnation. I don't get why anyone would want this to keep going, much less dedicate a book to repetition.
You would think that creative people would be more ambitious.




> Batman does that himself, where as Oracle does contract work for the Titans


Really? What a waste of moneyof money when Cyborg exist.

----------


## WonderNight

> Batman does that himself, where as Oracle does contract work for the Titans


Holy reach Batman! LOL Barbara is as bat centric as it gets I mean come on.

----------


## Godlike13

> The thing that bothered me was the Titans book bringing up Bludhaven. Why is it only Dick that gets that kind of treatment? When Bruce is in the JL he doesn't have an Alfred or someone contact him about Gotham to remind him about it. Same with a Superman and Metropolis. It just feels like they are using Bludhaven as this excuse to not have Dick be able to do things because he has commitments to Bludhaven, but this doesn't get brought up with other heroes that have the same kind of commitments. Even when a Dick was in Gotham or somewhere it was always "I have to go check on Bludhaven" whenever they wanted to write him out of something, which was annoying.


That’s a good point.

----------


## Avi

Jamal Campbell's Black & White story just moved me to tears. What a nice stream of consciousness.




> The thing that bothered me was the Titans book bringing up Bludhaven. Why is it only Dick that gets that kind of treatment? When Bruce is in the JL he doesn't have an Alfred or someone contact him about Gotham to remind him about it. Same with a Superman and Metropolis. It just feels like they are using Bludhaven as this excuse to not have Dick be able to do things because he has commitments to Bludhaven, but this doesn't get brought up with other heroes that have the same kind of commitments. Even when a Dick was in Gotham or somewhere it was always "I have to go check on Bludhaven" whenever they wanted to write him out of something, which was annoying.


You hit the nail on the head.

----------


## Drako

> Jamal Campbell's Black & White story just moved me to tears. What a nice stream of consciousness.


Yeah, that was great. Incredible art too.

----------


## Korath

> Yeah, that was great. Incredible art too.


Yeah. Campbel's one one the best up and coming artists that DC has working for them right now. He killed it on Naomi, he is killing it on Far Sector and while I definitvely want him back on Naomi for the Season 2, I also want him to have a seminal work at DC, kind of like Kingdom Come has been for Alex Ross, you know ?

----------


## Journey

I just read Titans Academy yo Dick is such a fuck boi.

----------


## Superboy-Prime

> I just read Titans Academy yo Dick is such a fuck boi.


I hate seeing Dick ruining the Nightwing name. He didn't even ask Van-Zee for permission to become Nightwing, he just took his identity and started being a player.

----------


## prepmaster

> I just read Titans Academy yo Dick is such a fuck boi.


Tom King has the right idea of having KGB shot Nightwing in the head.

----------


## sifighter

Me who liked Teen Titans Academy #2

----------


## Korath

> Me who liked Teen Titans Academy #2


I really liked it too !

----------


## Superboy-Prime

> I really liked it too !


Yeah, I loved it. Dick is a dog! Woof woof!

----------


## Frontier

Why are we assuming Dick is a dog?

*spoilers:*
Unless he's legitimately two-timing, sleeping with Kory and working professionally with Babs (so long as that sticks) doesn't make him a dog.
*end of spoilers*

----------


## Superboy-Prime

> Why are we assuming Dick is a dog?
> 
> *spoilers:*
> Unless he's legitimately two-timing, sleeping with Kory and working professionally with Babs (so long as that sticks) doesn't make him a dog.
> *end of spoilers*


Aw, Frontier, I was just joking. Unless he cheats again, I think Dick is a very respectable guy. Starfire deserves better, though.

----------


## K. Jones

> I just read Titans Academy yo Dick is such a fuck boi.


I'm not going to lie ... this situation becoming diagetic and not just a kind of running gag for us long-term Grayson readers actually makes him more relatable to me and my personal ongoing real life disfunctions, so while the long-term reader in me is like "oh wow they're just going to address it now, this might not bode well for the kind of editorial over-reach that will constantly contradict itself", the person who fell into a ... I want to say balancing act, but that implies things stayed balanced ... on-again, off-again, on-again, parallel on-again, off-again, parallel co-worker thing, especially in high-stress jobs scenario is like "huh I wonder how accurate this will be when it plays out?"

Like if it ends with two women slapping Dick either separately or together, in the face for being a dog (when he's not really that personality-wise) it'll be a missed opportunity for something slightly more realistic of a downer ... which is just that because he's split and over-stretched in jobs (as well as title appearances) they'll both, knowing full-well about one another's involvement, just move on to more stable things and Dick will be a sad boi and get back together with his most reliably unstable friend-with-benefits, Helena.

It's like the cycle of Batman alienating his friends ... Dick's personal circle he can never escape is "I'm back with Babs ... screwed up ... wait no, back with Kory ... screwed up or space adventure messed it up ... oh no I screwed up both ... rebound with new person who will only be in title as long as one writer writes it ... I ran into Helena on patrol and one thing led to another again ..."

It's like he works in the restaurant industry. I guess being Nightwing is something of a service job.

----------


## Jackalope89

I hate love triangles. Have Mar'i Grayson be a thing, then be done with this whole back and forth. So annoying.

For Red X; Simple.

----------


## Claude

Yeah, liked Titans Academy - Sheridan is doing good job of balancing the characters I'm interested in with new ones and everyone has a good voice. Plus, there's a bit where a lesser writer would have absolutely shown Dick getting his arse kicked to show how tough someone else was, and Sheridan resisted the urge.

----------


## Avi

Still not a fan of how this is coming to be. And mentioning Barbara as a foil immediately? Nope. Not my thing.

It also seems to me that Sheridan really, really wants to write a Bat title instead and that is not how I like the Titans.

It is pretty light-hearted, though, I'll give it that, and there are some nice concepts.

Dick getting caught by Bolt was pretty amusing.




> I'm not going to lie ... this situation becoming diagetic and not just a kind of running gag for us long-term Grayson readers actually makes him more relatable to me and my personal ongoing real life disfunctions, so while the long-term reader in me is like "oh wow they're just going to address it now, this might not bode well for the kind of editorial over-reach that will constantly contradict itself", the person who fell into a ... I want to say balancing act, but that implies things stayed balanced ... on-again, off-again, on-again, parallel on-again, off-again, parallel co-worker thing, especially in high-stress jobs scenario is like "huh I wonder how accurate this will be when it plays out?"
> 
> Like if it ends with two women slapping Dick either separately or together, in the face for being a dog (when he's not really that personality-wise) it'll be a missed opportunity for something slightly more realistic of a downer ... which is just that because he's split and over-stretched in jobs (as well as title appearances) they'll both, knowing full-well about one another's involvement, just move on to more stable things and Dick will be a sad boi and get back together with his most reliably unstable friend-with-benefits, Helena.
> 
> It's like the cycle of Batman alienating his friends ... Dick's personal circle he can never escape is "I'm back with Babs ... screwed up ... wait no, back with Kory ... screwed up or space adventure messed it up ... oh no I screwed up both ... rebound with new person who will only be in title as long as one writer writes it ... I ran into Helena on patrol and one thing led to another again ..."
> 
> It's like he works in the restaurant industry. *I guess being Nightwing is something of a service job.*


I'd say that's a fact.

----------


## sifighter

Yeah I like that Teen Titans Academy is very light hearted, I appreciate just a fun comic with characters I like from time to time after some rough runs.

----------


## Eto

So....uuh 
Dick is  now in a polygamous relationship or what?
wth man.... these writers nowadays smh. First Marvel now DC...

----------


## Journey

> So....uuh 
> Dick is  now in a polygamous relationship or what?
> wth man.... these writers nowadays smh. First Marvel now DC...


No he's just a fuck boi nothing wrong with it I mean he got shot in the head & is living his best life I ain't mad but I'm a call a spade a spade.

----------


## Eto

> No he's just a fuck boi nothing wrong with it I mean he got shot in the head & is living his best life I ain't mad but I'm a call a spade a spade.


Personally I think there's something wrong with that, but fair enough I guess.

----------


## Frontier

> So....uuh 
> Dick is  now in a polygamous relationship or what?
> wth man.... these writers nowadays smh. First Marvel now DC...


(He's not dating Babs).

----------


## Grayson - The Dark Heir

Leave it to DC fans to take something not on the page and make it an issue I guess lol, but I can't blame anyone considering this is DC we're talking about. They've put far worse onto the page.

Anyways, today's been a really good comics day, especially for Dick. Haven't read previous pages so no idea if everyone's aware of this yet, but Dick's appears pretty prominently in Teen Titans Academy (if you somehow didn't know about this, just lol), Batman: Black & White (probably been brought up already), and Batman/Superman (as Robin to a very Golden Age-esque Batman alongside a GA-esque Clark and Lois).

I'm still really enjoying TTA, it's doing _new_ things, and it's still exciting to see. I already love Alinta and Matt now, and it was nice to see more of Vic. If the next issues are going to be somewhat slow burns, building up several students using a classic Titan as a focal point, I'm game. Granted, Red X stuff is seemingly the actual _story_ here, but since I'm interested in that too it's working out well. Just wish this Suicide Squad stuff wasn't happening lol. Edit: I ended up making this sound like a general review instead of talking about Dick's role in it. I'm liking how he's being handled tbh, it's cute seeing his interaction with Alinta in this issue, and I'm not too pressed with the Kory stuff honestly. I want it to work out, and it seems like Dick wants that too, but who knows? We now Batman comes first, so if Taylor wants DickBabs, we'll get that and it'll definitely affect this book. But if that happens, oh well? Like, at least we're not pretending Dick and Kory getting close again wouldn't happen, because of course it would, so the fallout just needs to be handled well. I honestly care more about Dick and Vic actually getting to talk about something that isn't a world-ending threat, which hasn't happened in forever. The classic Titans don't need ground-breaking characterization, they just need small moments like this while the students get established and eventually developed.

Jamal Campbell really knows what makes Dick work, like this is quintessential Dick Grayson story now. Needs to be reprinted outside of this in some sort of Nightwing collection, just so it doesn't go forgotten. Probably better than any of the Robin stories in any of the Batman or Robin anniversary specials. If DC was ever looking for content to adapt as an animated short or even a live-action short, this is what they should be lookin at, but they'd need to put their best people on it to make it work because the layouts and transitions are so slick, they really work best as a comic.

Batman/Superman was also pretty great because we get proper Dynamic Duo content from it, and the newest issue also gives us Dick fanboying over Superman and good Dick and Lois interactions. The best way to describe this book is it's taking Silver Age craziness, with Golden Age iconography, and modern day story sensibilities. And it works, which is the best part. If you're not reading this book, you'll want to get on it right away imo, start with #16.

----------


## Ascended

> So....uuh 
> Dick is  now in a polygamous relationship or what?
> wth man.... these writers nowadays smh. First Marvel now DC...


.....

You know what? Screw it. That's our answer. I know you didn't mean it this way, but.....I could get behind that.

I abhor this love triangle. And I really don't like Dick with Babs at all, I feel like they bring out the worst in each other. And at this point I'd rather Dick and Kori both just move the f*ck on, act like professionals, be friends, and stop falling into bed together. Y'all know I ship me some Powerwing, first and foremost when it comes to Dick's love life. But DC is never going to let this sh*t go, and we're way past the point of diminishing returns already.

So if the love triangle is unsustainable and awful, but DC won't untangle these three, then let's just make it official and move on with our lives. 

Even discounting the early New52 crap where they went utterly overboard, I can see Kori in a poly relationship, it's well established that Tamaraneans think differently about love and sex than humans. And while I've never really seen this in his character, some people think Dick's freak flag flies a little differently than the hetero-normal. Historically, there's precedence for Dick preferring monogamous relationships over flings, but he's had more than his fair share of botty calls too. And it's Babs and Kori, so I really don't feel like you'd have to work hard convincing him to give this a chance. I can't imagine Babs ever being down for it though, that woman is straight as a board. But I like Babs a lot less than I love Nightwing so I'm willing to break her character if it means ending this idiot triangle.

So sure. As long as DC wrote it honestly and didn't treat it like some idiot high school fantasy, fine. It'd certainly be an interesting new take on the dynamic at least. And they can all break up and call it an experiment they'll never speak of again if it doesn't work out.

----------


## Konja7

> Even discounting the early New52 crap where they went utterly overboard, I can see Kori in a poly relationship, it's well established that Tamaraneans think differently about love and sex than humans. And while I've never really seen this in his character, some people think Dick's freak flag flies a little differently than the hetero-normal. Historically, there's precedence for Dick preferring monogamous relationships over flings, but he's had more than his fair share of botty calls too. And it's Babs and Kori, so I really don't feel like you'd have to work hard convincing him to give this a chance. I can't imagine Babs ever being down for it though, that woman is straight as a board. But I like Babs a lot less than I love Nightwing so I'm willing to break her character if it means ending this idiot triangle.


Well, Dick could be straight as a board and still "accept" a lesbian relationship in their polygamous relationship.

That said, we need to accept that DC has decided to "play" with the love triangle. So Dick's going to end up looking really bad.

They won't change Barbara expectatives on a relationship to Dick's convenience.

----------


## Godlike13

Dick and Starfire are likely headed for a fallout. I don’t think they are playing with a triangle but adding fuel to an eventual blow out between Dick and Star

----------


## Restingvoice

> Leave it to DC fans to take something not on the page and make it an issue I guess lol, but I can't blame anyone considering this is DC we're talking about. They've put far worse onto the page.


Yea I dropped by yesterday to check the replies after the last time I post and just left XD

I get getting tired of love tri, but some of the answers... where did that come from

----------


## SiegePerilous02

> Even discounting the early New52 crap where they went utterly overboard, I can see Kori in a poly relationship, it's well established that Tamaraneans think differently about love and sex than humans. And while I've never really seen this in his character, some people think Dick's freak flag flies a little differently than the hetero-normal. Historically, there's precedence for Dick preferring monogamous relationships over flings, but he's had more than his fair share of botty calls too. And it's Babs and Kori, so I really don't feel like you'd have to work hard convincing him to give this a chance. *I can't imagine Babs ever being down for it though, that woman is straight as a board.* But I like Babs a lot less than I love Nightwing so I'm willing to break her character if it means ending this idiot triangle.


I think there is too much subtext between her and Black Canary, as well as Katarina Armstrong, for this to really be the case :Stick Out Tongue: . Not to mention her and Kara taking their roles as distaff counterparts to Clark and Bruce very seriously in that regard lol. 

A lot of fans think Dick should be bi, but Babs makes just as much sense, if not more so.

----------


## Superboy-Prime

> I think there is too much subtext between her and Black Canary, as well as Katarina Armstrong, for this to really be the case. Not to mention her and Kara taking their roles as distaff counterparts to Clark and Bruce very seriously in that regard lol. 
> 
> A lot of fans think Dick should be bi, but Babs makes just as much sense, if not more so.


Yeah, they should bring in Bendis to write it.

----------


## John Venus

> I think there is too much subtext between her and Black Canary, as well as Katarina Armstrong, for this to really be the case. Not to mention her and Kara taking their roles as distaff counterparts to Clark and Bruce very seriously in that regard lol. 
> 
> A lot of fans think Dick should be bi, but Babs makes just as much sense, if not more so.


Yeah but I don't think Babs is the type who likes to share.

----------


## Frontier

I wonder if Babs still resents Kory.

----------


## WonderNight

> Well, Dick could be straight as a board and still "accept" a lesbian relationship in their polygamous relationship.
> 
> That said, we need to accept that DC has decided to "play" with the love triangle. So Dick's going to end up looking really bad.
> 
> They won't change Barbara expectatives on a relationship to Dick's convenience.


It won't happen but babs and kory don't have to be together just be ok with sharing dick together.

----------


## SiegePerilous02

> Yeah, they should bring in Bendis to write it.


Nah, probably Gail Simone since she's the one who planted a lot of the subtext. 




> Yeah but I don't think Babs is the type who likes to share.


Yeah, I think this would be the actual hurdle rather than Kory being another woman.

----------


## Superboy-Prime

> Nah, probably Gail Simone since she's the one who planted a lot of the subtext.


No, Bendis has experience with this kind of thing.

----------


## Rac7d*

> Nah, probably Gail Simone since she's the one who planted a lot of the subtext. 
> 
> 
> 
> Yeah, I think this would be the actual hurdle rather than Kory being another woman.


 Kory has been show willing to be in a poly relationship 
Dick said no then left her remember

----------


## Ascended

> I think there is too much subtext between her and Black Canary, as well as Katarina Armstrong, for this to really be the case. Not to mention her and Kara taking their roles as distaff counterparts to Clark and Bruce very seriously in that regard lol. 
> 
> A lot of fans think Dick should be bi, but Babs makes just as much sense, if not more so.


I forgot about the Canary thing. I never really saw Babs' dynamic with Dinah that way, a lot of people did...but to me that always felt like the "two girls are friends? Secret lesbians!" thing you see in fandom all the time. And a lot of folks do say Dick should be bi, though there's nothing in the comics that supports that at all as far as I know, and it's just fanwanking.  :Stick Out Tongue:  He even seems to prefer (historically) standard relationships to one nighters, so the poly thing doesn't seem too plausible in his character.

And if left to no other solutions to get rid of the triangle, I'd break all of that continuity. Anything to make this end. 




> Yeah, they should bring in Bendis to write it.


Honestly, I'd be willing to take a look. Street levelers and relationship drama? It's kinda Bendis' thing, and his Superman was far better than I expected it to be, Naomi is a gods damn national treasure. I maybe wouldn't stick with it long, depending on how Bendis ran with it, but he'd definitely get a few issues to impress me.




> Yeah but I don't think Babs is the type who likes to share.


No, I don't think she is. 

Obviously the poly idea doesn't work for a ton of reasons, but I'd still take it over the triangle. If I had my way they'd all get over themselves and move on. But moving on apparently isn't in the cards (damn you DC) so I'll take a lateral movement over no movement at all.

If nothing else, it's new territory instead of repeating the same cursed storyline that ensures everyone involved looks horrible.

#PowerWing

----------


## SiegePerilous02

> I forgot about the Canary thing. I never really saw Babs' dynamic with Dinah that way, a lot of people did...*but to me that always felt like the "two girls are friends? Secret lesbians!" thing you see in fandom all the time.* And a lot of folks do say Dick should be bi, though there's nothing in the comics that supports that at all as far as I know, and it's just fanwanking.  He even seems to prefer (historically) standard relationships to one nighters, so the poly thing doesn't seem too plausible in his character.


Oh there is definitely a lot of that at play there. I personally ship Dick/Babs (though it's not very well written in recent years, but then I don't think many of DC's romances are, not just them) and view Babs and Dinah as friends. But there is some material where I can see how others view subtext and it wouldn't take much to build off of it, IMO. The reason it also has a following is perhaps down to still needing more consistent queer representation in general for characters, and outside of Dick, Babs doesn't have  a great list of suitors. If it's not Dick, it's going to be whatever other Bat-male they think they need to pass her to this week and most people don't seem overly enthusiastic about Jason Bard. So I can see "why not Dinah?" having a a big appeal compared to all of those.

----------


## Grayson - The Dark Heir

I think Superboy-Prime is talking about the Iceman thing when talking about Bendis. He definitely has experience when it comes to that kinda stuff, lmao.

A lot of people are pushing for a poly relationship on Twitter, almost for sure because Logan-Jean-Scott is a thing at Marvel from what I understand, and has been for a while now, so DC's been the one lagging behind (which to be fair, when it comes to X-Men vs. Titans stuff, they usually are). 

Now, if you were to go back to NTT, the one relationship closest to Logan-Jean-Scott is probably Kory-Dick-Rachel, but that's not quite something that'll work in 2021, I think. Of course, in hindsight, the idea of the comics building up to Dick, Babs, and Kory being a poly relationship right as Babs is getting introduced in the Titans show is hilarious. Babs being part of that relationship essentially means she's going to be joined to the Titans branding, which is arguably not great, but that kind of shift might also meant Dick (and Babs) are less connected to Batman branding. There's a lot of different ways this could go honestly, I'm all for it.




> Yea I dropped by yesterday to check the replies after the last time I post and just left XD
> 
> I get getting tired of love tri, but some of the answers... where did that come from


From what I've seen, seems to be a lot of people who are allergic to the idea of sex, for one reason or another, so having sex makes you a bad person in their eyes. There's also a massive misunderstanding from a lot of fans in that Babs being in the Nightwing book is essentially the same as them dating (which they definitely aren't, at least not right now), so Dick and Kory are like committing a crime lol. So there's a lot of getting upset about made-up problems.

There is potential set-up for a love triangle, but again like people have said here and other places, this is also the potential set-up for a polyamorous relationship, for the end of DickKory, for the end of Dickbabs, etc. Really, we just don't know what it means so it's just fans being afraid of what this means.

Speaking of, I've seen the idea that Dick and Vic talking about Barbara being the problem is a meta-commentary on the Bat-editors wading their way into the Titans book to do whatever their want with Dick, as is tradition at this point. I think that's a pretty funny way to call them out, so if true, I'd be a big fan of that lmao. "It's always Barbara," I think the line was, so just swap in "Bat office" for Barbara.

----------


## Eto

> (He's not dating Babs).


Yeah, but there's a lot of teasing in his book so I'd say we are getting there slowly but surely.

----------


## Eto

> .....
> 
> You know what? Screw it. That's our answer. I know you didn't mean it this way, but.....I could get behind that.
> 
> I abhor this love triangle. And I really don't like Dick with Babs at all, I feel like they bring out the worst in each other. And at this point I'd rather Dick and Kori both just move the f*ck on, act like professionals, be friends, and stop falling into bed together. Y'all know I ship me some Powerwing, first and foremost when it comes to Dick's love life. But DC is never going to let this sh*t go, and we're way past the point of diminishing returns already.
> 
> So if the love triangle is unsustainable and awful, but DC won't untangle these three, then let's just make it official and move on with our lives. 
> 
> Even discounting the early New52 crap where they went utterly overboard, I can see Kori in a poly relationship, it's well established that Tamaraneans think differently about love and sex than humans. And while I've never really seen this in his character, some people think Dick's freak flag flies a little differently than the hetero-normal. Historically, there's precedence for Dick preferring monogamous relationships over flings, but he's had more than his fair share of botty calls too. And it's Babs and Kori, so I really don't feel like you'd have to work hard convincing him to give this a chance. I can't imagine Babs ever being down for it though, that woman is straight as a board. But I like Babs a lot less than I love Nightwing so I'm willing to break her character if it means ending this idiot triangle.
> ...


True,  Tamaraneans are really casual about relationships lol.

I mainly know PG from JSA (1999-2011) run. Which comics would you recommend with her and Dick. I'm curious now!

----------


## Ascended

> True,  Tamaraneans are really casual about relationships lol.
> 
> I mainly know PG from JSA (1999-2011) run. Which comics would you recommend with her and Dick. I'm curious now!


I think it's less that Tamaraneans are casual about relationships and more that they're just more....flexible....in how they express attraction and love. Like, nothing about how Kori felt about Dick was casual, yknow? And "casual" isn't necessarily a poly thing; that's swingers, who like to share and just enjoy sex. Poly relationships are (can be) as emotionally serious as standard two-people relationships. We know Dick prefers relationships to one nighters and emotional investment to casual fun; a poly dynamic should be treated the same way.

And don't get me started on PowerWing.  :Big Grin:  I'm sure I've bored most of our regular posters with that ship far too often already! And you won't find a ton of interaction between Dick and Power Girl in the comics, they know each other and might say hi during a Crisis but generally move in very different social circles. However, I think they'd mix well from both a creative and commercial standpoint.

You'll see them talk a bit in James Robinson's JLA, just before the New52 reboot, and they're flirtatious and friendly and get along really well, but we're talking like.....a few pages of content, all told.

----------


## HsssH

> A lot of people are pushing for a poly relationship on Twitter, almost for sure because Logan-Jean-Scott is a thing at Marvel from what I understand, and has been for a while now, so DC's been the one lagging behind (which to be fair, when it comes to X-Men vs. Titans stuff, they usually are).


Lagging behind? Is there some competition going?  :Big Grin: 

As for Tamaraneans being more flexible, would anyone actually look at this that way? I mean sure, hardcores could say you know in issue X it was revealed they are ok with such things and so on, but to casual reader it would just look like some obscure comics lore that doesn't matter.

----------


## Avi

Some more Jamal Campbell art. 

He seems to like the... mono mask? Beak mask? No idea how to call it. And some other elements of the costume he used in the B&W story are already present as well.





Tweets: Nightwing | Zatanna & Nightwing

----------


## hairys

> So....uuh 
> Dick is  now in a polygamous relationship or what?
> wth man.... these writers nowadays smh. First Marvel now DC...


I think where it's going is that Dick and Babs can't have sex because one hard thrust might unfuse her spine.  (The whole fragile spine thing is going to be a major plot device with Babs going forward).  Kory is just providing what Babs can't.

----------


## Rac7d*

> I think where it's going is that Dick and Babs can't have sex because one hard thrust might unfuse her spine.  (The whole fragile spine thing is going to be a major plot device with Babs going forward).  Kory is just providing what Babs can't.


 That’s not not........  sex is not comparable too jumping off rooftops and fighting joker type villains.

Also what is this take “she is providing somthing the other can’t” like it’s product.

----------


## Aahz

> So I can see "why not Dinah?"


Because Dinah basically has already her definitive love interest in Green Arrow since the Bronze Age?

----------


## Restingvoice

> I think where it's going is that Dick and Babs can't have sex because one hard thrust might unfuse her spine.  (The whole fragile spine thing is going to be a major plot device with Babs going forward).  Kory is just providing what Babs can't.


Dick of steel, spine of kleenex

----------


## Ascended

> Lagging behind? Is there some competition going?


I mean, sort of yeah. The Big 2 have been trying to diversify for ages and elevate characters from minority groups. It's not exactly a competition, but neither wants to be seen as the company lagging behind the other when it comes to representation, and Marvel has Wolverine, Cyclops, and Jean in a poly dynamic now (I guess? Not reading the X-books). 




> As for Tamaraneans being more flexible, would anyone actually look at this that way? I mean sure, hardcores could say you know in issue X it was revealed they are ok with such things and so on, but to casual reader it would just look like some obscure comics lore that doesn't matter.


I don't think it takes a deep knowledge of Tamaranean culture to look at Kori in the comics and come to the conclusion that her views on sexuality are different from most humans'.

Regardless of how deep the precedent goes, the real challenge would be getting people to accept a poly relationship. That's still pretty fringe for a lot of folks, and something they don't really get. Kori fans, I think, would probably be the easiest to sell on the idea, but I feel like Babs' fans would riot at the thought, and Dick's fans....who knows?

----------


## SiegePerilous02

> Because Dinah basically has already her definitive love interest in Green Arrow since the Bronze Age?


That's another YMMV situation. Not everybody who likes Dinah/BOP also likes Ollie.

I think those that ship Black Canary/Oracle are a vocal minority compared to those who ship (or are at least used to) Black Canary/GA, but still. Also helps that Dinah was broken up with Ollie during sections of the BOP run. 




> Regardless of how deep the precedent goes, the real challenge would be getting people to accept a poly relationship. That's still pretty fringe for a lot of folks, and something they don't really get. Kori fans, I think, would probably be the easiest to sell on the idea, but I feel like Babs' fans would riot at the thought, and Dick's fans....who knows?


I think one of the key things that would help the idea go over would be to devote sufficient time to developing Kory and Babs's relationship with each other and what it means to them for themselves. Because otherwise it's going to just be a typical male fantasy with Dick scoring with two hot women who are each crazy over _him_, but don't have any meaningful impact for each other, essentially turning them into prizes/objects.

----------


## hairys

> That’s not [it]........  sex is not comparable too jumping off rooftops and fighting joker type villains.
> 
> Also what is this take “she is providing somthing the other can’t” like it’s product.


That's not how I would play the story (and I never would've written in "fragile spine" for Babs in the first place), but I don't trust the DC writers to do better.  So that's my prediction for what will go down.

As for the last line in your post, I hope I'm not breaking any news here but sex is very important in a relationship.  It's not a "product" (and I don't know where you got that idea) but it is a necessary component of an intimate couples relationship.

----------


## Frontier

> I think where it's going is that Dick and Babs can't h
> ave sex because one hard thrust might unfuse her spine.  (The whole fragile spine thing is going to be a major plot device with Babs going forward).  Kory is just providing what Babs can't.


I...highly doubt that. 



> I think one of the key things that would help the idea go over would be to devote sufficient time to developing Kory and Babs's relationship with each other and what it means to them for themselves. Because otherwise it's going to just be a typical male fantasy with Dick scoring with two hot women who are each crazy over _him_, but don't have any meaningful impact for each other, essentially turning them into prizes/objects.


I think Babs is too much of a prude to ever go with it. That, and I don't think she's ever really liked Kory.

----------


## Rac7d*

> That's not how I would play the story (and I never would've written in "fragile spine" for Babs in the first place), but I don't trust the DC writers to do better.  So that's my prediction for what will go down.
> 
> As for the last line in your post, I hope I'm not breaking any news here but sex is very important in a relationship.  It's not a "product" (and I don't know where you got that idea) but it is a necessary component of an intimate couples relationship.


I want to know why you think she cant have sex? even when she had no use of her legs sex was still possible she could even get pregnant if she wanted to.

----------


## Rac7d*

> I...highly doubt that. 
> 
> I think Babs is too much of a prude to ever go with it. That, and I don't think she's ever really liked Kory.


Dick did not want to be in a poly relationship with kory and another man. So i guess that something he and babs have in common.

----------


## SiegePerilous02

> I think Babs is too much of a prude to ever go with it. That, and I don't think she's ever really liked Kory.


One day they should really come up with a reason for Babs to dislike Kory beyond the jealousy over Dick thing. Because I can buy Babs being petty over it at first, but holding onto the grudge? That's beneath both of them.

If written well, I imagine a scenario where Babs is determined to dislike Kory at first simply because she's the ex and Kory is the new hotness. But can't actually bring herself to do it and ends up liking Kory as a person too much to begrudge her dating Dick. And vice versa whenever Dick breaks up with Kory and maybe ends up back with Barbara.

There also have been occasional implications that Bruce never approved of Kory, which I feel is just manufactured for needless drama and Kory not being part of the Bat IP. Because if Dick is madly in love with a woman, I can't see Bruce not automatically willing to give her a chance simply because she means so much to his little buddy

----------


## dropkickjake

Well. Things got pretty weird in here then, didnt they?

----------


## Aahz

> I think those that ship Black Canary/Oracle are a vocal minority compared to those who ship (or are at least used to) Black Canary/GA, but still. Also helps that Dinah was broken up with Ollie during sections of the BOP run.


Actually Ollie was dead during the fist few years of Birds of Prey.

But really Dinah and Ollie is really a case where it doesn't make much sense to pair them with any other character in the comics, since their relation is just to iconic.

But that gets really of topic.

----------


## AmiMizuno

> One day they should really come up with a reason for Babs to dislike Kory beyond the jealousy over Dick thing. Because I can buy Babs being petty over it at first, but holding onto the grudge? That's beneath both of them.
> 
> If written well, I imagine a scenario where Babs is determined to dislike Kory at first simply because she's the ex and Kory is the new hotness. But can't actually bring herself to do it and ends up liking Kory as a person too much to begrudge her dating Dick. And vice versa whenever Dick breaks up with Kory and maybe ends up back with Barbara.
> 
> There also have been occasional implications that Bruce never approved of Kory, which I feel is just manufactured for needless drama and Kory not being part of the Bat IP. Because if Dick is madly in love with a woman, I can't see Bruce not automatically willing to give her a chance simply because she means so much to his little buddy


I mean Babs kind of has always been jealous of other women. She kind of was with and not knowing about Folores. She kind of always been petty. I kind of want them to be friends rather than Babs being petty.

At this point I don't mind if it's Kory or Babs. I just want Dc to stop making the relationships with both women end messy or cheating

----------


## Frontier

> One day they should really come up with a reason for Babs to dislike Kory beyond the jealousy over Dick thing. Because I can buy Babs being petty over it at first, but holding onto the grudge? That's beneath both of them.
> 
> If written well, I imagine a scenario where Babs is determined to dislike Kory at first simply because she's the ex and Kory is the new hotness. But can't actually bring herself to do it and ends up liking Kory as a person too much to begrudge her dating Dick. And vice versa whenever Dick breaks up with Kory and maybe ends up back with Barbara.
> 
> There also have been occasional implications that Bruce never approved of Kory, which I feel is just manufactured for needless drama and Kory not being part of the Bat IP. Because if Dick is madly in love with a woman, I can't see Bruce not automatically willing to give her a chance simply because she means so much to his little buddy


I wouldn't say it's a grudge, she just has personal feelings that would prevent her from being gal pals with Kory beyond professionalism. Although I guess that never got in the way of her relationship with Helena. 

I think Bruce not supporting Kory was less about Kory and more about supporting Babs.

----------


## Konja7

> I think one of the key things that would help the idea go over would be to devote sufficient time to developing Kory and Babs's relationship with each other and what it means to them for themselves. Because otherwise it's going to just be a typical male fantasy with Dick scoring with two hot women who are each crazy over _him_, but don't have any meaningful impact for each other, essentially turning them into prizes/objects.


That's exactly the reason why polygamous relationship between Dick, Barbara and Kory couldn't work. 

It would essentially exist only for Dick's benefit. So, it would be a pretty bad represwntation.

----------


## Konja7

> I wouldn't say it's a grudge, she just has personal feelings that would prevent her from being gal pals with Kory beyond professionalism. Although I guess that never got in the way of her relationship with Helena. 
> 
> I think Bruce not supporting Kory was less about Kory and more about supporting Babs.


That situation was definitely a problem Barbara has with Helena at first. 

Barbara overcome this at the end, but she has issues with this.

----------


## SiegePerilous02

> I wouldn't say it's a grudge, she just has personal feelings that would prevent her from being gal pals with Kory beyond professionalism. Although I guess that never got in the way of her relationship with Helena. 
> 
> I think Bruce not supporting Kory was less about Kory and more about supporting Babs.


Has Bruce ever really shown a lot of support for Dick/Babs beyond a neutral grunt?

I see him supporting it in early BTAS, but we all know how that went unfortunately. Comics wise, Dick and Babs had a dynamic pre-COIE but it really ramped up in the 90s/2000s, and by that point Bruce was so cold I can't imagine he'd actively care about anyone's shipping. 




> That's exactly the reason why polygamous relationship between Dick, Barbara and Kory couldn't work. 
> 
> It would essentially exist only for Dick's benefit. So, it would be a pretty bad represwntation.


Even the X-Men stuff works better, at least on paper. Scott and Jean each get a side piece so they are on equal terms, and what's more those respective other partners (Logan and Emma) have histories and their own complicated dynamics with their partner's spouse. Plus they are all under the same IP, whereas Babs and Kory are not.

It would only exist for Dick to get the prize of two hot redheads.

----------


## Rakiduam

> That's exactly the reason why polygamous relationship between Dick, Barbara and Kory couldn't work. 
> 
> It would essentially exist only for Dick's benefit. So, it would be a pretty bad represwntation.


Basically.

And I don't even see Dick being happy on this situation. He was so young when his parents died and they were so happy in a only need each other kind of way, I don't think the idea of being devoted to two people can compute to him.

----------


## John Venus

> Actually Ollie was dead during the fist few years of Birds of Prey.
> 
> But really Dinah and Ollie is really a case where it doesn't make much sense to pair them with any other character in the comics, since their relation is just to iconic.
> 
> But that gets really of topic.


At this point, they are only together because nostalgia and wonky continuity. Pre Nu52, it felt like she had moved on from him in BOP but the writers threw them together again out of nostalgia and then had them break up again.

----------


## John Venus

If Dick/Babs/Kory went the polyamorous route then how do you make an alien like Starfire fit into the more grounded universe that the Nightwing books typically occupy or do you just have Dick go off to space in his own title?

----------


## HsssH

I don't see whats the problem with Nightwing having a space trip. No, I wouldn't like it if he was in space all the time, but couple of issues ever now and then? I'm ok with that.

----------


## Frontier

> Has Bruce ever really shown a lot of support for Dick/Babs beyond a neutral grunt?
> 
> I see him supporting it in early BTAS, but we all know how that went unfortunately. Comics wise, Dick and Babs had a dynamic pre-COIE but it really ramped up in the 90s/2000s, and by that point Bruce was so cold I can't imagine he'd actively care about anyone's shipping.


I guess not overtly, but I don't think he's ever been against it. I don't think he ever commented on it compromising them like he views his relationships. 



> Even the X-Men stuff works better, at least on paper. Scott and Jean each get a side piece so they are on equal terms, and what's more those respective other partners (Logan and Emma) have histories and their own complicated dynamics with their partner's spouse. Plus they are all under the same IP, whereas Babs and Kory are not.
> 
> It would only exist for Dick to get the prize of two hot redheads.


In my own reading I've never really found any of the characters willing to settle for side-pieces and share to that extent, but that's just me.

----------


## Rac7d*

> Has Bruce ever really shown a lot of support for Dick/Babs beyond a neutral grunt?

----------


## SiegePerilous02

> In my own reading I've never really found any of the characters willing to settle for side-pieces and share to that extent, but that's just me.


Eh, the X-Men have always had weird sexual antics, have all died and come back to life at least once, and this particular love square includes two telepaths who are able to establish intimacy with their partners on a level nobody in real life can ever manage.

As long as it gets us away from boring relationship drama, there is more than enough unconventional stuff at play here for me to roll with it, lol. 




> 


Anything from the 90s/2000s? This certainly counts, but is also very recent




> At this point, they are only together because nostalgia and wonky continuity. Pre Nu52, it felt like she had moved on from him in BOP but the writers threw them together again out of nostalgia and then had them break up again.


Yeah, at this point it's a romance that seemingly exists because people are used to it, not a ship that has a lot of diehards rooting for it. 

Also is from a period where Black Canary was basically an extension of GA, but BOP and beyond she's started to become her own entity away from him to the point where getting them back together can come across as a step backwards.

----------


## Restingvoice

Wow we're still going with this
Okay there's some thoughts I need to unravel anyway:

The last time we see Dick Kori and Babs together was right after that Batman marriage, she said she's happy for them
After the war was won the timeline was reset to before Batman Who Laughs attack
Meaning at that point Dick was back to being amnesia, Babs is considering dating Jason Bard, and Kori was still out of space
Everyone remember everything though
At the very least the members of The Totality remember the war

So the next thing that happened was... sigh... Babs blaming Dick for being brainwash on the Joker... I'm just gonna say she's not in the right mind after accidentally killing her brother again... for the sake of my sanity... effectively ending any potential  relationship at that time
Then Dick read Damian's letter leaving his Teens in the Titans care, and now with the combination of Roy still being dead and the Titans regaining their memory of past lives during the war, they band the classic team together and build Roy Harper Academy

So Babs is busy being a congresswoman's aide and trying to get her life together while Dick reconnected with Kori during the planning and building of Titans Academy and that's when they started flirting again

Now is a month or two after A-Day, Titans Academy is built and accepting student, and Babs have talked to her dad about James Jr. and with the reveal that Gordon knew that Babs is Batgirl, they reach an understanding and she's no longer considering dating Jason Bard. 

So now that we got that problem squared away Babs is of sound mind again and can talk to Dick so she visits Bludhaven and threw him to the wall.

----------


## Ascended

> Well. Things got pretty weird in here then, didnt they?


And that's largely my fault.

My bad, I never thought the entire thread would get pulled into this. It's my idea and even *I* said it'd never happen.




> That's exactly the reason why polygamous relationship between Dick, Barbara and Kory couldn't work. 
> 
> It would essentially exist only for Dick's benefit. So, it would be a pretty bad represwntation.


That'd be my fear as well. Even setting aside the fact that this is wildly out of character for Dick and Babs (less so Kori), I don't trust DC to handle such a dynamic in a proper fashion. There's a lot of new writers at the company now, so you never know I guess, but history does not support a poly relationship.

I'd still take it, if it meant getting us out of the endless triangle, but I'd accept almost *any* solution to escape that. But it would still put Dick and Babs together, and that's something I never, ever want to see again; they bring out the worst in each other and somehow make each other less, rather than more.




> If Dick/Babs/Kory went the polyamorous route then how do you make an alien like Starfire fit into the more grounded universe that the Nightwing books typically occupy or do you just have Dick go off to space in his own title?


Nightwing shouldn't be a street level, grounded book in the first place (in my opinion) so it wouldn't be a barrier in my mind; rather it would open up Dick's narrative to the kind of higher concept stories I want to see him get into more often. 

One of the great things about Nightwing, which DC almost always ignores, is that he stretches into different genres and scenarios better than damn near anyone. Nightwing in a street level, pulp-y murder mystery? Makes perfect sense, Batman is basically his dad. Nightwing in deep space fighting Gordanian slavers? Makes perfect sense, Superman is basically his uncle and Dick nearly married a alien princess. In my opinion, Dick fits more easily into sci-fi and high concept adventures better than Bruce does.

----------


## WonderNight

Yep I  agree I feel nightwing's solo should be more of a superman style book. A book that fits more with the other titans and superman books for his solo.

The grounded street level nightwing should be for when he's in the other bat books not his solo. His solo being grounded and street level just makes him redundant with batman and all the other bats.

A Nightwing solo should feel like if a batman was apart of the superverse.

----------


## Badou

> If Dick/Babs/Kory went the polyamorous route then how do you make an alien like Starfire fit into the more grounded universe that the Nightwing books typically occupy or do you just have Dick go off to space in his own title?


Starfire doesn't fit into that world. She is a character that lacks utility and can't fit into a lot of typical Nightwing stories. Like the most recent issue of Nightwing where Dick and Babs go out on a "date" to get some pizza in casual clothes can't happen with Starfire. She sticks out too much. It is one of the reasons why Babs has been Dick's main love interest for over 20 years now. She fits into the more typical Nightwing/Batman styled stories that DC wants to push. Dick's love life mirrors the kind of stories DC wants to use him in. He's had more normal or grounded love interest for the last 20+ years because those are the kind of stories they want to tell with him, and he hasn't really been in that many large non-grounded/space/fantasy stories so you are limited in how to use Starfire, or characters like her, as a love interest.

As for the polyamorous stuff I thought it was dumb how they did it in the X-Men, but I quit following the X-Men entirely before all that so it was whatever at this point. Just another reason to not want to read them anymore. I'm at the point with Babs and Starfire where I don't like either, but if forced to choose I'll always go Babs because she has far more utility for stories in my opinion, and I don't think modern Starfire is that good of a character. I think she is at her most interesting when she is in space or when she is newly arrived on Earth trying to understand it and you can tell a lot of stories around that with her, but we are so far removed from the latter that it doesn't really work anymore. So I don't find her that interesting, but also I'm sick of how Dick and Starfire's relationship is only used to throw Dick under the bus or guilt trip him now. It's so frustrating and it seems that is what they are going to do again in the TTA book. Feels like it has been just 25 years of making Dick look like an asshole and I wish DC would just move Starfire on to someone else at this point to end that. Although when Lobdell moved her on to Roy he still took shots at Dick making him the "bad guy", so I dunno.

----------


## Confuzzled

> Starfire doesn't fit into that world. She is a character that lacks utility and can't fit into a lot of typical Nightwing stories. Like the most recent issue of Nightwing where Dick and Babs go out on a "date" to get some pizza in casual clothes can't happen with Starfire. She sticks out too much.* It is one of the reasons why Babs has been Dick's main love interest for over 20 years now.*


Not in adaptations for sure. Kids who grew up watching the various Teen Titans animated films and movies and who are now watching the Titans live action show think Dick/Kori are the end goal. Dick/Babs becomes irrelevant the moment Dick starts interacting outside the Batverse.

----------


## SiegePerilous02

> I'd still take it, if it meant getting us out of the endless triangle, but I'd accept almost *any* solution to escape that. But it would still put Dick and Babs together, and that's something I never, ever want to see again; they bring out the worst in each other and somehow make each other less, rather than more.


I don't think it's just Dick/Babs that bring out the worst in each other. Did Dick and Kory ever have long term prospects? If we read the NTT run (the height of their romance in the comics), it was very important for that stage of their lives but doesn't seem built to last. Dick would close himself off emotionally, Kory would alternate between being reasonable in trying to get him to talk and being incapable of understanding why he won't open up and not give him space. He would unintentionally patronize her and make her feel stupid for not understanding Earth customs and worried she'd fly off the handle and kill people. Donna, who loved them both, warned Kory against living only for Dick and felt Kory was only in love with the idea of them being a couple, not feeling actual love itself. But this didn't pan out and she got together with Dick anyway. At least until she got mad at Dick for being raped by Mirage and then he got creepily possessive of her and they almost got married. Demon Lesbian Raven interrupting that wedding was probably for the best. 




> Not in adaptations for sure. Kids who grew up watching the various Teen Titans animated films and movies and who are now watching the Titans live action show think Dick/Kori are the end goal. Dick/Babs becomes irrelevant the moment Dick starts interacting outside the Batverse.


But there is also the group that grew up watching BTAS and we currently have Dick and Babs as a couple in YJ....where Dick is not operating exclusively in the Bat-verse. And Babs will be showing up in the Titans show even if it favors Dick/Kory. So I'm not seeing at all how it becomes irrelevant outside of wearing certain shipping goggles.

----------


## Rac7d*

> Not in adaptations for sure. Kids who grew up watching the various Teen Titans animated films and movies and who are now watching the Titans live action show think Dick/Kori are the end goal. Dick/Babs becomes irrelevant the moment Dick starts interacting outside the Batverse.


Yes that is one way to look at it. However since the shows inception Barbra Gordon was always meant to be apart of the cast. And will be joining immediately next season. The entirety of the third season will be taking place in Gotham city. Despite in being described as a Starfire heavy season, the location and multiple number of Bat characters will be in the mix. The only notable superhuman villain know will be blackfire. This season will definitely test the idea of if Starfire can exist in Gotham without issue, weather that be weakening her,or her not using common sense. Additionally be prepared to see kory with a new love interest. Finally were gonna get a clear cut reason as to why princess starfire is not going to liberate her home planet from her clearly evil sister.

I'm actualy expecting Dick to take over for Batman who seems absent from the city this season. Which person he keep is up in the air.

If warner does rebrand the team into the teen titans with tim Kon Gar and raven     where is that gonna leave starfire?  

they have been teasing a redhood spinoff and the actor has been showing this image

https://twitter.com/WhatsOnHBOMax/st...91908769366021

----------


## Frontier

> But there is also the group that grew up watching BTAS and we currently have Dick and Babs as a couple in YJ....where Dick is not operating exclusively in the Bat-verse. And Babs will be showing up in the Titans show even if it favors Dick/Kory. So I'm not seeing at all how it becomes irrelevant outside of wearing certain shipping goggles.


Although I wouldn't say Dick and Babs' romance was that prevalent in B:TAS aside from _Sub-Zero_, and it ended badly, while YJ is basically just for comic fans at this point.

----------


## Drako

> Yes that is one way to look at it. However since the shows inception Barbra Gordon was always meant to be apart of the cast. And will be joining immediately next season. The entirety of the third season will be taking place in Gotham city. Despite in being described as a Starfire heavy season, the location and multiple number of Bat characters will be in the mix. The only notable superhuman villain know will be blackfire. This season will definitely test the idea of if Starfire can exist in Gotham without issue, weather that be weakening her,or her not using common sense. Additionally be prepared to see kory with a new love interest. Finally were gonna get a clear cut reason as to why princess starfire is not going to liberate her home planet from her clearly evil sister.
> 
> I'm actualy expecting Dick to take over for Batman who seems absent from the city this season. Which person he keep is up in the air.
> 
> If warner does rebrand the team into the teen titans with tim Kon Gar and raven     where is that gonna leave starfire?  
> 
> they have been teasing a redhood spinoff and the actor has been showing this image
> 
> https://twitter.com/WhatsOnHBOMax/st...91908769366021


I doubt Starfire will be in the Outlaws show.

----------


## 9th.

> Not in adaptations for sure. Kids who grew up watching the various Teen Titans animated films and movies and who are now watching the Titans live action show think Dick/Kori are the end goal. Dick/Babs becomes irrelevant the moment Dick starts interacting outside the Batverse.


My thing is why does she have to blend in anyway? Citizens in the DCU should be no strangers to weird looking characters, all of that should be normalized by now.

----------


## Rac7d*

> I doubt Starfire will be in the Outlaws show.


So what do you think will happen to her? Den mother to the next emerging group of titans?

----------


## Godlike13

Outlaw’s Starfire would be a nightmare for DC in today’s culture. I mean it was a bad look then, so much so they had to do pretty much immediate damage control, but now a days. Ya good luck with that.

----------


## Rac7d*

> Outlaw’s Starfire would be a nightmare for DC in today’s culture. I mean it was a bad look then, so much so they had to do pretty much immediate damage control, but now a a days. Ya good luck with that.


Rid her of the outfits and what’s love got to do with it attitude 
She retains the spot

----------


## SiegePerilous02

> Although I wouldn't say Dick and Babs' romance was that prevalent in B:TAS aside from _Sub-Zero_, and it ended badly, while YJ is basically just for comic fans at this point.


They had sexual tension all throughout TNBA to the point where Bruce/Babs was only revealed in Batman Beyond, which is why it was met with a near unanimous "what the flying fuck?" backlash among the fandom. 

I'd say YJ and the Titans DTVs would be on equal terms as just being for the fans at this point. So each ship has a classic cartoon in their favor, and some animated stuff aimed more at the diehards. Kory's main advantage at this point is the live action show, and even that is bringing Babs into it, likely to bring the shipping wars to that fandom

----------


## Rac7d*

> They had sexual tension all throughout TNBA to the point where Bruce/Babs was only revealed in Batman Beyond, which is why it was met with a near unanimous "what the flying fuck?" backlash among the fandom. 
> 
> I'd say YJ and the Titans DTVs would be on equal terms as just being for the fans at this point. So each ship has a classic cartoon in their favor, and some animated stuff aimed more at the diehards. Kory's main advantage at this point is the live action show, and even that is bringing Babs into it, likely to bring the shipping wars to that fandom


I guess the Live action batgirl movie could bring it to a close

----------


## Grayson - The Dark Heir

> If Dick/Babs/Kory went the polyamorous route then how do you make an alien like Starfire fit into the more grounded universe that the Nightwing books typically occupy or do you just have Dick go off to space in his own title?


Polyamorous or not, yeah. That Dick, who's seen and done practically everything over 80 years, is stuck being Batman or Daredevil but generally with a less interesting setting and supporting characters is laughable. Dick should be going all over the place, even if Bludhaven is his homebase, so yeah Kory fits. If anything, it just opens up the book to be more interesting. Other countries, other dimensions, planets, timelines, etc., should all be possible for a Nightwing book but apparently Dick is not allowed to be anything he wasn't when written by Dixon. 70+ years of publication history just doesn't matter to DC lol.

Didn't mean to get so negative, but I can't help it whenever the topic changes to Dick being stuck at street-level with no variation.

----------


## Frontier

> They had sexual tension all throughout TNBA to the point where Bruce/Babs was only revealed in Batman Beyond, which is why it was met with a near unanimous "what the flying fuck?" backlash among the fandom. 
> 
> I'd say YJ and the Titans DTVs would be on equal terms as just being for the fans at this point. So each ship has a classic cartoon in their favor, and some animated stuff aimed more at the diehards. Kory's main advantage at this point is the live action show, and even that is bringing Babs into it, likely to bring the shipping wars to that fandom


Well, I guess sexual tension as unresolved exes...

----------


## Drako

> So what do you think will happen to her? Den mother to the next emerging group of titans?


The Titans show is not going to end yet and she isn't going anywhere else.

----------


## SiegePerilous02

> I guess the Live action batgirl movie could bring it to a close


I don't think either relationship will ever be brought to a close




> Well, I guess sexual tension as unresolved exes...


I'd say that counts as shipping pandering.

It's what Dick/Kory have been coasting along on in the comics for awhile.

----------


## Rakiduam

> I guess the Live action batgirl movie could bring it to a close


So you are saying they sacrificated The Titans so Jason could have a show, and the best Dick can hope is be forever Babs little boyfriend.

The future never has looked so bleak. (At least marvel is doing intersting things, since DC is a lost)

----------


## Rac7d*

> The Titans show is not going to end yet and she isn't going anywhere else.


never said it was ending but transforming

----------


## Rac7d*

> So you are saying they sacrificated The Titans so Jason could have a show, and the best Dick can hope is be forever Babs little boyfriend.
> 
> The future never has looked so bleak. (At least marvel is doing intersting things, since DC is a lost)


you call that bleak? 80 years and nightwing has never graced the big screen, if thats what gets him infront of the mainstream I'll take it.  If it gets him the name recognition that leads to more opportunity for him I'll take it.

The titans are not be sacrificed, they proably going through a shift, with hawk and dove leaving, It seemed that we would have Nightwing and Star leading the teen heroes, but their spending so much time in Gotham, I feel dick might be needed to stay in the city

----------


## John Venus

> Polyamorous or not, yeah. That Dick, who's seen and done practically everything over 80 years, is stuck being Batman or Daredevil but generally with a less interesting setting and supporting characters is laughable. Dick should be going all over the place, even if Bludhaven is his homebase, so yeah Kory fits. If anything, it just opens up the book to be more interesting. Other countries, other dimensions, planets, timelines, etc., should all be possible for a Nightwing book but apparently Dick is not allowed to be anything he wasn't when written by Dixon. 70+ years of publication history just doesn't matter to DC lol.
> 
> Didn't mean to get so negative, but I can't help it whenever the topic changes to Dick being stuck at street-level with no variation.





> Nightwing shouldn't be a street level, grounded book in the first place (in my opinion) so it wouldn't be a barrier in my mind; rather it would open up Dick's narrative to the kind of higher concept stories I want to see him get into more often. 
> 
> One of the great things about Nightwing, which DC almost always ignores, is that he stretches into different genres and scenarios better than damn near anyone. Nightwing in a street level, pulp-y murder mystery? Makes perfect sense, Batman is basically his dad. Nightwing in deep space fighting Gordanian slavers? Makes perfect sense, Superman is basically his uncle and Dick nearly married a alien princess. In my opinion, Dick fits more easily into sci-fi and high concept adventures better than Bruce does.


I can't disagree with any of this. My ideal Nightwing would be one where Dick Grayson can go anywhere and show up anywhere including space and other dimensions. However, most Batman editors are insistent on the Nightwing title being grounded and street level.  




> Starfire doesn't fit into that world. She is a character that lacks utility and can't fit into a lot of typical Nightwing stories. Like the most recent issue of Nightwing where Dick and Babs go out on a "date" to get some pizza in casual clothes can't happen with Starfire. She sticks out too much. It is one of the reasons why Babs has been Dick's main love interest for over 20 years now. She fits into the more typical Nightwing/Batman styled stories that DC wants to push. Dick's love life mirrors the kind of stories DC wants to use him in. He's had more normal or grounded love interest for the last 20+ years because those are the kind of stories they want to tell with him, and he hasn't really been in that many large non-grounded/space/fantasy stories so you are limited in how to use Starfire, or characters like her, as a love interest.


I don't know, Kory blends in just fine if you ask me:

----------


## Rakiduam

> you call that bleak? 80 years and nightwing has never graced the big screen, if thats what gets him infront of the mainstream I'll take it.  If it gets him the name recognition that leads to more opportunity for him I'll take it.
> 
> The titans are not be sacrificed, they proably going through a shift, with hawk and dove leaving, It seemed that we would have Nightwing and Star leading the teen heroes, but their spending so much time in Gotham, I feel dick might be needed to stay in the city


Extremely. 80 years of existence and he is reduced to Babs love interest. If he is going to be stuck as a sidecki better be Batman's sidekick. (If he is in that thing, he is going to be braindead)

So only Dick is being sacrificed? Awesome, that's better. Dick would be having scary alucinations, again, while the young Titans go to have actual adventures.

I can't believe they butchered Trigon and Deathstroke and now they are going to spend a season on Jason's melodrama, it never ocurred to me that one day the Red Hood origen was going to be Dick's problem. The batfamily is the gift that keeps on giving. But hey, Jason would have his show, becuse what we need is more bat shows. And looking at what they did with NTT material, they are going to be done with the outlaws in a month.

----------


## Badou

> I don't know, Kory blends in just fine if you ask me:


The top image isn't from the comic DCU and is from that Raven OGN artist, right? And based more off the Teen Titans cartoon where Starfire is made to look a lot more human. She doesn't look like that in the main DCU. The bottom image is from the 80s where the writing was a lot different, but also Starfire there does stick out. The people around them are staring at them because of Starfire. So I don't think she would really fit in more consistent grounded settings like that.

----------


## SiegePerilous02

> The top image isn't from the comic DCU and is from that Raven OGN artist, right? And based more off the Teen Titans cartoon where Starfire is made to look a lot more human. She doesn't look like that in the main DCU. The bottom image is from the 80s where the writing was a lot different, but also Starfire there does stick out. The people around them are staring at them because of Starfire. So I don't think she would really fit in more consistent grounded settings like that.


They are more likely staring at Starfire because she's statuesque hottie, not because she looks like an alien.

----------


## Godlike13

She's 6ft tall and is orange. She literally shines.

----------


## SiegePerilous02

> She's 6ft tall and is orange.* She literally shines.*


Not in the artwork back then, but yeah the orange skin is a giveaway.

But the looks the men in those particular scans are giving are first and foremost "check out the hottie."

----------


## HsssH

Writers can writer whatever they want, but it obviously would look "fake" to readers if Starfire wasn't attracting unwanted attention. But is that really a problem? Dick and Babs going out for some fast food was fine, but its not like we can't get different stuff from Nightwing. And its not like every single issue would have to feature Starfire, last I checked the book is still called Nightwing and Babs should be packing her bags about now.

----------


## Avi

Dick and Kory went out all the time while they were together. Dick went out in disguise more often than Kory. Her attracting unwanted attention is imo an incredibly small issue. Writers ignore more important stuff, they could easily ignore this. Kory wasn't even recognized as Starfire in her own solo as far as I remember. I also don't think Blüdhaveners are overly interested in the Titans. Hell, currently, they can't even recognize their own hero when he stands a step in front of them. Even though multiple versions of Nightwing were running around for some time.




> Writers can writer whatever they want, but it obviously would look "fake" to readers if Starfire wasn't attracting unwanted attention. But is that really a problem? Dick and Babs going out for some fast food was fine, but its not like we can't get different stuff from Nightwing. *And its not like every single issue would have to feature Starfire, last I checked the book is still called Nightwing and Babs should be packing her bags about now.*


Yep.

----------


## RedQueen

I think with Taylor having major control with  Dick's character and what Dick said in the Titans....it's safe to say which direction it's going in.

I think so many characters in Titans Academy, the focus point won't be that much on Dick, so I do focus on his solo for his character stuff, and really I don't get the vibe Babs is going anywhere anytime soon. She's very much ingrained into the new title.

----------


## John Venus

> She's 6ft tall and is orange. She literally shines.


So? You guys elected an orange President.

----------


## Godlike13

> So? You guys elected an orange President.


Touché.
...

----------


## BloodOps

> So? You guys elected an orange President.


Ugh, don't remind me lol

----------


## The World

I don't really see why Taylor has any obligation to follow whats going on in Titans. Especially if Nightwing ends up being the bigger book in the end. Isn't continuity suppose to be loosey goosey now anyways?

----------


## Grayson - The Dark Heir

> So? You guys elected an orange President.


Damn lmao.

Anyways, going back to the Starfire discussion, I think it's a larger problem that the DCU looks virtually the same as it did 80 years ago. By now, there should be plenty of immigrants and refugees from other planets, even dimensions, and a hell of a lot more "mutants" like Guppy. That Bludhaven is so boring that Kory would stand out is exactly the problem lol, but again this comes down to DC not advancing anything in any meaningful way since the first few reboots, let alone the more recent ones.

Still, as limited as Nightwing is, and as boring as Bludhaven is, sure, Kory might not fit well. Babs sure does, as does Bruce and every other Bat-character. Perfect for when they need Nightwing to look cool in five panels for the next Batman Event...

----------


## Godlike13

Its also a matter of power scaling.

----------


## Rac7d*

> Damn lmao.
> 
> Anyways, going back to the Starfire discussion, I think it's a larger problem that the DCU looks virtually the same as it did 80 years ago. By now, there should be plenty of immigrants and refugees from other planets, even dimensions, and a hell of a lot more "mutants" like Guppy. That Bludhaven is so boring that Kory would stand out is exactly the problem lol, but again this comes down to DC not advancing anything in any meaningful way since the first few reboots, let alone the more recent ones.
> 
> Still, as limited as Nightwing is, and as boring as Bludhaven is, sure, Kory might not fit well. Babs sure does, as does Bruce and every other Bat-character. Perfect for when they need Nightwing to look cool in five panels for the next Batman Event...


Young justice is addressing things like that. Earth has become a halfway home for extraterrestrials, meta humans, gnomes and etc

----------


## Confuzzled

> They had sexual tension all throughout TNBA to the point where Bruce/Babs was only revealed in Batman Beyond...


Umm...




The seeds for Bruce/Babs were sown (ew) pretty early on in the DCAU. Also as someone who grew up with BOTH BTAS/TNBA and Teen Titans, Dick/Babs were nowhere as prominent in the former as Dick/Kori were in the latter.

----------


## Confuzzled

> If Dick/Babs/Kory went the polyamorous route then how do you make an alien like Starfire fit into the more grounded universe that the Nightwing books typically occupy or do you just have Dick go off to space in his own title?


There's a certain poetry in 'star performer' Dick Grayson getting to show off among the stars in front of the biggest audience possible, travelling place to place just like in the old days with Haley's. That makes so much more sense than holding him back in gutter hole Bludhaven, which just makes him appear as Batman lite.

----------


## WonderNight

Yea and being Batman lite was a problem back then, but now there's two batman running around! Nightwing needs a reboot.

----------


## SiegePerilous02

> The seeds for Bruce/Babs were sown (ew) pretty early on in the DCAU. Also as someone who grew up with BOTH BTAS/TNBA and Teen Titans, Dick/Babs were nowhere as prominent in the former as Dick/Kori were in the latter.


As someone who also grew up with both BTAS/TNA and TT, I have to disagree that the initial seeds indicate that something serious was going to happen at that time. The dream sequence establishes that Barbara has a one sided crush on Bruce in a sappy dream sequence...and then is interrupted by Dick (literally taking over as Batman's "voice" to jar her out of the dream and back to reality), whom she had ship teasing scenes in her debut episode as Batgirl and had some more in this very episode. This whole sequence is done in a way to position Barbara's unrealistic and shallow crush on Batman giving way to the more equal ground and realistic option with Dick. Then we have Sub-Zero. They receive relatively less scenes than Dick/Kory in TT throughout TNBA, but we also need to factor in the fact that Dick and Kory are 2/5 of the regular leads of that show but Bruce is the only required regular lead in TNBA while they are support characters. They have the belligerent sexual tension throughout their appearances in TNBA, and their singular cameo in JL is the alternate reality where they are among Bruce's soldiers, explicitly shown kissing and in a romantic light. 

So one dream sequence that is conveyed in a way that tells us not to take it seriously doesn't translate to something the audience should seriously expect, it got a backlash for a reason (in addition for being a shitty idea for other reaons). I'd say overall other media DOES favor Starfire, but labeling the other ship as irrelevant or not having much to back it reeks of bias.

----------


## Restingvoice

So when, how, and why Dick and Babs started dating in comics? In story I mean.

----------


## Frontier

> So when, how, and why Dick and Babs started dating in comics? In story I mean.


In what context we talking about here? 

I think Pre-Crisis the biggest seed for it was Babs planting one on Robin to distract him or shut him up. 

In Post-Crisis, when they aged Babs down a tad, it was established that Dick had a major crush on her when she first started out and there was a lot of sexual tension between them throughout their careers before Dick moved onto the Titans and got with Starfire, but there was still that tension there. 

They didn't start seriously dating until the Dixon-era Nightwing when Babs was Oracle although (if you take that annual as fact) the first time they had sex together was after she got paralyzed and Dick visited her (to tell her about his wedding to Kori). 

New 52 it gets kind of murkier. It was basically the same Post-Crisis where they were the same age and had a lot of sexual tension that carried on into adulthood, but it doesn't seem like they ever seriously dated for a long period of time but have kissed and had sex at different periods in time.

Now it's basically a continuity free for all.

----------


## Rac7d*

> In what context we talking about here? 
> 
> I think Pre-Crisis the biggest seed for it was Babs planting one on Robin to distract him or shut him up. 
> 
> In Post-Crisis, when they aged Babs down a tad, it was established that Dick had a major crush on her when she first started out and there was a lot of sexual tension between them throughout their careers before Dick moved onto the Titans and got with Starfire, but there was still that tension there. 
> 
> They didn't start seriously dating until the Dixon-era Nightwing when Babs was Oracle although (if you take that annual as fact) the first time they had sex together was after she got paralyzed and Dick visited her (to tell her about his wedding to Kori). 
> 
> New 52 it gets kind of murkier. It was basically the same Post-Crisis where they were the same age and had a lot of sexual tension that carried on into adulthood, but it doesn't seem like they ever seriously dated for a long period of time but have kissed and had sex at different periods in time.
> ...


Babs said they dated, before but I cant be sure now. I guess their first engagement is still happened as well. The word murky is correct

----------


## Restingvoice

> In what context we talking about here? 
> 
> They didn't start seriously dating until the Dixon-era Nightwing when Babs was Oracle although (if you take that annual as fact) the first time they had sex together was after she got paralyzed and Dick visited her (to tell her about his wedding to Kori).


This one. Thank you.

----------


## John Venus

See what I mean about how Babs does not like to share?

----------


## Frontier

> See what I mean about how Babs does not like to share?


I always assumed Oracle's modulator still comes off as feminine, but I guess in-universe it has to be gender neutral for secret identity purposes.

Yeah, Babs doesn't like Kori  :Stick Out Tongue: .

----------


## Confuzzled

> They receive relatively less scenes than Dick/Kory in TT throughout TNBA, but we also need to factor in the fact that Dick and Kory are 2/5 of the regular leads of that show but Bruce is the only required regular lead in TNBA while they are support characters.


I mean, my point literally is Dick/Kori received far more exposure for Millennials and Gen Z kids growing up, making it the coupling those kids would be more familiar with, so... 




> I'd say overall other media DOES favor Starfire, but labeling the other ship as irrelevant or not having much to back it reeks of bias.


But what I said is Dick/Babs is not really relevant when Dick is operating outside of the Bat-verse, so not getting that context reeks of reading comprehension fail. And since DC will NEVER retire Bruce, there is no point restricting Dick to the Bat-books. At least Barbara has Birds of Prey which while technically a 'Bat-book' is only tangentially so and mostly just because of her and the location. Also, narratively speaking, I don't think the ship being endgame is really interesting for either character and is a bit Peter Parker/Gwen Stacy-esque in that first love being OTP tends to be less interesting than when the character is allowed to develop and mature and then find a partner in someone else, with whom their relationship can be better informed thanks to past experiences. Or I guess the other option is just going Cyclops/Jean Grey/Wolverine/Emma Frost poly, but then again, I feel that works is because BOTH Scott and Jean had iconic love rivals in Logan and Emma respectively. A Dick/Babs/Kori relationship would be too Dick-centric.

----------


## WonderNight

> I mean, my point literally is Dick/Kori received far more exposure for Millennials and Gen Z kids growing up, making it the coupling those kids would be more familiar with, so... 
> 
> 
> 
> But what I said is Dick/Babs is not really relevant when Dick is operating outside of the Bat-verse, so not getting that context reeks of reading comprehension fail. And since DC will NEVER retire Bruce, there is no point restricting Dick to the Bat-books. At least Barbara has Birds of Prey which while technically a 'Bat-book' is only tangentially so and mostly just because of her and the location. Also, narratively speaking, I don't think the ship being endgame is really interesting for either character and is a bit Peter Parker/Gwen Stacy-esque in that first love being OTP tends to be less interesting than when the character is allowed to develop and mature and then find a partner in someone else, with whom their relationship can be better informed thanks to past experiences. Or I guess the other option is just going Cyclops/Jean Grey/Wolverine/Emma Frost poly, but then again, I feel that works is because BOTH Scott and Jean had iconic love rivals in Logan and Emma respectively. A Dick/Babs/Kori relationship would be too Dick-centric.


Yea I keep saying babs holds dick back by locking him down to batman.

----------


## SiegePerilous02

> *But what I said is Dick/Babs is not really relevant when Dick is operating outside of the Bat-verse, so not getting that context reeks of reading comprehension fail.* And since DC will NEVER retire Bruce, there is no point restricting Dick to the Bat-books. At least Barbara has Birds of Prey which while technically a 'Bat-book' is only tangentially so and mostly just because of her and the location. Also, narratively speaking, I don't think the ship being endgame is really interesting for either character and is a bit Peter Parker/Gwen Stacy-esque in that first love being OTP tends to be less interesting than when the character is allowed to develop and mature and then find a partner in someone else, with whom their relationship can be better informed thanks to past experiences. Or I guess the other option is just going Cyclops/Jean Grey/Wolverine/Emma Frost poly, but then again, I feel that works is because BOTH Scott and Jean had iconic love rivals in Logan and Emma respectively. A Dick/Babs/Kori relationship would be too Dick-centric.


Except not really, because bringing up irrelevancy is pointless in the first place. there is no reason for it to become irrelevant once Dick steps into the wider DCU (as evidenced by Babs being brought into the Titans show). Which he has been doing since he was Robin anyway with all the team ups with Superman and the Teen Titans, among other things. He shouldn't be restricted to the Bat-books, but wresting him from them completely is an unrealistic pipedream. Both for him and Barbara (though she too should be allowed to branch out way more than she does), but it doesn't have to be the narrative death sentence DC allows it to be either. And it's not like pairing him back up with Starfire really does much for him, in its own way it shackles him to a team book that is trapped reliving its glory days of the 80s over and over again.

The Peter/Gwen comparison doesn't really work in this scenario. You'd need to find a much better developed love interest than her (as a love interest and a character in her own right) to compare to Babs.

----------


## Rakiduam

> Except not really, because bringing up irrelevancy is pointless in the first place. there is no reason for it to become irrelevant once Dick steps into the wider DCU (as evidenced by Babs being brought into the Titans show)l.


You mean the bat family show previously known as Titans? They are going to be in Gotham fighting the Red Hood and the Scarecrow. That's not the wider DCU, they made the Titans smaller to fit on a Bat junior mold, completely crushed any potential the show had. 

I have to say I didn't expect that Babs fans would to argue that Babs fit better into boring Bludhaven because unlike Starfire she doesn't shine. Can't disagree though.

----------


## Grayson - The Dark Heir

> And it's not like pairing him back up with Starfire really does much for him, in its own way it shackles him to a team book that is trapped reliving its glory days of the 80s over and over again.


You say this like the Nightwing book hasn't been trying to relive the "glory" days of the 90's over and over again, since, you know, the early 2000's, shackling him to Batman forever. 

I think these conversations are going in circles now so I'm going to stay out of the rest of it, but this one point I needed to respond to lol.

----------


## RedQueen

I'm actually looking forward to dickbabs this time because it looks like they're gonna actually commit to a love story. They've been annoying for the last 10 years but now they're actually acting semi-sane around each other it's a good thing.

Kori and Dick in titans slept together and then he's ditching her again without having a proper talk about what it actually means.

To me just from the narrative from the last twenty years of stories, I would definitely say Kory loves dick more than he loves her.

----------


## SiegePerilous02

> You mean the bat family show previously known as Titans? They are going to be in Gotham fighting the Red Hood and the Scarecrow. That's not the wider DCU, they made the Titans smaller to fit on a Bat junior mold, completely crushed any potential the show had. 
> 
> I have to say I didn't expect that Babs fans would to argue that Babs fit better into boring Bludhaven because unlike Starfire she doesn't shine. Can't disagree though.


The show never had much appeal to me anyway. I dislike throwing the Bat-family into it (and the casting of Bruce is weird), but it's not like Dick's ties to the Bat-family have ever been irrelevant when he moved into the wider DCU. So this is nothing new. 




> You say this like the Nightwing book hasn't been trying to relive the "glory" days of the 90's over and over again, since, you know, the early 2000's, shackling him to Batman forever. 
> 
> I think these conversations are going in circles now so I'm going to stay out of the rest of it, but this one point I needed to respond to lol.


When have I ever given the impression that I liked Bludhaven and the 90s/2000s Bat-books? Dixon is actually one of my least favorite influences on the Bat-verse. I'm not picking up the new run because outside of the artwork, the setup and Taylor's writing don't appeal to me for the very reason you are listing. 

It's just that the Titans and Kory aren't going to automatically set Dick free from bad writing and a bad relationship the way people think either, since the Titans franchise hasn't had anything good since the 80s. Kory and Babs are more or less on equal footing for being great characters who can be in a well written relationship for Dick, but also have potential to drag in a lot of baggage or be written poorly. For all the stories of Dick and Babs bringing out the worst in each other, there is the original NTT run which didn't paint the romance with Kory as being the healthiest long term prospect either. I think Wolfman intended it to come across as more romantic than it ever actually did.




> To me just from the narrative from the last twenty years of stories, I would definitely say *Kory loves dick more than he loves her*.


That actually suits the old NTT run as well.

Between this and Terry Long, Kory/Donna has some appeal

----------


## Claude

New Round Robin vote up. I'd read a Seeley "Robins" series. I'd enjoy a Seeley "Robins" series. I'd buy an a omnibus of "Dick Grayson by Tim Seeley" with his Nightwing run, Nightwing vs Hush and a Robins series.

But my conscience dictated I support a Sina Grace Kyle Rayner.

----------


## Rac7d*

890ED89F-61B8-47F0-AAC7-C27D24901008.jpg890ED89F-61B8-47F0-AAC7-C27D24901008.jpg

----------


## Confuzzled

> Except not really, because bringing up irrelevancy is pointless in the first place. there is no reason for it to become irrelevant once Dick steps into the wider DCU (as evidenced by Babs being brought into the Titans show). Which he has been doing since he was Robin anyway with all the team ups with Superman and the Teen Titans, among other things. He shouldn't be restricted to the Bat-books, but wresting him from them completely is an unrealistic pipedream. Both for him and Barbara (though she too should be allowed to branch out way more than she does), but it doesn't have to be the narrative death sentence DC allows it to be either. And it's not like pairing him back up with Starfire really does much for him, in its own way it shackles him to a team book that is trapped reliving its glory days of the 80s over and over again.


Barbara making an appearance in Titans doesn't mean she will stay there permanently (as it is, people are already complaining about the number of Bat-characters making it onto the show) and she's obviously brought on as a foil to Kori and for soap opera purposes being Dick's first serious love interest. Also, how is it an "unrealistic pipedream" for Dick to be more independent from the Bat-books when he already did that to a great degree in the 80's, which, as you later pointed out yourself as the "glory days of Titans" in the same post. At least Titans have glory days unlike Bludhaven/Gotham based Nightwing. DC should just let Dick be a space voyager in his solo adventures while simultaneously overseeing an expanding roster of Titans, which I now feel DC should invest in more as they are the closest they have to the X-Men. DC is only stubborn to evolve the franchise as it's not really the 80's they want to imitate but the mega popular animated shows.




> The Peter/Gwen comparison doesn't really work in this scenario. You'd need to find a much better developed love interest than her (as a love interest and a character in her own right) to compare to Babs.


I did mention Scott/Jean and even they are now in a tie of sorts with Scott/Emma and Jean/Logan.

----------


## SiegePerilous02

> Barbara making an appearance in Titans doesn't mean she will stay there permanently (as it is, people are already complaining about the number of Bat-characters making it onto the show) and she's obviously brought on as a foil to Kori and for soap opera purposes being Dick's first serious love interest. *Also, how is it an "unrealistic pipedream" for Dick to be more independent from the Bat-books when he already did that to a great degree in the 80's, which, as you later pointed out yourself as the "glory days of Titans" in the same post.* At least Titans have glory days unlike Bludhaven/Gotham based Nightwing. DC should just let Dick be a space voyager in his solo adventures while simultaneously overseeing an expanding roster of Titans, which I now feel DC should invest in more as they are the closest they have to the X-Men. DC is only stubborn to evolve the franchise as it's not really the 80's they want to imitate but the mega popular animated shows..


Even if they are bringing in Babs for soap opera drama, the fact that they are even doing it indicates they are aware of the ship wars and want to get some of that mileage in their show. Even if it favors Kory, Babs is a presence that was probably always going to have to be addressed as far as the fanbases were concerned, even if doing it the way they will may be too much for something that should be a Titans centric show. 

Because the amount of time he spent away from the Bat-verse with the Titans is a drop in the bucket compared to the preceding decades he spent in the Bat-verse as Robin (his most important identity), and it was to the Bat-verse he returned to and found stable success with after the Titans ship sunk. DC has been chasing the NTT nostalgia off and on for decades because that's pretty much the only era that IP has going for it comics wise, and that well has run dry. I don't care for the Bludhaven stuff at all, but it was a reliable stable seller that kept Nightwing afloat whereas the Titans as a group have languished. He really should break free from both franchises and truly spread his wings, possibly with a new love interest entirely, but I can't see the Titans doing anything for him currently with how they mismanage the property and how piss poor the Rebirth attempt was. What you are saying for the Titans sounds good in theory, but good luck getting creators and fans alike to agree on what the direction of the Titnas should be because nobody has a clear idea. Down to debating if Dick's group are even too old to be Titans, and this academy thing isn't helping with that.




> I did mention Scott/Jean and even they are now in a tie of sorts with Scott/Emma and Jean/Logan.


Then that just means first loves stories can be varied and don't have to play out the same way. Peter/Gwen and Scott/Jean don't really indicate anything about how Dick/Barbara can play out.

----------


## John Venus

> I always assumed Oracle's modulator still comes off as feminine, but I guess in-universe it has to be gender neutral for secret identity purposes.
> 
> Yeah, Babs doesn't like Kori .


Even if she hides her voice, her speech patterns would give it away.  

What cracks me up is that she doesn't even try to hide her contempt;  "Bitch, go back to your planet and stay there!".  I guess this is Babs achillies heel; she's a control freak who can be possessive and manipulative. There is a reason she became Batgirl and not Robin-Girl.  Bruce and Babs are more similar than they like to believe (this is not a tactic approval of Bruce/Babs).

----------


## Confuzzled

> Even if they are bringing in Babs for soap opera drama, the fact that they are even doing it indicates they are aware of the ship wars and want to get some of that mileage in their show. Even if it favors Kory, Babs is a presence that was probably always going to have to be addressed as far as the fanbases were concerned, even if doing it the way they will may be too much for something that should be a Titans centric show.


Except now the Teen Titans/Teen Titans Go!/Titans fans will see her as "the other woman" if this is how she's being introduced to them and the Dick/Kori dynamics.




> Because the amount of time he spent away from the Bat-verse with the Titans is a drop in the bucket compared to the preceding decades he spent in the Bat-verse as Robin (his most important identity), and it was to the Bat-verse he returned to and found stable success with after the Titans ship sunk. DC has been chasing the NTT nostalgia off and on for decades because that's pretty much the only era that IP has going for it comics wise, and that well has run dry. I don't care for the Bludhaven stuff at all, but it was a reliable stable seller that kept Nightwing afloat whereas the Titans as a group have languished. He really should break free from both franchises and truly spread his wings, possibly with a new love interest entirely, but I can't see the Titans doing anything for him currently with how they mismanage the property and how piss poor the Rebirth attempt was. What you are saying for the Titans sounds good in theory, but good luck getting creators and fans alike to agree on what the direction of the Titnas should be because nobody has a clear idea. Down to debating if Dick's group are even too old to be Titans, and this academy thing isn't helping with that.


There seem to be so many subjective things here presented as objective. Even if Robin is Dick's most important role, Titans and its Hydra-tentacled media has ensured it has substantially separated him even in that capacity from Batman. Again, you keep focusing on the comics when the adaptations are where the most number of fans are present. The current Titans show solidifying Dick/Kori as OTP shows DC knows EXACTLY who their audience is and what they want. The adaptations are literally the biggest reason why editorial refuses to budge with comics Titans. In the 2010's, didn't TT sell better than the Bludhaven based books? Even if they didn't, the difference wouldn't be earth-shattering. Titans is still one of DC's biggest IPs and the one they should focus on diversifying, expanding and evolving the most to get off this Bat-crutch.





> Then that just means first loves stories can be varied and don't have to play out the same way. Peter/Gwen and Scott/Jean don't really indicate anything about how Dick/Barbara can play out.


I mean, if Dick/Babs haven't been all that captivating so far...

----------


## Restingvoice

Out of all hair styles he wore, side swept, mullet, mane, shaggy... has Dick ever wore his a manbun before Robins?

----------


## Avi

> 890ED89F-61B8-47F0-AAC7-C27D24901008.jpg


I like the dynamics. Dick's speech sounds a bit awkward though. The designs are a choice, but I like them. Dick in a man bun is amusing. Kinda suits him. This could be fun.

----------


## Frontier

> Even if she hides her voice, her speech patterns would give it away.  
> 
> What cracks me up is that she doesn't even try to hide her contempt;  "Bitch, go back to your planet and stay there!".  I guess this is Babs achillies heel; she's a control freak who can be possessive and manipulative. There is a reason she became Batgirl and not Robin-Girl.  Bruce and Babs are more similar than they like to believe (this is not a tactic approval of Bruce/Babs).


Yeah, Babs can get pretty judgemental and high-and-mighty when she wants to be.

----------


## SiegePerilous02

> There seem to be so many subjective things here presented as objective. Even if Robin is Dick's most important role, Titans and its Hydra-tentacled media has ensured it has substantially separated him even in that capacity from Batman. Again, you keep focusing on the comics when the adaptations are where the most number of fans are present. The current Titans show solidifying Dick/Kori as OTP shows DC knows EXACTLY who their audience is and what they want. The adaptations are literally the biggest reason why editorial refuses to budge with comics Titans. In the 2010's, didn't TT sell better than the Bludhaven based books? Even if they didn't, the difference wouldn't be earth-shattering. Titans is still one of DC's biggest IPs and the one they should focus on diversifying, expanding and evolving the most to get off this Bat-crutch.


It was a response to you saying Dick already escaped from the Bat-office back in the 80s, which is a comics only thing. It didn't last and the Titans haven't done much for him (comics wise) since then. If you don't care for the Bludhaven stuff, his stints as Batman II and Agent Grayson still did more for him than any modern Titans comic has. The Titans in general can't get out of their rut, to the point where their arch nemesis (Deathstroke) is a bigger deal than they are as a group. Rebirth run was a joke that treated Dick extremely poorly, and the Titans run by Winnnick before that fizzled out fairly quickly. It's hard to replicate the success of the adaptations because the adaptations have the benefit of being aimed at people who haven't read the repetitive comics over and over again, so they can take old stuff and make it fresh. 

Yes, the adaptations are a different story. And yes, naturally Kory is going to be the endgame in Titans-related adaptations like the DTVs, cartoons and the show. But it sounds like you are assuming there is only one audience that wants only one thing. I don't think the mainstream audience has such a horse in this shipping race that they are overly invested in who Dick gets with, especially as Dick isn't a character who is ever going to be limited to one version. Or one IP, he's always going to be showing up in both Batman media and Titans related media. Titans Dick is with Kory, YJ Dick is (at least so far) with Babs. Does the YJ crew not know what the audience wants or something? And Bat-films that get around to using the Bat-family are very likely going to utilize Dick and Babs as a pairing. Neither ship is ever going away and there likely won't ever be a definitive "one above all" across adaptations the way Lois is for Superman or even Catwoman is for Batman. 





> I mean, if Dick/Babs haven't been all that captivating so far...


Well, that depends on you ask. Some versions of Dick/Kory aren't always captivating either :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## Rakiduam

> It was a response to you saying Dick already escaped from the Bat-office back in the 80s, which is a comics only thing. It didn't last and the Titans haven't done much for him (comics wise) since then. If you don't care for the Bludhaven stuff, his stints as Batman II and Agent Grayson still did more for him than any modern Titans comic has. The Titans in general can't get out of their rut, to the point where their arch nemesis (Deathstroke) is a bigger deal than they are as a group. Rebirth run was a joke that treated Dick extremely poorly, and the Titans run by Winnnick before that fizzled out fairly quickly. It's hard to replicate the success of the adaptations because the adaptations have the benefit of being aimed at people who haven't read the repetitive comics over and over again, so they can take old stuff and make it fresh.


If it wasn't for the Titans Dick still would be Robin.

----------


## John Venus

The books saved the character depending on the era. Titans elevated Dick from just being Batman's side kick to being a kick ass leader who can organize a team of super humans into an efficient fighting force and evolved him into his own identity.  Then when the Titans fizzled out, the Bat-books helped modernize him, gave him an ongoing and gave him a new direction.  The 2003 show introduced Dick as leader of the Titans to a wider audience and still has a strong fan base to this day and YJ gave us a Nightwing who could be the leader of the DCU.  

It's not the Titans fault that they spent two decades under an editorial that hated them and tried to sink any efforts to make the characters grow.  :P

----------


## SiegePerilous02

> If it wasn't for the Titans Dick still would be Robin.


And that's good, but if the Bat-books hadn't helped modernize him as Nightwing he probably would have regressed back to Robin or languished along with the other Titans who weren't Wally (who lucked out in actually replacing his mentor and getting to be on the JL). The whole reason he ended up back in the Bat-books in the 90s is because the Titans were running out of steam and weren't what they once were




> The books saved the character depending on the era. Titans elevated Dick from just being Batman's side kick to being a kick ass leader who can organize a team of super humans into an efficient fighting force and evolved him into his own identity.  Then when the Titans fizzled out, the Bat-books helped modernize him, gave him an ongoing and gave him a new direction.  The 2003 show introduced Dick as leader of the Titans to a wider audience and still has a strong fan base to this day and YJ gave us a Nightwing who could be the leader of the DCU.  
> 
> It's not the Titans fault that they spent two decades under an editorial that hated them and tried to sink any efforts to make the characters grow.  :P


Yes, we just need good creative directions in either corner to pick up the slack when the other one falters, but that hasn't happened in a long while. The Titans would have benefited if the title didn't have the magic sucked out of it once Perez left. It is often compared to the X-Men, but the X-Men had Claremont go off to do some of his best stuff after Byrne left and created some other major iconic characters and storylines that keep the franchise going to this day, even when they run into their own ruts. Wolfman didn't really do that with the Titans post-Perez and the Titans have had the misfortune of an editorial that is either clueless as to what to do with them or actively hates them

----------


## Badou

The Titans are an unmitigated disaster in the comics. They have been like that for a long time and show no signs of changing. As someone that actively hates Bludhaven, and all the retread stories that surround it, I'll still take it and the Batman related stories over the Titans every time because of how poor the Titans are as a comic franchise. Not only are the Titans a disaster but they have not produced any good stories for Dick's character in over 30 years. Maybe longer if you want to get specific. Every time this topic comes up I always ask what was the last great Titans story with Dick as the main focus? No one can answer it because there haven't been any in so long. It just isn't a franchise that is able to support Dick's character and treat him well. He's constantly used as the fall guy or a side character over being what a Batman or Superman are to the JL and their stories. 




> If it wasn't for the Titans Dick still would be Robin.


I still think Dick giving up the Robin identity was the biggest mistake in the character's entire history. We had a big discussion about it before in another thread last year, so I don't want to do it again, but I do wish Dick had kept Robin for himself since he created it over having the Robin identity get turned into what it is now by being diffused across so many characters.

----------


## Rakiduam

> I still think Dick giving up the Robin identity was the biggest mistake in the character's entire history. We had a big discussion about it before in another thread last year, so I don't want to do it again, but I do wish Dick had kept Robin for himself since he created it over having the Robin identity get turned into what it is now by being diffused across so many characters.


Dick would have never, under any circumstance keep Robin for himself. Even before he become Nigtwing Jason was already using the mantle, there's not a single aspect of Dick's character that is not up for grabs to any random writer with an idea. Starfire kissing Dick at firts sight? Well that's Jason too now, Dick's friends, Dick's enemies, Dick's experiences, all is comunity propiety now.

Robin was never Dick's to keep.

----------


## Badou

> Dick would have never, under any circumstance keep Robin for himself. Even before he become Nigtwing Jason was already using the mantle, there's not a single aspect of Dick's character that is not up for grabs to any random writer with an idea. Starfire kissing Dick at firts sight? Well that's Jason too now, Dick's friends, Dick's enemies, Dick's experiences, all is comunity propiety now.
> 
> Robin was never Dick's to keep.


Jason at that time was a Dick Grayson clone basically I think. The original plan for Crisis on Infinite Earths was to deage Dick and make him Robin so the Batman office could use him again, right? But then Wolfman struck a compromise and the Titans kept Dick as Nightwing and the Batman office retooled Jason's character to be the new Robin. So there was a window for Dick to reclaim Robin for himself. 

It's just knowing what we know now with how much the Titans franchise fell off post-Crisis I wonder if Dick going back to Robin and rejoining the Batman office sooner would have been better even if he was deaged just so he could be the Robin in what would turn into the modern age of comics. I know others feel differently but given the lack of any quality stories for Dick in that whole time frame post crisis with the Titans I think it would have. Most of the iconic New Teen Titans stories had already happened before when he was Robin so it isn't like he would have missed out on anything.

----------


## John Venus

That sounds apocryphal and doesn't hold up to what we've seen in publication and in interviews with Wolfman, Perez and the Bat-writers of the time. 

Jason was introduced long before the Crisis. Wolfman began developing Dick Grayson and the Bat Offices agreed to let that evolution continue but since they considered  Robin an indispensable partner for Batman, they decided to come up with a  new one, hence Jason Todd.  Originally, he was little more than a Dick Grayson clone and I believe Dick was still Robin when he was introduced. Post Crisis they got the opportunity to give him a more unique backstory to separate him from Dick.

----------


## Badou

> That sounds apocryphal and doesn't hold up to what we've seen in publication and in interviews with Wolfman, Perez and the Bat-writers of the time. 
> 
> Jason was introduced long before the Crisis. Wolfman began developing Dick Grayson and the Bat Offices agreed to let that evolution continue but since they considered  Robin an indispensable partner for Batman, they decided to come up with a  new one, hence Jason Todd.  Originally, he was little more than a Dick Grayson clone and I believe Dick was still Robin when he was introduced. Post Crisis they got the opportunity to give him a more unique backstory to separate him from Dick.


Feel like there was another interview somewhere where they mentioned talk of making Dick Robin again post crisis since they were redoing origins, but I can't find it. The only one I can find that I remember was the one from Wolfman about the creation of Jason Todd and Nightwing. https://13thdimension.com/behind-the...-of-nightwing/

So yeah, Nightwing and Jason were both planned at the same time where Wolfman and the Batman office struck a deal for Dick to be Nightwing and for them to create a new Robin to be Batman's partner. I just don't think Wolfman moving Dick to Nightwing and taking him away from the Batman office was the best outcome in the long run knowing what we now know from the Titans. I get at the time the Titans were selling more than Batman then, but the whole franchise completely imploded and it was years and years of nothing while the Batman franchise became the premiere DC franchise over that same time. I get that I am in the minority with that opinion, but those were bleak years until the Batman office got the character back anyway.

----------


## WonderNight

Well how about a NEW team for nightwing! One not built on legacy or nostalgia, all those things listed above that worked for Dick were all new and fresh at the time. Dick Grayson is a character that moved forward but now lives off the 80s and 90s. With teen titans now being an academy book just let focus on the students with Dick teaching in the background and have nightwing on a new team for the action.

Also Dick needs to become more relevant outside out Batman fast because the way DC & WB are going Jace the new Batman will start getting the classic nightwing spot!

----------


## Restingvoice

> Well how about a NEW team for nightwing! One not built on legacy or nostalgia, all those things listed above that worked for Dick were all new and fresh at the time. Dick Grayson is a character that moved forward but now lives off the 80s and 90s. With teen titans now being an academy book just let focus on the students with Dick teaching in the background and have nightwing on a new team for the action.
> 
> Also Dick needs to become more relevant outside out Batman fast because the way DC & WB are going Jace the new Batman will start getting the classic nightwing spot!


DC/WB cancelled Didio's 5-year plan to make Batman Jace and relegated him to a digital first series for an alternate future that's not sure happening. They chickened out the same way they transported Bat Cat to a semi canon continuity work for the same reason, threatening the Sacred Bat status quo. Unless those Jace books sold massive number they're not doing anything for him beyond what they're currently doing.

----------


## SiegePerilous02

> Well how about a NEW team for nightwing! One not built on legacy or nostalgia, all those things listed above that worked for Dick were all new and fresh at the time. Dick Grayson is a character that moved forward but now lives off the 80s and 90s. With teen titans now being an academy book just let focus on the students with Dick teaching in the background and have nightwing on a new team for the action.
> 
> Also Dick needs to become more relevant outside out Batman fast because the way DC & WB are going Jace the new Batman will start getting the classic nightwing spot!


Unfortunately, I think we could have had this with Seeley had he been allowed to combine Nightwing with the globe trotting adventures of Agent 37. His first and third arcs were some of the best solo Nightwing arcs we've had. Editorially enforcing Bludhaven on him, when he was upfront about not being interested, crippled the book. 

If Nightwing needs a rogue gallery, he'd be better served having one comprised of villains who can pop up in different locations like him instead of being bound to one city (a rehash of Batman). He should have spent more time fighting Deathstroke, the Club of Villains, Circus of the Strange, Flamingo and the Fist of Cain instead of going up against Blockbuster yet again.

----------


## HsssH

Yeah, Dick could easily reuse many elements that Morrison created during his Batman epic that now are not used.

----------


## WonderNight

> DC/WB cancelled Didio's 5-year plan to make Batman Jace and relegated him to a digital first series for an alternate future that's not sure happening. They chickened out the same way they transported Bat Cat to a semi canon continuity work for the same reason, threatening the Sacred Bat status quo. Unless those Jace books sold massive number they're not doing anything for him beyond what they're currently doing.


Jace batman isn't about the comics. DC/WB will care far more for black batman over Jr batman  for the mainstream all day every day. If they can do that with superman they'll do it with batman also. It only a matter of time before WB push Jace ahead of Dick as the number two bat. Jace will get his solo movie and show before Dick.

----------


## Digifiend

There is the copyright thing to consider. Doesn't Batman's expire in a few years? And Robin would only be a couple of years after that. So it makes sense they'd want new characters ready for when Bruce and Dick become public domain.

----------


## Rac7d*

> There is the copyright thing to consider. Doesn't Batman's expire in a few years? And Robin would only be a couple of years after that. So it makes sense they'd want new characters ready for when Bruce and Dick become public domain.


the way disney is operating no one will loose their copyright

----------


## Grayson - The Dark Heir

Yeah, from what I understand, Disney just kinda puts the pressure to change how long copyrights last every few years. They don't just find loopholes for themselves, they change the laws themselves.

----------


## Superboy-Prime

> DC/WB cancelled Didio's 5-year plan to make Batman Jace and relegated him to a digital first series for an alternate future that's not sure happening. They chickened out the same way they transported Bat Cat to a semi canon continuity work for the same reason, threatening the Sacred Bat status quo. Unless those Jace books sold massive number they're not doing anything for him beyond what they're currently doing.


Joshua Williamson confirmed Jace's digital first series takes place in main continuity, Jace becomes Batman at the end of it as confirmed by the cover and ComiXology summaries, Williamson confirmed Jace is showing up in Batman, Detective Comics, and Urban Legends, and DC confirmed months back that Jace is getting a Next Batman 12-issue limited series.

So what are you talking about?

----------


## Restingvoice

> Joshua Williamson confirmed Jace's digital first series takes place in main continuity, Jace becomes Batman at the end of it as confirmed by the cover and ComiXology summaries, Williamson confirmed Jace is showing up in Batman, Detective Comics, and Urban Legends, and DC confirmed months back that Jace is getting a Next Batman 12-issue limited series.
> 
> So what are you talking about?


Oh I'm sorry, next time, I'll pay more attention Tweets about a character I'm not interested.

----------


## Rac7d*

> Yeah, from what I understand, Disney just kinda puts the pressure to change how long copyrights last every few years. They don't just find loopholes for themselves, they change the laws themselves.


If things stand they would loose Mickey in 2024 they won’t let that happen

----------


## Superboy-Prime

> Oh I'm sorry, next time, I'll pay more attention Tweets about a character I'm not interested.


I guess you being disinterested in the character is the reason you were spreading misinformation about the character. For future reference, books that take place in Future State have Future State in the title.

----------


## WonderNight

> Joshua Williamson confirmed Jace's digital first series takes place in main continuity, Jace becomes Batman at the end of it as confirmed by the cover and ComiXology summaries, Williamson confirmed Jace is showing up in Batman, Detective Comics, and Urban Legends, and DC confirmed months back that Jace is getting a Next Batman 12-issue limited series.
> 
> So what are you talking about?


Thats what I'm saying, the last thing nightwing needs is be batman lite to TWO batmen running around. Stop costing on nostalgia and something with nightwing.

----------


## Superboy-Prime

> Thats what I'm saying, the last thing nightwing needs is be batman lite to TWO batmen running around. Stop costing on nostalgia and something with nightwing.


He's not, though, he's operating in Bludhaven.

----------


## Frontier

> He's not, though, he's operating in Bludhaven.


I like Bludhaven, though that doesn't prevent "Batman-lite" (not that I think it's that big a problem for Dick, but I usually feel the minority on that front).

----------


## dietrich

> I like Bludhaven, though that doesn't prevent "Batman-lite" (not that I think it's that big a problem for Dick, but I usually feel the minority on that front).


I'll share that lonely 'minority' bench with you  :Cool: 

I liked the Bludhaven in Seeley's run and the idea of Dick occasionally doing a spy gig outside Blud that Seeley suggested.

I enjoyed the RunOffs. Had high hopes for them but that fizzled out.

----------


## Ascended

> Yeah, from what I understand, Disney just kinda puts the pressure to change how long copyrights last every few years. They don't just find loopholes for themselves, they change the laws themselves.


Well, it's not every few years. The last time copyright law was extended was 1998. 

Odds are Disney and other giant corporations will successfully lobby for another extension. However, there's the possibility that it won't play out the same way this time. The internet is a thing now in a way it wasn't back in 98, and people are more aware of public domain and what it's for, as well as what the benefits are for everybody. The legal argument for copyright extension has always been thin. If the topic catches the public's attention in the next couple years it's entirely possible that politicians, looking at the 2024 election cycle and wary of an electorate that's fed up with big business and government, won't allow another extension. 

Odds are that if copyright isn't extended, congress will still carve out some loophole or exception for characters like Mickey Mouse, in a way that doesn't earn the public's attention or ire; some minor caveat that the layman won't pick up on or even hear about until after the fact. A lot may depend on the '22 midterms and who ends up in Washington DC, as well as how the "big business" debate goes between now and then. But the chances of these characters actually entering public domain in some functional, usable form, while slim as hell, are still higher than they've ever been. So never say never! 

But even if these characters do enter the PD? Guys like Batman have grown and evolved well beyond the limited access public domain would offer. If Batman enters the PD, that doesn't mean everything Bat-related enters PD, it just means the very, earliest issues would be available for use, and those early Golden Age comics are so different from how the world thinks of "Batman" today that it might as well be a completely different, original character. Which is either a pro or a con, depending on how you look at it I guess.

----------


## Starrius

> She's 6ft tall and is orange. She literally shines.



She looks more golden.
She has been referred to as golden in the comics.
There is a reason why Victor and Garfield called her "Goldie" a lot.
When she was dating Franklin Crandall, he told her that he chalked up her skin to being a Mediterranean Tan
In some comic issues after she broke up with Dick, she was more like a golden brown 

golden skin tone is actually a tone that exists  
I am a multiracial person that has light brown skin with golden overtone



6 ft woman is not out of the ordinary height for a woman. 
it's not uncommon for models which Kory has been in the comics

----------


## Starrius

> In what context we talking about here? 
> 
> I think Pre-Crisis the biggest seed for it was Babs planting one on Robin to distract him or shut him up. 
> 
> In Post-Crisis, when they aged Babs down a tad, it was established that Dick had a major crush on her when she first started out and there was a lot of sexual tension between them throughout their careers before Dick moved onto the Titans and got with Starfire, but there was still that tension there. 
> 
> They didn't start seriously dating until the Dixon-era Nightwing when Babs was Oracle although (if you take that annual as fact) the first time they had sex together was after she got paralyzed and Dick visited her (to tell her about his wedding to Kori). 
> 
> New 52 it gets kind of murkier. It was basically the same Post-Crisis where they were the same age and had a lot of sexual tension that carried on into adulthood, but it doesn't seem like they ever seriously dated for a long period of time but have kissed and had sex at different periods in time.
> ...


That retcon of Dick having sex with Babs the night before his wedding with Kory is one of the reasons why I end up strongly dislike Dick/Babs. 
Dick was not shown to have any romantic feelings for Babs in the Wolfman 1980s/1990s comics before Kory broke up with him. 
He also had two girlfriends before he got in a relationship with Kory.

----------


## Godlike13

> She looks more golden.
> She has been referred to as golden in the comics.
> There is a reason why Victor and Garfield called her "Goldie" a lot.
> When she was dating Franklin Crandall, he told her that he chalked up her skin to being a Mediterranean Tan
> In some comic issues after she broke up with Dick, she was more like a golden brown 
> 
> golden skin tone is actually a tone that exists  
> I am a multiracial person that has light brown skin with golden overtone
> 
> ...


And there's a reason she's called Starfire. She themed after the sun. Trying to play off Starfire as an ordinary 6ft tall women with a Mediterranean Tan is ridiculous. As if that is even ordinary.

----------


## Frontier

> That retcon of Dick having sex with Babs the night before his wedding with Kory is one of the reasons why I end up strongly dislike Dick/Babs. 
> Dick was not shown to have any romantic feelings for Babs in the Wolfman 1980s/1990s comics before Kory broke up with him. 
> He also had two girlfriends before he got in a relationship with Kory.


And then _Nightwing Year One_ shows he was this close to cheating on her with Babs again until Babs put a stop to it. 

Granted that's all retroactive since a lot of Dick and Babs' Post-Crisis relationship became retcons, but still.

----------


## John Venus

Yeah, I don't mind Dick developing feelings for Babs after he became Nightwing (he seems the type to fall in love too easily anyway) but I got annoyed when Dixon and co acted like Dicks & Babs were always meant to be and that Kory was just a fling. Despite the fact that Kory and Dick's romance developed more organically and they had to retcon a lot of history to make Dick/Babs work.

----------


## DragonPiece

James Tynion revealed on twitter he and mikel janin were originally going to relaunch nightwing after forever evil, but the pitch was rejected by DC and turned into grayon instead: https://twitter.com/JamesTheFourth/s...77114021539846

Really interesting twitter thread(with some never before seen art!)

----------


## Godlike13

Thank god for Grayson.

----------


## SiegePerilous02

> And then _Nightwing Year One_ shows he was this close to cheating on her with Babs again until Babs put a stop to it. 
> 
> Granted that's all retroactive since a lot of Dick and Babs' Post-Crisis relationship became retcons, but still.





> Yeah, I don't mind Dick developing feelings for Babs after he became Nightwing (he seems the type to fall in love too easily anyway) but I got annoyed when Dixon and co acted like Dicks & Babs were always meant to be and that Kory was just a fling. Despite the fact that Kory and Dick's romance developed more organically and they had to retcon a lot of history to make Dick/Babs work.


Dixon seemed to try to downplay the Titans stuff in general from what I recall. And look, they weren't all that hot anymore, but retconning a more intense romance with Babs pre-break up with Kory and having Dick say stuff like "I never intended to stick around as long as I did" is taking it way too far.

That and_ Nightwing: Year One_ is just horrendous just for how it handles Bruce. It's never been a good substitute for just reading _the Judas Contract_.

----------


## Rac7d*

> James Tynion revealed on twitter he and mikel janin were originally going to relaunch nightwing after forever evil, but the pitch was rejected by DC and turned into grayon instead: https://twitter.com/JamesTheFourth/s...77114021539846
> 
> Really interesting twitter thread(with some never before seen art!)


I wish we got that original funeral

----------


## Frontier

> Dixon seemed to try to downplay the Titans stuff in general from what I recall. And look, they weren't all that hot anymore, but retconning a more intense romance with Babs pre-break up with Kory and having Dick say stuff like "I never intended to stick around as long as I did" is taking it way too far.
> 
> That and_ Nightwing: Year One_ is just horrendous just for how it handles Bruce. It's never been a good substitute for just reading _the Judas Contract_.


I like to think of it and Judas Contract in tandem, but even if Bruce comes off kind of bad (not the worst) I think it's still a solid story. 

In context he and Babs flirted hard as teenagers but he got more passionate with Kory, like a college romance.

----------


## HsssH

> James Tynion revealed on twitter he and mikel janin were originally going to relaunch nightwing after forever evil, but the pitch was rejected by DC and turned into grayon instead: https://twitter.com/JamesTheFourth/s...77114021539846
> 
> Really interesting twitter thread(with some never before seen art!)


We dodged a bullet there.

----------


## DragonPiece

> We dodged a bullet there.


Yeah, but seeing how much editorial denied him really does show such a contrast compared to how editorial is currently running with all these fan favorite characters returning lately.

----------


## HsssH

I suspect that it was Johns who blocked Owlman's usage? Because that sounds kinda same as the situation Shazam was in till very recently.

----------


## Claude

> I suspect that it was Johns who blocked Owlman's usage? Because that sounds kinda same as the situation Shazam was in till very recently.



Which is odd, because Johns seems to have spent some time in Forever Evil and its tie ins establishing an Owlman/Nightwing relationship that's right in his wheelhouse - then dropping it completely.

On paper, the original idea has stuff going for it - it's no Grayson, and the Nolan movie "synergy" now seems hilariously dated, but "Dick has to keep his head down and not be a hero, because he's circling a universe-threatening figure" has potential. But it sounds like the pitch was gutted long before Tynion walked.

Remember when it looked like the last few issues of Higgins time on the book were going to be "Dick on the run during Forever Evil" tie-ins? It's weird how that now mostly rightly forgotten event kept nearly being Dicks Big Push, then fizzled entirely.

----------


## Badou

I don't think Johns cared. After he exposed Dick's identity to the world in Forever Evil Johns showed no interest in what DC did with Dick's character. He didn't care and the burden of what to do with Dick fell on the Batman editorial after Johns tossed his mess into their lap. At that time I don't think Snyder and the Bat editors wanted to deal with fallout of Dick's identity being exposed to the world. So the original plan was to have Dick wear a blonde wig (you see that in the Batman Eternal Thanksgiving promo), pretend to be dead, and run around in this different Nightwing costume with Tynion writing the Nightwing book as we see in the new images. The original Bleedingcool leak was that Tynion was going to write the Nightwing series, and they even had that funeral issue completely drawn before scrapping the concept for the Grayson pitch, so the Batman editors switched plans really late into the process. They had that messy Nightwing #30 by King and Seely to try and act as a bridge to the Grayson series that had 3 different stories in it. 

I still think the main reason for going with the Grayson idea was because Snyder and the Bat editors didn't want to deal with the fallout of Dick's identity being exposed to the world. Realistically this event should have had BIG impact on the Batman mythos, especially if Dick was still in Gotham as Nightwing, but dealing with it properly conflicted with what Snyder and the Bat editors wanted to do with the ongoing Batman story. They didn't want to change plans and include this major plot all of a sudden. So their solution was to remove Dick from the Nightwing identity and move him across the ocean where they could ignore the exposed identity thing. Which worked as the identity thing really had zero effect on anything and "Dick's death" became the bigger issue to overwrite the exposed identity problem. To this day it made no sense for Dick to lie to and pretend to be dead to the Batman family because in the end Dick's identity being exposed lead to nothing. No fallout with intense media pressure and no villains using the information to get to the Batman family. Nothing happened. Which tells me that no one in the Batman office wanted to deal with it. 

Also speaking of Tynion in some interview before all this he talked about how he didn't think Dick worked as a solo character. So I remember me and others being upset he was the one rumored to be writing Nightwing's solo after Forever Evil when he said he didn't think the character worked as a solo character. But in the end we dodged a big bullet with that series and got the Grayson one instead.

----------


## HsssH

> Which is odd, because Johns seems to have spent some time in Forever Evil and its tie ins establishing an Owlman/Nightwing relationship that's right in his wheelhouse - then dropping it completely.


Same thing happened with other CSA's characters, I think none of them appeared after FE concluded till Johns eventually killed them in Darkseid War.

If not Johns then maybe it was Bat editors who just didn't want to do anything with Earth-3 Owlman since Court of Owls was still this new hot thing at the time and it was bound to create some confusion.

----------


## dietrich

> James Tynion revealed on twitter he and mikel janin were originally going to relaunch nightwing after forever evil, but the pitch was rejected by DC and turned into grayon instead: https://twitter.com/JamesTheFourth/s...77114021539846
> 
> Really interesting twitter thread(with some never before seen art!)


Grayson is a series that I've reread countless times so I'm glad DC rejected Tynion's pitch not to mention I don't want a the guy who wrote Dick stating that Tim was demonstrably smarter than him writing the character.

----------


## Pohzee

> Grayson is a series that I've reread countless times so I'm glad DC rejected Tynion's pitch not to mention I don't want a the guy who wrote Dick stating that Tim was demonstrably smarter than him writing the character.


I'd say that there's at least a 50/50 chance that Tom Taylor does that in the very next issue of Nightwing. And a 60/40 chance that Tom King would also write something like this.

----------


## Claude

> I'd say that there's at least a 50/50 chance that Tom Taylor does that in the very next issue of Nightwing. And a 60/40 chance that Tom King would also write something like this.



Doesn't Snyder do it too - in either Black Mirror or Gates Of Gotham?

I don't mind it, tbh - Dick's quite self-effacing and has a high regard for Tim. It's not like an Official DC Top Trumps statement.

If Tim, or heaven-forbid, *Bruce* said it? Totally different thing,and I'd be burning down houses with the rest of you.

----------


## dietrich

> I'd say that there's at least a 50/50 chance that Tom Taylor does that in the very next issue of Nightwing. And a 60/40 chance that Tom King would also write something like this.


Tom King wrote something like that but it was clearly a joke. [that tec issue where Damian says something about Dick is the 13th best detective in the family or something stupid like that]

That isn't the same as having Dick make such a statement in a serious manner in a Comic meant to celebrate him.

Tom Taylor I'd rather not assume he hasn't done that yet. Point still remains I'm glad Tynion didn't get Nightwing

----------


## OBrianTallent

> I don't think Johns cared. After he exposed Dick's identity to the world in Forever Evil Johns showed no interest in what DC did with Dick's character. He didn't care and the burden of what to do with Dick fell on the Batman editorial after Johns tossed his mess into their lap. At that time I don't think Snyder and the Bat editors wanted to deal with fallout of Dick's identity being exposed to the world. So the original plan was to have Dick wear a blonde wig (you see that in the Batman Eternal Thanksgiving promo), pretend to be dead, and run around in this different Nightwing costume with Tynion writing the Nightwing book as we see in the new images. The original Bleedingcool leak was that Tynion was going to write the Nightwing series, and they even had that funeral issue completely drawn before scrapping the concept for the Grayson pitch, so the Batman editors switched plans really late into the process. They had that messy Nightwing #30 by King and Seely to try and act as a bridge to the Grayson series that had 3 different stories in it. 
> 
> I still think the main reason for going with the Grayson idea was because Snyder and the Bat editors didn't want to deal with the fallout of Dick's identity being exposed to the world. Realistically this event should have had BIG impact on the Batman mythos, especially if Dick was still in Gotham as Nightwing, but dealing with it properly conflicted with what Snyder and the Bat editors wanted to do with the ongoing Batman story. They didn't want to change plans and include this major plot all of a sudden. So their solution was to remove Dick from the Nightwing identity and move him across the ocean where they could ignore the exposed identity thing. Which worked as the identity thing really had zero effect on anything and "Dick's death" became the bigger issue to overwrite the exposed identity problem. To this day it made no sense for Dick to lie to and pretend to be dead to the Batman family because in the end Dick's identity being exposed lead to nothing. No fallout with intense media pressure and no villains using the information to get to the Batman family. Nothing happened. Which tells me that no one in the Batman office wanted to deal with it. 
> 
> Also speaking of Tynion in some interview before all this he talked about how he didn't think Dick worked as a solo character. So I remember me and others being upset he was the one rumored to be writing Nightwing's solo after Forever Evil when he said he didn't think the character worked as a solo character. But in the end we dodged a big bullet with that series and got the Grayson one instead.


It wasn't so much that Johns didn't care what happened to Dick as he cared quite a bit.  There was a lot of talk and rumor around that time, Didio's edict for FE was to kill Dick.  John's again inteceeded on The character's behalf and won that battle.

----------


## Badou

> It wasn't so much that Johns didn't care what happened to Dick as he cared quite a bit.  There was a lot of talk and rumor around that time, Didio's edict for FE was to kill Dick.  John's again inteceeded on The character's behalf and won that battle.


I don't remember anything about killing Dick in Forever Evil and I followed all the information around it pretty closely I feel like. Johns wanted to expose Dick's identity to the world as the BIG shocking moment to set up the Forever Evil event and then spent the rest of the story doing nothing with the character outside of having him chained to a chair. I don't think Johns cared at all about Dick's character in the story and it was all meant to serve as motivation for Bruce, and once Forever Evil was over Johns discarded Dick's storyline and tossed it back to the Batman office to deal with. 

I'm no fan of Didio, but he apparently was one of the ones that helped come up with the spy pitch to write out Dick's character from the Batman books I believe.

----------


## HsssH

> Tom King wrote something like that but it was clearly a joke. [that tec issue where Damian says something about Dick is the 13th best detective in the family or something stupid like that]


Well it is Damian, I think it is very in character for him to say something like that.

As for Johns caring about Dick, we hear that a lot, but somehow he had done very little with him over the years when you compare it to other characters he cares about.

----------


## Rac7d*

After calming down three weeks later from the starfire/Grayson page
Here we are 
15775B3C-8026-4902-90E6-441CD4BC3B1E.jpg

----------


## Godlike13

I actually think Johns recognized Dick needed his current world blew up. He had more ideas for Dick and Owlman in FE, but never got to really fleshing out those ideas. But nonetheless what the Bat office was doing, and apparently was going to do, was a whole lot of nothing. They were just spinning their wheels. Sweeping things under the rug was pretty much the entire philosophy with Dick’s after the New 52. So of course that’s what they wanted to do after FE. That’s all they did prior to it. Luckily they accidentally double booked themselves into something cool.

----------


## Godlike13

#80 preview 
https://mobile.twitter.com/Bruno_Red...95389081325571

So him being a cop is back in.

----------


## Pohzee

That is such a bad look.

----------


## Rac7d*

> #80 preview 
> https://mobile.twitter.com/Bruno_Red...95389081325571
> 
> So him being a cop is back in.


was it ever out?

----------


## Frontier

Is Babs going to get along with Bludhaven PD? 



> was it ever out?


Well, Rebirth-wise because he came to Bludhaven for the first time within that continuity, but I guess that's altered now.

----------


## Rac7d*

> Is Babs going to get along with Bludhaven PD? 
> 
> Well, Rebirth-wise because he came to Bludhaven for the first time within that continuity, but I guess that's altered now.


I thought everything is cannon post death metal
and with Lian making him almost 30 he has the timeline space for it

----------


## Drako

Cover for issue 83

----------


## Rac7d*

> Even if she hides her voice, her speech patterns would give it away.  
> 
> What cracks me up is that she doesn't even try to hide her contempt;  "Bitch, go back to your planet and stay there!".  I guess this is Babs achillies heel; she's a control freak who can be possessive and manipulative. There is a reason she became Batgirl and not Robin-Girl.  Bruce and Babs are more similar than they like to believe (this is not a tactic approval of Bruce/Babs).


Bruce said that not her, and its one his worst moments in the history of batman

----------


## dietrich

> Cover for issue 83


The covers for Taylor's run have been spectacular. Every single one.

----------


## Grayson - The Dark Heir

> That is such a bad look.


To be fair, what Dick says in response to the cops asking about leaving the BPD is *spoilers:*
 that there were "too many criminals", which to me sounds a lot like Dick taking a jab at the actual police force instead of Bludhaven.
*end of spoilers* If that means Dick's going to have an interesting relationship with the BPD as Dick Grayson (and not just as Nightwing), that's good news to me.

----------


## Twice-named

> To be fair, what Dick says in response to the cops asking about leaving the BPD is *spoilers:*
>  that there were "too many criminals", which to me sounds a lot like Dick taking a jab at the actual police force instead of Bludhaven.
> *end of spoilers*


Agreed. 

I would love to see Amy Rohrbach come back. I really liked her character.

Whatever happened to Sonia Zucco?

----------


## Rakiduam

Politics? Wow! you can feel the action radiating from the pages already.

----------


## Rac7d*

> Politics? Wow! you can feel the action radiating from the pages already.


we got a mystery on our hands gang

----------


## Badou

They are really going all out with the Dixon nostalgia. Some get their wish and Dick was a cop again. So far the art is really carrying this run heavily. Also with the whole "everything is canon" thing we've run into the exact problem many thought would happen. Rebirth and pre-New52 can't really both exist because both tell the story of Dick's first time in Bludhaven, but I guess it will just be ignored. 




> I actually think Johns recognized Dick needed his current world blew up. He had more ideas for Dick and Owlman in FE, but never got to really fleshing out those ideas. But nonetheless what the Bat office was doing, and apparently was going to do, was a whole lot of nothing. They were just spinning their wheels. Sweeping things under the rug was pretty much the entire philosophy with Dicks after the New 52. So of course thats what they wanted to do after FE. Thats all they did prior to it. Luckily they accidentally double booked themselves into something cool.


If Johns cared he could have incorporated Dick and Owlman's story into his JL run after Forever Evil. You act like he couldn't. He's the one that exposed his identity in the first place. If he wanted to he would have continued the story and taken control of it, but he didn't care enough and dropped it completely. Even him having Lex find out Bruce was Batman from it basically went nowhere. He was more interested in writing Lex as a superhero than anything.

----------


## Vordan

Johns frequently set plotlines up that he never bothered to follow through on himself. New Krypton for Superman, Colds heist & Owlmans schemes for JL, Diana having a twin brother. Hed either abandon them or pawn them off to someone else to focus on the stuff he cared about. Dick was just another casualty. That said I wouldnt be surprised if outing Dick was a compromise with Didio who Im sure was pushing to kill him off for real. Johns made a sacrifice before by killing Conner instead of Dick in Infinite Frontier.

----------


## HsssH

I hope that at some point people will stop using Didio as a shield to rationalise why some writer doing dumb shit was ok.

----------


## Frontier

> Cover for issue 83


How many excuses can one run make to show Dick shirtless  :Stick Out Tongue: ? 



> To be fair, what Dick says in response to the cops asking about leaving the BPD is *spoilers:*
>  that there were "too many criminals", which to me sounds a lot like Dick taking a jab at the actual police force instead of Bludhaven.
> *end of spoilers* If that means Dick's going to have an interesting relationship with the BPD as Dick Grayson (and not just as Nightwing), that's good news to me.


*spoilers:*
But that was true for the Post-Crisis Bludhaven PD too.
*end of spoilers*

----------


## Lady Nightwing

I know a lot of people hate that Dick was a cop, I'm fine with it. He was trying to stop the rampant corruption in the force, which felt like it was true to his character to me. I hope Svoboda shows up. I found her interesting

----------


## Twice-named

> I know a lot of people hate that Dick was a cop, I'm fine with it. He was trying to stop the rampant corruption in the force, which felt like it was true to his character to me. I hope Svoboda shows up. I found her interesting


Yeah, I liked when Dick was a cop. I find it boring when characters are just “superheroing” and nothing else. So, IMO, bring on the romance, bring on Dick fighting corruption as a cop.

----------


## John Venus

I can buy Dick getting a desk job at a police department while also being Nightwing but him being Nightwing on top of being an active duty police officer? Nah.

----------


## WonderNight

Isn't dick the guy who hated school because of how bored he was in class room and needed action? I don't see dick grayson with a desk job. To me dick is supposed to be a man of action and adventure.

----------


## Rac7d*

> Isn't dick the guy who hated school because of how bored he was in class room and needed action? I don't see dick grayson with a desk job. To me dick is supposed to be a man of action and adventure.


He’s almost 30 now people change

----------


## John Venus

He will be a man of action when he is out as Nightwing. If he is a man of action in both his civilian and superhero life, then he will quickly turn into the man of burn outs.

----------


## Frontier

> Isn't dick the guy who hated school because of how bored he was in class room and needed action? I don't see dick grayson with a desk job. To me dick is supposed to be a man of action and adventure.


I think he appreciated the girls...

----------


## WonderNight

> He’s almost 30 now people change


No they settle. Wasn't just in rebirth his first night in bludhaven he was rolling on the floor from boredom before hitting the streets as nightwing.

----------


## Fergus

> No they settle. Wasn't just in rebirth his first night in bludhaven he was rolling on the floor from boredom before hitting the streets as nightwing.


Even action heroes need rest and a good amount of a crime fighters work involves investigations which is an excellent reason why he would take a desk job as a cop.

It compliments his role as Nightwing.

Dick is more than action and adventure. He is also a detective.

Nightwing doesn't just deal with bad guys he see's committing crimes on the street. He works cases

----------


## Rac7d*

> Even action heroes need rest and a good amount of a crime fighters work involves investigations which is an excellent reason why he would take a desk job as a cop.
> 
> It compliments his role as Nightwing.
> 
> Dick is more than action and adventure. He is also a detective.
> 
> Nightwing doesn't just deal with bad guys he see's committing crimes on the street. He works cases


This Nightwing wants to do more as Dick Grayson so why not in becoming a representative for the community

----------


## Badou

I can't believe people are arguing for Dick to get some kind of desk job. It feels completely counter to the kind of person he is. He's the kid that grew up in a traveling circus and then became a superhero. Being stuck behind a desk pushing papers seems like it would be a nightmare for him.

----------


## HsssH

One of my hopes with Alfred's money was that Dick wouldn't have to work a day job, but no, literally nothing changes.

----------


## sifighter

.....Yeah I’m going with the obvious Joke reference when it comes to the brand new villain.

----------


## Godlike13

I really liked #80. I think Taylor recognizes that Redondo is operating on another level here and is giving him room to breath. Not overloading pages with boxes telling readers what’s happening, but instead trusting the art to display what’s happening to readers. And when it’s this good, that’s a great call. Cause Redondo is killing it. The fight scenes, the character expressions, the character designs, it’s outstanding. All the Bludhaven stuff aside, not that I personally mind it, when the creative team is operating in synch like this it’s very hard not to appreciate a comic.

----------


## dropkickjake

Yeah, I dug this issue. I've said at length that street level, bat family rooted, Bludhaven centric Nightwing isn't really my hopes and dreams for the character, but I definitely think this is well executed. First few issues lacked in action, which I'm willing to forgive. This one had a bit more, which was welcome. I really enjoyed all the interaction with Tim and Babs. I'm not angry about the Babs will they won't they. This at least had some good paneling/spacing/timing about it. Also... Dick has a law degree? I guess *everything* really did happen.

----------


## Drako

I loved, best issue of the three we had until now. 
Also, i really like the new ways Redondo is using the escrima sticks.

----------


## AdjectiveNoun

I'm glad the 'did Dick cancel his cards?' thread got resolved. (I say this in jest, I brought it up.)

I really liked the panel where Dick threw the stick and Tim caught it.

----------


## Avi

I agree. Best Issue so far. Tim and Babs were used well and I like that they brought back Dick's Law education and his time in the police. Tim's and Dick's fight against Brutale and Electrocutioner was fantastic. 

What I don't quite enjoy about the art are the more stylized panels. While chibi Babs worked well, the "Dick assembles a staff" was kinda awkward, imo.

Also this:




> Yeah, I dug this issue. *I've said at length that street level, bat family rooted, Bludhaven centric Nightwing isn't really my hopes and dreams for the character,* but I definitely think this is well executed. First few issues lacked in action, which I'm willing to forgive. This one had a bit more, which was welcome. I really enjoyed all the interaction with Tim and Babs. I'm not angry about the Babs will they won't they. This at least had some good paneling/spacing/timing about it. Also... Dick has a law degree? I guess *everything* really did happen.

----------


## HsssH

Same here, I don't like the direction, but you look at what Redondo is doing and its hard not to praise the book. How long before he is moved to a bigger book?

Also, cringed hard at the line about Tim being the best Robin.

----------


## Rakiduam

Such a nice art wasted in such an aggressively mediocre story. It's so stuck in the 90's that forgot Demian existed.

----------


## dropkickjake

> Also, cringed hard at the line about Tim being the best Robin.


It makes sense for me that Dick would say this about Tim. Definitely double took at the line at first, too. I can just see Dick being this affirming towards Tim.

----------


## Rakiduam

> It makes sense for me that Dick would say this about Tim. Definitely double took at the line at first, too. I can just see Dick being this affirming towards Tim.


It made sense before, now Tim shouldn't need these kind of reaffirmation of Dick and Dick should know better than saying them.

----------


## Frontier

I have to wonder what Dick and Babs have done with having a law degree  :Stick Out Tongue: .

----------


## SanityOrMadness

> It made sense before, now Tim shouldn't need these kind of reaffirmation of Dick and Dick should know better than saying them.


Tim didn't hear it, it was in Dick's narration, not said aloud.

----------


## HsssH

Its not that Tim needs this in universe, but Tim as a character needs to be proped up because he isn't very good or interesting character.

----------


## Frontier

> Its not that Tim needs this in universe, but Tim as a character needs to be proped up because he isn't very good or interesting character.


I think it's less that and more just how DC's been squandering or not doing right by Tim for a while, but I guess how you look at it depends on you personal opinion of Tim as a character.

----------


## Darkcrusade25

> Such a nice art wasted in such an aggressively mediocre story. It's so stuck in the 90's that forgot Demian existed.


Well Damian technically left the Bat family for now and cant be traced so I think Tims use works well for this issue.

Plus Tom Taylor did have ppl on Twitter asking for Tim so he gave some fan service. But NGL I felt the 90s/00s vibe and loved it.

----------


## Rakiduam

> Well Damian technically left the Bat family for now and can’t be traced so I think Tim’s use works well for this issue.
> 
> Plus Tom Taylor did have ppl on Twitter asking for Tim so he gave some fan service. But NGL I felt the 90s/00s vibe and loved it.


It's a regression. I hate it. It'ss so unambitious, and boring and average. Just a staled waste of characters and art in nothing but fanservice, all in a time where DC only seems to have value as a IP generator, why would they keep the book around when is the same story from 3 decades ago?

----------


## Lady Nightwing

Bruno Redondo is ridiculously talented. The art is just phenomenal. I thought this issue was much better than the last 2. Was Brutale in the tournament with Robin? I can't remember. Heartless looks cool.

I could have done with out the Tim is the best thing but I do think that's something Dick might believe, If that makes sense.

----------


## Robotman

I loved this issue. Redondo is killing it on art. Did anyone else catch what was on Dick’s coffee mug? 

I’ve said it many times but Nightwing desperately needs some more rogues. Heartless is off to a pretty good start. Great design. 

I think Taylor and Williamson’s editors should have had a discussion about Damian and Dick both dealing with new characters that rip out hearts.

----------


## dietrich

> *I'd say that there's at least a 50/50 chance that Tom Taylor does that in the very next issue of Nightwing*. And a 60/40 chance that Tom King would also write something like this.



Welp you called it.

----------


## dietrich

> I loved, best issue of the three we had until now. 
> Also, i really like the new ways Redondo is using the escrima sticks.


The new addition of having them turn into a Bo is a great touch esp with that being Tim signature weapon.

----------


## Frontier

> The new addition of having them turn into a Bo is a great touch esp with that being Tim signature weapon.


And Dick having used a bo-staff in adaptions several times over.

----------


## Avi

> I loved this issue. Redondo is killing it on art. Did anyone else catch what was on Dicks coffee mug? 
> 
> Ive said it many times but Nightwing desperately needs some more rogues. Heartless is off to a pretty good start. Great design. 
> 
> *I think Taylor and Williamsons editors should have had a discussion about Damian and Dick both dealing with new characters that rip out hearts.*


Thought so as well when I saw what Flatline does. It's also quite amusing to me that there is a Wonder Woman: Heartless audio book being released right now.

Anyway, Heartless seems to operate quite differently. And his victims were all men so far. I think Flatline doesn't have a murder preference.

----------


## Digifiend

Maybe Flatline also knows that she can get away with it because of where she is... I mean, there's a reason they call the organisers the League of LAZARUS. Anyone who dies in the tournament just gets a dip in a Lazarus Pit *spoilers:*
(which I'm sure we'll see happen to Damian in Robin #2).
*end of spoilers*




> To be fair, what Dick says in response to the cops asking about leaving the BPD is *spoilers:*
>  that there were "too many criminals", which to me sounds a lot like Dick taking a jab at the actual police force instead of Bludhaven.
> *end of spoilers* If that means Dick's going to have an interesting relationship with the BPD as Dick Grayson (and not just as Nightwing), that's good news to me.


Doesn't Dick already have three friends on the force, even disregarding his colleagues from his own time as a cop? Three of the Ric era Nightwings were cops (the fourth was a firefighter).

----------


## Godlike13

Those were the Cabbies friends, not Dicks. Part of the point of a run like this is to get people to try and forget about the Ric era.

----------


## AdjectiveNoun

> I loved this issue. Redondo is killing it on art. Did anyone else catch what was on Dick’s coffee mug?


Oh yeah, Adam West Batman with the bomb!

----------


## Avi

> Those were the Cabbie’s “friends”, not Dick’s. Part of the point of a run like this is to get people to try and forget about the Ric era.


All the more reason to bring back Malloy and Amy and to not forget that Svoboda exists.

----------


## Rac7d*

> All the more reason to bring back Malloy and Amy and to not forget that Svoboda exists.


If he continues down the road of activism then they might show up eventually

----------


## WonderNight

> It's a regression. I hate it. It'ss so unambitious, and boring and average. Just a staled waste of characters and art in nothing but fanservice, all in a time where DC only seems to have value as a IP generator, why would they keep the book around when is the same story from 3 decades ago?


I know right! Im glad that people are enjoying the book and the art is fantastic but I don't believe this is a good direction for nightwing in the long run. It's too bat centric and grounded like all of the other bat books. Its not giving nightwing his niche outside of batman but under batman no different than any other bat sidekick and that going to hurt dick in the long run.

Now with Jace getting his solo batman book and there now being two Batman. Does this make into nightwing batman extra lite? :Confused:

----------


## Rac7d*

> I know right! Im glad that people are enjoying the book and the art is fantastic but I don't believe this is a good direction for nightwing in the long run. It's too bat centric and grounded like all of the other bat books. Its not giving nightwing his niche outside of batman but under batman no different than any other bat sidekick and that going to hurt dick in the long run.
> 
> Now with Jace getting his solo batman book and there now being two Batman. Does this make into nightwing batman extra lite?


no it means he free of the reposiblity of the mantle, however, he is still head of the family since they dont know Jace and wont follow and yahoo in the suit

----------


## Rac7d*

https://twitter.com/mattsheehantv/st...603268610?s=21

----------


## Rac7d*

FCCB882F-5291-42ED-B901-60F2AEE2EC0B.jpg 
From Batman 110

----------


## Frontier

> FCCB882F-5291-42ED-B901-60F2AEE2EC0B.jpg 
> From Batman 110


Dynamic art  :Smile: .

----------


## The World

> FCCB882F-5291-42ED-B901-60F2AEE2EC0B.jpg 
> From Batman 110


His leg kind of looks crushed.

----------


## Lazurus33

DVqpTUseHUNpeLgpYS3jJ4.jpgBmQoYrpKvRPYsYMupHhAW4.jpg

https://www.gamesradar.com/the-night...d-mikel-janin/

----------


## Twice-named

The art is amazing but Tynion has never done it for me and his Detective Comics run left a bad taste in my mouth. So, I don’t feel like I missed out.

----------


## Frontier

> DVqpTUseHUNpeLgpYS3jJ4.jpgBmQoYrpKvRPYsYMupHhAW4.jpg
> 
> https://www.gamesradar.com/the-night...d-mikel-janin/


I don't think this would've been a worthy replacement for _Grayson_ but I don't think it would've been terrible.

----------


## Rac7d*

FA6C865D-E90C-467C-B3BA-C9BF790D295E.jpg
AE4413D7-DDE7-499A-BCDC-1F8AB96922BA.jpg

----------


## Avi

> DVqpTUseHUNpeLgpYS3jJ4.jpgBmQoYrpKvRPYsYMupHhAW4.jpg
> 
> https://www.gamesradar.com/the-night...d-mikel-janin/


Huh... No, I think I'll forever be glad we got Grayson instead of anything else. Another/concluding interaction between Owlman and Dick is the only thing I like about this pitch. And Tynion trying to bring back the blue as well. Ironic that Didio did that himself two years later.

Even after all these years I still don't think Tynion actually wants to write Dick Grayson. This all sounds more like what Ric Grayson ended up being. It would have been better, I guess, but who knows. Maybe Editorial used Tynion's old pitch as a blue print and then made it worse.

As for the costume design... my first thought was that Mikel Janín did a Nightwing/Daredevil amalgam version for fun. I guess that would have been the other Nightwing's costume?

----------


## Pohzee

That costume with the half cowl, scales, and broad chevron actually looks a lot like Raptor- in Janin's image at least.

----------


## Hypo

The King Shark FCBD story will feature a character from Tim Seeley's Nightwing run.

----------


## Frontier

> The King Shark FCBD story will feature a character from Tim Seeley's Nightwing run.


One of the Run Offs, I'd assume.

----------


## OBrianTallent

> FA6C865D-E90C-467C-B3BA-C9BF790D295E.jpg
> AE4413D7-DDE7-499A-BCDC-1F8AB96922BA.jpg


That mock cover is hilarious!  I would love if they actually did something like that!

----------


## Drako

> One of the Run Offs, I'd assume.


Maybe it's Orca?

The funny part is that Nightwing had a Shark character during Sam Humphries arc, Guppy.

Off topic: Nightwing is in second place of the Best Sellers on Comixology.



https://www.comixology.com/comics-best-sellers

----------


## Frontier

> Maybe it's Orca?
> 
> The funny part is that Nightwing had a Shark character during Sam Humphries arc, Guppy.
> 
> Off topic: Nightwing is in second place of the Best Sellers on Comixology.
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.comixology.com/comics-best-sellers


That was my thought.

Coll about sales  :Smile: .

----------


## Ascended

Glad #80 is doing so well online. Dick outselling the League, an Avengers event, and a fresh #1 featuring a hot new Wonder ain't nothing to shrug off.

My LCS finally (FINALLY) got my copy of 79 a f**king month late, and it was a fine enough issue; a decent slice of life kinda thing and well set within the retro Dixon framework that Taylor is playing with. Still enjoying what Taylor is putting down, even if a Dixon redux isn't what I really want.

Of course, the distributor screwed up and didn't deliver any DC comics last week, so I've yet to get my hands on 80.  :Mad:

----------


## Vordan

> Maybe it's Orca?
> 
> The funny part is that Nightwing had a Shark character during Sam Humphries arc, Guppy.
> 
> Off topic: Nightwing is in second place of the Best Sellers on Comixology.
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.comixology.com/comics-best-sellers


Taylor is very popular digitally, but I’m still impressed to see Nightwing doing so well. Huge turn around from what sales were like before he got the book.

----------


## Restingvoice

> One of the Run Offs, I'd assume.





> Maybe it's Orca?


probably Defacer for the royalty

The rest of the Run-Offs are Dixon Nightwing villains reformed

----------


## hairys

> Taylor is very popular digitally


that's what she said

----------


## Drako

#83 Variant:

----------


## Drako

Nightwing #83
story by TOM TAYLOR
art and Cover by BRUNO REDONDO
$3.99 US | 32 PAGES | FC | DC
On Sale Date 8/17/21
variant Cover by MAX DUNBAR
price $4.99 US (Card Stock)
Its a fight for the soul of the city! Now that Dick Grayson has inherited more money than he could possibly need, he has an idea on how he can help the city with itand its time for him to announce it to the world! But with Blüdhaven's so beyond saving, what idea does he have that could possible save it? Meanwhile, an unexpected figure comes into play with a plan to buy the city (and all the power that goes with it) from Blockbuster. Things are about to get messy for new public figure Dick Grayson, but maybe he can enlist some help from his friend Nightwing!



Robin #5
Story by JOSHUA WILLIAMSON
Art by GLEB MELNIKOV
Cover by JORGE CORONA
ON SALE: 8/24/21
$3.99 US | 32 PAGES | FC | DC
variant by Francis Manapul
Price $4.99 US (Card Stock)
Robin reunion! Nightwing, Red Hood, Tim Drake, and Spoiler guest-star as they track Damian down with a plan to bring the young hero back to Gotham. Back to his family. But the son of Batman plans to win the Lazarus Tournament and refuses to return. What starts as a happy reunion quickly turns into a Robin rumble!

----------


## Frontier

Dick becoming the new Bruce Wayne  :Stick Out Tongue: .

It'll be nice to see him and Damian together again  :Smile: .

----------


## dietrich

> Bruno Redondo is ridiculously talented. The art is just phenomenal. I thought this issue was much better than the last 2. Was Brutale in the tournament with Robin? I can't remember. Heartless looks cool.
> 
> I could have done with out the Tim is the best thing but I do think that's something Dick might believe, If that makes sense.


Doesn't sound like he believes it here. The way he phrased it is also how one would say it if they were being sarcastic. 

'Some people think' implies others not him.

Also who are these people? People in universe don't do the whole fandom thing of 'who's the best Robin'. That's not a thing heroes would do and civilians and villains might but they don't know their real names.

It's fan service since Dick is talking about the fandom which makes it even more stupid and obvious.

I'm just happy he said 'some people' not 'I' or stated as fact.

----------


## dietrich

> Dick becoming the new Bruce Wayne .
> 
> It'll be nice to see him and Damian together again .



Somehow don't think it'll be nice since they are fighting.

Hopefully Damian breaks tim's face for that 'Everyone's here' line from that Nightwing Joker war issue.

That was a dick move Tim.

----------


## Lady Nightwing

> Doesn't sound like he believes it here. The way he phrased it is also how one would say it if they were being sarcastic. 
> 
> 'Some people think' implies others not him.
> 
> Also who are these people? People in universe don't do the whole fandom thing of 'who's the best Robin'. That's not a thing heroes would do and civilians and villains might but they don't know their real names.
> 
> It's fan service since Dick is talking about the fandom which makes it even more stupid and obvious.
> 
> I'm just happy he said 'some people' not 'I' or stated as fact.


I think if you're invested in the Batfamily, you'll just have to accept writers fan-boying over Tim. It sucks but I don't see it changing any time soon.

The line was a bit awkward but I'm choosing to believe Dick believes it on a personal level. I mean he's pretty self-deprecating so maybe he doesn't realise he's miles better  :Stick Out Tongue: 

I hope Taylor isn't catering to fanon. I'll drop this run like a stone if they introduce constantly swearing, book and bread loving, radical feminist Jason Todd

----------


## Arsenal

I feel like the “whose the best (insert legacy here)” topic would come up amongst the heroes (more so the younger ones). Even if it’s just something they do when drunk/hanging out/in jest.

----------


## Vordan

By the way if you guys want to read Dick as Robin you should definitely check out Yang’s _Batman/Superman_. He writes a great Robin and Dick is very active and involved in the plot.

----------


## Avi

> By the way if you guys want to read Dick as Robin you should definitely check out Yangs _Batman/Superman_. He writes a great Robin and Dick is very active and involved in the plot.


I'm positively surprised Dick and Lois are staying around.

Yang brings such a fun Golden Age'esque dynamic to the page. I haven't enjoyed Dick's and Bruce's Robin & Batman dynamic this much since, hmm, Scarecrow Year One?

If the unannounced Robin and Batman were written by Yang _and_ in the same vein, it'd make my whole year.

----------


## HsssH

> If the unannounced Robin and Batman were written by Yang _and_ in the same vein, it'd make my whole year.


Interesting thought. I wrote in Batman/Superman thread about how it would be weird if they just threw these versions into limbo after Yang/Reis spent so much energy building them up. And yeah, if this leads to separate series/mini featuring these characters with Dick as Robin being main character? I'm in.

----------


## Fergus

> By the way if you guys want to read Dick as Robin you should definitely check out YangÂ’s _Batman/Superman_. He writes a great Robin and Dick is very active and involved in the plot.


This was a welcome and unexpected delight. Yang's handling of DickRobin and Bruce was superb. 

I'll have more of this type of content please.

----------


## Fergus

> Its not that Tim needs this in universe, but Tim as a character needs to be proped up because he isn't very good or interesting character.


Saw a video of some writers and artist's disscussing their convention experiences. One said he was booed for saying his favourite Robin was Jason. The panel laughed and one of the writers advised that he should have known the only correct answer to that was Tim Drake.
The writer said that in his experience the most common question he gets asked by Tim fans is who is your favourite Robin or Who is the best Robin. He added if they are asking more times out of 10 when this question is asked it's always by a Tim fan so always go with Tim. 

That's the best answer. No Boos

I'll try and find the video because I'd like to remember the names of the writers on that panel.

----------


## Godlike13

It’s a paper title to try and give Tim a sense of relevancy. He’s not the first, his didn’t die, he’s not the son of Batman. It’s literally the only thing they can try to attach to his character regardless if it’s actually true or not. But that’s Tim in a nutshell. His entire character is built around paper titles. That’s why when they first released the tease of him being in the issue I wasn’t excited. The dynamic is boring. Pretty much any character around Tim needs to shill for him cause of his irrelevancy. The character doesn’t inherently justify himself anymore, so they need other characters to do it for him.

----------


## Drako

> It’s a paper title to try and give Tim a sense of relevancy. He’s not the first, his didn’t die, he’s not the son of Batman. It’s literally the only thing they can try to attach to his character regardless if it’s actually true or not. But that’s Tim in a nutshell. His entire character is built around paper titles. That’s why when they first released the tease of him being in the issue I wasn’t excited. The dynamic is boring. Pretty much any character around Tim needs to shill for him cause of his irrelevancy. The character doesn’t inherently justify himself anymore, so they need other characters to do it for him.


Oh, come on. It was just one meta commentary in two sentences, it doesn't bother me.  
Their dynamic in the book after that was good, imo. When he called Tim to ask for help, i was worried. "Oh, here we go again, need help to do the detective work". But no, he just wanted someone more acessible to talk with the Kids.

----------


## Avi

> Oh, come on. It was just one meta commentary in two sentences, it doesn't bother me.  
> Their dynamic in the book after that was good, imo. When he called Tim to ask for help, i was worried. "Oh, here we go again, need help to do the detective work". But no, he just wanted someone more acessible to talk with the Kids.


I agree that it wasn't that bad. The "I can see why" saved the initial introduction of Tim to me and afterward their dynamic was alright. But does Dick really need someone more accessible to talk with the kids? Maybe in this specific case because he is a (random) murder suspect of one of the kids' Dad, but Dick has always been good with children. And we have seen nada of that so far.

----------


## Drako

> I agree that it wasn't that bad. The "I can see why" saved the initial introduction of Tim to me and afterward their dynamic was alright. But does Dick really need someone more accessible to talk with the kids? Maybe in this specific case because he is a (random) murder suspect of one of the kids' Dad, but Dick has always been good with children. And we have seen nada of that so far.


They're kids and teenagers living in the streets, they are stealing to survive. Of course they would have trust issues. It's at least reasonable to believe they would open up more easily to another person at their age than a grow man. 

Dick just would had to make more effort to gain their trust, while with Tim they can talk as equal.

----------


## Frontier

> Interesting thought. I wrote in Batman/Superman thread about how it would be weird if they just threw these versions into limbo after Yang/Reis spent so much energy building them up. And yeah, if this leads to separate series/mini featuring these characters with Dick as Robin being main character? I'm in.


For the fans that want to see more of Dick as Robin, that would be pretty cool  :Smile: .

----------


## Godlike13

> Oh, come on. It was just one meta commentary in two sentences, it doesn't bother me.  
> Their dynamic in the book after that was good, imo. When he called Tim to ask for help, i was worried. "Oh, here we go again, need help to do the detective work". But no, he just wanted someone more acessible to talk with the Kids.


It was predictable. The commentary had no relevance to the task at hand, but was non the less a preliminary requirement cause that’s the dynamic. Dick has to sell Tim, as that always been his role when it comes to Tim. First to help legitimize him as the new Robin, and now just to legitimize him in general.

----------


## Avi

> They're kids and teenagers living in the streets, they are stealing to survive. Of course they would have trust issues. It's at least reasonable to believe they would open up more easily to another person at their age than a grow man. 
> 
> Dick just would had to make more effort to gain their trust, while with Tim they can talk as equal.


But would it really have been so strange for Dick to walk by with Haley "by chance" and "recognize" Elliot to ask him if he enjoyed the night in the hotel, why he is at the tent city instead, and where his dad is?  

And sure, the kids should have trust issues, but these don't seem important when all we see is Tim walk up to them with Haley and then get an "one hour later".

While I don't think it was unreasonable to let Tim help, even if I do think at least half of the other Batfamily characters are more qualified to speak to homeless children than Tim Drake, Dick speaking to Elliot himself could have been used to elevate Dick (who was homeless himself just a few months prior) instead of making Nightwing into a Batfamily show.

----------


## phonogram12

> They're kids and teenagers living in the streets, they are stealing to survive. Of course they would have trust issues. It's at least reasonable to believe they would open up more easily to another person at their age than a grow man. 
> 
> Dick just would had to make more effort to gain their trust, while with Tim they can talk as equal.


I have to agree. Plus, it was just a great guest spot, too.

----------


## Drako

> But would it really have been so strange for Dick to walk by with Haley "by chance" and "recognize" Elliot to ask him if he enjoyed the night in the hotel, why he is at the tent city instead, and where his dad is?  
> 
> And sure, the kids should have trust issues, but these don't seem important when all we see is Tim walk up to them with Haley and then get an "one hour later".
> 
> While I don't think it was unreasonable to let Tim help, even if I do think at least half of the other Batfamily characters are more qualified to speak to homeless children than Tim Drake, Dick speaking to Elliot himself could have been used to elevate Dick (who was homeless himself just a few months prior) instead of making Nightwing into a Batfamily show.


He could do that, with no problem. I mean you can write whatever you want in a comic book, but i think calling Tim for that was a good excuse for him to show up.
Like i said, if he was called to do the detective work i would be pissed, but he was just there to get some information quickly. So to me was Ok.

But if you don't want Tim to appear, than there is no amount of excuse that will convince you.

----------


## Avi

> He could do that, with no problem. I mean you can write whatever you want in a comic book, but i think calling Tim for that was a good excuse for him to show up.
> Like i said, if he was called to do the detective work i would be pissed, but he was just there to get some information quickly. So to me was Ok.
> 
> But if you don't want Tim to appear, than there is no amount of excuse that will convince you.


Eh, I don't care for Tim all that much. Whether he appears or not. It's the lack of meaningful interactions Dick has had so far with non-bat characters, which makes me criticize how Taylor handled that plot point.

----------


## Frontier

> It was predictable. The commentary had no relevance to the task at hand, but was non the less a preliminary requirement cause that’s the dynamic. Dick has to sell Tim, as that always been his role when it comes to Tim. First to help legitimize him as the new Robin, and now just to legitimize him in general.


Considering how little interaction Dick and Tim have had as of late I think it's less of an attempt to sell Tim and more like re-introduce their bond and how close they are. 

Granted, other than Steph, Dick is usually used to sell any other Robin.

----------


## Godlike13

> Considering how little interaction Dick and Tim have had as of late I think it's less of an attempt to sell Tim and more like re-introduce their bond and how close they are. 
> 
> Granted, other than Steph, Dick is usually used to sell any other Robin.


The basis of their bond though is to sell Tim. So its just there whether or not it’s the main intention anymore. It’s the accepted dynamic. Dick gets little out of it. As it presents no challenge to his character or growth. Its hey, this kid is cool. Zzz....

----------


## phonogram12

> The basis of their bond though is to sell Tim. So its just there whether or not it’s the main intention anymore. It’s the accepted dynamic. Dick gets little out of it. As presents no challenge to his character or growth. It hey, this kid is cool. Zzz....


Not really seeing where you get this, but okay. Maybe early on when he was first introduced some 30 something years ago, but since then I think that's a stretch.

----------


## Godlike13

LoL, Its like every appearance their together. Its so common we knew we were going to see it here before the issue was out.

----------


## KrustyKid

> The basis of their bond though is to sell Tim. So its just there whether or not its the main intention anymore. Its the accepted dynamic. Dick gets little out of it. As it presents no challenge to his character or growth. *Its hey, this kid is cool*. Zzz....


We must have read a different issue, I definitely didn't get those vibes after reading it. Dick simply brought Tim in as a support to blend in/gain the trust of those in his age group while Dick observed and deciphered the situation more in depth from his line of view above. The narrative of their dynamic in this issue was nothing like what you described.

----------


## HsssH

> instead of making Nightwing into a Batfamily show.


I think this is the main reason why some of us are very nitpicky here.

----------


## Godlike13

> We must have read a different issue, I definitely didn't get those vibes after reading it. Dick simply brought Tim in as a support to blend in/gain the trust of those in his age group while Dick observed and deciphered the situation more in depth from his line of view above. The narrative of their dynamic in this issue was nothing like what you described.


I guess you must have missed his introduction in the issue. There’s a reason they have Dick referring to Tim as the best Robin even though it had no bearing on his actual task. It’s an inherent function of their accepted dynamic.

----------


## Badou

Taylor is on record saying his favorite Robin is Tim I think. So him using this as a chance to try and validate or prop up Tim by having Dick say how great Tim is isn't unexpected. Taylor seems to like undercutting Dick to make a Babs or a Tim look better. So far under Taylor's pen Dick doesn't really come across as some highly capable hero. He's kind of always getting shown up or being made to look a bit incompetent. I get it is being played off for laughs, but it is something that feels like a pattern now. The first issue having Dick get thrown by Babs, second issue getting his wallet stolen, and the third issue having Tim kind of poke fun at Dick getting his wallet stolen while Dick talks about how great Tim is. I feel like a lot of Nightwing writers kind of fall into this cycle of undercutting Dick or just beating the shit out of him while he can barely get a leg up on C-tier villains. It can get very exhausting. 

The Tim praise did come off as a bit weird still. It gave off the impression that Tim is in great shape when his character is kind of a disaster. I mean Tim is the Robin I grew up with. So I used to defend him a lot and really enjoyed his dynamic with Dick, which has been dead for a while now. I'd say he was the Robin that modernized the Robin identity and deserved a lot of credit for that, and even was Ultimate Spider-man before Ultimate Spider-man with a thing, but now after so long I don't think the current Tim is a very good character. I've kind of come to that realization and I think he was a far better character in the 90s. 

What felt very eye-opening in the issue was how odd it felt seeing Tim in normal street clothes. It makes you realize that Tim has zero character outside the costume anymore. There is just no depth to his character, and all we get as "development" is the writer or other characters bluntly telling us how much of a genius or amazing Tim is when it doesn't really feel like that when you look at how far his character has fallen off. A lot of the 90s aspects that I felt made Tim unique and different from other Batman characters, like him trying to balance a normal life with parents, are gone and have been absent from his character for a long, long time now. Like Dick has had way more stories now were they explore his normal life than Tim has despite Tim being originally made for them.

----------


## Frontier

> The basis of their bond though is to sell Tim. So its just there whether or not it’s the main intention anymore. It’s the accepted dynamic. Dick gets little out of it. As it presents no challenge to his character or growth. Its hey, this kid is cool. Zzz....


The basis of their bond is they are brothers and Dick mentored him when Tim was Robin and Tim was a fanboy of Dick's.



> What felt very eye-opening in the issue was how odd it felt seeing Tim in normal street clothes. It makes you realize that Tim has zero character outside the costume anymore. There is just no depth to his character, and all we get as "development" is the writer or other characters bluntly telling us how much of a genius or amazing Tim is when it doesn't really feel like that when you look at how far his character has fallen off. A lot of the 90s aspects that I felt made Tim unique and different from other Batman characters, like him trying to balance a normal life with parents, are gone and have been absent from his character for a long, long time now. Like Dick has had way more stories now were they explore his normal life than Tim has despite Tim being originally made for them.


Tim was always the normal one unless he was going undercover or something so...why would he stand out in street clothes?

Unless you mean because he's been in costume 99% of the time in most of his appearances lately but he's not the only one guilty of that.

----------


## Badou

> Tim was always the normal one unless he was going undercover or something so...why would he stand out in street clothes?
> 
> Unless you mean because he's been in costume 99% of the time in most of his appearances lately but he's not the only one guilty of that.


It is the latter. It felt odd seeing him in street clothes because it makes you realize he is never out of costume anymore, and that he doesn't really have any kind of actual character these days to allow for him to appear in street clothes more often.

----------


## 9th.

Came across this and I love it (sorry if it's been posted already)

Flying Graysons

----------


## dietrich

> Not really seeing where you get this, but okay. Maybe early on when he was first introduced some 30 something years ago, but since then I think that's a stretch.


It went on way beyond Tim's intro though. Have you not read the 90's Robin comic? Dick's appearances were pretty much to big Tim up.

----------


## dietrich

> Came across this and I love it (sorry if it's been posted already)
> 
> Flying Graysons


I found out recently [like last week] that mark Grayson's name is an homage to Dick Grayson. Neat

----------


## HsssH

> It is the latter. It felt odd seeing him in street clothes because it makes you realize he is never out of costume anymore, and that he doesn't really have any kind of actual character these days to allow for him to appear in street clothes more often.


Hard to do that when you don't have an ongoing or at least a mini. Not that I want one.

----------


## dietrich

> The basis of their bond is they are brothers and Dick mentored him when Tim was Robin and Tim was a fanboy of Dick's.


Someone else said that Dick is used to legitimise Replacement Robins. Used to prop them up and that is true. Tim and Damian the two that sort of worked have 'bonds' with Dick. Even his folks death and the emotional impact it had on poor Timmy is dragged to tie him to Dick.

Cunning strategy and it works however it's odd two Tim stans writers who got into comics at a time when this bond was strongest can't come up with a better way to reflect this bond.

Both writers give us Dick telling us how great Tim is and Tim and Dick riding trains.

That's it.


@Badou I agree. A lot of it of played off as a joke but the joke is always at Dick's expense. Taylor said on twitter that Dick is one of DC's greatest detectives etc but he's yet to show that reflected in the story.

The run so far has been lots of gorgeous art, hype, call backs, jokes and fan service. Style but not much substance. It looks good, I feel good when I read it because it's kinda familiar which is comforting but it's not actually doing anything. Dick isn't treated as the A lister that Taylor promised.

I'm a fan of the batfam but I would rather Nightwing focuses on Dick and what makes him a great hero and character.

I want Dock's ties to the greater DCU reflected in the title not just the Batfamily.

We know he's a bat now what else is he?

----------


## Frontier

> It is the latter. It felt odd seeing him in street clothes because it makes you realize he is never out of costume anymore, and that he doesn't really have any kind of actual character these days to allow for him to appear in street clothes more often.


But, again, it feels true for a lot of characters these days. Not just Tim. 



> It went on way beyond Tim's intro though. Have you not read the 90's Robin comic? Dick's appearances were pretty much to big Tim up.


I thought it was more setting them up as brothers. 



> Someone else said that Dick is used to legitimise Replacement Robins. Used to prop them up and that is true. Tim and Damian the two that sort of worked have 'bonds' with Dick. Even his folks death and the emotional impact it had on poor Timmy is dragged to tie him to Dick.
> 
> Cunning strategy and it works however it's odd two Tim stans writers who got into comics at a time when this bond was strongest can't come up with a better way to reflect this bond.
> 
> Both writers give us Dick telling us how great Tim is and Tim and Dick riding trains.
> 
> That's it.


I mean, he's the original Robin, so it's probably a given that his opinion and relationship with the current Robin would be relevant and significant. The only one he never really interacted with was Steph because of  how brief her tenure was. 

I thought Tomasi did a great job with their dynamic during his Nightwing stint and I don't think he really tried to prop Tim up that much.

----------


## Badou

> Hard to do that when you don't have an ongoing or at least a mini. Not that I want one.


He's been in some kind of ongoing book pretty consistently though. No solo book, but only recently has he been absent from any ongoing title because of the YJ book's collapse. It's been a decade and there has been nothing done with Tim's personal life outside that bad attempt to have Drake be a fake name and his parents be in the witness protection early in the New 52, mostly as a way to write his parents out of his stories, and then that scene in Rebirth where he and Steph were driving off possibly going to college which was immediately dropped in his next appearance. 

I haven't kept up with all his appearances, but those are all I can think of since the New 52. 




> But, again, it feels true for a lot of characters these days. Not just Tim.


I think it is the opposite. Most characters that appear as much as Tim since the New 52 have been appearing in street clothes or trying to show more personal life stuff more often it feels like.

----------


## Godlike13

> The basis of their bond is they are brothers and Dick mentored him when Tim was Robin and Tim was a fanboy of Dick's.


Why are they "brothers" though, and what purpose does Tim being a fan of Dick's serve. Remember Tim was coming off of Jason as Robin. Being brothers, Tim being a fan of Dick, none of this is character driven or there to serve Dick. None of that has really done anything for Dick's overall character. We saw more character growth for Dick with Damian then the entirety of Tim existence has done. Those bonds are purposely deigned for the underline purpose of getting Tim over, so that fans didn't reject him like they did Jason. Its all about Dick giving him the A-ok. That is the basis in which those bonds were built.

----------


## WonderNight

Well it's good seeing dick being his own man in that Batfamily book of his!

----------


## Frontier

> Why are they "brothers" though, and what purpose does Tim being a fan of Dick's serve. Remember Tim was coming off of Jason as Robin. Being brothers, Tim being a fan of Dick, none of this is character driven or there to serve Dick. None of that has really done anything for Dick's overall character. We saw more character growth for Dick with Damian then the entirety of Tim existence has done. Those bonds are purposely deigned for the underline purpose of getting Tim over, so that fans didn't reject him like they did Jason. Its all about Dick giving him the A-ok. That is the basis in which those bonds were built.


I think it serves Dick in the sense of showing a different facets of his character and how he inspires people and what he's like with a little brother and mentoring the next Robin. 

The dynamic with Damian is different but equally valid. 



> I think it is the opposite. Most characters that appear as much as Tim since the New 52 have been appearing in street clothes or trying to show more personal life stuff more often it feels like.


Eh...do they? I guess it depends which characters we're talking about.

Like probably the characters with solo's have more of a chance of it, but at least in the New 52 Titans I think they were in street clothes with all the times they were trying to go under the radar or hide from police.

----------


## Pohzee

This isn't a Tim bashing thread, but if his whole point is that he's the more grounded and normal Robin, then he's completely pointless in an era where heroes aren't allowed to have normal lives. He's really got nothing else going for him.

----------


## Frontier

> This isn't a Tim bashing thread, but if his whole point is that he's the more grounded and normal Robin, then he's completely pointless in an era where heroes aren't allowed to have normal lives. He's really got nothing else going for him.


Can't that also play into his personality and how he reacts to stuff too?

----------


## Pohzee

> Can't that also play into his personality and how he reacts to stuff too?


It could be but I really feel like Dick kinda covers that base well enough when he's in Dixon mode. Not exactly the same, but not different enough to merit an addition

----------


## Ascended

> Considering how little interaction Dick and Tim have had as of late I think it's less of an attempt to sell Tim and more like re-introduce their bond and how close they are.


Haven't read the issue yet, but this rings true to me in a "general" kind of way. Tim and Dick used to be really close back in the day. And yeah, that was to help sell the idea of this then-new Robin by having Dick approve of the kid, but their bond was absolutely a major relationship for both characters during the Dixon days and remained so long after Tim became a central, beloved member of the Batfam. We've been bitching about DC ignoring most of Dick's relationships and history, well, that includes Tim. 

And normally, yeah Dick's seal of approval is used to prop up Tim (among others) but there's not really any point to DC propping up Tim right now. Tim doesn't have a solo, doesn't have a regular team title, if this is an attempt to sell him then where's the product they're selling? Maybe Taylor screwed up the script, I won't know until I read it, but Tim is part of Dick's family and has every right to appear here.




> This isn't a Tim bashing thread, but if his whole point is that he's the more grounded and normal Robin, then he's completely pointless in an era where heroes aren't allowed to have normal lives. He's really got nothing else going for him.


Tim absolutely has no direction or purpose. And DC's attempts to keep Tim relevant are just doing more damage. I don't know why they can't just have Tim retire for a while. The kid never wanted to be Robin forever, he's got no regular title to star in, what benefit is there to keeping him in the cape? Have him retire and appear as a supporting character in some Bat book; Tim the "civilian private detective" can do all the things Tim the "costumed hero sharing the name Robin" can do, and have more freedom in the process. At least until someone comes up with a plan for him.

----------


## Frontier

> It could be but I really feel like Dick kinda covers that base well enough when he's in Dixon mode. Not exactly the same, but not different enough to merit an addition


I think Tim's youth and enthusiam makes the difference, and that he's a little more awkward than Dick, but I guess that depends on your perspective. 



> Tim absolutely has no direction or purpose. And DC's attempts to keep Tim relevant are just doing more damage. I don't know why they can't just have Tim retire for a while. The kid never wanted to be Robin forever, he's got no regular title to star in, what benefit is there to keeping him in the cape? Have him retire and appear as a supporting character in some Bat book; Tim the "civilian private detective" can do all the things Tim the "costumed hero sharing the name Robin" can do, and have more freedom in the process. At least until someone comes up with a plan for him.


Fans want to read more of their favorite character. Tim's come a long way from the point where he didn't expect this life to consume him the way he did and I think Tim as a civilian private detective without any costume wouldn't really fit anywhere. He'd basically just be Jason Bard.

----------


## Rac7d*

> Haven't read the issue yet, but this rings true to me in a "general" kind of way. Tim and Dick used to be really close back in the day. And yeah, that was to help sell the idea of this then-new Robin by having Dick approve of the kid, but their bond was absolutely a major relationship for both characters during the Dixon days and remained so long after Tim became a central, beloved member of the Batfam. We've been bitching about DC ignoring most of Dick's relationships and history, well, that includes Tim. 
> 
> And normally, yeah Dick's seal of approval is used to prop up Tim (among others) but there's not really any point to DC propping up Tim right now. Tim doesn't have a solo, doesn't have a regular team title, if this is an attempt to sell him then where's the product they're selling? Maybe Taylor screwed up the script, I won't know until I read it, but Tim is part of Dick's family and has every right to appear here.
> 
> 
> 
> Tim absolutely has no direction or purpose. And DC's attempts to keep Tim relevant are just doing more damage. I don't know why they can't just have Tim retire for a while. The kid never wanted to be Robin forever, he's got no regular title to star in, what benefit is there to keeping him in the cape? Have him retire and appear as a supporting character in some Bat book; Tim the "civilian private detective" can do all the things Tim the "costumed hero sharing the name Robin" can do, and have more freedom in the process. At least until someone comes up with a plan for him.


 Tim doesn’t have a normal life. We have know of no life outside of heroics for a while. It would have been a good idea to let him be a civilian for a period and then have him return rebranded. We’re hitting the worst of it now that the status quo has has him in a bad spot. The original titans are now in their early thirties and the most recent in their mid to late teen. One more year and he won’t fit in the mythos.

----------


## Vordan

> Someone else said that Dick is used to legitimise Replacement Robins. Used to prop them up and that is true. Tim and Damian the two that sort of worked have 'bonds' with Dick. Even his folks death and the emotional impact it had on poor Timmy is dragged to tie him to Dick.
> 
> Cunning strategy and it works however it's odd two Tim stans writers who got into comics at a time when this bond was strongest can't come up with a better way to reflect this bond.
> 
> Both writers give us Dick telling us how great Tim is and Tim and Dick riding trains.
> 
> That's it.
> 
> 
> ...


Welcome to Tom Taylor. Its why I dont generally enjoy him (ok there are other reason too which Im sure can be guessed based on my profile pic). Im still enjoying this run because Ric was so terrible that Im willing to turn my brain off and just enjoy the pretty pictures, but dont expect this to change. Taylor isnt going to change his style now.

----------


## Rac7d*

> Welcome to Tom Taylor. It’s why I don’t generally enjoy him (ok there are other reason too which I’m sure can be guessed based on my profile pic). I’m still enjoying this run because Ric was so terrible that I’m willing to turn my brain off and just enjoy the pretty pictures, but don’t expect this to change. Taylor isn’t going to change his style now.


Well let the arc finish first. Do you want superficial Alist status which is achieved by joining the justice league. Ex Cyborg, Jessica Cruz Naomi.    Are you looking for Alist status within the fiction or real life?  Do you want him to be a household name?

That can’t be achieved in a few issues. A good run is is a few years worth of issues. A list status, true status is built over time. To be honest Nightwing already on the cusp of it.

----------


## WonderNight

> Tim doesn’t have a normal life. We have know of no life outside of heroics for a while. It would have been a good idea to let him be a civilian for a period and then have him return rebranded. We’re hitting the worst of it now that the status quo has has him in a bad spot. The original titans are now in their early thirties and the most recent in their mid to late teen. One more year and he won’t fit in the mythos.


Wait dicks in his 30s now! I thought he was in his 20s.

----------


## WonderNight

Nightwing will never be A list as long as his core consept and story's remains discount batman/ bat character no.12. 

You what A list Nightwing, give him a core consept that can get people invested in him outside of Batman batfamily and Gotham, like Grayson did!

Agent 37= globetrotting superspy.

Nightwing=I was Robin.

----------


## Rac7d*

> Wait dicks in his 30s now! I thought he was in his 20s.


So with Roy’s daughter now presently 11-14. That would put him and his friends their. She didn’t come from the future so natural progression is the only answer for her age.



> Nightwing will never be A list as long as his core consept and story's remains discount batman/ bat character no.12. 
> 
> You what A list Nightwing, give him a core consept that can get people invested in him outside of Batman batfamily and Gotham, like Grayson did!
> 
> Agent 37= globetrotting superspy.
> 
> Nightwing=I was Robin.


Cool take I can do grossly simplify it too

Nightwing = Living legacy, Universal Constant 

Agent 37 = James Bond wannabe 

Grayson was fun and freshs but it cut him off from the world of DC. For someone like him who is beloved by the world working is a detriment. It was the only flaw of the series but a big one. DC intelligence world is underdeveloped and limited and can expand within only one book. I feel like if Dick became a secret agent again he would end up working for Waller on then suicide Squad and no thank you on that.

Actually the true breakout out star of the Titans is probably Deathstroke. I recall him having an awful book a couple years back traveling the world and fighting a different Alist superhero every 2issues. 

If I don’t preorder a new issue of Nightwing it will not be there the day after release. He is in demand as Nightwing. The only thing slowing him from reaching household status is a decent live action adaptation of him.

----------


## Vordan

> Well let the arc finish first. Do you want superficial Alist status which is achieved by joining the justice league. Ex Cyborg, Jessica Cruz Naomi.    Are you looking for Alist status within the fiction or real life?  Do you want him to be a household name?


Honestly I couldn’t care less about any of that. A freaking comic isn’t going to make Dick A-List, the Titans show, Arkham games, and the Gotham Knights game are doing that. Nightwing’s comic is read by a few thousand people while millions watch the show and play the games. So when it comes to the comics all I care about is “am I enjoying this?” and with Taylor the answer is usually “no”. His style doesn’t appeal to me usually. But Ric was so bad that for once I’m willing to just follow along for now until he does something that annoys me and causes me to drop the book. 



> That can’t be achieved in a few issues. A good run is is a few years worth of issues. A list status, true status is built over time. To be honest Nightwing already on the cusp of it.


Dick is A-List in the eyes of the general audience even if he’s not treated as such by DC. Captain Marvel (Carol) is A-List now because of her movie and she has far fewer good comics than he does imo. He and Jason are by far the most popular non-Bruce members of the Batfamily.

Aside from that, I expect Taylor to sell well given he’s in his element writing a Batfamily member.

----------


## WonderNight

> So with Roy’s daughter now presently 11-14. That would put him and his friends their. She didn’t come from the future so natural progression is the only answer for her age.
> 
> 
> Cool take I can do grossly simplify it too
> 
> Nightwing = Living legacy, Universal Constant 
> 
> Agent 37 = James Bond wannabe 
> 
> ...


Living legacy? Universal constant? Lmao! A bunch of nothing! Just empty words that don't mean anything in practice.

At least james bond isn't in the dcu, but whatever Nightwing will forever be just another bat underling in a ever growing sea of bat underling so I don't even care anymore.

I just hope when DC starts pushing Jace over him and dick becomes the new tim people won't start bitching because this what they asked for.

----------


## WonderNight

Also I'd put dick in his late 20s like 28. I just don't believe dc would want Batman, flash, green arrow and aquaman all pushing 50.

----------


## Rac7d*

> Also I'd put dick in his late 20s like 28. I just don't believe dc would want Batman, flash, green arrow and aquaman all pushing 50.


Oliver has a 16 year old son he’s definitely in his 40s
Batman had Lazarus dip at some point so I guess his body is still youngish but DC will probably just ignore his age
Babs has gone through high school college grad school and law school. Early thirties sounds right

----------


## Avi

My problem with the Bats isn't that they appear, it's that they don't go away again. Sure, featuring them for an arc is alright. But if I bought four random Nightwing Issues, I would find Barbara in at least one of them. And not as part of a cameo.

Which means I actually enjoy featuring different members. I don't hate seeing Tim for a chance, even if I think and wish it would have been handled differently. As Godlike13 mentioned, what happened was so terribly predictable. It was basically a "here we go again" moment.

And it does feel disingenuous to me when Taylor and Redondo criticize the use of so many Batman villains for Dick but overexpose Bat support.




> The run so far has been lots of gorgeous art, hype, call backs, jokes and fan service. *Style but not much substance.* It looks good, I feel good when I read it because it's kinda familiar which is comforting but it's not actually doing anything. Dick isn't treated as the A lister that Taylor promised.
> 
> I'm a fan of the batfam but I would rather Nightwing focuses on Dick and what makes him a great hero and character.
> [...]


This. This perfectly sums up my thoughts so far.




> Well let the arc finish first. Do you want superficial Alist status which is achieved by joining the justice league. Ex Cyborg, Jessica Cruz Naomi.    Are you looking for Alist status within the fiction or real life?  Do you want him to be a household name?
> 
> That cant be achieved in a few issues. A good run is is a few years worth of issues. A list status, true status is built over time. To be honest Nightwing already on the cusp of it.


Ah yes, who hasn't heard of the A-List run that begins with ridiculing the main character?  :Stick Out Tongue: 




> [...]
> Cool take I can do grossly simplify it too
> 
> Nightwing = Living legacy, Universal Constant 
> 
> Agent 37 = James Bond wannabe 
> 
> Grayson was fun and freshs but it cut him off from the world of DC. For someone like him who is beloved by the world working is a detriment. It was the only flaw of the series but a big one. DC intelligence world is underdeveloped and limited and can expand within only one book. I feel like if Dick became a secret agent again he would end up working for Waller on then suicide Squad and no thank you on that.
> 
> [...]


"James Bond" brought in new and old characters. Established a *gasp* supporting cast! I think taken to the next step, it could have easily smoothed out the flaw you mentioned. I'd even go as far as to say it kind of did. 

Grayson is the run that had Dick's and Supes' first team-up since the pre-N52 era. Dick appeared in Starfire. Midnighter. Superman/Batman... We even got that Annual in which Dick interacts with Harley, Constantine, and so on. That's more DCU interaction than Dick got before. 

There were ways to let Grayson flow into Agent Nightwing, and I think we would have seen them if Grayson had not been cut short.




> Also I'd put dick in his late 20s like 28. I just don't believe dc would want Batman, flash, green arrow and aquaman all pushing 50.


I agree with you. Last stated age was 27, so there is that. I think DC sees Dick approaching 30 but he isn't there yet. Imo, Lian's age doesn't determine Dick's. Dick might easily be a bit younger than Roy same as in YJ.




> Came across this and I love it (sorry if it's been posted already)
> 
> Flying Graysons


Nice!  :Big Grin:

----------


## WonderNight

Exactly Grayson gave dick more world building and growth  in the last two years than nightwing has in the last two decades! Not that dick shouldn't be nightwing, just that he should have kept what work about Grayson and bring them into nightwing. Thing's like the globetrotting and espionage, the DCU sandbox is full of awesome locations, settings and characters. Let Nightwing go play in them.
All of the other dozens of bats in Gotham got the street level hero on lock.

Also dick as agent 37 had more interactions with DCU characters than nightwing has had in the last decade in his solo's. Nightwing's head is why to far up the bat's butt. Hell they should put batman's logo back on his book! It fits the current run.

Last stated age was 27! Sounds right to me dick needs a level of youthfulness to him but also maturity and experience.

----------


## Godlike13

> Haven't read the issue yet, but this rings true to me in a "general" kind of way. Tim and Dick used to be really close back in the day. And yeah, that was to help sell the idea of this then-new Robin by having Dick approve of the kid, but their bond was absolutely a major relationship for both characters during the Dixon days and remained so long after Tim became a central, beloved member of the Batfam. We've been bitching about DC ignoring most of Dick's relationships and history, well, that includes Tim. 
> 
> And normally, yeah Dick's seal of approval is used to prop up Tim (among others) but there's not really any point to DC propping up Tim right now. Tim doesn't have a solo, doesn't have a regular team title, if this is an attempt to sell him then where's the product they're selling? Maybe Taylor screwed up the script, I won't know until I read it, but Tim is part of Dick's family and has every right to appear here.


Like I said before, at this point it’s been done so much. That its just the accepted dynamic. Even when they have nothing to sell with Tim, even when it serves no purpose to the task required, it’s just the established characterization of their relationship.

----------


## Drako

Oh well, here we go again. 

Anyway, Dick is in this preview:
https://aiptcomics.com/2021/05/28/dc...-season-two-1/




> Ah yes, who hasn't heard of the A-List run that begins with ridiculing the main character?


Aquaman most famous run of recent years started wth jokes about him. It's not that serious in Nightwing tho.

----------


## Godlike13

Im always up for some Dick and Deadman.

----------


## Frontier

> Oh well, here we go again. 
> 
> Anyway, Dick is in this preview:
> https://aiptcomics.com/2021/05/28/dc...-season-two-1/.


It's nice to see Dick and Babs getting along.

----------


## Grayson - The Dark Heir

It's nice to see I'm not the only one feeling like this run has no substance so far lol. I'm trying to be patient, because the pay-off to all this might actually be worth it, but as of now, I just don't know why the Nightwing book is even being published right now. The first issue being slow and not really doing much of anything could easily be excused because it was the transition issue, but after two more issues I'm just a little disappointed. It's sort of the opposite problem of Teen Titans Academy, which is doing too much, too quickly, but that's something I can forgive just because the focus there is on advancement and an actual mystery, over... just the set-up to Dick being really rich and a new villain that has absolutely nothing interesting about them going on. Flatline in the Robin book was leagues more interesting as a character in her debut in Robin #1.

Batman/Superman is definitely the best book for a Dick Grayson fan right now lol.

----------


## Digifiend

> So with Roy’s daughter now presently 11-14. That would put him and his friends their. She didn’t come from the future so natural progression is the only answer for her age.


Roy was just revealed to have spent some time stuck in the golden age, so that ought to have aged him up a bit in a way that doesn't affect Dick. Maybe he dated Cheshire a bit earlier, but still at the same age, because of it, resulting in Lian being born a few years earlier (say, during the 1970s Teen Titans instead of the New Teen Titans)?




> I agree with you. Last stated age was 27, so there is that. I think DC sees Dick approaching 30 but he isn't there yet. Imo, Lian's age doesn't determine Dick's. Dick might easily be a bit younger than Roy same as in YJ.


Roy wasn't older then Dick originally, they're usually the same age. But maybe he is older now, due to what we just saw in the Stargirl special?

----------


## Godlike13

> It's nice to see I'm not the only one feeling like this run has no substance so far lol. I'm trying to be patient, because the pay-off to all this might actually be worth it, but as of now, I just don't know why the Nightwing book is even being published right now. The first issue being slow and not really doing much of anything could easily be excused because it was the transition issue, but after two more issues I'm just a little disappointed. It's sort of the opposite problem of Teen Titans Academy, which is doing too much, too quickly, but that's something I can forgive just because the focus there is on advancement and an actual mystery, over... just the set-up to Dick being really rich and a new villain that has absolutely nothing interesting about them going on. Flatline in the Robin book was leagues more interesting as a character in her debut in Robin #1.
> 
> Batman/Superman is definitely the best book for a Dick Grayson fan right now lol.


Nightwing is the point of Nightwing. It’s an introductory character piece. A reintroduction into the character and his world. That’s why you see the humbling, as they want him to be relatable, and why were getting this melding pot of things from different eras being reintroduced.

----------


## HsssH

> Batman/Superman is definitely the best book for a Dick Grayson fan right now lol.


Sadly yes. If I look at 2021 so far then that planet fall issue and Batman/Superman have been most enjoyable Dick content for me.

----------


## Rakiduam

> Sadly yes. If I look at 2021 so far then that planet fall issue and Batman/Superman have been most enjoyable Dick content for me.


It was good but for me most enjoyable has been Let Them Live! It was such a fun reading

----------


## Ascended

> Batman/Superman is definitely the best book for a Dick Grayson fan right now lol.


No argument from me, Yang is firing on all cylinders with that title. I thought after he did Smashes the Klan that a regular monthly, main continuity title couldn't possibly match up, and Smash *is* the better read, but B/S is one of the best things DC is doing right now, easily the best book Superman is appearing in currently, and I don't think the Batman-Superman title (any volume) has ever been this good. I never would have thought of Yang as a potential Nightwing writer, but he's handled Dick so well in these pages I'd happily take him on Nightwing someday.

Got caught up with Nightwing finally, after the distributors got last week's DC books to the LCS. And so far I don't fully agree with a lot of the complaints the run has had. Mostly it seems to me that we wingnuts have become hyper sensitive about how Dick is treated by DC, worried that the dark days of his abuse aren't over yet, and any minor infraction is viewed as a sign that DC still doesn't see the value in the character. 

And the stuff that's annoyed all of you pisses me off too. But when I sit back and remove my own biases and "haunted by the ghost of Didio" concerns, I don't think the book is actually doing anything "wrong." Pacing isn't any slower than most comics these days, it's just not cluttered with bloated action or Bendis-esque dialogue. The Bats have every right to guest star, they're Dick's family. Dick getting punked a little bit keeps him from being a uber-competent and boring Gary Stu (and would likely be funny if he hadn't been so abused for so long). Even Dick being in Bludhaven doing typical Dixon era things isn't any different from any other hero who recycles the same villains and plot points over and over again. It's not what many of us want, we want something new and amazing that cements Dick as a major player, but it's hard to complain about Blockbuster returning when we happily accept the return of over-used rogues like Scarecrow, Joker, Zod, and Lex Luthor.

Maybe I'm being so forgiving because, thus far, Taylor's run has hewn close to how Dropkick and I structured the early issues of our fanfic work; we too started off with something that felt like classic Nightwing before building into new territory. We too had Bats cameo in the first few issues. We too made use of Blockbuster and Bludhaven. And by issue seven we had built a very different type of Nightwing out of that classic Dixon era status quo. Maybe I'm gonna be wrong but I still think Taylor is building towards a similar kind of shift, spending these early issues to remind us of who Dick is and where he came from (and why we love him) before launching him into something (at least somewhat) different.

----------


## 9th.

> It's nice to see I'm not the only one feeling like this run has no substance so far lol. I'm trying to be patient, because the pay-off to all this might actually be worth it, but as of now, I just don't know why the Nightwing book is even being published right now. The first issue being slow and not really doing much of anything could easily be excused because it was the transition issue, but after two more issues I'm just a little disappointed. It's sort of the opposite problem of Teen Titans Academy, which is doing too much, too quickly, but that's something I can forgive just because the focus there is on advancement and an actual mystery, over... just the set-up to Dick being really rich and a new villain that has absolutely nothing interesting about them going on. Flatline in the Robin book was leagues more interesting as a character in her debut in Robin #1.
> 
> *Batman/Superman is definitely the best book for a Dick Grayson fan right now lol.*


Wait what? Whats going on there, what issues?

----------


## HsssH

> Wait what? Whats going on there, what issues?


It started with #16 and it is going to conclude in August I think. Without spoiling much basically the idea is that there are two separate Golden Age inspired worlds, one with Batman and Robin (Dick) and another with Superman. And they end up crashing into each other. So yeah, technically its not in "main continuity", but Yang is writing really fun Dick there. He obviously is not the main character, but he does get a decent amount of panels in each issue and I'd go as far as saying that Batman/Superman/Dick/Lois get roughly equal amount of focus.

Overall it is really good and has fantastic art by Reis and I'd recommend it to everyone unless you are allergic to comics that deal with multiverse or alternatives realities.

----------


## 9th.

> It started with #16 and it is going to conclude in August I think. Without spoiling much basically the idea is that there are two separate Golden Age inspired worlds, one with Batman and Robin (Dick) and another with Superman. And they end up crashing into each other. So yeah, technically its not in "main continuity", but Yang is writing really fun Dick there. He obviously is not the main character, but he does get a decent amount of panels in each issue and I'd go as far as saying that Batman/Superman/Dick/Lois get roughly equal amount of focus.
> 
> Overall it is really good and has fantastic art by Reis and I'd recommend it to everyone unless you are allergic to comics that deal with multiverse or alternatives realities.


I tend to stay away from multiverse madness but that sounds kinda fun. Thanks for the info, I hate tracking stuff like that down.

----------


## Grayson - The Dark Heir

Oh boy, looking at this as I'm typing, and this is going to be very long. Apologies in advance...




> Nightwing is the point of Nightwing. It’s an introductory character piece. A reintroduction into the character and his world. That’s why you see the humbling, as they want him to be relatable, and why were getting this melding pot of things from different eras being reintroduced.





> And the stuff that's annoyed all of you pisses me off too. But when I sit back and remove my own biases and "haunted by the ghost of Didio" concerns, I don't think the book is actually doing anything "wrong." Pacing isn't any slower than most comics these days, it's just not cluttered with bloated action or Bendis-esque dialogue. The Bats have every right to guest star, they're Dick's family. Dick getting punked a little bit keeps him from being a uber-competent and boring Gary Stu (and would likely be funny if he hadn't been so abused for so long). Even Dick being in Bludhaven doing typical Dixon era things isn't any different from any other hero who recycles the same villains and plot points over and over again. It's not what many of us want, we want something new and amazing that cements Dick as a major player, but it's hard to complain about Blockbuster returning when we happily accept the return of over-used rogues like Scarecrow, Joker, Zod, and Lex Luthor.


I know you're not necessarily responding to my criticism here Ascended, but bear with me here lol.

For me, Dick being "humbled" isn't really an issue, especially not after the past two issues. It definitely made Babs look bad initially, but the next issue handled her relationship with Dick well enough that I'm past all that.

What Ascended said here is basically what I want:



> Maybe I'm gonna be wrong but I still think Taylor is building towards a similar kind of shift, spending these early issues to remind us of who Dick is and where he came from (and why we love him) before launching him into something (at least somewhat) different.


I'm just waiting to see the point to everything lol. I don't want more action or more dialogue, I want more _scenes._ 3 issues aren't really cheap, and not much has happened. It's been maybe 24 in-universe hours so I can't expect much, except I never asked for them to take 3 months to cover 24 hours. That was Taylor's choice. it sounds like it's going to take a few more issues before we even "start" the run with #83, so I hope you can understand my disappointment.

My concerns are really just about substance. For example, the idea that Taylor wants to reconnect us to what Nightwing is and was doesn't really work when all we've seen so far is just Dick's old apartment, with Babs and Haley as the only supporting characters. That shows nothing about Bludhaven I'm supposed to care about, this series could very easily take place in Gotham and lose almost nothing of value (not that I'd want that lol).

Blockbuster is a good example of another issue I have, but it extends way further than just him. I like Blockbuster, or at least certain takes like Seeley's were cool. I'd be happy to see more done with the character. Except all we've gotten so far is a brutish mob boss, with none of his Rebirth characterization, so I have no idea why I care about this guy. It really, really doesn't help that he reads like DC's version of Wilson Fisk. Maybe he always was that and I never picked up on it until recently , but it hurts the Nightwing book as a whole quite a bit when he feels like a Daredevil character expy.

Continuing off of that, we're told Dick becoming rich is going to be a big deal because Dick is going to do more with it than Bruce would or did, which makes sense. You know what book features a character becoming rich, using that money to buy up part of the city, help citizens monetarily (resettle the homeless, decrease rent, etc.), all while moonlighting as a hero? The Daredevil book. Compared to that book, the Nightwing book has been completely performative in how Dick has used his inheritance so far. Setting up a homeless family in the richest hotel in the city just because, without a plan for literally anyone else in need would be something someone in Daredevil would probably criticize Dick for. Hell, it might even be something Dick would criticize Dick for. Hopefully Nightwing #83 can deal with some of these problems, but I'm worried for a reason.

It gets worse for me, because Daredevil is exploring various social issues in a way relevant to the Marvel universe and specifically Marvel's NYU, not just "the city" in a generic way. How superheroes actually interact with the world, and what doing "good" actually means. I'm not saying Nightwing has to be the same book (really, I'm arguing it should be more different if anything), but what exactly is Dick going to be doing? Unless Dick is going to be taking on mayors and senators and other billionaires and corporations, what is the point to having all this money? Hopefully it's just too early to answer that question, but again, in comparison to Daredevil, nothing about the Nightwing book so far is really doing much to establish what difference Dick's status quo means aside from incredibly performative "charity".

If it helps at all, I'll stop using Daredevil as a comparison starting now lol. Icon and Rocket is an upcoming book about the sweeping changes that occur around the world after Rocket convinces Icon, another rich man, to help her shut down the production and movement of drugs on a worldwide scale. The book isn't about stopping the drugs, that's just their motivation, but instead it's about how that shatters the underground workings of the world as a whole. After how loud Dick was about his charity, I'm not convinced Taylor is going to write Dick dealing with anything this big in his run.

Unless Dick is pushing for some massive changes, the Nightwing book is the lesser DC superhero book about dealing with social issues using influence. So add the Daredevil comparisons on top of that and I'm sure my whole post here should start making sense if it didn't already. And this is an entire post without mentioning Batman, who is currently dealing with corruption, politicians, the rich, and a murder mystery in Detective Comics, all of which is written in a way to link every character and plot point involved deeply to Gotham. Even if the Daredevil comparison is unfair, 'Tec has had just as many issues as Nightwing to get to where it is now. 3 issues, and only one previous Bludhaven landmark (being Dick's apartment building) has shown up, so it doesn't even feel like I've been looking at Bludhaven this whole time. The only other notable character in the book is also from Gotham. Nothing in the book feels connected to Bludhaven meaningfully.

Tim showing up in the last issue isn't a problem for me, it's just a problem that it means nothing to the book. Like I get it, Dick has a brother. But so what? Tim has some fun dialogue and then he advances the plot. Is there a deeper reason for him being in the issue or the book itself? In the first issue of the Nightwing Must Die arc, it's immediately apparent why Damian shows up. Not that Tim needs his own arc, just that I don't really see a reason for most of this issue not happening off-panel so something interesting would've been the focus instead. 

I alluded to this already, but Heartless is also annoying just because it feels like we're supposed to care about this random mystery character, but there are barely any characters in the book notable enough to be Heartless, and the only reason to care about the character's identity is because they're wearing a mask so as a reader you know there will be a reveal of some kind. Maybe in the next few issues the murder mystery will actually be developed and we get enough clues to start figuring things out, but it's not there right now. Now look at the Judge in the Untouchable arc, where we just get a threatening villain introduced. The only "mysteries" are the Judge's plans and his origins, they don't waste panel time with an empty character or an irrelevant murder mystery. Same thing with someone like Raptor: interesting character first, and the intrigue comes in as a consequence. 

All I can do is hope the book delivers on just about anything moving forward, because so far it's delivering on nothing but fantastic art and decent dialogue. All things considered, that's a major step up from where the book was before. This isn't a post to say the book isn't as good as it needs to be, this is a post to say the book isn't being as good as it thinks it already is.

----------


## HsssH

Great post.

----------


## Avi

> No argument from me, Yang is firing on all cylinders with that title. I thought after he did Smashes the Klan that a regular monthly, main continuity title couldn't possibly match up, and Smash *is* the better read, but B/S is one of the best things DC is doing right now, easily the best book Superman is appearing in currently, and I don't think the Batman-Superman title (any volume) has ever been this good. I never would have thought of Yang as a potential Nightwing writer, but he's handled Dick so well in these pages I'd happily take him on Nightwing someday.


That's a thought. Not sure how he would handle Nightwing - Robin Dick is another beast entirely, imo - but I wouldn't mind taking the chance. He seems to be a good and engaged writer overall.




> […] Mostly it seems to me that we wingnuts have become hyper sensitive about how Dick is treated by DC, worried that the dark days of his abuse aren't over yet, and any minor infraction is viewed as a sign that DC still doesn't see the value in the character.


You're not wrong.  




> […] Dick getting punked a little bit keeps him from being a uber-competent and boring Gary Stu (and would likely be funny if he hadn't been so abused for so long).


See, that's the issue for me. Why punk a character, in such strange ways, who has been abused for more than two years? It just makes Ric and Jurgen Dick look uncomfortably more competent (skill-wise) in retrospect. 

Like, I don't expect Dick to give the same beat down to Heartless he gave to KGBeast, but I hope there is some meat to that fight in the next Issue. If they fight.

As for the Gary Stu part… I know what you mean, but I don't think airhead Dick is the solution. Selina in Catwoman is competent through and through, but she still makes mistakes that cost her on the job. In Wonder Woman Diana has lost her memory and while the narrative punks on her a little too, none of the jokes are a whole narrative device the same way the stolen wallet is for Dick. Neither has she been shown as incompetent so someone else looks superior.




> […] Even Dick being in Bludhaven doing typical Dixon era things isn't any different from any other hero who recycles the same villains and plot points over and over again. It's not what many of us want, we want something new and amazing that cements Dick as a major player, but it's hard to complain about Blockbuster returning when we happily accept the return of over-used rogues like Scarecrow, Joker, Zod, and Lex Luthor.


Personally, I have made peace with Blüdhaven at least for this arc and maybe the next. It's here to stay and Blockbuster is actually one of two things that so far interest me about the run (the other one being Melinda Zucco).

But I do have the same concerns @Grayson - The Dark Heir has. The only difference is that I thought about Spider-Man, not Daredevil because Taylor said if people enjoyed his Friendly Neighbourhood Spider-Man, they will enjoy his Nightwing too. 

That tbh already made me wary. The type of book FNSM seems to be (only checked out the first Issues), is in my opinion not poignant enough for a character's main ongoing. 

I also feel that for a Blüdhaven centric run/ reintroduction of Blüdhaven, the story doesn't center Blüdhaven characters enough so far. Which is one of the reasons why it feels so shallow to me. Seeley's run (re-)introduced the Run-Offs right away. Humphries' introduced Guppy and Dick's old friend. They made me care for Blüdhaven.




> […] 3 issues, and only one previous Bludhaven landmark (being Dick's apartment building) has shown up, so it doesn't even feel like I've been looking at Bludhaven this whole time. The only other notable character in the book is also from Gotham. Nothing in the book feels connected to Bludhaven meaningfully.


The landmarks are a good point as well. I didn't think that much about them because by now it seems clear that Seeley's and Humphries' Vegas Blüd is gone, but if there was ever a time to bring back a shitton of things from previous runs to built Blüd up properly, it's now. Instead, we get an empty apartment Dick pulled out of his famous behind and a tent city Dick doesn't enter.




> […] Setting up a homeless family in the richest hotel in the city just because, without a plan for literally anyone else in need would be something someone in Daredevil would probably criticize Dick for. Hell, it might even be something Dick would criticize Dick for. Hopefully Nightwing #83 can deal with some of these problems, but I'm worried for a reason.


This. It doesn't garner a lot of goodwill for the direction, and I will remain severely disappointed by it - especially because NW #77 already did the same thing on a larger scale. We even got to know the backstory of the characters in that one-off Issue. 

Thank you for bringing up the Daredevil and Icon & Rocket comparisons. Puts it more into perspective.




> […] I alluded to this already, but Heartless is also annoying just because it feels like we're supposed to care about this random mystery character, but there are barely any characters in the book notable enough to be Heartless, and the only reason to care about the character's identity is because they're wearing a mask so as a reader you know there will be a reveal of some kind.


Oh no, I completely forgot that is very likely why they wear a mask. I liked my ignorance, damn it.

I feel the same way. Raptor and the Judge were set up a lot better. 

We don't know a thing about Heartless. The device he uses to take out hearts might be interesting, but my first reaction wasn't excitement. 

Another problem is that we have no connection to the victim. Yes, it's sad that Elliot's dad is dead, but we know nothing about father & son. We can't even speculate about why Heartless killed the dad. Except for an 'I guess he kills dads' thanks to the latest Issue. 

It's also strange to realize that Taylor, Redondo, and their editor used #WhoIsHeartless to hype their new villain up on Twitter for about two months and then just stopped before Issue two even came out.



To wrap this all up: I hope you, @Ascended, are right that after Issue seven maybe eight or nine there will be more to the story and the direction, then I might pay the +4 bucks again.

----------


## WonderNight

Great post guys. I just hope that with characters like jace and tim running around that they can take over the batman lite role and the nightwing book can become more of a dcu titans style book. Save nightwing in the bat book for bat events and bat team ups.

----------


## Badou

> And the stuff that's annoyed all of you pisses me off too. But when I sit back and remove my own biases and "haunted by the ghost of Didio" concerns, I don't think the book is actually doing anything "wrong." Pacing isn't any slower than most comics these days, it's just not cluttered with bloated action or Bendis-esque dialogue. The Bats have every right to guest star, they're Dick's family. Dick getting punked a little bit keeps him from being a uber-competent and boring Gary Stu (and would likely be funny if he hadn't been so abused for so long). Even Dick being in Bludhaven doing typical Dixon era things isn't any different from any other hero who recycles the same villains and plot points over and over again. It's not what many of us want, we want something new and amazing that cements Dick as a major player, but it's hard to complain about Blockbuster returning when we happily accept the return of over-used rogues like Scarecrow, Joker, Zod, and Lex Luthor


I think there is a really big difference between villains like Blockbuster and ones like Scarecrow, Joker, Zod, and Lex Luthor though. I'm sick of Joker stories more than anyone, but the latter are villains that people actually like and care about with some being the most famous villains in all of comics. They are part of some of the most well known stories ever and fans gravitate to them and want merch, mini series, figures, and other media adaptations of them. No one really cares a bout Blockbuster. People are only interested in Blockbuster because he is attached to Nightwing's hip, but he isn't a villain that can survive on his own. No one is out there saying we need a Blockbuster mini series or something. He is at best a C-tier villain who is mostly a knockoff of a much more famous Marvel villain in Kingpin. And having a villain like this be Nightwing's "archnemesis" will never elevate Nightwing beyond his current standing. If anything it prevents him from ever being looked at differently because only villains of Blockbuster level become who Nightwing is expected to fight which lowers his ceiling. 

It kind of speaks to a bigger problem I have with a lot of typical Nightwing stories. There isn't really a great Nightwing story with a top tier or iconic villain. All he ends up mostly fighting are C-tier or D-tier villains and it reinforces the idea that Nightwing isn't at the level to go against anyone bigger. He is only allowed to go against bigger villains when he gets dragged into a bigger book in some crossover that usually doesn't treat him well. I get that you can't just use old well known villains over and over, and I have no issue with cycling in lesser or new villains a creator wants to create sometimes, but when that is all we ever get it can get frustrating as it typically devolves into Nightwing struggling against these lesser villains over and over. 

I kind of wish this first arc in Taylor's run involved a bigger villain. Just so we could change the typical feeling of Nightwing or Bludhaven stories. I'll never care about Blockbuster, and I'm completely indifferent about Heartless since there is nothing to his character after 3 issues, but if this arc started out with a BIG Deathstroke, Riddler, or even Lex Luthor story then maybe this new run would feel differently. Where they are hitting the ground running putting Nightwing up against a villain that is a tier above typical Nightwing or Bludhaven villains. I feel like that would help break the character out of his typical ceiling, but we didn't get that. This arc just feels like more of the same with the only exception being Redondo's art. To me he is carrying the series hard, and I worry that he will be moved to a bigger book after the first arc or two and his art will have been wasted on stories about things like Bludhaven and Blockbuster which I'll never care about.

----------


## hairys

I have a feeling Taylor's run will rise and fall with Dick's reveal about how he will use his billion dollars to change Bludhaven in a way that Bruce was never able to do with Gotham.

It doesn't have to be realistic, per se, it just can't be freaking stupid.  Looking forward to see what Taylor can come up with.

----------


## Ascended

> I know you're not necessarily responding to my criticism here Ascended, but bear with me here lol.


Definitely not aiming my criticism at anyone in particular, and like I said the stuff that's annoying you guys is annoying me too, so my criticism applies to me as much as anyone else.  :Stick Out Tongue: 

And there's a lot of great posts here with some damn great points, but replying to all of them would be a novel so.....




> I'm just waiting to see the point to everything lol. I hope you can understand my disappointment.


Oh absolutely. I'm waiting for the point too. I get where y'all are coming from, I just think we're letting the recent past make us more pessimistic than is strictly warranted. I remember when the first couple issues of Grayson had come out, and a lot of people were still really against the direction and the story itself. And I remember when Invincible was just a well done, but standard, superhero book....until around issue 9, when the *real* story began. 

That's what I'm hoping for here; that Invincible moment where everything changes and you realize the first whole trade (or whatever) is really just the prologue. I think there's a few indicators that this might happen. I might be wrong. If recent history repeats, I will be. 

But right now I figure it's Schrödinger's Nightwing and I'm choosing optimism. 




> If it helps at all, I'll stop using Daredevil as a comparison starting now lol.


I haven't read Daredevil in years, so I have no idea what's going on in that book. There's always been a lot of surface similarity to these two, but I didn't know current events were playing so close to each other. 




> All I can do is hope the book delivers on just about anything moving forward, because so far it's delivering on nothing but fantastic art and decent dialogue. All things considered, that's a major step up from where the book was before. This isn't a post to say the book isn't as good as it needs to be, this is a post to say the book isn't being as good as it thinks it already is.


I totally agree with you here. This run has been, so far, well done basic bitch Nightwing. And I'll take well done basic bitch Nightwing over poorly done anything, but the run isn't living up to its own hype. So far. But we're already better off than we were so we're basically playing with the house's money. I'm willing to let this ride for a minute and hope for a big payout. And if I don't get it, I'm still walking away from the table with more than I had a year ago. If that makes any sense?




> To wrap this all up: I hope you, @Ascended, are right that after Issue seven maybe eight or nine there will be more to the story and the direction, then I might pay the +4 bucks again.


I hope I'm right too. I hope that if there is that Invincible moment, it doesn't take eight or nine issues to get there. And in the meantime, it *is* good art, and the dialogue *is* generally good. This is far from a bad comic, and I'm trying hard not to hate on DC for not giving me the Nightwing that only exists in my head.

----------


## Digifiend

> I haven't read Daredevil in years, so I have no idea what's going on in that book. There's always been a lot of surface similarity to these two, but I didn't know current events were playing so close to each other.


They're not - Matt Murdock isn't even Daredevil right now because he's in jail. Elektra is the current Daredevil.

----------


## dropkickjake

This book has gotta get back on a twice monthly schedule. I feel like the pacing of the story wouldn’t feel so slow if it wasn’t a month between issues.

----------


## Lady Nightwing

I feel like that would help the pacing issues but we'd probably have to get guest artists. I wouldn't like to lose Bruno Redondo. He's killing it right now

----------


## Rac7d*

> This book has gotta get back on a twice monthly schedule. I feel like the pacing of the story wouldn’t feel so slow if it wasn’t a month between issues.


I would love that
But Tom has so many books not sure if he could keep up

----------


## Drako

Dick was in Future State: Gotham and actually was better than i expected. He fought Jason for a little bit and had the upperhand.

He appeared in JL Last Ride too for what i gathered, but i think it's just a cameo.

----------


## JackJustMetMartin

Dick was in Batman – Earth One v3

Screenshot_20210608-170538.jpgScreenshot_20210608-170522.jpg

----------


## Badou

So they made Dick black in Earth One? I guess they got rid of him being Romani?

----------


## JackJustMetMartin

> So they made Dick black in Earth One? I guess they got rid of him being Romani?


Maybe he's half black half Romani? I believe he's Robin but these pictures are literally all we see of him so that's to be confirmed.

----------


## Badou

> Maybe he's half black half Romani? I believe he's Robin but these pictures are literally all we see of him so that's to be confirmed.


Dunno, you figure if they were going for more diversity they would have leaned into the Romani thing more since it has a history, but it seems that with the Joker thing Dick kind of got combined with Duke a little possibly.

----------


## RedQueen

They could've made John black and kept Mary Romani.  Still same result of being Romani.

----------


## BloodOps

> Dick was in Batman – Earth One v3
> 
> Screenshot_20210608-170538.jpgScreenshot_20210608-170522.jpg


What the ****.

----------


## Frontier

Isn't it just a Marlon Wayans Robin reference? I don't think they thought too deeply about it. 

Poor Duke when the main Robins keep getting race-bent black  :Stick Out Tongue: .

----------


## Hizashi

> Isn't it just a Marlon Wayans Robin reference? I don't think they thought too deeply about it. 
> 
> Poor Duke when the main Robins keep getting race-bent black .


Should've just used Duke. Oh well, I haven't been reading this so whatever.

----------


## HsssH

> Dunno, you figure if they were going for more diversity they would have leaned into the Romani thing more since it has a history, but it seems that with the Joker thing Dick kind of got combined with Duke a little possibly.


Dick being black is visually distinct, him being romani is not. Lets not pretend that more thought was put behind this decision by Geoff "I'm not racist" Johns.

----------


## Restingvoice

> Isn't it just a Marlon Wayans Robin reference? I don't think they thought too deeply about it.


Yep. My first thought too.

----------


## Frontier

I don't think anyone but hardcore Dick fans really pay any mind to the Romani aspect.

----------


## Badou

> Dick being black is visually distinct, him being romani is not. Lets not pretend that more thought was put behind this decision by Geoff "I'm not racist" Johns.


Yeah, that is my feelings on it. I don't think Johns put any thought into it other than to try and get some diversity points.

I guess I just find the Romani thing a bit strange at times. I mean we have Raptor who is 100% Romani and he has dark skin, right? So it stands out on purpose, but then what % Romani is Dick? They had to change it to his mom being Romani in the New 52 because of his dad being related to the whole Court of Owls now, but what % is Dick's mom? If she is 100% then Dick would be 50% Romani. Meaning that Dick is as "Asian" as a Damian. 

Then in the last few years there has been this BIG push to show Damian as being more Asian/Middle Eastern, right? They even had Damian as being one of the faces of DC's Asian Appreciation Month I think. Even though Damian was created to look like a mini clone of Bruce at first, but now some of his fans get upset if he isn't drawn more diverse looking, but I guess if Dick is 50% Romani and 50% English/European then he is as diverse as Damian or even a Cassandra Cain, right? It is all inconsistent I guess. There also was that movie poll a few years ago from the director or someone where Dick being Romani was one of the most important things fans wanted, which felt weird.

----------


## Vordan

Twitter/Tumblr are obsessed with it, but I promise the general audience doesn’t know or care about that at all. It’s just one of those little trivia bits that doesn’t affect Dick’s day to day life at all to be honest.

----------


## Frontier

> Twitter/Tumblr are obsessed with it, but I promise the general audience doesn’t know or care about that at all. It’s just one of those little trivia bits that doesn’t affect Dick’s day to day life at all to be honest.


Like there wasn't much fan fair about Brenton Thwaites not being Romani compared whether he could look or act the part.

----------


## Rac7d*

> I don't think anyone but hardcore Dick fans really pay any mind to the Romani aspect.


It did come from a writer who thought it would make him more exotic, so I ignore it.

----------


## Pohzee

> It did come from a writer who thought it would make him more exotic, so I ignore it.


I initially ignored it for similar reasons, but I feel like Seeley did right by incorporating it more tastefully into his origins. Its a central point for Better than Batman/Rise of the Raptor, which is for my money one of if not the best standalone Nightwing stories.

----------


## AmiMizuno

> Dick was in Future State: Gotham and actually was better than i expected. He fought Jason for a little bit and had the upperhand.
> 
> He appeared in JL Last Ride too for what i gathered, but i think it's just a cameo.


He made a cameo in Wonder Girl.

Also guys. The Nightwing Movie seems to be alive. Maybe unlike but still. With Batgirl maybe he can cameo 

https://amp.cinemablend.com/news/256...mpression=true

----------


## Vordan

> Like there wasn't much fan fair about Brenton Thwaites not being Romani compared whether he could look or act the part.


Other than Seeley most writers dont even bother to acknowledge it. Seeley did a good job and I love Raptor as an antagonist for Dick, so Im fine with it sticking around. Taylor might do something with it, but Im expecting Dicks carny heritage to be far more important given Taylor was a fire-eater once. But otherwise Dick is 100% white and it doesnt affect his day to day life in the slightest.

----------


## Avi

Dick by Marcio Takara



I don't think Takara is on any title right now... maybe it's for Urban Legends or Fear State?

----------


## Pohzee

> Dick by Marcio Takara
> 
> 
> 
> I don't think Takara is on any title right now... maybe it's for Urban Legends or Fear State?


Takara does a lot of Nightwing commissions. Plus, that looks like the New 52 costume with the logo and gauntlets. I'd love for him to get more work on the main book sometime though.

----------


## dietrich

> He made a cameo in Wonder Girl.
> 
> Also guys. The Nightwing Movie seems to be alive. Maybe unlike but still. With Batgirl maybe he can cameo 
> 
> https://amp.cinemablend.com/news/256...mpression=true


Great to see Dick's increased presence around the DCU

----------


## Frontier

I guess if we're still doing a Batgirl movie, we can still do a Nightwing movie.

----------


## Lal

I don't know if this site is reliable, but this book already looks like a better titans book than TTA -
https://subscriptions.dccomics.com/ipd/1424

----------


## Drako

> I don't know if this site is reliable, but this book already looks like a better titans book than TTA -
> https://subscriptions.dccomics.com/ipd/1424


Going by the price and the line up, looks like it's just the TPB release of that Digital first book they had last year called Titans Together.

edit: Or not. Looks like it's something else.

----------


## Korath

> I don't know if this site is reliable, but this book already looks like a better titans book than TTA -
> https://subscriptions.dccomics.com/ipd/1424


Disputable, at best. I wouldn't want Red Hood in such a group, he'll be schafted/painted in a bad light.

----------


## Lal

Not sure. Look at the creative team (different), and the lineup also includes Superboy. It looks like the TV Titans lineup.
Also, planned mini-series such as Deathstroke and Harley Quinn: The Animated Series are also listed on this site (again, I don't know how reliable it is) - 

https://subscriptions.dccomics.com/ipd/1421
https://subscriptions.dccomics.com/ipd/1422

----------


## Drako

Maybe is a tie-in book with the TV series. Season 3 starts in august, so launching a book about them in september kinda works.

----------


## Avi

> He made a cameo in Wonder Girl.
> 
> Also guys. The Nightwing Movie seems to be alive. Maybe unlike but still. With Batgirl maybe he can cameo 
> 
> https://amp.cinemablend.com/news/256...mpression=true


Nice. I'm still interested in McKay's vision.




> Takara does a lot of Nightwing commissions. Plus, that looks like the New 52 costume with the logo and gauntlets. I'd love for him to get more work on the main book sometime though.


You might be right. That he is sketching on a layout page is throwing me off. I haven't seen him draw commissions on those.  




> I don't know if this site is reliable, but this book already looks like a better titans book than TTA -
> https://subscriptions.dccomics.com/ipd/1424


Yeah, sounds like a tie-in, or semi-tie-in like Titans Together. Hmm... hard to say it looks better when it just sounds like another Titans cliché. Jason with the Titans proper just doesn't click with me, tbh.

----------


## Digifiend

> I don't know if this site is reliable, but this book already looks like a better titans book than TTA -
> https://subscriptions.dccomics.com/ipd/1424


100% reliable, as that's DC Comics' official website.

----------


## Rac7d*

> Disputable, at best. I wouldn't want Red Hood in such a group, he'll be schafted/painted in a bad light.


It’s the tv team

It’s Proably to accompany the show

----------


## Digifiend

Woah...
https://bleedingcool.com/comics/goth...mily-spoilers/

*spoilers:*
Melinda Zucco isn't who we think. Apparently, she's Dick's sister? Well, half-sister I guess? Gives Tony Zucco a new motive for killing the Graysons, if his wife had an affair with John.
*end of spoilers*

----------


## Pohzee

I guess some people here called it

----------


## Frontier

> Woah...
> https://bleedingcool.com/comics/goth...mily-spoilers/
> 
> *spoilers:*
> Melinda Zucco isn't who we think. Apparently, she's Dick's sister? Well, half-sister I guess? Gives Tony Zucco a new motive for killing the Graysons, if his wife had an affair with John.
> *end of spoilers*


Did we really need this?

*spoilers:*
Although kind of reminds me of when it turned out Raptor had the same name as Dick, implying Mary named him after Raptor.
*end of spoilers*

----------


## Murrocko

> Woah...
> https://bleedingcool.com/comics/goth...mily-spoilers/
> 
> *spoilers:*
> Melinda Zucco isn't who we think. Apparently, she's Dick's sister? Well, half-sister I guess? Gives Tony Zucco a new motive for killing the Graysons, if his wife had an affair with John.
> *end of spoilers*


Yeah, no. That's a huge pass for me. There's no way Taylor could spin this in a fashion that I'll be ok with this and not have the (over)reaction of dropping the book.

----------


## Frontier

Honestly that doesn't seem like something I think Taylor would seriously pull the trigger on. Or that DC would approve.

----------


## Drako

> Honestly that doesn't seem like something I think Taylor would seriously pull the trigger on. Or that DC would approve.


Scott Snyder did the same thing in his first arc with Batman.
It's not something that i want but i'll wait to read the book.

----------


## Frontier

> Scott Snyder did the same thing in his first arc with Batman.
> It's not something that i want but i'll wait to read the book.


Yeah, but it was still a bit of a "fake-out" and I don't think anyone still believes Lincoln March is actually Bruce's brother.

----------


## Avi

Taylor said on Twitter that some already have the Issue and that the *spoilers:*
 Melinda revelation is part of it. The editor added that it's gonna change the history of Nightwing 
*end of spoilers*, so I guess what BC says is very likely the truth.

The thing with Raptor is, he was already a pretty fleshed out character before his connection to Mary got revealed.

----------


## Drako

> Yeah, but it was still a bit of a "fake-out" and I don't think anyone still believes Lincoln March is actually Bruce's brother.


Yeah, i know. I didn't want this kinda of drama in the book, but we'll see.

----------


## Badou

> Woah...
> https://bleedingcool.com/comics/goth...mily-spoilers/
> 
> *spoilers:*
> Melinda Zucco isn't who we think. Apparently, she's Dick's sister? Well, half-sister I guess? Gives Tony Zucco a new motive for killing the Graysons, if his wife had an affair with John.
> *end of spoilers*


What a stupid fucking decision. We obviously called it here, but man what a complete letdown. I don't see any way for this not to be awful. Way to ruin a such amazing art with bad storytelling. 

*spoilers:*
Hopefully this is some kind of fake-out like what Lincoln March was, or what Bane was in that one awful storyline a long time ago where it was hinted he was Bruce's brother or something with had dad having an affair. Every time DC attempts these kind of stories they are always garbage. Dick has been a character for over 80 years and to give him some long lost sister he never knew about where his dad had some prior relationship with someone, or he cheated on his wife, to produce a kid is so stupid. All it does is ruin Dick's father. Then not only that but then to have her pretend to be Zucco's daughter too where she got adopted by his family and is probably on some stupid revenge quest against them is so dumb. I know many here have been defending Taylor's writing, but this feels completely undefendable to me.

Hopefully if this turns out not to be a fakeout she goes the way of Alfred's daughter and gets forgotten about after this run or something. This probably kills me buying any future issues too.
*end of spoilers*

----------


## Frontier

> What a stupid fucking decision. We obviously called it here, but man what a complete letdown. I don't see any way for this not to be awful. Way to ruin a such amazing art with bad storytelling. 
> 
> *spoilers:*
> Hopefully this is some kind of fake-out like what Lincoln March was, or what Bane was in that one awful storyline a long time ago where it was hinted he was Bruce's brother or something with had dad having an affair. Every time DC attempts these kind of stories they are always garbage. Dick has been a character for over 80 years and to give him some long lost sister he never knew about where his dad had some prior relationship with someone, or he cheated on his wife, to produce a kid is so stupid. All it does is ruin Dick's father. Then not only that but then to have her pretend to be Zucco's daughter too where she got adopted by his family and is probably on some stupid revenge quest against them is so dumb. I know many here have been defending Taylor's writing, but this feels completely undefendable to me.
> 
> Hopefully if this turns out not to be a fakeout she goes the way of Alfred's daughter and gets forgotten about after this run or something. This probably kills me buying any future issues too.
> *end of spoilers*


*spoilers:*
Oh yeah, Julia fell off the face of the Earth. I don't think they even mentioned her after Alfred died, despite the fact that she's in the Batwoman show.
*end of spoilers*

----------


## Badou

> *spoilers:*
> Oh yeah, Julia fell off the face of the Earth. I don't think they even mentioned her after Alfred died, despite the fact that she's in the Batwoman show.
> *end of spoilers*


*spoilers:*
That is all we can hope for. That she just get forgotten about and falls into limbo to never be seen again like Alfred's daughter, or maybe some future Nightwing writer will retcon the connection at least. I'm always against these kind of stories that retroactively tries to ruin character's parents for stupid drama. They are never good and just cause way more problems. 

I felt the same way during the Raptor thing where Seeley hinted that Raptor could be Dick's actual father with that page of him making out with Dick's mom. It is what prevented me from liking Raptor as a character.
*end of spoilers*

----------


## Godlike13

Eeh, doesn’t seem like a big deal to me. If it works there’s a new character in his mythos, if it doesn’t they’ll just fade away. 

Besides, 
*spoilers:*
Raptor might be his real father anyway  :Stick Out Tongue: . Which I liked Seeley dropping that tease as he takes a bow. You want to play with your readers as a writer.
*end of spoilers*

----------


## Badou

> Eeh, doesn’t seem like a big deal to me. If it works there’s a new character in his mythos, if it doesn’t they’ll just fade away. 
> 
> Besides, 
> *spoilers:*
> Raptor might be his real father anyway . Which I liked Seeley dropping that tease as he takes a bow. You want to play with your readers as a writer.
> *end of spoilers*


You've been driving that Tayor bandwagon so hard that he could say that Dick was a robot from the future all along and you'd call it a clever twist, lol.  :Stick Out Tongue: 

*spoilers:*
I'm just never a fan of stories that ruin a character's parents for cheap drama. It's such a lazy writing technique, especially when the parents are dead. So I thought the Raptor thing with Dick's mom was stupid and pointless, and I could have sworn when I mentioned it at the time if Seeley was hinting at him being Dick's real father that you were very against that notion, but maybe that was someone else. Been like 4 years now. At least with Raptor Seeley tried to build him up before the stupid tease, so he had some kind of character, but the Melinda character for Taylor is completely propped up on the drama of being Dick's lost sister, which never works. She is going to be sent to limbo in a few years with everyone remembering how dumb the whole plot was. 

With this new "reveal" I just don't like how it ruins Dick's father potentially for more cheep drama. But when you are stuck writing in a dull setting like Bludhaven, and reusing dead horses like Zucco and Blockbuster, this is the kind of awful stories that it breeds. Just a lack of any real creativity. I already didn't think Tayor's writing was very good, but having to now drag around this sister plot is just going to be such a chore to get through.
*end of spoilers*

----------


## dropkickjake

laaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaame

But I'll let it change my mind if it can.

----------


## Iclifton

This run is good and the best solo Nightwing run we have had since Grayson. Who cares if John made a mistake and had an affair. Kind of a dick move yeah, but it does not automatically make him a bad person. Besides does anyone really have an attachment to John Grayson, like has he ever been a three dimensional character? Excited to see how this plays out and happy to have new characters specific to the Grayson mythos. Enjoying this runs more character centric focus.

----------


## Godlike13

> You've been driving that Tayor bandwagon so hard that he could say that Dick was a robot from the future all along and you'd call it a clever twist, lol. 
> 
> *spoilers:*
> I'm just never a fan of stories that ruin a character's parents for cheap drama. It's such a lazy writing technique, especially when the parents are dead. So I thought the Raptor thing with Dick's mom was stupid and pointless, and I could have sworn when I mentioned it at the time if Seeley was hinting at him being Dick's real father that you were very against that notion, but maybe that was someone else. Been like 4 years now. At least with Raptor Seeley tried to build him up before the stupid tease, so he had some kind of character, but the Melinda character for Taylor is completely propped up on the drama of being Dick's lost sister, which never works. She is going to be sent to limbo in a few years with everyone remembering how dumb the whole plot was. 
> 
> With this new "reveal" I just don't like how it ruins Dick's father potentially for more cheep drama. But when you are stuck writing in a dull setting like Bludhaven, and reusing dead horses like Zucco and Blockbuster, this is the kind of awful stories that it breeds. Just a lack of any real creativity. I already didn't think Tayor's writing was very good, but having to now drag around this sister plot is just going to be such a chore to get through.
> *end of spoilers*


Taylor hasn’t revealed anything. Your going off leaks as if that’s the complete story or the intended way it’s suppose to be presented. These reveals don’t inherently bother me. They take care of themselves. Like I said, if there is worth to them more things will be done, if not then they just disappear to the wayside and we all just move on.
But I’m not just gonna poop on the idea before I see it have a chance to play out. I even gave Ric the benefit of the the doubt. It wasn’t till they announce the creators executing the idea that I was like oh, shit. We’re in trouble. I’m not gonna turn my nose up because the first relevant creators the character has seen in years wants to play with toys i don’t think they should play with. Taylor and Redondo are operating in ways that pleases me, I’m not ignoring the things I think they are doing well because I for instance just can’t see beyond Bludhaven or my own conceptions on what I think this run should be. Im certainly not a fan of Dick and Tim team ups, but that didn’t stop the last issue from being IMO their best yet. Cause it was a thing of beauty to look at, and the writer had enough sense to realize that. 

 I’m not looking for Ric where clueless writers think they are doing something modern and bold, but don’t even actually know how to do something new and bold. But I’m not against writers playing with the perceived notions of their audience. I thought what Seeley did was highly amusing. Leaving that kind of tease for the readers to chew on as he walks. That was bold. I respect that. It wasn’t something that was supposed to be easy to digest, but to make readers uncomfortable and question it.

----------


## Badou

> Not too be rude, but man Grayson fans wine about literally everything. The story has to be precise cocktail of exact preferred story elements to even be considered decent.  Its very obvious this run is good and the best solo Nightwing run we have had since Grayson. Who cares if John made a mistake and had an affair. Kind of a dick move yeah, but it does not automatically make him a bad person. Besides does anyone really have an attachment to John Grayson, like has he ever been a three dimensional character? Excited to see how this plays out and happy to have new characters specific to the Grayson mythos. Enjoying this runs more character centric focus.


So because Dick's father hasn't been fleshed out well is a reason to throw dirt on him? What is wrong with having Dick's parents in a committed loving relationship? Does every hero need their parents to have some dark past? It's so tiring. The biggest reason writers don't used Dick's father more is because they don't want to diminish Dick's relationship to Bruce and want Bruce to be THE father/family focus of Dick's character. That is very obvious. They did that with all the Robin's fathers. They pretty much destroyed Tim's whole family to make him revolve around Bruce more as his father figure. 

I mean writers can show John Grayson in a good light and build him up in more stories. I'd be all for that, but this kind of lazy drama never works. Comics are littered with these same stories and they always end up being such a waste of time. So instead of spending time on more interesting plots we get stuck with one most don't care about or even wanted. To me it is a waste of Redondo's art.

I've been consistent in my opinion on this run. I think it is the best art that has ever been in a Nightwing book, but I don't think the writing is that good and I think Bludhaven is an awful setting. So far nothing has changed my opinion on those things. Cheap family drama isn't going to help with that, and the forced Zucco connection is going to make it even more convoluted.

----------


## Iclifton

No that`s not the reason. The reason for this plot development has not yet been revealed . We do not even know if he had an affair. But instead of going into the story with an open mind everyone is trashing it. The point is, John is not some sacred character. He is free game. We do not know if it will be lazy drama or if it will be used in a way to explore Dick Grayson, just like his new inheritance is. As of yet there has been no unnecessary drama in the book. 

Yes, I know, I have read your posts. It is obvious as long as the book is in Bludhaven your gong to hate it. As Nightwing is my favorite character, I only care about good stories. It does not matter to me where, what or when regarding plot.

----------


## Badou

> Taylor hasnt revealed anything. Your going off leaks as if thats the complete story or the intended way its suppose to be presented. These reveals dont inherently bother me. They take care of themselves. Like I said, if there is worth to them more things will be done, if not then they just disappear to the wayside and we all just move on.
> But Im not just gonna poop on the idea before I see it have a chance to play out. I even gave Ric the benefit of the the doubt. It wasnt till they announce the creators executing the idea that I was like oh, shit. Were in trouble. Im not gonna turn my nose up because the first relevant creators the character has seen in years wants to play with toys i dont think they should play with. Taylor and Redondo are operating in ways that pleases me, Im not ignoring the things I think they are doing well because I for instance just cant see beyond Bludhaven or my own conceptions on what I think this run should be. Im certainly not a fan of Dick and Tim team ups, but that didnt stop the last issue from being IMO their best yet. Cause it was a thing of beauty to look at, and the writer had enough sense to realize that. 
> 
>  Im not looking for Ric where clueless writers think they are doing something modern and bold, but dont even actually know how to do something new and bold. But Im not against writers playing with the perceived notions of their audience. I thought what Seeley did was highly amusing. Leaving that kind of tease for the readers to chew on as he walks. That was bold. I respect that. It wasnt something that was supposed to be easy to digest, but to make readers uncomfortable and question it.


Taylor had won you over before the first issue even came out. You looked at him as a relevant creator and because of that you were willing to overlook things you probably wouldn't for lesser writers. There is nothing wrong with feeling that way of course, you are already committed to putting your trust in him, but that is just the opposite to how I feel. I'm not willing to give creators the benefit of the doubt regardless of status. Maybe because I am too cynical now. Still, Taylor has to win me over and so far he as not and the story and things he is setting up aren't things that are probably going to lead to me looking at him any differently. He was already facing a near impossible challenge because of Bludhaven and Blockbuster, and as this story has unfolded I feel more right in my opinions, but even with trying to be objective as I can be I don't think the writing as been all that strong in this book. Redondo is carrying the series hard. So I can't just unconditionally trust a writer and plots with bad setups when I don't think he is doing a good job. 

But this is a kind of storyline that pops up every year in superhero comics. Apparently they just did it in Spider-man a few years ago and just recently retconned it? It's so lazy. Sure, it could all be a fake-out, or something completely different, and these are why writers do these kind of stories. It's soap opera drama where they want to keep you coming back for the next issue/episode and keep you asking questions with each new shocking "reveal". I think also arrogance also plays a role in wanting to be the creator that changes a 80+ year old character's history in a dramatic way, which is maybe why it keeps happening over and over despite the stories never working.

----------


## dropkickjake

> Taylor had won you over before the first issue even came out. You looked at him as a relevant creator and because of that you were willing to overlook things you probably wouldn't for lesser writers. There is nothing wrong with feeling that way of course, you are already committed to putting your trust in him, but that is just the opposite to how I feel. I'm not willing to give creators the benefit of the doubt regardless of status. Maybe because I am too cynical now. Still, Taylor has to win me over and so far he as not and the story and things he is setting up aren't things that are probably going to lead to me looking at him any differently. He was already facing a near impossible challenge because of Bludhaven and Blockbuster, and as this story has unfolded I feel more right in my opinions, but even with trying to be objective as I can be I don't think the writing as been all that strong in this book. Redondo is carrying the series hard. So I can't just unconditionally trust a writer and plots with bad setups when I don't think he is doing a good job. 
> 
> But this is a kind of storyline that pops up every year in superhero comics. Apparently they just did it in Spider-man a few years ago and just recently retconned it? It's so lazy. Sure, it could all be a fake-out, or something completely different, and these are why writers do these kind of stories. It's soap opera drama where they want to keep you coming back for the next issue/episode and keep you asking questions with each new shocking "reveal". I think also arrogance also plays a role in wanting to be the creator that changes a 80+ year old character's history in a dramatic way, which is maybe why it keeps happening over and over despite the stories never working.


Maybe don’t inform people of how or when they make decisions about stories?

Edit: felt a little out of line there. Apologies.

----------


## Frontier

> No that`s not the reason. The reason for this plot development has not yet been revealed . We do not even know if he had an affair. But instead of going into the story with an open mind everyone is trashing it. The point is, John is not some sacred character. He is free game. We do not know if it will be lazy drama or if it will be used in a way to explore Dick Grayson, just like his new inheritance is. As of yet there has been no unnecessary drama in the book. 
> 
> Yes, I know, I have read your posts. It is obvious as long as the book is in Bludhaven your gong to hate it. As Nightwing is my favorite character, I only care about good stories. It does not matter to me where, what or when regarding plot.


I mean, Dick is driven in part by the death of his parents who he looked up to (not to the same extent as Bruce, but still) so I think their moral character does hold some importance. 

I'm not against Taylor or Bludhaven and even I think this will possibly end up being a really unnecessary story point.

----------


## Drako

> I mean, Dick is driven in part by the death of his parents who he looked up to (not to the same extent as Bruce, but still) so I think their moral character does hold some importance.


Keep in mind we still don't know the full story yet, but you think Dick would not want to capture the killer of his parents cause of this?

It changes nothing. John still is his pops, still loved him.

----------


## Badou

> Maybe don’t inform people of how or when they make decisions about stories? I’m sure you aren’t a pompous fella, but it can sorta come off that way. Not a great look.


Might need to read a bit closer next time. It was all a response to Godlike informing of my own opinion with the _"I’m not ignoring the things I think they are doing well because I for instance just can’t see beyond Bludhaven or my own conceptions on what I think this run should be"_ line. I don't feel offended that he feels that way about my opinions, but I also think him putting his complete trust into Taylor because he thinks he is a big named and talented writer is fine too. I'm just not willing to do the same for the reasons I've stated already.

----------


## dropkickjake

> Might need to read a bit closer next time. It was all a response to Godlike informing of my own opinion with the _"I’m not ignoring the things I think they are doing well because I for instance just can’t see beyond Bludhaven or my own conceptions on what I think this run should be"_ line. I don't feel offended that he feels that way about my opinions, but I also think him putting his complete trust into Taylor because he thinks he is a big named and talented writer is fine too. I'm just not willing to do the same for the reasons I've stated already.


Yeah I did miss that. Also edited the post because I felt I was bit out of line. You have my apology for that.

----------


## Badou

> Yeah I did miss that. Also edited the post because I felt I was bit out of line. You have my apology for that.


No worries. I can completely see how my post would have come across like that. If Godlike feels offended by it then I'm sorry to him as well.

----------


## Rakiduam

> This run is good and the best solo Nightwing run we have had since Grayson. Who cares if John made a mistake and had an affair. Kind of a dick move yeah, but it does not automatically make him a bad person. Besides does anyone really have an attachment to John Grayson, like has he ever been a three dimensional character? Excited to see how this plays out and happy to have new characters specific to the Grayson mythos. Enjoying this runs more character centric focus.


I care. it's bad enough that nothing is been built now they are trashing the past for cheap melodrama. I would think that Dick is attached to his dad.

They really have nothing new to offer, character centric focus is basically treading water without doing anything worthy of remembering by now. I'm as exited about a half sister as I was about they thief uncle that Grayson introduced on her run, I'm sure it's going to be almost as succeful as that one.

This is so basic and unoriginal that everybody guess it when they posted the solicitation.

----------


## Godlike13

> Taylor had won you over before the first issue even came out. You looked at him as a relevant creator and because of that you were willing to overlook things you probably wouldn't for lesser writers. There is nothing wrong with feeling that way of course, you are already committed to putting your trust in him, but that is just the opposite to how I feel. I'm not willing to give creators the benefit of the doubt regardless of status. Maybe because I am too cynical now. Still, Taylor has to win me over and so far he as not and the story and things he is setting up aren't things that are probably going to lead to me looking at him any differently. He was already facing a near impossible challenge because of Bludhaven and Blockbuster, and as this story has unfolded I feel more right in my opinions, but even with trying to be objective as I can be I don't think the writing as been all that strong in this book. Redondo is carrying the series hard. So I can't just unconditionally trust a writer and plots with bad setups when I don't think he is doing a good job. 
> 
> But this is a kind of storyline that pops up every year in superhero comics. Apparently they just did it in Spider-man a few years ago and just recently retconned it? It's so lazy. Sure, it could all be a fake-out, or something completely different, and these are why writers do these kind of stories. It's soap opera drama where they want to keep you coming back for the next issue/episode and keep you asking questions with each new shocking "reveal". I think also arrogance also plays a role in wanting to be the creator that changes a 80+ year old character's history in a dramatic way, which is maybe why it keeps happening over and over despite the stories never working.


This plot hasn’t even been set up though. We got a leak, not the story setting it up, but nevertheless it’s vindication. Your not even really judging the job their doing here. Lesser writers are lesser because their work is less than. Not just in the ideas, but in the ways they present those ideas. How they formate them, structure them, and ultimately execute them. With dated techniques like padded intros, and overwriting explaining to readers every action and thought. Your not seeing this here. There is a comfort in that that opens up more latitude for the ideas with me. 
I’m not hiding it, they did win me over with Taylor. That was not a name I was expecting to see on the title. I also understand though I’m not going to get every single thing I might want. I don’t hate Bludhaven, but I certainly fell out of favor with it. But ok. What can you do. You take the wins where they’re at. We finally got some decent creators so why not see what they can do with it. Another thing is that I came into this understanding the character’s vulnerable position, and the logic to leaning on things and reintroducing stuff I personally might be bored with but are like it or not staples of his mythos. So I like creators, I understand the why behind the ideas, so ya Im coming in with a more open view and expectations that I might otherwise not in a different situation.  

With Raptor, that wasn’t what the Raptor story was actually about. It was a mic drop at the very end, to leave readers questioning what they thought they knew. They could have left that out and Raptor would still be the best villain Nightwing has seen in decades. Of course it’s all drama though. That’s the game. But the thing is it doesn’t really change the character history. Dick’s history still plays out the same, it just makes readers maybe relook at it in a different way. That’s why it’s not that big a deal, and will live or die on the merits of its execution. It’s Dr. Hurt vs Lincoln March. We don’t know really what we’re even getting here.

----------


## Frontier

I honestly keep forgetting about that Raptor thing because it was so last-minute  :Stick Out Tongue: .

Not sure why Taylor is doing this other than to set up your new favorite original female character or something.

----------


## Badou

> With Raptor, that wasn’t what the Raptor story was actually about. It was a mic drop at the very end, to leave readers questioning what they thought they knew. They could have left that out and Raptor would still be the best villain Nightwing has seen in decades. Of course it’s all drama though. That’s the game. But the thing is it doesn’t really change the character history. Dick’s history still plays out the same, it just makes readers maybe relook at it in a different way. That’s why it’s not that big a deal, and will live or die on the merits of its execution. It’s Dr. Hurt vs Lincoln March. We don’t know really what we’re even getting here.


I never really looked at the Raptor thing as a mic drop. I think Seeley knew what he wanted to do from the beginning with his first arc, and it wasn't this shocking reveal once we knew that Raptor was close with Dick's mom shown earlier in the run. I feel like people even back then were speculating on it because Raptor kept talking about Dick's mom so much. The first arc was titled "Better than Batman" where Raptor was introduced and I think Seeley with that title was trying to show that maybe Raptor was better for Dick than Bruce, that he should have been the one to take in Dick, and finally that he might be his actual father. At least coming from Raptor's perspective. 

The issue with this is that removing John Grayson as Dick's father does change things, like the the Court of Owls connection. Then he is no longer related to William Cobb/Talon so fans of that would be upset. The problem also is that Raptor is like a C or D list villain, who has no real weight behind him, and to reduce Dick's father to being that is kind of not worth it. So the whole tease was blah. Since at the moment Raptor is getting his face beaten in by Green Arrow's son in that Robin series, right? For that to be Dick's dad is kind of pathetic, haha. 

But these kind of secret family drama stories never work out. I don't expect this one with Taylor to be any different. The only ones that have any staying power are when you introduce surprise kids of the heroes, as they can then get slotted into some legacy role that might keep them around. Other than that comics are filled with secret family members that were basically a waste of time for cheap drama.  

I mean remember that just last year Jurgens introduced Dick's grandparents, who apparently took in Dick before Bruce did after his parents died, and they were secret Court of Owl operatives used to manipulate Dick? No one remembers this at all because it was an awful story, but it happened. All of this stuff is in the same boat for me. Just needless family drama that never goes anywhere other than to paint Dick's own parents in a bad light for a bit. You see it so much in comics. I get why Taylor is doing it. He is trying to give Dick some personal connection to Bludhaven, since he has none, and making its mayor related to Dick like this is his attempt to give Bludhaven some validation, but of course I don't think it will work. Also to drag back in the Zucco drama where they want Dick to be like Bruce more in that he can't fully escape or move on from his parent's death probably. Higgins was like that too when he wanted to turn Zucco into Dick's own Joker or something originally.

----------


## Ascended

> laaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaame
> 
> But I'll let it change my mind if it can.


Definitely isn't something that grabs my interest either.

But I'll let the story tell me what's going on and make up my mind then. I don't take BC seriously either, even if they seem to be on point with this. 

I figure there's two ways this can go. It can either be Cobalt Blue all over again, where Wally meets the long lost and random twin brother of Barry (and it was awful, despite being surrounded by a cool "Flashes of the future team up" story), or it could be Lincoln March where it's basically just empty buzz and misdirect meant to hype a new character (and that's not so bad). 

If this goes the way of March then Taylor will have done his job right, keeping us on the edge of our seats and ensuring we don't forget this newest Zucco anytime soon, but ultimately not hurting Dick, his father, or the history. If this goes the way of Blue, then it's damned stupid and cliched. 

I doubt we'll know for sure which this is until the end of the arc, if not later.

----------


## Rakiduam

> Definitely isn't something that grabs my interest either.
> 
> But I'll let the story tell me what's going on and make up my mind then. I don't take BC seriously either, even if they seem to be on point with this. 
> 
> I figure there's two ways this can go. It can either be Cobalt Blue all over again, where Wally meets the long lost and random twin brother of Barry (and it was awful, despite being surrounded by a cool "Flashes of the future team up" story), or it could be Lincoln March where it's basically just empty buzz and misdirect meant to hype a new character (and that's not so bad). 
> 
> If this goes the way of March then Taylor will have done his job right, keeping us on the edge of our seats and ensuring we don't forget this newest Zucco anytime soon, but ultimately not hurting Dick, his father, or the history. If this goes the way of Blue, then it's damned stupid and cliched. 
> 
> I doubt we'll know for sure which this is until the end of the arc, if not later.


Of course, if Taylor is copying Snyder is good if he's copying Wally's story is cliche, that makes sense. After all Taylor is the guy that killed Dick with a rock, he has already showed how well he can develop a bad idea.

That's why the book has been so slow and lacking in action, we weren't supposed to get excited about what Dick is doing now. No, the exciting part is what his dad did years and years ago.

----------


## Murrocko

First Court of Owls/William Cobb, then Raptor, and now this shit if true, are these really the only stories writers can come up with for Nightwing anymore?

----------


## Digifiend

https://aiptcomics.com/2021/06/11/dc...-nightwing-81/

----------


## Frontier

Well, that happened...

----------


## Rakiduam

As long as there isn't a rock close by Nightwing may survive this.

----------


## Mr. White

> https://aiptcomics.com/2021/06/11/dc...-nightwing-81/





> Well, that happened...


Like...




> As long as there isn't a rock close by Nightwing may survive this.



Lol. Stop it.

---
On this whole identity thing, I hope it's a fake out of some sort. 

I do feel like "crapping" on dead characters (who as far as we know were, for lack of a better word, clean) is a tired old and easy-out (lazy) trope which IMO should be avoided at all costs. This being done to one of my favorite characters rubs me the wrong way.

As others have said, _let's wait and see_. I generally find Taylor's writing/books to my taste and I'm enjoying this current run despite its slow (worldbuilding?) pace so for now, I'm giving him the benefit of the doubt.

----------


## Avi

Lol. Just gonna quote myself.




> Like, I don't expect Dick to give the same beat down to Heartless he gave to KGBeast, but I hope there is some meat to that fight in the next Issue. If they fight.

----------


## Godlike13

> I never really looked at the Raptor thing as a mic drop. I think Seeley knew what he wanted to do from the beginning with his first arc, and it wasn't this shocking reveal once we knew that Raptor was close with Dick's mom shown earlier in the run. I feel like people even back then were speculating on it because Raptor kept talking about Dick's mom so much. The first arc was titled "Better than Batman" where Raptor was introduced and I think Seeley with that title was trying to show that maybe Raptor was better for Dick than Bruce, that he should have been the one to take in Dick, and finally that he might be his actual father. At least coming from Raptor's perspective. 
> 
> The issue with this is that removing John Grayson as Dick's father does change things, like the the Court of Owls connection. Then he is no longer related to William Cobb/Talon so fans of that would be upset. The problem also is that Raptor is like a C or D list villain, who has no real weight behind him, and to reduce Dick's father to being that is kind of not worth it. So the whole tease was blah. Since at the moment Raptor is getting his face beaten in by Green Arrow's son in that Robin series, right? For that to be Dick's dad is kind of pathetic, haha. 
> 
> But these kind of secret family drama stories never work out. I don't expect this one with Taylor to be any different. The only ones that have any staying power are when you introduce surprise kids of the heroes, as they can then get slotted into some legacy role that might keep them around. Other than that comics are filled with secret family members that were basically a waste of time for cheap drama.  
> 
> I mean remember that just last year Jurgens introduced Dick's grandparents, who apparently took in Dick before Bruce did after his parents died, and they were secret Court of Owl operatives used to manipulate Dick? No one remembers this at all because it was an awful story, but it happened. All of this stuff is in the same boat for me. Just needless family drama that never goes anywhere other than to paint Dick's own parents in a bad light for a bit. You see it so much in comics. I get why Taylor is doing it. He is trying to give Dick some personal connection to Bludhaven, since he has none, and making its mayor related to Dick like this is his attempt to give Bludhaven some validation, but of course I don't think it will work. Also to drag back in the Zucco drama where they want Dick to be like Bruce more in that he can't fully escape or move on from his parent's death probably. Higgins was like that too when he wanted to turn Zucco into Dick's own Joker or something originally.


John still raised him as his son, and the major beats still play out the same nevertheless. Cobb and Court don’t seem to care either. As Talon’s aren’t about lineage anyway. John isn’t particularly special. The idea that Raptor could be his father wasn’t the driving force behind the story, from Raptor’s perspective the motivation was Dick forgetting where he came from. The important thing was that he was Mary’s son to Raptor. That he could have been Dick’s dad was a total mic drop. Seeley leaving and going, oh btw. This dude could maybe be his dad. Bye. Of course he knew what he was leaving readers with. That’s why it was so amusing.

----------


## Frontier

> John still raised him as his son, and the major beats still play out the same nevertheless. Cobb and Court don’t seem to care either. As Talon’s aren’t about lineage anyway. John isn’t particularly special. The idea that Raptor could be his father wasn’t the driving force behind the story, from Raptor’s perspective the motivation was Dick forgetting where he came from. The important thing was that he was Mary’s son to Raptor. That he could have been Dick’s dad was a total mic drop. Seeley leaving and going, oh btw. This dude could maybe be his dad. Bye. Of course he knew what he was leaving readers with. That’s why it was so amusing.


Well, I think he's special by virtue of being Dick's biological dad. 

I don't think Seeley needed to be that kind of...troll-ish? But I guess what one finds amusing is all dependent on perspective...

----------


## HsssH

All the talk about Raptor makes me wonder if Taylor isn't going to bring that up and kinda connect it all? Dick's parents didn't have a good relationship with each other, both were unfaithful, but stayed married so that Dick could have a "normal family"? I'm sure that someone can write a compelling story about all that, but then you add in Court of Owls and Dick's entire background becomes complex nightmare, no? I mean, Bruce's parents are often shown to have had some contacts with other "important" people, but at the end of the day they still were just some rich couple that were shot in a robbery. 

Looking at the preview, its going to be real funny (in a bad way) when Dick will be saved by either Tim or Babs or both. Hey, maybe even some kid will help him. And sure, when you reveal a new villain you don't really want to have hero beat him on the first try. But problem is that Dick hasn't really done anything in previous 3 issues and if this trend continues then long lost sister won't even be the reason why I'll drop this run.

----------


## Drako

Raptor had a relationship with Mary when they were younger. I never had the impression that he could be Dick's father.

----------


## Frontier

> Raptor had a relationship with Mary when they were younger. I never had the impression that he could be Dick's father.


Yeah, I mean, it's weird naming your kid after your old lover but I don't think Dick was really Raptor's kid, he just heavily projected on him.

----------


## Avi

> Yeah, I mean, it's weird naming your kid after your old lover but I don't think Dick was really Raptor's kid, he just heavily projected on him.


Raptor was/is so obsessive over Mary and so against John, it's easy to take his every word with a grain of salt. Richard might not even be his real name.

----------


## Restingvoice

> John still raised him as his son, and the major beats still play out the same nevertheless. Cobb and Court dont seem to care either. As Talons arent about lineage anyway. John isnt particularly special. The idea that Raptor could be his father wasnt the driving force behind the story, from Raptors perspective the motivation was Dick forgetting where he came from. The important thing was that he was Marys son to Raptor. That he could have been Dicks dad was a total mic drop. Seeley leaving and going, oh btw. This dude could maybe be his dad. Bye. Of course he knew what he was leaving readers with. Thats why it was so amusing.


The Cobb and Grayson part matters because Cobb's viewpoint is Dick's a Grayson and he should be Talon. Him creating a whole line of family as an expression of revenge is his design, and Dick fighting against that to show that design means nothing to him since his own choice matters more.

----------


## Rakiduam

> All the talk about Raptor makes me wonder if Taylor isn't going to bring that up and kinda connect it all? Dick's parents didn't have a good relationship with each other, both were unfaithful, but stayed married so that Dick could have a "normal family"? I'm sure that someone can write a compelling story about all that, but then you add in Court of Owls and Dick's entire background becomes complex nightmare, no? I mean, Bruce's parents are often shown to have had some contacts with other "important" people, but at the end of the day they still were just some rich couple that were shot in a robbery.


Higgins talked about this years (a decade?) ago. That it feel important to Dick's origin that his family, like Bruce's, was victim of random violence.

They weren't targeted, they weren't chosen, just passing by like it could happen to anyone. And he did his best effort to incorporate the entire "Gray son of Gotham" without altering that aspect of the story.

Right now it feel like edditoria is playing Jenga with the characters, seen how many chunks of the base they can take to put in top before the whole thing comes crashing down.

----------


## Godlike13

> The Cobb and Grayson part matters because Cobb's viewpoint is Dick's a Grayson and he should be Talon. Him creating a whole line of family as an expression of revenge is his design, and Dick fighting against that to show that design means nothing to him since his own choice matters more.


Dick still is a Grayson. Cobb isn’t even a major beat, but a relatively new retcon they also later introduced into his history. What’s more he was a peon, and wouldn't be anymore aware then John was. Cobb was one of many Talons they recruited through Haley’s. His designs while dramatic are ultimately inconsequential. He didn’t pick Dick, and Dick wasn’t picked because of his genetics. But because of his prowess and the Courts connection to the circus. Cobb isn't part of the Court, but one of their slaves they use to carry out their whims.

----------


## Ascended

> All the talk about Raptor makes me wonder if Taylor isn't going to bring that up and kinda connect it all? Dick's parents didn't have a good relationship with each other, both were unfaithful, but stayed married so that Dick could have a "normal family"? I'm sure that someone can write a compelling story about all that, but then you add in Court of Owls and Dick's entire background becomes complex nightmare, no? I mean, Bruce's parents are often shown to have had some contacts with other "important" people, but at the end of the day they still were just some rich couple that were shot in a robbery.


I think a big part of it is writers/DC trying to expand on Dick's circus origins, the stuff that belongs to him and him alone that isn't given to him by Bruce or the Titans. I think DC has tried to make the early years of Dick's life more important to his narrative, so the IP can stand on its own two feet more. And I approve of the general idea, if not the way they've executed it.

Adding onto that, there's a dark side to "carny folk" that entertainment likes to zero in on, and audiences love the deep shadows lurking behind the neon lights. So you get stuff like the Owls using Haly's to groom potential new Talons (which is actually pretty f*cking brilliant from a villain standpoint, you gotta admit) and you've got Dick's grandfather there to embody that narrative foil. You get Dick's parents not being perfect, wonderful people who never did nothing wrong, now there's maybe some stress in the marriage, some mistakes being made....though I'm pretty sure that's mostly just been hinted at and not said for sure and true from reliable narrators. 

I don't think it convolutes the back story too much. At least not in concept. Maybe some of the specific stories and details need to be clarified or ignored, but I don't think the basic idea bogs down the origin. Definitely ignore the idea that Dick's some semi-prophesied figure among the Owls, just say he was a candidate with potential (especially given his family history) and nothing more. Boil it all down to "Dick grew up in a circus surrounded by a family that loved him, but the circus had some dark secrets too. Dick's parents die when Zucco shakes down Haly for protection money, and Dick is taken in by Bruce. And hence Robin was born." 

I figure this is equivalent to fleshing out and developing Krypton. And the fact that Doomsday was engineered on Krypton, or that Lara nearly married Zod, or the clone wars, or Rao-ism, none of that really impacts the basic status quo unless the story specifically calls for it. It only matters when you want it to.




> Looking at the preview, its going to be real funny (in a bad way) when Dick will be saved by either Tim or Babs or both. Hey, maybe even some kid will help him. And sure, when you reveal a new villain you don't really want to have hero beat him on the first try. But problem is that Dick hasn't really done anything in previous 3 issues and if this trend continues then long lost sister won't even be the reason why I'll drop this run.


Oh we are most definitely due a big ass win. Dick getting punked the last few issues...okay, sure, ha ha. That's minor. That's fun (a mean kinda fun, but still). But us wingnuts have been waiting a long time to see Nightwing get his due, and it's time to pay up. I don't normally believe in fan entitlement, but since 2006 Nightwing has been on DC's sh*t list, and we are owed.

----------


## Avi

> Higgins talked about this years (a decade?) ago. That it feel important to Dick's origin that his family, like Bruce's, was victim of random violence.
> 
> They weren't targeted, they weren't chosen, just passing by like it could happen to anyone. And he did his best effort to incorporate the entire "Gray son of Gotham" without altering that aspect of the story.
> 
> Right now it feel like edditoria is playing Jenga with the characters, seen how many chunks of the base they can take to put in top before the whole thing comes crashing down.


I remember a quote like that. Seems par for the course for Higgins. And I agree. I hope it won't be changed, no matter what might happen next Issue. 




> *I think a big part of it is writers/DC trying to expand on Dick's circus origins, the stuff that belongs to him and him alone that isn't given to him by Bruce or the Titans. I think DC has tried to make the early years of Dick's life more important to his narrative, so the IP can stand on its own two feet more. And I approve of the general idea, if not the way they've executed it.*
> 
> Adding onto that, there's a dark side to "carny folk" that entertainment likes to zero in on, and audiences love the deep shadows lurking behind the neon lights. So you get stuff like the Owls using Haly's to groom potential new Talons (which is actually pretty f*cking brilliant from a villain standpoint, you gotta admit) and you've got Dick's grandfather there to embody that narrative foil. You get Dick's parents not being perfect, wonderful people who never did nothing wrong, now there's maybe some stress in the marriage, some mistakes being made....though I'm pretty sure that's mostly just been hinted at and not said for sure and true from reliable narrators. 
> 
> I don't think it convolutes the back story too much. At least not in concept. Maybe some of the specific stories and details need to be clarified or ignored, but I don't think the basic idea bogs down the origin. Definitely ignore the idea that Dick's some semi-prophesied figure among the Owls, just say he was a candidate with potential (especially given his family history) and nothing more. Boil it all down to "Dick grew up in a circus surrounded by a family that loved him, but the circus had some dark secrets too. Dick's parents die when Zucco shakes down Haly for protection money, and Dick is taken in by Bruce. And hence Robin was born." 
> 
> I figure this is equivalent to fleshing out and developing Krypton. And the fact that Doomsday was engineered on Krypton, or that Lara nearly married Zod, or the clone wars, or Rao-ism, none of that really impacts the basic status quo unless the story specifically calls for it. It only matters when you want it to.


That's a good point. I think it works for Raptor. And when the Titans show introduced Clayton Williams. Fleshing out the circus was pretty much the premise for Dick's OGN.

But I don't see Dick's connection to the Owls treated as an integral part of his IP when all we have is proof of the opposite. That connection didn't matter one bit when the CoO appeared in the New52 inspired Cartoons. I guess Gotham Knights and the next Issue of The Adventures Continue will reveal whether Dick's connection to them is integral by now or not.

Imo, the problem with the CoO is that they aren't truly Dick's. Sure, Cobb is, but the Owls are connected to Bruce. They are old money families in Gotham, they pray to Barbartos, and they have their origin in Batman even if the Nightwing title featured Cobb prominently at the time.

----------


## HsssH

> next Issue of The Adventures Continue will reveal whether Dick's connection to them is integral by now or not


What is happening there? They are introducing CoO to animated continuity?

----------


## Avi

> What is happening there? They are introducing CoO to animated continuity?


Yep. The CoO appeared in Issue #1 of season two. Came out this month. And Dick is shown fighting Talon (Cobb?) on the cover of #2.

----------


## Rac7d*

> Yep. The CoO appeared in Issue #1 of season two. Came out this month. And Dick is shown fighting Talon (Cobb?) on the cover of #2.


 If we have them face off again in Gotham Knight I think we can call put him at the top of Dick’s rogue list

Cobb 
Blockbuster 
Lady Vic
Deathstroke

----------


## Restingvoice

> Dick still is a Grayson. Cobb isn’t even a major beat, but a relatively new retcon they also later introduced into his history. What’s more he was a peon, and wouldn't be anymore aware then John was. Cobb was one of many Talons they recruited through Haley’s. His designs hat doewhile dramatic are ultimately inconsequential. He didn’t pick Dick, and Dick wasn’t picked because of his genetics. But because of his prowess and the Courts connection to the circus. Cobb isn't part of the Court, but one of their slaves they use to carry out their whims.


Cobb's status in the Court is irrelevant. I was talking about him and only him personally wanting to use his Grayson descendants as a revenge tool (or whatever it was, I don't remember everything, but basically he wants them to side with him) so he asked them to be trained by the Circus. The story of what Cobb wants as a blood relation vs what Dick wants as his own person. A story that won't work if he's just a random kid from the Circus with no relation to him. 

That was the topic. Why Cobb having a blood relation to Dick is important is specifically for that story.

The Court just goes on using their own methods and goal. Them wanting Dick to be a Talon just happened to be aligned.

----------


## OpaqueGiraffe17

just gonna leave this here and bail, lol
E590C37D-87E9-4834-862D-60F3AE3A1EEB.jpg

----------


## Frontier

> just gonna leave this here and bail, lol
> E590C37D-87E9-4834-862D-60F3AE3A1EEB.jpg


I remember this version of Dick getting stuck on babysitting duty while talking with Kori on the phone and her mentioning a thong  :Stick Out Tongue: .

----------


## Drako

SPOILERS for issue 81:

So, while the last page didn't have much impact since it got spoiled, we don't have much information about Melinda other than she has a lot of dirty on her. So she might be plain the long con and faking it, but i don't belive that's the case.

The rest of the issue was good, Heartless is a enhanced human but not a great fighter, looks like he isn't much of a threat by himself. 
The part with the boats was good, but i wish we had seem people too instead of just boats to give more humanity to the scene. The names of the boats were kinda silly, but i didn't mind.

The reveal it self at the end isn't something that i wanted for the character, but i'm willing to see how is going to play out.

----------


## HsssH

I didn't like that Dick ended up getting knocked out second time. Sure, he needed to get his mask removed so that we could get to the reveal, but its not like Dick wasn't going to meet her anyway due to his plans for the city. Not a big deal, but I feel like overall story could have been constructed in a better way.

I have no idea how it actually works, but if Melinda's FBI file is redacted a lot, does it imply that she is an FBI informant?

----------


## Dzetoun

Okay, just throwing this out there, but it may be possible for Taylor to be serious about Melinda without undermining John Grayson or the Grayson marriage. We don’t have a key piece of information: Dick and Melinda’s relative ages. If Melinda is slightly older, which is perfectly possible given her extensive FBI file and successful career in local politics, then John may have been involved with her mother before he married, or perhaps even met, Mary. For all we know, it might also have been before Melinda’s mother married Zucco. 

A much greater plot problem is that Dick evidently didn’t know anything about Melinda until now. Council President is a very important local position and one you only come to after being in local politics for a while. Her name would have been in the newspaper and on TV and social media pretty regularly. It beggars the imagination that a former Bludhaven police officer and property owner would not have run across the name and perked up his ears. I would have found it more believable if he had said he had been aware of her but just figured Zucco was a common enough Italian name and never thought there was a connection

----------


## hairys

> Okay, just throwing this out there, but it may be possible for Taylor to be serious about Melinda without undermining John Grayson or the Grayson marriage. We don’t have a key piece of information: Dick and Melinda’s relative ages. If Melinda is slightly older, which is perfectly possible given her extensive FBI file and successful career in local politics, then John may have been involved with her mother before he married, or perhaps even met, Mary. For all we know, it might also have been before Melinda’s mother married Zucco. 
> 
> A much greater plot problem is that Dick evidently didn’t know anything about Melinda until now. Council President is a very important local position and one you only come to after being in local politics for a while. Her name would have been in the newspaper and on TV and social media pretty regularly. It beggars the imagination that a former Bludhaven police officer and property owner would not have run across the name and perked up his ears. I would have found it more believable if he had said he had been aware of her but just figured Zucco was a common enough Italian name and never thought there was a connection


I dunno, I would guess less than 1% of Americans know who their local Council members are.  I certainly don't know mine.  Dick's been busy superheroing and spycraft and other stuff, so it's not unbelievable to me that he doesn't know.

My nit for this issue would be that there's no way that mass of people on the pier could go from one end of it to the other in the timeframe of Dick telling Tim "Get the kids off the pier.  Get them --".  It was a confusing sequence.

----------


## Murrocko

Maaaaaann, this ending had two tropes I'm not a fan of. 1st being the hero easily getting KO'd and unmasked (And yeah I get they set it up with the whole concussion thing, but still), is there no security system on the suit for that, Oracle couldn't have remotely tasered Melinda or something? The 2nd of course being the long lost sister. I know the best course of action here is to wait and see how the story unfolds, but I'm already kind of annoyed that this is the direction we're seemingly going in as of right now. 

So not only is Dick connected to a secret society of bird fanatics with zombie ninja security via his great grandpa, but also maybe his dad wasn't really John Grayson, but really some super villain, also evil grandparents or something that assisted in brainwashing, to potentially now having a sister with ties to the man who killed his parents... Assumingly due to some sort jealous rage in Melinda not being his daughter or is it just going to be coincidence he murdered the man that had a secret kid with his 1st wife? 

I don't know, I get expanding on someone's history, but I really preferred back when Dick was just a victim to violence in Gotham and didn't have every other new character/story be a blast from from his past.

----------


## Restingvoice

I'm just laughing at the list of people Melinda Zucco connected to Dick now

----------


## Avi

Just stumbled upon Bookdepository's listing of the first volume by accident and hard agree, there is no leaping to see.

steppingintothelight.jpg

But, srsly, who wrote that as stepping instead of leaping?

----------


## Badou

The reveal was as awful as I was expecting. Long lost siblings/family members are some of the worst tropes in all of comics, and here it is no different. Every time they try and do stories like this they are generally terrible. I have no interest in seeing Dick have some sister, especially at the expense of throwing dirt on Dick's parents and their marriage. It isn't worth it to me. I don't think there is anything wrong with them having a happy simple marriage. Not everything needs to be so complicated. It's kind of sad that no one knows how to make interesting characters for Dick without trying to tear up his past. The Court of Owls, Raptor, and now this sister character. The part of the Court of Owls thing I didn't like was how it turned Dick's childhood into a nightmare where the circus wasn't what he thought it was, even though the Court added in some interesting things too, but now introducing this new sister who is the daughter of Dick's dad from some prior relationship, or him cheating on his wife, feels so needless. Regardless it makes Dick's dad look awful if he never told Dick about having a sibling. Then if the reason Tony Zucco killed Dick's parents was because of some lovers quarrel with Dick's dad that is going to be beyond fucking awful. 

Maybe Taylor will do something dumb like Dick's dad never knew he knocked up some woman, but then what is the point in having her even be related to the Graysons in the first place. Although what make this whole thing even worse is how convoluted it is. So Dick has some long lost sister which is already dumb and unwanted, but not only that she is also the apparent adopted daughter of Tony Zucco! The man who killed Dick's parents! So Dick's dad had some previous involvement with the woman that would marry Zucco for some reason. But wait, there is more! She is now also the mayor of Bludhaven and working with Blockbuster! It is one of the most forced and convoluted situations I've ever seen in comics. I get what Taylor is trying to do. Dick has zero real connection to Bludhaven so he created this dumb sister and jammed her into every aspect of Bludhaven he can to try and give Dick that personal connection to it, but it feels so incredibly forced. 

Hopefully it turns out to just be a fake-out and Melinda isn't really Dick's sister, or if she is she is quickly retconned or forgotten about like so many other sibling stories. Instead of trying to make Melinda into an interesting character first she is completely propped up on just being Dick's sister. There is nothing else to her character. It's the completely wrong way to go about introducing a character like this. Taylor could have taken his time to try and make us interested in her first, but he didn't and just used the drama of her being Dick's long lost sister to sell her to readers, which never works. 

Honestly, long lost sibling characters I find even worse than pointless love interests like Bea. At least with a Bea you knew she was pointless and would be forgotten about or sent to limbo as soon as the run was over. Both had zero actual character beyond their connection to Dick too, but at least her creation didn't ruin other characters or Dick's past. Now Melinda is going to be an anchor on this entire run dragging it down. Overall I just find the whole thing so annoying and a waste of Renondo's amazing art. 

Also I still find it annoying how incompetent Taylor writes Dick. It's been a constant theme for 4 issues now that Dick doesn't come across as a capable hero. He is constantly getting beaten up or being made to look like a fool. I get trying to make your hero more venerable to try and make them likeable, but I feel like Taylor isn't balancing it well. Dick gets a concussion from Heartless, who after 4 issues is a bland villain with no real interesting hook so far, and then gets beaten up and captured by Melinda's henchwoman. It's just constant and makes Dick look pretty pathetic. Then Dick who is supposed to be a master detective had no idea who Melinda is despite her being related to Tony Zucco and in a position to be mayor. You'd expect him to at least know some important details about the city he supposedly cares so much about.

----------


## Godlike13

Issue was a 10 out of 10 just because of Babs shirt LoL  :Cool:

----------


## Iclifton

> The reveal was as awful as I was expecting. Long lost siblings/family members are some of the worst tropes in all of comics, and here it is no different. Every time they try and do stories like this they are generally terrible. I have no interest in seeing Dick have some sister, especially at the expense of throwing dirt on Dick's parents and their marriage. It isn't worth it to me. I don't think there is anything wrong with them having a happy simple marriage. Not everything needs to be so complicated. It's kind of sad that no one knows how to make interesting characters for Dick without trying to tear up his past. The Court of Owls, Raptor, and now this sister character. The part of the Court of Owls thing I didn't like was how it turned Dick's childhood into a nightmare where the circus wasn't what he thought it was, even though the Court added in some interesting things too, but now introducing this new sister who is the daughter of Dick's dad from some prior relationship, or him cheating on his wife, feels so needless. Regardless it makes Dick's dad look awful if he never told Dick about having a sibling. Then if the reason Tony Zucco killed Dick's parents was because of some lovers quarrel with Dick's dad that is going to be beyond fucking awful. 
> 
> Maybe Taylor will do something dumb like Dick's dad never knew he knocked up some woman, but then what is the point in having her even be related to the Graysons in the first place. Although what make this whole thing even worse is how convoluted it is. So Dick has some long lost sister which is already dumb and unwanted, but not only that she is also the apparent adopted daughter of Tony Zucco! The man who killed Dick's parents! So Dick's dad had some previous involvement with the woman that would marry Zucco for some reason. But wait, there is more! She is now also the mayor of Bludhaven and working with Blockbuster! It is one of the most forced and convoluted situations I've ever seen in comics. I get what Taylor is trying to do. Dick has zero real connection to Bludhaven so he created this dumb sister and jammed her into every aspect of Bludhaven he can to try and give Dick that personal connection to it, but it feels so incredibly forced. 
> 
> Hopefully it turns out to just be a fake-out and Melinda isn't really Dick's sister, or if she is she is quickly retconned or forgotten about like so many other sibling stories. Instead of trying to make Melinda into an interesting character first she is completely propped up on just being Dick's sister. There is nothing else to her character. It's the completely wrong way to go about introducing a character like this. Taylor could have taken his time to try and make us interested in her first, but he didn't and just used the drama of her being Dick's long lost sister to sell her to readers, which never works. 
> 
> Honestly, long lost sibling characters I find even worse than pointless love interests like Bea. At least with a Bea you knew she was pointless and would be forgotten about or sent to limbo as soon as the run was over. Both had zero actual character beyond their connection to Dick too, but at least her creation didn't ruin other characters or Dick's past. Now Melinda is going to be an anchor on this entire run dragging it down. Overall I just find the whole thing so annoying and a waste of Renondo's amazing art. 
> 
> Also I still find it annoying how incompetent Taylor writes Dick. It's been a constant theme for 4 issues now that Dick doesn't come across as a capable hero. He is constantly getting beaten up or being made to look like a fool. I get trying to make your hero more venerable to try and make them likeable, but I feel like Taylor isn't balancing it well. Dick gets a concussion from Heartless, who after 4 issues is a bland villain with no real interesting hook so far, and then gets beaten up and captured by Melinda's henchwoman. It's just constant and makes Dick look pretty pathetic. Then Dick who is supposed to be a master detective had no idea who Melinda is despite her being related to Tony Zucco and in a position to be mayor. You'd expect him to at least know some important details about the city he supposedly cares so much about.


A bit dramatic. The reveal was only one page and no backstory was given. Literally one panel of her telling him she is his sister.

----------


## Iclifton

Liked the issue. Not the biggest fan of the second knock out but I thought Nightwing came off as pretty good in his fight against Heartless. Very obvious he had the edge until Heartless escaped. Speaking off Heartless, seems like a pretty unique villain, I am digging him so far. Liked that it was due to Dick`s quick thinking that the kids were saved. Illustrated what makes Dick special. So far Melinda seems interesting. Being connected to the Maroni family and having a large FBI file is a good start. Excited to see where this will go.

Big fan of introducing Dick Grayson specific characters that expand his world. Probably the first time I have been sold on Bludhaven since Dixon.

----------


## HsssH

> I dunno, I would guess less than 1% of Americans know who their local Council members are.  I certainly don't know mine.  Dick's been busy superheroing and spycraft and other stuff, so it's not unbelievable to me that he doesn't know.
> 
> My nit for this issue would be that there's no way that mass of people on the pier could go from one end of it to the other in the timeframe of Dick telling Tim "Get the kids off the pier.  Get them --".  It was a confusing sequence.


For me bigger issue is that Zucco has kids that Dick doesn't know about. You'd think that Batfamily would do an extensive research on people like Zucco and Melinda having a long list of documented (and now redacted) offences would be put her on a Batfamily's "watchlist".

Yes, I know that this is a common trope and many writers used it, but it just doesn't make sense to me considering how Batfamily operates.

----------


## Frontier

> Maaaaaann, this ending had two tropes I'm not a fan of. 1st being the hero easily getting KO'd and unmasked (And yeah I get they set it up with the whole concussion thing, but still), is there no security system on the suit for that, Oracle couldn't have remotely tasered Melinda or something? The 2nd of course being the long lost sister. I know the best course of action here is to wait and see how the story unfolds, but I'm already kind of annoyed that this is the direction we're seemingly going in as of right now.


These days it's hard for me to believe there aren't contingencies in the Bat-Family's mask so that they don't get removed without their permission.

Like certain media have shown Batman has contingencies in place so no one can take the cowl off in case he gets knocked out or is indisposed.

----------


## Blue22

Whelp. I already knew about the twist before the issue dropped and I wasn't a fan of it. And now that I've actually read the issue....I'm still not a big fan. Loved everything else (especially Barbara's shirt) but that ending...yikes. I'll chalk up Dick getting so easily knocked out to his previous head injury like the book was already implying. But that sister twist...man, I don't know how to feel about it.

And yeah, at this point, there should be some kind of failsafe in place so those masks don't come off easily.

----------


## Drako

> These days it's hard for me to believe there aren't contingencies in the Bat-Family's mask so that they don't get removed without their permission.
> 
> Like certain media have shown Batman has contingencies in place so no one can take the cowl off in case he gets knocked out or is indisposed.


I remember people trying and failing to take his mask off during Dixon's run, i just can't pinpoint when it was. Maybe was during that crossover with Birds of Prey, but i can be mistaken.

----------


## Dzetoun

> For me bigger issue is that Zucco has kids that Dick doesn't know about. You'd think that Batfamily would do an extensive research on people like Zucco and Melinda having a long list of documented (and now redacted) offences would be put her on a Batfamily's "watchlist".
> 
> Yes, I know that this is a common trope and many writers used it, but it just doesn't make sense to me considering how Batfamily operates.


That’s a fair point. I guess, though, just because the Bat Fam (that is Bruce) knows something doesn’t necessarily mean Dick does. I could see Bruce, and for that matter Alfred, taking the line that Zucco is in jail and there isn’t anything to be gained by encouraging Dick to continue thinking about him. Not so much withholding information as simply quietly filing it in the proper place and never bringing the subject up.

----------


## HsssH

Yeah, but then we move back to old "Batfamily is mad at Bruce for keeping secrets" plot point that nobody likes either.

----------


## K. Jones

Got to the end of the issue and just said "Huh."

Okay? I like tropes and it's not the trope itself that's pinging my "uh, right?" thoughts. It's just with a character as extensively covered as the 80 year old Dick Grayson, pulling this off is a massive uphill battle even for a Legendary Writer, let alone a Tom Taylor, who is capable and has been around a minute, but we'd even be giving a Grant Morrison or somebody grief for this (See: Damian existing, which took Legendary Writer levels of work to make anyone buy into and not everyone has). Barring that chance, there's immediate digression into the sort of "other two narrative possibilities", which are the "This is a lie" (Leading to A. Dick vehemently and correctly discredits it no matter how hard the character tries to verify, or B. Dick's gullible and OOC) or the alternate "This could be true" (In which case either A. The writer/editorial chicken the frick out and won't really confirm the validity or B. They try to sell it way too hard with no merit to the value of the addition.)

It immediately calls to mind Scott Snyder's Lincoln March (ergo, they can claim until the cows come home that he really is Bruce's brother but none of us care, because he's not, or they can chicken out on the confirmation (which they did, and never even utilized the Owl Eventual Link to the Dark Multiverse to give him a Real Origin)) as well as ... well, Scott Snyder's James Gordon Junior ... as well as, I'd say, well, Geoff Johns' Three Jokers (a story with ramifications so unacceptable that I optimistically read it thinking "oh man how is he going to pull this premise off?" and ended the whole thing thinking "Gosh that had pretty art ... Please never let Johns write another Batman thing.")

So yeah! There we are. A big dumb shock reveal that raises questions that are fairly impossible to answer. A "Oh actually Blofeld was your Foster Brother the whole time, Mister Bond!" capital-R Retcon but perhaps with emphasis on the -Con. 

Now that being said; could this be fun? Yes. Am I curious to see if he can pull it off, subvert expectations, play some of the tropes for kicks or like a fiddle, do something interesting with that cliffhanger beat, make lemonade? Yes, actually I am. Because the issue is otherwise fine. You know, first new villain scrap does the breakaway to do more whatever and build to Round Two, Tim and Babs make for great supporting roles, gorgeous art, steady hand at world-building, yadda yadda. The Trope Drop itself doesn't ruin the momentum or run for me on impact - it'll take "Mishandling" after the Trope Drop for that to happen. But this "COULD" go interesting. I don't know what the odds are. 90/10? But I feel like even a newer, less epic writer has to know those odds when they pitch something this Stupidly Bold and you'd hope an insane amount of homework has been done to try to pull it off, and that's the stuff I'm curious about now.

----------


## nightw1ng

> Issue was a 10 out of 10 just because of Babs shirt LoL


I definitely enjoyed that.  It got a literal LOL out of me, haha.

----------


## Rakiduam

So lame villian, no supporting characters of his own and an alrady used bat plot. Oh but just wait this COULD get good, eventually, maybe, improbably, but it could. But it's a slow burn, it's seding for future plots and did you see Babs' t shirt. Who cares if it's not fun to read right now?

In the meanwhile Dick gets knocked out and unmasked. Again.

----------


## Badou

> A bit dramatic. The reveal was only one page and no backstory was given. Literally one panel of her telling him she is his sister.


Eh, there was more to that. You have the forced Zucco family connection, her working for Blockbuster, her now being mayor of Bludhaven, her being Dick's dad's daughter, and then how awful the reveal was with Dick sneaking into her house to get beaten up. It was pretty poor all around. Very sloppily written.

----------


## Hypo

Nightwing #81 Second Printing Cover

----------


## Drako

> Nightwing #81 Second Printing Cover


You're quick.

Issue #81 sold out in the first day.

https://twitter.com/TomTaylorMade/st...93157343461377

----------


## Rac7d*

I like that trick with his stix didnt know they could do that

----------


## Godlike13

> I remember people trying and failing to take his mask off during Dixon's run, i just can't pinpoint when it was. Maybe was during that crossover with Birds of Prey, but i can be mistaken.


Two instances come to mind that I cant exactly place. One i think was the Nightwing issue with BoP, where they unmasked him and was like whos this. So they tried to run his prints. Another was where they tried to unmask him only to get shocked or something. Might have been even they were trying to unmask him and couldnt get it off so they tried to run his prints.

----------


## Rac7d*

> Two instances come to mind that I can’t exactly place. One i think was the Nightwing issue with BoP, where they unmasked him and was like who’s this. So they tried to run his prints. Another was where they tried to unmask him only to get shocked or something. Might have been even they were trying to unmask him and couldn’t get it off so they tried to run his prints.


Melinda is so dying this story arc. So I have no investment in her.

----------


## Drako

> *Melinda is so dying this story arc.* So I have no investment in her.


I doubt it.

The next writer may choose to ignore her, but i'm sure Taylor will make her a regular during his run in this book.

----------


## Iclifton

> Eh, there was more to that. You have the forced Zucco family connection, her working for Blockbuster, her now being mayor of Bludhaven, her being Dick's dad's daughter, and then how awful the reveal was with Dick sneaking into her house to get beaten up. It was pretty poor all around. Very sloppily written.


Because you did not like it does not make it sloppily written. Every element was written very intentionally, hence not sloppy. Her history and connections to Blockbuster, Bludhaven, Maroni and Zucco are what make her interesting. Not to mention there is still a ton of mystery. It presents a new challenge for Dick.

----------


## Iclifton

I honestly doubt she dies. I get the feeling she is in it for the long haul. Seems to me Taylor is trying to expand Dick`s world.

----------


## Lady Nightwing

Am I the only one who hated Babs shirt? I mean, it's a cute nod for fans reading it but in universe it's kind of ghastly. The poor fella was knocked out cold and came to, to find the woman he loves, wearing a shirt with a picture of his dad slapping the taste out of his mouth. That's messed up

Overall I liked the issue, Bruno Redondos art continues to be the highlight. Nice fight scene with Heartless, I also like that Dick has some lingering issues with his head wound. I'm lukewarm on the big twist. 

It does sort of feel that they're cramming in a lot of fan service to cover a slightly weak plot. I'm more invested with the panels of Dick chilling with Bitewing than those with the secret long lost sister.

----------


## Badou

> Because you did not like it does not make it sloppily written. Every element was written very intentionally, hence not sloppy. Her history and connections to Blockbuster, Bludhaven, Maroni and Zucco are what make her interesting. Not to mention there is still a ton of mystery. It presents a new challenge for Dick.


It makes her convoluted to me. It feels so forced when you create a character like this with so many connections out of nowhere to the main character, especially before even making her an interesting character on her own. A character solely propped up by their connections to another character does not mean they are interesting themselves, imo. Sonia in Black Mirror was a much better way to introduce a similar character who was Zucco's daughter. The only thing interesting about her was that she was his daughter, but her run in with Dick felt much more like a random occurrence and it posed a new challenge to Dick in how he would interact with the daughter of his parents' killer while trying to solve a mystery. You actually got to see Dick work as a detective and figure out where Sonia stands. You introduced a new character while also elevating Dick as a character. That's is good writing. 

Here with Melinda Dick just gets hit over the head with all her info and fails to uncover anything on his own, and when he attempts to do something he fails horribly. It makes Dick feel somewhat incompetent. It was just too much. Being Dick's sister from his dad, part of the Zucco family, working for Blockbuster, being mayor of Bludhaven, FBI connections, and even knowing Dick is Nightwing before capturing and unmasking him. It's so much. I don't care for these long lost sibling comic stories anyway, and I don't think there is any outcome where I'll care about this sister character in the slightest, but I don't really expect this character to last beyond this run anyway as well. So it feels like a waste messing more with Dick's past/family for a character I feel is unneeded/not worth it. If it turns out to all be a fake-out and she isn't his sister and the twist is done well then I'll praise it, but I don't have any expectations for that.

But here is the thing, we can have different opinions. Outside the amazing art I do not care for this run so far and I am frustrated such amazing art is being used on a story I don't think it is written well and is fairly weak, but you are free to think it is the best Nightwing run of all time. I've gone into detail about the things I personally dislike and explained why I think they are bad, but you can feel the complete opposite. Neither of us are "right" because they are our opinions.

----------


## Frontier

> Am I the only one who hated Babs shirt? I mean, it's a cute nod for fans reading it but in universe it's kind of ghastly. The poor fella was knocked out cold and came to, to find the woman he loves, wearing a shirt with a picture of his dad slapping the taste out of his mouth. That's messed up.


I guess it depends on if you view Dick as a masochist.

----------


## JackJustMetMartin

> Am I the only one who hated Babs shirt? I mean, it's a cute nod for fans reading it but in universe it's kind of ghastly. The poor fella was knocked out cold and came to, to find the woman he loves, wearing a shirt with a picture of his dad slapping the taste out of his mouth. That's messed up



I get feeling like this, but I honestly think it's purely intended as a little nod without any in universe implications. I wouldn't over analyze it.

----------


## Drako

*How Dick Grayson became Batman - Inside Battle of the Cowl with Tony S. Daniel and the DC editors at the time*

https://www.gamesradar.com/how-dick-...s-at-the-time/

----------


## Pohzee

> I guess it depends on if you view Dick as a masochist.


His fans certainly are!

----------


## Rac7d*

> I doubt it.
> 
> The next writer may choose to ignore her, but i'm sure Taylor will make her a regular during his run in this book.


When someone fine out the secret identity the way she did so quickly it dies with them…
So the flying Graysons death is now partially on John? Does that gives raptor a way back into nightwings story?

----------


## Drako

> When someone fine out the secret identity the way she did so quickly it dies with them


Like whom?




> So the flying Graysons death is now partially on John? Does that gives raptor a way back into nightwings story?


We should wait until we know the backstory to make this assumptions.

----------


## Rakiduam

> Because you did not like it does not make it sloppily written. Every element was written very intentionally, hence not sloppy. Her history and connections to Blockbuster, Bludhaven, Maroni and Zucco are what make her interesting. Not to mention there is still a ton of mystery. It presents a new challenge for Dick.


He is writing a incompetent Nightwing intentionally, lovely. It's not Taylor that is sloppy, is Dick. 




> When someone fine out the secret identity the way she did so quickly it dies with them…
> So the flying Graysons death is now partially on John? Does that gives raptor a way back into nightwings story?


Well, John isn't an inocent bystandard victim of randon violence anymore, that's for sure.

----------


## Iclifton

> It makes her convoluted to me. It feels so forced when you create a character like this with so many connections out of nowhere to the main character, especially before even making her an interesting character on her own. A character solely propped up by their connections to another character does not mean they are interesting themselves, imo. Sonia in Black Mirror was a much better way to introduce a similar character who was Zucco's daughter. The only thing interesting about her was that she was his daughter, but her run in with Dick felt much more like a random occurrence and it posed a new challenge to Dick in how he would interact with the daughter of his parents' killer while trying to solve a mystery. You actually got to see Dick work as a detective and figure out where Sonia stands. You introduced a new character while also elevating Dick as a character. That's is good writing. 
> 
> Here with Melinda Dick just gets hit over the head with all her info and fails to uncover anything on his own, and when he attempts to do something he fails horribly. It makes Dick feel somewhat incompetent. It was just too much. Being Dick's sister from his dad, part of the Zucco family, working for Blockbuster, being mayor of Bludhaven, FBI connections, and even knowing Dick is Nightwing before capturing and unmasking him. It's so much. I don't care for these long lost sibling comic stories anyway, and I don't think there is any outcome where I'll care about this sister character in the slightest, but I don't really expect this character to last beyond this run anyway as well. So it feels like a waste messing more with Dick's past/family for a character I feel is unneeded/not worth it. If it turns out to all be a fake-out and she isn't his sister and the twist is done well then I'll praise it, but I don't have any expectations for that.
> 
> But here is the thing, we can have different opinions. Outside the amazing art I do not care for this run so far and I am frustrated such amazing art is being used on a story I don't think it is written well and is fairly weak, but you are free to think it is the best Nightwing run of all time. I've gone into detail about the things I personally dislike and explained why I think they are bad, but you can feel the complete opposite. Neither of us are "right" because they are our opinions.


Okay, what Nightwing runs have you loved?

----------


## Badou

> *How Dick Grayson became Batman - Inside Battle of the Cowl with Tony S. Daniel and the DC editors at the time*
> 
> https://www.gamesradar.com/how-dick-...s-at-the-time/


Interesting read. Shame they didn't remember or want to say any of the names they were throwing around for Dick's new identity if Tim was going to be the new Nightwing after Bruce returned as Batman. I get their reasoning that it did feel like Dick "leveled up" from B to A level after being Batman for a while, so they didn't feel like he should go back to Nightwing. Makes me curious what the new names and costumes were like.

----------


## Drako

> Interesting read. Shame they didn't remember or want to say any of the names they were throwing around for Dick's new identity if Tim was going to be the new Nightwing after Bruce returned as Batman. I get their reasoning that it did feel like Dick "leveled up" from B to A level after being Batman for a while, so they didn't feel like he should go back to Nightwing. Makes me curious what the new names and costumes were like.


I'm glad they didn't change his name. Especially now, with him appearing more and more in other medias. We could have the same problem Tim is having now.

----------


## Iclifton

> He is writing a incompetent Nightwing intentionally, lovely. It's not Taylor that is sloppy, is Dick. 
> 
> 
> 
> Well, John isn't an inocent bystandard victim of randon violence anymore, that's for sure.


Nightwing did not come off as incompetent at all. Successfully saved everyone through quick thinking and had the edge on Heartless, an enhanced. Only lost consciousness due to severe head trauma. Seemed pretty competent to me.  When did characters have to be win at everything to be considered good? Who cares, he got knocked out at the end due to having suffered a concussion from a super strength individual after having recently been shot in the head. 

John sleeping with another woman does not mean he was any less a victim of murder. If she is older he may not have even been married at the time.

----------


## hairys

> Am I the only one who hated Babs shirt? I mean, it's a cute nod for fans reading it but in universe it's kind of ghastly. The poor fella was knocked out cold and came to, *to find the woman he loves, wearing a shirt with a picture of his dad slapping the taste out of his mouth*. That's messed up


Maybe stop banging Kory at the Academy.

----------


## Iclifton

At this point are these two stories (Taylor Nightwing/Titans Academy) even really cannon to each other? Feels like two completely different characters. Super weird.

----------


## RedQueen

> Maybe stop banging Kory at the Academy.


lolllll.


Also, the slap is pretty much a meme at the moment. I've seen quite a few memes be turned into to Tshirts. It felt more like a shout to the audience then anything to do with Dick.

----------


## AmiMizuno

At this point what's the point of being in lost siblings. It's been done to death and none of them stay long. If anything I hope she is lying to him. Dick already about him. What does this add to him

----------


## Rac7d*

> At this point are these two stories (Taylor Nightwing/Titans Academy) even really cannon to each other? Feels like two completely different characters. Super weird.


He’s not appearing in titans academy enough for anything to happen with him and kory

----------


## Badou

> Okay, what Nightwing runs have you loved?


I think Seeley's run was the best probably overall, even if I had some issues with it, but many Nightwing runs are hampered because of Bludhaven which I don't enjoy for reasons I've stated many times before. No one here wants me to repeat it probably, haha. I appreciate Dixon's run because it saved the character from the mess the New Titans series had turned into. It established him as a solo character and probably saved the character from maybe even worse fates. I'll always give credit to Dixon for that. At the time I enjoyed it, but I never felt like it was a run that defined the character. I felt like it told a decent story about putting the character in a new environment, but now basically every Nightwing writer tries to copy it which I find frustrating and has soured me more on Dixon's run than I originally felt, which maybe isn't fair, but my frustration grows more each time someone tries to use Bludhaven too.

I liked Tomasi's run because I always felt like Tomasi had a good feel for the character. It wasn't amazing but still okay, and I also thought Humphries' short run was good. In his one arc I think he did some interesting work. Higgins' run is frustrating. He got screwed over by so many crossovers and by the New 52 being such a mess, so his run never seemed to click. The whole Court of Owls story could have been a great Dick Grayson story, but the story was mostly in service of Bruce in the end (Snyder was the creator so I can't blame it for being Bruce focused of course) and then Higgins' run felt very depressing as it was just making Dick's life constantly miserable, which was apparently what DC wanted from their books at that time. But I always felt bad for Higgins as he is the one Nightwing writer that I think was truly genuine when he said Nightwing/Dick Grayson is his favorite character. Every time another Nightwing creator has said that I have never believed them, but Higgins I think was telling the truth.

The Wolfman and Devin Grayson era were weird and all over the place and I still haven't read everything from then as that era kind of made me fall out of DC comics. It was kind of a mess. Then you have the Jurgens, Percy, and Lobdell era that was a disaster. Maybe if Percy was allowed to tell his full story it might have turned into something, but he had a rough start and then it all imploded with the Ric Grayson stuff. I didn't really enjoy any of it. Overall I think Taylor's current run is probably mid tier but the art is so amazing that it is really carrying the series for me. "Weak" is the best word to describe his story so far as the only parts that I enjoy are the small moments between him and Babs, the lighthearted banter, and the clever ways they are using the escrima sticks. Turning them into all purpose multitools is maybe the only thing from this run that I hopes carries over into future runs, lol.  

But I think overall I'm much more of a Dick Grayson fan than a Nightwing fan. So I enjoyed the Grayson series the most out of any of Dick's solo books. It highlights so many of the aspects I liked and allowed the whole world to be his setting. I get that some didn't like that and prefer him anchored to a Bludhaven though. Then you have stories like Black Mirror, Batman & Robin, Robin and Batgirl Year One, the earlier Wolfman and Perez stories especially the Who is Donna Troy one, and some of the classic Dick and Bruce stuff from the 70s and before that I also really love. I said a lot more than you probably asked for, but that is kind of where I stand on most Nightwing runs.

----------


## Badou

> I'm glad they didn't change his name. Especially now, with him appearing more and more in other medias. We could have the same problem Tim is having now.


Yeah, the Tim situation probably showed that Dick going back to Nightwing was the best move. I just wonder what those other names would have been. Owlman? Something new? No idea. 




> Maybe stop banging Kory at the Academy.


To be fair he isn't sleeping with Babs apparently, right? He slept on the couch when she was staying over at his place in Bludhaven. She keeps turning him down outside that whole end of the world situation in Death Metal, lol.

----------


## Iclifton

> At this point what's the point of being in lost siblings. It's been done to death and none of them stay long. If anything I hope she is lying to him. Dick already about him. What does this add to him


Usually I’d agree as it’s gimmicky, but I feel in this case it actually poses a genuine philosophical challenge to the main character and explores him in a new way. Maybe I’ll be proven wrong but so far this seems to have much more thought behind it then Lincoln March and Teresa Parker

----------


## Rakiduam

> Nightwing did not come off as incompetent at all. Successfully saved everyone through quick thinking and had the edge on Heartless, an enhanced. Only lost consciousness due to severe head trauma. Seemed pretty competent to me.  When did characters have to be win at everything to be considered good? Who cares, he got knocked out at the end due to having suffered a concussion from a super strength individual after having recently been shot in the head. 
> 
> John sleeping with another woman does not mean he was any less a victim of murder. If she is older he may not have even been married at the time.


They should win from time to time. Barbara, some kids, this now .... he is always less good. Oh but Babs is smater, the kids are better and now Taylor original character is super hyper connected, and already has him on disadvantage. 


Did I say John wasn't a victim of murder? I said it wasn't random. Or you think Zucco casually killed the father of his....supposed daughter?...This is so freaking convoluted.

----------


## Iclifton

> They should win from time to time. Barbara, some kids, this now .... he is always less good. Oh but Babs is smater, the kids are better and now Taylor original character is super hyper connected, and already has him on disadvantage. 
> 
> 
> Did I say John wasn't a victim of murder? I said it wasn't random. Or you think Zucco casually killed the father of his....supposed daughter?...This is so freaking convoluted.


But he did win. He was winning the fight and then thanks to him all the kids were saved. Barbara won because she flipped him? Barbara may have a different skill set but she is not written as smarter. He has been making a positive impact and saving people all run. Not to mention its very obvious that when Tim and Barbara are in the room Dick comes off as the leader. It seems all the years of bad Nightwings runs have made Grayson fans insecure and literally complain anytime he isnt portrayed as dominant in every way. These were the same complaints Helena received at the beginning Grayson and that was prob the best run the character has had.

----------


## Dzetoun

> At this point are these two stories (Taylor Nightwing/Titans Academy) even really cannon to each other? Feels like two completely different characters. Super weird.


The separation between Dicks solo book and the Titans has always been pretty strong, as has the separation between Batman of Gotham and Batman of the Justice League. I grant, though, that the Kori/Babs situation makes it especially stark at the moment.

----------


## OWL45

I’m glad the book is selling well. The reveal at the end was interesting and has potential. I’m a big fan of the COO also so in favor of adding wrinkles to Dick’s background. What I don’t like about this run so far is how he seems incompetent and unable to function on his own at various times over the past few issues. We are also back to seeing Nightwing getting beat every issue and made to look like a fool. As far as his depiction as a competent character who is highly trained both physically and mentally I prefer Gotham: Future State. He is a leader and also tactical and strategic. Taylor writes him like he is a buffoon so far.

----------


## HsssH

This is what, third sell out? For all the complaints it does looks like the run is working commercially. We don't get good sales data anymore, but looking at May charts it looks like #80 was ranked 38 in unit sales overall and 11 for DC right after some big Batman books and new releases like Future State: Gotham and Wonder Girl. Suppose this one did even better. Are we living in a world where Nightwing might becomes DC's top 5 ongoing?

I guess it is another example of me not getting what people like about Batman and related characters. I thought that Snyder's and Tynion's runs were garbage, but they sold (and are still selling in Tynion's case) great.




> Did I say John wasn't a victim of murder? I said it wasn't random. Or you think Zucco casually killed the father of his....supposed daughter?...This is so freaking convoluted.


Yeah, I think it kinda has to be the reason (or at least one of the reasons) because otherwise it gets more complicated than it has to be. On the other hand I guess Zucco could be unaware of this, but then its just a bunch of weird coincidences.

----------


## Lal

There's also this sales table - https://icv2.com/articles/markets/vi...omics-may-2021

It also shows that Nightwing is selling really well (better than justice league, detective comics, superman, flash, green lantern, wonder woman. basically better than any other DC title but Batman's titles, Joker, and new releases).

----------


## Badou

> Did I say John wasn't a victim of murder? I said it wasn't random. Or you think Zucco casually killed the father of his....supposed daughter?...This is so freaking convoluted.


Batman fans would be irate if they changed Bruce's past where instead of Joe Chill killing the Waynes by chance Joe Chill instead killed them because Thomas Wayne knocked up Joe's wife in the past and then his wife passed off the kid as Joe's for years. It fundamentally changes their murder from being a random incident of crime to something else, and is also really dumb, right? This whole baby daddy plot here would be in the same vein as that. Sure, we don't know how this will play out in the end and this is speculation based on the setup, though I think most are praying for it to be a fake-out, but it reeks of a writer trying to spice up deaths by building "interesting" connections no one ever asked for.

----------


## Avi

> Im glad the book is selling well. The reveal at the end was interesting and has potential. Im a big fan of the COO also so in favor of adding wrinkles to Dicks background. What I dont like about this run so far is how he seems incompetent and unable to function on his own at various times over the past few issues. We are also back to seeing Nightwing getting beat every issue and made to look like a fool. As far as his depiction as a competent character who is highly trained both physically and mentally I prefer Gotham: Future State. He is a leader and also tactical and strategic. Taylor writes him like he is a buffoon so far.


That's how I see it as well. Especially the last part.

I hope Andrew Constant gets to write a Nightwing centric Future State: Gotham arc. That he was mentioned as one of the ships, is hopefully a good omen.

----------


## HsssH

Finished reading that interview about Battle for the Cowl and found it rather funny how everyone claims to be big fans of Tim. Goes back to that story about Tim fans in conventions that was mentioned here some pages ago.

----------


## Drako

> I’m glad the book is selling well. The reveal at the end was interesting and has potential. I’m a big fan of the COO also so in favor of adding wrinkles to Dick’s background. What I don’t like about this run so far is how he seems incompetent and unable to function on his own at various times over the past few issues. We are also back to seeing Nightwing getting beat every issue and made to look like a fool. As far as his depiction as a competent character who is highly trained both physically and mentally I prefer Gotham: Future State. He is a leader and also tactical and strategic. Taylor writes him like he is a buffoon so far.


He got beat in this issue. That's the first time.

----------


## Godlike13

Taylor is definitely going for lovable and sympathetic with his Nightwing. The hero you would want to hang with vs over competent. I think my preference is somewhere more in the middle, but I think they’re will be an eventual culmination.

----------


## Iclifton

> They should win from time to time. Barbara, some kids, this now .... he is always less good. Oh but Babs is smater, the kids are better and now Taylor original character is super hyper connected, and already has him on disadvantage. 
> 
> 
> Did I say John wasn't a victim of murder? I said it wasn't random. Or you think Zucco casually killed the father of his....supposed daughter?...This is so freaking convoluted.


Okay well why does the murder need to be random. Mob violence still lead to the death of Dicks parents. It still has he same impact.

----------


## Badou

> He got beat in this issue. That's the first time.


It was way worse in this new issue, but he has had poor showings in the first three issues too. The first issue of him getting caught and flipped by Babs while trying to sneak into his own apartment unnoticed when he had his guard up. Then in the second issue he gets his wallet stolen. The third issue was probably the lightest, but you had him continued to be made fun of by others for getting his wallet stolen and then he goes into some soliloquy about how amazing Tim is which felt a bit awkward, but it really all cumulated in the fourth issue with him getting concussed by Heartless, he failed again sneaking into an apartment by making dumb decisions and then gets beaten up by Melinda's henchwoman, and then get gets captured and unmasked by Melinda. He also has failed to do any actual detective work and the first time he tries he fails miserably. So far everything in the story has been explained to him rather than him figuring anything out on his own. He just doesn't come across as very capable. 

But I get it. Taylor wants to show him as being more of an every man and more vulnerable to make him seem more likeable, but I don't think he has balanced it well at all. Dick comes across more bumbling or incompetent than as someone that has been doing this for 15 to 20 years in canon.

----------


## Badou

> Okay well why does the murder need to be random. Mob violence still lead to the death of Dicks parents. It still has he same impact.


Their deaths are supposed to mirror the Waynes' deaths. It is a fundamental link that bonds both Dick and Bruce in that they each witnessed their parents die in a random act of violent crime. It is their main motivation to act as heroes. Changing it to where Zucco has some past connection with John Grayson maybe because of some lovers quarrel/baby daddy drama completely rewrites it to not being a random act of violence anymore and might be a personal attack. It is a very big change that is completely unneeded.

----------


## Drako

> It was way worse in this new issue, but he has had poor showings in the first three issues too. The first issue of him getting caught and flipped by Babs while trying to sneak into his own apartment unnoticed when he had his guard up. Then in the second issue he gets his wallet stolen. The third issue was probably the lightest, but you had him continued to be made fun of by others for getting his wallet stolen and then he goes into some soliloquy about how amazing Tim is which felt a bit awkward, but it really all cumulated in the fourth issue with him getting concussed by Heartless, he failed again sneaking into an apartment by making dumb decisions and then gets beaten up by Melinda's henchwoman, and then get gets captured and unmasked by Melinda. He also has failed to do any actual detective work and the first time he tries he fails miserably. So far everything in the story has been explained to him rather than him figuring anything out on his own. He just doesn't come across as very capable. 
> 
> But I get it. Taylor wants to show him as being more of an every man and more vulnerable to make him seem more likeable, but I don't think he has balanced it well at all. Dick comes across more bumbling or incompetent than as someone that has been doing this for 15 to 20 years in canon.


Barbara is a Batperson, is not a big deal that she surprised him. Yeah, he got robbed, he wasn't pay attention while serving food to people in the streets.

He had ONE line about Tim being a good Robin. And his family were messing with him in a playfull manner about him getting robbed, thats normal among friends and family.

And in the last issue, he got a concussion and still had the upper hand on Heartless until he cheated and run away.

----------


## Avi

> Barbara is a Batperson, is not a big deal that she surprised him. Yeah, he got robbed, he wasn't pay attention while serving food to people in the streets.
> 
> He had ONE line about Tim being a good Robin. And his family were messing with him in a playfull manner about him getting robbed, thats normal among friends and family.
> 
> And in the last issue, he got a concussion and still had the upper hand on Heartless until he cheated and run away.


It's a big deal considering how she did it. Geared up and alerted Nightwing not even able to handle in civvies Barbara. It wasn't some surprise attack Dick didn't expect. He knew there was an intruder in his home. 

Then she gets to crap on his security system just to hit the point home how incompetent Dick is, but I guess that can now all conveniently be pushed to the side because Dick is suddenly still suffering from his past bullet-through-the-head trauma that played no rule in his skillset in the past 2+ years.

Dick gets his wallet stolen because equally as conveniently the normal citizens of Blüdhaven are poor innocent angels now, which makes Dick leave his wallet on the counter as any sensible human would. Or maybe he is so proud of himself for throwing a pizza party, that he forgets about the wallet. Just normal Dick Grayson things.
Plus the wallet was one whole mcguffin for like two Issues, so Dick didn't have to show any detective skills he might or might not have under Taylor.

Best Robin, whatever. It's dumb but par for the course. And I guess we have a batchat now. The important stuff.

Heartless was ok. Expected considering he's a new villain but Badou detailed what happened afterward well enough. That's not Nightwing planning. Considering how often Dick has been involved with Zucco he shouldn't even be that emotional and, heck, why are Barbara and he talking while he breaks in anyway. For a told you so moment? Yeah, if Tim and Babs didn't want Dick to leave maybe they should have held the Melinda information back.

When Taylor wrote "Dick is humble" he seems to have mistaken that for the narrative has to humble Dick every Issue.

----------


## Drako

> It's a big deal considering how she did it. Geared up and alerted Nightwing not even able to handle in civvies Barbara. It wasn't some surprise attack Dick didn't expect. He knew there was an intruder in his home. 
> 
> Then she gets to crap on his security system just to hit the point home how incompetent Dick is, but I guess that can now all conveniently be pushed to the side because Dick is suddenly still suffering from his past bullet-through-the-head trauma that played no rule in his skillset in the past 2+ years.
> 
> Dick gets his wallet stolen because equally as conveniently the normal citizens of Blüdhaven are poor innocent angels now, which makes Dick leave his wallet on the counter as any sensible human would. Or maybe he is so proud of himself for throwing a pizza party, that he forgets about the wallet. Just normal Dick Grayson things.
> Plus the wallet was one whole mcguffin for like two Issues, so Dick didn't have to show any detective skills he might or might not have under Taylor.
> 
> Best Robin, whatever. It's dumb but par for the course. And I guess we have a batchat now. The important stuff.
> 
> ...


Interesting that people like Tim Seeley's run when he basically did the same thing.

First issue: Dick got beat into the ground by Raptor. 

Second issue: In a mission given by the Owls, one of the daughters of Kobra suprised him and Raptor had to save him from being attacked from behind. Mind you, he was in a mission, in total alert. Oh, and Raptor said "That's why Batman has a new Robin every year."

Thrid issue: Barbara goes after and sneak behind them, Dick didn't notice her but Raptor did. 

Forth issue: Got saved by Raptor AGAIN and then revealed that Raptor was using him all along.

In the end, he defeated Raptor in a great and satisfying way. He'll defeat Heartless and go out on top in the end here as well.

----------


## Restingvoice

> Interesting that people like Tim Seeley's run when he basically did the same thing.
> 
> First issue: Dick got beat into the ground by Raptor. 
> 
> Second issue: In a mission given by the Owls, one of the daughters of Kobra suprised him and Raptor had to save him from being attacked from behind. Mind you, he was in a mission, in total alert. Oh, and Raptor said "That's why Batman has a new Robin every year."
> 
> Thrid issue: Barbara goes after and sneak behind them, Dick didn't notice her but Raptor did.


Oh people here did protest about those too.
People like Seeley's run here, but that doesn't mean it doesn't have anything to dislike. One of the problem is his Dick is too trusting, or his power level scales depending on who he's facing or how Seeley wants the story goes, getting beaten up by Raptor and a new nobody villain like Mr. Nice, getting turned into a Monster during a crossover...

----------


## Badou

The Heartless thing was the least annoying part I think. It's a new villain and I get wanting to build them up. That is very standard. It is the other stuff that makes Dick feel a bit more incompetent that annoyed me. Avi even mentioned things in their post that I forgot, like Babs mocking his security system. Like I said, I get it is being played for laughs some, but it feels unbalanced so far. I wonder if Dick failing to enter buildings undetected will be some running theme/gag now. Things like that, getting captured and unmasked so easily, and the lack of any real detective work while getting everything explained to him bothers me more. Probably doesn't help that the plot is moving incredibly slow too where these things stand out more maybe. 

But Drako is right that Seeley's Nightwing run it had Dick getting upstaged too. I remember posting about that as well at the time, but that first arc was only 4 issues and moved fast. We were getting two issues a month as well. There was even a part in issue #5, or somewhere in that Monster crossover written by Orlando, where Batwoman talked down to Dick which felt ridiculous given Dick had way more experience than her. 

That first arc was a bit weird overall in how Seeley was told to use the Owls but I don't think he really wanted to. So that first arc was kind of used to have Raptor kill the Parliament of Owls and was this awkward transition between the Grayson series and being told to move the character to Bludhaven. While I have some issues with Raptor at least he was written like a smug asshole and he felt like he had some character to him. Taylor is missing that kind of charm. There are times where I actually like how Taylor writes Dick. Like the cop scene with him and Babs last issue and other small moments like that. It's the other stuff that feels a lot weaker and is dragging the series down, imo.

Seeley was also coming off the Grayson run so I trusted him a lot more. I don't trust Taylor the same way. Even early on in Grayson they had Dick getting upstaged a little too, but Dick also had more strong moments as well showing his abilities despite being throw in into a completely foreign situation, and also showed him being more lighthearted which was a breath of fresh air coming off the New 52 Nightwing run. Plus Grayson was throwing all these crazy things at the reader (whales with robot legs!), and then Midnighter is a character with some standing as being very strong. I remember Midnighter fans being upset that Dick could even stand up to him. So it is a bit different when the opponent is an established character. Then it all turned with Grayson #5 (written by King I think) and was great in how it showed Dick "defeating" both Midnighter and even Helena by outlasting them in the desert by sheer will. It was such a good way to have him defeat someone far stronger without him even throwing a punch. It completely sold me on the Grayson series. If Taylor can do something half that good then maybe I'd be less critical, but I dunno.

----------


## Godlike13

Untouchable characters aren’t sustainable. You want your hero to be competent, but not so much that there’s no challenge cause they are inherently just so awesome. There needs to be a balance otherwise there’s no story. There was an arc with Seeley and Raptor. He created a challenge for his hero to work towards overcoming. Raptor challenged Dick’s character not just physically but conceptually. But through that challenge readers got to experience a journey of Nightwing earning   the victory. 
That isn’t the same thing as jobbing, or undermining ones lead just for sake of undermining them with no redemption or narrative goal in mind.

The Untouchable arc I think demonstrates when this becomes an issue. It had Dick fall into the same pitfall over and over with out Dick ever really learning from those defeats. It took another’s random interference to change anything, leaving Dick with no real progression or line of development from the encounters.

I will say this about Heartless, and even Melina. I don’t think Taylor is doing the best job of showing them as threats. They have been made to be threats because of Dick’s hubris and recklessness more then anything they are actually doing.

----------


## Drako

The time for him to shine in this arc and save the day will come, but Taylor is setting things up. Next issue is focused on detective work, he will find the truth behind Melinda's story, something that Barbara could do with her tech skills.

I understand that some people aren't behind the plot or the writer yet, i just think they're a little nitpick in some parts. Seeley did the same things and in the end his run was great. 

I didn't want Dick to have a lost sister, i still don't, but i'll just wait to see how everything will turn out. I don't have a allegiance to Tom Taylor, i'm going to call him out on things i don't like.

----------


## Rac7d*

I still can’t get to the store early enough to grab a copy at my local store, and on my second trip I snag the last copy

----------


## Rakiduam

> The time for him to shine in this arc and save the day will come, but Taylor is setting things up. Next issue is focused on detective work, he will find the truth behind Melinda's story, something that Barbara could do with her tech skills.
> 
> I understand that some people aren't behind the plot or the writer yet, i just think they're a little nitpick in some parts. Seeley did the same things and in the end his run was great. 
> 
> I didn't want Dick to have a lost sister, i still don't, but i'll just wait to see how everything will turn out. I don't have a allegiance to Tom Taylor, i'm going to call him out on things i don't like.


See? that's a problem to me, I have no interes in Barbara using her tech skills I want Dick to do it, the guy doesn't has to be a genius haker but he should be self reliant, but Barbara is there basically hindering any progress Dick can do to be better.

The challenge should be in the antagonist not in the incompetence of the hero.

----------


## Drako

> See? that's a problem to me, I have no interes in Barbara using her tech skills I want Dick to do it, the guy doesn't has to be a genius haker but he should be self reliant, but Barbara is there basically hindering any progress Dick can do to be better.
> 
> The challenge should be in the antagonist not in the incompetence of the hero.


She is doing the same thing in basically all the bat books, to me is not a big deal. Everyone is going to her for information again nowadays.

----------


## Drako

Ok, since we still have to wait a month until the next issue, why don't we share some favorite moments of the character? Like Grayson #5, that is in the top 10 of the greatest books with him.

One of my favorites issues of Nightwing ever is issue #19 of Dixon's run. Takes place during the Cataclysm and it's just Dick saving people trapped in Gotham. I absolutely love the part where he saves the kid and his mom. After that he just get up and keep saving more people.

----------


## AmiMizuno

> She is doing the same thing in basically all the bat books, to me is not a big deal. Everyone is going to her for information again nowadays.


The issue is Dick has been shown to have good tech skills. He was able to hack into JL systems. He isn't suppose to be reckless after the long Ric arc. People don't want to see him look like he always weak in one area. Especially with the Titans he should have gain more tech skills. He wouldn't be on the same level has Babs.

I don't hate Babs in this. I hope things aren't going he can't do tech stuff at all again.I'm wondering if he was able to hack into JL systems in one storyline. How good should he tech skills be? I do think he should be slow and not has fast. Still able to get the job done but not in the same speed has Babs or Tim.

----------


## Rakiduam

> She is doing the same thing in basically all the bat books, to me is not a big deal. Everyone is going to her for information again nowadays.


Funny enough I don't think anyone is going to belibe Batman can't do his own haking, unlike Nightwing.

----------


## AmiMizuno

I want Dick to be able to not always need help. He has many ways of getting info with Babs

https://www.cbr.com/nightwing-bludha...r-than-gotham/

What do you guys think about this ?

----------


## Rac7d*

> See? that's a problem to me, I have no interes in Barbara using her tech skills I want Dick to do it, the guy doesn't has to be a genius haker but he should be self reliant, but Barbara is there basically hindering any progress Dick can do to be better.
> 
> The challenge should be in the antagonist not in the incompetence of the hero.


I don’t see why having help is being seen as weakness. It’s that he can’t we know he can manage on his own if he needs too. But he’s older now and knows it’s better to have some help and backup.

----------


## AmiMizuno

Not saying he can't have help but the issue is what they choice to have him being weak in. And another is the fact it's only the Batfam that he asked for help not the expanse other heroes he knows like the Titans. They have often weaken Dick for plot reasons for others around him. Babs is in many times has shown to be babying him. That's also a issue. There is a place that needs to be done. I don't mind her taking care when he was hurt or just helping if he is busy with other things. But due to how long he has been doing hero work. He is cocky but isn't in the same why Jason or Damian is. So I don't get why he would underestimate heartless. He generally treats many of the villains in Bludhaven seriously.


I wouldn't mind if something like Dick was way too busy with Heartless, the new mayor and the kids to do the tech work and other things. Which makes sense why Babs is here.

----------


## Badou

I don't think anyone is asking for Dick to be untouchable or infallible, but the balance feels off at the moment. I know I am biased since I'm not enjoying the story, but it feels uneven. 

I get that the whole harbor scene with the ships was supposed to counter balance it some and show how resourceful Dick is, but I don't think it really worked well enough. You have the smaller things, like Babs flipping him, getting his wallet stolen, and Dick forgetting Babs can track him because of their communication device, that on their own are fine and can be funny moments but after a while it adds up. It is like death by a thousand cuts kind of thing, but then when you combine it with a major thing like Dick failing to sneak into a building, gets pushed around by some henchwoman while Melinda knocked him out with a bat, gets captured and tied to a chair, and also unmasked in once sequence it comes across really badly. I get Taylor's excuse was the concussion thing and Dick's poor decision making, and Melinda already knew his identity anyway, but I feel like you could have changed that scene around to make Dick seem less foolish. 

Taylor probably worked backwards and wanted Melinda to do the awful sister reveal face to face. So he needed Dick to have his masked removed and then worked from there to have him get knocked out and captured to unmask him. I'm obviously never going to like the sister plot, but I feel like the reveal set up could have been a lot better. Next issue I wonder if they will do the whole standard DNA test scene where Babs or someone shows the DNA results to prove they are siblings and then we get scenes of Dick acting dumb or something, lol. There is obviously going to be some twist still, but I wonder if it will be something like Melinda is Heartless or even John Grayson is Heartless since Taylor is bringing up his name.

----------


## Rac7d*

> Like whom?


Writers put themselves in a corner when certain characters learn secret identities.
Bad guys like Blockbuster come to mind
The court of owls grandmaster- actually the whole court in the film

Brief romantic partner Cheyenne Fremont never seen again after the his New York arc
Raya vestri - Killed by joker
I dont remember if Sonia found out exactly




If you discover one of the bats identities, you either join the team, go away forever or die.

----------


## AmiMizuno

And with Dick, we have the fact no girl will be seen again. Dick becoming a Cliche after Cliche.

----------


## HsssH

I think the main difference between Seeley's Raptor and what we have here is that before Seeley's Nightwing run we got Grayson. We were, for the most part, in upward swing so we were more willing to look past certain things. Now we are coming from Ric and we are a bit more suspicious.

It's not that I want Nightwing to be perfect or something like that, I just want him to finally get some big wins.

----------


## Avi

> Interesting that people like Tim Seeley's run when he basically did the same thing.
> 
> First issue: Dick got beat into the ground by Raptor. 
> 
> Second issue: In a mission given by the Owls, one of the daughters of Kobra suprised him and Raptor had to save him from being attacked from behind. Mind you, he was in a mission, in total alert. Oh, and Raptor said "That's why Batman has a new Robin every year."
> 
> Thrid issue: Barbara goes after and sneak behind them, Dick didn't notice her but Raptor did. 
> 
> Forth issue: Got saved by Raptor AGAIN and then revealed that Raptor was using him all along.
> ...


Heartless isnt the problem. He is just the icing on the cake. I feel much the same way as Badou: It's a death by a thousand cuts. 

Seeley had already proven himself. He had the benefit of the doubt. As both Badou and HsssH have already mentioned.

Tbh, what I remember most strongly about Seeleys first arc isn't positive. Because it's the cover of Nightwing #2. Dick had been shown bleeding, with bones broken, and in pain for way too many covers since the N52 had started. Thats something I appreciate about Redondos covers (and Janins at the time).

But I just went back to read the first four Issues, and I dont see more than rudimentary similarities between Taylor and Seeley.

First Issue: Raptor was set up from the first page as a threat. Readers were told what Suyolak can do. Raptor stole from the Owls and because he was seen as useful, he was hired by the Owls. He wasnt a newbie that had previously only attacked civilians. Heartless is exactly that newbie as Dick points out. Then the Issue went out of its way to tell the reader that Dick was distracted because of interpersonal relationships before Raptor ever attacked, with Heartless we were told Dick was still recovering after their fight. Even though that hadnt mattered in any of the fights before. I didnt like Raptor beating Dick up, but he was set up a lot better than Heartless. 

Second Issue: Dick wasnt fully alert. He checked the woman and concluded that she was dead. Ergo, no danger. The daughter of Kobra blasted out of the womans stomach, while Dick was about to investigate where the music was coming from. He had already crouched down to open the hatch. Raptor was stabbed with a knife for his effort. Before all that Dick saved Raptor from a son of Kobra.

Third Issue: There is a difference between Nightwing #3 and Nightwing #78. If you cant see that, well have to agree to disagree.

nw3nw78.jpg Imgur link to enhance.

Fourth Issue: Raptor could only save Dick because Dick was the only one fighting and the second Raptor saved Dick, he almost died himself. I dont think Raptor using him all along was bad. Dick needed him to save the refugees. And it was a back and forth whether the reader could trust the guy or not. All the while the Owls never once realized Dick had already gotten the bomb out of Damians head. 

Raptor was fooling Dick. Dick was fooling the Owls.

Seeleys first four issues were much more balanced. Small mistakes were made without making them into huge spectacles that framed the whole narrative. Failing to mistrust Raptor while doing good with him, is different than hunting after a wallet that wasnt important after all.  




> []
> 
> https://www.cbr.com/nightwing-bludha...r-than-gotham/
> 
> What do you guys think about this ?


It's probably what Taylor intended. But I think the impact would have been better if we had seen the community instead of their ships. An instance of fanservice being more important than Blüdhavens people. 




> And with Dick, we have the fact no girl will be seen again. Dick becoming a Cliche after Cliche.


Hmm... maybe that's why she is his sister. Even Dick can't have a lovers spat with his sis. And she doesnt stand in a certain bat ships way.  :Stick Out Tongue: 




> Ok, since we still have to wait a month until the next issue, why don't we share some favorite moments of the character? Like Grayson #5, that is in the top 10 of the greatest books with him.
> 
> One of my favorites issues of Nightwing ever is issue #19 of Dixon's run. Takes place during the Cataclysm and it's just Dick saving people trapped in Gotham. I absolutely love the part where he saves the kid and his mom. After that he just get up and keep saving more people.


Nice one.

One of my favs is Legends of the DC Universe #6 by Kelley Puckett. Its my favorite version of Dick meeting Clark for the very first time. There is put a lot of heart into it, and it explores quite well what teaming up with a superhuman being must feel like.

legendofthedcu.jpg

----------


## Lady Nightwing

I love the issue of Superman American Alien with Dick in it.
DyrAZ2N.jpg

It shows how good a detective he could be, also the art is phenomenal.

----------


## AmiMizuno

I'm curious do you guys think Dick is popular to get another title? Something like Brave and the Bold. Him teaming up with different heroes. It doesn't have to be in the main universe and if it is it doesn't have to effect the other storylines

----------


## Drako

Issue #84 is part of the crossover, unfortunately.

----------


## Drako



----------


## hairys

> To be fair he isn't sleeping with Babs apparently, right? He slept on the couch when she was staying over at his place in Bludhaven. She keeps turning him down


She has a weak spine (literal) and he should be sensitive to that.  Instead of trying to ram her through the headboard, he should make easy, soft, low-impact love to her.

----------


## HsssH

> Issue #84 is part of the crossover, unfortunately.


At least it is not part 3 of 7, I hope.

----------


## Rac7d*

> I'm curious do you guys think Dick is popular to get another title? Something like Brave and the Bold. Him teaming up with different heroes. It doesn't have to be in the main universe and if it is it doesn't have to effect the other storylines


Until ric he was a bi monthly title along with leading his team book titans
He certainly could, but I would not recommend it. The fight for diversity and the angers by some for Bat titles having the majority of all DC books

----------


## Lady Nightwing

Getting a wee bit tired of all the Oracle is evil/bad/compromised stories. Plus the current run is a bit slow paced anyway, it doesn't really need to be derailed by an event just now, especially when the last issue ended on a cliffhanger

----------


## Frontier

How many evil Oracle stories can they tell at this point? 

Titans synergy comic looks like a proper synergy comic.

----------


## Drako

> Getting a wee bit tired of all the Oracle is evil/bad/compromised stories. Plus the current run is a bit slow paced anyway, it doesn't really need to be derailed by an event just now, *especially when the last issue ended on a cliffhanger*


The crossover will be in September, not next month.

----------


## Hypo

Covers for 84:

----------


## Lady Nightwing

> The crossover will be in September, not next month.


Whoops, reading comprehension goes brrr. Thanks  :Smile:

----------


## Lal

Those are the variants, right? Did they publish the main cover as well?
Also, a different artist for this issue. I wonder why the change.

----------


## Drako

> Those are the variants, right? Did they publish the main cover as well?
> Also, a different artist for this issue. I wonder why the change.


Yeah, those are variant. They didn't release the main cover yet.

Usually in this types of "one-shots" they change the artists. Not a big deal. Bruno will probably return in October with the main story.

----------


## Iclifton

Beyond bummed Nightwing will be derailed by this Gotham crossover for a month. Too bad we could not get double shipping this month.

----------


## Drako

Titans United variants:

----------


## Hypo

https://twitter.com/Bruno_Redondo_F/...99054367211520

----------


## Drako

Horrible news! This is going from September to November, jesus christ.
Just like Higgins and Seeley, dragged into a stupid Bat event.

----------


## Pohzee

> Horrible news! This is going from September to November, jesus christ.
> Just like Higgins and Seeley, dragged into a stupid Bat event.


On the contrary, I finally got back in but now I'm hopping out. Sounds dumb but I'm glad they're not wasting Redondo on it a letting him catch up. I might hop back in afterward

----------


## Drako

> On the contrary, I finally got back in but now I'm hopping out. Sounds dumb but I'm glad they're not wasting Redondo on it a letting him catch up. I might hop back in afterward


I don't mind guest artists, but three months is too much for a crossover. After August solicits i thought we dodged a bullet, but i was wrong.

----------


## Rac7d*

> Maaaaaann, this ending had two tropes I'm not a fan of. 1st being the hero easily getting KO'd and unmasked (And yeah I get they set it up with the whole concussion thing, but still), is there no security system on the suit for that, Oracle couldn't have remotely tasered Melinda or something? The 2nd of course being the long lost sister. I know the best course of action here is to wait and see how the story unfolds, but I'm already kind of annoyed that this is the direction we're seemingly going in as of right now. 
> 
> So not only is Dick connected to a secret society of bird fanatics with zombie ninja security via his great grandpa, but also maybe his dad wasn't really John Grayson, but really some super villain, also evil grandparents or something that assisted in brainwashing, to potentially now having a sister with ties to the man who killed his parents... Assumingly due to some sort jealous rage in Melinda not being his daughter or is it just going to be coincidence he murdered the man that had a secret kid with his 1st wife? 
> 
> I don't know, I get expanding on someone's history, but I really preferred back when Dick was just a victim to violence in Gotham and didn't have every other new character/story be a blast from from his past.


He had a concussion

----------


## Badou

Sucks his book is getting dragged into the crossover. It is expected I guess, but I have no interest in these kind of crossovers. I get they can allow for artists to take a break, but I have no patience for them anymore. They aren't worth the money. I also don't enjoy Tynion's writing, so that makes it twice as bad now that he is leading the Batman book events. Just super annoying.

----------


## Vordan

> Sucks his book is getting dragged into the crossover. It is expected I guess, but I have no interest in these kind of crossovers. I get they can allow for artists to take a break, but I have no patience for them anymore. They aren't worth the money. I also don't enjoy Tynion's writing, so that makes it twice as bad now that he is leading the Batman book events. Just super annoying.


Do these tie-ins ever accomplish anything meaningful? It’s just draining to know if you’re enjoying a non-Bruce Batbook, it will get derailed by whatever Bruce is doing.

----------


## Badou

> Do these tie-ins ever accomplish anything meaningful? It’s just draining to know if you’re enjoying a non-Bruce Batbook, it will get derailed by whatever Bruce is doing.


Storywise not really. Maybe if a book or character is in a rut they can use it to shake things up, but it mostly just derails ongoing books and disrupts their own story pretty badly. Usually there is a temporary sales bump too because the books are tying into the bigger Batman titles, but the sales jump never lasts beyond the crossover now I think. Maybe during the Snyder era you saw books hold onto more of their increases, like the Nightwing book during the Court of Owls stuff and the batgirl book during the Death of the Family with Joker, are ones that come to mind but I can't remember the last event/crossover where it felt like any books really benefitted aside from the main Batman book which is getting all the attention and focus for these big crossovers. Then I guess they can repackage the event into some trade too to resell again down the line.

----------


## Frontier

> Do these tie-ins ever accomplish anything meaningful? It’s just draining to know if you’re enjoying a non-Bruce Batbook, it will get derailed by whatever Bruce is doing.


Well, ideally an event tie-in can still service the ongoing arc of the comic while referencing the events of other comics and also offering a chance for interaction with characters they might not interact with normally. 

Emphasis on "ideally."

----------


## Murrocko

> He had a concussion


Oh he did? I must have missed that

----------


## WonderNight

Is deathstroke's new book an espionage action book? Because it sounds like what I'd love for the nightwing book to be.

----------


## HsssH

Massive disappointment that Fear State is going to last 3 issues. Taylor was moving at snail's pace as it was and now add 3 more issues of this and I feel like as far as meaningful Nightwing stories go we might be done for 2021.

Hopefully he'll manage to add something that connects back to his run in those three issues.

----------


## Restingvoice

I'm gonna hold off on saying it's derailed until it's actually derailed. Nightwing #83 is gonna set up Dick's long term plan for Bludhaven, and that will be a good ending for the current arc since Alfred's inheritance is the framing device, and Melinda Zucco will be the bigger problem that continues to the next arcs. 

The only part I can see derailed is Heartless, because it will be weird to see Dick run back to Gotham while a heart butcher is roaming around, but issue #82 and #83 should be enough to find and finish him off if he already decides Nightwing will be his main target. 

Oh and I think the problem with this issue is not that Dick is knocked out when he already had a head injury and facing an advanced supervillain, all those make sense, but the fact that the narrative choice is having him suffer multiple head injuries for a pretty... tiresome reveal. (Melinda being the bigger story arc than Heartless) 

Like why not have him skillfully fight Heartless to the point he's forced to retreat albeit stylishly and threateningly, and then find out Melinda is his sister by sneaking into her place successfully and find hard evidence for it. The result is the same, but he's not knocked out twice.

Well, okay, it doesn't establish Melinda as a legitimate threat that knows Dick's identity, but I get the feeling she's supposed to be more complex than a simple villain, so there's also no need to reveal identity this early.

----------


## hairys

Disappointing for sure.  Let's hope Taylor can make lemonade out of lemons.  Probably the #1 most important skill of any writer at the Big 2 these days is to be able to navigate a crossover / event while still telling your story well.

----------


## Drako

> Disappointing for sure.  Let's hope Taylor can make lemonade out of lemons.  Probably the #1 most important skill of any writer at the Big 2 these days is to be able to navigate a crossover / event while still telling your story well.


Pretty sure he had to deal with crossovers in All New Wolverine too. I think it was Civil War II.

----------


## Konja7

> I don't mind guest artists, but three months is too much for a crossover. After August solicits i thought we dodged a bullet, but i was wrong.


I though it was a dodget bullet after Williamson said Robin won't be part of the crossover. It seems Nightwing doesn't have such luck.

----------


## Grayson - The Dark Heir

Wait, I don't think the Fear State event will last 3 Nightwing issues, it's just that the joined covers are for three issues and Nightwing is one of the books included. It's probably Nightwing, Batman, and Detective Comics or something like that.

Still hate the idea that we have to lose an issue of Nightwing for the sake of the crossover. He lives in Bludhaven, he can appear in Gotham at the drop of a hat if the storyline calls for it. I mean he's appeared in Batman without it being made into a big deal anyways, like the Ghost-Maker introduction issue. We all know Dick's history with Batman events over the past 10 years, he's not going to play an important role and is purely there to prop the event and Bruce up so this just sucks. I really hoped for better now that Taylor and Redondo were leading the book, but I guess not.

----------


## Avi

> Wait, I don't think the Fear State event will last 3 Nightwing issues, it's just that the joined covers are for three issues and Nightwing is one of the books included. It's probably Nightwing, Batman, and Detective Comics or something like that.


Thought so too the first time I heard three covers but nope. Their editor already confirmed it's NW #74-76.

----------


## AmiMizuno

I wonder. Tom says he is a A lister but so far he been getting his butt handed to him. Dick underestimating Heartlesss some really off since this is the first time they meet. I mean it would be helpful if they used his head injury to show he still not fukky healed but no. They go with he is fine and still kicking it. I hope this pays off

----------


## Rac7d*

> Is deathstroke's new book an espionage action book? Because it sounds like what I'd love for the nightwing book to be.


It sounds like his off brand teen titans redone

----------


## Grayson - The Dark Heir

> Thought so too the first time I heard three covers but nope. Their editor already confirmed it's NW #74-76.


...I have very little faith left in this run now. Like, this is basically Ric in Joker War-tier, and I was really hoping we were past that lol.

Edit: I forgot about the Monster Men crossover, but that was to buy time for artists who weren't used to working on twice monthly books. Maybe I'm just oversensitive to these things after Ric.

----------


## Arsenal

> I'm gonna hold off on saying it's derailed until it's actually derailed. Nightwing #83 is gonna set up Dick's long term plan for Bludhaven, and that will be a good ending for the current arc since Alfred's inheritance is the framing device, and Melinda Zucco will be the bigger problem that continues to the next arcs. 
> 
> The only part I can see derailed is Heartless, because it will be weird to see Dick run back to Gotham while a heart butcher is roaming around, but issue #82 and #83 should be enough to find and finish him off if he already decides Nightwing will be his main target. 
> 
> Oh and I think the problem with this issue is not that Dick is knocked out when he already had a head injury and facing an advanced supervillain, all those make sense, but the fact that the narrative choice is having him suffer multiple head injuries for a pretty... tiresome reveal. (Melinda being the bigger story arc than Heartless) 
> 
> Like why not have him skillfully fight Heartless to the point he's forced to retreat albeit stylishly and threateningly, and then find out Melinda is his sister by sneaking into her place successfully and find hard evidence for it. The result is the same, but he's not knocked out twice.
> 
> Well, okay, it doesn't establish Melinda as a legitimate threat that knows Dick's identity, but I get the feeling she's supposed to be more complex than a simple villain, so there's also no need to reveal identity this early.


Maybe the bits about Dick’s head injury is some kind of subplot that Taylor has plans for later down the line?

----------


## Avi

> ...I have very little faith left in this run now. Like, this is basically Ric in Joker War-tier, and I was really hoping we were past that lol.
> 
> Edit: I forgot about the Monster Men crossover, but that was to buy time for artists who weren't used to working on twice monthly books. Maybe I'm just oversensitive to these things after Ric.


Yeah, looking at the extend of the event it seems to be very much like Joker War. But I think the difference is that Taylor & Redondo planned for Fear State from the very beginning. While it seems as if Jurgens was more or less pushed into giving Dick his memories back through Joker War instead of the Owls, there is no such indication this time around (yet). 

As DC likes to remind us Fear State has been a year in the making. Barbara has been heavily involved in Dick's run so far. Now her involvement continues. She gets her new look designed by Redondo like ironically people speculated before this run started, and it premieres on a Nightwing cover. I also can't imagine Redondo would actively ask his editor if he can draw a triptych for the event Issues if he and Taylor weren't into this event.




> I love this book so much. It's exactly what I needed after Ric Grayson.
> That said I have two not-quite-complaints
> 1. Taylor, I know I asked for a "Nightwing & Robin" series, and I appreciate this, really I do, but we both know I was talking about Damian.
> 2. I really hope Taylor and whoever is writing Titans get some coordination going, cause right now it really seems like they're playing chicken with Dick cheating on Babs and Kory.
> 
> Long lost sister routine is cliche but will roll with it.


While I agree that the constant back and forth with both Babs and Kory is cumbersome, looks bad, and is frankly not doing anything good for any fandom involved, Dick isn't cheating.

----------


## Godlike13

Jurgens run continued to exist so it could tie into events like Year of the Villains and Joker War. His entire purpose was to stretch to the next event. They didn’t interrupt his run, they were the driving force. Personally im not too upset over the tie interruption, as Redondo was going to need a break at some point, and i'd rather he does all the main stuff. But ideally 1 or 2 issues at most would have been prefered. 3 is, ehh.

----------


## Restingvoice

> Maybe the bits about Dick’s head injury is some kind of subplot that Taylor has plans for later down the line?


I can see it being used again, I just rather not, because he's been having a head injury for long enough. 

I also don't want it to be a crutch for people below Dick's skill to take him out when the plot needed... unless they're taking it seriously as a disability problem. That he has a physical weakness now. Now that's an interesting angle that should've been explored in Ric Grayson, but they went to the most annoying way possible.

----------


## HsssH

> Edit: I forgot about the Monster Men crossover, but that was to buy time for artists who weren't used to working on twice monthly books. Maybe I'm just oversensitive to these things after Ric.


Monster Men was two issues and book was double shipping so we basically just had one skip month.

----------


## Drako

Nightwing might appear in TEC. Maybe for Fear State?



https://twitter.com/VikBogdanovic/st...239362/photo/1

----------


## Grayson - The Dark Heir

If Dick is appearing in 'Tec, it means the Nightwing book didn't need to give up three whole issues for this imo.




> Monster Men was two issues and book was double shipping so we basically just had one skip month.


Fair enough. Three whole months for Fear State is just egregious imo.

----------


## Lady Nightwing

Oh man, love the art style but that mask wouldn't do much to protect his identity.

----------


## Frontier

> Nightwing might appear in TEC. Maybe for Fear State?
> 
> 
> 
> https://twitter.com/VikBogdanovic/st...239362/photo/1


When did Dick and Huntress switch masks? Even Bruce's eyes look weird.

----------


## AmiMizuno

I'm curious in order for Nightwing to get his own animated movie I take it they should adopted Robin year one and then Nightwing year one or should they do the storyline in the Titans

----------


## Ascended

> I'm curious in order for Nightwing to get his own animated movie I take it they should adopted Robin year one and then Nightwing year one or should they do the storyline in the Titans


You only need a basic flashback to establish that Dick was once Robin, and if you go with the proper origin of the Nightwing name, his relationship with uncle Clark.

A film could pick up anywhere in Dick's career as long as it provides that.

----------


## AmiMizuno

I hope when he does appear they don't neft him. I wonder if one reason is mew 52 Duck Grayson. I didn't read much around the that time was Dick Grayson's run doing good?

----------


## agentofthebat

The new Nightwing comic was awesome this past week! I love where they are going!

----------


## Konja7

> You only need a basic flashback to establish that Dick was once Robin, and if you go with the proper origin of the Nightwing name, his relationship with uncle Clark.


I suspect the part with uncle Clark will never be remembered for a movie.

Unfortunately, Nightwing name is more associated with Batman (due to Dick). Very few people know that name has a "Kryptonian origin".

----------


## HsssH

Good news for people (all 2 of them?) who liked Shawn: https://twitter.com/HackinTimSeeley/...76147936075782

----------


## Drako

https://twitter.com/SilentPr0tag/sta...930305/photo/1

----------


## Frontier

> Good news for people (all 2 of them?) who liked Shawn: https://twitter.com/HackinTimSeeley/...76147936075782


I guess I either make 3 or am part of those two, but I'm happy to see her back  :Smile: .

----------


## Drako

> Good news for people (all 2 of them?) who liked Shawn: https://twitter.com/HackinTimSeeley/...76147936075782


Interesting to see Nightwing characters around the DC books. Now we have Robin, Suicide Squad and King Shark with them.

----------


## Rac7d*

> Good news for people (all 2 of them?) who liked Shawn: https://twitter.com/HackinTimSeeley/...76147936075782


Its nice to see pieces of his world breath on its own intermingle with the larger DC universe

----------


## AmiMizuno

I hope this means that Nightwing will appear more in other books too. So Does this mean Shawn will appear in Nightwing more too. I did love her character. 

On off topic. You guys think we will get Nightwing animated film where he doesn't get his butt beaten? I hope Dc finally allows us a solo animated movie

----------


## Restingvoice

> I hope this means that Nightwing will appear more in other books too. So Does this mean Shawn will appear in Nightwing more too. I did love her character.


The writer's different so it depends on Taylor

----------


## HsssH

Yeah, I think this is just Seeley using his older characters instead of creating new ones.

----------


## Lal

Is Nightwing 78 going to third printing? Did we know that?

https://previewsworld.com/Catalog/MAY218493

----------


## Digifiend

> Pretty sure he had to deal with crossovers in All New Wolverine too. I think it was Civil War II.


Yeah. Old Man Logan didn't have a tie-in, and neither did his Extraordinary X-Men team, so Taylor took the opportunity to have the alternate universe Wolverine meet Laura and the newly introduced Gabby. In fact, none of the other X books were involved in Civil War II due to it being immediately before Inhumans vs X-Men, so I think Taylor chose to do a tie-in.

----------


## Starrius

> I love this book so much. It's exactly what I needed after Ric Grayson.
> That said I have two not-quite-complaints
> 1. Taylor, I know I asked for a "Nightwing & Robin" series, and I appreciate this, really I do, but we both know I was talking about Damian.
> 2. I really hope Taylor and whoever is writing Titans get some coordination going, cause right now it really seems like they're playing chicken with Dick cheating on Babs and Kory.
> 
> Long lost sister routine is cliche but will roll with it.



There is nothing romantic going on between Dick and Babs.  They are just friends right now. 
It's not like they've kissed nor had sex again in the comics. 

A guy and gal can be friends with each other without being romantic.

----------


## Arsenal

> Yeah. Old Man Logan didn't have a tie-in, and neither did his Extraordinary X-Men team, so Taylor took the opportunity to have the alternate universe Wolverine meet Laura and the newly introduced Gabby. In fact, none of the other X books were involved in Civil War II due to it being immediately before Inhumans vs X-Men, so I think Taylor chose to do a tie-in.


I wouldn’t be surprised if that’s the case here too. 

An event tie in doesn’t inherently have to be a bad thing, especially when a writer has time to plan for it ahead of time so they can figure out how to use it to benefit whatever story they plan on telling. So I’m choosing to believe that’s the case here until given reason to believe otherwise.

----------


## Drako

> I wouldn’t be surprised if that’s the case here too. 
> 
> An event tie in doesn’t inherently have to be a bad thing, especially when a writer has time to plan for it ahead of time so they can figure out how to use it to benefit whatever story they plan on telling. So I’m choosing to believe that’s the case here until given reason to believe otherwise.


I'm trying to remember when was the last that we had a good tie-in during this Bat events. 

I remember really liking the two Court of Owls issues Higgins wrote.

----------


## Rac7d*

Remember when dick had a brother lol

Anyway is this dick Grayson back into play with the current Batman being Keaton?

----------


## Frontier

> Remember when dick had a brother lol
> 
> Anyway is this dick Grayson back into play with the current Batman being Keaton?


I think in _Young Justice_ the Flying Graysons were like a whole, large, family unit that died. 

I don't know why....a big family felt more carny?

----------


## AmiMizuno

> Yeah, I think this is just Seeley using his older characters instead of creating new ones.


I wonder you guys think Bateditors will be more free in letting Dick being used since it seems Taylor is getting more freedom

----------


## Ascended

> I suspect the part with uncle Clark will never be remembered for a movie.
> 
> Unfortunately, Nightwing name is more associated with Batman (due to Dick). Very few people know that name has a "Kryptonian origin".


Most likely. The only way I can see an adaptation using the Kryptonian origin for the name is if the show was actively trying to expand the IP beyond the usual Gotham influences. Like, a straight adaptation of Judas, when Dick first put on the Nightwing suit, might use the Kryptonian origin just because it fits neatly with the other aliens, demons, etc., that populated the NTT. 

But no, I don't think the real origins of the Nightwing name will find its way into any adaptation. It should; it's a hell of a way to showcase Dick's wide-ranging relationships across the DCU. But I doubt it'll ever happen. 




> I wonder you guys think Bateditors will be more free in letting Dick being used since it seems Taylor is getting more freedom


I think it's less about the editors allowing more freedom and more about Taylor being a big enough name to have more free reign in his work. 

And AT&T, I'd assume, would do their due diligence once they got control of the DC catalog and examined sales, larger media profiles, interviewed DC managers and employees, and tried to get a line on how viable DC's properties are/can be. It's possible that AT&T saw more potential in Nightwing that Didio did and told DC to act accordingly, but I think it's likely that this newfound freedom is primarily due to Taylor being a proven success with Injustice and DCeased.

----------


## Drako

Cover for the thrid print of Nightwing 78.

----------


## HsssH

Well it is selling, can't argue against that.




> I'm trying to remember when was the last that we had a good tie-in during this Bat events. 
> 
> I remember really liking the two Court of Owls issues Higgins wrote.


It always sounds possible in theory, but 9 times out of 10 it ends up being either bad, full of contradictions, pointless or a combination of all three.

----------


## Rac7d*

> Cover for the thrid print of Nightwing 78.


when does it come out?
I dont think it is as cool as the previous covers so hopefully I can finally get it phsically

----------


## Drako

> when does it come out?
> I dont think it is as cool as the previous covers so hopefully I can finally get it phsically





> Is Nightwing 78 going to third printing? Did we know that?
> 
> https://previewsworld.com/Catalog/MAY218493


In Shops: Jul 27, 2021

----------


## Frontier

> Cover for the thrid print of Nightwing 78.


I'm honestly tempted to think this might actually happen with the way Taylor writes  :Stick Out Tongue: .

----------


## phonogram12

> I'm honestly tempted to think this might actually happen with the way Taylor writes .


If it's even half as good as his run so far, I look forward to it!

----------


## Arsenal

I could definitely see a Nightwing Annual focusing on Bitewing

----------


## Grayson - The Dark Heir

> I suspect the part with uncle Clark will never be remembered for a movie.
> 
> Unfortunately, Nightwing name is more associated with Batman (due to Dick). Very few people know that name has a "Kryptonian origin".





> Most likely. The only way I can see an adaptation using the Kryptonian origin for the name is if the show was actively trying to expand the IP beyond the usual Gotham influences. Like, a straight adaptation of Judas, when Dick first put on the Nightwing suit, might use the Kryptonian origin just because it fits neatly with the other aliens, demons, etc., that populated the NTT. 
> 
> But no, I don't think the real origins of the Nightwing name will find its way into any adaptation. It should; it's a hell of a way to showcase Dick's wide-ranging relationships across the DCU. But I doubt it'll ever happen.


I see a lot of Nightwing fans bring this up, but does it really matter? I get why we're so concerned with the connection to Superman, but it's not like any Superman fan cares. And Superman creators definitely don't care. When was the last time Dick was even casually relevant to a mainline Superman story? That one DC You Action Comics crossover during the Grayson era? What about before that? It gets worse when you look at other media adaptations as well, it's either very bat-centric or just not interested in touching it. At this point, the Superman connection is more of a trivia point than anything else.

I say all that to say it'd be nice if it did matter more. I'm mostly just salty lol, but maybe Taylor will change things moving forward. Like, Jon's been around since 2016 and he has never met Dick. You know, supposedly one of Clark's most trusted allies, the first kid "raised" by the hero community and Clark in particular, and an Earthling operating with a Kryptonian name. Apparently none of that is important enough for Dick to have even been relevant for a single page. And that's not considering the Super Sons book was written by Tomasi, a former Nightwing writer and self-professed fan. Either he wasn't allowed to do it, speaking to the greater culture from editorial that we've discussed oh so much, or even he didn't care enough about the Nightwing connection.

----------


## Avi

> [...]
> 
> I say all that to say it'd be nice if it did matter more. I'm mostly just salty lol, but maybe Taylor will change things moving forward. Like, Jon's been around since 2016 and he has never met Dick. You know, supposedly one of Clark's most trusted allies, the first kid "raised" by the hero community and Clark in particular, and an Earthling operating with a Kryptonian name. Apparently none of that is important enough for Dick to have even been relevant for a single page. And that's not considering the Super Sons book was written by Tomasi, a former Nightwing writer and self-professed fan. Either he wasn't allowed to do it, speaking to the greater culture from editorial that we've discussed oh so much, or even he didn't care enough about the Nightwing connection.



You're right. Dick hasn't been important enough to get introduced to Jon. 

And I'd argue that's not only a "Clark and Dick" problem. It's also a "Damian and Dick" problem. Dick hasn't been important to the DCU and neither to Damian. Some of that has to do with the fact that Dick has been taken out of the DCU started for more years than not since the N52, the other with making Dick just another brother to Damian instead of keeping their unique dynamic alive.

Dick's solo title made an effort to show his relationships with Damian and Clark during Rebirth as soon as it didn't or couldn't anymore these relationships died.

It could have been because of editorial, but it's too early to say if things are about to change. From what I have seen of Robin it doesn't look like it except if #5 suddenly remembers that Dick had a hand in Damian becoming Robin. And sure, Taylor joked about a Robin - Superman:SOK - Nightwing crossover, but that's all it was. A joke.

All I know is that Dick's reach into the DCU was far greater when Mark Doyle was still Bat editor.

----------


## Digifiend

Dick's second stint as Batman, when he made Damian Robin, was never removed from canon, was it? Didn't New 52 Nightwing start with him returning to his own mantle, rather than just always having been Nightwing since he stopped being Robin?

----------


## Godlike13

> You're right. Dick hasn't been important enough to get introduced to Jon. 
> 
> And I'd argue that's not only a "Clark and Dick" problem. It's also a "Damian and Dick" problem. Dick hasn't been important to the DCU and neither to Damian. Some of that has to do with the fact that Dick has been taken out of the DCU started for more years than not since the N52, the other with making Dick just another brother to Damian instead of keeping their unique dynamic alive.
> 
> Dick's solo title made an effort to show his relationships with Damian and Clark during Rebirth as soon as it didn't or couldn't anymore these relationships died.
> 
> It could have been because of editorial, but it's too early to say if things are about to change. From what I have seen of Robin it doesn't look like it except if #5 suddenly remembers that Dick had a hand in Damian becoming Robin. And sure, Taylor joked about a Robin - Superman:SOK - Nightwing crossover, but that's all it was. A joke.
> 
> All I know is that Dick's reach into the DCU was far greater when Mark Doyle was still Bat editor.


Dick’s important enough just on the basis of being the first Robin. Just between that and contrasting Damian, there plenty enough reason and importance there to easily do it. And it’s not like Jon is a character only important characters get to meet. It’s just not something they have wanted to do, and for the last 3 years there was Ric and that whole agenda. The only writers that got to use Dick seemed to have to been either really big with big influence, or really low with friends in right places. So Dick hasn’t been meeting with anyone. No one wanted to touch that stink with a 10ft pole. And unfortunately during that time Jon kind of went to shit and his character has gone into a direction that the meeting wouldn’t really be that interesting anymore. He’s no longer that doe eyed kid, but this angst driven young adult.

----------


## WonderNight

Yeah dick's independence from batman and connections to the greater dcu are becoming less and less relevant as time goes on, and at the same time the batfam is growing bigger and bigger.

But hey I've come to accept that this is what nightwing is now, just another Robin for batman.

Also dick making Damian robin will become as irrelevant as the nightwing kryptonian origin. We all see it coming just a matter of time because nightwing is just another bat sidekick himself.

If they would just invert the why nightwing is run. Like  make his solo the dcu book and his team book  can be the bat books.

----------


## Avi

> Dick's second stint as Batman, when he made Damian Robin, was never removed from canon, was it? Didn't New 52 Nightwing start with him returning to his own mantle, rather than just always having been Nightwing since he stopped being Robin?


Yes, Dick being Batman was never out of continuity. The New52 still put a lot of attention on Damian's and Dick's relationship. 

It continued in DCYou when Dick's "ghost" cameoed in Robin:SOB because Dick was "dead". Grayson showed their heartfelt reunion. The first 1 1/2 Nightwing Rebirth years still featured Damian from now and then, which imo marks the end of depicting their unique dynamic at the moment.

The second Ric happened Damian obviously doesn't fit into the anti-Bats-Ric era anymore except for the flashback Annual. Dick is a non-issue for Damian in TT until the last Issue where he is all of a sudden one of the reasons why Damian "goes off the deep end". Their reunion in Tec was botched/they never got one. TT didn't show one. Dick just has the letter. And in the few out-of-continuity Gotham Nights stuff, their dynamic isn't distinctive either.

IF Robin shows Damian's history but only with Bruce, and IF Nightwing doesn't care about Damian either.




> Dick’s important enough just on the basis of being the first Robin. Just between that and contrasting Damian, there plenty enough reason and importance there to easily do it. And it’s not like Jon is a character only important characters get to meet. It’s just not something they have wanted to do, and for the last 3 years there was Ric and that whole agenda. The only writers the got to use Dick seemed to have to been either really big with big influence, or really low with friends in right places. So Dick hasn’t been meeting with anyone. No one wanted to touch that stink with a 10ft pole. And unfortunately during during that time Jon kind of went to shit and his character has gone into a direction that the meeting wouldn’t really be that interesting anymore. He’s no longer that doe eyed kid, but an angst driven young adult.


Sure, but where has that contrast been? The last time it was showcased was the Nightwing Annual with the Owls... or did Damian just dramatically perch on Dick's bed and that was it? I honestly don't remember.

I agree that it has a lot to do with Ric, but isn't the whole point of Super Sons that it is out of continuity, which means neither Ric nor the botching of Jon would have any influence on Dick meeting him? Also, as far as I know, Dick hasn't even ever been mentioned in front of Jon. Technically, Jon doesn't even know Dick exists.

----------


## Restingvoice

> I think in _Young Justice_ the Flying Graysons were like a whole, large, family unit that died. 
> 
> I don't know why....a big family felt more carny?


I don't know how large they are but it sounds like they're making sure ALL the Graysons die so no one but Bruce can adopt him lol

----------


## Ascended

> I see a lot of Nightwing fans bring this up, but does it really matter?.


Not really, no. 

The Kryptonian aspect of the Nightwing name only matters for a couple reasons. First, it gives weight and meaning behind "Nightwing." Rather than some random name Dick pulled out of his ass, it speaks to the kind of hero Dick wants to be and the kind of person he looks up to and wants to emulate. And it's telling that the name comes from uncle Clark and not Bruce. That's important because it reminds us that Dick is one of the few people who will actively call Bruce out on his bullshit and not just shrug it off with a "he's Batman! Whatyagonnado?!" 

It also helps reinforce Dick's connections to the wider DCU. It's not just a connection to Superman, it's a statement that Dick isn't *just* a Gotham kid, that the whole DCU is his playground and he's got ties everywhere.

None of this is a major thing, or so critical to Dick's character you ruin him by changing it. It really is, and always has been, little more than trivia. But it's not just the logistics of the name's origin, it's about the approach to Dick as an IP. When DC acknowledges that Kryptonian origin of Nightwing, Dick gets written and treated as more of his own man. When the origins of Nightwing are ignored or changed to better reflect Gotham's "grounded" narrative soil, Dick gets written and treated like a sidekick.

----------


## AmiMizuno

> The writer's different so it depends on Taylor


You think Taylor will at least have other characters appear other than the Bats?

----------


## Rakiduam

> I see a lot of Nightwing fans bring this up, but does it really matter? I get why we're so concerned with the connection to Superman, but it's not like any Superman fan cares. And Superman creators definitely don't care. When was the last time Dick was even casually relevant to a mainline Superman story? That one DC You Action Comics crossover during the Grayson era? What about before that? It gets worse when you look at other media adaptations as well, it's either very bat-centric or just not interested in touching it. At this point, the Superman connection is more of a trivia point than anything else.
> 
> I say all that to say it'd be nice if it did matter more. I'm mostly just salty lol, but maybe Taylor will change things moving forward. Like, Jon's been around since 2016 and he has never met Dick. You know, supposedly one of Clark's most trusted allies, the first kid "raised" by the hero community and Clark in particular, and an Earthling operating with a Kryptonian name. Apparently none of that is important enough for Dick to have even been relevant for a single page. And that's not considering the Super Sons book was written by Tomasi, a former Nightwing writer and self-professed fan. Either he wasn't allowed to do it, speaking to the greater culture from editorial that we've discussed oh so much, or even he didn't care enough about the Nightwing connection.


It´is another piece of Nightwing´s character that is lost, making him a lesser character.




> You think Taylor will at least have other characters appear other than the Bats?


No. he is a Batman sidekick in that book, not reason to get the readers confused like he was something more.

----------


## Rac7d*

> Yeah dick's independence from batman and connections to the greater dcu are becoming less and less relevant as time goes on, and at the same time the batfam is growing bigger and bigger.
> 
> But hey I've come to accept that this is what nightwing is now, just another Robin for batman.
> 
> Also dick making Damian robin will become as irrelevant as the nightwing kryptonian origin. We all see it coming just a matter of time because nightwing is just another bat sidekick himself.
> 
> If they would just invert the why nightwing is run. Like  make his solo the dcu book and his team book  can be the bat books.


if for some crazy reason DC decided to sell Batman off, nightwing would go with him. Nightwing Will not and cannot be separated from the batfamily permanently
thats it

----------


## WonderNight

> if for some crazy reason DC decided to sell Batman off, nightwing would go with him. Nightwing Will not and cannot be separated from the batfamily permanently
> thats it


What? Nobody's asking for nightwing to be separated from batman or the batfamily, just for him to not be limited too them or his main focus or setting. Batfamily fans are like scared of dick's Independence or something.

----------


## Hypo

https://twitter.com/Bruno_Redondo_F/...99937961889792

----------


## Drako

We saw this designs a while back, looks like they will make the changes during this crossover.

----------


## Frontier

> https://twitter.com/Bruno_Redondo_F/...99937961889792


Interesting point for the grapple.

----------


## Digifiend

lol, Dick's bio is completely redacted in the Teen Titans Academy Yearbook. Not approved before the print deadline, apparently. Surely they could've just said he was the original Robin?

----------


## Frontier

> lol, Dick's bio is completely redacted in the Teen Titans Academy Yearbook. Not approved before the print deadline, apparently. Surely they could've just said he was the original Robin?


Bats are known for being discreet...

----------


## Rac7d*

> lol, Dick's bio is completely redacted in the Teen Titans Academy Yearbook. Not approved before the print deadline, apparently. Surely they could've just said he was the original Robin?


He has a secret identity

----------


## WonderNight

With seeley doing the robin mini in October could he bring back the entertainment vegas look and feel of city or is that buldhaven done? I hope it comes back if nightwing is in buldhaven for good.

----------


## Avi

I hope the little backpack makes it into the possible new design.

Sheridan's handling of Dick so far has been... something. I wonder if there'll even be a satisfying exploration of Dick's re-introduced dynamic with Deathstroke. Maybe Williamson can handle that? 

If Robins has truly won, I could see Seeley going for the Vegas feel again provided there is no mandate against it. I certainly miss the vibe.

----------


## Digifiend

> He has a secret identity


Hence, don't mention the Flying Graysons. The fact Nightwing is the original Robin isn't a secret.

----------


## Restingvoice

> I hope the little backpack makes it into the possible new design.
> 
> Sheridan's handling of Dick so far has been... something. I wonder if there'll even be a satisfying exploration of Dick's re-introduced dynamic with Deathstroke. Maybe Williamson can handle that? 
> 
> If Robins has truly won, I could see Seeley going for the Vegas feel again provided there is no mandate against it. I certainly miss the vibe.


The backpack is in the cover of issue... the one where Dick changes before speaking to public. It and the escrima sticks attached to it is sitting in one of the steel balcony thing behind the stage.

Top right


You can see it on his back when he's swinging too. It's VERY thin.

----------


## Avi

> Hence, don't mention the Flying Graysons. The fact Nightwing is the original Robin isn't a secret.


Yeah, and they all know he was Red X too, so there is that. 

The bios are about how the students view their teachers. They weren't written by the Titans.




> The backpack is in the cover of issue... the one where Dick changes before speaking to public. It and the escrima sticks attached to it is sitting in one of the steel balcony thing behind the stage.
> 
> Top right
> 
> 
> You can see it on his back when he's swinging too. It's VERY thin.


Oh, nice. Thank you. I didn't notice its presence at all.

----------


## Pohzee

Damn, I love the backpack, but I was hoping we'd get that full redesign. Getting rid of the blue on the boots and whatnot

----------


## Drako

Covers for NIGHTWING #84 to #86

----------


## Rac7d*

> Covers for NIGHTWING #84 to #86


I’m haven’t really enjoyed any kind of bat crossover 
They tend to derail or harm dick, but those covers look good

----------


## Rakiduam

Oh look more bats! And you people were worried the crossover would affect or change the book.

----------


## Badou

> Damn, I love the backpack, but I was hoping we'd get that full redesign. Getting rid of the blue on the boots and whatnot


I feel like you need something to break up the all black from the chest down. So I don't mine the blue stripe on the legs. Maybe blue boots would work better? Or a blue utility belt? Not sure.

----------


## Rac7d*

> Covers for NIGHTWING #84 to #86


And scarecrow is the head villain? Proably to coincide with Titans this fall.

----------


## Avi

So are the Nightwing tie-ins gonna be used to jumpstart Batgirls? Nice to see Cass and Steph there. I hope after the event Nightwing will be done with the Bat-centric stuff.

----------


## Arsenal

I think the FS event in general will be used to jumpstart Batgirls

----------


## Pohzee

I like the suit, but it's slightly concerning to me that Redondo is the artist redesigning her suit, especially since he's not drawing the interiors. I like Barbara, but I don't really want her overstaying her welcome in Dick's book too long. I want to see him more independent of the Bat Office. And the less Tim and Steph I have to see in his book, the better.

----------


## Godlike13

DC probably just recognizes his talent, and since he’s drawing her a lot anyway probably just asked him to submit some designs. What I find interesting is Nightwing never actually got a redesign. We have seen two design cycles with other characters but they are still holding onto the rebirth design for Nightwing.

----------


## Rac7d*

> So are the Nightwing tie-ins gonna be used to jumpstart Batgirls? Nice to see Cass and Steph there. I hope after the event Nightwing will be done with the Bat-centric stuff.


Lol non such thing 
He was born from the bat world and he will always return their
Harley Quinn has grown as as big as one can and Gotham will always be her home

----------


## Pohzee

> DC probably just recognizes his talent, and since he’s drawing her a lot anyway probably just asked him to submit some designs. What I find interesting is Nightwing never actually got a redesign. We have seen two design cycles with other characters but they are still holding onto the rebirth design for Nightwing.


They've got it down. No need to mess with it. Same as Batman.

----------


## Digifiend

> DC probably just recognizes his talent, and since he’s drawing her a lot anyway probably just asked him to submit some designs. What I find interesting is Nightwing never actually got a redesign. We have seen two design cycles with other characters but they are still holding onto the rebirth design for Nightwing.


He did change costumes twice, once when he became Ric (with the greasepaint) and again (the partly red suit with the standard domino mask) when he started remembering things. When he purged the fake memories and fully went back to his old self, he changed back to his Rebirth suit. Thus, he has actually changed costume too (around the same time Cass and Steph did), but it's not a new design.

----------


## Godlike13

Ric is not Nightwing. The fact the even Ric got a redesign in its 3 years, while Nightwing has had the same design for 5 years now just makes it all the more interesting. Even if the current design is good, except for the arm buckles, sometimes its just about signifying change in a tangible and visible manner.

----------


## Badou

> DC probably just recognizes his talent, and since he’s drawing her a lot anyway probably just asked him to submit some designs. What I find interesting is Nightwing never actually got a redesign. We have seen two design cycles with other characters but they are still holding onto the rebirth design for Nightwing.


Maybe they are saving it for after issue #100 and wanted to keep this entire run of Nightwing with Dick in the same Nightwing costume. I'm sure if they had relaunched the Nightwing book with Taylor and Redondo he might have got a new design then, although I doubt it would look much different, but they decided against that. Still, issue #100 is a little under 2 years away still. That is a long time to plan out when thing in comics can change fast.

----------


## Rakiduam

> Lol non such thing 
> He was born from the bat world and he will always return their
> Harley Quinn has grown as as big as one can and Gotham will always be her home


For him to return needs to leave for a minute or two.

----------


## AmiMizuno

> Lol non such thing 
> He was born from the bat world and he will always return their
> Harley Quinn has grown as as big as one can and Gotham will always be her home


But he is also a Titan. Why not have him do a Titan crossover too. It's yes he is a Bat but he isn't just that. He has worked with the Titans and JL. Why not have Titans be a center stage for him since they are using him too. He has more to often in a crossover not just the Bats but all the Dc. A Titans and Nightwing crossover would be nice but editors I wonder if they are having issues.

----------


## Rac7d*

> But he is also a Titan. Why not have him do a Titan crossover too. It's yes he is a Bat but he isn't just that. He has worked with the Titans and JL. Why not have Titans be a center stage for him since they are using him too. He has more to often in a crossover not just the Bats but all the Dc. A Titans and Nightwing crossover would be nice but editors I wonder if they are having issues.


We are entering the 5th generation of titans. Dick is teaching a new generation, he can’t take center stage their anymore he teaching the next crop ready for that. The titans will not be interfering with Gotham if you meant that.  I don’t think the titans have ever been useful in any kind of crisis or world event. Their treatment in injustice and forever evil kind proves that DC still doesn’t think titans=justice league. That’s why they let the JL shut them down and let the Suicide squad and teen titans stay.  

Nightwing gets to much out of Gotham/Batman to leave it

----------


## HsssH

> Maybe they are saving it for after issue #100 and wanted to keep this entire run of Nightwing with Dick in the same Nightwing costume. I'm sure if they had relaunched the Nightwing book with Taylor and Redondo he might have got a new design then, although I doubt it would look much different, but they decided against that. Still, issue #100 is a little under 2 years away still. That is a long time to plan out when thing in comics can change fast.


I wonder if we are getting #100 or legacy renumbering to #300?

Nightwing vol. 1 - 4
Nightwing vol. 2 - 153
Nightwing vol. 3 - 30
Grayson - 20
Nightwing vol. 4 - 81

Totals to 288 and a bit closer if we add specials like Future End or 1000000. Personally I'd prefer 300 since it would highlight that Dick is one of the longest running solo heroes at DC.

----------


## Frontier

> We are entering the 5th generation of titans. Dick is teaching a new generation, he can’t take center stage their anymore he teaching the next crop ready for that. The titans will not be interfering with Gotham if you meant that.  I don’t think the titans have ever been useful in any kind of crisis or world event. Their treatment in injustice and forever evil kind proves that DC still doesn’t think titans=justice league. That’s why they let the JL shut them down and let the Suicide squad and teen titans stay.  
> 
> Nightwing gets to much out of Gotham/Batman to leave it


The only time I remember the Titans being in Gotham was in Gotham Central where the police questioned them over whether Tim was dead (and we had a hilarious Starfire scene).

----------


## Restingvoice

> The only time I remember the Titans being in Gotham was in Gotham Central where the police questioned them over whether Tim was dead (and we had a hilarious Starfire scene).


The one where all the guys... and the lesbians... are staring? I only saw those panels and never know the context ^^

----------


## Frontier

> The one where all the guys... and the lesbians... are staring? I only saw those panels and never know the context ^^


Yep:

----------


## Rac7d*

> The only time I remember the Titans being in Gotham was in Gotham Central where the police questioned them over whether Tim was dead (and we had a hilarious Starfire scene).


Thats why im excited for the new tv season, Superpowered characters never spend much time in gotham, for breaking the story.

----------


## Rakiduam

> Thats why im excited for the new tv season, Superpowered characters never spend much time in gotham, for breaking the story.


Oh yeah, nerfed Titans as sidekick in a Batman story. Super existing.

----------


## Restingvoice

> The only time I remember the Titans being in Gotham was in Gotham Central where the police questioned them over whether Tim was dead (and we had a hilarious Starfire scene).


Oh yeah at the top of my head...

Starfire visited the Manor looking for Dick, it was Strawberry Jason who answered
Young Justice team help out during No Man's Land
Cassie Sandsmark, Bunker, Kon-El, Bar Tor, and Solstice followed the trail of Tim to Gotham, met Batgirl, and round up some Jokerized people with Starfire and Arsenal while looking for Tim and Jason
Starfire and Roy Harper visited Wayne Manor to pick up Jason 
Starfire visited Dick while he's contemplating marrying Barbara in Bubble Gotham and gave her blessing
Lilith, Wally, Donna, Garth, and Roy all stayed in Dick's apartment following regaining Wally's memory, up until they build Titans Tower
Starfire, Raven, Beast Boy, and Wallace got their hands full of Dark Multiverse Robins while looking for Damian

----------


## Robotman

> I feel like you need something to break up the all black from the chest down. So I don't mine the blue stripe on the legs. Maybe blue boots would work better? Or a blue utility belt? Not sure.


Absolutely. Many comic book costumes dont translate well into live action but they look great in a drawing. The color break makes things pop and can even make action sequences look better.

----------


## Rac7d*

Not sure if this is new details on the Nightwing movie
https://www.instagram.com/p/CQ5_vjCN...dium=copy_link

----------


## Restingvoice

> Not sure if this is new details on the Nightwing movie
> https://www.instagram.com/p/CQ5_vjCN...dium=copy_link


It's new but in a different article linked on ScreenRant's report of the same quote, the movie itself is still a non priority. Chris just shares his idea because he still hopes he gets to make it.

----------


## Rac7d*

> It's new but in a different article linked on ScreenRant's report of the same quote, the movie itself is still a non priority. Chris just shares his idea because he still hopes he gets to make it.


The Dceu feels like it will wrap then rebirth after the flash next year. Remember again that Zach Snyder killed dick Grayson. The following phase for the JLD and the nee heroes batgirl, static, and blue beetle.  Particularly batgirl may give us a sense of how McKay can bring about Nightwing into films

----------


## Avi

210610972_403156964334415_2261922180170085023_n.jpg

From Robbi Rodriguez's Instagram. That's a big bird.

----------


## Frontier

> 210610972_403156964334415_2261922180170085023_n.jpg
> 
> From Robbi Rodriguez's Instagram. That's a big bird.


The Nightwing cycle...

----------


## Rac7d*

From recent Chris McKay interview

https://variety.com/2021/film/news/t...ng-1235011035/

*Speaking of the future, what projects are next for you?*

“Nightwing” is still a movie that I really want to do. I love the character of Dick Grayson as a young adult, becoming his own kind of superhero character. That was gonna be a father and son story and also a revenge movie, which I was really excited about because there’s a lot going on in that script. It was gonna be really primal and pared down and like a real red meat movie in the best way.

*Is it still happening?*

I don’t have a firm commitment yet, but I hope that it’s something that we can still make. It has not been a priority these days; I’m hoping that it will become the priority soon. That’d be my favorite thing to come out of all of this stuff.

----------


## Badou

Why would Nightwing be a revenge movie? I feel like that doesn't really fit the character. I thought what separates Dick and Bruce is that he resolved his desire for revenge, because of Bruce's help, and is a superhero because he enjoys it and wants to be one. That always felt like a core aspect of Nightwing's character.

----------


## Frontier

Kind of reminds me of Dick in the Titans show.

----------


## WonderNight

Could be someone after Nightwing for revenge and not nightwing as the one who wants revenge.

----------


## OWL45

It’s been shown that it wasn’t that simple of a process and he was very angry at first and had problems processing what happened much like Bruce. It was Bruce making him Robin and giving him a purpose that helped him move beyond that.

----------


## Avi

If it's early Robin days or even pre-Robin a revenge story fits, but for a Nightwing movie? Nah. 

If it is not Dick who wants revenge and more sth like what Higgins did with Dick & Jen in his last story, then it would work as a Nightwing movie, imo. But it really doesn't sound as if that is what McKay means.

McKay probably only calls it a Nightwing movie so everyone knows he means Dick not one of the other Robins.

----------


## Morgoth

It's clearly sounds like a Dick from Titans, I don't get why McKay wants to make basically the same story in his movie.
A assume there's a chance to get Dick alongside Keaton's Batman and Batgirl in the new DCEU after Flash movie, considering that McKay suddenly started talking a lot about the development of this film, although before that he said that the project was dead.

----------


## Restingvoice

> Attachment 111201
> 
> From Robbi Rodriguez's Instagram. That's a big bird.


The better to break your door down with

===

The revenge part of the movie maybe Bruce is presumed dead or something. New Order. That will cover both the father son and the revenge

----------


## Drako

Look at him saving Selina in one little scene from Space Jam:




https://twitter.com/KeremIsWhelmed/s...92474937839617

----------


## Frontier

> Look at him saving Selina in one little scene from Space Jam:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> https://twitter.com/KeremIsWhelmed/s...92474937839617


Oh wow, even Gordon is in there!

----------


## Rac7d*

> It's clearly sounds like a Dick from Titans, I don't get why McKay wants to make basically the same story in his movie.
> A assume there's a chance to get Dick alongside Keaton's Batman and Batgirl in the new DCEU after Flash movie, considering that McKay suddenly started talking a lot about the development of this film, although before that he said that the project was dead.



Dick vengeance phase is shown in flashbacks and honestly is pretty well done it explains the
The Robin we have presently

----------


## Grayson - The Dark Heir

Do you guys think Dick is just some perfect bastion of goodness? I'm confused by the reaction to the idea of a revenge movie lol, that sounds pretty par for the course for Dick honestly. Something random with a Zucco, Deathstroke, even the Rebirth era very recently gave us Dick going hard after Blockbuster and Raptor, on top of the Untouchable arc and the Judge.

Dick shouldn't be an overly edgy character obviously, but one of his defining characteristics is his anger. Or at least it was. Wolfman, Dixon, Winnick, etc., all delved into it. And again, even Seeley and Humphries went into it fairly recently. I know DC has really watered Dick down since we have to stuff all the Robins in together like they're the TMNT or the Power Rangers, but I expected Nightwing fans to be the last ones to forget stuff about him lol.

----------


## Digifiend

> Look at him saving Selina in one little scene from Space Jam:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> https://twitter.com/KeremIsWhelmed/s...92474937839617


WTF? Why are DC characters in Space Jam 2? I thought that was a Looney Tunes movie.

----------


## Rac7d*

> WTF? Why are DC characters in Space Jam 2? I thought that was a Looney Tunes movie.


It’s a Warner bros movie

----------


## Rakiduam

> Do you guys think Dick is just some perfect bastion of goodness?
> l.


So tired of this argument, every time somene point a plot sounds out of charater the answer is "Dick is not perfect bastion of goodness" "he has a temper"

Whatever, no reason to get worked up for something that is never going to happen or is going to end as a tv movie. It can't be worse than Titans anyway, even if is the one of the more tired plots on comics. It's not like DC is aiming to originality these days.

----------


## Badou

> Do you guys think Dick is just some perfect bastion of goodness? I'm confused by the reaction to the idea of a revenge movie lol, that sounds pretty par for the course for Dick honestly. Something random with a Zucco, Deathstroke, even the Rebirth era very recently gave us Dick going hard after Blockbuster and Raptor, on top of the Untouchable arc and the Judge.
> 
> Dick shouldn't be an overly edgy character obviously, but one of his defining characteristics is his anger. Or at least it was. Wolfman, Dixon, Winnick, etc., all delved into it. And again, even Seeley and Humphries went into it fairly recently. I know DC has really watered Dick down since we have to stuff all the Robins in together like they're the TMNT or the Power Rangers, but I expected Nightwing fans to be the last ones to forget stuff about him lol.


But none of those stories were revenge ones, right? Revenge implies a real personal grudge and anger against a foe and I don't know if any Nightwing stories are like that. He has ones that are personal of course, but I don't know if they ever fall into revenge. Where you want to defeat a villain not because of what they did, or are doing now, but because of what they did against you personally. It is fine for Dick to get angry at someone, but revenge just feels more like Batman.

I kind of get it though. A Nightwing movie is tough to do because to do one properly you need to have him be Robin first to build up that dynamic between him and Batman and show how they are different, but DC doesn't have any interest in doing a proper live action Robin unfortunately. So they are probably going to try and cram everything into the Nightwing movie. It is what the Titans TV show failed at, which this movie pitch reminds me of as well. Since they had to try and retell his Robin story but when he is already an adult having retired from being a hero. Doing an adult Robin like this doesn't work as well because way too much time would have passed when Dick's parents died. So Dick would have ended up just being a copy of Bruce rather than his own character. 

The big thing that makes them different, at least to me, is that Bruce never resolved his parents' murder. So he grew up being fueled by revenge and that shaped his world view, but with Dick Bruce was there to help him resolve his parents murder with capturing Zucco and it allowed Dick to grow up not being solely driven by revenge. Bruce stopped Dick from going down the same path he did. So a revenge movie works if you are starting from the beginning of Dick's time as Robin where he is going after a Zucco maybe, but to do this kind of story when he is an adult just makes him feel like a knockoff Batman to me. 

But like I said, I get that a Nightwing movie is tough. So they are probably going to have to cram in a lot for it. Where things Dick should have already moved on from when he was Robin will have to be shown when he is already Nightwing I guess. I dunno. Also the whole Nightwing naming problem was brought up in this thread a little while ago too and I am wondering what they will do for that. I know some don't care about the Superman connection, but I like it. I mean they are doing all these crazy stories in their movies with even brining back Keaton's Batman. So to say Dick was inspired by Superman doesn't feel that difficult, but if they can't do that then I would prefer them not trying to come up with some movie original origin for the name like the Titans show tried to do.

----------


## Rac7d*

Bruno is such a blessing for this book 
5EF75E29-45F2-409E-B87D-34A5D26B0CF6.jpg

----------


## dropkickjake

re: revenge movie

Sounds like it could borrow from Robin's Reckoning, that two parter from BTaS. That could be a pretty decent starting point for source material.

----------


## Godlike13

To be honest a John Wick style movie is kind of what I’ve been hoping for. Not so much the revenge plot, but an emphasis on choreography and stunt work over big budget CGI. But if the dude has a revenge story in mind, it’s not inherently undoable with Nightwing or something. There’s no rule on what a Nightwing story has to be.

----------


## HsssH

Yeah, I just don't want him crying in the corner about his dead parents or screaming like a psychopath while chasing Zucco.

----------


## Badou

> re: revenge movie
> 
> Sounds like it could borrow from Robin's Reckoning, that two parter from BTaS. That could be a pretty decent starting point for source material.


I wish they would just start with a Robin movie. Then organically grow the character. I guess they don't want to cast another Batman for it. I mean for the Batgirl movie they had to dig up Keaton's Batman just so they didn't have to get a new one. :/

----------


## Rac7d*

> I wish they would just start with a Robin movie. Then organically grow the character. I guess they don't want to cast another Batman for it. I mean for the Batgirl movie they had to dig up Keaton's Batman just so they didn't have to get a new one. :/


In theory Robin should already be around if batgirl is starting

----------


## Frontier

I'm through trying to make sense of DC movies at this point.

----------


## Digifiend

> I wish they would just start with a Robin movie. Then organically grow the character. I guess they don't want to cast another Batman for it. I mean for the Batgirl movie they had to dig up Keaton's Batman just so they didn't have to get a new one. :/


Wait, aren't the 1990s Batman films all supposed to be the same version of the character as the 1989 one? Despite two recasts? Hence this Batgirl would be that continuity's second, after the one Alicia Silverstone played (who was called Barbara, but was NOT Barbara Gordon - the movie, of course, predates Cass's debut in the comics).

----------


## Drako

> Wait, aren't the 1990s Batman films all supposed to be the same version of the character as the 1989 one? Despite two recasts? Hence this Batgirl would be that continuity's second, after the one Alicia Silverstone played (who was called Barbara, but was NOT Barbara Gordon - the movie, of course, predates Cass's debut in the comics).


Yes, they all supposed to be continuations, hence the same Alfred. But i'm pretty sure they will erase everything that had to do with the Joel Schumacher movies.

----------


## Rac7d*

> Yes, they all supposed to be continuations, hence the same Alfred. But i'm pretty sure they will erase everything that had to do with the Joel Schumacher movies.


So no chance of Michelle phiffer returning at an aged catwoman huh

Then again a new batgirl
Means a new Robin, sorry Chris McDonnell

----------


## Drako

> So no chance of Michelle phiffer returning at an aged catwoman huh
> 
> Then again a new batgirl
> Means a new Robin, sorry Chris McDonnell


Michelle Phiffer might have a chance, cause she is from the Burton movies.
People usually hate Batman Forever and Batman & Robin.

IMO Batman Returns is worse than Batman Forever tho.

----------


## Badou

> In theory Robin should already be around if batgirl is starting


It technically is still the DCEU. So they are using Snyder's characters and world some in the Flashpoint movie. Meaning that Robin/Dick Grayson was killed by the Joker.

----------


## Rac7d*

> It technically is still the DCEU. So they are using Snyder's characters and world some in the Flashpoint movie. Meaning that Robin/Dick Grayson was killed by the Joker.


The flas comes out first and makes the batgirl movie possible. I’m hoping it undoes that

----------


## Restingvoice

> It technically is still the DCEU. So they are using Snyder's characters and world some in the Flashpoint movie. Meaning that Robin/Dick Grayson was killed by the Joker.


That's only in Snyder Cut. He's out so they can change things.

----------


## Ascended

A Nightwing film doesn't have to connect to the other movies at all anyway. Joker didn't connect to the DCEU, it was just its own thing. Nightwing could be the same, and would likely be better off for it. 

But I'm not holding my breath on it happening at all. 

If it did, somehow, get made? "Revenge" isn't the word I think of when I think "Dick's first solo film" but he's gone hard after Zucco's, Two-Face, KGBeast, and plenty of other villains when it got personal. Dick's the "nice" one, but people forget he still has an edge and can be as brutal and single minded as Bruce on his worst days. That's not Dick's normal setting but it's not beyond his character. It's not the direction I'd personally take but it's not out of bounds.

----------


## Frontier

I think people are putting more stock in DC's movie continuity and connectivity than WB are.

----------


## Rac7d*

> A Nightwing film doesn't have to connect to the other movies at all anyway. Joker didn't connect to the DCEU, it was just its own thing. Nightwing could be the same, and would likely be better off for it. 
> 
> But I'm not holding my breath on it happening at all. 
> 
> If it did, somehow, get made? "Revenge" isn't the word I think of when I think "Dick's first solo film" but he's gone hard after Zucco's, Two-Face, KGBeast, and plenty of other villains when it got personal. Dick's the "nice" one, but people forget he still has an edge and can be as brutal and single minded as Bruce on his worst days. That's not Dick's normal setting but it's not beyond his character. It's not the direction I'd personally take but it's not out of bounds.


Yes it does, without Robin, the first sidekick the rest of the Gothamverse will never be born, we need him to kick things off so
Jason Tim Damian duke  TRUE CASS Stephanie Kate luke  and etc can appear. I dont know if I care about a true DCEU, but the gothamverse should be simple.

----------


## Restingvoice

Ah right. They did say The DCEU will be more loose moving forward with the Matt Reeves Batman movie being more like an Earth One or Two thing separate from the Snyderverse

----------


## Digifiend

> So no chance of Michelle phiffer returning at an aged catwoman huh
> 
> Then again a new batgirl
> Means a new Robin, sorry Chris McDonnell


It's Chris *O'*Donnell.



> Michelle Phiffer might have a chance, cause she is from the Burton movies.
> People usually hate Batman Forever and Batman & Robin.
> 
> IMO Batman Returns is worse than Batman Forever tho.


The reason she wouldn't be back as Catwoman is because she plays another comic book character now - Michelle plays Janet Van Dyne in the Ant-Man movies, the third of which is currently in production. Has anyone had DC and Marvel roles on the go at the same time?

----------


## Rac7d*

> It's Chris *O'*Donnell.
> The reason she wouldn't be back as Catwoman is because she plays another comic book character now - Michelle plays Janet Van Dyne in the Ant-Man movies, the third of which is currently in production. Has anyone had DC and Marvel roles on the go at the same time?


 Yeah that one guy in wandavision who is also in aquaman
Jimmy woo, in fact he is in antman as well.

----------


## CPSparkles

I have no issues with a Nightwing revenge movie. I just need a movie with Dick Grayson as Nightwing kicking arse.

----------


## Frontier

> Yeah that one guy in wandavision who is also in aquaman
> Jimmy woo, in fact he is in antman as well.


Djimon Honsou has been in both movies as well. 

Keaton was Vulture and is coming back to play Bruce.

----------


## Rac7d*

> I have no issues with a Nightwing revenge movie. I just need a movie with Dick Grayson as Nightwing kicking arse.


Agreed he is long overdue

----------


## Ascended

> Yes it does, without Robin, the first sidekick the rest of the Gothamverse will never be born, we need him to kick things off so
> Jason Tim Damian duke  TRUE CASS Stephanie Kate luke  and etc can appear. I don’t know if I care about a true DCEU, but the gothamverse should be simple.


Eh, you only need to establish that Bruce has taken on partners to get most of those guys started. We don't need a trilogy of films with (just an example but this applies to most of the junior Bats) Jason before we can understand Tim's story, all we need to know is that Robin died, Batman went dark, and Tim decided to become the next Robin to save Batman from himself. And that can be taken care of within the first few minutes of a movie (or made the whole plot, depending on what you want your narrative to be, which is my point). 

Consider BvS and the empty Robin costume in the Cave; we didn't need several films with Dick in the role for that moment to carry a impact; just seeing the vandalized costume tells us everything the plot needs us to know; there was a Robin, he was killed, and Bruce didn't take it well. 

Don't get me wrong, I wouldn't be against a Gothamverse film series, and seeing characters worked in over time and given the space to develop and grow, like a miniature MCU. But for my money, the last thing WB should focus on is a interconnected movie-verse when most of their films aren't worth watching in the first place. Give me a quality film that stands on its own, not a crappy one that ties into a bunch of other crappy films.

----------


## Rac7d*

> Eh, you only need to establish that Bruce has taken on partners to get most of those guys started. We don't need a trilogy of films with (just an example but this applies to most of the junior Bats) Jason before we can understand Tim's story, all we need to know is that Robin died, Batman went dark, and Tim decided to become the next Robin to save Batman from himself. And that can be taken care of within the first few minutes of a movie (or made the whole plot, depending on what you want your narrative to be, which is my point). 
> 
> Consider BvS and the empty Robin costume in the Cave; we didn't need several films with Dick in the role for that moment to carry a impact; just seeing the vandalized costume tells us everything the plot needs us to know; there was a Robin, he was killed, and Bruce didn't take it well. 
> 
> Don't get me wrong, I wouldn't be against a Gothamverse film series, and seeing characters worked in over time and given the space to develop and grow, like a miniature MCU. But for my money, the last thing WB should focus on is a interconnected movie-verse when most of their films aren't worth watching in the first place. Give me a quality film that stands on its own, not a crappy one that ties into a bunch of other crappy films.


I disagree, i think Dick the first dying would keep bruce at a distance, dark and forever in his "I work alone" mode
Dick has to be a success. Why would bruce take another partner. I dont see Bruce Wayne taking a new robin after Damian, another batman may but not him. Not after his 10 year old son was gunned down in the suit, that even worse then what happend to jason.

----------


## AmiMizuno

I mean will a Nightwing movie actually hope Nightwing become bigger? Like Dc needs to expand him more?

----------


## Rac7d*

> I mean will a Nightwing movie actually hope Nightwing become bigger? Like Dc needs to expand him more?


Pretty much, that all thats left for him to do is hit a big screen.

Look at his book sales 
269C5C08-BB98-46F7-B36D-C6C03BAF3837.jpg

----------


## Lal

> Pretty much, that all thats left for him to do is hit a big screen.
> 
> Look at his book sales 
> 269C5C08-BB98-46F7-B36D-C6C03BAF3837.jpg


Great!
And the book sold out, so it probably would have been higher if there were more copies.

----------


## WonderNight

> I mean will a Nightwing movie actually hope Nightwing become bigger? Like Dc needs to expand him more?


Hopefully he can become bigger, but if Nightwing gonna be limited to the gothamverse what would be the point? Like he's already Batman's right hand man, his No.2 so what would change. Maybe more merchandise but status and story wise what would change?

All in all I do hope Nightwing becomes a much bigger Ip.

----------


## dietrich

> Pretty much, that all thats left for him to do is hit a big screen.
> 
> Look at his book sales 
> 269C5C08-BB98-46F7-B36D-C6C03BAF3837.jpg


WB/DC slack off so much on good things. It's frustrating.

----------


## Rac7d*

> Hopefully he can become bigger, but if Nightwing gonna be limited to the gothamverse what would be the point? Like he's already Batman's right hand man, his No.2 so what would change. Maybe more merchandise but status and story wise what would change?
> 
> All in all I do hope Nightwing becomes a much bigger Ip.


I will never understand how Gotham seem like a limit
When all of its properties are more beloved then anything and everything else in dc. Bat characters are guaranteed presence where in DC you get lost.  With the new big 4 stepping up I don’t see him having as large a presence in the bigger DCU, however since the new Batman is unknown to the bat-family it’s going to be vytal that Dick stands next to him at the top.

----------


## WonderNight

> I will never understand how Gotham seem like a limit
> When all of its properties are more beloved then anything and everything else in dc. Bat characters are guaranteed presence where in DC you get lost.  With the new big 4 stepping up I don’t see him having as large a presence in the bigger DCU, however since the new Batman is unknown to the bat-family it’s going to be vytal that Dick stands next to him at the top.


I will never understand how it doesn't.

Than Nightwing as a consept is a complete failure and dick shouldn't have stopped being Robin in the first place. Going back to Nightwing might be the worst thing to ever happen to Dick's character. But whatever fans want what they want.

----------


## Se7en

Pretty much. If anything it's often poorly utilized.

Having said that they should've kept him as Grayson as that was an amazing evolution of his journey unfortunately Nightwing will always feel like a step down.

----------


## Frontier

Nightwing is cooler to me than Grayson, but to each their own...

----------


## Badou

Grayson was just too short a run. There was so much left to explore in that spy world and it sucks that it ended so early. King and Seeley only were on for 17 issues I think? Which is less than the whole Ric Grayson arc. They had plans for it being like 50+ issues. They were also setting up the Spy Wars arc which to me was the single most exciting Dick Grayson story in concept since the New 52 started, but it got its legs cut out from under it for Rebirth. It was so disappointing to see. I'd also would have loved to see the Grayson series continue without the dumb pretending to be dead and the world knowing his identity stories hanging over him. As both were completely pointless in the end. They could have just handwaved them away like they did at the end of Grayson anyway and then started fresh. 

Grayson and Morrison's Batman and Robin were the two series I felt like were way too short. I think Morrison only wrote like 16 issues for Batman and Robin before leaving. I always would have liked to see him continue on that series but as something separate from his Batman epic and more standalone that could have sold better indefinitely. Since while I really enjoyed his B&R series it does suffer from being just a piece in his Batman epic where he was trying to set up a lot of overarching Bruce stuff in it while also writing Dick and Damian, which I think is a reason why you don't see his B&R series selling much these days over a more standalone series like a Black Mirror.

----------


## WonderNight

> Nightwing is cooler to me than Grayson, but to each their own...


Nightwing is the cooler name and costume but Grayson is the cooler consept and status. There's like a dozen Nightwing's in the Gothamverse, give him his space to both have and be something other than "Former Robin".

Young Justice Nightwing is the perfect mix of Nightwing and Grayson.

----------


## Restingvoice

> I will never understand how Gotham seem like a limit
> When all of its properties are more beloved then anything and everything else in dc. Bat characters are guaranteed presence where in DC you get lost.  With the new big 4 stepping up I dont see him having as large a presence in the bigger DCU, however since the new Batman is unknown to the bat-family its going to be vytal that Dick stands next to him at the top.


Marketing wise Batfam is beneficial
Creativity wise it's limiting because they're forced to be in the same type of story for branding: Street level detective stuffs

There was a discussion about this in the Red Hood thread as well. Some, including me, like the street-level stuff because that's my personal taste, but others like the metahuman teamup, sci-fi and mystical adventures of RHATO because it differentiates Jason from the other Batfam members and makes his world larger.

----------


## WonderNight

> Marketing wise Batfam is beneficial
> Creativity wise it's limiting because they're forced to be in the same type of story for branding: Street level detective stuffs
> 
> There was a discussion about this in the Red Hood thread as well. Some, including me, like the street-level stuff because that's my personal taste, but others like the metahuman teamup, sci-fi and mystical adventures of RHATO because it differentiates Jason from the other Batfam members and makes his world larger.


I don't get why dick's solo can't be set in the larger dcu but do the street level stuff in the bat events, bat team ups and bat team books.

----------


## Rakiduam

> Marketing wise Batfam is beneficial
> Creativity wise it's limiting because they're forced to be in the same type of story for branding: Street level detective stuffs
> 
> There was a discussion about this in the Red Hood thread as well. Some, including me, like the street-level stuff because that's my personal taste, but others like the metahuman teamup, sci-fi and mystical adventures of RHATO because it differentiates Jason from the other Batfam members and makes his world larger.


Street level is not the problem through, you can take the concept and still make it bigger, Morrison did it O'Neil did it. Batwoman and the Question had mithical aspects. Even Gotham Academy had a nice blend of everything.

The problem is not the genre, the problem is the pre concept of the creatives in control.

----------


## Frontier

> I don't get why dick's solo can't be set in the larger dcu but do the street level stuff in the bat events, bat team ups and bat team books.


Well, ostensibly there's no reason he can't do both, although I guess that's what the Titans books are for too.

----------


## AHRNIHAL

Can someone tell me how can I delete my account?

----------


## Restingvoice

> I don't get why dick's solo can't be set in the larger dcu but do the street level stuff in the bat events, bat team ups and bat team books.


Oh they can

It's just that with character as old as Dick there are certain things he's defined by and his fanbase built by, and so they want to keep them by keeping what drew them in the first place. 

(Discarding the option of him being Batman with Damian as Robin because that will require other consideration)

That is whenever Nightwing has a solo, it's always in a city, with Bludhaven being the most defining, while the larger DCU setting happens in Titans, so Bludhaven it is. 

They tried to be bold with Grayson, but they went too far out the border of familiarity, also it happened during a controversial line, and after that they're scared. 

Technically Seeley balance it out, but he also got the order that it has to be Bludhaven, so he quit. 

You need a guy who are able to do all of them. His history including Bludhaven and also wanna try something new and also know not to venture too far out of the familiar for fans who like their comfy place.

----------


## HsssH

> Since while I really enjoyed his B&R series it does suffer from being just a piece in his Batman epic where he was trying to set up a lot of overarching Bruce stuff in it while also writing Dick and Damian, which I think is a reason why you don't see his B&R series selling much these days over a more standalone series like a Black Mirror.


Yeah, I think that these days if you are buying Morrison's Batman then you are buying 3 ombinuses that collect everything. And Dick as Batman is sadly just a short blip in that years long epic.

----------


## Aahz

But was Grayson really "larger DCU"?

It was a different corner to play in, but it is not like he was involved in any major event there or went up against any big established villains. And Spyral it self is actually something that came from Morrisons run on Batman.

And the only hero outside of the "Batverse" he had any interactions with was Midnighter, who is not exactly a big character.

----------


## Frontier

> But was Grayson really "larger DCU"?
> 
> It was a different corner to play in, but it is not like he was involved in any major event there or went up against any big established villains. And Spyral it self is actually something that came from Morrisons run on Batman.
> 
> And the only hero outside of the "Batverse" he had any interactions with was Midnighter, who is not exactly a big character.


And he still showed up for Bat-Events like Endgame and B&R Eternal.

----------


## dietrich

Grayson to me felt like Dick was playing in an entirely different corner of the DCU.

it doesn't matter that how big Midnighter is or that he has shown up for later stories. It doesn't matter that Spyral was something that Morrison touched on It still felt new and refreshing and a world away from Gotham and the usually Bat/nightwing typical stories. 

The world/workings of Spyral that were presented in Grayson felt and looked nothing like Gotham. 

It felt like Dick was a part of the larger DCU which is just as important as him delving into the greater DCU.

Dick doesn't need to be part of any important events or go up against established villians.  The new character's and a not so huge Bad guy still worked.

he doesn't need to go up against Trigon, Deathstroke or some Magical mystical deity for the grayson to invoke that feeling of 'the larger DCU'

----------


## WonderNight

> Grayson to me felt like Dick was playing in an entirely different corner of the DCU.
> 
> it doesn't matter that how big Midnighter is or that he has shown up for later stories. It doesn't matter that Spyral was something that Morrison touched on It still felt new and refreshing and a world away from Gotham and the usually Bat/nightwing typical stories. 
> 
> The world/workings of Spyral that were presented in Grayson felt and looked nothing like Gotham. 
> 
> It felt like Dick was a part of the larger DCU which is just as important as him delving into the greater DCU.
> 
> Dick doesn't need to be part of any important events or go up against established villians.  The new character's and a not so huge Bad guy still worked.
> ...


Exactly! Nightwing in the larger DCU doesn't mean he's involved in every big thing or the center of the universe.

The larger DCU for nightwing is giving him a bigger corner of his own OUTSIDE of the Gotham and the Batverse alone as a SOLO hero and I.p.

Grayson never looked or felt like just another bat book! It felt like dick had his own sandbox that gave his solo a different role than Batman had. 

Batman was bruce fighting for and in his city, Grayson was about Dick having adventures around the crazy world that is the dcu. It didn't stop him from being in the Batverse but it does allow him his own corner that's not Gotham or its clone down the street.

Right now Nightwing is no different than any other typical Gotham batbook or hero. Than fans cry about why WB and the powers that be don't give a crap about him as a solo character.

----------


## Rac7d*

What did Grayson ever do in the larger DCU? He visited starfire on vacation, a version of Superman who is long dead,
I dont remember him doing anything in the greater dcu.   Is SPYRAL even being used by anyone at the moment?

Ive said it before DC doesnt make use of a Shield type organization the way Marvel does
He cant be the black widow/ winter soldier with quips without that.

I dont even know what going on in the larger DC now
Who would want after Hero in crisis anyways

----------


## Godlike13

Greater DCU might not be the right term exactly, but the point is about expanding his mythos.

----------


## Rac7d*

> Greater DCU might not be the right term exactly, but the point is about expanding his mythos.


 So the branch to fall off the tree and bloom and new one?

----------


## Frontier

This makes me curious. What did Azrael do during his solo book?

----------


## Godlike13

> So the branch to fall off the tree and bloom and new one?


More or less. Along with having him do stuff that seems greater and bigger scale.

----------


## Aahz

> It doesn't matter that Spyral was something that Morrison touched on It still felt new and refreshing and a world away from Gotham and the usually Bat/nightwing typical stories


I don't dispute the "new and refershing part" (even if it wasn't my cup of tea).
But it was imo neither really larger DCU nor really outside of the Bat franchise.

And being part of the Batfrachise usually doesn't prevent a character from having world wide adventures. Jason and Damian have pretty frequently adventures somewhere else in their books. Same goes for the pre flashpoint Birds of Prey.




> Is SPYRAL even being used by anyone at the moment?


I think it was destroyed by Leviathan, like all other spy organisations.

----------


## WonderNight

> What did Grayson ever do in the larger DCU? He visited starfire on vacation, a version of Superman who is long dead,
> I don’t remember him doing anything in the greater dcu.   Is SPYRAL even being used by anyone at the moment?
> 
> I’ve said it before DC doesn’t make use of a Shield type organization the way Marvel does
> He can’t be the black widow/ winter soldier with quips without that.
> 
> I don’t even know what going on in the larger DC now
> Who would want after Hero in crisis anyways


What Grayson did in the greater DCU was give Dick his own corner of it, a corner of his own.

I'm not asking for Grayson to return exactly, what I'm hoping for is for Nightwing to take the things that worked for with Grayson and bring them into Nightwing for a better more unique Nightwing that isn't just happy Batman.

The nest step for nightwing character is to build his own mythos and not just be a small and redundant part of Batman's.

----------


## Rac7d*

> What Grayson did in the greater DCU was give Dick his own corner of it, a corner of his own.
> 
> I'm not asking for Grayson to return exactly, what I'm hoping for is for Nightwing to take the things that worked for with Grayson and bring them into Nightwing for a better more unique Nightwing that isn't just happy Batman.
> 
> The nest step for nightwing character is to build his own mythos and not just be a small and redundant part of Batman's.


How does that work without Spyral?
I need a pitch cuz I am not visualizing

----------


## Drako

> I don't dispute the "new and refershing part" (even if it wasn't my cup of tea).
> But it was imo neither really larger DCU nor really outside of the Bat franchise.


It wasn't outside of the bat franchise indeed.
Bruce appeared regularly before he lost his memories and even after he stop being Batman the Grayson book still got dragged into a Bat crossover.

----------


## Aahz

> What Grayson did in the greater DCU was give Dick his own corner of it, a corner of his own.


Technically Blüdheaven is also a corner of is own, where he has (or had) his own support cast and villains, and where Batman rarely shows up (iirc he was only there once).

Problem is that each new writer who comes in ignores (or destroys) most of what the previous one did, which makes it hard to really build his mythos around that, but that might also happend with Grayson.

----------


## Frontier

Now that I think about it, Helena being the female lead makes it even more of a Bat-book since she's ostensibly a Bat-Family character.

----------


## Drako

Nightwing from Robin #5



https://twitter.com/GlebMelnikov8/st...120518/photo/1

----------


## Vordan

> What did Grayson ever do in the larger DCU? He visited starfire on vacation, a version of Superman who is long dead,
> I dont remember him doing anything in the greater dcu.   Is SPYRAL even being used by anyone at the moment?
> 
> *Ive said it before DC doesnt make use of a Shield type organization the way Marvel does
> He cant be the black widow/ winter soldier with quips without that.
> *
> I dont even know what going on in the larger DC now
> Who would want after Hero in crisis anyways


Because SHIELD has Nick Fury and Black Widow. None of DCs spy organizations have characters like that, characters the general audience know about and want to read. Dick *could* have been that, they couldve moved him to ARGUS or whatever and kept him in that role. They just chose not to.

----------


## Rac7d*

Finally this year, Dick Grayson is himself, he has his book
He is starring in Titans in august and Young justice in October
everything is going to align for him

RIP Robson Rocha
thank you for this
image0.jpg

----------


## WonderNight

> Because SHIELD has Nick Fury and Black Widow. None of DC’s spy organizations have characters like that, characters the general audience know about and want to read. Dick *could* have been that, they could’ve moved him to ARGUS or whatever and kept him in that role. They just chose not to.


Yep but people just seem to what Bludhaven and batfamily and Gotham so its whatever, like I said I don't care anymore. Nightwing's character growth is done.

It's fine like what you like. Just know what comes with that. Just one question though, outside of Dick himself what's interesting about Nightwing in Bludhaven? It's an empty sandbox with nothing outside of Dick himself. I guess as long as it looks and feels like Grayson and he's running around with babs and other batfam it's all good.

----------


## Frontier

> Because SHIELD has Nick Fury and Black Widow. None of DCs spy organizations have characters like that, characters the general audience know about and want to read. Dick *could* have been that, they couldve moved him to ARGUS or whatever and kept him in that role. They just chose not to.


Well, maybe not as recognizable, but Waller, Kind Faraday, Nemesis, etc.

----------


## Rac7d*

> Well, maybe not as recognizable, but Waller, Kind Faraday, Nemesis, etc.


During Grayson run I had hoped he would run into Waller 
Forget Rick Flagg he would made a great operative, but that’s shot is missed
Their are no organization and if their were they don’t really compare to bat inc anyway where Nightwing is already the 1 OP

----------


## Vordan

> Well, maybe not as recognizable, but Waller, Kind Faraday, Nemesis, etc.


Waller yes, the rest no. Come on, you really think a casual on the street would know who the hell Faraday or Nemesis are if you showed them a pic?

----------


## Frontier

> Waller yes, the rest no. Come on, you really think a casual on the street would know who the hell Faraday or Nemesis are if you showed them a pic?


No, but they haven't been used as prominently either, although Faraday was a pretty big part of the New Frontier movie.

I'm kind of surprised Director Bones hasn't made the jump yet.

----------


## Rac7d*

> No, but they haven't been used as prominently either, although Faraday was a pretty big part of the New Frontier movie.
> 
> I'm kind of surprised Director Bones hasn't made the jump yet.


Suicide squad has should have had a stable home base of character since the teams was always up to die in theory
Another ball dropped in DCs espionage world.

----------


## HsssH

Problem with Faraday or Waller is that they are sitting behind the desk. People like Fury and BW because they get out there and kick ass.

----------


## Badou

And even a Waller mostly feels like an inept bureaucrat in stories. She doesn't really come across as some puppet master pulling the strings of superheroes and villains behind a government desk. It doesn't feel like anything she does even works. 

DC did try and have Steve Trevor be involved in their spy organizations with him being a big part of ARGUS with the New 52, but I have no idea what his character is even doing now.

----------


## Aahz

> Forget Rick Flagg he would made a great operative, but thats shot is missed


I don't think that Dick could work as a suicide squad member (or even the leader) on the long run, and keep the character intact.

Do you see him blowing up the head of one of the squad members, stand by when one of the squad member kills (or eats) some of their opponents or even leading them on a assassination mission?

If you go by previous stories, even one of "team mates" getting killed would very likely drive him completely over the edge.

----------


## RedQueen

Being Nightwing, while doesn't involve him being disconnected from the batfamily, I don't agree that there aren't more stories to tell and also they can be told differently.

Narratively you can't have a bookend to character in comics. Nightwing is Dick Grayson and Dick Grayson is Nightwing. And sure you can still take him out of Gotham to do that. Chucking some new superhero name on him just does not make sense. 

Dick just doesn't kill, so assassin is out unless we want a Jason ripoff.

Titans haven't been relevant since they were teens. They're more just discount justice league (bad terminology but conveys my point). Too many characters if you want consistent Nightwing content.

Suicide Squad would honestly again just be making him to another version of Jason knockoff.

Trouble with trying to get to edgy or antihero, puts him into Jason territory.

Spy was good but then people were complaining about on here that the Batfam didn't care enough that he was gone and the world  just kind of forgot about him after he "died". See being a Spy takes him out of the superhero game in terms of recognition and that's what I feel like I see a lot on here. They want Dick to be the most important person on the planet, but then he's a new setting and then suddenly it's like people are shocked the batfam and Titans moved on.

People talk about wanting Dick to have a new ballgame but can't seem to cope that usually involves removing the narrative perks Nightwing has.

----------


## Aahz

The thing is spy is technically not so far away from Suicide Squad. And he could run into as much stuff that doesn't work with his moral code at Spyral as he could with the Suicide Squad.

During "Grayson" they just never really went to hard into that direction, and had him really sent on mission were he had to do shady stuff (one reason why it didn't really worked for me).

I mean Dick as Spy could work, but not for a shady organisation like Spyral or Task Force X (at least on the long run). 

For that you need a "the end justifies the means" kind of thinking, at that simply doesn't fit Dick.

----------


## RedQueen

> The thing is spy is technically not so far away from Suicide Squad. And he could run into as much stuff that doesn't work with his moral code at Spyral as he could with the Suicide Squad.
> 
> During "Grayson" they just never really went to hard into that direction, and had him really sent on mission were he had to do shady stuff (one reason why it didn't really worked for me).
> 
> I mean Dick as Spy could work, but not for a shady organisation like Spyral or Task Force X (at least on the long run). 
> 
> For that you need a "the end justifies the means" kind of thinking, at that simply doesn't fit Dick.


I agree. I'm not against Dick having a new status quo, but having an entire new mythos around him where his character has to change dramatically to suit it....would he still be Dick Grayson anymore?

----------


## Godlike13

That was kind of the entire point. Fitting square pegs into square holes isn’t any fun. The dichotomy is part of what made it work. Would Dick change, or would he change Spyral, or would it be a bit of both, ect. Pointing out how it doesn’t fit him, your missing the point. 

Btw “people” are made up of different individuals. Some people want new ballgame, some want the fan favorite stuff, and some roll with anything as long as it’s decent enough. It’s not a catch all. Grayson wasn’t even a victim of reader wants, but DC’s struggles at the time and their Rebirth initiative. Ric was the most rejected direction he’s ever seen, reaching new lows month after month, yet they kept it going regardless of what people wanted. Longer then Grayson. With Dick it’s about what is most convenient for the people in the DC office.

----------


## Aahz

> That was kind of the entire point. Fitting square pegs into square holes isnt any fun. The dichotomy is part of what made it work. Would Dick change, or would he change Spyral, or would it be a bit of both, ect. Pointing out how it doesnt fit him, your missing the point.


To me the point is that it simply not something that would on the long run, him being in being in an organisation that doesn't fit him can be interesting for a time, but is simply nothing that could work as a permanent status quo (opposed to being the protector of Blüdheaven).

----------


## Godlike13

It might be your opinion that it wouldn’t be sustainable but that certainly wasn’t point behind the idea or story. No one didn’t understand that working for a questionable Spy organization didn’t appear as the character’s comfort zone. It’s not something that needs to be pointed out as that was part of the very basis behind the idea.

----------


## Rac7d*

> It might be your opinion that it wouldn’t be sustainable but that certainly wasn’t point behind the idea or story. No one didn’t understand that working for a questionable Spy organization didn’t appear as the character’s comfort zone. It’s not something that needs to be pointed out as that was part of the very basis behind the idea.


What needs to be pointed out is that a return to Grayson is both not sustainable or retainable without more work then anyone is willing to put into it.

----------


## Avi

> That was kind of the entire point. Fitting square pegs into square holes isnt any fun. The dichotomy is part of what made it work. Would Dick change, or would he change Spyral, or would it be a bit of both, ect. Pointing out how it doesnt fit him, your missing the point. 
> 
> Btw people are made up of different individuals. Some people want new ballgame, some want the fan favorite stuff, and some roll with anything as long as its decent enough. Its not a catch all. Grayson wasnt even a victim of reader wants, but DCs struggles at the time and their Rebirth initiative. Ric was the most rejected direction hes ever seen, reaching new lows month after month, yet they kept it going regardless of what people wanted. Longer then Grayson. *With Dick its about what is most convenient for the people in the DC office.*


Yep. Either out of the way or as Bruce's diligent foot soldier, who doesn't stir up that much drama and can be used to cause Bruce some quick man pain if needed. And now that he is back as a lapdog he can of course be used to promote other Bats.




> Being Nightwing, while doesn't involve him being disconnected from the batfamily, I don't agree that there aren't more stories to tell and also they can be told differently.
> 
> Narratively you can't have a bookend to character in comics. Nightwing is Dick Grayson and Dick Grayson is Nightwing. And sure you can still take him out of Gotham to do that. Chucking some new superhero name on him just does not make sense. 
> 
> Dick just doesn't kill, so assassin is out unless we want a Jason ripoff.
> 
> Titans haven't been relevant since they were teens. They're more just discount justice league (bad terminology but conveys my point). Too many characters if you want consistent Nightwing content.
> 
> Suicide Squad would honestly again just be making him to another version of Jason knockoff.
> ...


It's not that they forgot. It's that the connections either didn't exist or the bats never cared except for Barbara in one Batgirl Issue. And that's on editorial. They could have easily published Tynion's NW #30 as a special while keeping Seeley & Kings #30. It would have sold and been an easy fix for most people. That's why it's brought up to this day.

Also, Dick can't lose recognition if he got non. Dick didn't have hero recognition or connections to heroes in the New52. That's what Grayson changed. It got players in and the second the title ended, it was a fast decline even under Seeley. And where is this hero recognition right now? Except for some performative "He's an OG Titan", Dick doesn't have recognition except to be belittled. The only one who pulled him into a story thanks to recognition was Hawkgirl during the JL Death Metal tie-in. Future State gives him recognition, other than that I don't see it.

Dick doesn't have to be the most important person on the planet. It's about the hero recognition you are talking about that simply doesn't exist the way it did before. Of course, people are pissed about that. 

-----------

On that note, Dick doesn't even have recognition in Blüdhaven so why have any weight to throw around on a grander level? 

Dick isn't the center of Blüdhaven. His own city. Because there simply is nothing in Blüdhaven and as Aahz has mentioned that's on the writers. There is nothing that holds emotional weight in Blüdhaven and instead of bringing some old stuff back and/or adapting it, Blüdhaven has an apartment filled with Bats and a puppy that's memeable.

Grayson wasn't the first time Dick got involved with the shadier side of the DCU, Dick has ended up there for one reason or another from time to time. Heck, even FS TT did the thing. 

I don't think an agent or a spy has to kill. Not in the DCU. Granted, with everything canon Dick getting recruited could be a fun way to explore "killed the Joker that one time". Either way, a spy has to be competent so that might be the deal-breaker. And ultimately Agent Nightwing should be his own agent.

Not that I need Dick to be an agent. I would just like to see him have his own thing, and what we've currently got isn't that. And I do blame the close Bats/Gotham connection for that because in the last years whenever he got room to breathe and developed connections (Chicago, Grayson, Humphries, a lot of Seeley's stuff), the Bats were more in the background than the foreground and most times that was because of physical distance.

I'm still for the circus solution. Put him in there. Let him travel and make his own "Gaggle of Geese" and slam dunk some villains.

----------


## Badou

I thought he worked well in Spyral. I don't get this idea that he had to become a different character to be a spy. The whole point of the series was to show that despite being put in a new situation, and having to face these different challenges, it didn't change who he is. He was still the same superhero he always was even if he wasn't wearing a costume. That was the main theme of the series. You got to see his character grow and learn that. Then by the end he accomplished his mission of uncovering Spyral from within and Helena, Tiger, and himself were the last 3 left standing basically. The organization was then left open for Dick to take Spyral and mold it into whatever he wanted it to be. Bendis destroyed all the spy organizations for his awful Leviathan story, so I have no idea what Spyral even is now.

Also it is worth noting that at the beginning of Grayson the plan was that Dick and Bruce would be working together I think, but then Snyder had his Batman story where Bruce lost his memories. So Dick was cut off from working with Bruce. The person that told him to pretend to be dead and go into Spyral immediately was written out of the story. It didn't prevent the story from still being good, as the fun was seeing Dick interact with new characters like a Midnighter or Helena (who was basically a brand new character except for her name) while being thrown into a new situation. Plus because of the dumb public identity thing from Forever Evil Dick was handicapped from interacting with other characters more while in Spyral. Since they had him be a spy partially to get him out of the way.

There was so much potential with Spyral where it could have become something more established and expanded Dick's influence and presence in the wider DCU while trying out some new stories rather than having him spin his wheels in Bludhaven or on the Titans, which we know will never lead to anything more. They are dead ends that breed stagnation for Dick's character. At least in the comics. Just look at the Teen Titans Academy book. They did this whole Red X story, which they even brought over the cartoon origin where Dick created the identity, but Dick is completely useless in the book. Just like he has been in basically every Titans story since the NTT era. 

Dick is tethered to these roles of "boring/generic Titans leader" or "Batman-lite in Bludhaven" that prevents writers from doing more with him and why we can't get more stories like Grayson I think. Where a writer just decides to throw Dick in some crazy situation for a nice run over just defaulting to something boring and generic again. I get some like those generic stories, and they are safe sellers, but I feel like I keep reading the same thing over and over with them. A Roy in Infinite Frontier just got a Black Lantern Ring and despite not liking his character these kind of new and unexpected situations are what I prefer for stories over a Dick running on top of the roofs of Bludhaven again. DC hinted at all these bigger DCU plots, which of course like always Dick was absent from all of them, and I really think that when Dick is trapped in these boring roles writers just have no interest in doing more with him or they even forget about him.

I don't think Dick and Wally have even spoken one word to each other since Wally returned. I might be the only person on the internet to even bring this up, but to me that matters because it shows how DC views Dick's character and his level of influence. Do they view him as someone important enough to show the two reuniting on panel again after they both went thought these awful things? The answer was no. Which speaks to how DC looks at Dick's wider DCU influence and his relationships as a whole, which are horribly underdeveloped. They are awful. It really doesn't feel like Dick has any friends outside of Babs. Which is why I will always prefer a Grayson type series over what we have now because I think they allow Dick the opportunity for growth and expand his influence when we know the generic Titans and Bludhaven stuff never will.

----------


## RedQueen

I don't have a problem with Dick being in a new environment, just a lot of people seemingly want to turn him into discount Jason which was ironic considering it was the reverse a few years back.

Also agree that Dick being in Titans is such a waste. Does nothing for the character and has to share panel time with like a billion other characters. I think the only people who really read it Starfire/Nightwing shippers tbh. That seems what anyone seems to hone in on in Titans titles.




> There was so much potential with Spyral where it could have become something more established and expanded Dick's influence and presence in the wider DCU while trying out some new stories rather than having him spin his wheels in Bludhaven or on the Titans, which we know will never lead to anything more.



I feel like Spyral was the healthiest change from being Nightwing. I definitely feel like the spyworld in DC is very untapped. A non lethal spy would be pretty interesting. 
And sidenote, when Birds of Prey in it's early days had a few spy like missions, not saying he has to be BoP of course but the idea of a stealth mission based team would be cool without the Suicide Squad narrative etc

----------


## Rac7d*

> I don't have a problem with Dick being in a new environment, just a lot of people seemingly want to turn him into discount Jason which was ironic considering it was the reverse a few years back.
> 
> Also agree that Dick being in Titans is such a waste. Does nothing for the character and has to share panel time with like a billion other characters. I think the only people who really read it Starfire/Nightwing shippers tbh. That seems what anyone seems to hone in on in Titans titles.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I feel like Spyral was the healthiest change from being Nightwing. I definitely feel like the spyworld in DC is very untapped. A non lethal spy would be pretty interesting. 
> And sidenote, when Birds of Prey in it's early days had a few spy like missions, not saying he has to be BoP of course but the idea of a stealth mission based team would be cool without the Suicide Squad narrative etc


Your in luck Babs new team will Proably go in that direction 
That was how birds of prey would operate, her girls being agents of sorts

----------


## Avi

> I don't have a problem with Dick being in a new environment, just a lot of people seemingly want to turn him into discount Jason which was ironic considering it was the reverse a few years back.
> 
> Also agree that Dick being in Titans is such a waste. Does nothing for the character and has to share panel time with like a billion other characters. I think the only people who really read it Starfire/Nightwing shippers tbh. That seems what anyone seems to hone in on in Titans titles.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I feel like Spyral was the healthiest change from being Nightwing. I definitely feel like the spyworld in DC is very untapped. A non lethal spy would be pretty interesting. 
> And sidenote, when Birds of Prey in it's early days had a few spy like missions, not saying he has to be BoP of course but the idea of a stealth mission based team would be cool without the Suicide Squad narrative etc


Because you've mentioned it again what characteristics would make Dick discount Jason? What people have brought up doesn't really sound like discount Jason to me.

I mean, of course, DickKory shippers are going to read Titans because it often is the only place Dick and Kory interact. But stating that the only people who really read Titans are DickKory shippers seems a bit far-fetched. The Rebirth titles didn't even have Kory and Dick on the same team, and I doubt DickKory shippers are picking up TTA except for maybe that one Variant cover. It's the relationships between all the Titans that get people to read the titles. Or at least I hope so. And Rebirth Titans even succeeded at showing their relationships for a few Issues I dare say. But I agree that he is largely wasted. Especially right now. Maybe Titans United can change that but I strongly doubt it.

Yeah, BoP is a good example.

Edit:



> [...]
> 
> I don't think Dick and Wally have even spoken one word to each other since Wally returned. I might be the only person on the internet to even bring this up, but to me that matters because it shows how DC views Dick's character and his level of influence. Do they view him as someone important enough to show the two reuniting on panel again after they both went thought these awful things? The answer was no. Which speaks to how DC looks at Dick's wider DCU influence and his relationships as a whole, which are horribly underdeveloped. They are awful. It really doesn't feel like Dick has any friends outside of Babs. Which is why I will always prefer a Grayson type series over what we have now because I think they allow Dick the opportunity for growth and expand his influence when we know the generic Titans and Bludhaven stuff never will.


To be honest, I completely forgot that they haven't spoken to each other even though there is no excuse that they haven't. If Dick hadn't been ushered off to the Bat camp for a quick marriage in the Last Stories one-shot there might have at least been a conversation but who knows. If Doom Metal hadn't happened I doubt there would have been a heartfelt Kory, Vic, and Dick reunion. It blew my mind that Garth and Donna appeared in a Nightwing Issue as short as their appearance might have been.

Now that Wally and Dick are both in a better place and both have an ongoing, it would be a good time for them to interact once Wally is back from his time traveling. A simple acknowledgment of each other's existence would be a starting point.

----------


## Frontier

I could either writer of their books doing a Dick and Wally team-up.

----------


## Godlike13

Titans are weird. Can't remember the last time Dick had a one on one personal meaningful interaction with any of them where there wasn't an underline sense of resentment or contempt. I think the disparity is just too great between the members. They can't afford Dick the page space in anything Titans related, while at the same time he's the go to foil to prove they belong. This one is not on the Bat office IMO. Thats a Titans problem, and how Dick is viewed as it pertains to the other members. Actually check that. I blame the Bat office too now that i think about it. Leaving Jurgens on so he can waste Dick return to further reinforce his shitty work, rather then give us an appropriate resolution.

----------


## Vordan

Lmao thanks so much DC, make it recognized in-universe as a canon thing that Dick is always bailing on his city to go be Batmans sidekick which gets taken advantage of.

----------


## Frontier

> Lmao thanks so much DC, make it recognized in-universe as a canon thing that Dick is always bailing on “his” city to go be Batman’s sidekick which gets taken advantage of.


Dick just can't win...

----------


## Rac7d*

> Because you've mentioned it again what characteristics would make Dick discount Jason? What people have brought up doesn't really sound like discount Jason to me.
> 
> I mean, of course, DickKory shippers are going to read Titans because it often is the only place Dick and Kory interact. But stating that the only people who really read Titans are DickKory shippers seems a bit far-fetched. The Rebirth titles didn't even have Kory and Dick on the same team, and I doubt DickKory shippers are picking up TTA except for maybe that one Variant cover. It's the relationships between all the Titans that get people to read the titles. Or at least I hope so. And Rebirth Titans even succeeded at showing their relationships for a few Issues I dare say. But I agree that he is largely wasted. Especially right now. Maybe Titans United can change that but I strongly doubt it.
> 
> Yeah, BoP is a good example.
> 
> Edit:
> 
> 
> ...


Him being shot in the head is the excuse and he returns to find out from Garth and Donna what had happened
Flash was dimensions hopping

----------


## bearman

I wish Dick and Wally would vacation together annually, once again.

----------


## Ascended

Agree with a lot of the points being made here. 

I think a big part of the problem too, and it goes far beyond Dick, is that DC so strictly enforces its hierarchy. There's a glass ceiling over everyone's heads and DC works hard to ensure nobody breaks it. No hero is allowed to equal the Big Names, no team can be a peer to the League. You rarely ever see real investment outside of the usual suspects, and when you do it's normally a writer's pet project.

Add to that the drive to keep everyone in a set status quo. DC called it "classic" and "iconic" but what they really meant was "frozen" and "inflexible." So not only can Dick never be as skilled or capable as Bruce, Dick also can't be re-invented too drastically and/or for too long. A short term gimmick like Spyral or Ric? That's allowed, but at the end of the arc Dick will revert to "classic" mode; Bludhaven (or comparable little big city) and Bats and Blockbuster, a broken, toxic love triangle of ex's (and Kory is rarely allowed even a *cameo* in Nightwing's solo), and Bruce's shadow hanging over it all.

So far, under the new regime, I am pretty happy with the amount of talent and page time Dick has gotten. The quality has gone *way* up. But it doesn't look like the new folks are in any rush to get Dick out of his "classic" mode, or out from Bruce's shadow. And that's a gods damn tragedy. That might make all this effort pointless. I'm thrilled Dick has gotten some quality talent lately and more appearances in other titles, and they're generally better written than what we'd been getting. Legit improvement (low bar, but still). But if Dick can't grow and evolve as a character? If he can't even do his own thing and just spins his wheels between Bat events? I'm gonna get bored sooner or later and drop the title (again). 

Nostalgia is going to kill this company. 

Well. Not "kill" kill. The portfolio is way too big for that, other divisions far too profitable. But you know what I mean.

----------


## Rac7d*

> I wish Dick and Wally would vacation together annually, once again.


or even the fab five getting together again

----------


## WonderNight

> Lmao thanks so much DC, make it recognized in-universe as a canon thing that Dick is always bailing on “his” city to go be Batman’s sidekick which gets taken advantage of.


Lmao proves my point right there. It blows my mind how some fans don't see it. Or dont what too.

----------


## Avi

Speaking about the Titans, I know we all pretty much agree that Dick ever getting a team-up book is zero, especially while so many prominent characters don't have a title and DC is rightfully upping their diversity game (or trying to) but Nightwing seems to be the best selling DC title with a 3.99$ price (that's not a #1). 

So I pose the question: _If Nightwing had "The Brave & The Bold" Backups. Team-up changing every one or two Issues. Would you still buy it/buy it again?_





> Lmao thanks so much DC, make it recognized in-universe as a canon thing that Dick is always bailing on his city to go be Batmans sidekick which gets taken advantage of.


Oh wow. They just can't help themselves. Another example:



But to the one by Vordan: It's stupid that having a city is held to Dick's detriment first in TTA and now here while others can be in multiple places without creating problems.




> Him being shot in the head is the excuse and he returns to find out from Garth and Donna what had happened
> Flash was dimensions hopping


Dick has been cured since last November. As I said, Last Stories exists and was an event marketed as a grand Titans reunion until it was not, of course. I even said Wally is time traveling, I'm well aware of that, but if Roy can mention Jason, then Wally and Dick can acknowledge the other considering they have much more panel time than Roy currently has. There is no in story excuse. Writers just don't care. Or think to mention it. Which goes hand in hand, I guess.

----------


## Rac7d*

You guys are right he should quit the Titans to spend more time here. It’s not his fault that Gotham is such a cesspool that even with Batman and his 20-30 associates and their round the clock protection can’t handle it. Their is enough of them that they could taken scheduled shifts biweekly lol.

What does metropolis do when Superman is world hopping or space jetting?

Then again I guess if Bludhaven noticed when he’s gone he really is considered it’s protector in some form? Is his past time their back in continuity.

----------


## Restingvoice

> You guys are right he should quit the Titans to spend more time here. Its not his fault that Gotham is such a cesspool that even with Batman and his 20-30 associates and their round the clock protection cant handle it. Their is enough of them that they could taken scheduled shifts biweekly lol.
> 
> What does metropolis do when Superman is world hopping or space jetting?
> 
> Then again I guess if Bludhaven noticed when hes gone he really is considered its protector in some form? Is his past time their back in continuity.


Steel, Superboy, and Supergirl usually fill in. 

I already rant about this in the other thread so I'm not gonna do it here. 

The hint we got for the previous run is Dick saying he used to be in BPD and Blockbuster is there, so for all we know if the story is canon, it went up until Dick quits BPD but instead of Blockbuster dying and his apartment bombed, something else prompted Dick to moved out of Bludhaven, like for example his broken leg. 

Oh, and Infinite Crisis did happen. Kon died, he mentioned it to Tim in Urban Legends. There's just no Chemo. 

It's the Chicago run that still hasn't got any confirmation.

----------


## Iclifton

Dick Grayson Fans

Nightwing goes to Gotham to help Batman: DC is having Dick leave Bludhaven to go play sidekick to Batman, how lame.

Nightwing calls Batman or any other Bat Fam member for an assist in Bludhaven: DC always making Dick look inefficient on his own.

----------


## Rac7d*

> Dick Grayson Fans
> 
> Nightwing goes to Gotham to help Batman: DC is having Dick leave Bludhaven to go play sidekick to Batman, how lame.
> 
> Nightwing calls Batman or any other Bat Fam member for an assist in Bludhaven: DC always making Dick look inefficient on his own.


His dad needs help
Y’all are doing to much on the guy

Even the TV show has him returning to Gotham to help Batman and deal with scarecrow 
It’s synergy

----------


## Iclifton

> His dad needs help
> Y’all are doing to much on the guy
> 
> Even the TV show has him returning to Gotham to help Batman and deal with scarecrow 
> It’s synergy


100 % Agreed

----------


## Frontier

_Titans_ is basically just a Nightwing show guest starring the Titans:

----------


## Rac7d*

> _Titans_ is basically just a Nightwing show guest starring the Titans:


It was originally supposed to be just a Nightwing show but then WB….. and you know how it goes
It’s the same for young justice

89A91C6A-96A8-424D-A359-4AC0C1500AF6.jpg

----------


## Drako

> _Titans_ is *basically just a Nightwing show* guest starring the Titans:

----------


## Rac7d*

This is the cast of Gotham knights next year
9493CDCF-57FF-45B1-A490-825170DEDB03.jpg

----------


## JackJustMetMartin

> Speaking about the Titans, I know we all pretty much agree that Dick ever getting a team-up book is zero, especially while so many prominent characters don't have a title and DC is rightfully upping their diversity game (or trying to) but Nightwing seems to be the best selling DC title with a 3.99$ price (that's not a #1). 
> 
> So I pose the question: _If Nightwing had "The Brave & The Bold" Backups. Team-up changing every one or two Issues. Would you still buy it/buy it again?_
> 
> 
> But to the one by Vordan: It's stupid that having a city is held to Dick's detriment first in TTA and now here while others can be in multiple places without creating problems.
> 
> 
> 
> Dick has been cured since last November. As I said, Last Stories exists and was an event marketed as a grand Titans reunion until it was not, of course. I even said Wally is time traveling, I'm well aware of that, but if Roy can mention Jason, then Wally and Dick can acknowledge the other considering they have much more panel time than Roy currently has. There is no in story excuse. Writers just don't care. Or think to mention it. Which goes hand in hand, I guess.


They just don't seem to _want_ to utilize Dick's character. I'd buy nearly anything Nightwing related, and honestly he needs a book with other characters in them. I think a massive issue is that he's isolated in Blüdhaven. His supporting cast is never consistent, he's the lone crime fighter in the worst/second worst city in America (Gotham is a cesspit) and that's just insane to me. Nightwing is supposed to be inspiring, so have him inspire new heroes. The storyline where he was introduced was terrible, but use Hutch as a character (representation never hurts). Give him some stories where he learns from Dick, develop him into something.

Editorial needs to mandate that certain characters are used, Amy Rohrbach should be synonymous with Blüdhaven.

Blaming Dick for not always being in Blüdhaven is strange on DC's part. They themselves refuse to give Blüdhaven anything other than a connection to Dick, it's a terrible mess.

----------


## Drako

> This is the cast of Gotham knights next year
> 9493CDCF-57FF-45B1-A490-825170DEDB03.jpg


Yeah, that's true.
Hopefully they will show gameplay of this game in this year DCFANDOME.




> They just don't seem to _want_ to utilize Dick's character. I'd buy nearly anything Nightwing related, and honestly he needs a book with other characters in them. I think a massive issue is that he's isolated in Blüdhaven. His supporting cast is never consistent, he's the lone crime fighter in the worst/second worst city in America (Gotham is a cesspit) and that's just insane to me. Nightwing is supposed to be inspiring, so have him inspire new heroes. The storyline where he was introduced was terrible, but use Hutch as a character (representation never hurts). Give him some stories where he learns from Dick, develop him into something.
> 
> Editorial needs to mandate that certain characters are used, Amy Rohrbach should be synonymous with Blüdhaven.
> 
> Blaming Dick for not always being in Blüdhaven is strange on DC's part. They themselves refuse to give Blüdhaven anything other than a connection to Dick, it's a terrible mess.


Taylor should bring Maya from the last two issues of Higgins run back and make her his sidekick or something.

----------


## JackJustMetMartin

> Taylor should bring Maya from the last two issues of Higgins run back and make her his sidekick or something.


100% That run was fantastic, and Maya always felt like a character who would one day come back.

----------


## Rac7d*

> They just don't seem to _want_ to utilize Dick's character. I'd buy nearly anything Nightwing related, and honestly he needs a book with other characters in them. I think a massive issue is that he's isolated in Blüdhaven. His supporting cast is never consistent, he's the lone crime fighter in the worst/second worst city in America (Gotham is a cesspit) and that's just insane to me. Nightwing is supposed to be inspiring, so have him inspire new heroes. The storyline where he was introduced was terrible, but use Hutch as a character (representation never hurts). Give him some stories where he learns from Dick, develop him into something.
> 
> Editorial needs to mandate that certain characters are used, Amy Rohrbach should be synonymous with Blüdhaven.
> 
> Blaming Dick for not always being in Blüdhaven is strange on DC's part. They themselves refuse to give Blüdhaven anything other than a connection to Dick, it's a terrible mess.


I would like him to put down roots in that city. To give birth to characters who will continue on in the DCU. I wish he could have a sidekick of his own. It also be nice if Babs made bludhaven the center of her operations as well. A second book using Bludhaven setting would do wonder for expanding its lore. 

Hutch would make a great flamebird

----------


## Avi

> They just don't seem to _want_ to utilize Dick's character. I'd buy nearly anything Nightwing related, and honestly he needs a book with other characters in them. I think a massive issue is that he's isolated in Blüdhaven. His supporting cast is never consistent, he's the lone crime fighter in the worst/second worst city in America (Gotham is a cesspit) and that's just insane to me. Nightwing is supposed to be inspiring, so have him inspire new heroes. The storyline where he was introduced was terrible, but use Hutch as a character (representation never hurts). Give him some stories where he learns from Dick, develop him into something.
> 
> Editorial needs to mandate that certain characters are used, Amy Rohrbach should be synonymous with Blüdhaven.
> 
> Blaming Dick for not always being in Blüdhaven is strange on DC's part. They themselves refuse to give Blüdhaven anything other than a connection to Dick, it's a terrible mess.


Isolation is a good description.

I've read pretty much nothing with Hutch, but him being a firefighter could give him a unique perspective, and if Dick were to actually train him, sure, why not.

Yeah, I don't understand why Amy hasn't returned. Tbh, I blame most of the Blüdhaven situation on editorial. It was forcefully returned under an editorial mandate but past the name and its closeness to Gotham, they obviously don't care for it. It's no wonder that it's a mess by now. 

And as has been said so many times, it should be easy for writers to fill Blüdhaven with supporting characters and much needed life again. Dixon, Grayson, Humphries, and Seeley already did the work. Pick some of them. And with Spyral seemingly done for thanks to Bendis just put Tiger into Blüd where he can start an organization again and then expand out of it.

But I don't see any indication that Taylor wants to bring those past characters back except for Blockbuster. And Blockbuster may either be a mandate as well or Taylor just wants to write a Kingpin-esque character again.

It would have been cool if the police officers suspecting Dick of murder had been known to us from past Blüd iterations. They didn't have to be Svoboda or Amy, even if that would have probably made for some fun panels, just an obscure reference.





> Yeah, that's true.
> Hopefully they will show gameplay of this game in this year DCFANDOME.
> 
> 
> 
> Taylor should bring Maya from the last two issues of Higgins run back and make her his sidekick or something.





> 100% That run was fantastic, and Maya always felt like a character who would one day come back.


Maya? Don't you two mean Jen?



I agree, it was a great two-parter. I wish she would have reappeared the second Dick returned as Nightwing.

----------


## Drako

> Isolation is a good description.
> 
> I've read pretty much nothing with Hutch, but him being a firefighter could give him a unique perspective, and if Dick were to actually train him, sure, why not.
> 
> Yeah, I don't understand why Amy hasn't returned. Tbh, I blame most of the Blüdhaven situation on editorial. It was forcefully returned under an editorial mandate but past the name and its closeness to Gotham, they obviously don't care for it. It's no wonder that it's a mess by now. 
> 
> And as has been said so many times, it should be easy for writers to fill Blüdhaven with supporting characters and much needed life again. Dixon, Grayson, Humphries, and Seeley already did the work. Pick some of them. And with Spyral seemingly done for thanks to Bendis just put Tiger into Blüd where he can start an organization again and then expand out of it.
> 
> But I don't see any indication that Taylor wants to bring those past characters back except for Blockbuster. And Blockbuster may either be a mandate as well or Taylor just wants to write a Kingpin-esque character again.
> ...


Yeah, Jen, i confused her name with Damian's friend.

----------


## Pohzee

If Nightwing has a sidekick, Bette makes so much sense. I know he already has his own Batgirl, but Bette as Flamebird does well to bridge his time as Robin in the Golden Age with his history with the Titans. Which opens the door to a better wholistic view of the character.

----------


## Drako

I feel like Bette is already passed the stage of being someone sidekick and she was already working with Batwoman. She changed her name to Hawkfire, using a nightwing-esque costume.

I support 100% that he should have a flamebird in his book, but i think someone new would be better.

Also, Taylor did a great job creating Honey Badger for Laura (PS: Scout is stupid name for her), i think he can do it again in Nightwing.

----------


## Rac7d*

> I feel like Bette is already passed the stage of being someone sidekick and she was already working with Batwoman. She changed her name to Hawkfire, using a nightwing-esque costume.
> 
> I support 100% that he should have a flamebird in his book, but i think someone new would be better.
> 
> Also, Taylor did a great job creating Honey Badger for Laura (PS: Scout is stupid name for her), i think he can do it again in Nightwing.


Hutch would make a great flamebird

----------


## Frontier

Would Bette in a Nightwing book still have her crush on him?

I know in the _Young Justice_ universe they slept together.

----------


## Rac7d*

> Would Bette in a Nightwing book still have her crush on him?
> 
> I know in the _Young Justice_ universe they slept together.


hopefully not, their like 30
https://vm.tiktok.com/ZMdqwHGBg/

----------


## Drako

From Batman89.
Looks like they're going with the Marlon Wayans version.


https://twitter.com/Joe_Quinones/sta...55694372966402

----------


## WonderNight

> hopefully not, their like 30
> https://vm.tiktok.com/ZMdqwHGBg/


If Dick is like 30 then Tim's origin makes no sense.

----------


## Badou

> From Batman89.
> Looks like they're going with the Marlon Wayans version.
> 
> 
> https://twitter.com/Joe_Quinones/sta...55694372966402


His name is Richard Drake apparently. So just combining Dick and Tim's names I guess to be an original character.

----------


## Drako

> His name is Richard Drake apparently. So just combining Dick and Tim's names I guess to be an original character.


Yeah, kinda like John Blake in TDKR.

----------


## Restingvoice

So that's why his design is Arkham. He's part Tim.

----------


## Rac7d*

> If Dick is like 30 then Tim's origin makes no sense.


Yes that’s right

----------


## Rac7d*

> Yeah, kinda like John Blake in TDKR.


Yo I dig this

----------


## Drako

NIGHTWING #85
Written by TOM TAYLOR
Pencils and inks by ROBBI RODRIGUEZ
Cover by BRUNO REDONDO
$3.99 US | 32 PAGES
Variant by JAMAL CAMPBELL
$4.99 US (Card Stock)
ON SALE 10/19/21
Babs takes the Anti-Oracle attack on her Oracle Network personally, and she suits up as Batgirl, accompanying Nightwing and Tim Drake to track down who is responsible. But with fear consuming the streets of Gotham, Batgirl and Nightwing accidentally get hit with something that reveals their deepest fears…and it involves each other.

----------


## Pohzee

This crossover can't be over soon enough. (And has-been Tim's involvement in this book too)So many exciting solicits grabbing my interest and Fear State is none of it.

----------


## HsssH

Inclusion of Oracle and Tim in earlier issues makes sense now - during Fear State this is going to basically be a team book.

----------


## Rac7d*

> NIGHTWING #85
> Written by TOM TAYLOR
> Pencils and inks by ROBBI RODRIGUEZ
> Cover by BRUNO REDONDO
> $3.99 US | 32 PAGES
> Variant by JAMAL CAMPBELL
> $4.99 US (Card Stock)
> ON SALE 10/19/21
> Babs takes the Anti-Oracle attack on her Oracle Network personally, and she suits up as Batgirl, accompanying Nightwing and Tim Drake to track down who is responsible. But with fear consuming the streets of Gotham, Batgirl and Nightwing accidentally get hit with something that reveals their deepest fearsand it involves each other.


I love this cover

----------


## Drako

> This crossover can't be over soon enough. (And has-been Tim's involvement in this book too)So many exciting solicits grabbing my interest and Fear State is none of it.


Still one more month of solicits to go until this ends.

----------


## Frontier

> So that's why his design is Arkham. He's part Tim.


Yeah, it looks like the Arkham City Robin suit.

----------


## Ascended

> This crossover can't be over soon enough. (And has-been Tim's involvement in this book too)So many exciting solicits grabbing my interest and Fear State is none of it.


This.

I have no interest in seeing Dick's narrative ripped off the rails to further another gods damn, motherf-ing Bat event. Especially since we're gonna be what, only one arc deep into the new run? I'm really, really tempted to drop the book for these issues. 

But on rare occasion, a tie-in issue is still capable of building on the "real" story within a title, rather than being totally disrupted by it. I don't know if Taylor is the kind of writer who can do that though, or if editorial will even let him.

Also, I find it funny that some folks are talking about using the fake Nightwings (one of them, anyway) as a new sidekick. I proposed something like that back when Ric was still happening and everyone thought it was an awful idea and all things "Ric" related should be thrown into limbo, never to be seen again. Seems like a few months' distance was enough for some of us to start looking at how that terrible waste of two years could now be used to further and advance Dick's mythos.  :Stick Out Tongue: 

For my money, I'd rather Bette be Dick's sidekick than one of the fakewings, but I love how fandom always takes stuff that didn't work and tries to find viable uses for it. We really don't like to throw anything away, do we? 

And if the topic is building a group of junior partners in Bludhaven to help carry the burden, I'd rather see some forgotten Titans than more Bats. None of the usual suspects, but guys nobody ever uses, like, I dunno, Argent, Hawk/Dove, even Danny Chase perhaps.....

----------


## Vordan

Or Tiger, be cool to see more of _Grayson_ in Nightwing.

----------


## Avi

I'd still prefer if all things Ric were left in the dust but bringing Blüdhaven citizens back sounds better to me than what there is right now. I'd also prefer Bea, but at this point, I'd take almost any non-Bat support character. 

Can't say I have much love for Hawk/Dove thanks to the Titans Show, but I would like to see Argent again. And Danny Chase would be interesting too.

Seconding Tiger, of course. The Skull Girls would also be neat.

And talking Grayson, now that WildCats is back, Dick could interact with Grifter and Ladytron again. (Without being reduced to Bruce's sidekick.)

----------


## Frontier

To be honest I would complain more readily about the tie-in being so Babs centric than because it's a crossover tie-in, personally.

----------


## Drako

Next issue preview:

https://twitter.com/Bruno_Redondo_F/...75413957644290

----------


## Drako

Holly shit, this page is awesome:

----------


## Godlike13

Ooh, Donnas in big sis mode. Thats a cool scene. I know some people arent big on the Bludhaven stuff, but I think even they can acknowledge theres a level of awareness here we havent seen in a long time. Like others giving a shit if hes alive or dead.

----------


## Badou

I dunno, I guess I am too cynical where them showing up feels so disingenuous. At least everyone outside Bruce. Since I don't really feel like Dick is very close with any of the Titans anymore. Feels like going through the motions. Like I don't think Dick and Donna have felt close since the New 52 started. Their last true interaction happened in that final Justice League issue where Dick was still Batman. Everything since then has felt so shallow.

----------


## Pohzee

What about if instead of Slim Drake we had Donna pop up for a few issues? That'd be nice. I agree he needs more intimate moments with the Titans.

----------


## Frontier

It's nice to see Dick's Superhero ties and friendships get acknowledged even if it seems a tad...excessive? Even Bruce showed up. Like...Dick can take care of himself. Or are we supposed to see Barbara as overprotective? I dunno.

Okay, so John didn't know he had an illegitimate daughter. I'm guessing she's got her mother upstairs or something. I still feel like we don't really need this character and I feel like she's going to get propped up at Dick's epxense.

----------


## Vordan

> To be honest I would complain more readily about the tie-in being so Babs centric than because it's a crossover tie-in, personally.


This “Anti-Oracle” (terrible name) sounds so boring and Fear State is so disconnected from Dick that I can’t help but feel like we’re repeating what happened with Higgins run.

----------


## Restingvoice

> Holly shit, this page is awesome:


Omigosh she calls everyone. Wally doesn't show up because he's dealing with his own thing in the Annual. Okay. Now this is a shared universe. This is a bit more fair, and makes more sense that Bruce is in full Dad Mode after Dick lost his memory. 




> I dunno, I guess I am too cynical where them showing up feels so disingenuous. At least everyone outside Bruce. Since I don't really feel like Dick is very close with any of the Titans anymore. Feels like going through the motions. Like I don't think Dick and Donna have felt close since the New 52 started. Their last true interaction happened in that final Justice League issue where Dick was still Batman. Everything since then has felt so shallow.


Oh no of course it's fan service, but this is what should've happened a long time ago. Like, the first Bludhaven a long time ago.  

About the closeness, we basically skip over everything else and presumably make everything canon again after Death Metal. Since I was waiting for this since the start of Rebirth, this is just a FINALLY moment than having them beholden to just the immediate previous continuity




> It's nice to see Dick's Superhero ties and friendships get acknowledged even if it seems a tad...excessive? Even Bruce showed up. Like...Dick can take care of himself. Or are we supposed to see Barbara as overprotective? I dunno.


Taylor's building up Dick Babs so yeah, as for Bruce, it's what I mentioned above. We've been told that he's been watching Dick during Ric but he only showed up for like a panel on page in the first issue Ric debuted. So this for me is like catching up to that. Actually shows he is protective.

----------


## Digifiend

> Also, Taylor did a great job creating Honey Badger for Laura (PS: Scout is stupid name for her), i think he can do it again in Nightwing.


Bad news, Gabby's been killed off.
https://aiptcomics.com/2021/07/16/ma...ew-mutants-20/

----------


## Drako

> Bad news, Gabby's been killed off.
> https://aiptcomics.com/2021/07/16/ma...ew-mutants-20/


I have no idea what is happening in this book, but it doesn't seem permanent.

----------


## Frontier

> This “Anti-Oracle” (terrible name) sounds so boring and Fear State is so disconnected from Dick that I can’t help but feel like we’re repeating what happened with Higgins run.


Anti-Oracle actually seems interesting if only by nature of the fact that it's finally calling out the super-hacker trope. 



> Oh no of course it's fan service, but this is what should've happened a long time ago. Like, the first Bludhaven a long time ago.  
> 
> About the closeness, we basically skip over everything else and presumably make everything canon again after Death Metal. Since I was waiting for this since the start of Rebirth, this is just a FINALLY moment than having them beholden to just the immediate previous continuity
> 
> Taylor's building up Dick Babs so yeah, as for Bruce, it's what I mentioned above. We've been told that he's been watching Dick during Ric but he only showed up for like a panel on page in the first issue Ric debuted. So this for me is like catching up to that. Actually shows he is protective.


I get it, it just seems excessive.

----------


## Rac7d*

> Holly shit, this page is awesome:


Its nice to see Donna in the sky, she doesnt fly as much nowadays 

Its good to see the titans are read to gang rush anyone after what happened last time, Bruce too
I would have thought it just be Tim, Mabey Cass and Steph if their Babs new birds 

But its great, also one of the few times titans step into Bludhaven

----------


## Mr. White

> Anti-Oracle actually seems interesting if only by nature of the fact that it's finally calling out the super-hacker trope. 
> 
> I get it, it just seems excessive.


While I get why it may seem excessive, I intepreted the scene to speak more towards Dick's character; in the sense that he means so much to these guys etcetera that they would not hesitate to back him up at the drop of a hat.

----------


## Korath

Am I the only one seeing tension between Barbara and Koriand'r here ? She's calling Donna by her name but Kory by her hero name of Starfire.

----------


## HsssH

I think bunch of heroes starting some "extraction protocol" whenever one them gets captured makes perfect sense. Problem is that there is no consistency, I'm sure that next time when Dick will actually be in trouble then nobody will be available.




> Am I the only one seeing tension between Barbara and Koriand'r here ? She's calling Donna by her name but Kory by her hero name of Starfire.


Same here, but I think we might be reading more into this than Taylor intended.

----------


## Avi

> Am I the only one seeing tension between Barbara and Koriand'r here ? She's calling Donna by her name but Kory by her hero name of Starfire.


Donna is going by Donna Troy instead of a secret identity, so I think that is the reason even if tension between Kory and Babs would be nothing new.

----------


## Godlike13

Ya, I think that’s more about not knowing if Donna has a code name.

----------


## Arsenal

> While I get why it may seem excessive, I intepreted the scene to speak more towards Dick's character; in the sense that he means so much to these guys etcetera that they would not hesitate to back him up at the drop of a hat.


I don’t expect that level of fire power to react every time the guy’s in trouble but I can totally buy everybody being a little trigger happy when it comes to Dick right now.

----------


## Drako

Incredible statue!

----------


## Ascended

> Oh no of course it's fan service, but this is what should've happened a long time ago. Like, the first Bludhaven a long time ago.


It's not the story we deserve, but it's the fan service we need right now.

 :Stick Out Tongue: 

I'm entirely satisfied with that page. Fan service is *exactly* what I want after Ric (up to a point). Is it over the top and unnecessary? Yes, and I love it. After the last several years, what I want most right now out of Nightwing are some scenes where A) Nightwing is shown to be stupidly, amazingly badass and B) scenes where Dick's ties, connections, and relationships across the entire DCU are highlighted and we're shown that this guy is still one of the biggest names in the hero community, capable of bringing everyone together.

Only thing that would've made that page better is Clark being there. 

Now, if we can get those Titans and Supers and other non-Gotham heroes to show up in the book more often, especially Wally and Donna? I'd start buying two issues each month. Well, probably not that upcoming Fear State tie-in, I might skip those entirely, but regular issues? Hell yeah; I'd support a Nightwing book that doesn't limit itself to Bat-lite so hard it'd make my wife jealous!

----------


## Frontier

> I think bunch of heroes starting some "extraction protocol" whenever one them gets captured makes perfect sense. Problem is that there is no consistency, I'm sure that next time when Dick will actually be in trouble then nobody will be available.


That's my main issue with it. This fast response time is probably going to be completely forgotten about when the story needs Dick to get out of a dangerous situation on his own, so it seems like the kind of fanservice that doesn't hold up as well when you think about it too much.

I'd rather get a scene of Dick hanging around and talking with people in Titans Tower. He doesn't even get to talk to any of them here since they all fly off again, but I know that would take up page space.

----------


## JackJustMetMartin

> I'm entirely satisfied with that page. Fan service is *exactly* what I want after Ric (up to a point). Is it over the top and unnecessary? Yes, and I love it. After the last several years, what I want most right now out of Nightwing are some scenes where A) Nightwing is shown to be stupidly, amazingly badass and B) scenes where Dick's ties, connections, and relationships across the entire DCU are highlighted and we're shown that this guy is still one of the biggest names in the hero community, capable of bringing everyone together.


We've spent the last how many years wishing for scenes like this. _This_ is what I want from a Nightwing book, show his friends caring, show he's beloved. Fan service is only a bad thing if it's nonsensical, this scene makes perfect sense.

----------


## Frontier

> We've spent the last how many years wishing for scenes like this. _This_ is what I want from a Nightwing book, show his friends caring, show he's beloved. Fan service is only a bad thing if it's nonsensical, this scene makes perfect sense.


I think it'll become nonsensical when Dick gets into situations like this and no large amounts of heroes come in to bail him out because it would break the story.

----------


## Rac7d*

> I think it'll become nonsensical when Dick gets into situations like this and no large amounts of heroes come in to bail him out because it would break the story.


The justice league didnt it bail Bruce out of Gotham no mans lands
Yes the Gothamverse is contained, it’s also why Dick Jason and anyone else can’t date flying brick heroes becuase they break the story. It’s not ridiculous anymore then then the idea of superheroes.

----------


## Micael

> The justice league didnt it bail Bruce out of Gotham no mans lands
> Yes the Gothamverse is contained, it’s also why Dick Jason and anyone else can’t date flying brick heroes becuase they break the story. It’s not ridiculous anymore then then the idea of superheroes.


I think it's one of those things that you have to keep out the reader's mind to allow full immersion. Don't remind us that he has friends and allies who could solve any problem he has in 5 minutes. If we don't see them at least we can pretend they're busy with their own problems, having them show up like that will make us question why isn't that an option for future events. Also it isn't just dating characters with powers even human heroes will essentially tip the scale in the protagonist favor the writer has to essentially come up with a believable challenge that would be hard for both of them.

----------


## Drako

> I think it'll become nonsensical when Dick gets into situations like this and no large amounts of heroes come in to bail him out because it would break the story.


Barbara called for help. Had she not being in contact with him at the time he got jumped, no one would know. It not difficult to justify this in the story.

----------


## Ascended

> I think it'll become nonsensical when Dick gets into situations like this and no large amounts of heroes come in to bail him out because it would break the story.


How is it nonsensical? These guys weren't busy when Babs called them in to help Dick. Next time he's in trouble and they don't come running, we can safely assume they *are* busy. 

You know what *is* nonsensical? The fact that the League doesn't take a weekend, sweep through Gotham, and throw every corrupt cop, politician, and villain into space jail. 

Comics don't make any sense. But this scene doesn't even break the internal logic of the DCU; if we call this out then we gotta also call out everything else.

----------


## Godlike13

The scene makes 2 points. There are other characters that care about Dick, and Oracle can call in the cavalry.

----------


## Restingvoice

> I think it'll become nonsensical when Dick gets into situations like this and no large amounts of heroes come in to bail him out because it would break the story.





> I think it's one of those things that you have to keep out the reader's mind to allow full immersion. Don't remind us that he has friends and allies who could solve any problem he has in 5 minutes. If we don't see them at least we can pretend they're busy with their own problems, having them show up like that will make us question why isn't that an option for future events. Also it isn't just dating characters with powers even human heroes will essentially tip the scale in the protagonist favor the writer has to essentially come up with a believable challenge that would be hard for both of them.


No. Make them show up. I was marketed by DC that this is a shared universe, so actually make them shared universe. Do show up when the character's not busy fighting their own problem, and do help, and don't make local character be stupid or prideful that they refuse help. Actually solve the problem. Be the hero that the city and the victims need.

----------


## Frontier

> Barbara called for help. Had she not being in contact with him at the time he got jumped, no one would know. It not difficult to justify this in the story.


I feel like it would've been simpler and more in-character to just send Tim in. 



> How is it nonsensical? These guys weren't busy when Babs called them in to help Dick. *Next time he's in trouble and they don't come running, we can safely assume they *are* busy.* 
> 
> You know what *is* nonsensical? The fact that the League doesn't take a weekend, sweep through Gotham, and throw every corrupt cop, politician, and villain into space jail. 
> 
> Comics don't make any sense. But this scene doesn't even break the internal logic of the DCU; if we call this out then we gotta also call out everything else.


If they mention that, then fine. But they probably won't  :Stick Out Tongue: . 



> The scene makes 2 points. There are other characters that care about Dick, and Oracle can call in the cavalry.


Will she ever do it again, though?

----------


## Ascended

> If they mention that, then fine. But they probably won't .


Probably not, but do they *have* to? It's not a big jump in logic, yknow?

----------


## Godlike13

> Will she ever do it again, though?


Possibly. Its one of her things. Its pretty much all she does in Batman.

----------


## Badou

> That's my main issue with it. This fast response time is probably going to be completely forgotten about when the story needs Dick to get out of a dangerous situation on his own, so it seems like the kind of fanservice that doesn't hold up as well when you think about it too much.
> 
> I'd rather get a scene of Dick hanging around and talking with people in Titans Tower. He doesn't even get to talk to any of them here since they all fly off again, but I know that would take up page space.


Feel the same. I get the idea behind having the heroes show up to "save" Dick, even if he should be able to get out of something like this by himself, but it isn't something that can happen in the actual story because these super power characters can defeat anyone in Bludhaven in 2 seconds. So Taylor introduces something he will immediately have to write around or ignore going forward. Situations like this are more suited to Justice League, Titans, or non street level stories. It's like when Alfred was captured in Gotham recently. Realistically Flash or Superman could have busted in and saved him before Bane or Thomas Wane could even react, but King had to come up with excuses why they didn't and ignore them. 

I'd much rather see Dick have more personal moments with the other heroes. Him and Donna going out to dinner or something. Try and build back up what their relationship was like before Flashpoint. I don't think Dick has even had one real conversation between himself, Raven, Beast Boy, or Cyborg on any kind of personal level since the New 52 started. Him and Wally still haven't interacted I think since Abnett's first Titans run. In Seeley's Nightwing run you had moments where he was in his apartment talking to a Wally or Roy on the phone and stuff. Give me a lot more moments and scenes like that beyond it just being Dick and Babs in those kind of scenes.

----------


## Ascended

Dick, Kori, and Vic all had some time to talk during the Justice League Death Metal tie-in's. It was nice. Not nearly enough, but nice. And I think Dick got to talk to some of the Titans towards the end of the main Death Metal series, though I didn't read that.

Anyway, I mostly agree with you. It's good to see these guys have Dick's back but it's no substitute for actual character interaction. Still an improvement over what we've been getting, but a damn small one. I like it, but I want more.

----------


## Drako



----------


## Frontier

> 


I hope this isn't the last they show up at least. And hopefully not to bail Dick out.

----------


## Grayson - The Dark Heir

If the reason the Titans or other heroes like Superman shouldn't be around to help in a Batbook is because they would solve all the problems in like 5 minutes, that's not a reason to stop the characters from appearing, that's a reason to create more complex problems for the protagonists. If Superman could solve all of Batman's problems for him, then those aren't very compelling problems. They exist in the same universe, there should be a reason they both exist and carry books. If you can't apply that same approach to Nightwing, then that's a problem with Nightwing as a character, an IP, or a book, and with the universe as a whole.

Anyways, there are several Super-characters around, all with super-hearing, so if you've been applying your suspension of disbelief to explain away the fact that they won't solve every character's problems within seconds because they're too busy with their own, I have trouble understanding why you wouldn't apply the same thinking to characters without super-hearing lol.

All that said, yeah this is nice fanservice. It's the kind that at least gives me a reason to want to read the issue, because now I'm hoping Taylor actually circles back around to Donna later on. We have Donna here, and we have Cass appearing in #86 because of Fear State, and both characters are sisters to Dick in their own ways. So if Taylor actually fleshes out/re-establishes his relationship to his two existing sisters well, I'll have much less of an issue with his new character.

----------


## The World

> *If the reason the Titans or other heroes like Superman shouldn't be around to help in a Batbook is because they would solve all the problems in like 5 minutes, that's not a reason to stop the characters from appearing, that's a reason to create more complex problems for the protagonists. If Superman could solve all of Batman's problems for him, then those aren't very compelling problems. They exist in the same universe, there should be a reason they both exist and carry books. If you can't apply that same approach to Nightwing, then that's a problem with Nightwing as a character, an IP, or a book, and with the universe as a whole.*
> 
> Anyways, there are several Super-characters around, all with super-hearing, so if you've been applying your suspension of disbelief to explain away the fact that they won't solve every character's problems within seconds because they're too busy with their own, I have trouble understanding why you wouldn't apply the same thinking to characters without super-hearing lol.
> 
> All that said, yeah this is nice fanservice. It's the kind that at least gives me a reason to want to read the issue, because now I'm hoping Taylor actually circles back around to Donna later on. We have Donna here, and we have Cass appearing in #86 because of Fear State, and both characters are sisters to Dick in their own ways. So if Taylor actually fleshes out/re-establishes his relationship to his two existing sisters well, I'll have much less of an issue with his new character.


The fact that they've cut Superman's powerlevels multiple times because the writers were struggling to give him compelling problems should tell you this doesn't make much sense. People don't pick up Batman to see Superman, the pick it up to read Batman and problems that fit his capabilities often confined to the limits of one city. If Gotham is burning then Bruce is generally at his wits end, if Metropolis is burning then Superman takes care of it between finishing up a writing assignment and fixing robots at the fortress. Trying to cram these characters in stories they don't fit gives you weird scenes where Superman tries to fix Gotham during No Man's Land but immediately gives up because people were haggling over electricity.

----------


## Rac7d*

remember when joker abducted Tim drake and his team did nothing , becasue if they did it would break the story
You guys are acting like you have never considered this?  Superpowered folks visit Gotham but never stay extended periods or arc. A good example is when superman visited Dick in bludhaven

he stopped blockbuster in two seconds

----------


## Lazurus33

Nightwing #82 Preview

https://bleedingcool.com/comics/with...ng-82-preview/

----------


## Lucas 35

What do you think about the idea that Dick was 39 years old when he met Damian?

https://bleedingcool.com/comics/firs...ine-dan-didio/

----------


## Rac7d*

> What do you think about the idea that Dick was 39 years old when he met Damian?
> 
> https://bleedingcool.com/comics/firs...ine-dan-didio/


Those ages seem legit honestly when you dont try to cram so much lore into 5 years

----------


## Pohzee

I don't want Dick passing the age of 30 until he takes on a bigger role in the DCU. Crossing that line means that he never lived up to his potential.

----------


## JackJustMetMartin

> I don't want Dick passing the age of 30 until he takes on a bigger role in the DCU. Crossing that line means that he never lived up to his potential.


This. I'm fine with Dick being 30, 40 so long as his character is allowed to flourish. Let him lead the Justice League, show him as a pillar of the DCU.

----------


## Ascended

> What do you think about the idea that Dick was 39 years old when he met Damian?


From what I understand about 5G, I'd have been fine with it as long as Dick had evolved and grown and was shown to live up to his potential. 

The idea of 5G was that we'd have books in different eras, and get to see characters are multiple points in their lives right? So a G2 book/story with Dick as a 20-something and a G3 book/story with Dick in his early 40's would've been fine, as long as Dick (and everyone else) was treated his age.

----------


## Ascended

> 


Crap, meant to put this in the same reply.

Anyway, this post here is why I'm still hopeful that Taylor's run is going to grow into something beyond a Dixon redux.

----------


## Restingvoice

> What do you think about the idea that Dick was 39 years old when he met Damian?
> 
> https://bleedingcool.com/comics/firs...ine-dan-didio/


That's not the problem. The problem is he's older than Harley

Although ideally he should be the same age as Bruce when he took him in

----------


## Godlike13

> That's not the problem. The problem is he's older than Harley


And Babs. 
…

----------


## bearman

I still feel that the in-universe standard for success is the Justice League. Dick should get elected, join, and eventually lead it, preferably for a long time. That’s what Bruce raised him to do…use all his skills, his compassion, his interpersonal gifts , and make the world a better place.

----------


## Grayson - The Dark Heir

So the interesting thing about the 5G timeline is it’s never stated that Dick ever stops being Batman. He becomes Batman along with Damian becoming Robin, and Donna becomes Wonder Woman for a short while before Diana takes the mantle back but that’s it. The implication here is that Dick was still Batman even when the Titans reform later in the timeline. Plus, there’s a possibility that the Batman on the JL (that Hal and Arthur are said to be joining) in what would’ve been the equivalent to the New 52 JL Origin story was Dick. Now, would Didio let all that happen? Probably not, but maybe he would have just because his biggest issue was that the legacy characters would age older characters, except this is a timeline that actually intends for them to age so who really knows? It’s an interesting idea at least. 




> The fact that they've cut Superman's powerlevels multiple times because the writers were struggling to give him compelling problems should tell you this doesn't make much sense. People don't pick up Batman to see Superman, the pick it up to read Batman and problems that fit his capabilities often confined to the limits of one city. If Gotham is burning then Bruce is generally at his wits end, if Metropolis is burning then Superman takes care of it between finishing up a writing assignment and fixing robots at the fortress. Trying to cram these characters in stories they don't fit gives you weird scenes where Superman tries to fix Gotham during No Man's Land but immediately gives up because people were haggling over electricity.


Using examples of poor writing isn’t a good example lol. A shared universe is a shared universe, if a writer can’t give a believable reason why one of Bruce’s best friends can’t help when he really needs it, that’s on them. If the problem is so simple that someone else can solve it, that’s another writing issue. Plan and simple. If Superman can break your Batman story, then it’s either not a good Batman story, or not meant to be a mainline Batman story. It should be set outside of continuity of it doesn’t work in continuity. Like this and other posts just make it sound like the plain existence of Superman invalidates the need for Batman or Nightwing, which is exactly the issue. If that’s actually the case, then Batman and Nightwing and others need reasons to exist and set themselves apart from Superman or whoever else. That’s what each and every story needs to set out to do, prove to me your story is worth being told.

----------


## Aahz

> This. I'm fine with Dick being 30, 40 so long as his character is allowed to flourish. Let him lead the Justice League, show him as a pillar of the DCU.


He cant't really lead the Justice League unless you kick the Trinity (and most of the other Founders) out, and at this points the Justice League stops being a big deal imo.

I mean who cares about what character led the Justice League Detroit or Justice League International?

----------


## Avi

> What do you think about the idea that Dick was 39 years old when he met Damian?
> 
> https://bleedingcool.com/comics/firs...ine-dan-didio/


39 to 42 is a few years too old for me. 10 years or 7 years younger would fit better. 

I do think by the time Bruce comes back Dick'd be in his early thirties. And in a never rebooted timeline would remain Co-Batman for longer.

But those ages in general aren't my cup of tea.

----------


## Aahz

And he would have also allready been 24 by the time he became Nightwing.

I mean the new52 and even the pre flashpoint time line were overly compressed, by this timeline goes to far in the other direction imo.

Especially when it comes to "Generation 2" there is not really a reason to stretch it that much, simply there isn't really anything happening that demands it. Having the "Fab5" start at 12-13 and be around 19-20 around at COIE (like in the original comics) wouldn't cause any problems with continuity.

----------


## HsssH

> Using examples of poor writing isnt a good example lol. A shared universe is a shared universe, if a writer cant give a believable reason why one of Bruces best friends cant help when he really needs it, thats on them. If the problem is so simple that someone else can solve it, thats another writing issue. Plan and simple. If Superman can break your Batman story, then its either not a good Batman story, or not meant to be a mainline Batman story. It should be set outside of continuity of it doesnt work in continuity. Like this and other posts just make it sound like the plain existence of Superman invalidates the need for Batman or Nightwing, which is exactly the issue. If thats actually the case, then Batman and Nightwing and others need reasons to exist and set themselves apart from Superman or whoever else. Thats what each and every story needs to set out to do, prove to me your story is worth being told.


So was Batman Inc. a bad story because Superman (or any other meta hero) could have smashed Heretic and prevented lots of deaths?

----------


## Pohzee

> And he would have also allready been 24 by the time he became Nightwing.
> 
> I mean the new52 and even the pre flashpoint time line were overly compressed, by this timeline goes to far in the other direction imo.
> 
> Especially when it comes to "Generation 2" there is not really a reason to stretch it that much, simply there isn't really anything happening that demands it. Having the "Fab5" start at 12-13 and be around 19-20 around at COIE (like in the original comics) wouldn't cause any problems with continuity.


There's also no reason Tim should be 24 when Damian comes around. Part of the point is that he's pushed out early, young and angry. That should be more like 17-19 IMO

----------


## Restingvoice

> So was Batman Inc. a bad story because Superman (or any other meta hero) could have smashed Heretic and prevented lots of deaths?


Depends. What was he doing at that time? 

If I remember correctly he was dealing with H'El trying to destroy Earth to power up a time machine so he can go back in time to save Krypton or something like that, in that case, no, it's not bad, because his attention is appropriately on the larger threat.

----------


## Restingvoice

Dick will be in Shazam since that story is how Billy end up in TTA



Omigosh it's Chemo

----------


## Drako

So two books with him tomorrow.

----------


## Iclifton

> Depends. What was he doing at that time? 
> 
> If I remember correctly he was dealing with H'El trying to destroy Earth to power up a time machine so he can go back in time to save Krypton or something like that, in that case, no, it's not bad, because his attention is appropriately on the larger threat.


Based on that logic couldn`t one reasonably assume that if other characters are not showing up to help it is because they are busy with their own threat? Or does the story need to actually list every single DC character explicitly and tell you what they are up to at the time? Or do we need to read every other DC story published that month so that as readers we understand they are busy? Turns out Batman The Last Laugh is trash because Bruce should have just called Superman to catch the Joker using his super hearing/x-ray vision within the span of literally 5 mins.

----------


## Iclifton

So is every Nightwing/Batman story, or DC universe story for that matter, that does not have Superman level threat or grounded a badly written story?

----------


## Frontier

> Dick will be in Shazam since that story is how Billy end up in TTA
> 
> 
> 
> Omigosh it's Chemo


So he just wears an overly sized belt with a T on it as part of his teacher's uniform.

----------


## Iclifton

> So he just wears an overly sized belt with a T on it as part of his teacher's uniform.


Yeah not going to lie, the giant "T" looks super wierd lol

----------


## Restingvoice

> Based on that logic couldn`t one reasonably assume that if other characters are not showing up to help it is because they are busy with their own threat? Or does the story need to actually list every single DC character explicitly and tell you what they are up to at the time? Or do we need to read every other DC story published that month so that as readers we understand they are busy? Turns out Batman The Last Laugh is trash because Bruce should have just called Superman to catch the Joker using his super hearing/x-ray vision within the span of literally 5 mins.


Yes. That's pretty much always my assumption. No, they don't need to make a list. Most often they say, oh, Justice League is off planet. That's enough.  

It only become a problem if the story specifically calls attention to it and does nothing, like Superman actually visited No Man's Land and offered help and Batman refused. That's dumb. No Man's Land as a concept itself is also a problem in shared universe because it went on for so long that there's no way Flash and other heroes can't help as well. 

Bludhaven post-Chemo makes more sense because it's in the same situation as No Man's Land, it went pretty long too in universe wasn't it? A year? But the heroes actually went in and help. 

Last Laugh... didn't Joker keep everyone busy because he's venomizing everyone? Is there an issue that has no tie in back then?

----------


## Iclifton

> Yes. That's pretty much always my assumption. No, they don't need to make a list. Most often they say, oh, Justice League is off planet. That's enough.  
> 
> It only become a problem if the story specifically calls attention to it and does nothing, like Superman actually visited No Man's Land and offered help and Batman refused. That's dumb. No Man's Land as a concept itself is also a problem in shared universe because it went on for so long that there's no way Flash and other heroes can't help as well. 
> 
> Bludhaven post-Chemo makes more sense because it's in the same situation as No Man's Land, it went pretty long too in universe wasn't it? A year? But the heroes actually went in and help. 
> 
> Last Laugh... didn't Joker keep everyone busy because he's venomizing everyone? Is there an issue that has no tie in back then?


My apologies, my reference was to Killing Joke. Okay so I guess I am not seeing the issue with the guest appearance in the upcoming issue. Dick did not require their help at the time and if he gets in trouble again and they do not show, we can just assume they are busy.

----------


## Grayson - The Dark Heir

I've been looking forward to the Shazam book, so it's cool to see Dick and the Titans actually appearing for more than just a cameo or something. 




> Based on that logic couldn`t one reasonably assume that if other characters are not showing up to help it is because they are busy with their own threat? Or does the story need to actually list every single DC character explicitly and tell you what they are up to at the time? Or do we need to read every other DC story published that month so that as readers we understand they are busy? Turns out Batman The Last Laugh is trash because Bruce should have just called Superman to catch the Joker using his super hearing/x-ray vision within the span of literally 5 mins.


Almost like the entire discussion about the Titans showing up breaking the story doesn't make any sense, which was my point!

It all comes back to the same idea, that characters more powerful than street-level apparently don't have any place in the same universe as street-level characters, that's really what I've been arguing against. It doesn't matter if the Titans show up in Nightwing, because they exist in the same universe. If them showing up breaks the Nightwing story for you, their existence itself should be breaking Nightwing and the shared universe for you, which is ultimately a Nightwing problem if anything. The Spectre can show up at any point in any Superman story, too, for example.

If you don't ask yourself "why didn't Superman solve everything in the Batman, Inc. book?", I have absolutely no idea why you would be asking "why didn't the Titans solve everything" in any good Nightwing story. Taking issue with the Titans, or say, an appearance from Clark at some point, would be the same as admitting Dick's current adventures are too simple and small in scale, which is and maybe always has been the issue with the Nightwing book imo. Now, is Taylor's run a good Nightwing story? I can't say, it feels too early but that's also because it's been so slow that it feels like nothing has happened yet, so I'll reserve judgement.

----------


## Rac7d*

> Yeah not going to lie, the giant "T" looks super wierd lol


Thought it was a nod to x men

----------


## Murrocko

Just finished reading the newest issue... I don't think Tom Taylor/this story's for me. Really on the fence if I should give it one more issue or just drop it for the time being.

----------


## HsssH

Today I learned that there is such a thing as "Romani smile", did Taylor go borderline racist in his attempt to remind everyone that Dick is half-Romani? I mean, do Romani's smile different than everyone else?

----------


## Restingvoice

> Today I learned that there is such a thing as "Romani smile", did Taylor go borderline racist in his attempt to remind everyone that Dick is half-Romani? I mean, do Romani's smile different than everyone else?


That depends on what it is and if Roma people in real life use it

Edit: Nevermind. Saw the page.

No. That's not racist. That's just saying his smile looks like his mother's, who is Romani. Wording can be different maybe, to make it clearer, but I got the intention.

----------


## Godlike13

Probably the weakest issue so far. I feel like they could cut half of the in the past pages and still accomplish what they needed to. What’s more I thought the reveal was rather safe. *spoilers:*
Dick’s parents don’t need to be sacred or blemish free. I kind of feel it would have been more impactful if John did cheat.
*end of spoilers*




> Today I learned that there is such a thing as "Romani smile", did Taylor go borderline racist in his attempt to remind everyone that Dick is half-Romani? I mean, do Romani's smile different than everyone else?


It not racist to acknowledge one’s race, it’d be racist is if it was acknowledged negatively or offensively. Different races do have different characteristics.

----------


## Drako

Let's not accuse people of being racist with no evidence whatsoever, please.

Anyways, this issue was indeed the weakest one and the story of Melina Zucco was more like the story of her mother, she didn't even talk in the flashback.

----------


## HsssH

> No. That's not racist. That's just saying his smile looks like his mother's, who is Romani. Wording can be different maybe, to make it clearer, but I got the intention.


Thats my point, I have never seen anyone say it like this instead of simply saying that your smile (eyes, whatever) looks like your mother's.

----------


## Pohzee

Dick to Melinda Zucco: You have your mother's Asian eyes  :EEK!: 

Really decompressed issue this week. Feel like we won't get a proper resolution before Fear State. Hopefully its skippable like NotMM in the Raptor story, but the solicits about Dick and Babs makes me think not.

Really starting to seem like Redondo is carrying this series. Taylor is falling into boring tropes, and the last few issues have had none of the introspection promised by the first issue.

Dick's father having a long-lost secret child? A little cliche but believable. Who is the daughter of Tony Zucco's ex-wife? Hm... And the daughter moved to Blüdhaven as a child, fell in with Blockbuster and became Mayor? Okay no.

----------


## Lady Nightwing

I thought the whole thing was handled pretty well, I was expecting the worst tbh.

I did like how John Grayson was kind of similar in personality to Dick. That was nice. I also liked that when Babs called the cavalry off Donna lingered a bit. Also seeing Dick in Chinese clothing was cute, though a bit weird they had an outfit that fit him perfectly.

I agree that the Romani smile thing was a bit odd but I think it was slightly clumsy writing as opposed to racism.

The issue was pretty dull overall. Bruno Redondos art is still outstanding.

----------


## HsssH

> I agree that the Romani smile thing was a bit odd but I think it was slightly clumsy writing as opposed to racism.


I guess by criticism clumsy writing I was clumsy as well  :Big Grin:  

I'm not trying to say that Taylor is racist. I think that Taylor wanted to highlight that both protagonists here are mixed-race. With sister it was obvious since we had her mother doing the exposition, but Taylor probably didn't figure out a natural way for Dick's Romani heritage to come up so he wrote a clumsy and unnatural line.




> Probably the weakest issue so far. I feel like they could cut half of the in the past pages and still accomplish what they needed to. What’s more I thought the reveal was rather safe. *spoilers:*
> Dick’s parents don’t need to be sacred or blemish free. I kind of feel it would have been more impactful if John did cheat.
> *end of spoilers*


For the entire thing to work and make sense she had to stay with Dick's parents only for 3 months. If at later point someone wants to retcon this they can just say that when Melinda's mother ran away from Zucco she was already pregnant and Dick is not related to Melinda. So yeah, very safe and in-built means to retcon it away.

----------


## JackJustMetMartin

> Dick to Melinda Zucco: You have your mother's Asian eyes 
> 
> Really decompressed issue this week. Feel like we won't get a proper resolution before Fear State. Hopefully its skippable like NotMM in the Raptor story, but the solicits about Dick and Babs makes me think not.
> 
> Really starting to seem like Redondo is carrying this series. Taylor is falling into boring tropes, and the last few issues have had none of the introspection promised by the first issue.
> 
> Dick's father having a long-lost secret child? A little cliche but believable. Who is the daughter of Tony Zucco's ex-wife? Hm... And the daughter moved to Blüdhaven as a child, fell in with Blockbuster and became Mayor? Okay no.


It's really starting to drag out. I think Nightwing being bimonthly is hurting the book, the pacing seems completely off. I've re-read Taylor's run and it's decent, nothing special apart from the art. 

At least I enjoyed the sequence with Dick's parents, it's always nice to see characters developed.

----------


## Veni

I really didn't like this issue. I'm so sick and tired of the long-lost/secret sibling trope. I hope they retcon it later that it was all a lie.  As for his Romani heritage that "Romani smile" line is so stupid and for the Romani people sounds racist. Taylor may have wanted to acknowledge Dick's heritage but a think he made it worse. I also hope they retcon this as well. They need to stop retconning existing characters' histories.

----------


## Pohzee

> It's really starting to drag out. I think Nightwing being bimonthly is hurting the book, the pacing seems completely off. I've re-read Taylor's run and it's decent, nothing special apart from the art. 
> 
> At least I enjoyed the sequence with Dick's parents, it's always nice to see characters developed.


I wouldn't want it bimonthly. Redondo is the best part of the series. Taylor just needs to step up and give us more meat in each issue. It was fine for the first one or two because we got some nice character moments and small beats. Now its not even that. It's just blatant decompression.

----------


## Journey

At least the sister is older and Dick's image of his father isn't tainted they could have made him a cheating piece of shit I ain't mad about this overall retcon it's whatever she'll probably be forgotten in a year anyway.

----------


## Iclifton

As I thought John came off without any fault. Everyone's criticism of John cheating before the story even came out was unfounded. 

With that being said, this issue was the weakest of the run so far. I still like the Melinda storyline as well as seeing John and Mary in action. Cool to see them easily take out Zucco. Just wish more happened. Felt like I read half an issue. A good issue. But still only half.

----------


## Claude

Yeah, didn't hate that - decompressed, but if you're _going_ to do the Long Lost Secret Sibling Trope then you need to devote a bit of time to it. And it was nice to see John and Mary fleshed out a bit more than the usual Uncle Ben style "fond wisdom-droppers" that dead parental figures normally are in comics. Thought it was quite sweet how they both had Dick's "voice".

*spoilers:*
It does change Zucco's relationship with them, and thus Dick's origin story - but not in any way that seems hugely harmful. Unlike the Waynes, the randomness of the action has never been the important bit. 
*end of spoilers*


Thought "Shazam" was good too - there's more of Nightwing than just in the previews, but not a _lot_ more. So not worth picking up just for him - but I thought it was a solid start to a Shazam story, as well as improving Teen Titans Academy more generally by showing what characters not hugely focused on there get up to. It's a low bar, but this current era is the most I've enjoyed a Titans book for a _long_ time.

----------


## Iclifton

> Yeah, didn't hate that - decompressed, but if you're _going_ to do the Long Lost Secret Sibling Trope then you need to devote a bit of time to it. And it was nice to see John and Mary fleshed out a bit more than the usual Uncle Ben style "fond wisdom-droppers" that dead parental figures normally are in comics. Thought it was quite sweet how they both had Dick's "voice".
> 
> *spoilers:*
> It does change Zucco's relationship with them, and thus Dick's origin story - but not in any way that seems hugely harmful. Unlike the Waynes, the randomness of the action has never been the important bit. 
> *end of spoilers*
> 
> 
> Thought "Shazam" was good too - there's more of Nightwing than just in the previews, but not a _lot_ more. So not worth picking up just for him - but I thought it was a solid start to a Shazam story, as well as improving Teen Titans Academy more generally by showing what characters not hugely focused on there get up to. It's a low bar, but this current era is the most I've enjoyed a Titans book for a _long_ time.


I can see that. In regards to the adjustment of Dick`s origin, I kind of like. Makes his origin a little more unique/different than the Bruce. TBH I wish Bruce had no idea who killed his parents.

----------


## Pohzee

I have a hunch that the issue was as decompressed as it was with flashbacks as drawn out as they were in order to given Redondo a chance to draw all of the present day panels. This and the artist change for Fear State give him the chance to catch up and get ahead.

If that's the case, then I totally get the justification. But the flashbacks could have shown more about Zucco in Blüdhaven.

----------


## Iclifton

> I have a hunch that the issue was as decompressed as it was with flashbacks as drawn out as they were in order to given Redondo a chance to draw all of the present day panels. This and the artist change for Fear State give him the chance to catch up and get ahead.
> 
> If that's the case, then I totally get the justification. But the flashbacks could have shown more about Zucco in Blüdhaven.


Fair enough, it wasnt a bad issue, just felt quick. I actually really liked the art in the flashback panels. Honestly almost as much as Redondo. Do we know if this artist is currently drawing anything else for DC? Also, who is the fill in for the Fear state tie in issues?

----------


## Pohzee

> Fair enough, it wasnt a bad issue, just felt quick. I actually really liked the art in the flashback panels. Honestly almost as much as Redondo. Do we know if this artist is currently drawing anything else for DC? Also, who is the fill in for the Fear state tie in issues?


I believe the Fear State artist is the one who did the Joker War tie-ins for Batgirl

----------


## Claude

> I can see that. In regards to the adjustment of Dick`s origin, I kind of like. Makes his origin a little more unique/different than the Bruce.


I think I like it too - as an attempt to connect disparate elements of his life, it's moderately elegant. And it doesn't involve throwing anyone's character under the bus - like the Owls retcon did to Mr Haly and the circus in general.




> TBH I wish Bruce had no idea who killed his parents.


Agreed! Although I'll allow it, so long as Joe Chill remains an absolute nobody and more pathetic than impressive - whereas Zucco was, I suppose, always premeditated.

----------


## K. Jones

I still don't like the trope (and elsewhere, lately) but I'll give props for the execution being okay. You can do a lot with 22 pages, and while the old "obligatory "HOW?" flashback" can kill your opening arc's momentum, this was fairly efficient, characters were characterized fairly well, and Dick directly reacts to "how this changes his perception" alongside the retcon - the notion for instance of Zucco already having a grudge against the Graysons makes plenty of sense ... you know, once you've already set aside the fact that this is like the Fifth Tony Zucco Version and that you won't be "Reconciling Zuccos" any time soon. Can the execution of the rest of the story sell it? Can't say. But did this issue do the work? Yeah, it sort of did. 

Enough makes sense not to go total write-off just yet. Which, considering I wrote off Ric Grayson by the first issue, marks where the bar tends to be set I guess. Redondo art and having the guest do the flashback stuff was efficient, too.

----------


## Iclifton

> I think I like it too - as an attempt to connect disparate elements of his life, it's moderately elegant. And it doesn't involve throwing anyone's character under the bus - like the Owls retcon did to Mr Haly and the circus in general.
> 
> 
> 
> Agreed! Although I'll allow it, so long as Joe Chill remains an absolute nobody and more pathetic than impressive - whereas Zucco was, I suppose, always premeditated.


Exactly! It did a good job making it reasonable that Dick would have a sister connected to Maroni family and Zucco. By making it intentional it all makes sense how this played out. 

Yeah if your going to keep Joe Chill around that's how you gotta do it. It doesn't necessarily bother me, but I`d definitely prefer his parents killer to be faceless and an analogue for crime itself.

----------


## Murrocko

Making Zucco a scorned cuck just doesn't do it for me. I preferred Zucco having zero ties to the Grayson's prior to their murders. 

I really hope it turns out that Melinda's mom was already pregnant and it's all wishful thinking John's pull out game was weak. Melinda can go the way of Zucco's other kids and seemingly be forgotten about for forever (miss ya Sonia). 

What are the chances Zucco himself shows up in this storyline? Last I checked he was still alive, reformed, and has a whole new family.

----------


## Frontier

Yeah, I'm more a Joe Chill (thanks to Chill of the Night) guy and prefer Zucco's motivations to kill the Graysons not have anything to do with relationships (what is this, the CW?) but I'm also not expecting to be sold on the sister in any case.

----------


## Vordan

The decompression is killing the book, so little has happened and now the story is going to get derailed by Fear State. Taylor needs to start kicking things into gear, not spending time spinning wheels. The art remains the best part of the book. I really hope whatever Dick and Babs do during Fear State will actually be relevant to Bludhaven, because a three month detour when so little has happened already is not an encouraging sign.

The retcon is whatever, I still dont care about this new sister and it doesnt really seem to change anything.

----------


## Iclifton

> The decompression is killing the book, so little has happened and now the story is going to get derailed by Fear State. Taylor needs to start kicking things into gear, not spending time spinning wheels. The art remains the best part of the book. I really hope whatever Dick and Babs do during Fear State will actually be relevant to Bludhaven, because a three month detour when so little has happened already is not an encouraging sign.
> 
> The retcon is whatever, I still dont care about this new sister and it doesnt really seem to change anything.


Got to say, I disagree with you. This particular issue was decompressed, yes. But overall, we have had a ton of developments. Because Taylor is focusing on multiple story threads at once, we do not yet have a complete story. But as they start to weave together, we will have a more complete story. Reminds me of a TV show kind of story telling. 

We have:
- Dick Grayson inheritance storyline
- Melinda storyline
- Blockbuster/Maroni Storyline
- Heartless storyline

That's a lot of world building and development for 5 issues.

----------


## Restingvoice

Is it a bad time to bring up that in New 52 Zero Year, as a circus boy, Dick saved Sal Maroni's son, and Sal promised that he will answer if Dick asks? 

I mean on top of him dating Sonia Zucco in the Post Crisis New 52 transition and saving another Zucco son in a digital-first comic? 

Also, Nightwing's actions leading Zucco to return as a crime boss in Chicago after his wife and another son left him?

Can we please have all of them back just to muck things up a bit more? I may be able to have fun with all this.

----------


## Rakiduam

> Is it a bad time to bring up that in New 52 Zero Year, as a circus boy, Dick saved Sal Maroni's son, and Sal promised that he will answer if Dick asks? 
> 
> I mean on top of him dating Sonia Zucco in the Post Crisis New 52 transition and saving another Zucco son in a digital-first comic? 
> 
> Also, Nightwing's actions leading Zucco to return as a crime boss in Chicago after his wife and another son left him?
> 
> Can we please have all of them back just to muck things up a bit more? I may be able to have fun with all this.


Yes, because if all those connections already existed it would mean this run has wasted 5 issues in establishing Taylor super original character and that is not really all that special after all.

And screw over one one of the few suvirving parts of Dcik's origin's story. Because everything has to be connected and nothing ever happens that isn't rooted in your parents' past.

----------


## Frontier

> Is it a bad time to bring up that in New 52 Zero Year, as a circus boy, Dick saved Sal Maroni's son, and Sal promised that he will answer if Dick asks? 
> 
> I mean on top of him dating Sonia Zucco in the Post Crisis New 52 transition and saving another Zucco son in a digital-first comic? 
> 
> Also, Nightwing's actions leading Zucco to return as a crime boss in Chicago after his wife and another son left him?
> 
> Can we please have all of them back just to muck things up a bit more? I may be able to have fun with all this.


I don't even remember that. So much about the New 52 feels like a blur  :Stick Out Tongue: .

----------


## Restingvoice

> Yes, because if all those connections already existed it would mean this run has wasted 5 issues in establishing Taylor super original character and that is not really all that special after all.
> 
> And screw over one one of the few suvirving parts of Dcik's origin's story. Because everything has to be connected and nothing ever happens that isn't rooted in your parents' past.


Oh, I think Melinda can work, it's just Dick will have a different starting feeling for her instead of Zucco = bad. She is bad since she's using Blockbuster to get rid of the previous mayor but he doesn't know that yet, and just because he dated one and save the other doesn't mean Melinda will also be good, maybe this is the one that remains bad. 

Then plot-wise, Dick can use Sal's promise as a backup surprise plan if it's needed.

----------


## lemonpeace

I was hearing some chatter on this issue on twitter and I wanted to get you guy's take on the relationship between John and Melinda's mother. there appear to be a couple people who feel it reflects poorly on him because they feel he took advantage of a victim of human trafficking. I'm curious if any of you read it that way. I read the issue and I personally don't really get the feeling that that's the case. it reads to me more like they got together (for a time) out of genuine attraction despite her trauma, not because John took advantage it.

----------


## Drako

> I was hearing some chatter on this issue on twitter and I wanted to get you guy's take on the relationship between John and Melinda's mother. there appear to be a couple people who feel it reflects poorly on him *because they feel he took advantage of a victim of human trafficking*. I'm curious if any of you read it that way. I read the issue and I personally don't really get the feeling that that's the case. it reads to me more like they got together (for a time) out of genuine attraction despite her trauma, not because John took advantage it.


Makes zero sense, but thats what you expect of twitter.

----------


## Pohzee

I mean I can see how you could see that if you're really reading into it. But that's not how I read it and its certainly not the intention. This was as safe as could be, Taylor not trying to rock the boat

----------


## Restingvoice

Meili Lin spent years in the Circus since she was a young teenager by the looks of it, and we know John was born and raised in the Circus since his family's been there since the First Gray Son. That's not taking advantage of a mail order bride, that's childhood friend romance. With angst.

----------


## Vordan

> I was hearing some chatter on this issue on twitter and I wanted to get you guy's take on the relationship between John and Melinda's mother. there appear to be a couple people who feel it reflects poorly on him because they feel he took advantage of a victim of human trafficking. I'm curious if any of you read it that way. I read the issue and I personally don't really get the feeling that that's the case. it reads to me more like they got together (for a time) out of genuine attraction despite her trauma, not because John took advantage it.


Feels like a massive reach. Also Twitter decided that Taylor was a bigot because Barbara is walking around as Batgirl despite that being something he has zero control over and didnt choose to do so they kind of have it out for him (yeah I know, who am I to cast stones right?).

----------


## HsssH

> Meili Lin spent years in the Circus since she was a young teenager by the looks of it, and we know John was born and raised in the Circus since his family's been there since the First Gray Son. That's not taking advantage of a mail order bride, that's childhood friend romance. With angst.


That can't be true. She says that after Zucco took her back from the circus 6 months later Melinda was born and that "Tony's ego wouldn't allow him to voice what he suspected.". If she spent more than 3 months in the circus then there would be nothing to suspect - it would be obvious that Melinda is not Zucco's daughter. And considering who Zucco is? He probably would have forced an abortion in such case.

For timeline to make sense she had to get pregnant like a week after meeting John. To me it is same as "Romani smile", it doesn't mean that John used her, but Taylor tried to be real smart here and wrote things that can be seen in a negative light.

----------


## dropkickjake

Yeah, I think I've seen enough of this run to say that it isn't the best run of nightwing I've ever read. But its also far from bad. Its a pretty good comic that moves pretty dang slow.

----------


## Restingvoice

> That can't be true. She says that after Zucco took her back from the circus 6 months later Melinda was born and that "Tony's ego wouldn't allow him to voice what he suspected.". If she spent more than 3 months in the circus then there would be nothing to suspect - it would be obvious that Melinda is not Zucco's daughter. And considering who Zucco is? He probably would have forced an abortion in such case.
> 
> For timeline to make sense she had to get pregnant like a week after meeting John. To me it is same as "Romani smile", it doesn't mean that John used her, but Taylor tried to be real smart here and wrote things that can be seen in a negative light.


I assumed she's way younger when she arrived because of how the time-lapse in the circus was drawn, but I get what you mean about Zucco convincing himself. It needs to be a short time frame.

----------


## Claude

> I assumed she's way younger when she arrived because of how the time-lapse in the circus was drawn, but I get what you mean about Zucco convincing himself. It needs to be a short time frame.


It's a little odd - she looks much younger, but Taylor is at pains to have her say she was 23. Presumably to head off the issue of John dating her if they'd met when she was a vulnerable child.

----------


## Lady Nightwing

> I was hearing some chatter on this issue on twitter and I wanted to get you guy's take on the relationship between John and Melinda's mother. there appear to be a couple people who feel it reflects poorly on him because they feel he took advantage of a victim of human trafficking. I'm curious if any of you read it that way. I read the issue and I personally don't really get the feeling that that's the case. it reads to me more like they got together (for a time) out of genuine attraction despite her trauma, not because John took advantage it.


I've been seeing that too on my twitter. I don't buy it personally. It seems to be working on the premise that if someone has been sexually abused they can never have any sexual agency again. To me they just looked like a young couple in love.

I have my issues with this run but there is a vocal minority who despise it and Tom Taylor. Apparently he's ableist for writing Babs as able to walk.  :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## HsssH

From my experience young Asian women are often drawn as teenagers so I'd write it down on artist not making it consistent with the script.

----------


## Drako

People make weird and stupid connections to hate on something. 

Taylor already responded on Twitter about this claim, but was directed to a person with that weird take.

----------


## Restingvoice

I was looking up Taylor's Twitter for no reason whatsoever and instead found this answer to how are you going to update a classic circus setting for the modern era

"As a former circus person, I've already made sure there are no animals when we see Nightwing's circus in flashback."

Huh.
Neat.

----------


## Frontier

Nightwing is going to be in the upcoming Injustice animated film, voiced by Derek Philips.

----------


## Iclifton

> Nightwing is going to be in the upcoming Injustice animated film, voiced by Derek Philips.


Great, I am sure it will be an amazing showing of him dying by rock.

----------


## Digifiend

> Am I the only one seeing tension between Barbara and Koriand'r here ? She's calling Donna by her name but Kory by her hero name of Starfire.


Because Donna doesn't have a codename. It's consistent with Teen Titans Academy, where the kids call Kory "Miss Starfire" and Donna "Miss Troy".




> I feel like it would've been simpler and more in-character to just send Tim in. 
> 
> If they mention that, then fine. But they probably won't . 
> 
> Will she ever do it again, though?


Tim was right there with Babs. But he'd have needed to travel on foot, so maybe Bruce and the Titans were faster?




> he stopped blockbuster in two seconds


Can't hotlink Fandom images any more.

----------


## mrswing

Astounded at all the negativity here. For me, this is a great portrayal of Dick Grayson, beautiful art, an intriguing story with lots of future potential, and a nice shoutout to other Nightwing creators in the boat scene in #81. Sure, things can move faster (could have been a four-parter I guess) but I'm enjoying it.

----------


## Iclifton

> Astounded at all the negativity here. For me, this is a great portrayal of Dick Grayson, beautiful art, an intriguing story with lots of future potential, and a nice shoutout to other Nightwing creators in the boat scene in #81. Sure, things can move faster (could have been a four-parter I guess) but I'm enjoying it.


Same here. Just started my account and can`t believe how unhappy people are, especially considering how many bad runs we have had. While it may not be perfect, this run has been consistently good to great.

----------


## Drako

> Same here. Just started my account and can`t believe how unhappy people are, especially considering how many bad runs we have had. While it may not be perfect, this run has been consistently good to great.


Mostly here in this forum, because they want a different approach for his book than what we have right now. I understand some of the criticisms. But the word of mouth surrounding this run is pretty positive overall in other places.

Last issue was the weakest one so far, but i'm digging the run a lot.

----------


## Rac7d*

> Astounded at all the negativity here. For me, this is a great portrayal of Dick Grayson, beautiful art, an intriguing story with lots of future potential, and a nice shoutout to other Nightwing creators in the boat scene in #81. Sure, things can move faster (could have been a four-parter I guess) but I'm enjoying it.


That’s all that matters, that your enjoying it. Nightwing is flying off the shelfs so we know many are enjoying it too. It’s a lot fun, spectacular art, I can’t wait to see where we are a year from now. It’s also nice that it’s happening when so many outside projects  will occur while the books is running. Gothamknights Titans Injustice Young Justice

----------


## Fergus

> Great, I am sure it will be an amazing showing of him dying by rock.


Tom Taylor does write an amazing Dick Grayson  :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## Ascended

> Mostly here in this forum, because they want a different approach for his book than what we have right now. I understand some of the criticisms. But the word of mouth surrounding this run is pretty positive overall in other places.
> 
> Last issue was the weakest one so far, but i'm digging the run a lot.


Generally agreed. Is this the Nightwing book I would write? No. But is it a bad Nightwing book, that is doing damage to the character and getting halfass effort from DC? No. It *is* getting sucked into a crossover, which I'm not fond of, and I feel like Taylor owes us some fanservice and some hyper-competent, super awesome Dick Grayson scenes. But this is a solid book, and the best Nightwing has been in several years.

Think the last issue did a fair enough job of setting up the secret sister. Nobody comes off bad here, it builds on the circus background, which I approve of. But it also feels utterly unnecessary and troupe-ish. I'm down with expanding on Haly's and Zucco and Dick's circus days; those are underdeveloped parts of his mythos. But a secret sister? Raised by his enemy and now working with the mob? Come on man, a reasonably well written troupe is still a troupe.

Weakest issue thus far, but it wasn't the train wreck it could have been. Other than the concept itself being kinda cringe anyway.

----------


## Badou

I've been critical of this run but I think the Romani smile and Dick's dad possibly taking advantage of an abuse victim things are a bit of a stretch. The smile thing was a little weird, but I get that Taylor was trying to show it as a positive thing. Was just poorly done. 

Anyway, this was clearly the weakest issue. Overall my feelings on it are a bit weird. Usually I'd feel upset about the poor story choices, or even vindicated in how I feel like another Bludhaven run is falling into all the old trappings and again proving my position, but it just sucks that Redondo’s art is being wasted on a story that I think has very little actual substance. I get some out there think this is the greatest Nightwing run of all time, everyone can have their own opinions, but I just can't see it as that. 

As for the actual issue I just don’t think the Melinda story is very good. It just feels so unnecessary and trite. All I got while reading this issue is how quickly this will get retconned in the next reboot or how obviously these characters will get thrown into limbo when this run is over, and for Taylor to spend so much time on this run on it is just a poor decision on his part. I honestly think that Humphries small story with Guppy and his father in his run was more interesting and emotional than this. This issue felt even more decompressed and slow compared to the already slow moving story, and it doesn’t help that there is just one more issue until 3 months of some Tynion Batman event I have no interest in.

It all felt way too convoluted. So Dick’s parents before they were together rescued this Chinese bride that Tony Zucco was abusing and they beat up Zucco causing him to hold some grudge? And in the few months she was at the circus Dick’s dad knocked her up before Zucco somehow found her and took her back but to Bludhaven this time? And then she had Dick’s dad’s child while raising it as Zucco’s, but in the 8 years they were together Zucco always resented her and suspected the child wasn’t his? Why would Zucco even put up with or want this Chinese bride? Why would he not instantly dispose of her or the kid if he didn’t think the kid was his? And this screws over Sonia Zucco’s timeline too now. It feels so poorly thought-out. 

Then Melinda and her mom go back to Bludhaven after attempting reuniting with Dick’s dad before realizing he is with Mary now. So they settle in Bludhaven where Melinda grows up and gets involved with the politics and the mob because of her connection with Zucco, and is now going to be the new mayor of Bludhaven? Oh and she has secret FBI connections and knew Dick was Nightwing all along? Obviously there will be some more twists with her character as Taylor desperately tries to make her interesting, like she is connected with Heartless or something since Heartless is such a non character after 5 issues, but the whole secret sibling plot feels stale. With origins simplicity works best, and to try and jam all this in feels like too much. Way too many coincidences. Melinda’s character and story is easily the weakest part of this run and investing so much into trying build this run around her feels like such a waste of time. I feel like you could have just cut out the Melinda story entirely and just give me a story of Dick’s past at the circus or of his parents. Show how they met and fell in love. That would be way more interesting to me than seeing them used as props to try and build up this character in Melinda that I'm not interested in. I feel like there is so much you could do with Dick's past because it is so unique with the circus setting, but no one can quite figure it out in the comics. 

I’m also never going to like changing the reason Dick's parents died because I prefer Zucco killing them without some grudge revolving around Dick’s dad’s former lover. I liked their deaths being more random because it ties Dick’s origin more to Bruce’s own tragic origin, showing how innocent uninvolved people can be victims, but with Dick he had Bruce there to help him through it which creates a bond between them. That is all you need, but writers get so obsessed with trying to make Zucco into this recurring villain figure when that isn’t the point of his character in the first place. Dick was able to move on from being tied to his parents' deaths and their killer so you don't need to try and keep on having Dick get dragged back to dealing with Zucco over and over. It would be dumb if Joe Chill targeted Bruce’s parents because Thomas hooked up with Chill’s wife or something, and then Bruce had to constantly deal with Joe Chill and his kids over and over.  

Overall this issue highlighted my dislike for Bludhaven as a setting and why I don’t think it works for all the reasons I’ve stated before. Dick isn’t from there, he wasn’t raised there, he has no family there, he doesn’t have any friends there, he didn’t create any of his hero identities there, and so on. Writers are so desperate to try and give Dick some connection to the city because he has none and they will create stories like this. By trying to connect Zucco to Bludhaven and even giving Dick some long lost sister that is going to be the mayor, but it all feels so forced and unnatural to me and I don’t think it will work in the end.




> Probably the weakest issue so far. I feel like they could cut half of the in the past pages and still accomplish what they needed to. What’s more I thought the reveal was rather safe. *spoilers:*
> Dick’s parents don’t need to be sacred or blemish free. I kind of feel it would have been more impactful if John did cheat.
> *end of spoilers*


Dick's parents are barely characters. Trying to give them blemishes doesn't really accomplish anything I think because there is no real foundation to put those blemishes on. At the same time I remember you, along with myself, being very critical of how the Court of Owls turned Haly's Circus from a pristine memory from Dick's past into a nightmare. Where even a Mr Haly wasn't who we thought he was all along. So I don’t really see the point of trying to smear Dick’s dad when it doesn’t feel like it would accomplish anything.

----------


## Restingvoice

I'm re-reading Golden Age and noted that Tony Zucco used to be the mob that owns the town and he even owns the police which is the reason why Batman immediately took Dick. 

Then came Sal Maroni who caused Two-Face's transformation. 
However after Two-Face's origin is moved to before Dick, Sal became the higher mob
Then of course, automatically, because Batman Year One define the Italian mafia to be lead by The Roman Falcone, Maroni is not at the top. He answers to The Roman.

Which in turn, made Tony Zucco the third tier, a small bit mob and a bar owner working for the Maroni family instead of the owner of the town.  

Carmine was killed at the end of Long Halloween by Two-Face, but I don't remember if Sal survived. Shouldn't be. Two-Face would've gone after him first before Carmine. 

Zucco was given the electric chair in Golden Age, but released in Post-Crisis after Jason Todd died because he's going to testify I think but ended up assassinated, then in New 52 he's thought to be dead, but Sonia told Dick he's alive and living a new life in Chicago.

----------


## Godlike13

> Dick's parents are barely characters. Trying to give them blemishes doesn't really accomplish anything I think because there is no real foundation to put those blemishes on. At the same time I remember you, along with myself, being very critical of how the Court of Owls turned Haly's Circus from a pristine memory from Dick's past into a nightmare. Where even a Mr Haly wasn't who we thought he was all along. So I don’t really see the point of trying to smear Dick’s dad when it doesn’t feel like it would accomplish anything.


Your right. Dick's parents are barely characters. So giving Dick's parents blemishes, gives them some character. They don't need to be characterless saints. Dick's parent are dead. Reveling things or flaws about them isn't going to change their needed purpose of giving birth to Dick and then dying. There really is nothing more needed from them, and they are not something Dick can revisit as they need to be dead and inherently out of reach. Haly's on the other hand was Dick's home. It wasn't just a memory but a place and setting. It wasn't always around, but it was never far away to be of use when needed. The Court of Owls reveal effectively killed Haly's Circus as anything other then this now awful place. Not just in memories but in any further use. Its not like were talking about turning Dick's dad into a serial killer, which is more of less the level of what they turned Haly's into.

----------


## Badou

> I'm re-reading Golden Age and noted that Tony Zucco used to be the mob that owns the town and he even owns the police which is the reason why Batman immediately took Dick. 
> 
> Then came Sal Maroni who caused Two-Face's transformation. 
> However after Two-Face's origin is moved to before Dick, Sal became the higher mob
> Then of course, automatically, because Batman Year One define the Italian mafia to be lead by The Roman Falcone, Maroni is not at the top. He answers to The Roman.
> 
> Which in turn, made Tony Zucco the third tier, a small bit mob and a bar owner working for the Maroni family instead of the owner of the town.  
> 
> Carmine was killed at the end of Long Halloween by Two-Face, but I don't remember if Sal survived. Shouldn't be. Two-Face would've gone after him first before Carmine. 
> ...


Someone should do a breakdown in a comic or something about how all the main crime families are set up in Gotham. Like their organizational structure. Like this person is the head of the family, this person is the underboss, and so on, but I guess that would be a bit too mundane for modern comic stories. Where they want the Joker or some costume villain rampaging through the city. I think if given the option I do prefer Zucco being a smaller time criminal either on his own or maybe part of a crew from the bigger families. I think that would work better instead of trying to have Zucco be this big figure. 




> Your right. Dick's parents are barely characters. So giving Dick's parents blemishes, gives them some character. They don't need to be characterless saints. Dick's parent are dead. Reveling things or flaws about them isn't going to change their needed purpose of giving birth to Dick and then dying. There really is nothing more needed from them, and they are not something Dick can revisit as they need to be dead and inherently out of reach. Haly's on the other hand was Dick's home. It wasn't just a memory but a place and setting. It wasn't always around, but it was never far away to be of use when needed. The Court of Owls reveal effectively killed Haly's Circus as anything other then this now awful place. Not just in memories but in any further use. Its not like were talking about turning Dick's dad into a serial killer, which is more of less the level of what they turned Haly's into.


I just think that you need to have a foundation to hang those blemishes on first. So you need to establish how Dick's parents met, how they fell in love, how their relationship is, and the ups and downs in that relationship that would lead to one of them possibly cheating first. Where they feel like actual characters where an affair would actually matter, but I get that creators don't want to do that with Dick's parents because it then takes away Bruce as being the main focus of Dick's family.

----------


## Pohzee

If I'm remembering correctly from Detectice Comics #38, Dick's parents didn't didn't even die in Gotham. Bruce Wayne was visiting a nearby city and Boss Zucco had that city under his control. Not Gotham.

----------


## Restingvoice

> Someone should do a breakdown in a comic or something about how all the main crime families are set up in Gotham. Like their organizational structure. Like this person is the head of the family, this person is the underboss, and so on, but I guess that would be a bit too mundane for modern comic stories. Where they want the Joker or some costume villain rampaging through the city. I think if given the option I do prefer Zucco being a smaller time criminal either on his own or maybe part of a crew from the bigger families. I think that would work better instead of trying to have Zucco be this big figure. 
> 
> I just think that you need to have a foundation to hang those blemishes on first. So you need to establish how Dick's parents met, how they fell in love, how their relationship is, and the ups and downs in that relationship that would lead to one of them possibly cheating first. Where they feel like actual characters where an affair would actually matter, but I get that creators don't want to do that with Dick's parents because it then takes away Bruce as being the main focus of Dick's family.


Good point there. I know they're trapeze artists and Mary likes robins, but what are their hobbies? 

--

The structure of the crime families would change all the time too thanks to all the rivalries and gang war. 
One of the oldest family was The Bertinelli, moving to Gotham since it was still a frontier town
In Year One it was The Falcone, which includes Maroni and Zucco
Before The Falcone, there were The Calabrese, Falcone's mentor
After Falcone, it was The Penguin
In the 2000s, Black Mask won the War Games and became the ruler, until Selina killed him
Early 2010s, Penguin is at the top, until Carmine's back for revenge
Later, Selina inherited the Calabrese name and became the boss of all bosses
After that it seems The Penguin came out on top again where every criminals answer to him

----------


## Frontier

> Good point there. I know they're trapeze artists and Mary likes robins, but what are their hobbies? 
> 
> --
> 
> The structure of the crime families would change all the time too thanks to all the rivalries and gang war. 
> One of the oldest family was The Bertinelli, moving to Gotham since it was still a frontier town
> In Year One it was The Falcone, which includes Maroni and Zucco
> Before The Falcone, there were The Calabrese, Falcone's mentor
> After Falcone, it was The Penguin
> ...


I feel like there was some kind of crime family diagram in _Long Halloween._

----------


## Restingvoice

> I feel like there was some kind of crime family diagram in _Long Halloween._


Yeah. 

Oh I thought it's just the Falcone-Vitti, but it's all of them at that time



Except Zucco since he's only an underling and appeared in Dark Victory

----------


## AmiMizuno

You guys think we will get a Nightwing animated movie or at least a Dick Grayson animated movie with the new universe?

----------


## Rac7d*

> You guys think we will get a Nightwing animated movie or at least a Dick Grayson animated movie with the new universe?


We can dream, most movies are just outline's of what they would like to do in live action
so hopefully

----------


## WonderNight

> You guys think we will get a Nightwing animated movie or at least a Dick Grayson animated movie with the new universe?


Don't believe so, nope!

----------


## Aahz

> You guys think we will get a Nightwing animated movie or at least a Dick Grayson animated movie with the new universe?


I think even if they would do a Dick centric movie it would have still either Batman or Titans in the Title. Since those are just the Bigger brands.

I mean they allready did that a number of Times:
- Son of Batman (and to a Degree also Batman vs. Robin and the Titans movies) and essentally a Damian movie
- Batman: Bad Blood was iirc Dick centric (but I might remember that wrong)
- Death in the Family had Jason as the main character
- Batman: Soul of the Dragon was also more a Richard Dragon movie

----------


## Badou

Yeah, Nightwing isn't a big enough brand to get its own movie I'd think. Why make a Nightwing one when they can just make a Batman movie instead? Or they will just fold him into a Titans movie. Aahz summed it up well. The opportunities Dick got to be the focus of a movie he ended up getting pushed to a supporting role even when he was being Batman. Like Dick taking over as Batman could have been a big movie, but they decided to focus on Damian as Robin instead. Same with the Court of Owls. Somehow even that ended up being a Damian movie if I remember correctly, lol. Though I get in the New 52 movies Damian was kind of their main focus. 

Nightwing just doesn't have many stories that would translate well into an animated movie I think. Dick's best shot at getting a movie is maybe him being the focus of a Dark Victory animated movie. Since DC is animating the Long Halloween movie now and maybe Dark Victory will be a sequel, but I don't know.

----------


## WonderNight

DC just has not done a good enough job of building up Nightwing as a solo brand. But at this point I don't believe Dc even what's too. There happy with dick as a mid tier 
batman support character and to be truthful I believe most nightwing fans are happy with it also.

As long as Nightwing is in Gotham/Bludhaven with the batfamily and babs fighting some bat villains from time to time most Nightwing fans are happy, so I don't blame dc.

----------


## HsssH

Thinking about all the convenient coincidences and perfect timing considering Melinda's birth... wouldn't it be logical for Dick to try to contact Raptor and ask him if any of it actually happened?




> Then Melinda and her mom go back to Bludhaven after attempting reuniting with Dick’s dad before realizing he is with Mary now. So they settle in Bludhaven where Melinda grows up and gets involved with the politics *and the mob because of her connection with Zucco*, and is now going to be the new mayor of Bludhaven?


I don't get how that is even supposed to work. Earlier issue said that she was raised by Maroni crime family, but this one ends with the idea that they just ran away from Zucco. How would they end up with Maroni family? Why would that family even take them in? I'm sure that someone can write an explanation on how it all played out, but from what we have seen so far it doesn't really connect for me.

----------


## Aahz

> DC just has not done a good enough job of building up Nightwing as a solo brand.


Even with more investment I don't see them make a Nightwing movie without Batman (even if Batman ends up with a smaller role), simply because the Batman brand is just that strong.

I mean they also put Batman in Justice League Dark and in "Assault on Arkham" (which was essentially a Suicide Squad Movie).

And the other Question is of course if there is an Nightwing story, that is popular enough and has the right length for a movie. I mean most of the Direct to DVD DC makes are at least loose adaptations of popular comic story lines.

----------


## Avi

> *Thinking about all the convenient coincidences and perfect timing considering Melinda's birth... wouldn't it be logical for Dick to try to contact Raptor and ask him if any of it actually happened?
> *
> 
> 
> I don't get how that is even supposed to work. Earlier issue said that she was raised by Maroni crime family, but this one ends with the idea that they just ran away from Zucco. How would they end up with Maroni family? Why would that family even take them in? I'm sure that someone can write an explanation on how it all played out, but from what we have seen so far it doesn't really connect for me.


Dick probably would ask Raptor if the story wouldn't conveniently ignore everything that isn't the Ric arc and has nothing to do with the barest of bones of Dick's character.

Though there could be the assumption by Dick that Raptor is still dead. Maybe we'll get the answer to that next month in Robin.

I liked Melinda in Taylor's first Issue but by now she really is one of the most convenient characters ever. I hope (at least) half of what's been revealed so far is a lie.

----------


## Arsenal

Honestly the only Dick focused story likely to get a movie adaption is his run as Batman.

----------


## Drako

The only time people mention "brand" when it comes to movies is with Nightwing. But we live in a world where Bloodshot and Morbius have movies.

The only reason they don't make a Nightwing movie is because Warner is incompetend. Marvel made movies about Guardians of the Galaxy, Ant Man and now the Eternals. Nightwing concept is not harder to sell than any of thoses, he is the Robin who grew-up, it's the universal story about leving your parents home.

----------


## Aahz

@Drako
I was referring to animated Direct-to-DVD-movies, not theatrical live action.

That's a different and way more niche market.

----------


## Restingvoice

> Thinking about all the convenient coincidences and perfect timing considering Melinda's birth... wouldn't it be logical for Dick to try to contact Raptor and ask him if any of it actually happened?
> 
> 
> 
> I don't get how that is even supposed to work. Earlier issue said that she was raised by Maroni crime family, but this one ends with the idea that they just ran away from Zucco. How would they end up with Maroni family? Why would that family even take them in? I'm sure that someone can write an explanation on how it all played out, but from what we have seen so far it doesn't really connect for me.


Don't know about the current lore but in Dark Victory, Zucco works for Maroni.
Now that I mentioned it, since Dark Victory is one of Dick's origin, I think they did read it, and if that's the case the way it make sense is the safest place to be away from Zucco would be going up. 
Can't touch the boss' woman.
It does sound kinda funny if Mei went from one mob boss' bride to another, but maybe Maroni's more decent. What I remember from Maroni he is a higher class man than Zucco since he's a boss of his own family, while Zucco's more like a thug.... or that Maroni's eyeing Mei too and found her first while she's on the run with the promse to keep them safe, who knows.




> You guys think we will get a Nightwing animated movie or at least a Dick Grayson animated movie with the new universe?


The first question WB exec would ask when someone pitch it will be why should we do this when we can do Batman

----------


## Rac7d*

> Yeah, Nightwing isn't a big enough brand to get its own movie I'd think. Why make a Nightwing one when they can just make a Batman movie instead? Or they will just fold him into a Titans movie. Aahz summed it up well. The opportunities Dick got to be the focus of a movie he ended up getting pushed to a supporting role even when he was being Batman. Like Dick taking over as Batman could have been a big movie, but they decided to focus on Damian as Robin instead. Same with the Court of Owls. Somehow even that ended up being a Damian movie if I remember correctly, lol. Though I get in the New 52 movies Damian was kind of their main focus. 
> 
> Nightwing just doesn't have many stories that would translate well into an animated movie I think. Dick's best shot at getting a movie is maybe him being the focus of a Dark Victory animated movie. Since DC is animating the Long Halloween movie now and maybe Dark Victory will be a sequel, but I don't know.


Battle for the cowl would be the storyline I can see as a movie

----------


## Frontier

> I think even if they would do a Dick centric movie it would have still either Batman or Titans in the Title. Since those are just the Bigger brands.
> 
> I mean they allready did that a number of Times:
> - Son of Batman (and to a Degree also Batman vs. Robin and the Titans movies) and essentally a Damian movie
> - Batman: Bad Blood was iirc Dick centric (but I might remember that wrong)
> - Death in the Family had Jason as the main character
> - Batman: Soul of the Dragon was also more a Richard Dragon movie


He was effectively the lead of _Bad Blood._ I'd say he was also one of the central characters of Judas Contract.

----------


## Rac7d*

> He was effectively the lead of _Bad Blood._ I'd say he was also one of the central characters of Judas Contract.


I feel as if Batwoman usurped that from him

----------


## Confuzzled

> The first question WB exec would ask when someone pitch it will be why should we do this when we can do Batman


Simple: Nightwing is cheaper to make and will bring in more women and teen girls than Batman, while still retaining the male audience.

Also, is it that much of a stretch to imagine that in markets like China that vastly preferred Aquaman to something like Batman v Superman, the brighter Dick might be a bigger pull than brooding Bruce?

----------


## OBrianTallent

I just think that you need to have a foundation to hang those blemishes on first. So you need to establish how Dick's parents met, how they fell in love, how their relationship is, and the ups and downs in that relationship that would lead to one of them possibly cheating first. Where they feel like actual characters where an affair would actually matter, but I get that creators don't want to do that with Dick's parents because it then takes away Bruce as being the main focus of Dick's family.[/QUOTE]

My understanding was this happened before his parents became an item.   Mary might have been a a part of the circus, but she and John hadn't established a relationship at that time.  Maybe it would be a nice to have a back up to tell the story of his parents, throw in some of the mob drama and fill in the gaps.  Honestly though, how much do we know about the Waynes?  a little more, but honestly more about the lineage than the actual parents.

----------


## Aahz

> Simple: Nightwing is cheaper


In live action but not really for animation and that's what was asked here.

----------


## Ascended

> You guys think we will get a Nightwing animated movie or at least a Dick Grayson animated movie with the new universe?


With the new regime in charge, I don't know. 

I still very much doubt it will happen. Hell, if they're starting over with a new shared cartoon universe (or whatever they're doing, I'm not a cartoon guy) then Dick will likely be Robin, at least for a while. 

But while I don't think it's likely at all, I can't say it's as unlikely/impossible as it was in Didio's era. 

I wouldn't bet on it, but the only thing that ever held Nightwing back was WB/DC's incompetence, and a lot of those guys have been fired. AT&T have already put some effort and talent into the character (more than DC has in years), there's several high profile larger media projects with Dick in a (co)lead role, a Hollywood guy is actively pursuing a film deal with Dick, and if Nightwing gets a good chunk of credit for any success these things get, I can see a world where AT&T decides to give him a shot as a solo project.

Again, not getting my hopes up. In the very unlikely event it actually happens, it'd still be *years* away. But the odds of it happening do feel a tiny, tiny bit higher. I expect that Dick will continue to be a sales-draw for Titans stuff, and a senior sidekick in Bat stuff, and if he gets a shot as a solo IP it'll only be because someone like McKay badgered the Studio into submission. But I think now, with new guys in charge, such a thing might require a little less badgering.  :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## dietrich

> With the new regime in charge, I don't know. 
> 
> I still very much doubt it will happen. Hell, if they're starting over with a new shared cartoon universe (or whatever they're doing, I'm not a cartoon guy) then Dick will likely be Robin, at least for a while. 
> 
> But while I don't think it's likely at all, I can't say it's as unlikely/impossible as it was in Didio's era. 
> 
> I wouldn't bet on it, but the only thing that ever held Nightwing back was WB/DC's incompetence, and a lot of those guys have been fired. AT&T have already put some effort and talent into the character (more than DC has in years), there's several high profile larger media projects with Dick in a (co)lead role, a Hollywood guy is actively pursuing a film deal with Dick, and if Nightwing gets a good chunk of credit for any success these things get, I can see a world where AT&T decides to give him a shot as a solo project.
> 
> Again, not getting my hopes up. In the very unlikely event it actually happens, it'd still be *years* away. But the odds of it happening do feel a tiny, tiny bit higher. I expect that Dick will continue to be a sales-draw for Titans stuff, and a senior sidekick in Bat stuff, and if he gets a shot as a solo IP it'll only be because someone like McKay badgered the Studio into submission. But I think now, with new guys in charge, such a thing might require a little less badgering.


You mean Discovery.

----------


## dietrich

I think Dick's chances of getting an animated movie are higher than most. Even during the Didio era WB still tagged him for a solo movie. That's says a lot.

And no it doesn't matter that Live action is cheaper than animation. The only down side is that the animated universe squandered some brilliant Dick Grayson story ideas.

The court of owls and Dick connection to them was pointlessly hacked on to Born to kill with the Court replacing Nobody which was a stupid idea.

Dick as Batman concept was wasted with Bad Blood some thought it'd be great to cover Morrison's entire batman run in one movie.

smh

----------


## Rac7d*

Seeing Harley in the injustice preview reminds me I blame her for dicks death

----------


## Claude

Teen Titans Academy was quite good for Dick this week, I thought - I know some people won't like that the Bat Pack are specifically Batman fanboys with little time for Nightwing, but the issue put some good work emphasising that they were wrong.

Also, in this interview for his new Jon Kent series, Tom Taylor is a little more direct than in some of his previous hints:

_"I think there’s something so very Superman about Nightwing that I love. There’s a reason they’re both kind of the heart of the DC Universe. And not to spoil anything, but there is a good chance that Nightwing and Jon will share some pages in the future."_

https://aiptcomics.com/2021/07/27/to...-for-superman/

So whether that's a formal crossover between the two titles, or a guest spot from one character in the other's book, that should at least cheer up the people who want Dick to meet more non Bat-Family characters under Taylor! And also, _very_ hard to imagine a conversation between Dick and Jon that doesn't touch on Dick's friendship with Clark/the Kryptonian origin of the "Nightwing" name - which is nice.

----------


## Frontier

> I feel as if Batwoman usurped that from him


Dick drove the plot more than Kate did in my opinion.

----------


## Badou

Dick's death in Injustice has to be the dumbest death I can remember. It is going to suck to see it animated. Taylor did him so dirty, lol.

----------


## Rac7d*

> Dick's death in Injustice has to be the dumbest death I can remember. It is going to suck to see it animated. Taylor did him so dirty, lol.


The game was before the comic he just filled in the blanks


Apparently dick is the father in I am not starfire

----------


## Frontier

> Dick's death in Injustice has to be the dumbest death I can remember. It is going to suck to see it animated. Taylor did him so dirty, lol.


There's always the chance they'll change it from the comic. 



> Apparently dick is the father in I am not starfire


I kind of figured.

----------


## SiegePerilous02

> Dick's death in Injustice has to be the dumbest death I can remember. It is going to suck to see it animated. Taylor did him so dirty, lol.


Maybe Dick got some fourth wall breaking self awareness and just took himself out of this crap while the getting was still good.

----------


## Vordan

> Dick's death in Injustice has to be the dumbest death I can remember. It is going to suck to see it animated. Taylor did him so dirty, lol.


I can *almost* see what he was trying to do. He had to have Damian kill Dick, but he didn’t want to have Damian do so _deliberately_ so he just did it in the most stupid over the top way that still made it so Damian wasn’t actually trying to kill Dick. But it’s still f****** stupid and insulting so he failed.

----------


## Avi

I'd still like to see a more accurate Morrison Batman & Robin animation, but I too think Bad Blood was a pretty good movie for Dick. Better than the others at least.

I hope they change the Injustice death a little. Just a tweak to make it less insulting.




> Teen Titans Academy was quite good for Dick this week, I thought - I know some people won't like that the Bat Pack are specifically Batman fanboys with little time for Nightwing, but the issue put some good work emphasising that they were wrong.
> 
> Also, in this interview for his new Jon Kent series, Tom Taylor is a little more direct than in some of his previous hints:
> 
> _"I think theres something so very Superman about Nightwing that I love. Theres a reason theyre both kind of the heart of the DC Universe. And not to spoil anything, but there is a good chance that Nightwing and Jon will share some pages in the future."_
> 
> https://aiptcomics.com/2021/07/27/to...-for-superman/
> 
> So whether that's a formal crossover between the two titles, or a guest spot from one character in the other's book, that should at least cheer up the people who want Dick to meet more non Bat-Family characters under Taylor! And also, _very_ hard to imagine a conversation between Dick and Jon that doesn't touch on Dick's friendship with Clark/the Kryptonian origin of the "Nightwing" name - which is nice.


Yeah, from what I've heard and seen TTA was better to Nightwing than in the last Issues. Sheridan's reference to Taylor's and Redondo's run worked this time. But imo it's still a bit obvious that Sheridan just has to hammer home that Dick is bad with relationships. It's Sheridan's humor, I guess. But it doesn't make me look forward to the possible exploration of Dick's past as Red X under Sheridan's pen.

Jon and Dick finally meeting sounds good. Especially if they talk about Clark and the Nightwing origin with a bit conversation about Damian thrown into the mix.

----------


## Lal

For anyone who missed it - Dick was in the last issue of the other history of the DC universe and was portrayed several times as an insacure man-child womanizer (in those exact words), who "macked women".

Ridley didn't stop smearing him in this issue.

Here are just two examples -

ohdcu - 1.jpgohdcu - 2.jpg

----------


## John Venus

Note that this is just Anissa's perception and may not entirely be accurate. We've seen characters do cynical take aways on Superman only to be proven wrong later on.  Ridley is not going to do that for every characters but the gist of it is there.   

It also reads to me as an criticism of that iteration of Outsiders especially the parts where Anissa talks about the team's dynamics, functions and how they worked together. It really was an era where creators where trying to be edgy and mature in a juvenile way by including lots of sex, violence, fanservice and dysfunction all of the sake of it so Ridley is trying to work with what he got by trying to add more depth and internal logic behind the characters actions.  Even Anissa's criticisms of Roy and Dick are well within the parameters of how they were characterized during that period. Even the fandom has this perception of Dick being this ladies man who sleeps with whomever and you are going to find people who think that makes him the coolest guy and people who think that takes away from him character and some who think it contradicts his NTT characterization of being a serious monogamist.

----------


## Avi

Dick can't catch a break, lol. But I agree with John Venus, playing with limited povs, misconceptions and the then popular characterization is Ridley's thing in Other History.

Yang's Dick Grayson in Batman/Superman continues to be a delight. I really enjoy what Yang is doing with Supes and the Dynamic Duo. More of that, please.

----------


## Aahz

"The Other History" feels to me often more like criticism on poor creative decisions in old comics, than like really doing something interesting with the characters ...

----------


## HsssH

> "The Other History" feels to me often more like criticism on poor creative decisions in old comics, than like really doing something interesting with the characters ...


Yeah and thats why ended up dropping it. In such story blame is shifted entirely on the characters and makes them look bad with silver lining being "well, thats just what that character thinks". I'd simply prefer if stupid/bad decisions were ignored, retconed away or given additional context that would make them look better.

----------


## Lady Nightwing

So I got the I am not Starfire book because I'm weak  :Frown: 

I can't really recommend it, even if you like the YA line. The quality is way below, say Harley Quinn Breaking glass and more like Gotham High.

If you're thinking of buying it for Dick/Kory content I wouldn't bother.

*spoilers:*
It is heavily implied that Dick is Mandys father but we're never given any indication as to why he didn't help raise her. Which is weird because he is portrayed as still being very close to Starfire
*end of spoilers*

----------


## Claude

> Yang's Dick Grayson in Batman/Superman continues to be a delight. I really enjoy what Yang is doing with Supes and the Dynamic Duo. More of that, please.



Yep! Really hope that Robin And Batman is 1) a Bruce And Dick Dynamic Duo/Glory Years book, and 2) written by Yang. Reiss carrying over would be great too.

----------


## Restingvoice

> "The Other History" feels to me often more like criticism on poor creative decisions in old comics, than like really doing something interesting with the characters ...


Which is why I'm never interested in the first place... and I think I said it in that thread... we know why the heroes can't solve real world problem, so why even make a book like that? Addressing outside-story problem with an in-story explanation doesn't work unless it was also in-story problem.

I guess the point is "this is what you make these characters do", it's shaming the decision through the characters, the brand, so "unless you change it from now on, there will be a next book addressing that and your heroes and your brand will look bad" , but I think Twitter already done that in real life and DC gets money from publishing a self-shaming book.

----------


## John Venus

The parts where they talk about the real world stuff like Iran or the murders in New Orleans were what? Two per pages per every issue. I was way more intrigued by getting to see these characters internal lives and thoughts that also utilized their decades long history, both the good and bad parts. In most cases, I prefer writers who acknowledge the less flattering depictions of characters and then try to make it work by adding more nuance to their interaction.   

Anissa's assessment of Dick and Roy are fair given the characterization during that period. Maybe if Dick and Roy were characterized closer to how they were during Wolfman/Perez era, she would have better assessment of them. Though she does bring up a good point, why does Roy hook up with women who have deep seated trauma or mental issues (Donna Troy, Cheshire, Grace Choi)?

----------


## Frontier

> The parts where they talk about the real world stuff like Iran or the murders in New Orleans were what? Two per pages per every issue. I was way more intrigued by getting to see these characters internal lives and thoughts that also utilized their decades long history, both the good and bad parts. In most cases, I prefer writers who acknowledge the less flattering depictions of characters and then try to make it work by adding more nuance to their interaction.   
> 
> Anissa's assessment of Dick and Roy are fair given the characterization during that period. Maybe if Dick and Roy were characterized closer to how they were during Wolfman/Perez era, she would have better assessment of them. Though she does bring up a good point, why does Roy hook up with women who have deep seated trauma or mental issues (Donna Troy, Cheshire, Grace Choi)?


Well, Cheshire is one thing, but Donna's usually put together when not dealing with origin issues.

----------


## John Venus

Emphasis on 'usually'.

----------


## Ascended

> Though she does bring up a good point, why does Roy hook up with women who have deep seated trauma or mental issues (Donna Troy, Cheshire, Grace Choi)?


I figure Roy is attracted to women who're as messed up as he is. Aren't most people? 

This isn't the thread for getting into Other History, I'll just say that I've enjoyed it. Ridley has done a fine job of getting into the characters' heads and seeing what makes them tick, then digging through their history to get their spin on things.

----------


## AmiMizuno

We have the designs of Nightwing in Injustice. Let's hope they make his death better.

E7aw8r9XMAMEsHe.jpg

----------


## Light of Justice

> We have the designs of Nightwing in Injustice. Let's hope they make his death better.
> 
> E7aw8r9XMAMEsHe.jpg


I don't know if it's Dick death scene or not (and I don't remember if Dick ever fought with Damian in Injustice except when he died), but an Injustice animated leak has Dick fought Damian in Batcave (In comic they were supposed to fight in Arkham Asylum). And Damian already gets a hold on Dick's baton, just like he did before Dick's death. So...........less spectator? is that will make it better....?

----------


## Frontier

> I figure Roy is attracted to women who're as messed up as he is. Aren't most people? 
> 
> This isn't the thread for getting into Other History, I'll just say that I've enjoyed it. Ridley has done a fine job of getting into the characters' heads and seeing what makes them tick, then digging through their history to get their spin on things.


Am I the only person who thinks Donna is pretty normal in-spite of all the origins :P? 



> We have the designs of Nightwing in Injustice. Let's hope they make his death better.
> 
> Attachment 111952


Accurate enough:



I'm guessing Damian more outright kills him in this.

----------


## Grayson - The Dark Heir

> I don't know if it's Dick death scene or not (and I don't remember if Dick ever fought with Damian in Injustice except when he died), but an Injustice animated leak has Dick fought Damian in Batcave (In comic they were supposed to fight in Arkham Asylum). And Damian already gets a hold on Dick's baton, just like he did before Dick's death. So...........less spectator? is that will make it better....?


This is what happens before his death in the next issue iirc. They fight in the Batcave, Damian catches Dick's Escrima stick, throws it back, and Dick catches it.
Dick dies at the Asylum because Damian gets angry and throws the Escrima stick, thinking Dick would catch it like always, but this is during a break out so of course he's too distracted to catch it. That's when everything happens. 

This looks to be adapting it very directly, which is honestly not a good thing lol. I really don't want to deal with his death scene going viral _again._

----------


## Badou

It is funny how no matter what Taylor does in his Nightwing run it probably won't be as impactful or long lasting as his Nightwing death in Injustice because of how big Injustice got. I can already see the YouTube clip of it getting so many views and the comments being hilarious, haha.

----------


## HsssH

Is Dick's death important to the plot? Can't they just remove since it doesn't look like anyone actually likes it.

----------


## Avi

> We have the designs of Nightwing in Injustice. Let's hope they make his death better.
> 
> Attachment 111952


I don't understand this need to give Nightwing artificial bulk (the shoulder guards). It's fine, but I wouldn't say it's good.




> This is what happens before his death in the next issue iirc. They fight in the Batcave, Damian catches Dick's Escrima stick, throws it back, and Dick catches it.
> Dick dies at the Asylum because Damian gets angry and throws the Escrima stick, thinking Dick would catch it like always, but this is during a break out so of course he's too distracted to catch it. That's when everything happens. 
> 
> This looks to be adapting it very directly, which is honestly not a good thing lol. I really don't want to deal with his death scene going viral _again._


Gah, hate it. The set-up to Dick's death just shows how immature Damian is. 

If they keep it overly comic accurate, I hope Clark and Dick get their two short scenes before Dick's demise.

----------


## Vordan

> Is Dick's death important to the plot? Can't they just remove since it doesn't look like anyone actually likes it.


It has to happen because the games have Damian becoming Nightwing and Batman hating him for killing Dick. So it’s not something they can change, and frankly you shouldn’t expect the animation guys not to take a dump on Dick lol.

----------


## Light of Justice

> Is Dick's death important to the plot? Can't they just remove since it doesn't look like anyone actually likes it.


Bruce angst is the most important thing for DC. It also served the "my son killed my another son" plot so it doubles the angst. And I think in the game some heroes joined Batman's side because of their relation with Dick, like Starfire.

----------


## Digifiend

> I don't know if it's Dick death scene or not (and I don't remember if Dick ever fought with Damian in Injustice except when he died), but an Injustice animated leak has Dick fought Damian in Batcave (In comic they were supposed to fight in Arkham Asylum). And Damian already gets a hold on Dick's baton, just like he did before Dick's death. So...........less spectator? is that will make it better....?


Nice touch in the background. That's Dick's Robin costume, and Tim's second (One Year Later) Robin costume, right? Is that third one Tim's original suit?

----------


## Frontier

> Nice touch in the background. That's Dick's Robin costume, and Tim's second (One Year Later) Robin costume, right? Is that third one Tim's original suit?


Looks like it with the belt and green pants.

----------


## Rac7d*

I am so pumped
For this .  

http://https://twitter.com/dctitans/...244661255?s=21

----------


## Restingvoice

> I don't understand this need to give Nightwing artificial bulk (the shoulder guards). It's fine, but I wouldn't say it's good.


It's the movies. Ever since they put armor on Batman 89 and subsequent movies, every time they turn an adaptation into realist 3D, they add armor to everyone, since it's the mark of realism that these street levels won't survive without armor. 

I think Injustice 2 the game has it worst because they have gear system, meaning everyone's gonna have random pieces of armor mismatching depending on the stats bonus you want, though it started in the Injustice comic too with characters like Batwoman and Huntress having armored masks.

----------


## Frontier

> It's the movies. Ever since they put armor on Batman 89 and subsequent movies, every time they turn an adaptation into realist 3D, they add armor to everyone, since it's the mark of realism that these street levels won't survive without armor. 
> 
> I think Injustice 2 the game has it worst because they have gear system, meaning everyone's gonna have random pieces of armor mismatching depending on the stats bonus you want, though it started in the Injustice comic too with characters like Batwoman and Huntress having armored masks.


Armor, armor and more armor  :Wink: .

----------


## Claude

If "Robin and Batman" is still coming out in 2021 as, I think, was first announced - surely we'd need to be hearing about it soon?

In fact, talking of these 2021 launch titles teased earlier in the year - Taylor and Williamson are teasing some plans being cooked between them. The sensible answer is a Nightwing/Robin crossover of some kind, or a Supersons crossover. (Or both). But I'd forgotten that Williamson is launching the new Deathstroke title....

----------


## Vordan

> If "Robin and Batman" is still coming out in 2021 as, I think, was first announced - surely we'd need to be hearing about it soon?
> 
> In fact, talking of these 2021 launch titles teased earlier in the year - Taylor and Williamson are teasing some plans being cooked between them. The sensible answer is a Nightwing/Robin crossover of some kind, or a Supersons crossover. (Or both). But I'd forgotten that Williamson is launching the new Deathstroke title....


We still have Nov and Dec solicits left, so if we get news about RaB it will likely come either next week or next month.

----------


## Drako

Art from Robin #5

----------


## Frontier

Steph looks great there  :Smile: .

----------


## Rac7d*

Talon has been Ducks most consistent foe over the last 10 years right ?

----------


## Drako

Defacer is in the King Shark book. The first page is her vandalizing a Nightwing Statue that apparently Bludhaven has now.

----------


## Frontier

> Defacer is in the King Shark book. The first page is her vandalizing a Nightwing Statue that apparently Bludhaven has now.


I see there's still some hard feelings after the breakup...

----------


## Drako

> I see there's still some hard feelings after the breakup...


She said he didn't return her calls and that was she was mad at him, but in the next page she explained that it happened when he was Ric, she didn't know and she forgave him.

----------


## Claude

> Talon has been Ducks most consistent foe over the last 10 years right ?


Cobb? Off the top of my head, they met in the original Court Of Owls story and again under Jurgens during Ricgate - am I forgetting a third meeting?

I know Seeley's run advertised an appearance in the arc that brought back Dr Hurt that never happened, either the issue before or after Pyg - I always assumed it was reshuffled when it tied more directly into Metal.

----------


## HsssH

> Defacer is in the King Shark book. The first page is her vandalizing a Nightwing Statue that apparently Bludhaven has now.


It is digital first weekly?

----------


## Drako

> It is digital first weekly?


Yes. But it's possible to see what i was talking about here:

https://m.comixology.com/Suicide-Squ...l-comic/954684

----------


## Badou

She is in prison now? So much for her turning her life around and helping other reformed villains.

----------


## Frontier

> She is in prison now? So much for her turning her life around and helping other reformed villains.


And all because she overreacted over "Ric." She basically violated her parole and got sent to prison over nothing.

(And Waller really must give a @#$% if their therapist is Harley).

----------


## WonderNight

> I see there's still some hard feelings after the breakup...


Once you go Dick you can't quit!

----------


## Digifiend

> And all because she overreacted over "Ric." She basically violated her parole and got sent to prison over nothing.
> 
> (And Waller really must give a @#$% if their therapist is Harley).


Wait, Harley's still working with Waller? But she's no longer in the Suicide Squad and is working with Batman instead.

----------


## JackJustMetMartin

https://twitter.com/TomTaylorMade/st...10681489018881

Screenshot 2021-08-07 111949.jpg

----------


## Badou

> Wait, Harley's still working with Waller? But she's no longer in the Suicide Squad and is working with Batman instead.


This is just for the movie synergy. Since it is from the Suicide Squad King Shark #1 that is being used for the movie promotion. It might be set in continuity (whatever that is these days) but it doesn't really mean much.

----------


## Pohzee

> https://twitter.com/TomTaylorMade/st...10681489018881
> 
> Screenshot 2021-08-07 111949.jpg


Well yeah, but he was describing what he was doing with Melinda Zucco as huge and gamechanging too. And that was met with collective "Ugh, really?"s and "So what?"s.

What's interesting is that upcoming trade collections indicate that Fear State plus 87-88 and Annual #1 will be collected. So I don't think that that will be a whole arc following the crossover.

----------


## HsssH

Heartless was supposed to be a big deal as well, but I think everyone forgot that he even exists by now.

----------


## Pohzee

> Heartless was supposed to be a big deal as well, but I think everyone forgot that he even exists by now.


"Who is Heartless?" did not have it's intended meaning  :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## Frontier

> Heartless was supposed to be a big deal as well, but I think everyone forgot that he even exists by now.


I foresee him going the way of all forgettable new writer villains.

----------


## Vordan

> Heartless was supposed to be a big deal as well, but I think everyone forgot that he even exists by now.


That his debut was immediately undercut first with Dick’s new sister and now Fear State hijacking the book does not help his chances.

----------


## Rac7d*

> Heartless was supposed to be a big deal as well, but I think everyone forgot that he even exists by now.


Since issue 3 ? 
 You guys are never happy

----------


## Drako

> Since issue 3 ? 
>  You guys are never happy


Don't know if people here watch\read One Piece, but this thread always remind me of Usopp.  :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## Ascended

> Well yeah, but he was describing what he was doing with Melinda Zucco as huge and gamechanging too. And that was met with collective "Ugh, really?"s and "So what?"s.
> 
> What's interesting is that upcoming trade collections indicate that Fear State plus 87-88 and Annual #1 will be collected. So I don't think that that will be a whole arc following the crossover.


I think there might be some friction between what Taylor considers a big deal and what the fandom thinks of as a big deal.

Learning you have a secret half sister *is* a big deal. Especially if that person is working for a guy who has tried to kill you most of your life. But it's a very small, personal kind of big deal, not a "brand new direction! Dick's now a stripper in Vegas and changed his name officially to Discowing!" big deal, yknow? 

Like, I expect Dick's big reveal in 87, his big idea, to be some kind of charity-business thing designed to do with Alfred's money the stuff Bruce casually drops doing but never focuses on. Social development programs, stuff like that. And Dick funding his own NPO is a big change for him on a personal level (it'll be another job he won't stick to that we can add to the list!) but it's not the kind of game changer fans expect when we see the worlds "bold new thing."

We'll see what we see.

----------


## Twice-named

> Like, I expect Dick's big reveal in 87, his big idea, to be some kind of charity-business thing designed to do with Alfred's money the stuff Bruce casually drops doing but never focuses on. Social development programs, stuff like that. And Dick funding his own NPO is a big change for him on a personal level (it'll be another job he won't stick to that we can add to the list!) but it's not the kind of game changer fans expect when we see the worlds "bold new thing."


I hope they actually spend some time on this. Show us the challenges, the players involved.

----------


## Rac7d*

It’s nice to see another Nightwing born character out and about the world
Of DC. It further cements the events of the past.

----------


## hairys

> Like, I expect Dick's big reveal in 87, his big idea, to be some kind of charity-business thing designed to do with Alfred's money *the stuff Bruce casually drops doing but never focuses on.* Social development programs, stuff like that. And Dick funding his own NPO is a big change for him on a personal level (it'll be another job he won't stick to that we can add to the list!) but *it's not the kind of game changer fans expect* when we see the worlds "bold new thing."


It needs to be something Bruce has never done before since Dick said that Bruce could've done more with his money to help.  Whether it's a good idea or bad (and I look forward to reading the debates), it does need to be some sort of gamechanger and exciting / interesting / thought-provoking.

----------


## Restingvoice

> It needs to be something Bruce has never done before since Dick said that Bruce could've done more with his money to help.  Whether it's a good idea or bad (and I look forward to reading the debates), it does need to be some sort of gamechanger and exciting / interesting / thought-provoking.


That would be giving it all away, except the ones he needs to maintain his apartment in its most basic state. That would allow them to keep the relatable or humble image and character of single 20-something guy living in a barely kept apartment while also investing in a maybe housing project that can host all the homeless. 

Bruce gave a lot to charity but he also still lives in a manor and have a major business company, so if what we've seen from Dick's action to feed the homeless immediately and the reaction in this forum that came after it, Taylor will go for the one that keep the image of Dick as someone who's not outwardly a billionaire. 

Basically something that _look_ more heartfelt and can be shown off the internet

----------


## HsssH

> I think there might be some friction between what Taylor considers a big deal and what the fandom thinks of as a big deal.


I think Taylor is just trying to hype up his run and it is working.




> Learning you have a secret half sister *is* a big deal. Especially if that person is working for a guy who has tried to kill you most of your life. But it's a very small, personal kind of big deal, not a "brand new direction! Dick's now a stripper in Vegas and changed his name officially to Discowing!" big deal, yknow?


I don't agree with this at all. Bruce having a kid could also be viewed as something personal and not a new direction, but it was and continues to be a big deal. Many of us don't consider Melinda a big deal because her backstory is very convenient and we don't have faith in her lasting once Taylor's run ends.

And same really works with charity thing. DC does not let their characters change the world so his charity is either going to be blown up by some villain or will continue to operate in background without us actually seeing any results like with Bruce's charitable work. Its not big, its irrelevant.

----------


## OBrianTallent

I dont really care about the "big deal" every writer comes in with their version of big deal that gets nixed with a new editor or the next creative team.  what I would so much rather read a solid good story.  The Sandman wasn't written with big deals, starman wasn't either...but they were written as solid stories that  moved the characters.  give me good solid stories with developed characters.  But then for this we need creative teams to be given some freedom to tell their stories and not chased off after a year.

----------


## hairys

> That would be giving it all away, except the ones he needs to maintain his apartment in its most basic state. That would allow them to keep the relatable or humble image and character of single 20-something guy living in a barely kept apartment while also investing in a maybe housing project that can host all the homeless.


That'd be horrible, imo, and hopefully not where Taylor is going.  Dick needs to create something self-sustaining for the citizens of Bludhaven.  A billion dollars divided by a city of 5 million people is $200 a person.  You can play around with the numbers (maybe Dick has 10 billion, maybe Bludhaven only has 2 million people) but you're not going to come up with anything that won't be spent in a week.  The plan needs to be better than that and self-sustaining, as mentioned.

----------


## Restingvoice

> That'd be horrible, imo, and hopefully not where Taylor is going.  Dick needs to create something self-sustaining for the citizens of Bludhaven.  A billion dollars divided by a city of 5 million people is $200 a person.  You can play around with the numbers (maybe Dick has 10 billion, maybe Bludhaven only has 2 million people) but you're not going to come up with anything that won't be spent in a week.  The plan needs to be better than that and self-sustaining, as mentioned.


Well, I was thinking more like he's building a charity organization that he can monitor or be hands-on, while also not keeping any money for himself beyond what's necessary, but I was struggling to find a word... but even with an organization it's still not business where you can earn more money so he can keep giving money. 

Something that can make money so he can continue giving people a chance of a better life, something like Wayne E. that hires former criminals or people in need, but also something he can be involved and show up often in the story so there's something to share online to further establish his image as a people person and charitable person.

===

By the way I'm playing the mobile DC Legends and just unlocked Chemo lol. He's available pretty early. 

So far Nightwing's only available in a loot box, and to open that you have to play enough times to get enough in-game currencies. 

Since I'm new, I've only able to open the loot once, and got Batman, because Batman's a Common character that you can also get by just playing the story in the first chapter, while Nightwing's an Uncommon character.

I got two Deadshots too. One's the cooler Suicide Squad version, another the basic bitch version ^^

----------


## Digifiend

Infinite Frontier has retconned the JLA team Dick was on as Batman. Jade says she and Roy were on the Titans together, but she was never a Titan, so it must be the JLA team that they, Dick and Donna were on together.

----------


## Drako

> Infinite Frontier has retconned the JLA team Dick was on as Batman. Jade says she and Roy were on the Titans together, but she was never a Titan, so it must be the JLA team that they, Dick and Donna were on together.


Roy wasn't part of that JLA team either, so makes more sense for they just to retcon her being part of the Titans in the past. 

_____________________________

Eddy Barrows drawing Nightwing in a book again after the New 52 run.
https://twitter.com/applejee_/status...65368125083659

----------


## Godlike13

Not a Barrow’s fan. Too inconsistent and sloppy, and all his characters look the same.

----------


## Drako

> Not a Barrow’s fan. Too inconsistent and sloppy, and all his characters look the same.


I usually like my brazilian artists and i really enjoyed his work on Nightwing, but i don't really like the faces he draws in the characters sometimes.

This is from 4chan so i'm 90% sure it's some BS, but i want to see what yall think, even if i already know half of the answers. 



I'm not against only if the kid was made before Dick and Babs really started a relationship.

----------


## Godlike13

His run on Nightwing was pretty bad IMO. I still feel bad for Higgins, who was already going in to a rough situation, being paired with an artist who could barely finish an issue. His DotF issues were okay, but his Nightwing is still too bulky and charmless. He’s just not a good fit with the Robins. He really struggles with distinction. Remember his Alfred funeral issue. No one could tell who anyone was lol.

And ya, that’s totally bull. 100 is too far away to be that detailed. It’s just more 4chan fantasy rumors.

----------


## Morgoth

It's complete bullshit.
They can't negotiate with Cates about Batman now, his exclusive contract is not expiring anytime soon, he confirmed it himself, and he's going to start Hulk ongoing this fall. 
And this whole shit about ''Dick/Barbara wedding and Kory pregnance'' is sounds like shitty fanfic, if DiDio was in charge I would believe it, but now, no, there's no way Taylor will pull something like that.
Oh, and Rich confirmed that it's fake.

----------


## Rac7d*

> It's complete bullshit.
> They can't negotiate with Cates about Batman now, his exclusive contract is not expiring anytime soon, he confirmed it himself, and he's going to start Hulk ongoing this fall. 
> And this whole shit about ''Dick/Barbara wedding and Kory pregnance'' is sounds like shitty fanfic, if DiDio was in charge I would believe it, but now, no, there's no way Taylor will pull something like that.
> Oh, and Rich confirmed that it's fake.


Dick and Babs getting married, oh hell yeah that could happen.  having starfire being pregnant would be toxic as hell.

----------


## Drako

> His run on Nightwing was pretty bad IMO. I still feel bad for Higgins, who was already going in to a rough situation, being paired with an artist who could barely finish an issue. His DotF issues were okay, but his Nightwing is still too bulky and charmless. He’s just not a good fit with the Robins. He really struggles with distinction. Remember his Alfred funeral issue. No one could tell who anyone was lol.
> 
> And ya, that’s totally bull. 100 is too far away to be that detailed. It’s just more 4chan fantasy rumors.


Yeah, he can't drawn monthly books since that era. 

I really liked his Teen Titans run, even tho Sean Mckeever were battling the editorial and his story was a mess.

I remember his Nightwing books fondly, the ones he could actually finish at least. But i agree he doesn't fit the Robins, his Nightwing looked broody, but it kinda reflects the era.




> It's complete bullshit.
> They can't negotiate with Cates about Batman now, his exclusive contract is not expiring anytime soon, he confirmed it himself, and he's going to start Hulk ongoing this fall. 
> And this whole shit about ''Dick/Barbara wedding and Kory pregnance'' is sounds like shitty fanfic, if DiDio was in charge I would believe it, but now, no, there's no way Taylor will pull something like that.
> Oh, and Rich confirmed that it's fake.


Yeah, it reads like a fanfic. The internet really likes Mar'i Grayson, so of course the guy on 4chan would use her to generate interest. Can't say i blame the internet so much, i also like Mar'i and would not be against having her in the canon. She is by far the most interesting AU kid Dick had in the comics.

----------


## Digifiend

The thing is, Dick would already notice if Kori ended up with a bun in the oven, since they work together all the time at Titans Academy. She couldn't just turn up in Bludhaven and reveal it.

----------


## Rac7d*

> The thing is, Dick would already notice if Kori ended up with a bun in the oven, since they work together all the time at Titans Academy. She couldn't just turn up in Bludhaven and reveal it.


I wasn’t gonna be suprised if he left titans academy once the story got running. The OG team is their for initial attraction but it’s not their story. He could leave a couple months and nothing would change.

----------


## Frontier

> Roy wasn't part of that JLA team either, so makes more sense for they just to retcon her being part of the Titans in the past. 
> 
> _____________________________
> 
> Eddy Barrows drawing Nightwing in a book again after the New 52 run.
> https://twitter.com/applejee_/status...65368125083659


Art looks good to me  :Smile: .

----------


## Drako

Looks like some action figures of Gotham Knights are being made.


https://twitter.com/SkyknightLCG/sta...83274918801409

----------


## Drako

Look at this little information John Siuntres dropped in the JUSTICE LEAGUE Animated Panel at Terrificon 2021.

Apparently he interviewed Loren Lester who said that Warner is contemplating a Nightwing Animated Series and Bruce Timm is behind the project. Loren Lester said he isn't sure if he gonna get the role.

I marked the video with the timestamp, but if for some reason it doesn't work, it's around 34 minute mark.

----------


## Rac7d*

> Look at this little information John Siuntres dropped in the JUSTICE LEAGUE Animated Panel at Terrificon 2021.
> 
> Apparently he interviewed Loren Lester who said that Warner is contemplating a Nightwing Animated Series and Bruce Timm is behind the project. Loren Lester said he isn't sure if he gonna get the role.
> 
> I marked the video with the timestamp, but if for some reason it doesn't work, it's around 34 minute mark.


That be incredible 
I’m suprised always thought it be Batgirl who got the animated series

----------


## Drako

> That be incredible 
> I’m suprised always thought it be Batgirl who got the animated series


Titans, Young Justice, Gotham Knights and a possible Animated series.
His brand keeps getting bigger, but this and a movie would skyrocket it.

----------


## Drako

Robins was officially announced. It will be released in November.



https://www.dccomics.com/blog/2021/0...of-robin-at-dc

----------


## Vordan

Looking forward to Seeley writing Dick again!

----------


## SiegePerilous02

The Nightwing animated series is awesome news if it ends up panning out! Loren Lester coming back would be great.

Also, my ideal casting choice for live action Dick actually wants to play the part. Tanner Buchanan said the character he most wants to play is Robin (specifically Dick since he wants to do Nightwing too):

https://www.cinemablend.com/news/257...obin-nightwing

Of course, since he expressed interest that probably means it will never happen cuz that's how these things go lol. But after the casting of Blue Beetle, we know Cobra Kai is already on WB/DC's radar, so you never know.

----------


## Drako

> The Nightwing animated series is awesome news if it ends up panning out! Loren Lester coming back would be great.
> 
> Also, my ideal casting choice for live action Dick actually wants to play the part. Tanner Buchanan said the character he most wants to play is Robin (specifically Dick since he wants to do Nightwing too):
> 
> https://www.cinemablend.com/news/257...obin-nightwing
> 
> Of course, since he expressed interest that probably means it will never happen cuz that's how these things go lol. But after the casting of Blue Beetle, we know Cobra Kai is already on WB/DC's radar, so you never know.


The casting of Blue Beetle was the first time a very obvious and good fan casting was actually chosen. 

I wouldn't mind Tanner playing The Batman version of Robin. 
Even tho he is not the best actor in Cobra Kai.

Edit: MORE DICK GRAYSON!!! And by Jeff Lemire!!!

Robin & Batman Chronicles Dick Grayson's 'Year One' Origin (Exclusive)
https://www.cbr.com/robin-and-batman...ar-one-origin/

----------


## Rac7d*

> The Nightwing animated series is awesome news if it ends up panning out! Loren Lester coming back would be great.
> 
> Also, my ideal casting choice for live action Dick actually wants to play the part. Tanner Buchanan said the character he most wants to play is Robin (specifically Dick since he wants to do Nightwing too):
> 
> https://www.cinemablend.com/news/257...obin-nightwing
> 
> Of course, since he expressed interest that probably means it will never happen cuz that's how these things go lol. But after the casting of Blue Beetle, we know Cobra Kai is already on WB/DC's radar, so you never know.


Young justice was suppose to be Nightwing but they didn’t belive in him
Titans was suppose to be Nightwing but they didn’t belive in him
Hopefully his presence in live action gets enough fanfare they might belive he can carry an animated solo.

----------


## Rac7d*

> The casting of Blue Beetle was the first time a very obvious and good fan casting was actually chosen. 
> 
> I wouldn't mind Tanner playing The Batman version of Robin. 
> Even tho he is not the best actor in Cobra Kai.
> 
> Edit: MORE DICK GRAYSON!!! And by Jeff Lemire!!!
> 
> Robin & Batman Chronicles Dick Grayson's 'Year One' Origin (Exclusive)
> https://www.cbr.com/robin-and-batman...ar-one-origin/


Him that sucks too but with Damians bottoms

No wonder everyone thinks the robins are all the same lol

----------


## SiegePerilous02

> The casting of Blue Beetle was the first time a very obvious and good fan casting was actually chosen. 
> 
> I wouldn't mind Tanner playing The Batman version of Robin. 
> Even tho he is not the best actor in Cobra Kai.


I think Xolo is definitely the best of the kids acting wise, so if any of them got chosen for one of these I'm glad it was him.

Tanner at least has the physical ability and the looks for the part; I agree he isn't the strongest of the actors, but he suits the introverted nature of the character he plays. I guess it would depend on where Dick would start as a character in these movies, since they are darker, and where they want him to go. And if it's a composite character (cuz he might suit Jason better just going off of Robby).

----------


## Pohzee

> The casting of Blue Beetle was the first time a very obvious and good fan casting was actually chosen. 
> 
> I wouldn't mind Tanner playing The Batman version of Robin. 
> Even tho he is not the best actor in Cobra Kai.
> 
> Edit: MORE DICK GRAYSON!!! And by Jeff Lemire!!!
> 
> Robin & Batman Chronicles Dick Grayson's 'Year One' Origin (Exclusive)
> https://www.cbr.com/robin-and-batman...ar-one-origin/


Oh hell yes. I was starting to think this mysterious series was just a misunderstanding for the _Batman and Robin... and Howard_ kids book. That's a killer team and a nice modernization of the classic costume, even if it is a bit Damian-esque.

----------


## Rac7d*

> Titans, Young Justice, Gotham Knights and a possible Animated series.
> His brand keeps getting bigger, but this and a movie would skyrocket it.


Again if the reception to Nightwing is good it could be green lit sooner

----------


## Frontier

> Looks like some action figures of Gotham Knights are being made.
> 
> 
> https://twitter.com/SkyknightLCG/sta...83274918801409


Now all we need is more gameplay footage...



> Look at this little information John Siuntres dropped in the JUSTICE LEAGUE Animated Panel at Terrificon 2021.
> 
> Apparently he interviewed Loren Lester who said that Warner is contemplating a Nightwing Animated Series and Bruce Timm is behind the project. Loren Lester said he isn't sure if he gonna get the role.
> 
> I marked the video with the timestamp, but if for some reason it doesn't work, it's around 34 minute mark.


Wow. A Nightwing cartoon is one thing, but I'm kind of surprised Bruce Timm is helping with it. I never thought he was all that into Dick as Nightwing. 



> Robins was officially announced. It will be released in November.
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.dccomics.com/blog/2021/0...of-robin-at-dc


Cool!



> The casting of Blue Beetle was the first time a very obvious and good fan casting was actually chosen. 
> 
> I wouldn't mind Tanner playing The Batman version of Robin. 
> Even tho he is not the best actor in Cobra Kai.
> 
> Edit: MORE DICK GRAYSON!!! And by Jeff Lemire!!!
> 
> Robin & Batman Chronicles Dick Grayson's 'Year One' Origin (Exclusive)
> https://www.cbr.com/robin-and-batman...ar-one-origin/


I'm curious how this will compare to _Robin: Year One_...beyond Dick wearing pants.

----------


## Drako

> Wow. A Nightwing cartoon is one thing, but I'm kind of surprised Bruce Timm is helping with it. I never thought he was all that into Dick as Nightwing.


Because he wasn't. He kinda had the same mentality that Didio had, he has stated that he doesn't think there is a reason for Nightwing, Dick should be Robin or not being anything. 

Maybe he changed his mind, who knows.
The only thing i know is that i'll have to bite my tongue about all the stuff i said about him if he indeed make this happen.

----------


## SiegePerilous02

I'm kinda long past the point where I'd trust Timm with any characters I like, so that kind of takes a bit of the excitement away

----------


## Konja7

> Edit: MORE DICK GRAYSON!!! And by Jeff Lemire!!!
> 
> Robin & Batman Chronicles Dick Grayson's 'Year One' Origin (Exclusive)
> https://www.cbr.com/robin-and-batman...ar-one-origin/


So, Dick as Robin will continue to have pants. It seems Jason will be the only Robin with trunks now.

----------


## Avi

Okay, wow, so many news.

*Animated Series:* That would be really cool, not sure how I feel about Timm though.

*Robins*: I'm looking forward to Seeley writing Dick again and I think he'll do a good job. Hopefully he'll  integrate that Tim is Bi and Dick is Romani. DC needs to be consistent with both going forward and Seeley should be able to write them as such.

*Robin & Batman*: Yes. Just yes. I've never gotten into Lemire's books, but I think this is gonna be interesting.




> Looks like some action figures of Gotham Knights are being made.
> 
> 
> https://twitter.com/SkyknightLCG/sta...83274918801409


That looks awesome.

----------


## Vordan

> I'm kinda long past the point where I'd trust Timm with any characters I like, so that kind of takes a bit of the excitement away


Same, I hope he’s not involved if it happens. He’s doing that Caped Crusader cartoon anyway, he should just stick to that.

----------


## Rakiduam

A Nightwing Animated Series with Bruce Timm behind the project is like getting a monkey paw witch, a lot like a Titans serie produced Goldsman, Johns and Berlanti. The result would end being the same old "how to turn everything into a Batman show".

Robin and Batman though, looks so promising, but I don't trust DC these days. I'm going to wait to see more before getting excited

----------


## Claude

So.... 

_Nightwing_
_Teen Titans Academy_
_Titans United_
_Robin And Batman_
_Robins_

I'd hoped "Robin And Batman" would be an ongoing, but a self-contained limited story is probably easy to manage and gets you a better creative team. Dustin Nguyen!

Quite a lot of Dick-books out towards the end of the year! I always thought that the "Didio hates Dick" theory was an oversimplification, but I can't deny that we're a world away from where we were last year....

I wonder how much notice creators get about other titles involving "their" characters being on the horizon? I have _no_ objection at all to Tim being a semi-regular presence in Taylor's _Nightwing_, for instance - with all due respect to his fan's, support to Dick is where I've always liked Tim most - but it starts to feel a bit much if "Robins" is running alongside, maybe?

----------


## SiegePerilous02

> Same, I hope hes not involved if it happens. Hes doing that Caped Crusader cartoon anyway, he should just stick to that.


I don't even trust him with Bruce at this point if some of his statements are anything to go by.

We owe Dini a LOT I suspect.

----------


## Godlike13

Hmm, a potential animated series. Cool. Bruce Timm behind it. Less cool. The new books are interesting. Hell yes to Robin and Batman, but Robins is a book i don't want to exist by writer that i really like though. I guess will see if he can convince me if a Robin's team book is a good idea.

----------


## AmiMizuno

Overall has long has someone is working with Bruce Timm that helps. There there was suppose to be a Nightwing animated series a while back and it would have Raven in it. Most likely the same one. Some model sheets do exist still. Yea it was suppose to happen but cancelled maybe this time they will go along with it

----------


## Lucas 35



----------


## Frontier

Not sure how I feel about there being a secret first Robin, but okay.

----------


## Badou

Maybe the secret first Robin is also Melinda Zucco.  :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## John Venus

Maybe they are bringing back the Bruce Wayne as the first Robin idea?

----------


## John Venus

> I usually like my brazilian artists and i really enjoyed his work on Nightwing, but i don't really like the faces he draws in the characters sometimes.
> 
> This is from 4chan so i'm 90% sure it's some BS, but i want to see what yall think, even if i already know half of the answers. 
> 
> 
> 
> I'm not against only if the kid was made before Dick and Babs really started a relationship.


LOL.  Dick just has bad luck with weddings.  

Maybe he should just skip weddings all together and stick with being live-in couples with either Starfire or Babs.  




> A Nightwing Animated Series with Bruce Timm behind the project is like getting a monkey paw witch, a lot like a Titans serie produced Goldsman, Johns and Berlanti. The result would end being the same old "how to turn everything into a Batman show".
> 
> Robin and Batman though, looks so promising, but I don't trust DC these days. I'm going to wait to see more before getting excited


Idk, I think post-TKJ (and even on some earlier projects) he's been more of a guiding force on these projects than a primary architect.

----------


## WonderNight

Maybe if we can get the Nightwing animated series trending it'll hope give it a push.

----------


## Aahz

> Maybe they are bringing back the Bruce Wayne as the first Robin idea?


Or John Vance aka Batman Jr. (Detective Comics #231)

----------


## Frontier

> Maybe if we can get the Nightwing animated series trending it'll hope give it a push.


Might see something announced officially at FanDome, maybe?

----------


## Drako

Three first episodes of Titans were pretty good! The third one was great.

This really became a Nightwing show, if it already wasn't. At least the this first three, really looks like his show with the Titans as suporting cast.

----------


## Digifiend

> So.... 
> 
> _Nightwing_
> _Teen Titans Academy_
> _Titans United_
> _Robin And Batman_
> _Robins_
> 
> I'd hoped "Robin And Batman" would be an ongoing, but a self-contained limited story is probably easy to manage and gets you a better creative team. Dustin Nguyen!
> ...


Robins does seem to be set in the past based on Steph's and Damian's costumes. Around Rebirth.




> Maybe they are bringing back the Bruce Wayne as the first Robin idea?


Who SHE is. The secret Robin is a girl. In the book's thread, it was suggested it might be silver age character Roberta the Girl Wonder.

----------


## Avi

> Three first episodes of Titans were pretty good! The third one was great.
> 
> This really became a Nightwing show, if it already wasn't. At least the this first three, really looks like his show with the Titans as suporting cast.


It's gotten better, but I still think Titans moves way too fast and some plot decisions are "special". Dick in Season 3 so far is good though. Some really cool scenes. I'm just not feeling the Red Hood storyline.

Titans might really go with *spoilers:*
making Tim Robin to Dick's Batman/The Titans. At least at first. Thematically it would make no sense to let Bruce train anyone else. 
*end of spoilers* I think that could be cool.

Overall, I'm looking forward to Titans for the first time.

----------


## Badou

Wasn't there another preview of the Robins series a while back where they were sitting at a table in Dick's current apartment in his Nightwing series? So it probably in the current time. 


As for a possible Nightwing animated show I'd like to see someone in the production line mention it before getting excited, but it would be the biggest thing to happen for the character I think if it is real. Even above a live action show since it feels like animated shows can stick around and have more influence for a lot longer if they are good. 

I've thought about this way too much, even writing a full breakdown for it haha, but an animated show focusing on Dick's journey as a hero starting from when he becomes Robin as a kid to him as an adult would make for a great series. It perfectly fits into the mold of all these anime series that are very popular that have their main character go on this big hero's journey. Even the animated Invincible series that is now very popular follows the same path. There isn't another character at DC that has as big an arc that covers as much as his I think. 

A very quick summary, which would cover multiple season, would be you starting with Dick becoming Robin, then he gets a bit older maybe high school age and Gotham expands with characters like Batgirl and other villains popping up, then he gets a bit older and he forms the Teen Titans, then he gets a bit older and he becomes Nightwing and Jason become Robin, he gets a bit older and Jason dies and Barbara gets injured and becomes Oracle, then he gets a bit older and the Titans break apart and reform, he gets a bit older and he goes to Bludhaven (not a fan but I included it lol), and then he gets a bit older and Bruce dies/disappears and Damian shows up and him and Dick become the new Batman and Robin together bringing Dick's character full circle.  

It is such an easy arc to follow and it allows you to cover so much with Dick's character being this central anchor that lets you adapt so many stories. No other character at DC probably has as big a hero's journey as Dick's and it is his strongest attribute and it feels like it would make for a great animated series.

----------


## Drako

I think there is a good chance of Dick showing up in this as Bruce squire, maybe not in the beginning but sooner or later.

----------


## HsssH

We are getting lots of him lately, good time to be a fan?

----------


## Drako

> We are getting lots of him lately, good time to be a fan?


For sure. A far cry from last year.

----------


## Frontier

> Three first episodes of Titans were pretty good! The third one was great.
> 
> This really became a Nightwing show, if it already wasn't. At least the this first three, really looks like his show with the Titans as suporting cast.


Yeah, I think at this point people kind of have to accept that's what the show is even if it seems like they're still barely featuring the actual Titans on a show about the Titans.

(Well, that and showing Dick and Kory together).

----------


## Drako

> Yeah, I think at this point people kind of have to accept that's what the show is even if it seems like they're still barely featuring the actual Titans on a show about the Titans.
> 
> (Well, that and showing Dick and Kory together).


They actually appear a lot, but the story of the firsts episodes revolves around Nightwing, Red Hood and Gotham.

----------


## Rakiduam

> I think there is a good chance of Dick showing up in this as Bruce squire, maybe not in the beginning but sooner or later.


More chances to die horribly




> We are getting lots of him lately, good time to be a fan?


Depending if you are looking quality or quantity. On the other hand it's the DC and they can always find new lows for their characters, so mediocre is good.

----------


## Rac7d*

> I think there is a good chance of Dick showing up in this as Bruce squire, maybe not in the beginning but sooner or later.


Bring back Jon Snow knightwing

----------


## Avi

> We are getting lots of him lately, good time to be a fan?


Yep, there is nothing better than choice. We are lucky to have that.





> Wasn't there another preview of the Robins series a while back where they were sitting at a table in Dick's current apartment in his Nightwing series? So it probably in the current time. 
> 
> 
> As for a possible Nightwing animated show I'd like to see someone in the production line mention it before getting excited, but it would be the biggest thing to happen for the character I think if it is real. Even above a live action show since it feels like animated shows can stick around and have more influence for a lot longer if they are good. 
> 
> I've thought about this way too much, even writing a full breakdown for it haha, but an animated show focusing on Dick's journey as a hero starting from when he becomes Robin as a kid to him as an adult would make for a great series. It perfectly fits into the mold of all these anime series that are very popular that have their main character go on this big hero's journey. Even the animated Invincible series that is now very popular follows the same path. There isn't another character at DC that has as big an arc that covers as much as his I think. 
> 
> A very quick summary, which would cover multiple season, would be you starting with Dick becoming Robin, then he gets a bit older maybe high school age and Gotham expands with characters like Batgirl and other villains popping up, then he gets a bit older and he forms the Teen Titans, then he gets a bit older and he becomes Nightwing and Jason become Robin, he gets a bit older and Jason dies and Barbara gets injured and becomes Oracle, then he gets a bit older and the Titans break apart and reform, he gets a bit older and he goes to Bludhaven (not a fan but I included it lol), and then he gets a bit older and Bruce dies/disappears and Damian shows up and him and Dick become the new Batman and Robin together bringing Dick's character full circle.  
> 
> It is such an easy arc to follow and it allows you to cover so much with Dick's character being this central anchor that lets you adapt so many stories. No other character at DC probably has as big a hero's journey as Dick's and it is his strongest attribute and it feels like it would make for a great animated series.


Yeah, cartoons seem to have more influence. Maybe because they are more similar to comics than live-action and because it's more all-ages oriented.

I like your idea. I agree that Dick as an anchor point works well. He has a very classic hero's journey that helps keep his story on a finite path.

----------


## Vordan

> I think there is a good chance of Dick showing up in this as Bruce squire, maybe not in the beginning but sooner or later.


I think both Supes and Bats are still “young” so Dick might become his “Robin” at the end of this maxi.

----------


## Frontier

> I think both Supes and Bats are still “young” so Dick might become his “Robin” at the end of this maxi.


Every knight needs a squire.

----------


## HsssH

> Depending if you are looking quality or quantity. On the other hand it's the DC and they can always find new lows for their characters, so mediocre is good.


I like Dick in Batman/Superman and I think that upcoming Robin and Batman book can be really good. Are you really not liking anything with Dick at the moment?

----------


## AmiMizuno

Glad they are having him being more playful with villains

----------


## Lady Nightwing

An animated series would be incredible. Under the right creative team it could be a huge hit. 




> I'm kinda long past the point where I'd trust Timm with any characters I like, so that kind of takes a bit of the excitement away


You didn't love Paris Franz?!   :Stick Out Tongue:  Seriously though, I share this exact sentiment.

Delighted Tim Seeley won the Round Robin, a little nervous about a hidden first Robin but I'm willing to give him the benefit of the doubt. I loved his early run on Nightwing.

I'm probably most excited about Robin and Batman though. I love the OG Dynamic Duo. I did think it was white washed Damian on that cover though. It looks exactly like how Nguyen draws Damian. I hope we get the original Robin costume in the interiors, it's still my favourite Robin suit.

It's great that everyone is enjoying Titans season 3, I've heard nothing but good things. Netflix needs to pull their thumb out and get the rights to stream it in Europe.

----------


## Lady Nightwing

> I like Dick in Batman/Superman and I think that upcoming Robin and Batman book can be really good. Are you really not liking anything with Dick at the moment?


Can I be a pain in the hole and ask what series/issues these are?

----------


## Drako

A whole lot of Dick Grayson in November.

https://www.gamesradar.com/dc-solici...tent=newsarama

NIGHTWING #86
Written by TOM TAYLOR
Art by ROBBI RODRIGUEZ
Cover by BRUNO REDONDO
$3.99 US | 32 PAGES
Variant by JAMAL CAMPBELL
1:25 variant cover by BRUNO REDONDO
$4.99 US (Card stock)
ON SALE 11/16/21

Nightwing and Babs have fought through the fear-stricken Gotham streets, but now their fight takes them to the skies above Gotham, with the Batgirls and Tim Drake (Robin) in tow! Now aboard the Magistrate's Skybase-01, they have made it their mission to bring the airborne leviathan down, prevent Seer's disinformation from being broadcast, and save the innocents aboard. But in this paranoia-stricken city, not everyone is who they seem…

NIGHTWING 2021 ANNUAL #1
Written by TOM TAYLOR
Art by CIAN TORMEY
Cover by NICOLA SCOTT
$5.99 US | 48 PAGES
Variant by MAX DUNBAR
$6.99 US (Card stock)
ON SALE 11/30/21

Dick Grayson and Jason Todd, the first Robins, both long ago stepped out of the shadow of the Bat and began walking very different paths on their respective journeys to become who they are today. But now their paths converge and these two brothers unite for one goal. With escrima stick and a crowbar combined, Nightwing and Red Hood are ready for anything...anything except what they have to face next! Don't miss out on this explosive adventure!

BATMAN: FEAR STATE: OMEGA #1
Written by JAMES TYNION IV
Art by RICCARDO FEDERICI
Cover by JAMAL CAMPBELL
$4.99 US | 40 PAGES
Variant by SIMONE BIANCHI
1:25 variant by JORGE JIMENEZ
$5.99 US (Both covers card stock)
ON SALE 11/30/21

As Gotham's Fear State comes to a close, a new day dawns on the city…one without Batman. But the Dark Knight's absence does not mean the city is without heroes. Join James Tynion IV and Riccardo Federici as they bring "Fear State" to its conclusion and introduce a new status quo that will reverberate throughout the DCU for years to come.

ROBINS #1
Written by TIM SEELEY
Art and cover by BALDEMAR RIVAS
$3.99 US | 32 PAGES | 1 of 6
Variant by BABS TARR
$4.99 US (Card stock)
ON SALE 11/16/21

The five heroes to have donned the Robin cape and mask find themselves at a crossroads in their lives. Dick Grayson, Jason Todd, Tim Drake, Stephanie Brown, and Damian Wayne come together to discuss the big thing that binds them together: Was being Robin, and Batman's sidekick, the best choice they could've made? But before they can get to the heart of the matter, they're ambushed by an unknown assailant with a bone to pick with them. She claims to have been the first Robin, and she's out to prove Batman should've never trained any of them. Winner of DC's Round Robin tournament, as chosen by you, the readers!

ROBIN & BATMAN #1
Written by JEFF LEMIRE
Art and cover by DUSTIN NGUYEN
$5.99 US | 40 PAGES | 1 of 3 | PRESTIGE
Variant by JEFF LEMIRE
1:25 variant by RAFAEL ALBUQUERQUE
ON SALE 11/9/21

The legendary story of Batman and Robin has reached nearly mythic proportions: the crime-fighting Dynamic Duo, always one step ahead of the criminals they pursue and never meeting a case too big. This isn't that story. This is the story of a young Dick Grayson, newly orphaned, struggling to find his way in a strange, difficult, dark new world…This is the story of Robin and Batman.
The bestselling creative team behind the Eisner-winning Descender, Jeff Lemire and Dustin Nguyen, reunite in Gotham City to tell the story of a remarkable young man learning to navigate an incredible new world!

ROBIN & BATMAN #2
Written by JEFF LEMIRE
Art and cover by DUSTIN NGUYEN
$5.99 US | 40 PAGES | 2 of 3 | PRESTIGE
Variant by JEFF LEMIRE
ON SALE 12/14/21

Dick Grayson is struggling in his training to be Robin, and the Batman decides the young man needs a break…and takes him to meet the Justice League! In an awe-inspiring moment, he meets the World's Greatest Heroes…and their sidekicks! Will these teen titans get along?

DETECTIVE COMICS 2021 ANNUAL #1
Written by MARIKO TAMAKI
and MATTHEW ROSENBERG
Art by DAVID LAPHAM
Cover by VIKTOR BOGDANOVIC
$5.99 US | 48 PAGES
Variant by JASON FABOK
$6.99 US (Card stock)
ON SALE 11/30/21

"We don't choose who we save, Bruce. You treat the patient who needs your help."—Thomas Wayne
"Shadows of the Bat" begins here! In the prelude to January's epic new Detective Comics event, Mayor Nakano has signed off on the construction of a new Arkham Tower in the heart of Gotham City, and the Bat-Family is torn. Batman has long seen Arkham as a necessary, if flawed, cog in the gears of Gotham City—a temporary solution to larger problems that in many ways mirrors his approach as Batman. Nightwing, however, who grew up watching Arkham mutate into a villain factory, believes a different approach is needed. But Bruce and Dick will need to see eye to eye on more than just Arkham Tower, as a new villain known as THE MAEGER MAN wreaks havoc in the streets and becomes the embodiment of Gotham's broken system!

BATMAN: THE ADVENTURES CONTINUE SEASON TWO #7
Written by ALAN BURNETT and PAUL DINI
Art by RICK BURCHETT
Cover by CHRISTIAN WARD
Variant cover by W. SCOTT FORBES
$3.99 US | 32 PGS | 7 of 7 | $4.99 US Variant (Card stock)
ON SALE 12/7/21

Mayor Mayhem's grip over Gotham tightens as he enacts a plan that puts Barbara Gordon at the center of a political scandal! Batman, Nightwing, and Robin leap into action to expose Mayfield's plans for Gotham and break his hypnotic hold over the city before the polls close. But when all roads lead to Arkham, can the Bat Family take down all of the city's costumed criminals?!

BATMAN: URBAN LEGENDS #10
Written by MEGHAN FITZMARTIN, TINI HOWARD,
DAN WATTERS, and SAM JOHNS
Art by ALBERTO JIMENEZ ALBUQUERQUE, CHRISTIAN DUCE,
NIKOLA CIZMESIJA, and KARL MOSTERT
Cover by BELEN ORTEGA
Variant cover by RICCARDO FEDERICI and BECKY CLOONAN
$7.99 | 64 PGS | Prestige Format
ON SALE 12/14/21

Tim Drake goes to make peace with Batman before he leaves Gotham. Superstar writer Tini Howard makes her DC debut on a Nightwing, Oracle, and Batgirls holiday spectacular. Azrael faces down the new villain THE POOR FELLOW. And Tweedle Dum has to make a grave decision.

FUTURE STATE: GOTHAM #7
Written by JOSHUA WILLIAMSON and DENNIS CULVER
Art by GIANNIS MILONOGIANNIS
Cover by SIMONE DI MEO
Variant cover by ROSE BESCH
$3.99 US | 32 PGS | $4.99 US Variant (Card stock)
ON SALE 11/9/21

It's all-out war as the "Hunt the Batman" arc comes to its pulse-pounding conclusion! The Next Batman faces off against Nightwing and the entire Bat-Family while Jason Todd, now known as Peacekeeper Red, must stop Warmonger from driving every citizen in Gotham City to riot. Can Bat and Red win this one? Can they even survive?

TEEN TITANS ACADEMY #9
Written by TIM SHERIDAN
Art by MIKE NORTON
Cover by RAFA SANDOVAL
Variant cover by PHILIP TAN
$3.99 US | 32 PGS | $4.99 US Variant (Card stock)
ON SALE 11/23/21

Homecoming continues! Homecoming is a time for reunion and reflection, and the shocking news that Roy is alive has left the Titans—and the Flash—with plenty to reflect upon. As old wounds are ripped open, the Academy's very existence is called into question, leaving the futures of its vulnerable young students up in the air and exposing them to the fury of an old foe out for vengeance!

TITANS UNITED #3
Written by CAVAN SCOTT
Art by JOSE LUIS AND JONAS TRINDADE
Cover by JAMAL CAMPBELL
Variant cover by KAEL NGU
$3.99 US | 32 PGS | 3 of 7 | $4.99 US Variant (Card Stock)
ON SALE 11/9/21

Raven, Red Hood, and Donna Troy are on the trail of coldhearted killer Lady Vic! How long before bullets start to fly? Meanwhile, Conner Kent has a close encounter with Tamaranean royalty. But with his powers lost, can he survive? And Beast Boy? All Beast Boy wants to do is enjoy his milkshake in peace!

----------


## Drako



----------


## Drako



----------


## Drako



----------


## Drako



----------


## Drako



----------


## Claude

> Can I be a pain in the hole and ask what series/issues these are?


The current Batman/Superman arc, starting in issue 16 (?, whenever it was that Gene Luen Yang took over) features an Elseworldy "classic" Batman and Robin. It's pretty great!

And I like the sound of November's Dick-heavy solicits - _Robin and Batman_ going through to show Dick meeting the Justice League and the other sidekicks, Detective Comics with Dick as a guest star and a very well chosen point of conflict between Dick and Bruce.... It's a little ambiguous, but does the solicit read to anyone else like Dick is going to be a Guest Star throughout the 'Tec arc as a whole rather than just the annual?

I know some people will be annoyed about another Bat Character guesting in the Nightwing Annual, but I'm game for some Dick/Jason without the rest of the family present - there's not a lot of that, and it could work well for both characters. To be honest, part of me thinks that a properly written Nightwing and Red Hood should only just stop short of being actual adversaries, so I'll be interested to see where Taylor takes this.


Also, Dark Knights Of Steel being "generational" surely means Dick will be involved, right?

----------


## Drako

Is Nightwing a woman in Dark Knights of Steel or i'm seeing wrong?


edit: Nevermind, it's just the cape that is drawn in a way that looks like he has boobs.

----------


## Drako

The whole crew is there:

----------


## Frontier

So are we getting a full Robin progression arc? Because the Robin costume on issue #2 looks different from #1. 

I like the idea of seeing the Fab Five Titans meeting for the first time because their mentors brought them together.

I think Taylor could write a good Dick/Jason issue. 




> The whole crew is there:


So Dick, Duke, Stephanie, and...Jason or Tim? It feels like Jason.

----------


## Drako

> So are we getting a full Robin progression arc? Because the Robin costume on issue #2 looks different from #1. 
> 
> I like the idea of seeing the Fab Five Titans meeting for the first time because their mentors brought them together.
> 
> I think Taylor could write a good Dick/Jason issue. 
> 
> 
> So Dick, Duke, Stephanie, and...Jason or Tim? It feels like Jason.


It's Jason, no doubt.

----------


## Avi

Good to see all of them be a part of the Medieval world. Is it just me or do they seem like Bruce's spies/assassins (without the killing part, maybe)? 

Dick meeting the League and the other sidekicks in Robin & Batman sounds good. I hoped he'd meet some other heroes. 





Looks as if Dick is also going to appear in

DC VS. VAMPIRES #2
Written by JAMES TYNION IV and MATTHEW ROSENBERG
Art and cover by OTTO SCHMIDT
Variant cover by FRANCESCO MATTINA
$3.99 US | 32 PGS | 2 of 12 | $4.99 US Variant (Card stock)
ON SALE 11/23/21

The  war  for  the  very  survival  of  the  human  race  has  begun!  A  mysterious  new  vampire  lord  has  already  put  a  plan  in  motion  to  conquer  the  Earth,  and  the  first  step  isdestroy  the  Justice  League!  But  the  Worlds  Greatest  Detective might be Earths last hope, and its time for the Bat-Family to hunt!

----------


## Digifiend

Why so sure? He's right next to Steph.

Watch it be Damian...  :Wink:

----------


## Drako

> Why so sure? He's right next to Steph.
> 
> Watch it be Damian...


They are all next to each other, it's a square formation.

Dude is leaning into the wall with his arms crossed. To me he has Jason's vibe all over him.

----------


## Restingvoice

BATMAN: FEAR STATE: OMEGA #1
Written by JAMES TYNION IV
Art by RICCARDO FEDERICI
Cover by JAMAL CAMPBELL
$4.99 US | 40 PAGES
Variant by SIMONE BIANCHI
1:25 variant by JORGE JIMENEZ
$5.99 US (Both covers card stock)
ON SALE 11/30/21

As Gotham's Fear State comes to a close, a new day dawns on the city…one without Batman. But the Dark Knight's absence does not mean the city is without heroes. Join James Tynion IV and Riccardo Federici as they bring "Fear State" to its conclusion and introduce a new status quo that will reverberate throughout the DCU for years to come.

Wait which Batman tho

----------


## Drako

> BATMAN: FEAR STATE: OMEGA #1
> Written by JAMES TYNION IV
> Art by RICCARDO FEDERICI
> Cover by JAMAL CAMPBELL
> $4.99 US | 40 PAGES
> Variant by SIMONE BIANCHI
> 1:25 variant by JORGE JIMENEZ
> $5.99 US (Both covers card stock)
> ON SALE 11/30/21
> ...


Bruce, of course.

----------


## Light of Justice

BATMAN VS. BIGBY! A WOLF IN GOTHAM #3
Written by BILL WILLINGHAM
Art by BRIAN LEVEL and JAY LEISTEN
Cover by YANICK PAQUETTE
Variant cover by BRIAN LEVEL and JAY LEISTEN
$3.99 US | 32 PGS | 3 of 6 | $4.99 US Variant (Card stock)
ON SALE 11/16/21
17+
Batman and Bigby's brawl comes to a grinding halt after a wave of explosions rocks Gotham. When a giant wolf emerges from the wreckage, Batman and his team of Robins stop at nothing to bring down the beast—and all goes according to the true villain's master plan!

Maybe it will have Dick too, looks like another Robins team up.

----------


## Restingvoice

> 


Gosh I don't recognize Nicola's art when he's not drawing Nightwing with shaggy hair




> Bruce, of course.


Ah so they're gonna actually go through with full JaceBats

----------


## Zaresh

> Why so sure? He's right next to Steph.
> 
> Watch it be Damian...


He wears a red hood.

----------


## Restingvoice

> 


Is that Leslie or Vicki besides Deb Donovan on bottom left... it's Leslie isn't it. Vicki don't wear lab coats.

Oh wait is it doctor Jocasta?

----------


## Badou

Dick and Jason are easy to spot since they are predominantly given blue and red colors to identify them. Interesting they went for Duke over Tim, but honestly, they are pretty interchangeable these days. Each makes the other kind of redundant if both are there.

----------


## Avi

> The current Batman/Superman arc, starting in issue 16 (?, whenever it was that Gene Luen Yang took over) features an Elseworldy "classic" Batman and Robin. It's pretty great!
> 
> And I like the sound of November's Dick-heavy solicits - _Robin and Batman_ going through to show Dick meeting the Justice League and the other sidekicks, Detective Comics with Dick as a guest star and a very well chosen point of conflict between Dick and Bruce.... It's a little ambiguous, but does the solicit read to anyone else like Dick is going to be a Guest Star throughout the 'Tec arc as a whole rather than just the annual?
> 
> [...]


Yeah, it sounds as if he will stay longer. Dick and Bruce are stubborn to a fault, so it would make sense that their conflict isn't solved in one Issue. And because Dick wants to change Arkham it would be strange if he just left.

----------


## Katana500

> Is that Leslie or Vicki besides Deb Donovan on bottom left... it's Leslie isn't it. Vicki don't wear lab coats.
> 
> Oh wait is it doctor Jocasta?


Who are the two woman with the goggles on behind Red Hood?

----------


## Restingvoice

> Who are the two woman with the goggles on behind Red Hood?


They're called The Resurrection Twins in Task Force Z solicit

----------


## Lady Nightwing

> The current Batman/Superman arc, starting in issue 16 (?, whenever it was that Gene Luen Yang took over) features an Elseworldy "classic" Batman and Robin. It's pretty great!


Thanks ever so much  :Smile:

----------


## Rac7d*

> A whole lot of Dick Grayson in November.
> 
> https://www.gamesradar.com/dc-solici...tent=newsarama
> 
> NIGHTWING #86
> Written by TOM TAYLOR
> Art by ROBBI RODRIGUEZ
> Cover by BRUNO REDONDO
> $3.99 US | 32 PAGES
> ...


Danm my wallet Danm me for vowing to buy everything Nightwing

----------


## Darkspellmaster

Interesting how they're putting Dick with the Batgirls. Wonder if he's going to play a part in getting them ready for their own book and being a guest with them on a few adventures. Would make sense for him to work with the team with Babs and since Babs is playing a role in his book too.

----------


## Ascended

More Nightwing than we've had in years. 

Just another data point showing that the new regime does indeed seem to view Nightwing as a more viable property than Didio did. They might not recognize the need for a new status quo (Taylor's writing so slow it's hard to tell yet) but they do seem to recognize that Nightwing has legit profit potential.

Also, I saw a report earlier today that a animated Nightwing film is in the works. Presumably a re-work of McKay's live-action script. Don't recall who broke the story but they weren't a source I consider reliable....but they have been right before, so I guess we'll see if that rumor has any legs.

----------


## AmiMizuno

> More Nightwing than we've had in years. 
> 
> Just another data point showing that the new regime does indeed seem to view Nightwing as a more viable property than Didio did. They might not recognize the need for a new status quo (Taylor's writing so slow it's hard to tell yet) but they do seem to recognize that Nightwing has legit profit potential.
> 
> Also, I saw a report earlier today that a animated Nightwing film is in the works. Presumably a re-work of McKay's live-action script. Don't recall who broke the story but they weren't a source I consider reliable....but they have been right before, so I guess we'll see if that rumor has any legs.


I mean before Dan NIghtwing was doing pretty well. He hated Nightwing and Wally. Now I'm hoping for Wally to make at least one appearance

Talks of a animated series was also talked about in teffic con

----------


## Drako

> More Nightwing than we've had in years. 
> 
> Just another data point showing that the new regime does indeed seem to view Nightwing as a more viable property than Didio did. They might not recognize the need for a new status quo (Taylor's writing so slow it's hard to tell yet) but they do seem to recognize that Nightwing has legit profit potential.
> 
> Also, I saw a report earlier today that a animated Nightwing film is in the works. Presumably a re-work of McKay's live-action script. Don't recall who broke the story but they weren't a source I consider reliable....but they have been right before, so I guess we'll see if that rumor has any legs.


It came from John Siuntres who was talking with Loren Lester. Had nothing about being a rework of McKay's live-action script.




> Look at this little information John Siuntres dropped in the JUSTICE LEAGUE Animated Panel at Terrificon 2021.
> 
> Apparently he interviewed Loren Lester who said that Warner is contemplating a Nightwing Animated Series and Bruce Timm is behind the project. Loren Lester said he isn't sure if he gonna get the role.
> 
> I marked the video with the timestamp, but if for some reason it doesn't work, it's around 34 minute mark.

----------


## Ascended

> It came from John Siuntres who was talking with Loren Lester. Had nothing about being a rework of McKay's live-action script.


Ah, is that where it came from? 

I don't put any stock in rumors about DC/WB films and shows. Even if there was legit interest and effort put into making such a thing, the same was true for Cyborg, Batgirl, something like four Harley Quinn movies, and a dozen other films that never happened at all. 

I know a Nightwing animated project has been tossed around a few times, but I think the closest it ever came to happening was as Young Justice or some such. But if it does happen? I'd subscribe to HBO Max for a Nightwing animated.

----------


## Restingvoice

I'm rereading the solicit again and in Detective it's said that Mayor Nakano and Batman are probably gonna set aside their differences to fight the monstrous Hue Ville. Then the epilogue leads to the building of Arkham Tower, where Batman and Nightwing have different opinion on the necessity of Arkham.

Arkham Tower is Nakano's idea, but it sounds like Batman agrees with it, at least agree to the point that Arkham is necessary. This is similar with Arkham Manor where Bruce let the government used Wayne Manor as temporary Arkham because the old building blew up. He didn't mind because they do need a place to house the criminally insane, and this time, Batman knows that Nakano does have good intention. 

Nightwing isn't the only one who disagrees with Arkham Tower. It sounds like Harley's also against it. Harley always say, based on her experience, that people turn out worse in Gotham, that it's scary for patients there, with wardens and doctors being abusive. It's not a good mental hospital. 

Nightwing's opinion on Arkham reminds me of his opinion on Two-Face. He knows Bruce loves him, regret what happened to him, probably blame himself, and believe he can be rehabilitated, but Dick thinks he's just evil, not helped that Two-Face traumatized him as a child, and he's been in Arkham for years now, in and out, and evidently whatever treatment they did for any of their old foes are not working.

So we're 2 on 2 between the pros and cons of Arkham Tower. Nakano probably wants increased security that he himself can control since Bruce and Jeremiah have failed. Bruce wants rehabilitation first and foremost and if Nakano can give it, he'll probably let him. Dick wants the breeding ground for villains to stop, and Harley wants the abuse of patients to stop. It looks like for both of them the Arkham name just doesn't do it anymore and just because the boss change doesn't mean the treatment inside and the result will change.

----------


## Grayson - The Dark Heir

> I'm rereading the solicit again and in Detective it's said that Mayor Nakano and Batman are probably gonna set aside their differences to fight the monstrous Hue Ville. Then the epilogue leads to the building of Arkham Tower, where Batman and Nightwing have different opinion on the necessity of Arkham.
> 
> Arkham Tower is Nakano's idea, but it sounds like Batman agrees with it, at least agree to the point that Arkham is necessary. This is similar with Arkham Manor where Bruce let the government used Wayne Manor as temporary Arkham because the old building blew up. He didn't mind because they do need a place to house the criminally insane, and this time, Batman knows that Nakano does have good intention. 
> 
> Nightwing isn't the only one who disagrees with Arkham Tower. It sounds like Harley's also against it. Harley always say, based on her experience, that people turn out worse in Gotham, that it's scary for patients there, with wardens and doctors being abusive. It's not a good mental hospital. 
> 
> Nightwing's opinion on Arkham reminds me of his opinion on Two-Face. He knows Bruce loves him, regret what happened to him, probably blame himself, and believe he can be rehabilitated, but Dick thinks he's just evil, not helped that Two-Face traumatized him as a child, and he's been in Arkham for years now, in and out, and evidently whatever treatment they did for any of their old foes are not working.
> 
> So we're 2 on 2 between the pros and cons of Arkham Tower. Nakano probably wants increased security that he himself can control since Bruce and Jeremiah have failed. Bruce wants rehabilitation first and foremost and if Nakano can give it, he'll probably let him. Dick wants the breeding ground for villains to stop, and Harley wants the abuse of patients to stop. It looks like for both of them the Arkham name just doesn't do it anymore and just because the boss change doesn't mean the treatment inside and the result will change.


This is a really nice read on the situation. I thought of the Arkham Manor storyline too, that seemed to go under the radar at the time I feel like, but it was such a massive development in-universe that I've never really forgotten about it lol.

I hadn't thought about Harley also being against the idea, would of course make sense. Would be interesting to see Dick and Harley agree on something strongly like this. Curious to see how far they take this, and if Dick will actually be relevant to 'Tec and Gotham moving forward or not.

----------


## Frontier

> This is a really nice read on the situation. I thought of the Arkham Manor storyline too, that seemed to go under the radar at the time I feel like, but it was such a massive development in-universe that I've never really forgotten about it lol.
> 
> I hadn't thought about Harley also being against the idea, would of course make sense. Would be interesting to see Dick and Harley agree on something strongly like this. Curious to see how far they take this, and if Dick will actually be relevant to 'Tec and Gotham moving forward or not.


I only remember Arkham Manor because Olive from _Gotham Academy_'s mom was in it and it was Gerry Duggan's only major DC book.

----------


## Aahz

Has any of you an idea how Dick being Red X is supposed to fit into the main continuity?
I mean in the animated series he became Red X to get close to Deathstroke but I don't thin that would really make much sense in the main continuity.

If you go by the original comics, Deathstroke wasn't really an Enemy of the Titans after Judas contract, while if you go by the Rebirth Version, Dick made some deal with Deathstroke that ended with him training Ravenger (that also didn't make much sense imo).

----------


## Drako

> Has any of you an idea how Dick being Red X is supposed to fit into the main continuity?
> I mean in the animated series he became Red X to get close to Deathstroke but I don't thin that would really make much sense in the main continuity.
> 
> If you go by the original comics, Deathstroke wasn't really an Enemy of the Titans after Judas contract, while if you go by the Rebirth Version, Dick made some deal with Deathstroke that ended with him training Ravenger (that also didn't make much sense imo).


They will probably crame it someplace between Grant's death and Judas Contract, because the whole point of this is to follow the cartoon and he was Robin there.

----------


## Rac7d*

> Has any of you an idea how Dick being Red X is supposed to fit into the main continuity?
> I mean in the animated series he became Red X to get close to Deathstroke but I don't thin that would really make much sense in the main continuity.
> 
> If you go by the original comics, Deathstroke wasn't really an Enemy of the Titans after Judas contract, while if you go by the Rebirth Version, Dick made some deal with Deathstroke that ended with him training Ravenger (that also didn't make much sense imo).


He went undercover as a bad guy named Renagade so they could swap that out as red x

----------


## Zaresh

There's some discussion in some thread going on, and it made me wonder, is Dick using electrified stick nowadays in the main DCU in comics?

----------


## Rac7d*

> There's some discussion in some thread going on, and it made me wonder, is Dick using electrified stick nowadays in the main DCU in comics?


When they remember

----------


## Zaresh

> When they remember


But, when was thew last time you can remember? I was wondering it they were doing the same thing with them (given that they are dangerous things IRL too) that they're doing with Jason's guns. Dick is meant to be always non lethal (unlike Jason), being a fair hero most of the time. So the thing made me wonder.

----------


## Badou

> But, when was thew last time you can remember? I was wondering it they were doing the same thing with them (given that they are dangerous things IRL too) that they're doing with Jason's guns. Dick is meant to be always non lethal (unlike Jason), being a fair hero most of the time. So the thing made me wonder.


He's using them in the current run. There is a big different between using electrified escrima sticks that are meant to stun people and Jason's guns. My guess the reason DC is sort of trying to move Jason away from guns is that comics and their creators are overwhelmingly liberal and against things like the gun ownership, NRA, 2nd Amendment, and so on. Basically anything that promotes gun ownership they are mostly against it. So they probably feel uncomfortable having Jason run around with guns and shooting people when they are basically writing him as a hero. Which is why they have him using swords, crowbars, stun sticks, and non lethal bullets. Given the whole climate around comics and politics Jason continuing to use guns probably has a limited time frame. 

Then you have the added issue of Jason using guns but not being allowed to kill anyone with them, which makes his whole mission of using guns pointless. He will never be allowed to kill anyone that matters and if he does then they will be brought back anyway. So Jason's character is kind of stuck on on a "quest" that leads nowhere.

----------


## Rac7d*

> He's using them in the current run. There is a big different between using electrified escrima sticks that are meant to stun people and Jason's guns. My guess the reason DC is sort of trying to move Jason away from guns is that comics and their creators are overwhelmingly liberal and against things like the gun ownership, NRA, 2nd Amendment, and so on. Basically anything that promotes gun ownership they are mostly against it. So they probably feel uncomfortable having Jason run around with guns and shooting people when they are basically writing him as a hero. Which is why they have him using swords, crowbars, stun sticks, and non lethal bullets. Given the whole climate around comics and politics Jason continuing to use guns probably has a limited time frame. 
> 
> Then you have the added issue of Jason using guns but not being allowed to kill anyone with them, which makes his whole mission of using guns pointless. He will never be allowed to kill anyone that matters and if he does then they will be brought back anyway. So Jason's character is kind of stuck on on a "quest" that leads nowhere.


And is it only him
Grifter 
Deathstroke (all other assassin/marksmen)
Will be going through this update? I bet it’s temporary

----------


## Drako

> But, when was thew last time you can remember? I was wondering it they were doing the same thing with them (given that they are dangerous things IRL too) that they're doing with Jason's guns. Dick is meant to be always non lethal (unlike Jason), being a fair hero most of the time. So the thing made me wonder.


He was using it in Nightwing #81 by Talor.



It has been his thing ever since Arkham City, but it's much more prominent outside of the comics. Titans had a cool scene in s3e1 with him taking out bad guys with electricity.

Higgins was the one who used the most, but looks like Taylor plans to make him use in fights too.

He was also wielding the electric sticks in Future State.

----------


## Aahz

> Then you have the added issue of Jason using guns but not being allowed to kill anyone with them, which makes his whole mission of using guns pointless. He will never be allowed to kill anyone that matters and if he does then they will be brought back anyway. So Jason's character is kind of stuck on on a "quest" that leads nowhere.


In most cases the guns seem anyway even to really wound any important opponents, the last time I can remember when the guns were actually effective in a fight against an important opponent, was the fight between him and Deathstroke in Deathstroke's pre rebirth run.

----------


## Zaresh

> He's using them in the current run. *There is a big different between using electrified escrima sticks that are meant to stun people and Jason's guns.* My guess the reason DC is sort of trying to move Jason away from guns is that comics and their creators are overwhelmingly liberal and against things like the gun ownership, NRA, 2nd Amendment, and so on. Basically anything that promotes gun ownership they are mostly against it. So they probably feel uncomfortable having Jason run around with guns and shooting people when they are basically writing him as a hero. Which is why they have him using swords, crowbars, stun sticks, and non lethal bullets. Given the whole climate around comics and politics Jason continuing to use guns probably has a limited time frame. 
> 
> Then you have the added issue of Jason using guns but not being allowed to kill anyone with them, which makes his whole mission of using guns pointless. He will never be allowed to kill anyone that matters and if he does then they will be brought back anyway. So Jason's character is kind of stuck on on a "quest" that leads nowhere.


Didn't mean to say they're the same. But tasers are dangerous stuff in real life. It's why police here needs a special license to use them too, as they need for guns. And looking at how WB seems to be taming their depictions of their good guys, it made me wonder about other characters.

And no, it has nothing to do with writers ideologies (or at least, it has very little to do). It's a marketing thing. Toymakers don't want guns, and general stuff aimed to teens and pre-teens don't depict guns. Parents don't like guns in their kids stuff. You can see he keeps them in the Black Label stuff he's just going on by Azzarello and Maleev.

Your second point is a good point. It's kind of nonsense, making him use lethal force if they don't let him kill characters. Not just because he's meant to be one of the good guys or something, but because I'm pretty sure they don't want him to kill named characters. At all. Because precisely, it's pointless: then they'll need to bring those characters back. Also, as Aazh has pointed, it's kind of useless, when a gun is most likely to kill and you can't kill someone. It's, once again, nonsense, to use guns against alies and good guys. Unless you're a villain who aims to kill and maim, of course.




> He was using it in Nightwing #81 by Talor.
> 
> 
> 
> It has been his thing ever since Arkham City, but it's much more prominent outside of the comics. Titans had a cool scene in s3e1 with him taking out bad guys with electricity.
> 
> Higgins was the one who used the most, but looks like Taylor plans to make him use in fights too.
> 
> He was also wielding the electric sticks in Future State.


So the ban is definitely just towards guns. Alright. Thanks a bunch.

----------


## Badou

> And is it only him
> Grifter 
> Deathstroke (all other assassin/marksmen)
> Will be going through this update? I bet it’s temporary


There has been some hints with Punisher over at Marvel too I think. With some creators and others questioning if Punisher is a character that works in modern comics and if he promotes gun violence. There was that debate about the Punisher Skull image being used by cops and military people last year with the creator, Gerry Conway, being upset by them using it. So I think most characters in that Punisher/Red Hood mold that use guns and aren't villains will probably eventually be limited in some way.

----------


## Arsenal

I imagine guns will primarily be saved for the aliens, robots, demons and all other non human cannon fodder going forward. At least by heroes.

----------


## Vordan

The problem with guns is that it’s idiotic for the Batfamily to look the other way while Jason kills people. Bruce is a hypocrite, but he can’t be *that* big and blatant a hypocrite. Dick also is not going to just sit by and let Jason murder. Plus Jason will never actually get to kill anyone important, he shot Penguin in the freaking head and it still didn’t take. So either Jason goes back to being a villain or he ends up ditching the guns which is what ultimately ended up happening.

----------


## Frontier

Rubber bullets?

----------


## Vordan

> Rubber bullets?


They’ve done that, but then Jason just looks like an edgy little twat. Using guns because it makes Bruce mad, but not actually killing people just makes him come across as a stupid kid acting out for daddy’s love rather than someone who is actually committed.

We’ll see if the crowbars stick, but they’re also hilariously edgy. Glad Dick has his iconic weapon at least.

----------


## Drako

I liked this issue a lot. Much better than the previous one.
I hope what Dick is doing here isn't trashed later in some kind of Fall of Grayson storyline.

----------


## Morgoth

The best issue so far.

----------


## HsssH

I guess I was always negative.

The good:
Superman pages.
Redondo kills it again.

The bad:
So Melinda's mom was upstairs when police was storming their house?
I know that superhero fights are not realistic and all that, but running straight into bullets and all of them missing is just special kind of cringe.
Everything with Babs.
So Heartless is also connected to Dick's past?
Dick's plan sounds like something that 15 years old leftist would write on twitter. I know that this is not serious literature, but I think that if you are trying to address "real problems" then you should put some effort into it.
I guess the amount of money was mentioned at some point and I forgot, but it hit me just now that Alfred had billions of dollars and never did anything with them. What that says about him?

Anyway, I'm skipping Fear State and I'm not sure if I'm going to return after it. It is a shame since art is great and in general writing is good, but I really don't like the overall direction of this book.

----------


## Rakiduam

> I guess I was always negative.
> 
> The good:
> Superman pages.
> Redondo kills it again.
> 
> The bad:
> So Melinda's mom was upstairs when police was storming their house?
> I know that superhero fights are not realistic and all that, but running straight into bullets and all of them missing is just special kind of cringe.
> ...


So, Dick didn't fix poverty and succeeded where Bruce couldn't? Shocking I tell you.

----------


## Pohzee

Lol, Heartless is gonna be the blond bully from issue 1 of the run. Someone here definitely called it. Loved the Superman pages.

----------


## Murrocko

I'm just happy Dick is doing something he should have been a part of since going out on his own. Cop, after school gym teacher... didn't he run a museum at one point? None of that made sense for him, but this is exactly what he needed. Gives him his "day job" but with freedom to bounce around the globe.

Still not a fan of long lost sister and it looks like we're getting a long lost villain from the past, so I guess we'll just have to wait and see how all that plays out. I give this 1st arc 7/10, the art did a lot of the heavy lifting.

----------


## Batman Begins 2005

Man, this book sure is a looker. Feast on the eyes.

----------


## Batman Begins 2005

Loved the scene with Nightwing and Superman.

----------


## HsssH

> Lol, Heartless is gonna be the blond bully from issue 1 of the run. Someone here definitely called it. Loved the Superman pages.


I had forgotten the bully by now, but yeah, this is 100% happening.

----------


## Drako

> I had forgotten the bully by now, but yeah, this is 100% happening.


yall probably right. 

I liked that last painel with him, kinda reminds me of Kurapika from Hunter X Hunter. Taylor needs to explore this villain more than what we have, hopefully he will start in december.

Looks like Dick and Babs are finally together. I like them, it's better to make this official than the "will they or won't they" routine. And i enjoyed Babs doing her MJ impression.

----------


## Blue22

Okay two things have stopped me from completely loving this issue.

1. The latter part of the Superman convo. Though it was, of course, inevitable with Taylor writing both books. Potential Dick and Jon interactions would have made me happy a few years ago. But now I'm dreading the possibility of seeing a character that now fills me with dread, in a book that I've been *really* loving so far. On the upside, I'm glad they've once again acknowledged that Dick got the Nightwing name from Clark. You know what doesn't have an upside though?

2. Babs kissing Dick while he's with Kory. We're really. Honestly. Truly. Doing this shit. *Again*. Even if it was just a way to calm his nerves. That's just....ugh. I have no stakes in this eternal game that he plays with these women. I don't care who he chooses but I just want the back and forths and the "will they/won't they" to *stop*! Nobody comes out of it looking good. This was the main reason I wanted his relationship with Shawn to work.

----------


## Drako

> Okay two things have stopped me from completely loving this issue.
> 
> 1. The latter part of the Superman convo. Though it was, of course, inevitable with Taylor writing both books. Potential Dick and Jon interactions would have made me happy a few years ago. But now I'm dreading the possibility of seeing a character that now fills me with dread, in a book that I've been *really* loving so far. On the upside, I'm glad they've once again acknowledged that Dick got the Nightwing name from Clark. You know what doesn't have an upside though?
> 
> 2. Babs kissing Dick while he's with Kory. We're really. Honestly. Truly. Doing this shit. *Again*. Even if it was just a way to calm his nerves. That's just....ugh. I have no stakes in this eternal game that he plays with these women. I don't care who he chooses but I just want the back and forths and the "will they/won't they" to *stop*! Nobody comes out of it looking good. This was the main reason I wanted his relationship with Shawn to work.


He is not with Kory. Them had a one night stand.

----------


## Blue22

> He is not with Kory. Them had a one night stand.


From the brief conversation they've had or others have had about them in TTA, it sounds a lot like they're dating again.

----------


## Drako

> From the brief conversation they've had or others have had about them in TTA, it sounds a lot like they're dating again.


We would know by now if that book actually focused on them. I doubt Tim Sheridan has the power to say who is Nightwing girlfriend over Taylor.

----------


## Restingvoice

> I guess I was always negative.
> 
> The good:
> Superman pages.
> Redondo kills it again.
> 
> The bad:
> So Melinda's mom was upstairs when police was storming their house?
> I know that superhero fights are not realistic and all that, but running straight into bullets and all of them missing is just special kind of cringe.
> ...


That Alfred's too busy taking care of the Bat fam to think about anything else :P

Anyway called it that it's going to be something that amount to giving it all away, since the most visible part about a billionaire is looking like one, this allows Dick to still look like the relatable poor twenty-something, instead of Bruce who owns a Manor. Key point being what's visible, and therefore share-able online. 

That said, this is where Melinda comes in. He can't enforce this idea to other people's private business and government sector since he doesn't have the authority, but Melinda does and this will be the start of them working together.

The long running conflict will be how they're gonna navigate making Melinda look like a good mayor while appeasing Blockbuster and the corrupt cops while Nightwing keeps himself and his new family safe from from the physical threats until they find enough to bring the mob and corruption down.

That's not gonna take 100 issues or anything but don't worry, if it's interrupted that just means it is realistically difficult to do all this.

----------


## Blue22

> We would know by now if that book actually focused on them. I doubt Tim Sheridan has the power to say who is Nightwing girlfriend over Taylor.



This ain't the kind of conversation you have with someone if you're just sharing some casual, no strings attached, sex with them. And that's just one example. Every interaction with these two (as few as there are because....yeah, this book is unfocused as fuck) suggests that something's going on. But if we're not taking any of that as a suggestion that he and Kory are back together, I'm not taking this one spontaneous kiss as a suggestion that he and Babs are back. I need the dude to like...actually show who he's chosen, if not say it. And fucking stick with it.

Cuz right now I just can't help but give Dick the side eye and be reminded of the time he slept with Barbara right before his wedding to Kory.

----------


## Drako

> This ain't the kind of conversation you have with someone if you're just sharing some casual, no strings attached, sex with them. And that's just one example. Every interaction with these two (as few as there are because....yeah, this book is unfocused as fuck) suggests that something's going on. But if we're not taking any of that as a suggestion that he and Kory are back together, I'm not taking this one spontaneous kiss as a suggestion that he and Babs are back. I need the dude to like...actually show who he's chosen, if not say it. And fucking stick with it.
> 
> Cuz right now I just can't help but give Dick the side eye and be reminded of the time he slept with Barbara right before his wedding to Kory.


He never said that he was with Kory either. And Kory doesn't have problem having sex with people she likes. We seen that before.

But like i said, the main Nightwing book is Taylor's, so it's more likely that he chooses the path for Dick's life. But both writers should be on the same page with this so we don't have another stupid annual #2 situation.

----------


## Rac7d*

> We would know by now if that book actually focused on them. I doubt Tim Sheridan has the power to say who is Nightwing girlfriend over Taylor.


Exactly who know when when we will see them again, and when we do should 2-6 pages be dedicated to where they stand ? Whereas Dick and Babs will be together throughout all of the next event and into the future of his solo and most likely Batgirls

However that 4chan leak if starfire getting pregnant seems more likely by the month lol

----------


## Rac7d*

> He never said that he was with Kory either. And Kory doesn't have problem having sex with people she likes. We seen that before.
> 
> But like i said, the main Nightwing book is Taylor's, so it's more likely that he chooses the path for Dick's life. But both writers should be on the same page with this so we don't have another stupid annual #2 situation.


 If I recall she said that love has nothing do with it

----------


## Frontier

I appreciate Dick's intentions, but I still have to say...good luck with that.

Barbara is now Mary Jane Watson, apparently. I dunno, hard for me to get invested in them hooking up again and Kory probably getting nothing. In before Dick is dating them both at the same time  :Stick Out Tongue: . 



> Theyve done that, but then Jason just looks like an edgy little twat. Using guns because it makes Bruce mad, but not actually killing people just makes him come across as a stupid kid acting out for daddys love rather than someone who is actually committed.


I think the "edge" is kind of overrided by how cool people thinks he looks dual-wielding pistols...especially in movies and video games.

----------


## Pohzee

Guns with rubber bullets are a perfect metaphor for modern Jason Todd. Superficially edgy and tough, but in reality poser-ish and cheesy. Lazy. All bark, no bite.

----------


## Frontier

> Guns with rubber bullets are a perfect metaphor for modern Jason Todd. Superficially edgy and tough, but in reality poser-ish and cheesy. Lazy. All bark, no bite.


Might still be fun to play as in a video game though  :Smile: .

----------


## Iclifton

Really liked this issue. DC is not really stressing continuity anymore and I must say, I like it. I do not Dicks relationship status in his solo to be dictated by Titans. The two versions of Nightwing are almost completely different characters anyway. I also like that we are not doing the "will they wont they" anymore. It`ll be refreshing to actually see them in a relationship current tense. 

Other cool things:
- Superman! Loved the interaction and that we may finally get a Nightwing/Jon interaction. Should have happened years ago.
- Cool fight scene on the roof.
- Interesting Heartless Scene.

Favorite issue of the run so far.

----------


## Godlike13

Issue checked a bunch of box’s. Showed offed his connections, got somewhere with Babs, great art, cool fight scene. Surprised me how utterly over Blockbuster I am though, and I’m not sold on the big idea. Sure it could be effective, but its kind of boring.
 Overall this first arc did a lot of setting up. Very much seemed like the calm before the storm. There’s a lot to like here. So let’s hope they can really land these ideas.

----------


## Iclifton

Curious how long Taylor is going to be on this book. I know he initially said it was long term but with the main Batman book coming open and all his other work at DC, we may lose him sooner than anticipated.

----------


## Drako

> Curious how long Taylor is going to be on this book. I know he initially said it was long term but with the main Batman book coming open and all his other work at DC, we may lose him sooner than anticipated.


He already pitched the idea for issue 100, so we have at least more than a year with him in the book.

----------


## Pohzee

> Might still be fun to play as in a video game though .


Definitely more in my wheelhouse as far as video games usually go. I probably won't touch him or Tim out of principle though  :Stick Out Tongue: 



> He already pitched the idea for issue 100, so we have at least more than a year with him in the book.


King had a plan until Batman #100 until he didn't. Same with Tynion and 'Tec 1000. Or Tomasi on anything after Rebirth. Or more relevantly king and Seeley on Grayson to issue #50

----------


## Drako

> Definitely more in my wheelhouse as far as video games usually go. I probably won't touch him or Tim out of principle though 
> 
> 
> King had a plan until Batman #100 until he didn't. Same with Tynion and 'Tec 1000. Or Tomasi on anything after Rebirth. Or more relevantly king and Seeley on Grayson to issue #50


100 issues counting from the first one it's pretty different from 17 issues from now. That would be just more than a year and most if not all of the writers you just mentioned were in the book from more than a year.

----------


## Iclifton

> 100 issues counting from the first one it's pretty different from 17 issues from now. That would be just more than a year and most if not all of the writers you just mentioned were in the book from more than a year.


Agreed, but if he were offered the main Bat book, his priorities may change. I cannot think of a bigger writer at DC at the moment that they would actually offer the book to.

----------


## HsssH

Gleason did like 6 issues of Robin before being moved to Superman Rebirth.

----------


## Claude

Thought there was some very smart positioning in this issue - Dick taking the (_deeply_ unlikely) Melinda revelations at face value as a leap of faith, that gives him the push to go forward with his Big Idea. That Big Idea suddenly coinciding with him "waking up" a little and performing the kind of unlikely acrobatic feats that people had been missing in previous issues, and broadening his contacts to outside the Bat Family with the Titans and Superman.... And taking the under-used but classic Superman And Dick relationship and dusting it off for it's best showing in a while, ending with the flip that at the same time Dick is now on a bigger stage _he's_ the experienced hero/mentor/moral guide for a young, brash Superman. Liked "Dick will meet Jon and has been asked to look out for him" being part of Taylor's laying out the stall of the book, rather than them both turning up to rescue the same cat from a tree in three months' time.

And Dick's involvement with Bludhaven in this way, and the awkward mostly unspoken way that it's a criticism of what Bruce did with _his_ money, nicely sets up a point of conflict over Arkham for this Detective Comics annual later in the year.

Yeah, enjoying this.

(But then, I was game for what Ben Percy was doing a few years back - watch next month's solicits suddenly show a new creative team as Dick's cameo in _Batman_ ends with him falling in a meat grinder and losing his arms or something.)

----------


## Drako

> Gleason did like 6 issues of Robin before being moved to Superman Rebirth.


Then by october Taylor will be already in Nightwing longer than Gleason was in Robin.
Thats good.

----------


## Vordan

I liked this week’s issue again. Art was great, Dick got to pull off some cool stunts even concussed, and now we get the big pitch of Taylor’s run in regards to what Dick will do with his money to shape Bludhaven. Neither Blockbuster nor Heartless are really exciting me though.

----------


## Rac7d*

> I liked this week’s issue again. Art was great, Dick got to pull off some cool stunts even concussed, and now we get the big pitch of Taylor’s run in regards to what Dick will do with his money to shape Bludhaven. Neither Blockbuster nor Heartless are really exciting me though.


Knowing blockbusters style we will have a slew of incoming assassins

----------


## Digifiend

> Dick and Jason are easy to spot since they are predominantly given blue and red colors to identify them. Interesting they went for Duke over Tim, but honestly, they are pretty interchangeable these days. Each makes the other kind of redundant if both are there.


Huh? Duke and Tim are both on that cover.

----------


## Pohzee

> Huh? Duke and Tim are both on that cover.


I think he was talking about Taylor's Dark Knights of Steel. Although these days you never know it could be Tim instead of Duke for non-canon stories...

----------


## Rac7d*

Whooop there it is
D43B1AB3-7E6B-4CDD-8110-CF12E5F105F9.jpg

----------


## BloodOps

Man I loved this issue. 

Love seeing Dick go and talk to Clark too.

----------


## Pohzee

> Whooop there it is
> D43B1AB3-7E6B-4CDD-8110-CF12E5F105F9.jpg


He should be ;(

----------


## Rac7d*

> He should be ;(


I think we’re at a point with Kory where she needs to do what is best for herself. She know that dick will always go home to Gotham and he’s infatuated with Barbra. She is free to continue to pursue casual sex with him, which definitely won’t do her any favors as a character  or she can choose to end it.   Unless she is pregnant?

----------


## Drako

> I think we’re at a point with Kory where she needs to do what is best for herself. She know that dick will always go home to Gotham and he’s infatuated with Barbra. She is free to continue to pursue casual sex with him, which definitely won’t do her any favors as a character  or she can choose to end it.   Unless she is pregnant?


Yeah, they aren't together for how many years now? More than 30? 
It's sad because i'm one of the only people that actually loves both couples, but it's been clear since the 90's that DC is more invested in him with Barbara than with Kory.

----------


## Frontier

I'm a fan of both couples too, but at this point it seems like Kory is the one whose always losing or playing second fiddle, at least until I guess she gets a new love interest that she can actually be happy with (not that it'll probably outshine Dick, but at least it'll let her have something like Dick currently has a relatively healthy relationship with Babs again, for however long that lasts).

She deserves that much at least.

Although I don't know what's up with DC Editorial that they think it's okay for Dick and Kory to be shown having sex while he has a completely separate romantic arc in his own comic. I mean, not to shame casual sex or anything but it seems kind of out of sorts storytelling wise.

----------


## AmiMizuno

One of the reasons I heard is because Bateditorals never want Kori and Dick together so Dc forces more DickBabs. Not only that but Dick can't really have too many crossovers. To be honest the only way to even get the two together is if they do elsewhere stories and they have. Overall it seems like the main issue is that she has Superpowers and so she can't date. I mean that's dumb has there are many ways to get out of it.

To be real why can't Dc do just this. Like when they reboot it's Dick and Kori's chance. So sadly does this mean DickKori will always be will they won't they?or will Dc ever give them a full chance. I mean in Titans they want to explore DickKori. So it seems like it's not going to die out. There is also the question what will happen in the new universe. We have been given the first glance of Barbara


The only elsewhere story I can think of is New Order where they were married. Hopefully Dc is willing to not let this ship die.

----------


## Konja7

> Although I don't know what's up with DC Editorial that they think it's okay for Dick and Kory to be shown having sex while he has a completely separate romantic arc in his own comic. I mean, not to shame casual sex or anything but it seems kind of out of sorts storytelling wise.


Honestly, it's pretty uncomfortable. Dick has casual sex with a woman in a book, while he has romantic development with another woman in another book.

It doesn't help that Dick knows Kory is in love with him, so he seems a jerk.

----------


## AmiMizuno

> Honestly, it's pretty uncomfortable. Dick has casual sex with a woman in a book, while he has romantic development with another woman in another book.
> 
> It doesn't help that Dick knows Kory is in love with him, so he seems a jerk.


I mean are they still having sex because someone told me TTA is having before Nightwing run. Also I mean this just happened with him and Babs. Has there been anymore fwb?

----------


## Restingvoice

> I mean are they still having sex because someone told me TTA is having before Nightwing run


The sex happened at the end of issue #2 when the school already started and Babs called that there's work to do in Bludhaven 

Nightwing #78 Dick was surprised to see Babs in his apartment and #79 happened in the same day
Nightwing #80 happened the next day and finished... the next night with Tim came to Bludhaven?
Nightwing #81-82-83 all happened in a single night after he and Tim faced Heartless, where Babs also called Titans for rescue, then he passed out and woke up 2 days later, where he started approaching people in a montage including the Titans to help him in this new venture.
Once that done, the press conference and the kiss happened.

So the event in Titans can happen within #80 or #83. That's it. When Dick isn't passed out or just setting up the apartment, his routine would be teaching in Titans.

----------


## AmiMizuno

Hopefully this was a one time thing. If anything maybe one day when Dc stops allowing Bateditorials so much book control. We can get more

----------


## Rac7d*

> Hopefully this was a one time thing. If anything maybe one day when Dc stops allowing Bateditorials so much book control. We can get more


When DC (Detective Comics) ? 
Dick can be pulled from Titans at any moment. I don’t think that will ever change becuase he is a bat character. If Warner sold off just Batman he would have to go with him.

----------


## AmiMizuno

> When DC (Detective Comics) ? 
> Dick can be pulled from Titans at any moment. I don’t think that will ever change becuase he is a bat character. If Warner sold off just Batman he would have to go with him.


Oh. By that I mean the Bateditors relax who can and can't appear in his books. That's all. I'm just saying since that's really why Kori can't date him.

----------


## Rac7d*

> Oh. By that I mean the Bateditors relax who can and can't appear in his books. That's all. I'm just saying since that's really why Kori can't date him.


She can appear she just can’t stay, kind of like Superman in this issue

I’m paying attention to Titans season 3 cuz we’re getting a look at Titans have an extended stay in Gotham and how it could work. Perhaps if they do well and it’s well received the comics could adapt.

----------


## AmiMizuno

> She can appear she just can’t stay, kind of like Superman in this issue
> 
> I’m paying attention to Titans season 3 cuz we’re getting a look at Titans have an extended stay in Gotham and how it could work. Perhaps if they do well and it’s well received the comics could adapt.


Yea. I know they said they will explore Kori and Dick's relationship.Hopefully there will be no love triangles with Babs in there. Because rarely in any media do the two meet

----------


## HsssH

> The sex happened at the end of issue #2 when the school already started and Babs called that there's work to do in Bludhaven 
> 
> Nightwing #78 Dick was surprised to see Babs in his apartment and #79 happened in the same day
> Nightwing #80 happened the next day and finished... the next night with Tim came to Bludhaven?
> Nightwing #81-82-83 all happened in a single night after he and Tim faced Heartless, where Babs also called Titans for rescue, then he passed out and woke up 2 days later, where he started approaching people in a montage including the Titans to help him in this new venture.
> Once that done, the press conference and the kiss happened.
> 
> So the event in Titans can happen within #80 or #83. That's it. When Dick isn't passed out or just setting up the apartment, his routine would be teaching in Titans.


I think nobody really has a solid timeline in mind. TTA writer knew that Babs is in Bludhave and used that.

----------


## Blue22

> Hopefully this was a one time thing.


Doubt it. At this point I'm half convinced that Dick is just destined to bounce back and forth between the two like a hot potato for all eternity. This is why I didn't want him to be with either of them. I like both pairings but at this point I'm kinda sick of them too.

#ShawnWasTheOneYouCowards!

----------


## Korath

> Whooop there it is
> Attachment 112686


They are definitively dating in TTA thought... or at least having a fling.

But, oh well. Get back to Jason Kory, or ROy, they'll treat you better than Dick, clearly.

----------


## Morgoth

They clearly want to keep this drama going, that's the reason why they're doing this. Cheap drama for the sake of cheap drama, because fans will react, and it will never stop.

----------


## Badou

It is crazy to me people thought Dick and Starfire were together. They haven't been together since the 90s. Which is for the best in my opinion given how garbage the Titans franchise has become in the comics especially for Dick. So the less tied down he is to the Titans and Starfire the better in my opinion, but that didn't stop them from having random hookups over the last 25 years. That has happened several times since the whole One Year Later storyline after Babs broke off her engagement to Dick. There are 3 or 4 instances that come to mind of that happening, but they were never dating or anything. It has been pretty firmly established that Dick wants to be with Barbara but Barbara is the one that doesn't want to be with Dick. Either because the timing isn't right or whatever, but Dick wanting to be with Babs and her not being ready has been the cycle for over a decade now. 

Pre-New 52 she is the one that called off their engagement, then in the New 52 Dick is the one that asked her to come to Chicago with him, he showed up at her friend's wedding, and even in that Death Metal event it was Dick wanting to tell Babs he loved her and her not wanting to hear it. That has been the dynamic. Here Babs is the one that kisses Dick, so it is a little different than usual cycle because Babs is the aggressor. So maybe it is an indication that Babs is ready to try again? I dunno.

----------


## Godlike13

> But, oh well. Get back to Jason Kory, or ROy, they'll treat you better than Dick, clearly.


Ya, who doesnt want to see another bang bros hive five lol.

----------


## Majesty

> It is crazy to me people thought Dick and Starfire were together. They haven't been together since the 90s. Which is for the best in my opinion given how garbage the Titans franchise has become in the comics especially for Dick. So the less tied down he is to the Titans and Starfire the better in my opinion, but that didn't stop them from having random hookups over the last 25 years. That has happened several times since the whole One Year Later storyline after Babs broke off her engagement to Dick. There are 3 or 4 instances that come to mind of that happening, but they were never dating or anything. It has been pretty firmly established that Dick wants to be with Barbara but Barbara is the one that doesn't want to be with Dick. Either because the timing isn't right or whatever, but Dick wanting to be with Babs and her not being ready has been the cycle for over a decade now. 
> 
> Pre-New 52 she is the one that called off their engagement, then in the New 52 Dick is the one that asked her to come to Chicago with him, he showed up at her friend's wedding, and even in that Death Metal event it was Dick wanting to tell Babs he loved her and her not wanting to hear it. That has been the dynamic. Here Babs is the one that kisses Dick, so it is a little different than usual cycle because Babs is the aggressor. So maybe it is an indication that Babs is ready to try again? I dunno.



Dick didn't just "show up at her friend's wedding to tell her he loved her."   

He showed up at the wedding, he stole her friend's engagement ring in order to force her to come with her.  Meanwhile he tried to get her to cheat on Luke whom he was just introduced to as her boyfriend.  


3dtksb.jpg

Probably somewhere in the Top 10 worst things Grayson has ever done to Babs.  (Number 1 is obviously what happened in Nightwing Annual #2 where it was revealed he literally slept with her after she was paralyzed and then the next morning invites her to he and Kory's wedding) 

Thing is, everything she tells Dick here is true, and is a true growing moment for her character.  But the sad thing is, the writers pretty much have dropped that to push them back together.  Doesn't mean much of anything now as they decided they weren't going to have Babs stick to her guns. 

It wasn't just "Babs wasn't ready." there's a lot of context of Dick being a (his name) and to be honest their entire relationship is filled with toxicity whether it be Pre-Crisis, New-52 or otherwise. 

Not to mention that Barbara indeed did go to try to get back with Dick once, but when she came to his room he just got through banging Starfire and was taking a shower. As Starfire answered the door wearing his jacket. 

rOPNZ0igRf5gnS4WXegeNMzsEeTPVCZ7X-j0_SjcVVY.jpg

The problem with Babs always being willing to try again is that the writers keep making her fiend for toxic relationships or relationships she knows is toxic.  In the New52 they actually put her in a non toxic relationship where she was legit happy.  But because they want to get the cycle started again, they break them up (for no reason in particular) and have now thrust her back into Dick's arms. It's tiresome at this point.  

Babs deserves better than Dick. And this constant circle needs to end. Either pick Kory or pick Starfire or have them BOTH cut ties with him romantically and have him get with someone else and actually have a stable relationship.  

The problem is, no matter how much better Babs deserves, the writers never let her leave the vortex. Signifying her as being "okay" with being this 'other woman' that is 'sometimes the priority' and 'sometimes isn't' in Dick's life.  Which is horrible for any kind of character growth. Particularly as she is now the one throwing herself at him. 

As far as Starfire/Dick Grayson goes.  They are the most often paired in media that extends beyond the comic books.  Be it the Teen Titans TV Series, the DCAU, or Titans.  Universally in the world outside of comic books(and its much larger reach) Starfire is paired with Dick. Heck even in the Timm/Dini Animated Universe of BTAS and Batman Beyond, Barbara says her feelings for Dick were puppy love she eventually grew out of.  Even in the Arkham video games where the Killing Joke is canon, Barbara doesn't even wind up with Dick Grayson. However the problem is, the comics aren't tied to actually allowing characters to consistently grow if they just want to rehash something for the 50th time.   Barbara could grow across 3-4 films and have that growth seem consistent.  Meanwhile in the comics Barbara could grow across 10 years, but the comics can decide at any time to go back on it.    Probably the most frustrating things about comics, or this constant loop they keep throwing Barbara into.

----------


## Godlike13

Babs very rarely throws herself at Dick. She has thrown herself at Jason cause he reminded her of Dick though, grossly enough. Pretty much their either relationship is Babs putting up walls Dick has to constantly hurdle over. Most of Babs relationships are doomed before they start because they either pick random dudes that are never going to stand a chance, or boring yes men that don’t create story or serve her character. So Dick has become her most prominent love interest by far and the only one they can rely on to generate any actual fan interest. 
And quite frankly it makes her look like a star by having the often regarded hottest dude in their universe constantly chasing after her. I love Babs, but Dick is not desperate when it comes to romantic options. So seeing him continuously chasing her to only be half heartedly rejected over and over doesn’t really do him any favors. Dick is generally regarded as a top prospect in that area. He is DC’s male fan service character even. The issue with Babs is that there isn’t better then Dick, or its at least very hard to find someone. He’s a super hot dude, that is heroic and genuinely one of the kindest people in their universe, who also happens to be a gymnast and is beloved. And oh ya, he adores her. The nerdy librarian. It’s the reverse Perter Parker. The real problem with Babs is trying to convince audiences to accept someone other then Dick is a challenge for them. One that usually ends with them just conceding and bringing back Dick to chase after her.

----------


## Majesty

> Babs has never thrown herself at Dick. She has thrown herself at Jason cause he reminded her of Dick though, grossly enough. Pretty much their either relationship is Babs putting up walls Dick has to constantly hurdle over. Most of Babs relationships are doomed before they start because they either pick random dudes that are never going to stand a chance, or boring yes men that don’t create story or serve her character. So Dick has become her most prominent love interest by far and the only one they can rely on to generate and actual fan interest. And quite frankly makes her look like a star by having the often regarded hottest dude in their universe constantly chasing after her.


Hottest dude.. and simultaneously the worst partner ever. 

wejoe3qsq0i71.jpg
ghyevs0tq0i71.jpg
*spoilers:*

https://preview.redd.it/epk8amatq0i7...=webp&04553f95

*end of spoilers*

Babs going back to that doesn't make her look strong or more interesting.  And it only garners fan interest in the wars between people that ship Kory and him vs the people that ship Babs and him, not their actual relationship.   The argument "she's with Dick because that's the only way she can really be relevant because she is on his arm" is probably one of the single worst things that can be said of her.

Meanwhile Grayson constantly shifts between multiple relationships, hurting people simultaneously in the process even after promising not to break their hearts, and still gets the reputation of being this wholesome honorable guy and an entire issue pretty much dedicating every page to going "Dick's the greatest guy ever!!".  Yeah....

----------


## Rac7d*

> They clearly want to keep this drama going, that's the reason why they're doing this. Cheap drama for the sake of cheap drama, because fans will react, and it will never stop.


It’s cheap in Titans becuase they know the same groups of people clinging to a cartoon from 19 years ago will
Flock to it. But again we know from experience anything in that comic is not final and can be undone, Batworld has final say and ripples to the rest of the universe

----------


## Drako

> Not to mention that Barbara indeed did go to try to get back with Dick once, but when she came to his room he just got through banging Starfire and was taking a shower. As Starfire answered the door wearing his jacket.


She went to his place some time after he tried to confess to her (she listened, but faked being asleep) to try and start a relationship, not go back to him cause they never had anything up until that point.

----------


## Majesty

> She went to his place some time after he tried to confess to her (she listened, but faked being asleep) to try and start a relationship, not go back to him cause they never had anything up until that point.


Dick's priorities

1) Try to get something started with Barbara. If it works go to 4. 
2) If 1 doesn't work, go sleep with Kory till she has to do homeworld stuff. 
3) If 2 wasn't enough, go sleep with/start a relationship with someone else. Then go to 4. 
4) Break her heart and try Number 1 again.

----------


## Drako

> Dick's priorities
> 
> 1) Try to get something started with Barbara
> 2) If 1 doesn't work, go sleep with Kory till she has to do homeworld stuff. 
> 3) If 2 wasn't enough, go sleep with/start a relationship with someone else. 
> 4) Break their heart and try Number 1.


Do you read the books or get your information on Tumblr?

The thing of him trying to confess to Babs was years before he met Kory. He had a long relationship with Kory for years, he didn't just sleep with her.

----------


## Godlike13

> Hottest dude.. and simultaneously the worst partner ever. 
> 
> wejoe3qsq0i71.jpg
> ghyevs0tq0i71.jpg
> *spoilers:*
> 
> https://preview.redd.it/epk8amatq0i7...=webp&04553f95
> 
> *end of spoilers*
> ...


Life of a superhero. Their romantic life is painfully complicated. Especially true for Dick and Babs, where bad timing has become the overused excuse to keep there relationship in a constant state of teasing. Neither going back makes either look strong or more interesting at this point thanks to the way DC has abuse this relationship to keep audiences on a perpetual hook. While with Dick it might create wars between people that ship Kory and him vs the people that ship Babs, with Babs there is no war. Dick is her top love interest uncontested. Since her return to Batgirl Babs has been in more relationships, with little concern, yet Dick is still routinely brought in to remind readers how he’ll still always be on her hook. Do you think thats solely for his benefit. You think the Burnside team brought him in to make him look good. Dick can be a dick, sure, but Babs is not exactly punching down with him being her Mary Jane.

----------


## Majesty

> Do you read the books or get your information on Tumblr?
> 
> The thing of him trying to confess to Babs was years before he met Kory. He had a long relationship with Kory for years, he didn't just sleep with her.


Just meme'ing on that post. 

But correct my timeline if I'm wrong. 

Dick had a crush on Barbara before he met Starfire.
Dick met Starfire while he was on the Titans.
Dick had a relationship with Starfire before he ever dated Barbara.
Barbara goes to see Dick with flowers to see if a relationship can start, and finds him post-sex with Starfire. 
Starfire had to go back to her planet to be in an arranged marriage. 
She essentially left that marriage to be with Dick.
Dick and Kory decide to get married. 
Dick sleeps with Barbara after she gets paralyzed and then invites her to he and Kory's wedding.
Their wedding is ruined by Raven who puts part of herself in Starfire, unbeknownst to the evil side of herself.
Shes goes back home. 
He starts dating Barbara. 
Kory comes back. 
Kory and Dick start having sex again.  
Dick also does stuff with Huntress. 
The constant love triangle is too much for her so she leaves. Particularly as they can't stop their physical stuff whenever she's around. (okay..problematic but okay...) 
Then New52 (about when I stopped reading comics consistently) 
Babs is happy and in a relationship with Luke, which is non-toxic, very understanding and very supportive. 
Dick returns after being dead supposedly to her friends wedding. Steals the ring to make Babs come with him and tries to make Babs cheat on Luke with him.  
Babs goes 'no you're toxic' Dick goes 'say whaaaaaaaaaaaaa-' 
Rebirth or something
They meet again and Babs tries to make out with him out of nowhere. (yes throwing herself at him) 
Dick tells Babs he's moving on and promises not to break the other girl's heart. 
The girl is Shawn. He hurts her and does indeed break her heart. 
Dick does and says some messed up things and Shawn is done with him. (but now they write it that Shawn blames herself....okay.....problematic but okay.... King Shark new bestie now..) 
Dick goes and sleeps with Huntress again. 
Becomes Ric
Eventually Ric starts dating Beatrice. 
Gets his memory back but tells Beatrice that despite the fact he was Ric he was in love with her the whole time. 
Then the writers decide he isn't and have the idea of Batman's "We can't be superheroes and be happy..." But then when Batman wants to be with Selena Kyle then he's all "I CAN BE BATMAN AND HAPPY...." to his father and punching him in the face" -_-   And more and more I see this is why I stopped reading comics consistently...    Batman is all "happiness isn't for us Dick..."  Dick is like "You're so right I'ma leave Beatrice." and Batman is all "Great. So I'm gonna be with Selena and be happy, cause I made that decision, cause I'm Batman."   And then the DC Writers go "Alright let's start this whole toxic triangle again and put Dick and Babs together"  and it just gets tiring.

Unless you're Superman and Lois whenever the relationship gets to "Oh we're at a place where we can be completely supportive of each other and not cause drama." is hit, the writing goes "what do you wanna do?  Um... let's make something happen that causes them both realize they need to take a break, or break them up.  So that way we can start the cycle all over again if we want to!"  Which is the kind of writing that made me stop caring about BatCat.  But again, it's all very tiring at this point.  NOT(or rather stopping) getting super invested in comics storytelling and consistency, particularly when it came to how they write relationships and their constant wheels... was the best decision I ever made for my own mental health lol.   But each time I check in, I'm immediately reminded of why I stopped reading them consistently in the first place.

----------


## L.H.

Dick and Kory are not dating. 

Taylor is Nightwing's writer, so I think he knows enough.

What happened in TTA was BEFORE Dick went back to Bludhaven, before he knew about Alfred's will and everything else. Months ago, just as Taylor said on Twitter.
 As far as we know, that scene could have happened even before the "wedding" in Death Metal. If you need something to blame, blame it on Sheridan, not Dick.

Also, that panel about Shawn is bullshit. She is not blaming him, @Majesty, you know? She is stating what happened. And no, it's not Dick fault he lost his memory.

----------


## Digifiend

That's true, as the Academy was actually established in the last issue of the previous TT run in November, before the Endless Winter event in December. Future State, where Sheridan took over the Titans, was the following month. Since that means it was published during Death Metal, it could've been before or after it.

----------


## Majesty

> Dick and Kory are not dating. 
> 
> Taylor is Nightwing's writer, so I think he knows enough.
> 
> What happened in TTA was BEFORE Dick went back to Bludhaven, before he knew about Alfred's will and everything else. Months ago, just as Taylor said on Twitter.
>  As far as we know, that scene could have happened even before the "wedding" in Death Metal. If you need something to blame, blame it on Sheridan, not Dick.
> 
> Also, that panel about Shawn is bullshit. She is not blaming him, @Majesty, you know? She is stating what happened. And no, it's not Dick fault he lost his memory.


No it's not Dick's fault he lost his memory. It was the messed up things he said and did to her WHICH HE ADMITTED were messed up and on him. 

Dick was the one saying "I screwed up. What I did/said was crappy! It's just my unrealistic standards for myself and everyone else issues. But I can change." speech and Shawn wasn't having it. 

Dick was so torn up about it he soon after went and slept with Huntress.

But now it's essentially written at least if we go by King Shark#1 like Shawn puts the blame squarely on herself now.

Biggest problem I have with Babs and Dick relationships the past few years if they are in what could be far more interesting situations and relationships, but the writers never really give them a chance to breathe and are in a rush to hurry things to drama or to an ending(even if it doesn't make any sense).  

What he was doing with Shawn? I found that very interesting.  But as expected the writers didn't give it that much time to breathe before they had to throw in the 'relationship changing drama' we've all come to accustomed to.  But talking about these two(Dick or Babs and how they're written) Dick says its his fault, now time later Shawn says it's all her fault and she takes the blame. All that circling that comics love to do nowadays just makes my head hurt. So I'll just bow out for now lol

----------


## L.H.

> No it's not Dick's fault he lost his memory. It was the messed up things he said and did to her WHICH HE ADMITTED were messed up and on him. 
> 
> Dick was the one saying "I screwed up. What I did/said was crappy! It's just my unrealistic standards for myself and everyone else issues. But I can change." speech and Shawn wasn't having it. 
> 
> Dick was so torn up about it he soon after went and slept with Huntress.
> 
> But now it's essentially written at least if we go by King Shark#1 like Shawn puts the blame squarely on herself now.


Lol, you know it's the same writer, right? 

Dick is always blaming himself for everything, nothing new. When he does that, it's his fault, when others get to understand there were wrong, it's writer's fault. That's how you see it only because you want to blame him. 

Well, when I red the run, I thought Shawn was wrong, and she grew on me in King Shark because she was able to admit her fault.

----------


## Badou

> Dick didn't just "show up at her friend's wedding to tell her he loved her."   
> 
> He showed up at the wedding, he stole her friend's engagement ring in order to force her to come with her.  Meanwhile he tried to get her to cheat on Luke whom he was just introduced to as her boyfriend.


I get you don't like Dick's character and don't want him with Barbara, but the scene was obviously meant to be Dick showing he had feelings for Barbara still in a playful way but it was just written poorly. Luke is a complete non character so it was never going to be a romance that went anywhere in the end. He is such a non character they passed over him to be the new black Batman in favor of his brother. If you liked them together then that is fine but it was never going to be anything more than a fling for a story arc. 

Also the other example you posted from the Nightwing story with Babs showing up at his door was really far into the past. The examples I mentioned were of moments after Babs broke off their engagement. Which is the turning point that marked their current dynamic that has been going on for like 15 years now. With them stuck in this will they/won't they limbo. Where Dick is the one mostly chasing her and she comes up with reasons why they can't be together. From the timing not being right, where each other is located, and that one or both are already in a relationship that mainly exists just to prevent them from being together. Dick has his own stories so he isn't going to just wait around for her to say yes to him and will have other relationships. I mean recently that is a big reason why Bea's whole character existed in that awful Ric story. Where she existed to just get in between Dick and Babs where you even had Babs show up to Bludhaven to threaten her about her relationship with Dick/Ric. 

But I am on record not liking him either either Starfire or Babs. I don't think Dick is some saint or anything and never in the wrong, but I'm mostly over romance in comics in general at this point, and if you made me choose then I'll pick Babs because I think she offers more utility for stories and you are a lot more limited in what you can do with Starfire as a character. Plus I'd pick the Batman franchise over the Titans franchise for Dick given the complete lack of any good Titans stories for him in decades. Also if you want to talk about relationships being toxic then I think the Starfire one was worse in my opinion. From Dick being raped and her getting angry at him for it, and of course the whole marriage drama where Dick was so upset she had to marry someone else. I get stories back then were hyper dramatic, as that was the style, but it was also the era that I think really formed the whole "Dick has anger problems" thing because of it too. It wasn't fun.

----------


## Drako

> Just meme'ing on that post. 
> 
> But correct my timeline if I'm wrong. 
> 
> Dick had a crush on Barbara before he met Starfire.
> Dick met Starfire while he was on the Titans.
> Dick had a relationship with Starfire before he ever dated Barbara.
> Barbara goes to see Dick with flowers to see if a relationship can start, and finds him post-sex with Starfire. 
> Starfire had to go back to her planet to be in an arranged marriage. 
> ...


Until this part is right.

To be clear, i absolutely hate Annual #2.
Neither Dick or Babs came out well in that shit. 




> He starts dating Barbara. 
> Kory comes back. 
> Kory and Dick start having sex again.


Dick and Kory never had anything after his Teen Titans run and he pretty much became a Bat character.

He was in a relationship with Barbara from the 90s up until the infinite crisis, were he supposed to die. He proposes to her in what was he last book as Nightwing before "One Year Later" but the plans got scrached and he was still alive. Babs decide to not marry him and he moves to New York.

Years later he and Kory did have sex during Titans by Winnick, but he was not with Barbara anymore and they were under influence of Trigon.




> Dick also does stuff with Huntress. 
> The constant love triangle is too much for her so she leaves. Particularly as they can't stop their physical stuff whenever she's around. (okay..problematic but okay...)


He had a thing with Huntress before dating Barbara in the 90s. 
There is no love triangle. Helena and Barbara weren't even friends.





> Then New52 (about when I stopped reading comics consistently) 
> Rebirth or something
> They meet again and Babs tries to make out with him out of nowhere. (yes throwing herself at him)


This is the New 52. They weren't together and was pretty much implied they never had anything other than flirt with each other.





> Dick tells Babs he's moving on and promises not to break the other girl's heart.


I don't remember this, was from Rebirth? I think it was. Can you point me which in issue was?




> The girl is Shawn. He hurts her and does indeed break her heart. 
> Dick does and says some messed up things and Shawn is done with him. (but now they write it that Shawn blames herself....okay.....problematic but okay.... King Shark new bestie now..)
> Dick goes and sleeps with Huntress again.


The thing with Shawn was messed up, yes. She was a villain trying to get into the good side. She didn't have much control of her actions and start to act more uncontrollable.

He should helped her, but they broke up.
After that, Helena went to Bludhaven. This Helena is different form the Huntress that he had a relationship before the New 52. In any case, they were pretty much atracted to each other during his time as a Spy, but they did not have much going on. They finally start having something, after he broke up with Shawn. Which, again, i agree it's messed up. 

Helena brokes up with him. He take a bullet to the head and became someone else.





> Becomes Ric
> Eventually Ric starts dating Beatrice. 
> Gets his memory back but tells Beatrice that despite the fact he was Ric he was in love with her the whole time.


Not what happened. He goes to Bea and say that Rick was another person and he don't have that feelings. That was a lie, because he still had the memories about them, and the feelings. She was just attacked by KGBeast, he didn't want her being part of that life.

They had to close the Ric chapter and Bea was part of it. 





> Then the writers decide he isn't and have the idea of Batman's "We can't be superheroes and be happy..."  till Batman wants to be with Selena Kyle then he's all "I CAN BE BATMAN AND HAPPY...." to his father -_-   And more and more I see this is why I stopped reading comics consistently...


I don't like most of the decision DC makes for him and i can agree when is messed up. But i think it's very important to have the context to all those decisions.

----------


## Majesty

> Until this part is right.
> 
> To be clear, i absolutely hate Annual #2.
> Neither Dick or Babs came out well in that shit. 
> 
> 
> 
> Dick and Kory never had anything after his Teen Titans run and he pretty much became a Bat character.
> 
> ...




Sadly Shawn and that situation was probably the most invested I'd been in a while, because I sadly for a moment actually expected them to let it breathe the way it should have and continue to develop.  But then when they broke them up which was very messed up and I'm glad we agree there  :Smile:  It just made me sigh and go "here we go again.."  

And eventually.. I just got tired of saying "here we go again" when it comes to these characters.  

For the "Don't break her heart" moment here you go 

wejoe3qsq0i71.jpg

Dialogue: 

Dick: I just stayed in the air, going where the current took me. Staying up above it all meant I never had to choose a place to put my feet on the ground.  But I've chosen now. A place to swing back to. And a person.  

Babs: And it's not Gotham. And it's not-- (Babs pulls her hand away) 
Babs (kisses Dick on the head): Don't break her heart, Dick Grayson. 

Problem is this was a GREAT a FANTASTIC growing moment for the BOTH of them and would have been the perfect place to end it on and let them go on and be their own people without needing to be together.  Particularly after everything.   

"Don't break her heart Dick Grayson." 
1m2iinbe5kt41.jpg

And now we know what happens after....

I hate when these growing moments make you expect that they are actually going to let characters grow.... and then stuff like with Shawn happens and it's ... sigh. Yeah, it's why I got tired of "here we go again"s.

----------


## Drako

> Sadly Shawn and that situation was probably the most invested I'd been in a while, because I sadly for a moment actually expected them to let it breathe the way it should have and continue to develop.  But then when they broke them up which was very messed up and I'm glad we agree there  It just made me sigh and go "here we go again.."  
> 
> And eventually.. I just got tired of saying "here we go again" when it comes to these characters.  
> 
> For the "Don't break her heart" moment here you go 
> 
> Dialogue: 
> 
> Dick: I just stayed in the air, going where the current took me. Staying up above it all meant I never had to choose a place to put my feet on the ground.  But I've chosen now. A place to swing back to. And a person.  
> ...


Oh, ok. It's from Seeley's run, i forgot that. 

I never expected Shawn to be with him for much time. I remember the backlash Seeley got after Dick said he loved Shawn and after the fake pregnancy stuff. I never liked how Seeley ended their relationship, but i expected to end soon or later.  

People don't want him with unknown characters. They want him either with Babs or Kory. 

The thing now going for them is that Tom Taylor is 1) a respected writer, 2) have the sales of the book going up like we didn't saw for a long time so i think DC is giving him free range 3) is the type of writer that respect relationships so i think he can make this work.

Like i said here before, i like him and Babs toghter and i hope the make this permantly already cause i really dislike the "Will they Won't they" routine.

----------


## L.H.

> Sadly Shawn and that situation was probably the most invested I'd been in a while, because I sadly for a moment actually expected them to let it breathe the way it should have and continue to develop.  But then when they broke them up which was very messed up and I'm glad we agree there  It just made me sigh and go "here we go again.."  
> 
> And eventually.. I just got tired of saying "here we go again" when it comes to these characters.  
> 
> For the "Don't break her heart" moment here you go 
> 
> wejoe3qsq0i71.jpg
> 
> Dialogue: 
> ...


You keep saying it was Dick's fault, 'cause he broke her heart. 
That's not what I remember. I remember him being honest about his own feelings and ready to try again, I remember Shawn telling him they were done.
She broke his heart as much as he broke her's, if not more. 
That's why he went back to Helena.

Also, you said Kory left his marriage because of him, but you probably forgot how much that marriage broke Dick. 
You keep looking at only one side of his relationships, siding always with the other part and blaming everything on him. 
That's not how it works. In every break out there are always two truths. 

Dick always cared for and loved his partners, even after they become exes.
You can say you don't like how he works through his relationships, but you can't call him the worst partner.

----------


## Rac7d*

> Oh, ok. It's from Seeley's run, i forgot that. 
> 
> I never expected Shawn to be with him for much time. I remember the backlash Seeley got after Dick said he loved Shawn and after the fake pregnancy stuff. I never liked how Seeley ended their relationship, but i expected to end soon or later.  
> 
> People don't want him with unknown characters. They want him either with Babs or Kory. 
> 
> The thing now going for them is that Tom Taylor is 1) a respected writer, 2) have the sales of the book going up like we didn't saw for a long time so i think DC is giving him free range 3) is the type of writer that respect relationships so i think he can make this work.
> 
> Like i said here before, i like him and Babs toghter and i hope the make this permantly already cause i really dislike the "Will they Won't they" routine.


 It can be tiring  however it’s not all the writers fault 

We had a world ending situation 
His faux death/Spyral
Shot in the head/memory wipe
Death Metal

Everytime a writer builds them back up somthing shattering happens that interferes 
Tim has enough weight I think we can be assured of some stability. DC won’t interfere with a successful run, that also being back by their live action media and games. We just have to be patient.

----------


## Drako

> You keep saying it was Dick's fault, 'cause he broke her heart. 
> That's not what I remember. I remember him being honest about his own feelings and ready to try again, I remember Shawn telling him they were done.
> She broke his heart as much as he broke her's, if not more. 
> That's why he went back to Helena.
> 
> Also, you said Kory left his marriage because of him, but you probably forgot how much that marriage broke Dick. 
> You keep looking at only one side of his relationships, siding always with the other part and blaming everything on him. 
> That's not how it works. In every break out there are always two truths. 
> 
> ...


When DC allowed him to have a long relationship, they were great. There is a reason why people root for him with Barbara or Starfire, because their relationship were long and stable. But for some reason DC needs the drama. 

And it's not like he didn't have a bunch of toxic partners too. Liu, fhe first woman he had sex, was using him to get to Wayne enterprises. Tarantula raped him. Raya Vestri tricked him and try to kill him.

----------


## L.H.

You forgot Mirage. 

I agree about the long term relationship, that's one of the reasons why I hate Devine Grayson's run.

----------


## Drako

> You forgot Mirage. 
> 
> I agree about the long term relationship, that's one of the reasons why I hate Devine Grayson's run.


Yeah, but Mirage raped him for "the fun of it", he was with Starfire at the time. And Kory blame him for being raped.

----------


## L.H.

Kory was horrible to him, probably that's what ruined their relationship for me.

----------


## The World

Never mind. Not even worth it.

----------


## Restingvoice

> I think nobody really has a solid timeline in mind. TTA writer knew that Babs is in Bludhave and used that.


Oh I know. I'm checking if it can fit. 




> Dick and Kory are not dating. 
> 
> Taylor is Nightwing's writer, so I think he knows enough.
> 
> What happened in TTA was BEFORE Dick went back to Bludhaven, before he knew about Alfred's will and everything else. Months ago, just as Taylor said on Twitter.
>  As far as we know, that scene could have happened even before the "wedding" in Death Metal. If you need something to blame, blame it on Sheridan, not Dick.


Months ago don't add up because TTA mentioned Babs and Bludhaven while Nightwing was surprised when he saw Babs in Bludhaven, but like above said, they're not really thinking detailed. 




> That's true, as the Academy was actually established in the last issue of the previous TT run in November, before the Endless Winter event in December. Future State, where Sheridan took over the Titans, was the fo
> llowing month. Since that means it was published during Death Metal, it could've been before or after it.


After. When Death Metal was over the timeline resets to before Batman Who Laughs attacked, which is after the end of Snyder's Justice League and Justice Doom War, but in this new timeline, there's no Metal. 

Instead, after Joker War happened and Dick regained his memory, Donna visited him for the first time in the hotel room and Dick received Damian's letter so they approached the Teen Titans with the idea. Dick went to Christmas dinner in Bruce's place, then there's Endless Winter, A-Day in spring, and a month after that the current Bat family timeline stories begin.

So they were building the Academy over the winter, opening in spring.

===

So a Dick Kori fan was questioning the relationship status on Twitter, but later, they have been convinced that Dick and Kori's sex was just a birthday gift during the time where Dick hasn't begun a relationship with Barbara because the writers said so but I haven't found where they said so.

So yeah. Apparently it was a birthday gift and they haven't committed further than that. I guess Kori wanted more or thinking it will open a possibility, since at that time Dick hasn't committed to anyone, but once the phone call happened, even with Dick trying convince her that it was nothing, and it _was_ nothing at that time, she can guess what will happen and decided to closed it off. 

Well, that's simpler, I'll just place it somewhere during the montage in #83. (I forgot that in #80 Dick spent the day trying to find Heartless)

----------


## Konja7

> Yeah, but Mirage raped him for "the fun of it", he was with Starfire at the time. And Kory blame him for being raped.





> Kory was horrible to him, probably that's what ruined their relationship for me.


Not wanting to get into this debate, but Barbara slut-shamed Dick when he was raped by Tarantula.

We need to accept that the writers don't take seriously the fact that Dick was raped by a woman. I wouldn't blame characters for that.

----------


## SiegePerilous02

I wouldn't blame either Kory or Barbara for how they were written during the respective rape storylines. Clearly the authors were just not equipped to deal with the subject matter.

I think the romance with Kory isn't very healthy in the long run though, just going on what Wolfman and Perez gave us. She was good to help him be more in touch with his emotions and not pressure himself to be like Bruce, but they just seemed like they constantly had to  babysit each other: Kory so Dick wouldn't become too obsessed and serious, Dick so that she wouldn't fly off the handle and kill someone. Like they are two young early 20-somethings who are very passionate, but the passion burns hot and fast and isn't the best foundation for long term stability.

----------


## Rac7d*

> Not wanting to get into this debate, but Barbara slut-shamed Dick when he was raped by Tarantula.
> 
> We need to accept that the writers don't take seriously the fact that Dick was raped by a woman. I wouldn't blame characters for that.


Blame Devin Grayson for that, she did . She made nightwing Romani to “make him more exotic”. Contributed further sexualized him, wrote the infamous rape scene and Babs comments after that. Say her name Devin Grayson is an awful writer and blame it all on her!!!!     I can fault a fictional character for what their writer choose to do with them, or else I guess we have to accept Starfire New 52 opening issue of being a nymphomaniac who sleeps with her ex fiancé little brother and best friend.

----------


## L.H.

> Oh I know. I'm checking if it can fit. 
> 
> 
> 
> Months ago don't add up because TTA mentioned Babs and Bludhaven while Nightwing was surprised when he saw Babs in Bludhaven, but like above said, they're not really thinking detailed. 
> 
> 
> 
> After. When Death Metal was over the timeline resets to before Batman Who Laughs attacked, which is after the end of Snyder's Justice League and Justice Doom War, but in this new timeline, there's no Metal. 
> ...


I like your timeline, you've made a great work, and it makes sense.

But Taylor himself said it happened months ago. He clearly means before his own run. Regardless of what Sheridan wrote, I think both of them are aware, that, birthday present or not, they were not going to be a thing. Sheridan probably wrote his issue before reading Taylor's one.

----------


## Starrius

> I wouldn't blame either Kory or Barbara for how they were written during the respective rape storylines. Clearly the authors were just not equipped to deal with the subject matter.
> 
> I think the romance with Kory isn't very healthy in the long run though, just going on what Wolfman and Perez gave us. She was good to help him be more in touch with his emotions and not pressure himself to be like Bruce, but they just seemed like they constantly had to  babysit each other: Kory so Dick wouldn't become too obsessed and serious, Dick so that she wouldn't fly off the handle and kill someone. Like they are two young early 20-somethings who are very passionate, but the passion burns hot and fast and isn't the best foundation for long term stability.



Kory learned her lesson that killing was wrong during the South Africa apartheid storyline.
That was after she returned to Earth and before she got back together with Dick.

----------


## Starrius

> Blame Devin Grayson for that, she did . She made nightwing Romani to “make him more exotic”. Contributed further sexualized him, wrote the infamous rape scene and Babs comments after that. Say her name Devin Grayson is an awful writer and blame it all on her!!!!     I can fault a fictional character for what their writer choose to do with them, or else I guess we have to accept Starfire New 52 opening issue of being a nymphomaniac who sleeps with her ex fiancé little brother and best friend.


Kory had a relationship with Roy, but she didn't have sex with Jason
Kory and Jason were shown just talking.

----------


## Frontier

> Not wanting to get into this debate, but Barbara slut-shamed Dick when he was raped by Tarantula.
> 
> We need to accept that the writers don't take seriously the fact that Dick was raped by a woman. I wouldn't blame characters for that.


Sometimes I think Babs being self-righteous and uncritical of herself is an actual character trait.

----------


## Starrius

> Kory was horrible to him, probably that's what ruined their relationship for me.


Their relationship was meant to be ruined.   

The storyline that had Kory be mean to Dick because of the Mirage stuff happened because it was a process leading to their breakup with Dick leaving the Titans office and returning to the Batman's office. 

The original plan was to have Dick and Kory get married after Dick going on an adventure to save Kory and establish himself as a major superhero. 
The plan changed after the writers dropped out and Dick was taken back by the Batman office.  
Batman office wanted Dick and Kory broken up. 
Therefore, we got the Mirage thing with Kory angry with Dick who was acting very possessive  and Raven crashing Dick and Kory's wedding and making Kory crazy which ultimately led to Kory breaking up with Dick and leaving Earth. 
The storyline came off so editorially driven like One More Day.


I was a 20+ year Dick/Barbara fan as the result of the Batman animated series. 
I became a Dick/Kory fan after reading the 1980-1994 Wolfman Titans run back in 2018.
I now strongly dislike Dick/Barbara after reading and learning about the retcons that downgraded Dick/Kory to prop up Dick/Barbara.

----------


## Rac7d*

> Kory had a relationship with Roy, but she didn't have sex with Jason
> Kory and Jason were shown just talking.


doesnt matter, if they didnt make it past this one issue that does her no favors



my point being that no character can be made accountable to doing wild thing becasue of one writer.

----------


## Starrius

> doesnt matter, if they didnt make it past this one issue that does her no favors
> 
> 
> 
> my point being that no character can be made accountable to doing wild thing becasue of one writer.



There are comic panels that reveal that nothing sexual happened between Jason and Kory.

I see no problem with her being with Roy due to her not being with Dick at the time.

----------


## Starrius

> I wouldn't blame either Kory or Barbara for how they were written during the respective rape storylines. Clearly the authors were just not equipped to deal with the subject matter.
> 
> I think the romance with Kory isn't very healthy in the long run though, just going on what Wolfman and Perez gave us. She was good to help him be more in touch with his emotions and not pressure himself to be like Bruce, but they just seemed like they constantly had to  babysit each other: Kory so Dick wouldn't become too obsessed and serious, Dick so that she wouldn't fly off the handle and kill someone. Like they are two young early 20-somethings who are very passionate, but the passion burns hot and fast and isn't the best foundation for long term stability.


Kory was hurt by the Mirage thing.   She thought Dick would be able to tell her apart from any other woman because of their connection like she thought she could do with Dick.

She was a bit disappointed in Dick's lack of perception.


She was also insecure about Dick's love for her.    She even thought that maybe Mirage can be whatever Dick wants while Dick was thinking the opposite.   

Dick was acting like a possessive jerk and irrational up to the actual wedding that got crashed by Raven.

It was part of the soap opera drama storyline that was created to end Dick/Kory after Dick was returned to the Batman office. 

The original plan was for Dick and Kory to marry after Dick rescues Kory and establishes himself as a major hero. 
The plan changed after the writer and editor left and Dick was returned to Batman office.

----------


## Drako

> There are comic panels that reveal that nothing sexual happened between *Roy and Kory*.
> 
> I see no problem with her being with Roy due to her not being with Dick at the time.


I think you mean Jason here.

----------


## Starrius

> I think you mean Jason here.


Yeah...I meant Jason............sorry about that error
I am embarrassed. 
UGH!
I will make the correction.
thanks for pointing it out

----------


## L.H.

> Their relationship was meant to be ruined.   
> 
> The storyline that had Kory be mean to Dick because of the Mirage stuff happened because it was a process leading to their breakup with Dick leaving the Titans office and returning to the Batman's office. 
> 
> The original plan was to have Dick and Kory get married after Dick going on an adventure to save Kory and establish himself as a major superhero. 
> The plan changed after the writers dropped out and Dick was taken back by the Batman office.  
> Batman office wanted Dick and Kory broken up. 
> Therefore, we got the Mirage thing with Kory angry with Dick who was acting very possessive  and Raven crashing Dick and Kory's wedding and making Kory crazy which ultimately led to Kory breaking up with Dick and leaving Earth. 
> The storyline came off so editorially driven like One More Day.
> ...


Sorry, that's not true. 

The failed wedding happened in August 1993, one year after Mirage's rape, Dick and Babs started dating in 1998 or 1999, almost five years after the wedding and 6 after the rape. 

It's true that DC stopped Dick and Kory wedding for bringing him back in Batman's franchise, but that didn't involve Babs.

Also, the whole Mirage thing was a pushing into the wedding, 'cause Dick wanted to prove Kory he loves her. That's what triggers me, and it was all Wolfman's fault. 

The wedding got cancelled last minute: in Flash #81 (published on September 1993) Dick and Kory were a married couple, Waid didn't had time to change that in his story.

----------


## AmiMizuno

Overall I think maybe we shouldn't even give her any of the Batboys but someone from Tamara that way it stays in her area. Dc had their change from having him with Starfire before they wanted the marriage to stop or Babs but they made her think he is cheating. Also Babs has slut shamed Bruce with Poison Ivy raped him. So Dc really wants Babs overall a judgy person. Overall Dc had a long time to make Babs cannon but they never really did. The same with Kori. They want both. Dc just wants both ships even if it makes Babs or Kori look bad

If anything Dc would be smart and have one couple simply be elsewhere stories . Dc could have allowed Perez and Wolfman to do their miniseries.They can't keep going on with the love triangle. it's been thirty years they had a long time to make Babs more of a stable relationship but all it ever is she fickle or judgy and breaks up with him

Overall with the Titan show. I wonder what will happen with the two they said the DickKori fans will be happy.They have big plans for them

----------


## Zaresh

> doesnt matter, if they didnt make it past this one issue that does her no favors
> 
> 
> 
> my point being that no character can be made accountable to doing wild thing becasue of one writer.


I think Jason was messing with Roy. He does that.

----------


## Godlike13

> I think Jason was messing with Roy. He does that.


More the writer had to later do damage control.

----------


## Starrius

> Sorry, that's not true. 
> 
> The failed wedding happened in August 1993, one year after Mirage's rape, Dick and Babs started dating in 1998 or 1999, almost five years after the wedding and 6 after the rape. 
> 
> It's true that DC stopped Dick and Kory wedding for bringing him back in Batman's franchise, but that didn't involve Babs.
> 
> Also, the whole Mirage thing was a pushing into the wedding, 'cause Dick wanted to prove Kory he loves her. That's what triggers me, and it was all Wolfman's fault. 
> 
> The wedding got cancelled last minute: in Flash #81 (published on September 1993) Dick and Kory were a married couple, Waid didn't had time to change that in his story.



I never mentioned anything about Barbara in regards to DC stopping Dick and Kory wedding for bringing him back in Batman's franchise

----------


## L.H.

> I never mentioned anything about Barbara in regards to DC stopping Dick and Kory wedding for bringing him back in Batman's franchise


You said Kory reaction to Mirage's rape was planned to end their relationship. You called it "editorial driven" the whole part. 
I answered showing you how Dick and Kory were still going to get married one year after the rape.
So no, their relationship was not meant to fail when Wolfman wrote her slut shaming Dick.
I added about Babs just to clarify things, 'cause you were talking about bad retcons and I didn't know what you meant.

----------


## Iclifton

Between Seeley to Taylor I was not reading Nightwing regularly. After rereading Seeleys last arc, I`m curious, have Dick and Helena had any interactions. Kind of a super anti-climatic way to end a relationship that had been built up since Grayson. She had a much better dynamic with Dick than Shawn did.

----------


## Drako

> Between Seeley to Taylor I was not reading Nightwing regularly. After rereading Seeleys last arc, I`m curious, have Dick and Helena had any interactions. Kind of a super anti-climatic way to end a relationship that had been built up since Grayson. She had a much better dynamic with Dick than Shawn did.


I don't think so. After Seeley's run we had Sam Humphries and then Ben Percy, none of them had Huntress in the book. Then he became Ric.

----------


## Iclifton

Lame. Really loved their dynamic. Seeleys ending was kind of a slap in the face to fans of the pair in Grayson.

----------


## Drako

> Lame. Really loved their dynamic. Seeleys ending was kind of a slap in the face to fans of the pair in Grayson.


Seeley kinda ended his run putting most thing he setted up to the ground. He killed Raptor (Which for some reason now is alive and part of the Robin book), he ended Dicks relationship with Shawn, he started and ended pretty quickly his relationship with Helena. Oh, and he killed Minos.

----------


## Claude

> Seeley kinda ended his run putting most thing he setted up to the ground. He killed Raptor (Which for some reason now is alive and part of the Robin book), he ended Dicks relationship with Shawn, he started and ended pretty quickly his relationship with Helena. Oh, and he killed Minos.


Yeah, I like Seeley - his run is fine when it's what he wants it to be, "Grayson" is amazing - but by the end it felt like he just wasn't having a good time on the book. 

I know Seeley wrote Helena again in Hellblazer, but it term of her and Dick reactions - Nightwing was in a few issues of Birds Of Prey with her, wasn't he? Was that before or after?

----------


## Iclifton

> Yeah, I like Seeley - his run is fine when it's what he wants it to be, "Grayson" is amazing - but by the end it felt like he just wasn't having a good time on the book. 
> 
> I know Seeley wrote Helena again in Hellblazer, but it term of her and Dick reactions - Nightwing was in a few issues of Birds Of Prey with her, wasn't he? Was that before or after?


I believe that was before. I remember reading specifically to see how their dynamic was handled.

Grayson was spectacular. However, I do think his Nightwing run was a notable step down. The first and third arcs were a highlight and the entire run had good concepts/characters. But man was it on the noise with some cheesy dialogue.

I can already see these tendencies popping up in Robins.....

----------


## Drako

> Yeah, I like Seeley - his run is fine when it's what he wants it to be, "Grayson" is amazing - but by the end it felt like he just wasn't having a good time on the book. 
> 
> I know Seeley wrote Helena again in Hellblazer, but it term of her and Dick reactions - Nightwing was in a few issues of Birds Of Prey with her, wasn't he? Was that before or after?


He was there before, pretty early in that book.
By Issue #8 of Batgirl and the Birds of Prey, he was still with Shawn.

----------


## AmiMizuno

I'm curious. What if we were to take a break from DickKori or Dickbabs for a bit. Anyone up for Hunters or at least Shawn being with Nightwing for a while? I just feel like maybe Dick being with a different woman or single for a while would be good after this reboot or when they break them up.

----------


## Iclifton

> I'm curious. What if we were to take a break from DickKori or Dickbabs for a bit. Anyone up for Hunters or at least Shawn being with Nightwing for a while? I just feel like maybe Dick being with a different woman or single for a while would be good after this reboot or when they break them up.


I don’t mind Barbara and actually really enjoy her in this book. But overall, I’d love Helena and prefer her. Shawn was a little boring to me but not bad. Just not as interesting as any of his other romantic interests.

----------


## Daedalus

Loved the issue - it truly had everything. The art may be my favorite in all of comics right now, both the action and the character moments are a pleasure to read.

Love the interactions with the Batfamily, and adore the continued presence of Barbara and Tim on the book. I actually got emotional during Bruce's phonecall.

This is a feel-good book that encapsulates the idea of Dick Grayson well - it's so good that I actually don't really mind the silly long-lost relative plot.

----------


## hairys

> Dick's plan sounds like something that 15 years old leftist would write on twitter. I know that this is not serious literature, but I think that if you are trying to address "real problems" *then you should put some effort into it.*


Yeah, Dick's plan needs to be fleshed out much, much more (which hopefully happens in future issues).  I'm at least encouraged that he specifically used the words "self-sustaining" in his speech and hopefully Taylor won't just leave it at that; he needs to explain how Dick's charity will continue to bring in money beyond Dick's initial donation of a billion dollars, which simply isn't enough to end Bludhaven's poverty and fund all the things Dick talked about.

Let me add that I don't need Dick's plan to be realistic to the real world.  I'd be perfectly satisfied with semi-realism / comic book logic as long as an attempt at an explanation is given.  So, for example, if Dick starts hitting Blockbuster's drug houses and instead of tying up the bad guys and leaving them and the money for the police to take care of, Dick steals the drug money and feeds it into his foundation, okay, that's at least an explanation.  (Dick's speech hinted at being skeptical of police enforcement.)




> And Dick's involvement with Bludhaven in this way, and the awkward mostly unspoken way that it's a criticism of what Bruce did with _his_ money,


The Wayne Foundation?  Which, as others have explained, was once called the Alfred Foundation.  The devil will be in the details (that hopefully Taylor fleshes out) because so far, Dick hasn't done anything Bruce hasn't done before.

----------


## Aahz

> The Wayne Foundation?  Which, as others have explained, was once called the Alfred Foundation.  The devil will be in the details (that hopefully Taylor fleshes out) because so far, Dick hasn't done anything Bruce hasn't done before.


And Bruce actually worked at the foundation as his day job during the Bronze age. 

It doesn't really sound like Dick will do that...

----------


## Badou

> I'm curious. What if we were to take a break from DickKori or Dickbabs for a bit. Anyone up for Hunters or at least Shawn being with Nightwing for a while? I just feel like maybe Dick being with a different woman or single for a while would be good after this reboot or when they break them up.


Dick hasn't been together with Babs in like 15 years. They have been in a lot of stories together but they haven't been in any kind of actual romance or relationship since their engagement was called off pre-New 52.  They have been stuck in the will they/won't they holding pattern ever since that we always bring up. Even in Taylor's current Nightwing run Dick and Babs weren't together as Dick was sleeping on the couch while Babs was staying at his apartment. So Dick has been together with Helena and Shawn in more official relationships a lot more recent than Babs.

----------


## HsssH

> Life of a superhero. Their romantic life is painfully complicated.


Is there any reason why it has to be this complicated? Just pick one and stop doing "THIS TIME ITS SERIOUS BUSINESS" teases. 




> So a Dick Kori fan was questioning the relationship status on Twitter, but later, they have been convinced that Dick and Kori's sex was just a birthday gift during the time where Dick hasn't begun a relationship with Barbara because the writers said so but I haven't found where they said so.
> 
> So yeah. Apparently it was a birthday gift and they haven't committed further than that. I guess Kori wanted more or thinking it will open a possibility, since at that time Dick hasn't committed to anyone, but once the phone call happened, even with Dick trying convince her that it was nothing, and it _was_ nothing at that time, she can guess what will happen and decided to closed it off. 
> 
> Well, that's simpler, I'll just place it somewhere during the montage in #83. (I forgot that in #80 Dick spent the day trying to find Heartless)


I'm sure that in progressive and liberal circles "sex with an ex as a birthday present" happens and is considered ok, but I can't wrap my head around it. To me it sounds even worse than Dick not being able to decide whom he wants to date.




> Dick hasn't been together with Babs in like 15 years. They have been in a lot of stories together but they haven't been in any kind of actual romance or relationship since their engagement was called off pre-New 52.  They have been stuck in the will they/won't they holding pattern ever since that we always bring up. Even in Taylor's current Nightwing run Dick and Babs weren't together as Dick was sleeping on the couch while Babs was staying at his apartment. So Dick has been together with Helena and Shawn in more official relationships a lot more recent than Babs.


I think part of the issue here might be how time works in general. For us it looks like 15 years, but in their lives? It is probably like 1 year.




> Yeah, Dick's plan needs to be fleshed out much, much more (which hopefully happens in future issues).  I'm at least encouraged that he specifically used the words "self-sustaining" in his speech and hopefully Taylor won't just leave it at that; he needs to explain how Dick's charity will continue to bring in money beyond Dick's initial donation of a billion dollars, which simply isn't enough to end Bludhaven's poverty and fund all the things Dick talked about.
> 
> Let me add that I don't need Dick's plan to be realistic to the real world.  I'd be perfectly satisfied with semi-realism / comic book logic as long as an attempt at an explanation is given.  So, for example, if Dick starts hitting Blockbuster's drug houses and instead of tying up the bad guys and leaving them and the money for the police to take care of, Dick steals the drug money and feeds it into his foundation, okay, that's at least an explanation.  (Dick's speech hinted at being skeptical of police enforcement.)


Yeah, I don't need an actual detailed plan either, but I need something more beyond banal buzzwords.

----------


## Rac7d*

One of the problems is when different writers in a shared universe want to do their own thing. Eyes will be on Tim Sheridan as he will now have to waste the few panels Starfire may get in the next couple of issues to clear this up becuase they wanted a sick kory cover to up the sales of an issue.

----------


## hairys

> Yeah, I don't need an actual detailed plan either, but I need something more beyond banal buzzwords.


Yup, although I *could* go for some detail (what I'm excusing is semi-realism).  I'd like to see a datapage every issue like how the X-books do it.  A lot needs to be explained, and lot of additional funding has to be found.  For example, my drug money idea from above could represent maybe 1-2% of what Dick needs to do all the things he mentioned.  (And it wouldn't be self-sustaining either since you eventually run out of drug houses to bust).

----------


## Rac7d*

> Yup, although I *could* go for some detail (what I'm excusing is semi-realism).  I'd like to see a datapage every issue like how the X-books do it.  A lot needs to be explained, and lot of additional funding has to be found.  For example, my drug money idea from above could represent maybe 1-2% of what Dick needs to do all the things he mentioned.  (And it wouldn't be self-sustaining either since you eventually run out of drug houses to bust).


You never run out of drug houses to bust in his hometown!!!

----------


## Digifiend

> Seeley kinda ended his run putting most thing he setted up to the ground. He killed Raptor (Which for some reason now is alive and part of the Robin book), he ended Dicks relationship with Shawn, he started and ended pretty quickly his relationship with Helena. Oh, and he killed Minos.


Raptor's resurrection can be explained by the ending of Death Metal.

----------


## Iclifton

Has there been any word on Nightwing Parabola? Is this book still happening?

----------


## Restingvoice

> I'm sure that in progressive and liberal circles "sex with an ex as a birthday present" happens and is considered ok, but I can't wrap my head around it. To me it sounds even worse than Dick not being able to decide whom he wants to date.
> 
> I think part of the issue here might be how time works in general. For us it looks like 15 years, but in their lives? It is probably like 1 year.


That reminds me. In Young Justice cartoon comic adaptation, it was Babs who gave Dick birthday sex. She didn't want to be in a relationship with him yet since he needs to be more mature for her, but just having fun for one night is fine. 

In Kori's case, on Tamaran's culture, she's always open about love, expressing love with any type of action appropriate depending on the person but always with consent and it's always about love. She doesn't just have sex with anyone. Which is why the early New 52 version was derided by comic fans too, because she had sex with Roy without love having anything to do with it. 

---

About 5 years, since Damian appeared for the first time after One Year Later.

----------


## Drako

> Raptor's resurrection can be explained by the ending of Death Metal.


I mean you can use that excuse, but seems very arbitrary if only Raptor resurrected. Not that i'm complaining that he is alive, i just wished he was in the Nightwing book and not in the Robin one.




> Has there been any word on Nightwing Parabola? Is this book still happening?


Nothing new, hopefully is still happening.

----------


## Iclifton

> I mean you can use that excuse, but seems very arbitrary if only Raptor resurrected. Not that i'm complaining that he is alive, i just wished he was in the Nightwing book and not in the Robin one.
> 
> 
> 
> Nothing new, hopefully is still happening.


Honestly would love to see Raptor in the current book. Feel like he would offer a pretty good perspective on the Alfred Pennyworth Foundation.

----------


## Robanker

Just caught up. Went back to 78 to refresh my memory and read the entire arc since I have been behind. This is the best Nightwing book since early Dixon's run, and Redondo has become my favorite artist for Dick.

His art is so dynamic and fluid, and the colors pop as well. Everyone on this book is killing it. Absolutely worth every bit of hype.

----------


## Majesty

> Overall I think maybe we shouldn't even give her any of the Batboys but someone from Tamara that way it stays in her area. Dc had their change from having him with Starfire before they wanted the marriage to stop or Babs but they made her think he is cheating. Also Babs has slut shamed Bruce with Poison Ivy raped him. So Dc really wants Babs overall a judgy person. Overall Dc had a long time to make Babs cannon but they never really did. The same with Kori. They want both. Dc just wants both ships even if it makes Babs or Kori look bad
> 
> If anything Dc would be smart and have one couple simply be elsewhere stories . Dc could have allowed Perez and Wolfman to do their miniseries.They can't keep going on with the love triangle. it's been thirty years they had a long time to make Babs more of a stable relationship but all it ever is she fickle or judgy and breaks up with him
> 
> Overall with the Titan show. I wonder what will happen with the two they said the DickKori fans will be happy.They have big plans for them


That's because everywhere outside of comics, Dick/Kory is the OTP and Barbara is considered(if they are/were dating) puppy love in comparison. 

Only in the comics do they keep rehashing it over and over and over again.  But in media outside of the comics, they remained consistent with Dick/Kory and stayed that way.   Too bad the comics refuse to commit in such a way because "they need dat drama!!!"




> I'm curious. What if we were to take a break from DickKori or Dickbabs for a bit. Anyone up for Hunters or at least Shawn being with Nightwing for a while? I just feel like maybe Dick being with a different woman or single for a while would be good after this reboot or when they break them up.


They had their chance to do that with Shawn. But essentially did what they always did with Babs or Dick's relationships when it's a good thing or the beginnings of a good thing.  They rush to end it, so they can throw some more drama into play.   

I dare DC Comics to put Babs and Dick into actual long term committed relationships with people that aren't each other.   But DC loves that drama and their "OTPs" its why they stop/start/reset/circle BatCat all the darn time. 

If Babs was still with Luke and Dick was still with Shawn and it showed no hints at slowing down anytime soon, I'd have been impressed.  But DC does what they always do, when faced with the ability to build upon a new relationship, they stop it early and then throw them back into the same circle of drama with one another in some way/shape/form.   Constantly going back to a relationship that was frequently toxic, and sabotaging actual supportive relationships in order to do it, ain't the best message.

----------


## Valentonis

> Honestly would love to see Raptor in the current book. Feel like he would offer a pretty good perspective on the Alfred Pennyworth Foundation.


Absolutely. Part of why this direction for Dick works so well in my opinion is because it feels like a natural evolution of the questions that Raptor raised in regards to wealth and privilege at the beginning of Rebirth. It makes too much sense for him to appear again.

----------


## Drako

https://twitter.com/TomTaylorMade/st...74508843773952






> Hey! Thanks for your enquiry. I plan to write #Nightwing for a very long time.


Looks like he is not leaving the book anytime soon.

----------


## Majesty

> https://twitter.com/TomTaylorMade/st...74508843773952
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Looks like he is not leaving the book anytime soon.


That depends. If it doesn't sell, he won't have a choice tbh.

----------


## Drako

> That depends. If it doesn't sell, he won't have a choice tbh.


But it is selling well.

----------


## Majesty

> But it is selling well.


That's the point. As long as it sells well and doesn't tamper off(after the first issue) then he'll be able to keep writing it. 

First issue seems to be going well. Although that Titans Academy kiss seems to be a point of contention that I can only assume DC is either going to do some 'fast retconning' to make whatever the case is more obvious.. or leave it open to debate if they want to dig into drama some more. 

Either way, as long as Nightwing sells well, he'll be able to keep writing it.

Back in June it was 12th in Sales which is pretty good considering.

----------


## Godlike13

> That depends. If it doesn't sell, he won't have a choice tbh.


Eeh, Jurgans sold like crap and they left him on for quite a while.

----------


## Drako

> That's the point. As long as it sells well and doesn't tamper off(after the first issue) then he'll be able to keep writing it. 
> 
> First issue seems to be going well. Although that Titans Academy kiss seems to be a point of contention that I can only assume DC is either going to do some 'fast retconning' to make whatever the case is more obvious.. or leave it open to debate if they want to dig into drama some more. 
> 
> Either way, as long as Nightwing sells well, he'll be able to keep writing it.
> 
> Back in June it was 12th in Sales which is pretty good considering.


The first four issues sold out (#78 sold out three times).
And we don't have the numbers of the digital sales, so it might have a better total number of issues sold.

This week issue is second place in the bestsellers on comixlogy:



It's selling really well.

----------


## Twice-named

> I'm sure that in progressive and liberal circles "sex with an ex as a birthday present" happens and is considered ok


Hahaha. As if conservatives are paragons of sexual morality.

----------


## Rac7d*

> But it is selling well.


Exactly 
Also its not like Nightwing would be cancelled 
Also remember redhood never sold well and they let the same problematic writer stay on for a decade
As long as he wants to be on I think we will keep taylor

----------


## Drako

> Exactly 
> Also it’s not like Nightwing would be cancelled 
> Also remember redhood never sold well and they let the same problematic writer stay on for a decade
> As long as he wants to be on I think we will keep taylor


I believe the Red hood case was more of the editorial protecting the writer than anything, he had friends in the higher up.

But yeah, Tom Taylor, like him or not, is a premier name in the industry right now. He'll probably stay as long as he wants.

----------


## Iclifton

> https://twitter.com/TomTaylorMade/st...74508843773952
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Looks like he is not leaving the book anytime soon.


Great news! Kind of rude thing to tweet at Taylor.

----------


## JackJustMetMartin

> Great news! Kind of rude thing to tweet at Taylor.


The stuff people tweet at Tom is ridiculous. People are insanely rude to the man and are surprised when he blocks them

----------


## Iclifton

> The stuff people tweet at Tom is ridiculous. People are insanely rude to the man and are surprised when he blocks them


I`ve seen some of the Barbara fans go after him specifically because she is no longer Oracle, which is odd since he has nothing to do with that.

----------


## Hizashi

Did anyone else think the speech was heavy handed? Really took me out.

----------


## Robanker

> Did anyone else think the speech was heavy handed? Really took me out.


Not even a little bit.

----------


## HsssH

> Hahaha. As if conservatives are paragons of sexual morality.


Yes, they are ugly in their own special way.

----------


## Rac7d*

> I`ve seen some of the Barbara fans go after him specifically because she is no longer Oracle, which is odd since he has nothing to do with that.


Their not Barbra fans 
They all have starfire icons, and get upset everytime they see her in the book and pretend it’s becuase she not in a wheelchair. She been standing for the last ten years. It’s all ridiculous

----------


## Hizashi

> Not even a little bit.


It's just that it's what always happens in those situations: I could hear Taylor's voice drowning out Dick's. I don't even necessarily think that Dick wouldn't do this, but that was not a good way of doing it. It was like a checklist from a politician.

----------


## Rac7d*

> It's just that it's what always happens in those situations: I could hear Taylor's voice drowning out Dick's. I don't even necessarily think that Dick wouldn't do this, but that was not a good way of doing it. It was like a checklist from a politician.


But that just it he’s not a politician, he has no gain from this but to help others.

----------


## Drako

So, i was listening to this podcast with Bruno Redondo and the host ask what was his favorite nightwing costume.

He said that his favorite one was the classic one from the Dixon era and he finds the Disco Wing suit funny, but can't make it work for today's style.

But what took me by surprise was that he said, very casualy, that we will have new costume is coming soon.

He is using what he loves from the previous ones into his new one, so he said doesn't want to hype up cause isn't really exacly a NEW one.

21:29 minute mark.

----------


## Pohzee

Perfect. I love subtle redesigns. Hate things that you know are going to age poorly like the Murphy Batgirl suit or the Mortal Kombat Red Hood suit. Dates all the stories that they are in. Keep it classic, but mix it up some.

Fully expecting it to be the costume from the character sketches earlier. Same logo, arm strips, boxing wraps, nix the boot swishes.

----------


## Iclifton

> Perfect. I love subtle redesigns. Hate things that you know are going to age poorly like the Murphy Batgirl suit or the Mortal Kombat Red Hood suit. Dates all the stories that they are in. Keep it classic, but mix it up some.
> 
> Fully expecting it to be the costume from the character sketches earlier. Same logo, arm strips, boxing wraps, nix the boot swishes.


Hoping that's the case. I really like the boxing wraps and miss the arm stripes.

----------


## Drako

Bruno said he really likes the fingers stripes, so i'm sure that's coming back. I don't mind the blue stripes around the legs, i think it helps to make his costume not only black from the waist down.

but this things gotta go:



I hated every since i saw Javi's design and still hate to this day.

----------


## Pohzee

The all black below the symbol isn't proportionate in a superheroic way. But that makes it somewhat sleeker and unique. Dick should be a little bit sleeker than the average alpha-type superhero.

----------


## Rac7d*

I hope it’s not until the end of the next arc

----------


## Frontier

> Perfect. I love subtle redesigns. Hate things that you know are going to age poorly like the Murphy Batgirl suit or the Mortal Kombat Red Hood suit. Dates all the stories that they are in. Keep it classic, but mix it up some.
> 
> Fully expecting it to be the costume from the character sketches earlier. Same logo, arm strips, boxing wraps, nix the boot swishes.


I don't know if the Murphy Batgirl suit will age poorly...well, okay, people made fun of the domino mask a lot...and the backpack...never mind  :Stick Out Tongue: .

----------


## Murrocko

Finger stripes and a utility of some sort (like in Young Justice and the DCAU movies) is all I ask for

----------


## Restingvoice

Back to the Dick Kori Babs timeline a bit, I forgot that Suicide Squad who crossovers with Teen Titans Academy started during A-Day, which was a month or two before the current Batman series, which will lead to Fear State event that Nightwing is also involved. 

So Teen Titans Academy _is_ supposed to be set a month or two earlier than Nightwing and Batman. The details are of course just all over the place because Academy, Batman and Detective all referencing Dick in Bludhaven like in real publication time .

----------


## Rac7d*

> Back to the Dick Kori Babs timeline a bit, I forgot that Suicide Squad who crossovers with Teen Titans Academy started during A-Day, which was a month or two before the current Batman series, which will lead to Fear State event that Nightwing is also involved. 
> 
> So Teen Titans Academy _is_ supposed to be set a month or two earlier than Nightwing and Batman. The details are of course just all over the place because Academy, Batman and Detective all referencing Dick in Bludhaven like in real publication time .


 I feel like Nightwing could be removed from academy soon. If Roy returns definitely

----------


## Godlike13

> I feel like Nightwing could be removed from academy soon. If Roy returns definitely


Cause that’s equivalent?

----------


## Daedalus

> Cause that’s equivalent?


I don't think it's equivalent in any way, though I naturally can't speak for Rac7d* and his comment.

That being said, it is common for the first issues of a new title to feature super-popular character, only for that popular character to go back to his main book after the first arc or two. So I don't think it's impossible.

----------


## Grayson - The Dark Heir

It makes very little sense for Dick to not be in TTA when so much of the book revolves around him. It's actually something of an issue, that Dick just by virtue of being Dick and therefore relevant to so many of the younger students, that the other Titans have to somewhat compete for screen time.

----------


## Restingvoice

At the very least they need to wrap up the Red X plot before that

----------


## WonderNight

> I feel like Nightwing could be removed from academy soon. If Roy returns definitely


Why do you feel that way? I wouldn't mind though. Dick needs to be on a real team! Not just background teacher.

----------


## Godlike13

I don’t like TTA very much, and the teacher role is demeaning and makes them old, but as we saw with Titans. They can’t just pull him from a Titans book as he’s the franchise’s most marketable character. Dick substantiates the whole Academy. Roy on the other hand. Naming the school after Roy was silly, him teaching anyone is even more silly. Should Red Hood jump in as sub next. Roy is a walking example of what not to do.

----------


## WonderNight

> I dont like TTA very much, and the teacher role is demeaning and makes them old, but as we saw with Titans. They cant just pull him from a Titans book as hes the franchises most marketable character. Dick substantiates the whole Academy. Roy on the other hand. Naming the school after Roy was silly, him teaching anyone is even more silly. Should Red Hood jump in as sub next. Roy is a walking example of what not to do.


Yeah the titans must be the oldest 20s somethings on the planet lol. DC needs a reboot the titans (the team not the characters) a New New teen titans if you will.

Keep the academy for the older titans that DC doesn't know what to do with like Donna, best boy and starfire etc. It'll be there in universe "limbo" when there not being used. 

Have both Dick and Wally creat a new 5 or 6 person team with new members that are currently relevant/needs a comeback.

But Titans is ruled by nostalgia big time.

----------


## Rac7d*

> I don’t like TTA very much, and the teacher role is demeaning and makes them old, but as we saw with Titans. They can’t just pull him from a Titans book as he’s the franchise’s most marketable character. Dick substantiates the whole Academy. Roy on the other hand. Naming the school after Roy was silly, him teaching anyone is even more silly. Should Red Hood jump in as sub next. Roy is a walking example of what not to do.


Being a teacher is not demeaning. 30 is not old? Dick has been pulled from the titans book before multiple times. It’s not a big deal, he’s not appearing that frequently, it might make the red X matters more interesting if one of them beest detectives isn’t their. He can wire checks.  Roy was a hero and their friend why wouldn’t they name it after him.

----------


## Rac7d*

> It makes very little sense for Dick to not be in TTA when so much of the book revolves around him. It's actually something of an issue, that Dick just by virtue of being Dick and therefore relevant to so many of the younger students, that the other Titans have to somewhat compete for screen time.





> Why do you feel that way? I wouldn't mind though. Dick needs to be on a real team! Not just background teacher.


It doesnt revolve around him. Titans academy is about the students and it thats good. Im actually developing some intrest in some of them.  The titans are not competing for screentime they have had decades of it. This pretty much the New Class type book.  Dick is already part of team called the bat family, who I feel tend to feel  to be more important then the justice league. More so I belive his new foundation will require slot of his attention and he wont be able to split focus.  This has happen in New teen titans, 2003 teen Titans and rebirth titans.  He can return whenever, and as of right now he doesnt seem to be directly mentoring anybody the students, the batpack issue made that clear.

----------


## WonderNight

> It doesn’t revolve around him. Titans academy is about the students and it that’s good. I’m actually developing some intrest in some of them.  The titans are not competing for screentime they have had decades of it. This pretty much the “New Class” type book.  Dick is already part of team called the bat family, who I feel tend to feel  to be more important then the justice league. More so I belive his new foundation will require slot of his attention and he won’t be able to split focus.  This has happen in New teen titans, 2003 teen Titans and rebirth titans.  He can return whenever, and as of right now he doesn’t seem to be directly mentoring anybody the students, the batpack issue made that clear.


Dick was always go to be a background character in TTA, i mean name gave it away. Can believe people are shocked.

The batfamily is dicks team book? Lmao just put him back in the robin costume and be done with it lol!

----------


## Godlike13

> Being a teacher is not demeaning. 30 is not old? Dick has been pulled from the titans book before multiple times. It’s not a big deal, he’s not appearing that frequently, it might make the red X matters more interesting if one of them beest detectives isn’t their. He can wire checks.  Roy was a hero and their friend why wouldn’t they name it after him.


It highlights them as no longer the next generation but the trainers of the next generation. They are heroes in their prime. 30 isn’t old, but it comes off like that when the act like they are 40 and are surrounded by teenagers who call them old. And again, as with the last Titans series pulling Dick is a big deal. Especially when his history is the linchpin for their entire marketing direction. Red X is his former persona coming back. Take him out and they take out the entire connection to the identity. Lastly Roy was a screw up and a failure. To name the Academy after him out of pity makes the Academy look laughable. For the last decade Roy was getting drunk and Outlawing it with Red Hood as the lovable screwup. Is that the kind of accomplishments a school is really looking to promote.

----------


## Badou

The last time Dick and Roy interacted was Roy punching Dick in the face and beating him up while Dick then had to apologize for being in the wrong and an awful leader in Abnett's Titans run while Roy was right about everything. Every time Dick and Roy interact Dick gets written pretty horribly. Even when they aren't in the same book together you have stuff like Lobdell's Outlaws run where Roy was insulting Dick and blaming him for things. Which of course was done to lessen Dick's character to build up Roy being closer with Jason and Starfire. In my opinion the less Dick interacts with Roy the better because it never ends well.

----------


## Rac7d*

> It makes very little sense for Dick to not be in TTA when so much of the book revolves around him. It's actually something of an issue, that Dick just by virtue of being Dick and therefore relevant to so many of the younger students, that the other Titans have to somewhat compete for screen time.





> Why do you feel that way? I wouldn't mind though. Dick needs to be on a real team! Not just background teacher.





> Dick was always go to be a background character in TTA, i mean name gave it away. Can believe people are shocked.
> 
> The batfamily is dicks team book? Lmao just put him back in the robin costume and be done with it lol!


 With the transition to
Jace happening soon, yes it kind of is his tea, as future state presented when Bruce takes off he is defacto leader.

----------


## WonderNight

Do you guys really feel the batfamily is dick's team? Nightwing being 100% bat! Is that what you guys want? I thought dick becomimg nightwing was him looking for independence from the bat, from gotham. I look nightwing as independent DCU first and bat secondary but I guess that just me.

----------


## Rac7d*

> Do you guys really feel the batfamily is dick's team? Nightwing being 100% bat! Is that what you guys want? I thought dick becomimg nightwing was him looking for independence from the bat, from gotham. I look nightwing as independent DCU first and bat secondary but I guess that just me.


He is more consistently dependent and kind then Bruce and is very much a role model for Tim Steph Cass Damian Duke
There is not much going on in the DCU, Batfamily has been and continues to be the main event of DC. 

Why do you guy equate being independent to running away from. Dude is 29, he knows who he is, and he has his independence.that doesn’t mean he is not gonna be their for his family. Dick is not 19 anymore trying to prove himself, we’re past that.

last time dick saw Roy was his boys night with Damian and it was fun. Yes their are inconsistencies becuase timeline wise their is no time for Jason and Roy to ever meet and be friends. Especially since he was and original titans, then again I don’t really care for lobdells work.

----------


## Badou

> Do you guys really feel the batfamily is dick's team? Nightwing being 100% bat! Is that what you guys want? I thought dick becomimg nightwing was him looking for independence from the bat, from gotham. I look nightwing as independent DCU first and bat secondary but I guess that just me.


If I have to pick between the Batman family or the Titans then I'll pick the Batman family every time. The Titans have lead to zero good stories for Dick in 30 years despite him being the "face" of the Titans. That is basically what it comes down to for me.

----------


## WonderNight

> If I have to pick between the Batman family or the Titans then I'll pick the Batman family every time. The Titans have lead to zero good stories for Dick in 30 years despite him being the "face" of the Titans. That is basically what it comes down to for me.


But does it have it be titans is there nothing else for him as character outside of the batbook?

----------


## WonderNight

> He is more consistently dependent and kind then Bruce and is very much a role model for Tim Steph Cass Damian Duke
> There is not much going on in the DCU, Batfamily has been and continues to be the main event of DC. 
> 
> Why do you guy equate being independent to running away from. Dude is 29, he knows who he is, and he has his independence.that doesn’t mean he is not gonna be their for his family. Dick is not 19 anymore trying to prove himself, we’re past that.
> 
> last time dick saw Roy was his boys night with Damian and it was fun. Yes their are inconsistencies becuase timeline wise their is no time for Jason and Roy to ever meet and be friends. Especially since he was and original titans, then again I don’t really care for lobdells work.


independence mean space and having your own. Right he's in his late 20s, time leave you own mark on the world and start you own family. Not be the oldest kid in daddy's house, Sad. By the way, what's the point of dick being in bludhaven and not gotham then?

----------


## Drako

> I feel like Nightwing could be removed from academy soon. If Roy returns definitely


This doesn't make any sense.
Not only they were in the same team at the same time before, Dick is a big part of the "mystery of Red X".

----------


## Rac7d*

> This doesn't make any sense.
> Not only they were in the same team at the same time before, Dick is a big part of the "mystery of Red X".


Dick barely appears as is. It may help the mystery if their best detective is away.

----------


## Rac7d*

> independence mean space and having your own. Right he's in his late 20s, time leave you own mark on the world and start you own family. Not be the oldest kid in daddy's house, Sad. By the way, what's the point of dick being in bludhaven and not gotham then?


 He already has his own, he’s not allowed to pursue anymore becuase of Bruce but that may change soon

----------


## Daedalus

> Do you guys really feel the batfamily is dick's team? Nightwing being 100% bat! Is that what you guys want? I thought dick becomimg nightwing was him looking for independence from the bat, from gotham. I look nightwing as independent DCU first and bat secondary but I guess that just me.


The batfamily is dick's primary team, because the bat-corner of the DC Universe is where he spends 90% of his time. This is also the case with Batman, who is on the Justice League, but whose main team will always be the batfamily (evidently).

Dick's "I need space! I'm gonna live with my friends in a T-shaped Tower away from dad" was charming when he was 18. He's now more mature, and that wouldn't fit. Theres a big difference between independence and rebelliousness.




> By the way, what's the point of dick being in bludhaven and not gotham then?


If I'm not mistaken, Bludhaven is literally across the river from Gotham. He can visit Bruce in 30min. In real-world comparisons, its like Jersey City and New York.

Story-wise, it allows Dick to have a space to care for himself while also being actively involved with Bruce, Barbara, Tim, and the rest of the family. This is very common in comics: for example, Daredevil and Hells Kitchen - he has that area to look after, and then he can meet up with Spider-Man or the Defenders at any time the story calls for it.

----------


## Badou

> But does it have it be titans is there nothing else for him as character outside of the batbook?


Unfortunately I don't think there is. Outside of his time as Batman he's pretty much just revolved around the Titans when he is used outside the Batbooks.

----------


## Digifiend

> I mean you can use that excuse, but seems very arbitrary if only Raptor resurrected. Not that i'm complaining that he is alive, i just wished he was in the Nightwing book and not in the Robin one.


Death Metal's epilogue mentioned that a lot of people had been resurrected. Roy and Lian Harper are two more examples. The continuity changes at the end of it are a catch-all explanation for people being back without us being shown how.




> I feel like Nightwing could be removed from academy soon. If Roy returns definitely


That's not likely. Based on the cover for November, both Roy Harper and Wally West will join up, but nobody's leaving unless the Academy closes.




> If I'm not mistaken, Bludhaven is literally across the river from Gotham. He can visit Bruce in 30min. In real-world comparisons, it’s like Jersey City and New York.
> 
> Story-wise, it allows Dick to have a space to care for himself while also being actively involved with Bruce, Barbara, Tim, and the rest of the family. This is very common in comics: for example, Daredevil and Hell’s Kitchen - he has that area to look after, and then he can meet up with Spider-Man or the Defenders at any time the story calls for it.


Yeah, in Marvel, Ms. Marvel Kamala Khan and the Wasp are both from New Jersey. They do stuff in New York all the time.

----------


## Daedalus

> Death Metal's epilogue mentioned that a lot of people had been resurrected. Roy and Lian Harper are two more examples. The continuity changes at the end of it are a catch-all explanation for people being back without us being shown how.


Haven't yet read Death Metal (doesn't look like my sort of thing), but I do love it when DC just handwaves "and everyone was resurrected" at the end of an event. Shows hilarious levels of self-awareness.

I honestly prefer that than having multiple "it was a clone! it was a robot! it was a fakeout! it was a multidimensional rift!" storylines. Just do it all at once and be done with it. I guess that on the batcorner of DC you could use a Lazarus Pit to have brought back Raptor instead.

----------


## L.H.

Great moment between Dick and Damian in Robin #5, out today. 
I still miss them together.

----------


## Rac7d*

> Great moment between Dick and Damian in Robin #5, out today. 
> I still miss them together.


I think he should make Bludhaven his homebase, not to far from Gotham 
But also space from Bruce

----------


## Drako

> Great moment between Dick and Damian in Robin #5, out today. 
> I still miss them together.


It was great, really! They are my Dynamic Duo and i miss them together too.

----------


## Drako

> I think he should make Bludhaven his homebase, not to far from Gotham 
> But also space from Bruce


I would be down for that! Bring him to Bludhaven with the Batgirls.
Gotham can have Harley and the Tynion OCs.

----------


## Rac7d*

> It was great, really! They are my Dynamic Duo and i miss them together too.


That ‘you were my robins first “ touched my heart

----------


## L.H.

> I would be down for that! Bring him to Bludhaven with the Batgirls.
> Gotham can have Harley and the Tynion OCs.


Ok, this will be perfect!

----------


## Restingvoice

Gleb posted this as a teaser for people to buy Robin so I'm not counting it as a spoiler anymore

----------


## Drako

> Gleb posted this as a teaser for people to buy Robin so I'm not counting it as a spoiler anymore


The only bad part of the art is that Dick is skinny asf in this.

----------


## Blue22

> Great moment between Dick and Damian in Robin #5, out today. 
> I still miss them together.


Same. I really wish we got more of them still working together after Bruce came back. I remember in the Rebirth run, Dick said that he thought about taking Damian with him after Bruce's return. And, as much as I love Tomasi's Batman and Robin run....I also kinda wish that had happened.

----------


## Rac7d*

> The only bad part of the art is that Dick is skinny asf in this.


He’s anime sharp

----------


## L.H.

> Same. I really wish we got more of them still working together after Bruce came back. I remember in the Rebirth run, Dick said that he thought about taking Damian with him after Bruce's return. And, as much as I love Tomasi's Batman and Robin run....I also kinda wish that had happened.


Finger crossed 🤞

----------


## Rac7d*

> Finger crossed


Now that Bruce is broke and Alfred is gone he may better off with Dick until he’s 17

----------


## Restingvoice

> Now that Bruce is broke and Alfred is gone he may better off with Dick until he’s 17


Bruce doesn't live in the sewers XD

Well okay yeah he kinda does, but Dick hasn't installed air conditioning

But Bruce seem to gonna be disappearing once Fear State ends anyway so let's move them all to the apartment

----------


## Rac7d*

> Bruce doesn't live in the sewers XD
> 
> Well okay yeah he kinda does, but Dick hasn't installed air conditioning
> 
> But Bruce seem to gonna be disappearing once Fear State ends anyway so let's move them all to the apartment


Dick owns the complex

----------


## Frontier

> Same. I really wish we got more of them still working together after Bruce came back. I remember in the Rebirth run, Dick said that he thought about taking Damian with him after Bruce's return. And, as much as I love Tomasi's Batman and Robin run....I also kinda wish that had happened.


I wouldn't trade Bruce and Damian's time as Batman and Robin for anything, but Dick and Damian truly were the best team.

----------


## Micael

In a world where Bruce is allowed to retire Dick and Damian would continue his mission as Batman and Robin and revolutionize the game.

----------


## Hizashi

> But that just it hes not a politician, he has no gain from this but to help others.


Sure, Dick doesn't, that's not what I'm saying though. This just screamed to me as the single reason for making Dick into a billionaire, so that Taylor could talk to us directly like this. It wasn't organic.

----------


## Daedalus

> Sure, Dick doesn't, that's not what I'm saying though. This just screamed to me as the single reason for making Dick into a billionaire, so that Taylor could talk to us directly like this. It wasn't organic.


Of course, your mileage varies on what feels organic or not. But it's less about what Dick said in the speech than what he's doing - he's helping people as Nightwing, fighting crime, but also as Dick Grayson, by being a good person. This lines up with the tribute to Alfred, who was a hero in his everyday persona. It's not exactly subtle, but it's meant to embody the hopefulness and uplifting aspect of Dick as a character. I don't think Taylor is preaching from the pulpit or intends to do so via the comic.

----------


## Vordan

> Gleb posted this as a teaser for people to buy Robin so I'm not counting it as a spoiler anymore


Yeah any reference to Morrison B&R always gives me warm feelings. God if they can remember that why cant they let Dick keep Mr. Toad and Pyg as Rogues?

----------


## Drako

> Now that Bruce is broke and Alfred is gone he may better off with Dick until he’s 17


lol being a millionaire is very different than being broke

----------


## Frontier

Apparently they were planning to make Katana Nightwing in season 2 of _Beware the Batman_.

Kind of glad that didn't happen.

----------


## Drako

> Apparently they were planning to make Katana Nightwing in season 2 of _Beware the Batman_.
> 
> Kind of glad that didn't happen.


Katana Nightwing, Roy Harper Robin?
Nah, i'm good.

----------


## Iclifton

Look like Taylor is not going over to the main Bat title. Glad we get to keep him for longer!

Williamson wrote a great Grayson this week. He also seems inspired by Morrison's work on the title. Hopefully we get some Nightwing guest appearances.

----------


## Frontier

> Katana Nightwing, Roy Harper Robin?
> Nah, i'm good.


And Babs becomes Carrie Kelley Robin.

It's really kind of random.

----------


## Digifiend

> Katana Nightwing, Roy Harper Robin?
> Nah, i'm good.


Roy's R stands for Red Arrow.

----------


## Frontier

> Roy's R stands for Red Arrow.


It looks like a Robin R though.

----------


## Drako

> It looks like a Robin R though.


It's clearly taken from the Robin motif

----------


## Claude

> Look like Taylor is not going over to the main Bat title. Glad we get to keep him for longer!
> 
> Williamson wrote a great Grayson this week. He also seems inspired by Morrison's work on the title. Hopefully we get some Nightwing guest appearances.


Yeah, Williamson seems to play well with others - and made a point of saying that the existing plans for the other Bat Titles would be honoured - so I think we're looking a minimal disruption, which is nice! And, speaking only for myself, probably a much improved "Batman" title into the bargain.

----------


## BloodOps

> Apparently they were planning to make Katana Nightwing in season 2 of _Beware the Batman_.
> 
> Kind of glad that didn't happen.


Ew what type of roster is that.

----------


## Digifiend

Yeah, it's as much Titans as it is Bat family. What the heck is Cyborg doing there?

----------


## Rac7d*

> Katana Nightwing, Roy Harper Robin?
> Nah, i'm good.


Thank god that didnt happen

----------


## OBrianTallent

> Yeah any reference to Morrison B&R always gives me warm feelings. God if they can remember that why cant they let Dick keep Mr. Toad and Pyg as Rogues?


And Flamingo, would love to see him back again as well....

----------


## Drako

> And Flamingo, would love to see him back again as well....


Flamingo did appear in Ben Percy's run in that Wacky race he did.

----------


## GamerSlyRatchet

> Apparently they were planning to make Katana Nightwing in season 2 of _Beware the Batman_.
> 
> Kind of glad that didn't happen.


I'm not thrilled with all of the choices there (why Cyborg?), but I don't like judging ideas without execution or context either. Especially since it doesn't necessarily mean Dick wouldn't exist in the show's universe. 

I'm really curious about Red Arrow/Red Robin/Red Hood, though.

----------


## OBrianTallent

> Flamingo did appear in Ben Percy's run in that Wacky race he did.


which was fun...but there needs to be more.

----------


## SiegePerilous02

> Yeah any reference to Morrison B&R always gives me warm feelings. God if they can remember that why can’t they let Dick keep Mr. Toad and Pyg as Rogues?





> And Flamingo, would love to see him back again as well....


A lot of the villains Morrison introduced should be Dick's villains. Seeley picked up on this and had Dick go up against Pyg and Dr. Hurt. Since Pyg and Flamingo debuted in the bad future issue of Damian's Batman, I think all the villains from there should show up in the present to be Dick's villains: Max Roboto, Jackanapes, the Weasel, Loveless, Candyman, the Sphinx, etc. Add Raptor, Deathwing, Dr. Levictus and the Fist of Cain (would LOVE to see Nightwing run a gauntlet of these psychos in a movie) and Nightwing would have a pretty cool looking rogues gallery instead of the duds from the Bludhaven days.

----------


## John Venus

> Apparently they were planning to make Katana Nightwing in season 2 of _Beware the Batman_.
> 
> Kind of glad that didn't happen.





> Roy's R stands for Red Arrow.


I saw that but somehow glossed over the Red Robin Arrow.  I was mainly distracted by Katana as Nightwing and Cyborg.  

lol. Bruce doesn't have enough side kicks. He's gotta start poaching the bajillionare's side kick as well.  lol  




> Thank god that didnt happen


As Murakami said, this was just an idea he pitched and he doubted that DC would have allowed it anyway but in animation 'you have to swing for the fences'.    




> I'm not thrilled with all of the choices there (why Cyborg?), but I don't like judging ideas without execution or context either. Especially since it doesn't necessarily mean Dick wouldn't exist in the show's universe. 
> 
> I'm really curious about Red Arrow/Red Robin/Red Hood, though.


I can't think of any reason beyond Murakami also having worked on the Titans show.  




> A lot of the villains Morrison introduced should be Dick's villains. Seeley picked up on this and had Dick go up against Pyg and Dr. Hurt. Since Pyg and Flamingo debuted in the bad future issue of Damian's Batman, I think all the villains from there should show up in the present to be Dick's villains: Max Roboto, Jackanapes, the Weasel, Loveless, Candyman, the Sphinx, etc. Add Raptor, Deathwing, Dr. Levictus and the Fist of Cain (would LOVE to see Nightwing run a gauntlet of these psychos in a movie) and Nightwing would have a pretty cool looking rogues gallery instead of the duds from the Bludhaven days.



I second this idea.

----------


## Daedalus

> Apparently they were planning to make Katana Nightwing in season 2 of _Beware the Batman_.
> 
> Kind of glad that didn't happen.


I didn't like Beware the Batman, and I'm glad this didn't happen. Such a bizarre roster - as others have said, with so many characters in the Batfamily, why would you go this route? That whole show was puzzling.

That being said, I do encounter some people from time to time who enjoyed it, so perhaps they would have liked this too.




> A lot of the villains Morrison introduced should be Dick's villains. Seeley picked up on this and had Dick go up against Pyg and Dr. Hurt. Since Pyg and Flamingo debuted in the bad future issue of Damian's Batman, I think all the villains from there should show up in the present to be Dick's villains: Max Roboto, Jackanapes, the Weasel, Loveless, Candyman, the Sphinx, etc. Add Raptor, Deathwing, Dr. Levictus and the Fist of Cain (would LOVE to see Nightwing run a gauntlet of these psychos in a movie) and Nightwing would have a pretty cool looking rogues gallery instead of the duds from the Bludhaven days.


I don't think Dick needs a firmly established rogues gallery divorced from Batman's. Sure, I'd be happy to read about him taking on any of the above, but I'm also content with him taking on Two-Face, or the Penguin, or any of the Batfamily's rogues gallery. He has adversaries in Blockbuster et al, but he's a member of a larger corner of the DC-verse.

This reflects how I feel about Superman's rogues gallery also being shared among his extensive family. It just seems silly to limit choices just in order to create some sense of separation between characters that are very closely tied together.

----------


## SiegePerilous02

> I don't think Dick needs a firmly established rogues gallery divorced from Batman's. Sure, I'd be happy to read about him taking on any of the above, but I'm also content with him taking on Two-Face, or the Penguin, or any of the Batfamily's rogues gallery. He has adversaries in Blockbuster et al, but he's a member of a larger corner of the DC-verse.
> 
> This reflects how I feel about Superman's rogues gallery also being shared among his extensive family. It just seems silly to limit choices just in order to create some sense of separation between characters that are very closely tied together.


Oh I definitely wouldn't want him to NOT fight the classic rogues. He has a long history with them after all.

I'd prefer a balance of him facing the old school Bat-foes, crossing paths with his old Titans foes (particularly Slade, who should be his arch enemy IMO), running across various major DCU villains, but also have a set of villains uniquely his own. The Bludhaven villains created by Dixion were an attempt at that, but they all suck lol. Might as well give him some cool garish villains that he already has somewhat of a claim on (Pyg and Flamingo in particular). Bonus points that villains like Flamingo, the Circus of the Strange, Raptor ad the Fist of Cain are not bound to one setting. They could be recurring villains for him who could naturally pop up in different locations like he does.

----------


## Frontier

I loved that Seeley issue where he went through like a whole host of random villains...

----------


## Restingvoice

Did some Twitter deep dive today because Diego Olortegui who's starting to work at DC with Aquaman 80th Anniversary and Aquaman The Becoming featuring Jackson Hyde is becoming my new favorite, and found his Inktober sketch of Dick Grayson Robin from 2015



Cute

----------


## John Venus

> I didn't like Beware the Batman, and I'm glad this didn't happen. Such a bizarre roster - as others have said, with so many characters in the Batfamily, why would you go this route? That whole show was puzzling.
> 
> That being said, I do encounter some people from time to time who enjoyed it, so perhaps they would have liked this too.


I couldn't get into the show either. 

Supposedly the higher ups wanted another 'darker' Batman show after the silliness of Batman: B&TB so that's what we got.  

It seemed like they were building up to an Outsiders with Katana being involved since ep 1 but it didn't come to fruition.

----------


## Frontier

> Did some Twitter deep dive today because Diego Olortegui who's starting to work at DC with Aquaman 80th Anniversary and Aquaman The Becoming featuring Jackson Hyde is becoming my new favorite, and found his Inktober sketch of Dick Grayson Robin from 2015
> 
> 
> 
> Cute


Had to be the New 52 suit, though...

----------


## WonderNight

With batman leaving Gotham is he also leaving the justice league too? If can nightwing finally join the justice league.

----------


## Vordan

> With batman leaving Gotham is he also leaving the justice league too? If can nightwing finally join the justice league.


Clark is leaving and it wouldn’t surprise me if Bruce drops out too. But I think Jace will get his spot.

----------


## Restingvoice

There are rumors of a separate Titans series for Dick's gen so there he'll be if that happens

----------


## AmiMizuno

This has lead me to wonder. When Dick does go to the JL. Should he also keep his Titans status? I notice many want him to drop it but I can't see why he can't have both. 

Also I learned that Folores aka Tarantula is alive. So I wonder if what she did to Dick is cannon.

----------


## WonderNight

> This has lead me to wonder. When Dick does go to the JL. Should he also keep his Titans status? I notice many want him to drop it but I can't see why he can't have both. 
> 
> Also I learned that Folores aka Tarantula is alive. So I wonder if what she did to Dick is cannon.


Jace is a rookie who needs to learn and fit into Gotham first.

Dick can be both a titan and a leaguer at the same time. Nightwing can be a teacher at the academy and do field missions with the league. Nightwing can do both!

----------


## WonderNight

With all these new status quo shack ups in infinite frontier the titans are going NTT nostalgia again? Come on.

----------


## Frontier

> Clark is leaving and it wouldn’t surprise me if Bruce drops out too. But I think Jace will get his spot.


Talk about name recognition where characters who've only worn their costumes for five minutes get into the Justice League because of branding  :Stick Out Tongue: .

(Although from what I've heard about Jace the League is probably the last place he'd want to be).

----------


## Lal

Nightwing continued to sell really well in July - 
https://www.comichron.com/monthlycom...1/2021-07.html

Right now he sells more than Justice League, Infinite Frontier, TTA, and almost any other DC book.
I wonder if we'll get more Titans content in continuity. Tim Sheridan said that he plans to leave TTA in issue 12 (more or less), and it's not clear what happens next. Maybe they'll divide the book to the original Titans and the students.

Titans united is apparently not in continuity and is suppose to help the TV series fans get to know these characters in comics.

----------


## Restingvoice

> Also I learned that Folores aka Tarantula is alive. So I wonder if what she did to Dick is cannon.


The happened because Nightwing was too emotionally wrecked after letting Tarantula killed Blockbuster for destroying his circus, apartment, and life and knowing that he will continue destroying everything he cared about. None of those happened now.




> Nightwing continued to sell really well in July - 
> https://www.comichron.com/monthlycom...1/2021-07.html
> 
> Right now he sells more than Justice League, Infinite Frontier, TTA, and almost any other DC book.
> I wonder if we'll get more Titans content in continuity. Tim Sheridan said that he plans to leave TTA in issue 12 (more or less), and it's not clear what happens next. Maybe they'll divide the book to the original Titans and the students.
> 
> Titans united is apparently not in continuity and is suppose to help the TV series fans get to know these characters in comics.


Huh. Usually Harley's number is higher than that, around Nightwing... wait... no... that _is_ the usual Harley number, it's just Nightwing sells way higher now. Good job. 

I didn't expect Yara Flor to sell that high, but I did hear DC has a LOT of Brazilian fans, and they showed up by the gajilions on Twitter when her series was announced, so there's the proof there

----------


## WonderNight

> The happened because Nightwing was too emotionally wrecked after letting Tarantula killed Blockbuster for destroying his circus, apartment, and life and knowing that he will continue destroying everything he cared about. None of those happened now.
> 
> 
> 
> Huh. Usually Harley's number is higher than that, around Nightwing... wait... no... that _is_ the usual Harley number, it's just Nightwing sells way higher now. Good job. 
> 
> I didn't expect Yara Flor to sell that high, but I did hear DC has a LOT of Brazilian fans, and they showed up by the gajilions on Twitter when her series was announced, so there's the proof there


So is nightwing currently DC's second best solo seller?

Yea brail is DC's second biggest market I think and they love wonder woman! So I see why dc is so invested in yara.

----------


## Veni

> Nightwing continued to sell really well in July - 
> https://www.comichron.com/monthlycom...1/2021-07.html
> 
> Right now he sells more than Justice League, Infinite Frontier, TTA, and almost any other DC book.
> I wonder if we'll get more Titans content in continuity. Tim Sheridan said that he plans to leave TTA in issue 12 (more or less), and it's not clear what happens next. Maybe they'll divide the book to the original Titans and the students.
> 
> Titans united is apparently not in continuity and is suppose to help the TV series fans get to know these characters in comics.


The writer of Titans United said on Twitter that it wasn't in continuity (for now), but if it gets popular they will make it canon.

----------


## Lal

> So is nightwing currently DC's second best solo seller?
> 
> Yea brail is DC's second biggest market I think and they love wonder woman! So I see why dc is so invested in yara.


Superman son of Kal-el sold more than Nightwing, and it also sold out (although it was the first issue).
And Joker was also higher.

But other than them... it seems so. Nightwing's numbers are really good right now. I hope it stays this way.

----------


## Rac7d*

> Jace is a rookie who needs to learn and fit into Gotham first.
> 
> Dick can be both a titan and a leaguer at the same time. Nightwing can be a teacher at the academy and do field missions with the league. Nightwing can do both!


I forgot Batman slot is gonna be open, Nightwing should take it

----------


## Lal

> I forgot Batman slot is gonna be open, Nightwing should take it


Why would Batman retire from the Justice League? He's not leaving the mantle, he's just leaving Gotham.

----------


## Rac7d*

> Why would Batman retire from the Justice League? He's not leaving the mantle, he's just leaving Gotham.


not retire just take an absence

----------


## Lal

> not retire just take an absence


Again, is there a reason to assume that? Did someone imply that Batman would take a step back from the justice league for a while?

----------


## Restingvoice

> So is nightwing currently DC's second best solo seller?
> 
> Yea brail is DC's second biggest market I think and they love wonder woman! So I see why dc is so invested in yara.


Fourth. First is Batman, counting Detective as well, then Joker, Jon Kent, then Nightwing.

----------


## Badou

> Nightwing continued to sell really well in July - 
> https://www.comichron.com/monthlycom...1/2021-07.html
> 
> Right now he sells more than Justice League, Infinite Frontier, TTA, and almost any other DC book.
> I wonder if we'll get more Titans content in continuity. Tim Sheridan said that he plans to leave TTA in issue 12 (more or less), and it's not clear what happens next. Maybe they'll divide the book to the original Titans and the students.


DC's sales numbers feel off. Like overestimated maybe? At least with some. I know Comichron doesn't get DC's numbers from Diamond anymore, since DC doesn't use Diamond and they are estimating them, but some of them feel high. Like it would be great for Nightwing to sell 54K a month on its own without some event, but those numbers are higher than what Nightwing in the 90s was selling. So that doesn't feel quite right. Like I get Nightwing was selling low at the end of the Ric saga, but for it to be selling maybe double what the Ric issues were feels like too big a jump when there was no relaunch of a new #1. Creative changes mid run don't double a book's sales historically anymore. Also Tynion's Batman is selling more than what Synder's New 52 Batman run was selling even though the first Vol. of Tynion's Batman run didn't stand out on the 2020 bookscan sales reports. I know Tynion used a lot of Joker in his run, so maybe that propped it up some, but if it was selling this well I would have thought it would be doing noticeably better in trade sales. 

Maybe I am missing something. I dunno. Just some of the numbers feel off to me I guess.

----------


## WonderNight

> Again, is there a reason to assume that? Did someone imply that Batman would take a step back from the justice league for a while?


Not yet. Its just dc is doing the same thing with both clark and bruce. They want them off to the side for awhile and that may mean of the league for now.

----------


## Lal

> DC's sales numbers feel off. Like overestimated maybe? At least with some. I know Comichron doesn't get DC's numbers from Diamond anymore, since DC doesn't use Diamond and they are estimating them, but some of them feel high. Like it would be great for Nightwing to sell 54K a month on its own without some event, but those numbers are higher than what Nightwing in the 90s was selling. So that doesn't feel quite right. Like I get Nightwing was selling low at the end of the Ric saga, but for it to be selling maybe double what the Ric issues were feels like too big a jump when there was no relaunch of a new #1. Creative changes mid run don't double a book's sales historically anymore. Also Tynion's Batman is selling more than what Synder's New 52 Batman run was selling even though the first Vol. of Tynion's Batman run didn't stand out on the 2020 bookscan sales reports. I know Tynion used a lot of Joker in his run, so maybe that propped it up some, but if it was selling this well I would have thought it would be doing noticeably better in trade sales. 
> 
> Maybe I am missing something. I dunno. Just some of the numbers feel off to me I guess.


We do know that overall all sales are up this year and that there is an overall increase in comics sales.

Also, Nightwing 83 was Comixology's 2nd best seller in the week it was released, and on Amazon Nightwing 83 is still number 19 in 45-comic books sales, even 2 weeks after it was released (https://www.amazon.com/Best-Sellers-...ding=UTF8&pg=1). 
it looks promising.
But even if the numbers are inflated, the overall ranking of DC books as compared to themselves shouldn't really change. It still means that Nightwing sells better than JL, flash, WW, TTA, GL, and almost any other DC book right now.

----------


## WonderNight

Ok so I don't have a Twitter account but if one of you do can we Twitt the creative team and ask/remind them that current bludhaven is a casino Vegas Atlantic city type city.

I'd like for Gotham and Bludhaven to not look and feel like the like the same place.

----------


## Rac7d*

> Again, is there a reason to assume that? Did someone imply that Batman would take a step back from the justice league for a while?


I would assume so as Diana is not their, Clark is about go away and now Bruce too by January

----------


## Frontier

> The writer of Titans United said on Twitter that it wasn't in continuity (for now), but if it gets popular they will make it canon.


I guess I hope it doesn't contradict too much.

----------


## Ascended

Yeah 54K sales sounds too good to be true. But who knows, sales have been trending up the last few years, Taylor's fairly well known, and DC did seem to market this run a lot. Dick doesn't usually pull those kinds of numbers but after everything that's gone down the last couple years, both in the DCU and real world....well, weirder things are happening yknow? Whatever the real numbers might be, we should be happy that he's out-selling pretty much all of DC. That's the kind of ranking performance we need to see if Dick's ever gonna grow the brand.

As for Dick joining the League....whatever. He deserves a spot there, he's a better choice than like, 99% of the hero community, but I don't see it doing much for him honestly. The League is where the A-list go, it's not where you become A-list. Joining the team would likely result in Dick jobbing and/or being stuck on the sidelines. Just as Vic. 

Being on the League *could* be good for Dick in theory....but whoever was writing it, and editorial, would have to treat Dick like he belonged there and wasn't just a substitute keeping Bruce's chair warm for him. 

Really liked the latest issue, btw. The talk with Clark was spot-on and Dick's new non-profit, while not a terribly original concept, feels like a "Dick" move. I doubt it'll stick, none of Dick's jobs ever do, and it's not the kind of "next big thing" thinking I was hoping for, but I feel like it's serviceable.

----------


## Restingvoice

Consider what the lineup has right now that it didn't have even during Seeley and Dixon Nightwing:
Tim doesn't have a book
Babs doesn't have a book
So their fans flock here, including hardcore Batgirl fans wanting to see some Batgirl action, and then disappointed since she's mostly Oracle. 

Taylor also provide a lot of Bat fam fanservice with Tim and Dick relation reminiscent of Dixon era. Old fans have missed that since most of the time it's Dick and Damian that's depicted as brothers. Ever since New 52 there's been Tim fans saying that Tim doesn't sound like Tim anymore, including when he's written by Tynion in Detective Comics Rebirth. I've been reading the reaction in Tumblr and Twitter that the Joker War Tim, the current Nightwing Tim, and Batman Urban Legends Tim is the closer to the old Tim than the others before them. 

Now with the clarification that Sheridan is not doing Dick Kori pairing, Taylor and the editor Jess Chen firmly going forward with Dick Babs, you're gonna get that fans as well, if they're not here already since the first issue of the relaunch.

In Taylor's twitter, a few people have been saying that this is the first time they're picking up Nightwing, so they got new fans too

----------


## Godlike13

Tim's not a draw, and Dick and Babs fans overlap. They aren't doubling the sales.

----------


## Vordan

The _Titans_ show and the upcoming _Gotham Knights_ game might also be having an impact.

----------


## Wingin' It

> The _Titans_ show and the upcoming _Gotham Knights_ game might also be having an impact.


I honestly think it's a combination of media presence drawing in more fans and Tom Taylor being a higher profile writer. People seem to like his way of storytelling. Plus, the art is as many have mentioned, absolutely a treat.

----------


## Drako

It's so weird that the first time y'all start to have doubts about the numbers is when the book is selling well.

----------


## Wingin' It

> It's so weird that the first time y'all start to have doubts about the numbers is when the book is selling well.


We are an optimistic bunch here  :Wink:  but I am honestly thrilled to hear it's doing so well.

----------


## Godlike13

> It's so weird that the first time y'all start to have doubts about the numbers is when the book is selling well.


Cause it’s nonetheless strange and very uncommon to see a book go from low 20s to mid 50s, and then even just defy typical month to month deflation. 

But honestly the exact numbers don’t really matter. Just going from the rank and trend it’s positive indication. Which is good, and important after something like Ric. Proving continual viability.

----------


## Drako

> Cause it’s nonetheless strange and very uncommon to see a book go from low 20s to mid 50s, and then even just defy typical month to month deflation. 
> 
> But honestly the exact numbers don’t really matter. Just going from the rank and trend it’s positive indication. Which is good, and important after something like Ric. Proving continual viability.


Maybe, but we saw this book being the one of best seller on Comixology every release. #83 was only behind the new X-Event with Magneto. He outsold 3 other X-men books, a Batman book by Tom King and a Superman book by Grant Morrison. That's a good feat!

I know maybe half of people here don't like Tom Taylor, but he and Redondo are a A list creative team and they make people talk about their work. I don't remember seen a book have this postive mouth to mouth in a while.

----------


## Godlike13

Digital is different. That’s direct to consumer, where with print it’s months in advance orders from shops based on what they think they can sell/are comfortable keeping on selves.

----------


## Drako

> Digital is different. That’s direct to consumer, where with print it’s months in advance orders from shops based on what they think they can sell/are comfortable keeping on selves.


How long in advance? Is there any correlation to the three first issues of the books having sold out?

----------


## Godlike13

> How long in advance? Is there any correlation to the three first issues of the books having sold out?


3-4 months. First three issues selling out indicates shops didn’t order enough so DC didn’t produce enough.

----------


## Drako

> 3-4 months. *First three issues selling out indicates shops didn’t order enough so DC didn’t produce enough*.


I know. 

So, by now we must be getting the regular numbers, right? That's why the other issues did not sold out.

Anyways, the book is in a good place right now, that's what matters. Next three months are part of the Bat event, so we should expect a raise in units sold, i think.

----------


## Restingvoice

> 3-4 months. First three issues selling out indicates shops didn’t order enough so DC didn’t produce enough.


3-4 months means before solicitations for that issue come out (to public). Is it already sent to the stores? 

I know writer and artists also already start working 3-4 months in advance, like for example, Aquaman 80th anniversary and The Becoming have been in the works and announced since June, but won't come out until... September?

----------


## Daedalus

Happy that the numbers are so good. I've been loving the run so far, so hopefully they keep Taylor on writing duties for much longer and don't interfere with his work.

----------


## Godlike13

> 3-4 months means before solicitations for that issue come out (to public). Is it already sent to the stores? 
> 
> I know writer and artists also already start working 3-4 months in advance, like for example, Aquaman 80th anniversary and The Becoming have been in the works and announced since June, but won't come out until... September?


Shops get a catalogue from the publishers. I’m not sure the exact time of listings but it’s generally 3 or 4 months before shipping. Projects can be announced before they are listed to actually order.

----------


## Lal

> Shops get a catalogue from the publishers. I’m not sure the exact time of listings but it’s generally 3 or 4 months before shipping.


For example, via previews - (https://previewsworld.com/) it's still impossible to order the books announced in the November solicitations. So I assume it's only 2 months in advance.

----------


## Badou

Grayson was a very good seller on Comixology too. It was a top 5-6 book and beating much higher profile books, but was only selling in the 20Ks or 30Ks on Comichron. Then I also remember Harley Quinn during her peak a number of years ago was selling unexpectedly low on Comixology, like outside the top 10-15, but selling 60-70K on Comichron. So I don't think the numbers always reflect each other perfectly. 

I mean it would be great if Nightwing was averaging 54K on its own without some event, I'm not the biggest fan of Taylor's run but I'd never want to see the book fail, but just how Comichron is calculating some of the books, mostly the Batman ones, it felt off to me. Obviously it selling 54K in both June and July is questionable too, since there should be sales attrition month to month on normal issues, but maybe it is just the way Comichron is calculating DC's sales now since they had to change their process. Maybe when they have more data they can follow sales trends better.

----------


## HsssH

> Also Tynion's Batman is selling more than what Synder's New 52 Batman run was selling even though the first Vol. of Tynion's Batman run didn't stand out on the 2020 bookscan sales reports. I know Tynion used a lot of Joker in his run, so maybe that propped it up some, but if it was selling this well I would have thought it would be doing noticeably better in trade sales.


I think that Tynion's run gets higher numbers due to lots of new characters being introduced and speculators picking up those "first appearance of X" issues. And well, no reason to pick up a trade after that. Asides of Joker War I think that I haven't seen any of his trades doing well on Amazon either, while Snyder's stuff and even Morrison's omnibuses pop up from time to time.

Edit: Looked at Amazon's top superhero sellers and in Top 100 nothing from Tynion and lots of Snyder.

----------


## Restingvoice

> For example, via previews - (https://previewsworld.com/) it's still impossible to order the books announced in the November solicitations. So I assume it's only 2 months in advance.


That's readers preorder to the stores right?

----------


## Lal

> That's readers preorder to the stores right?


Yes. 
So you can preorder starting from two months in advance (so November solicitations in September, etc), up until the FOC to guarantee you get the comics you want.

----------


## Rac7d*

> DC's sales numbers feel off. Like overestimated maybe? At least with some. I know Comichron doesn't get DC's numbers from Diamond anymore, since DC doesn't use Diamond and they are estimating them, but some of them feel high. Like it would be great for Nightwing to sell 54K a month on its own without some event, but those numbers are higher than what Nightwing in the 90s was selling. So that doesn't feel quite right. Like I get Nightwing was selling low at the end of the Ric saga, but for it to be selling maybe double what the Ric issues were feels like too big a jump when there was no relaunch of a new #1. Creative changes mid run don't double a book's sales historically anymore. Also Tynion's Batman is selling more than what Synder's New 52 Batman run was selling even though the first Vol. of Tynion's Batman run didn't stand out on the 2020 bookscan sales reports. I know Tynion used a lot of Joker in his run, so maybe that propped it up some, but if it was selling this well I would have thought it would be doing noticeably better in trade sales. 
> 
> Maybe I am missing something. I dunno. Just some of the numbers feel off to me I guess.


I agree about wondergirl, her selling double of wonderwoman feels off

----------


## Digifiend

> I guess I hope it doesn't contradict too much.


Superboy is in Titans United. That seems to contradict Suicide Squad.

----------


## AmiMizuno

I'm curious in terms of Dick's generation who would you consider to be their version of the trinity? I have always thought Dick, Wally and Donna

----------


## Lal

> Superboy is in Titans United. That seems to contradict Suicide Squad.


The Titans United writer said the book is outside of the main Infinite frontier timeline, and more of a story to familiarize the TV show fans with the comics. He also said it's very influenced by the NTT run.

So as far as we know, Dick could also be with Starfire in this book.

----------


## AmiMizuno

> The Titans United writer said the book is outside of the main Infinite frontier timeline, and more of a story to familiarize the TV show fans with the comics. He also said it's very influenced by the NTT run.
> 
> So as far as we know, Dick could also be with Starfire in this book.


So far we know TTA happens a few months before Nightwing. But I do wonder if this will keep happening with Babs and Kori love triangle happened in different ways

----------


## Rac7d*

> Superboy is in Titans United. That seems to contradict Suicide Squad.


Well we have two Connors right now so it does not

----------


## Rac7d*

> The Titans United writer said the book is outside of the main Infinite frontier timeline, and more of a story to familiarize the TV show fans with the comics. He also said it's very influenced by the NTT run.
> 
> So as far as we know, Dick could also be with Starfire in this book.


We’ll see if that sells the book, then again dick and Kory have not been romantically involved since season 1
Right now their in separate storylines.

----------


## Vordan

> I'm curious in terms of Dick's generation who would you consider to be their version of the trinity? I have always thought Dick, Wally and Donna


That’s the comics one. Because of the YJ and Titans shows though, I’ve seen a lot of people consider Dick’s Trinity to be Dick, Donna, and Conner.

----------


## Frontier

> That’s the comics one. Because of the YJ and Titans shows though, I’ve seen a lot of people consider Dick’s Trinity to be Dick, Donna, and Conner.


Yeah, the fact that Conner was the Superboy to Dick's Robin was always kind...interesting, although they've never been depicted as close as, say, Dick and Wally or Tim and Conner.

----------


## Drako

> That’s the comics one. Because of the YJ and Titans shows though, I’ve seen a lot of people consider Dick’s Trinity to be Dick, Donna, and Conner.


Conner doesn't have much importance until now in the Titans show. And Donna is not even part of YJ.

So unless you count one for each show, that doesn't make much sense.

But Wally was Dick's best friend in YJ and Donna is his best friend in Titans.

----------


## Rac7d*

> Conner doesn't have much importance until now in the Titans show. And Donna is not even part of YJ.
> 
> So unless you count one for each show, that doesn't make much sense.
> 
> But Wally was Dick's best friend in YJ and Donna is his best friend in Titans.


The new encyclopedia confirms this

----------


## Grayson - The Dark Heir

Without looking into it I don't want to say anything specific, but the Nightwing book doing better month-to-month with the current does not surprise me at all. The book gets better press and attention with every passing issue.

I may not love the book right now, but you'd have to be deliberately ignoring other people to miss how much more of an impact the Nightwing book is having month-to-month than it used to lol.

----------


## Daedalus

> That’s the comics one. Because of the YJ and Titans shows though, I’ve seen a lot of people consider Dick’s Trinity to be Dick, Donna, and Conner.


That can't be because of YJ, since Donna's role there is almost a cameo. Must be exclusively due to Titans, where she is quite present, though both Donna and Dick are clearly a generation above Conner there as well.

----------


## adrikito

Happy to finally listen this:

Batman Officially Considers Nightwing *His Greatest Triumph*. 

https://screenrant.com/batman-love-n...t-hero-comics/

I think the same.  :Wink:   :Cool:

----------


## Drako

> The new encyclopedia confirms this


what new encyclopedia?




> Happy to finally listen this:
> 
> Batman Officially Considers Nightwing *His Greatest Triumph*. 
> 
> https://screenrant.com/batman-love-n...t-hero-comics/
> 
> I think the same.


I saw this in Batman\Catwoman, it was cool.
Not the first this was stated tho.

----------


## Claude

> Without looking into it I don't want to say anything specific, but the Nightwing book doing better month-to-month with the current does not surprise me at all. The book gets better press and attention with every passing issue.
> 
> I may not love the book right now, but you'd have to be deliberately ignoring other people to miss how much more of an impact the Nightwing book is having month-to-month than it used to lol.


Yeah - the book has a _lot_ going for it right now. It's selling well, it's being well reviewed, Taylor is aiming big - and has the freedom to basically declare what bits of Nightwing history are in continuity and which aren't. He's tied it to an attention-grabbing development in "Superman" that is under his own control, it lacks the inherent divisiveness that "Grayson" had, whilst also being more divorced from Batman plots/runs (while still making use of popular Batman characters). 

And it has the ultimate ace in the hole that if sales do slip/attention wanes, having _not_ re-set the numbering when Taylor and Redondo took over - they have that in their back pocket to pull, Marvel style, mid-run.

Opinions on _quality_ aside - a good long Taylor/Redondo run on the title based on the foundation we've seen so far could be as definitive as Johns on Green Lantern.

(Not as financially successful - if only! - but in terms of establishing a character.)

----------


## HsssH

> Without looking into it I don't want to say anything specific, but the Nightwing book doing better month-to-month with the current does not surprise me at all. The book gets better press and attention with every passing issue.
> 
> I may not love the book right now, but you'd have to be deliberately ignoring other people to miss how much more of an impact the Nightwing book is having month-to-month than it used to lol.


Yeah, I'm not a big fan of the direction, but I'm ready to admit that I'm out of touch  :Big Grin:

----------


## Rac7d*

I hope for a consistentancy that last 
I want this run to rival Dixon

----------


## WonderNight

Ok so this is not a who's better but based on the timeline does dick have more experience as a hero in the field than all of the other Robin's and duke combined?

Robin #5 made me think about this.

----------


## Restingvoice

> Ok so this is not a who's better but based on the timeline does dick have more experience as a hero in the field than all of the other Robin's and duke combined?
> 
> Robin #5 made me think about this.


Damian started at 10 until now at 14 so he has 4 years.
Duke started at 16 when Damian was 12 until now so he has 2 years.
Tim in the current timeline we don't know when he started but assuming it's the same 13 and he's now 19 at the oldest so he has 6 years max.
Stephanie started a year after Tim so 5 years max.
Jason was never clarified when he died but using the classic 12 to 15 he has 4 years max as Robin. Then add Tim's years until now, since he's immediately resurrected to train with the League of Assassins, he has 10 years max.
Dick hasn't been cleared but since Taylor seems to be using Dixon then it's around 12 to 18-19 so 7-8 years just for Robin. Then add Jason's years so he has about 18 years of experience max. 

So no, not combined, but he's still been at it for most of his life.

----------


## Vordan

There have been a couple reviews coming out that have been more critical of Taylors run, and Ive found them echoing a lot of peoples dissatisfaction. Heres a link to one: https://www.comicsbookcase.com/revie...mpression=true

This one reviews the first trade/arc. I enjoyed reading it and heres my favorite line:



> What Taylor does steer into, however, is memes.


This was great to read, finally others are agreeing with me! Im still buying the run but I need Taylor to bring some fresh ideas to the table once we get back to Bludhaven after Fear State. Great art and fanservice have carried him so far because of how bad Ric was, but that can only carry you for so long.

----------


## Frontier

> There have been a couple reviews coming out that have been more critical of Taylor’s run, and I’ve found them echoing a lot of people’s dissatisfaction. Here’s a link to one: https://www.comicsbookcase.com/revie...mpression=true
> 
> This one reviews the first trade/arc. I enjoyed reading it and here’s my favorite line:
> 
> 
> This was great to read, finally others are agreeing with me! I’m still buying the run but I need Taylor to bring some fresh ideas to the table once we get back to Bludhaven after Fear State. Great art and fanservice have carried him so far because of how bad Ric was, but that can only carry you for so long.


This makes me think the writer whose comics I'm most likely to see on tumblr are Taylor (and maybe Al Ewing).

----------


## WonderNight

> There have been a couple reviews coming out that have been more critical of Taylors run, and Ive found them echoing a lot of peoples dissatisfaction. Heres a link to one: https://www.comicsbookcase.com/revie...mpression=true
> 
> This one reviews the first trade/arc. I enjoyed reading it and heres my favorite line:
> 
> 
> This was great to read, finally others are agreeing with me! Im still buying the run but I need Taylor to bring some fresh ideas to the table once we get back to Bludhaven after Fear State. Great art and fanservice have carried him so far because of how bad Ric was, but that can only carry you for so long.


Yo fantastic review! Nightwing should be leaping into new territory and new heights but is grounded in nostalgia and batfam.

----------


## Rac7d*

> Happy to finally listen this:
> 
> Batman Officially Considers Nightwing *His Greatest Triumph*. 
> 
> https://screenrant.com/batman-love-n...t-hero-comics/
> 
> I think the same.


Hopefully the sentimentnladt and another writer does not contradict it

----------


## HsssH

> There have been a couple reviews coming out that have been more critical of Taylor’s run, and I’ve found them echoing a lot of people’s dissatisfaction. Here’s a link to one: https://www.comicsbookcase.com/revie...mpression=true
> 
> This one reviews the first trade/arc. I enjoyed reading it and here’s my favorite line:
> 
> 
> This was great to read, finally others are agreeing with me! I’m still buying the run but I need Taylor to bring some fresh ideas to the table once we get back to Bludhaven after Fear State. Great art and fanservice have carried him so far because of how bad Ric was, but that can only carry you for so long.


But if sales stay solid then this will send a clear message to DC - Nightwing fans want him going in circles, Batfam fanservice and memes. And I'm sure that there are many Nightwing fans who are actually okay with that, but I'm not sure where that leaves people like me.

----------


## Restingvoice

> But if sales stay solid then this will send a clear message to DC - Nightwing fans want him going in circles, Batfam fanservice and memes. And I'm sure that there are many Nightwing fans who are actually okay with that, but I'm not sure where that leaves people like me.


Which part is going in circles? Fighting Blockbuster and corrupt cops again?

----------


## HsssH

That and being in Bludhaven, teasing relationship with Babs.

----------


## Restingvoice

Nightwing Royal Mail Stamp by Jim Cheung and Laura Martin

----------


## Frontier

> Nightwing Royal Mail Stamp by Jim Cheung and Laura Martin


Cool Nightwing shot  :Smile: .

----------


## Iclifton

> That and being in Bludhaven, teasing relationship with Babs.


There are not teasing, they are actually together. At least we get to explore their relationship this time. How is Bludhaven going in circles. I understand it may not be your preferred setting, but it is his city. Is it going in circles when Batman fights crime in Gotham? Like it or not Dick is a bat character. The best case scenario is him having his own city/corner of the DCU. Thats better than any other Bat fam can hope for.

While I loved Grayson and Dickbats, neither of those two settings are sustainable long term. Bludhaven is.

----------


## SiegePerilous02

> There are not teasing, they are actually together. At least we get to explore their relationship this time. How is Bludhaven going in circles. I understand it may not be your preferred setting, but it is his city. Is it going in circles when Batman fights crime in Gotham? Like it or not Dick is a bat character. The best case scenario is him having his own city/corner of the DCU. Thats better than any other Bat fam can hope for.
> 
> While I loved Grayson and Dickbats, neither of those two settings are sustainable long term. Bludhaven is.


I think the Nightwing identity is sustainable long term, the Bludhaven location is a distant second in terms of importance. None of Dick's major iconic stories nor his important relationships are located there. Batman doesn't go in circles in Gotham because Gotham has existed since forever and is actually a cool setting with all the good characters in it.

A globe trotting Nightwing like out of "Better than Batman" and "Nightwing Must Die" would be far preferable to Bludhaven. If he needs to stop anywhere for an extended period of time, just make it Gotham or Titans Tower before he takes off again. Characters who actually matter are in those locations.

----------


## Rac7d*

Globetrotter Nightwing can’t happen when Bruce is about to leave Gotham

----------


## Iclifton

> I think the Nightwing identity is sustainable long term, the Bludhaven location is a distant second in terms of importance. None of Dick's major iconic stories nor his important relationships are located there. Batman doesn't go in circles in Gotham because Gotham has existed since forever and is actually a cool setting with all the good characters in it.
> 
> A globe trotting Nightwing like out of "Better than Batman" and "Nightwing Must Die" would be far preferable to Bludhaven. If he needs to stop anywhere for an extended period of time, just make it Gotham or Titans Tower before he takes off again. Characters who actually matter are in those locations.


Preferable, maybe. But it does not have the longevity. As long as he is a Bat character he would always get pulled back to Gotham and needs a setting of his own. Much like Jason who doesn't have a long term setting/world. Every writer would come and disregard what the last writer did. He can still globetrot from Bludhaven but he needs a setting he can build off of. The city provides him something that is own. Hence why he keeps returning to it. Being based out of Gotham would be the absolute worst case scenario.

In terms of iconic stories, Dixon`s Nightwing has had the greatest impact on the Nightwing brand. It is the best "long term" run the character has had. As mentioned above, all other great Dick Grayson stories came with status quo`s that were never going to be sustainable(Dickbats and Grayson).  This is why it is good thing to build up and flesh out Bludhaven`s ecosystem.

I love stories like Grayson, larger than life. But there is nothing wrong with a grounded take on the character either. Just like how both the grounded Bendis and larger than life Waid Daredevil runs were both great.

----------


## SiegePerilous02

> Preferable, maybe. But it does not have the longevity. As long as he is a Bat character he would always get pulled back to Gotham and needs a setting of his own. Much like Jason who doesn't have a long term setting/world. Every writer would come and disregard what the last writer did. He can still globetrot from Bludhaven but he needs a setting he can build off of. The city provides him something that is own. Hence why he keeps returning to it. 
> 
> In terms of iconic stories, Dixon`s Nightwing has had the greatest impact on the Nightwing brand. It is the best "long term" run the character has had. As mentioned above, all other great Dick Grayson stories came with status quo`s that were never going to be sustainable(Dickbats and Grayson).  This is why it is good thing to build up and flesh out Bludhaven`s ecosystem.
> 
> I love stories like Grayson, larger than life. But there is nothing wrong with a grounded take on the character either. Just like how both the grounded Bendis and larger than life Waid Daredevil runs were both great.


Does it actually have longevity or does it just keep coming back because they don't know what else to do and like to cater to nostalgia?

The Nightwing brand still isn't as strong as Robin, which is the most important mantle Dick has had. Nightwing's success as a brand is informed entirely by the fact that it is "the first Robin as an adult and on his own." His book can be set anywhere and it will be well received because he is in it. I've read the first few trades of the Dixon Nightwing run, they were fine but not exactly memorable. Compared to the sheer volume of material he had as Robin or the impact of the Wolfman/Perez NTT run, none of it really measures up. He's always going to be intrinsically tied to the Bat-franchise, and Bludhaven doesn't really protect him from being roped into things. And doesn't really offer much on its own, all the important characters and villains he has dynamics with are located elsewhere. There is nothing for him there, and if it couldn't be built up in the 90s for long term sustainability, I don't see it being able to do it now when such things have much harder times getting off the ground. It's never going to be his Gotham or Metropolis because there are no intrinsic ties there and it's not nearly as interesting as a setting as those two cities.

----------


## Iclifton

> Does it actually have longevity or does it just keep coming back because they don't know what else to do and like to cater to nostalgia?
> 
> The Nightwing brand still isn't as strong as Robin, which is the most important mantle Dick has had. Nightwing's success as a brand is informed entirely by the fact that it is "the first Robin as an adult and on his own." His book can be set anywhere and it will be well received because he is in it. I've read the first few trades of the Dixon Nightwing run, they were fine but not exactly memorable. Compared to the sheer volume of material he had as Robin or the impact of the Wolfman/Perez NTT run, none of it really measures up. He's always going to be intrinsically tied to the Bat-franchise, and Bludhaven doesn't really protect him from being roped into things. And doesn't really offer much on its own, all the important characters and villains he has dynamics with are located elsewhere. There is nothing for him there, and if it couldn't be built up in the 90s for long term sustainability, I don't see it being able to do it now when such things have much harder times getting off the ground. It's never going to be his Gotham or Metropolis because there are no intrinsic ties there and it's not nearly as interesting as a setting as those two cities.


Yes and Nightwing will never be more recognizable than Robin. And yes, the characters hook is he is the first Robin on his own. I'm not seeing your point. 

The Dixon run is what established him as a solo hero. There is no debate there. Bludhaven allows him to have a city and status quo not dependent on Bruce. It allows him to have a long term sustainable setting outside of Gotham. Getting roped into the occasional crossover is a lot different than a book being based out of Gotham, where he would essentially be its number 2 hero. How can any writer make Bludhaven interesting if every time a story is set there people complain. In terms of you not seeing it able to get off the ground currently, you are incorrect. His sales are the best they have been since he was Batman. All of the settings you are pitching have been done. None have been as successfully sales wise as his current status quo. Guaranteed if there is a Nightwing solo show or animated series it will be set in Bludhaven. 

He will always go back to it. Like it or not, Bludhaven has become synonymous with Nightwing. Energy needs to be spent on making iconic stories set there.

----------


## Drako

Talking about going in circles, this thread is always going 360 degrees and landing on the same discussion.

----------


## Digifiend

> Globetrotter Nightwing can’t happen when Bruce is about to leave Gotham


Dick's not taking over this time, Jace is.

----------


## SiegePerilous02

> Yes and Nightwing will never be more recognizable than Robin. And yes, the characters hook is he is the first Robin on his own. I'm not seeing your point.


That all the stuff that makes Nightwing popular and important can be carried with him away from the setting that got blown up during IC and nobody cared. 




> The Dixon run is what established him as a solo hero. There is no debate there. Bludhaven allows him to have a city and status quo not dependent on Bruce. It allows him to have a long term sustainable setting outside of Gotham. Getting roped into the occasional crossover is a lot different than a book being based out of Gotham, where he would essentially be its number 2 hero. How can any writer make Bludhaven interesting if every time a story is set there people complain. In terms of you not seeing it able to get off the ground currently, you are incorrect. His sales are the best they have been since he was Batman. All of the settings you are pitching have been done. None have been as successfully sales wise as his current status quo. Guaranteed if there is a Nightwing solo show or animated series it will be set in Bludhaven.


People complain because the writers aren't succeeding in making it interesting, and all the fan favorite dynamics Dick has are with characters located elsewhere that have to be imported into the city. 

He's enjoying high sales, but I think coming off the dreadful Ric arc and a fan favorite writer like Tom Taylor (along with some great art) may have something to do with it, and Bludhaven just happens to be here reaping the benefits. He's spending most of his time with Babs, a non-Bludhaven character, and some of the better received moments are his scenes with Superman, Tim and the Titans attempting to come to his rescue. All not native to Bludhaven. 




> He will always go back to it. Like it or not, Bludhaven has become synonymous with Nightwing. Energy needs to be spent on making iconic stories set there.


If energy has to be spent in making it interesting instead of coming naturally for writers, it may not be worth the effort. Seeley's energy would have been better spent not writing Bludhaven because he was transparently not interested but editorial forced him to work it in.

----------


## Rac7d*

> Dick's not taking over this time, Jace is.


He’s not taking over but he kind of becomes the patriarch

----------


## Iclifton

> That all the stuff that makes Nightwing popular and important can be carried with him away from the setting that got blown up during IC and nobody cared. 
> 
> 
> 
> People complain because the writers aren't succeeding in making it interesting, and all the fan favorite dynamics Dick has are with characters located elsewhere that have to be imported into the city. 
> 
> He's enjoying high sales, but I think coming off the dreadful Ric arc and a fan favorite writer like Tom Taylor (along with some great art) may have something to do with it, and Bludhaven just happens to be here reaping the benefits. He's spending most of his time with Babs, a non-Bludhaven character, and some of the better received moments are his scenes with Superman, Tim and the Titans attempting to come to his rescue. All not native to Bludhaven. 
> 
> 
> ...


Dixon succeeded and now so is Taylor. In fact Dixon succeeded to the point where Nightwing became a viable solo hero. Up until that point he was just the leader of the Titans. Name one other decent writer who even tried. The only one is Seeley, who really just wanted to continue Grayson under the guise of Nightwing. Without a doubt his positive traits can be carried with him to another city, sure. But then it will be just another city. This has been tried as well. He ends up at Bludhaven or in Gotham as a second fiddle to Bruce. They have not stuck. Yes, he is with Babs, another bat character who he has a close relationship with. As noted, part of his appeal is that he is the first Robin grown up. Meaning it is natural he would interact with the Batfamily. He IS the bat family, the original. 

The appeal of this storyline is putting Dick in the position Bruce was with Gotham(billionaire superhero) and seeing how he handles it differently as he is a different character. The problem is not Bludhaven, it is that you cannot except Dick in a status quo that is not globetrotting. Other than that or him being Batman, you would be arguing the same points regardless. Those status quo`s are not sustainable. It would not make for an adaption the way Bludhaven can in movies or series. Dick will never, be in a permanent globe trotting position. Ever. It will always end with him back in a city.

But instead of embracing it Dick Grayson fans want their exact cocktail of plot elements to enjoy the story. I do not think Taylors run is perfect, but at least DC is putting real talent and marketing behind the character. And it is paying off.

----------


## Rakiduam

> Dixon succeeded and now so is Taylor. In fact Dixon succeeded to the point where Nightwing became a viable solo hero. Up until that point he was just the leader of the Titans. Name one other decent writer who even tried. The only one is Seeley, who really just wanted to continue Grayson under the guise of Nightwing. Without a doubt his positive traits can be carried with him to another city, sure. But then it will be just another city. This has been tried as well. He ends up at Bludhaven or in Gotham as a second fiddle to Bruce. They have not stuck. Yes, he is with Babs, another bat character who he has a close relationship with. As noted, part of his appeal is that he is the first Robin grown up. Meaning it is natural he would interact with the Batfamily. He IS the bat family, the original. 
> 
> The appeal of this storyline is putting Dick in the position Bruce was with Gotham(billionaire superhero) and seeing how he handles it differently as he is a different character. The problem is not Bludhaven, it is that you cannot except Dick in a status quo that is not globetrotting. Other than that or him being Batman, you would be arguing the same points regardless. Those status quo`s are not sustainable. It would not make for an adaption the way Bludhaven can in movies or series. Dick will never, be in a permanent globe trotting position. Ever. It will always end with him back in a city.
> 
> But instead of embracing it Dick Grayson fans want their exact cocktail of plot elements to enjoy the story. I do not think Taylors run is perfect, but at least DC is putting real talent and marketing behind the character. And it is paying off.


So. Success is being a lesser version of another character. Batman little forever, awesome.

----------


## Iclifton

> So. Success is being a lesser version of another character. Batman little forever, awesome.


Success is good sales, strong stories and character moments. Something Dick has more of than any Batfamily character(which like it or not he is and always will be) and most DC characters in general. 

I truly do not care about the setting of a Nightwing story when I read it. I only want DC to put talent behind it. Not too mention, the current run is going out of its way to highlight how he is different than Batman.

Like I said, people just want their exact cocktail of plot elements for Nightwing and if they don`t get it, the direction sucks.

----------


## Iclifton

"Budhaven sucks because it does not establish Dick as an important DC character outside of the batfam." Titans show: "Bludhaven sucks because it makes no sense Dick can just call the Titans if he is in touble".

"Dick looks so inefficient getting surprised by Babs in the opening issue". Dick pulls off a cool feat such as taking out the helicopter:"Thats so unrealistic Dick could run at a gunman shooting at him".

Haters are determined to hate.

----------


## Godlike13

Stuff cycles in and out. The traditional stuff was cycled out with Ric, that went so poorly, that cycling the traditional back in was appealing again. Eventually it'll loose its luster and they'll cycle out again. Bludhaven has only been back for 5 years. Some of you are exaggerating its use. He's been located elsewhere. They done it. A lot. And its not necessarily any better. Especially when it comes to Nightwing specifically. Also while Babs isn't a Bludhaven native, she was a resident supporting character of the era nevertheless.

----------


## SiegePerilous02

> Like I said, people just want their exact cocktail of plot elements for Nightwing and if they don`t get it, the direction sucks.


I don't know that all fans who dislike Bludhaven have a consistent "perfect cocktail" they demand and not accept anything else, they just see nostalgia for the Dixon days as a creative dead end and not much of a draw. 

This is the "Classic Coke" Nightwing that they needed to pull him out of the rut Ric put him in, it's the safe choice to get him back on track. But if we want the character to soar to new heights long term, being Discount Batman in Discount Gotham forever leaves something to be desired. 




> Stuff cycles in and out. The traditional stuff was cycled out with Ric, that went so poorly, that cycling the traditional back in was appealing again. Eventually it'll loose its luster and they'll cycle out again. Bludhaven has only been back for 5 years. Some of you are exaggerating its use. He's been located elsewhere. They done it. A lot. And its not necessarily any better. Especially when it comes to Nightwing specifically. Also while Babs isn't a Bludhaven native, she was a resident supporting character of the era nevertheless.


If Babs and Gotham characters are going to be showing up so much and there aren't any Bludhaven characters or villains anybody is really clamoring to see back, it does beg the question of "why not just have him in Gotham, Batman's reach extends to Bludhaven anyway" 

yeah it's back and will cycle back out again, but knowing it will cycle back out brings a feeling of "spinning the wheels" here.

----------


## Rakiduam

> ...strong stories and character moments. Something Dick has more of than any Batfamily character(which like it or not he is and always will be) and most DC characters in general.


That's just not true. Not even the all new missing, sister is something other DC characters haven't had. This Dixon style stories are so weak that nobody has even bother making something outside comics with them. And with Taylor's run, there's jut nothing there 
but nostalgia. 

Such average waste of good art.

----------


## Claude

> If Babs and Gotham characters are going to be showing up so much and there aren't any Bludhaven characters or villains anybody is really clamoring to see back, it does beg the question of "why not just have him in Gotham, Batman's reach extends to Bludhaven anyway"


I suppose the big answer is that Dick could plausibly "win" in Bludhaven with his new scheme of social improvements, leaving it better.... Or he could lose in Bludhaven to the point where it's Chemo'd again. Whereas any idea Dick has in Gotham or about Gotham 1) Can't be seen to be better or more effective than any of Batman's ideas, and 2) can't affect the wider status quo that other titles depend on.

Hopefully Taylor is playing big enough that over the run Dick's decisions can have an impact on the city - this last issue suggested that he might be, but at least it's _possible._

For my money, in a lot of ways this Fear State tie-in will be make-or-break - at the moment I'm quite relaxed about, and enjoying, Babs and Tim in the book* because they don't feel like the kind of Bat Interference that felt like it derailed Higgins' run every six months to blow up everything around Dick and wipe out his guest cast while Nightwing got beat up a lot. If Taylor can get through a three issue crossover and make it feel like a Nightwing story set against a Fear State backdrop, rather than filler for Tynion's event, then that will be a good sign.



*Rule one of Dick Grayson, surely, is that it's important to _give him someone to talk to_.

----------


## Godlike13

> If Babs and Gotham characters are going to be showing up so much and there aren't any Bludhaven characters or villains anybody is really clamoring to see back, it does beg the question of "why not just have him in Gotham, Batman's reach extends to Bludhaven anyway" 
> 
> yeah it's back and will cycle back out again, but knowing it will cycle back out brings a feeling of "spinning the wheels" here.


Cause Gotham’s got enough characters. Bludhaven’s the compromise of having him claim his own space, which fits with the core motivation behind the persona of Nightwing, while still being Batman accessible. They did Nightwing in Gotham, it wasn’t any better. It’s was no more bold or anti-Batman lite. 

If that’s how it seems to you, alright. That stuff is there to make readers feel comfortable again. Something that was needed after Ric. Sure that might not be what everybody wants but it accomplishes that function in a general sense. The important stuff with this run though is the character work, as that’s where the essence here lies. It’s a character piece. Exploring and highlighting the character of Nightwing. Being in Bludhaven isn’t invalidating the character work being done here.

----------


## Rakiduam

> Hopefully Taylor is playing big enough that over the run Dick's decisions can have an impact on the city - this last issue suggested that he might be, but at least it's _possible._For my money, in a lot of ways this Fear State tie-in will be make-or-break - at the moment I'm quite relaxed about, and enjoying, Babs and Tim in the book* because they don't feel like the kind of Bat Interference that felt like it derailed Higgins' run every six months to blow up everything around Dick and wipe out his guest cast while Nightwing got beat up a lot. If Taylor can get through a three issue crossover and make it feel like a Nightwing story set against a Fear State backdrop, rather than filler for Tynion's event, then that will be a good sign. _give him someone to talk to_.


There's no reason to think it's going to be any different to what has been to this point. First it was Barbara, then Tim, now is the Batgirls, then it will be Jason's turn. It's a batfamilly book under a different symbol, why a bad crossover would disturve a, well, bat familly story.

----------


## Iclifton

> That's just not true. Not even the all new missing, sister is something other DC characters haven't had. This Dixon style stories are so weak that nobody has even bother making something outside comics with them. And with Taylor's run, there's jut nothing there 
> but nostalgia. 
> 
> Such average waste of good art.


The Dixon Stories are what established Nightwing as a solo hero. Taylors run has not relied on nostalgia other than taking place in Bludhaven and including one enemy. A ton of new ideas and concepts (the fortune, the sister and Heartless) have been added. 

Taking place in his city does not make him Bat Light. He is taking a different approach to fighting street crime to Bruce, which is a new way to explore the character. He has been in other settings, too bad results. Or do you miss Chicago, New York and Gotham?

His time as a secret agent and Batman are not sustainable status quo`s. As great as they were, they were never going to stick around. In no way is Nightwing just a rip off Batman in this run. Unless all characters who fight street crime are.

The Dick Grayson fanbase just loves to complain when they do not get what they want. Everything is the end of the world and bad for the character. Right now its Bludhaven making him batman light. When Grayson came out, it was because he wasn't Nightwing. The character finally has a solid team and is selling great. But no Bludhaven sucks.

At the end of the day, he IS A BATFAMILY character. So guess what, he will ALWAYS be tied to Batman. No "soaring to new heights" will change that. Accept it. Embrace it. His hook is he is the first Robin all grown up. No other characters fanbase complains like this. 

"We need Miles to soar to new heights so he is not in Peters Shadow".

"We need Connor to soar to new heights so he's not Clarks shadow".

"We need Winter Soldier to get out of Captain Americas shadow".

Why not just focus on getting GOOD stories with solid creative teams. That at the end of the day is what makes characters soar to new heights.

----------


## OBrianTallent

> The Dixon Stories are what established Nightwing a solo hero. Taylors run has not relied on nostalgia other than taking place in Bludhaven and including one enemy. A ton of new ideas and concepts (the fortune, the sister and Heartless) have been added. 
> 
> Taking place in his city does not make him Bat Light. He is taking a different approach to fighting street crime to Bruce, which is a new way to explore the character. He has been in other settings, too bad results. Or do you miss Chicago, New York and Gotham?
> 
> His time as a secret agent and Batman are not sustainable status quo`s. As they great as they were, they were never going to stick around. In no way is Nightwing just a rip off Batman in this run. Unless all characters who fight street crime are.
> 
> The Dick Grayson fanbase just loves to complain when they do not get what they want. Everything is the end of the world and bad for the character. Right now its Bludhaven making him batman light. When Grayson came out, it was because he wasn't Nightwing. The character finally has a solid team and is selling great. But no Bludhaven sucks.


Some people are never pleased.  To say Dixon's stories are "weak" because they have not been adapted is extremely short sighted.  Is that the bar?  To be adapted to something else?   That sets such a  miniscule limit on comics in a way that many then would fall into that "weak" category.  
Some people have to claim that everyone tags Dick Grayson/Nightwing as Batman-lite, when really the only people tagging him as such are the people making the claims.  They see the character as they want to see it and then complain about the vision they create based on their own biases.  

Nightwing the book and the character is more fun and exciting than it has been in many many years.  There's new characters, new villains, storylines and the art is just sublime.

----------


## Iclifton

> Some people are never pleased.  To say Dixon's stories are "weak" because they have not been adapted is extremely short sighted.  Is that the bar?  To be adapted to something else?   That sets such a  miniscule limit on comics in a way that many then would fall into that "weak" category.  
> Some people have to claim that everyone tags Dick Grayson/Nightwing as Batman-lite, when really the only people tagging him as such are the people making the claims.  They see the character as they want to see it and then complain about the vision they create based on their own biases.  
> 
> Nightwing the book and the character is more fun and exciting than it has been in many many years.  There's new characters, new villains, storylines and the art is just sublime.


Perfectly articulated and one hundred percent agreed.

Last year we had Ric Grayson and were begging to get this character saved. This year we got:
- A great creative team on the main book.
- Two Titans books with Dick as the leader.
- Robin and Batman with Jeff Lemire
- And for everyone who missed Seeley, Robins.

----------


## Claude

> There's no reason to think it's going to be any different to what has been to this point. First it was Barbara, then Tim, now is the Batgirls, then it will be Jason's turn. It's a batfamilly book under a different symbol, why a bad crossover would disturve a, well, bat familly story.


Guest appearances by Bat Family members aren't a problem - it makes sense for the people who are important in Dick's life to appear, and I think even the most cynical observer would be hard pressed to argue that Tim's role so far has disrupted the narrative!

(I admit I did think - especially coming out of the Fear State crossover - that the Jason Todd team-up in the Annual was maybe a bit much. But I'm curious - for my money, there's _never_ been a good Nightwing/Red Hood meeting on the page so if Taylor wants to have a crack at one, I'm happy to let him.)

The issue would be if it's _only_ Bat Characters that he meets - which _would_ bug me a little. But the last issue specifically tasked Dick with checking in with Jon Kent, the Titans have already been skirting around the edges with Taylor promising further appearances to come, there was the big Superman scene.... I think the run is just taking it's time playing it's hand fully. Which is fine!


I dunno, call it lowered expectations - but I re-read Humphries' "Nightwing - The Unstoppable" a few weeks back. And Sam Humphries is a good writer, the art team is stellar (Bernard Chang! Jamal Campbell before he became A Big Deal!), it makes an effort to build Dick's connection with Bludhaven, introduce new characters, build a new villain with a retroactive history with Dick. All good things going for it - but it just felt so small and insular. Lot's of "Robin was really when I was angsty", Dick feeling like he wasn't good enough and worried he wouldn't be allowed to be Robin, Dick haunted by mistakes, and a "civilian life" where we're meant to be invested in his inability to run the cross-fit gym he's used the last of his savings buying. 
(And a comedy "Dick pretends to be a stripper" bit aimed at the internet/panels to be posted without context for LOLs _at least_ as cynically as Taylor's playing to the memes).

Even though the first six issues might not be as fast paced as they could have been, what we have now is _so_ much better - both in terms of quality of comic, and in terms of the stature and dignity of Nightwing as a character.


But, you know, meet me here six issues after Fear State and if Dick's still fighting Blockbuster on rooftops because of a tip he got from Duke Thomas who was just passing by, and I'll be right with you!

----------


## Wingin' It

> Some people are never pleased.  To say Dixon's stories are "weak" because they have not been adapted is extremely short sighted.  Is that the bar?  To be adapted to something else?   That sets such a  miniscule limit on comics in a way that many then would fall into that "weak" category.  
> Some people have to claim that everyone tags Dick Grayson/Nightwing as Batman-lite, when really the only people tagging him as such are the people making the claims.  They see the character as they want to see it and then complain about the vision they create based on their own biases.  
> 
> Nightwing the book and the character is more fun and exciting than it has been in many many years.  There's new characters, new villains, storylines and the art is just sublime.


I agree completely. This thread is never pleased. People complained when they tried a new direction a la Grayson, people complain when writers try to elaborate on Bludhaven. I just think NW fans are diametrically opposed on what they want to see done with the character.

The truth is, DC is putting faith in this character again, giving him a high-profile creative team, and a ton of other upcoming showings in other books. Trying to argue that Dick defending his own city is "going in circles" is so silly to me; you wouldn't say this about Batman, or the Flash, or any other city-based hero.

This book has gotten more attention and fans to the character via the comics in years. It's not perfect but it's clear that Tom is enjoying the story he is telling, and hell so do I. 

I also don't understand the critique that this is becoming a "Batfamily" book due to Babs, guest appearances from Tim, and an upcoming Jason team-up. Isn't Dick supposed to be the defacto second in command after Bruce? It makes sense that memebers of the Batfamily feature, wether that be to assist on a case, or in a mentorship capacity, or as a friend. And frankly, a lot of fans have been asking for a closer knit batfam for a while, if only because after the New52 and Rebirth, a lot of these relationships felt underdeveloped and threadbare because DC was trying to say, tell us that Dick and Tim have years of history, expecting readers to channel the old continuity in order to care, rather than showing us. Oracle, Tim, Huntress, etc., are often mainstays of the Batman book, but you don't see this complaint...oh wait, yes we do xD I guess the family is either take it or leave it for some. Anyway, it's not like Taylor isn't building up a Bludhaven specific cast: he is reintroducing some characters while inventing new ones. I think it's a good mix, personally. 

My last point is this. I love the teen titans. I grew up watching the series, that was my first introduction to Robin (Dick Grayson) as a character, and I've enjoyed a lot of the comics as well. The Titans are some of my favorite characters that DC offers. However. What has being on Titans done for Dick Grayson's character in the last couple decades? Really, can anyone name ANYTHING positive for Dick's character in the comics that has resulted from being a part of or leading that team? Because to my memory, it's just been Dick going into hardass leader mode, not even feeling remotely like how he does in his solo, Dick and Kory teasing/sexy time that goes no where because DC has truly no interest in pursuing that relationship seriously, Dick having his leadership come into question by teammates, and unnecessary drama/character death. They've been trying since the 90s to reshape that property in the comics to middling success and honestly, I think it's well time enough that Dick moved on. They need him more than the other way around.

Anyway, those are my rambling thoughts tonight. I like Nightwing, I like his book, and I think it bodes well for the character.

----------


## Restingvoice

> Why not just focus on getting GOOD stories with solid creative teams. That at the end of the day is what makes characters soar to new heights.


Nah. DC don't give a **** about good stories. They care about what sells, which usually coincide with good stories, but not always. Make money, soar to new heights. Don't matter what the cause or if it alters people perception on the character. Example: Injustice. Bad Wonder Woman portrayal, gets a movie.  

But about Bludhaven

Bludhaven's effectiveness depends on how creative the team is and what's allowed. 

The Dixonverse didn't allow Titans because they want to keep the Bat fam books the same tone, more realistic, the whole line was rooted in Miller who kicked off the dark, gritty, realistic look for Batman and DC pattern their Bat fam stories following that. So it's not a place for Dick to have a large connection to the superhero verse. When they have crossover, everyone can attend and it makes sense.

At the same time, they benefit from not having Didio trying to blow things up once a year, so they manage to establish the Bat fam and that 90s tone much longer. 

These days, after Morrison and Snyder's success, DC is allowing more bright colorful superhero stuffs, but they suffer from Didio's habit of wanting events or controversy. When they have a crossover, even when Dick is away in Chicago or London, he'll be pulled back in. It doesn't matter if it's Bludhaven or not. 

In Bludhaven itself, the limitations told Seeley for example was to focus more on Bludhaven, but when he left, and subsequent stories focus more on Bludhaven the book sales go down faster because there's too many creative team switch.  

I have not yet seen a Bludhaven that's not limited by editorial wanting the Bat fam to be a certain tone and not limited by interrupting events at the same time. Like I don't know what the current editorial team is like. 

What I know is this. Dick has his own city and his own villains. He should not be in Gotham when there's a crossover. Detective Comics even pointed out that villain in Bludhaven can flourish because he's called back to Gotham often. 

So either he should not be called back to Gotham, or he needs to establish a large or effective enough supporting cast in Bludhaven to take care of the city while he's gone to Gotham. Right now though, it's Bat fam members, so they all return to Gotham. 

So right now (the Nightwing status quo, not just Bludhaven itself) it's not good enough. Again, this is not about Taylor, but what they allow Nightwing to do or to be.

Yet.  

All they need to do is the moment crossover comes, Dick calls in the Titans to guard Bludhaven while he leaves. Just like when Bruce leaves Gotham he asked Clark to swoop in every once in a while to make sure Dick Robin's fine.

That first. After that, we can talk about repeating status quo, since there's a lot to unpack there after Nightwing changed hands from Dixon to Grayson and then Didio blew them up, until 20 years later here we are with Seeley, Humphries, Percy, Lobdell, Jurgens and Taylor

----------


## Rakiduam

> The Dixon Stories are what established Nightwing as a solo hero. Taylors run has not relied on nostalgia other than taking place in Bludhaven and including one enemy. A ton of new ideas and concepts (the fortune, the sister and Heartless) have been added.


I had to laugh, you think the fortune, the sister and Heartless are new concept? C'mon. Dick has lost fortunes beore, has fond unknown familly is not new, not even for Dick and every new character came up with a new vellian that never get mentioned again.




> At the end of the day, he IS A BATFAMILY character. So guess what, he will ALWAYS be tied to Batman. No "soaring to new heights" will change that. Accept it. Embrace it. His hook is he is the first Robin all grown.


Sure, by Dixon's tradicion that is all he is, he is part of a set, doesn't have friends, hasn't ever really love anyone that isn't a Bat and only knows what Batman teached him.

That's just so sad, and after 30 years to get back to such a low. Even if you like it, why would anyone want to get back to the starting point, that's absurde.




> Why not just focus on getting GOOD stories with solid creative teams. That at the end of the day is what makes characters soar to new heights.


I would love read good stories, I don't need new highs I'm ok with fun Nightwing's stories. This is not that. And you are kidding yourself if you think "same old" is soaring anywhere.

----------


## Iclifton

> Nah. DC don't give a **** about good stories. They care about what sells, which usually coincide with good stories, but not always. Make money, soar to new heights. Don't matter what the cause or if it alters people perception on the character. Example: Injustice. Bad Wonder Woman portrayal, gets a movie.  
> 
> But about Bludhaven
> 
> Bludhaven's effectiveness depends on how creative the team is and what's allowed. The Dixonverse didn't allow Titans because they want to keep the Bat fam books the same tone, more realistic, the whole line was rooted in Miller who kicked off the dark, gritty, realistic look for Batman and DC pattern their Bat fam stories following that. So it's not a place for Dick to have a large connection to the superhero verse. At the same time, they benefit from not having Didio trying to blow things up once a year, so they manage to establish the Bat fam and that 90s tone much longer. 
> 
> These days, after Morrison and Snyder's success, DC is allowing more bright colorful superhero stuffs, but they suffer from Didio's habit of wanting events or controversy. Seeley for example was told to focus more on Bludhaven, but when he left, and subsequent stories focus more on Bludhaven but too many creative team switch, the book sales go down faster. 
> 
> I have not yet seen a Bludhaven that's not limited by editorial wanting the Bat fam to be a certain tone and not limited by interrupting events at the same time. Like I don't know what the current editorial team is like. 
> ...


DC might not, but as fans who read the stories, we should. We are getting A list teams which is what matters.

Nightwing will always participate in Batfamily crossovers. He is Batfamily. So it sounds like that quote from Detective Comics is more a problem for that book. Him being involved is never going to change. The Bat family are a family. It makes sense they visit Bludhaven. Especially since they have not been disruptive to the story and do not have books of their own. The only thing Taylor needs to focus on is delivering a good book every month. That`s it.

----------


## Iclifton

> I had to laugh, you think the fortune, the sister and Heartless are new concept? C'mon. Dick has lost fortunes beore, has fond unknown familly is not new, not even for Dick and every new character came up with a new vellian that never get mentioned again.
> 
> 
> Sure, by Dixon's tradicion that is all he is, he is part of a set, doesn't have friends, hasn't ever really love anyone that isn't a Bat and only knows what Batman teached him.
> 
> That's just so sad, and after 30 years to get back to such a low. Even if you like it, why would anyone want to get back to the starting point, that's absurde.
> 
> 
> 
> I would love read good stories, I don't need new highs I'm ok with fun Nightwing's stories. This is not that. And you are kidding yourself if you think "same old" is soaring anywhere.


But its not the same old. Of course every plot has been done before to some degree. It is about doing them in new ways. Has it ever been explored how Dick may fight crime differently if he had the wealth that Bruce had? No.

Heartless? We do not know enough to say he is redundant. What we know is he was created specifically to challenge Dick.

The sister? Again, yes this is new to for Dick to have a sister with mob connections. Again, maybe not new to the medium but new to Dick. The idea of the run is to deliver character work and moments. Which it has done and done well. Being in Bludhaven is not starting over. It is his baseline status quo. Like Bruce and Gotham.

----------


## Restingvoice

> DC might not, but as fans who read the stories, we should. We are getting A list teams which is what matters.
> 
> Nightwing will always participate in Batfamily crossovers. He is Batfamily. So it sounds like that quote from Detective Comics is more a problem for that book. Him being involved is never going to change. The Bat family are a family. It makes sense they visit Bludhaven. Especially since they have not been disruptive to the story and do not have books of their own. The only thing Taylor needs to focus on is delivering a good book every month. That`s it.


Fans do care about good stories, that's why there's criticism on Taylor's work.

Why? Why can't it changed? Like I said, he has his own responsibility. I'm not saying he can't go to Gotham, I'm saying he shouldn't when he has his own villains taking hearts literally from people. You want good story? I want good story too. That means make it make sense. Why should he go to Gotham instead of finding Heartless? Why can't it just be Barbara and Tim and have them show up in Batman and Detective?

These books don't exist on their own. They're part of a family book, and all these authors under the same editorial know where the stories are gonna go. That means if they know that Dick's gonna be required to go to Gotham, then they shouldn't take their time and arrest Heartless _before_ Dick has to go back to Gotham.

----------


## Iclifton

> Fans do care about good stories, that's why there's criticism on Taylor's work.
> 
> Why? Why can't it changed? Like I said, he has his own responsibility. I'm not saying he can't go to Gotham, I'm saying he shouldn't when he has his own villains taking hearts literally from people. You want good story? I want good story too. That means make it make sense. Why should he go to Gotham instead of finding Heartless? Why can't it just be Barbara and Tim and have them show up in Batman and Detective?
> 
> These books don't exist on their own. They're part of a family book, and all these authors under the same editorial know where the stories are gonna go. That means if they know that Dick's gonna be required to go to Gotham, then they shouldn't take their time and arrest Heartless _before_ Dick has to go back to Gotham.


Why does Bruce work with the Justice League when he has a case? Because thats the nature of comics. The reviews and feedback for this run has been overwhelmingly positive. The thing is, most(not all) who do not like this run whatsoever, do not like it strictly because it is set in Bludhaven or because Dick is a Batfamily member. It will never change, because like it or not that's the appeal. His history, the legacy of being the full grown first Robin. He will always be batfamily. Always and forever. No chance this will change. This just goes to show goes to show that many of the haters expectations are completely unrealistic. 

The guy  has TWO amazing teams (Robin and Batman, Nightwing) and is in a ton of books. DC is putting a ton behind Nightwing comic wise. How this is not a positive time for the brand is beyond me.

----------


## Rac7d*

> Cause Gothams got enough characters. Bludhavens the compromise of having him claim his own space, which fits with the core motivation behind the persona of Nightwing, while still being Batman accessible. They did Nightwing in Gotham, it wasnt any better. Its was no more bold or anti-Batman lite. 
> 
> If thats how it seems to you, alright. That stuff is there to make readers feel comfortable again. Something that was needed after Ric. Sure that might not be what everybody wants but it accomplishes that function in a general sense. The important stuff with this run though is the character work, as thats where the essence here lies. Its a character piece. Exploring and highlighting the character of Nightwing. Being in Bludhaven isnt invalidating the character work being done here.


Gotham has an abundance of heroes  some of them should be bleeding though to Bludhaven.
To think that as many  as 15  heroes are deployed in Gotham, not counting Im between types like Harley and Catwoman

----------


## Restingvoice

> Why does Bruce work with the Justice League when he has a case? Because thats the nature of comics. The reviews and feedback for this run has been overwhelmingly positive. The thing is, most(not all) who do not like this run whatsoever, do not like it strictly because it is set in Bludhaven or because Dick is a Batfamily member. It will never change, because like it or not that's the appeal. His history, the legacy of being the full grown first Robin. He will always be batfamily. Always and forever. No chance this will change. This just goes to show goes to show that many of the haters expectations are completely unrealistic. 
> 
> The guy  has TWO amazing teams (Robin and Batman, Nightwing) and is in a ton of books. DC is putting a ton behind Nightwing comic wise. How this is not a positive time for the brand is beyond me.


Batman and League are not made to crossovers and they are not made to have to follow the other's story, so I can arrange them to happen before or after and not at the same time, and even if they do, Batman has enough army in Gotham to make it believable that he can leave and Gotham will be fine. As fine as Gotham can be anyway. Especially since the League has a teleporter. 

On top of that the League problem tend to be worldwide so there's priority, while Gotham and Bludhaven are both cities. One is not more important than the other. 

I also already pointed out that I want someone in Bludhaven that is not a Bat fam, because they will be called to crossover as well, to make it believable that Nightwing can leave... or a scene where he calls Titans.

----------


## Iclifton

> Batman and League are not made to crossovers and they are not made to have to follow the other's story, so I can arrange them to happen before or after and not at the same time, and even if they do, Batman has enough army in Gotham to make it believable that he can leave and Gotham will be fine. Especially since the League has a teleporter. On top of that the League problem tend to be worldwide so there's priority, while Gotham and Bludhaven are both cities. One is not more important than the other. 
> 
> I also already pointed out that I want someone in Bludhaven that is not a Bat fam, because they will be called to crossover as well, to make it believable that Nightwing can leave... or a scene where he calls Titans.


Yes but at the end of the day batman is in more books than Nightwing and he is Batfamily so it is plausible he would help. In story he is going to spend one night in Gotham to help with an emergency. Should he have said "no, sorry I cant help you guys today. I am busy searching for a guy I have no leads on and have only seen once. Sucks people might die in Gotham but hey, not my city." This is a ridiculous complaint. I am bummed we are spending three issues on this, yes. But it does not reflect badly on Dick. I'm sure in story there are a ton of loose villains in Gotham Bruce knows about while helping the League. So what your saying is your mad because this crossover does not play into your headcanon the way other characters crossovers do.

Nightwing fans are more critical than any other fan base I have ever seen. Some of the weakest and most nitpicky complaints. If Bruce himself were held to these standards, every story would suck. DC can do no right short of retiring Batman and having Nightwing  be the face of the company.

----------


## Daedalus

This is a weird discussion. Bludhaven is what, 20 minutes away from Gotham? It's basically a suburb in the same metropolitan area. It's the Jersey City of DC Comics. This is made clear by the ease with which the Batfamily crosses over between them. 

Dick Grayson is a part of the Batfamily and Batman's cast of characters, and shall always be. He is an extremely important character in that cast, but he'll always operate within that cast of characters. Every comicbook character has a cast of supporting characters, and they're integral to the book as well. I don't hear the people in the Superman forums asking to kill off Lois Lane.

It doesn't matter that he'll spend 3 issues on the yearly-mandatory Batevent, as long as he comes back to good stories. And it seems that Nightwing's portion of the Fear State story will be contained within Nightwing's title, which is a best possible scenario.

I think we can all agree that this is an A-list Team industry-wise, and that both reviews and sales have been stellar. Nightwing is more prominent in comicbooks than he has been in years. Yes, it features classic supporting characters in a classic location. So do 99% of comicbook runs, including some of the most acclaimed stories of all time. 

I'm sorry for those who are not enjoying the run. I'm having a blast.

----------


## Rac7d*

> This is a weird discussion. Bludhaven is what, 20 minutes away from Gotham? It's basically a suburb in the same metropolitan area. It's the Jersey City of DC Comics. This is made clear by the ease with which the Batfamily crosses over between them. 
> 
> Dick Grayson is a part of the Batfamily and Batman's cast of characters, and shall always be. He is an extremely important character in that cast, but he'll always operate within that cast of characters. Every comicbook character has a cast of supporting characters, and they're integral to the book as well. I don't hear the people in the Superman forums asking to kill off Lois Lane.
> 
> It doesn't matter that he'll spend 3 issues on the yearly-mandatory Batevent, as long as he comes back to good stories. And it seems that Nightwing's portion of the Fear State story will be contained within Nightwing's title, which is a best possible scenario.
> 
> I think we can all agree that this is an A-list Team industry-wise, and that both reviews and sales have been stellar. Nightwing is more prominent in comicbooks than he has been in years. Yes, it features classic supporting characters in a classic location. So do 99% of comicbook runs, including some of the most acclaimed stories of all time. 
> *
> I'm sorry for those who are not enjoying the run. I'm having a blast*.


That is what matter, the book is well recevied and performing well all with a prioritized top notch writer

Which must be frustrating to those who wanted  change since everything as of right now will prevent that.

anyway

----------


## Restingvoice

> Yes but at the end of the day batman is in more books than Nightwing and he is Batfamily so it is plausible he would help. In story he is going to spend one night in Gotham to help with an emergency. Should he have said "no, sorry I cant help you guys today. I am busy searching for a guy I have no leads on and have only seen once. Sucks people might die in Gotham but hey, not my city." This is a ridiculous complaint. I am bummed we are spending three issues on this, yes. But it does not reflect badly on Dick. I'm sure in story there are a ton of loose villains in Gotham Bruce knows about while helping the League. So what your saying is your mad because this crossover does not play into your headcanon the way other characters crossovers do.
> 
> Nightwing fans are more critical than any other fan base I have ever seen. Some of the weakest and most nitpicky complaints. If Bruce himself were held to these standards, every story would suck. DC can do no right short of retiring Batman and having Nightwing  be the face of the company.


Sucks that people die in Bludhaven so him going to Gotham when it has already so many heroes is a ridiculous defense. 
It is ridiculous that he can't stay in his own city, protecting the city he wants to protect, when there's Babs and Tim that can go to Gotham or already in Gotham.

It's so much simpler than that. You're asking why people can't enjoy the run, I gave you a reason why, I even gave a solution, because the answer is that simple. 




> This is a weird discussion. Bludhaven is what, 20 minutes away from Gotham? It's basically a suburb in the same metropolitan area. It's the Jersey City of DC Comics. This is made clear by the ease with which the Batfamily crosses over between them. 
> 
> Dick Grayson is a part of the Batfamily and Batman's cast of characters, and shall always be. He is an extremely important character in that cast, but he'll always operate within that cast of characters. Every comicbook character has a cast of supporting characters, and they're integral to the book as well. I don't hear the people in the Superman forums asking to kill off Lois Lane.
> 
> It doesn't matter that he'll spend 3 issues on the yearly-mandatory Batevent, as long as he comes back to good stories. And it seems that Nightwing's portion of the Fear State story will be contained within Nightwing's title, which is a best possible scenario.
> 
> I think we can all agree that this is an A-list Team industry-wise, and that both reviews and sales have been stellar. Nightwing is more prominent in comicbooks than he has been in years. Yes, it features classic supporting characters in a classic location. So do 99% of comicbook runs, including some of the most acclaimed stories of all time. 
> 
> I'm sorry for those who are not enjoying the run. I'm having a blast.


No, this is a justified discussion because if you want me to enjoy the story, it needs to be immersive. It's not for me, at least for that particular point. 

and both of you repeating the same "it's bat family so it should cross" 
Marketing, fine, which is why, I said it again. All I want is simple. Really simple I said it three times already. 

If he has to be in a crossover:

Either finish the story before going into a crossover
or
Have somebody else, preferably native Bludhaven hero because then they won't be pulled into a Bat crossover, so the city can be in good hands, or at least believable enough, to me, the reader trying to enjoy the story, that it's guarded. 

That's it. If there's one panel at the beginning of crossover where Oracle have Donna or someone patrolling Bludhaven while Dick leaves, then it's problem solved for me. 

This is why I have no problem with Seeley's first story before going over to Night of Monster Men, because he finished his first arc. 

==

Also why are you trying to justify it by Bludhaven being in close proximity with Gotham? If that's the case, why even move to Bludhaven? Just stay in Gotham. Then I don't have to suspend my disbelief.

===

Also also, Idk about Nightwing fans, but I personally quit reading Action Comics, Justice League, and Aquaman after just 6-12 issues because they can't keep things consistent, so you just happen to the talking to the wrong person if you want someone to be satisfied with "just good stories" (which I assume to mean each series on its) 

I can't do that

They're selling me shared universe, I'm viewing it as shared universe

----------


## Lal

I have an alternative solution -

Let the bat-editors use Nightwing in the event any way they want, as long as they leave his book out of it.

So let him appear in the event with the batgirls, lead the Robins, whatever. Do it in Urban legends or Tec, or anywhere else they want, and I'll read it as long as he's given a cool role, but let me also enjoy his book in peace and without interruptions.

We can always say that the event was just before / later/ whatever, and after the event is over it could still affect his books (if Batman is leaving Gotham or if Dick is facing his love to Babs or whatever).

----------


## Godlike13

Nightwing doesn’t sell enough to be left out of crossovers. It’s one of the few ways they can stem deflation for a couple months and inject sales into books. If they couldn’t make that crossover nut with Ric Nightwing wouldn’t have even made it to Taylor. And that goes for most of the Batline. It’s why Batman has a line and a lot of fan favorite wouldn’t have books if not so the can do crossovers with them and make that crossover nut. That’s Christmas time for DC and comics shops. You guys can be annoyed by crossovers, but no one here should be so unfamiliar with the workings. Crossovers are the readers fault. A marketing tool DC pretty much has to use because it’s a proven way they can generate sales.

----------


## Lal

> Nightwing doesnt sell enough to be left out of crossovers. Its one of the few ways they can stem deflation for a couple months and inject sales into books. If they couldnt make that crossover nut with Ric Nightwing wouldnt have even made it to Taylor. You guys can be annoyed by crossovers, but no one here should be so unfamiliar with the workings. Crossovers are the readers fault. A marketing tool DC pretty much has to use because its a proven way they can generate sales.


Overall, I would agree with you (especially regarding the Ric saga and the Joker war event). But Nightwing currently does sell enough to avoid crossovers. He sells more than Robin, who was left out of this crossover (or so it seems).

Don't get me wrong, I do want to see Nightwing in Gotham and interacting with the batfamily. That's actually how I came to know him - in Batman's book. But since this event doesn't really demand readers to actually read the Nightwing subplot to understand what is going on (it's not like it's part 4 of 6, with the rest being told in different books), would it really boost sales? We'll find out.

Right now it seems that Harley and Catwoman need this event more than Nightwing.

----------


## Godlike13

Except is doesn’t. Remember Nightwing was selling like shit. They didn’t know how well Taylor’s run was gonna do, and even still unless Nightwing is selling on par with Batman. They are leaving money on the table by having him avoid it. Robin wasn’t left out because of sales, if I had to guess it was left out because of its later start. Personally speaking I don’t care if Nightwing is in Gotham and as we are seeing he doesn’t need a crossover to interact with the batfamily. What’s more I don’t even think Fear State seems like an interesting story. But I want a Nightwing series, and I hold no illusions on how Nightwing performs in the market and the necessities needed to keep the lights on.

----------


## Aahz

> Robin wasnt left out because of sales, if I had to guess it was left out because of its later start.


It might also be because they had green lit a Storyline for Robin, that doesn't really allow him to show up for a cross over in Gotham.

"Grayson" was iirc also left out of some crossovers.

With Nightwing on the other hand it is not that much of a problem story wise, what Taylor is anyway taking a lot of time to tell his story, and there he has anyway constantly other Batfamily characters as guest in his book.

----------


## Lal

> Except is doesn’t. Remember Nightwing was selling like shit. They didn’t know how well Taylor’s run was gonna do, and even still unless Nightwing is selling on par with Batman. They are leaving money on the table by having him avoid it. Robin wasn’t left out because of sales, if I had to guess it was left out because of its later start. Personally speaking I don’t care if Nightwing is in Gotham and as we are seeing he doesn’t need a crossover to interact with the batfamily. What’s more I don’t even think Fear State seems like an interesting story. But I want a Nightwing series, and I hold no illusions on how Nightwing performs in the market and the necessities needed to keep the lights on.


Well, first, Robin started in April, Nightwing started in March. It's a one-month headstart, unlikely to explain why Robin isn't in the event and Nightwing is.

But do events really improve sales so much? Not sure, let's look at the data.

Since it's tricky to look at Nightwing last year (as he was involved in the event from issue 70 or so), let's look at Catwoman instead, prior to the event.

June 2020 - issue 22 - number 37 in sales, with an order index of 70 compared to comichorn's order index.
July 2020 - issue 23 - number 43 in sales, with an order index of 103.
August 2020 - issue 24 - number 65 in sales, with an order index of 69.
September 2020 - issue 25, finally the great tie-in with the joker war event! - number 56 in sales, an average of about *33,000* books sold.
October 2020 - issue 26 - not really a tie-in book (although influenced by what happened in the event), number 32 in sales - an average of 47,000 books sold.

So... do we really need an event to sell a total of 33,000 copies? Am I missing something? Or is it possible that tie-ins that don't really affect the main story don't sell as much as tie-ins that are crucial to understanding the main plot?

----------


## Godlike13

Well 25 and 26 were both collateral damage tie ins, but note the dollar rank difference between August and September. Tie-ins sell. Events are an important part of the Bat line operations, and a proven way to increase sales. Why do you think they'd do them if it didn't work.

----------


## Lal

The issue cost more (25-anniversary issue), but it doesn't seem like it sold more copies.

I'm actually baffled by those numbers and agree it doesn't make much sense to do events if they don't lead to an increase in sales, so apparently, in some cases they do. Probably if the side story is very relevant to the main plotline. 
It seems that the Joker event improved batgirl sales, for example, though that could also be because the books were marketed as some kind of correction to the event of the killing joke.

Anyway, we'll see in a few months if the event really improved Nightwing's sales. 
If the event is supposed to introduce Nightwing to new readers, it sucks that Redondo won't be the main artist.

----------


## Godlike13

The unit rank was also higher. Events are a well proven sales technique. Oh, and with Nightwing his event tie-in started in March. Sold out too. https://www.cbr.com/nightwing-70-eba...igh-punchline/

----------


## Konja7

> So... do we really need an event to sell a total of 33,000 copies? Am I missing something? Or is it possible that tie-ins that don't really affect the main story don't sell as much as tie-ins that are crucial to understanding the main plot?


I've seen an increase of sales with Tie-ins that don't affect the main plot. 

Catwoman 25 and 26 were Collateral Damage tie-ins. The difference seems to be due to the dollar rank.

----------


## Lal

> The unit rank was also higher. Events are a well proven sales technique. Oh, and with Nightwing his event tie-in started in March. Sold out too. https://www.cbr.com/nightwing-70-eba...igh-punchline/


I specifically didn't mention the Nightwing books because of the entire Ric Grayson saga. The sales were already incredibly low and most readers abandoned the book. Even with absolutely no event, if there was an arc of Dick getting his memory back, the book sales would have improved. 

The unit rank of Catwoman was higher in June and July than during the tie-in in September (let me remind you that issue 25 was collected in the Joker war saga, so it was a formal tie-in, issue 26 was not an official part of the Joker war saga). So again, Catwoman 25's sales aren't convincing that events improve sales. Maybe Catwoman 26, but it's not even a tie-in. It's the collateral damage book.

Or am I missing something else here?

Again, I'm not saying that events never improve sales. I'm saying that events don't *automatically* improve sales. Readers bought Catwoman 26 because they wanted to know how the events of the Joker war affected Catwoman. They didn't buy Catwoman 25 just because it was a "formal" part of the event.

----------


## Konja7

> Again, I'm not saying that events never improve sales. I'm saying that events don't *automatically* improve sales. Readers bought Catwoman 26 because they wanted to know how the events of the Joker war affected Catwoman. They didn't buy Catwoman 25 just because it was a "formal" part of the event.


Events automatically improve sales, because the comic is bought by people who don't regularly buy it (at least, collectors).

It's more likely there are other reasons why Catwoman 25 seems to sell worse than Catwoman 26.

----------


## Daedalus

> No, this is a justified discussion because if you want me to enjoy the story, it needs to be immersive. It's not for me, at least for that particular point.
> 
> and both of you repeating the same "it's bat family so it should cross"
> Marketing, fine, which is why, I said it again. All I want is simple. Really simple I said it three times already.
> 
> If he has to be in a crossover:
> 
> Either finish the story before going into a crossover
> or
> Have somebody else, preferably native Bludhaven hero because then they won't be pulled into a Bat crossover, so the city can be in good hands, or at least believable enough, to me, the reader trying to enjoy the story, that it's guarded.


If your concern is immersion/verisimilitude, why would the villains coordinate their attacks? Heartless is attacking the poor and homeless in Bludhaven. Dick has no idea where he is.

Nearby, Scarecrow is attacking Gotham. Should Dick answer: "Sorry guys - waiting around for some clues about this Heartless dude. Don't care about Crane right now."

Dick will save people where he can, when he can. Scarecrow and the Magistrate won't wait around for Heartless to do whatever it is he is doing. And Dick can't really do anything about Heartless at the moment anyway.

A life in Gotham is worth just as much as a life in Bludhaven, and Dick saw an emergency in Gotham and will help out there. 




> Also why are you trying to justify it by Bludhaven being in close proximity with Gotham? If that's the case, why even move to Bludhaven? Just stay in Gotham. Then I don't have to suspend my disbelief.


I'm not trying to justify anything, I'm simply telling you that Bludhaven is very close to Gotham within the DC Universe, because you seemed to think it was farther away. To illustrate, I used an analogy of how close Jersey City is to New York City. If you've never been, they're essentially the same city, in two different states, crossed by a river (though New Yorkers would never see it as the same city due to some cultural identity). Gothamites go to Bludhaven in a span of minutes, and they're back within minutes too. This is also not new to Taylor's run, it has been the case since at least the mid-2000s.

Story-wise, it gives Nightwing some space to have his stories separately from Bruce, while simultaneously keeping him solidly immersed in the Bat-corner of the DC Universe to show up as needed. This is a common trope in comics - see Daredevil and Hell's Kitchen, for example. He operates within a neighborhood of New York, a city crowded with superpowered heroes in the Marvel Universe, and helps out in larger events. 

Are there inconsistencies in the continuity? Yes - there are so, so many. But Nightwing helping out in Gotham isn't really a continuity issue.

----------


## Iclifton

> Sucks that people die in Bludhaven so him going to Gotham when it has already so many heroes is a ridiculous defense. 
> It is ridiculous that he can't stay in his own city, protecting the city he wants to protect, when there's Babs and Tim that can go to Gotham or already in Gotham.
> 
> It's so much simpler than that. You're asking why people can't enjoy the run, I gave you a reason why, I even gave a solution, because the answer is that simple. 
> 
> 
> 
> No, this is a justified discussion because if you want me to enjoy the story, it needs to be immersive. It's not for me, at least for that particular point. 
> 
> ...


No, this argument is not justified, it’s out of touch with reality. With complaints like these prepare to complain for the rest of the characters publishing  future and to drop a lot more books.

Taylor does not need to give lip service or introduce a new character to justify your head canon. This crossover is coming at the end of an arc and in story is one night. He’s not leaving Bludhaven for a month. He’s got no leads and his family is dealing with a huge crisis where many lives will be lost. Him not going would make him look terrible in story. 

We have already discussed why Bludhaven is close to Gotham. So he has his own area and can also participate in Gotham if need be. Crossovers serve a dual function. They get more eyes on Nightwjng and Nightwing promotes other books. I keep repeating he is Batfamily because he is and always will be. As long as that’s true he will always be expected to participate. This will NEVER change.

Would i prefer to be dealing with Taylor’s main story the next three months? Sure. But this crossover in no way invalidates the last six issues.

----------


## Godlike13

> I specifically didn't mention the Nightwing books because of the entire Ric Grayson saga. The sales were already incredibly low and most readers abandoned the book. Even with absolutely no event, if there was an arc of Dick getting his memory back, the book sales would have improved. 
> 
> The unit rank of Catwoman was higher in June and July than during the tie-in in September (let me remind you that issue 25 was collected in the Joker war saga, so it was a formal tie-in, issue 26 was not an official part of the Joker war saga). So again, Catwoman 25's sales aren't convincing that events improve sales. Maybe Catwoman 26, but it's not even a tie-in. It's the collateral damage book.
> 
> Or am I missing something else here?
> 
> Again, I'm not saying that events never improve sales. I'm saying that events don't *automatically* improve sales. Readers bought Catwoman 26 because they wanted to know how the events of the Joker war affected Catwoman. They didn't buy Catwoman 25 just because it was a "formal" part of the event.


All the Joker War tie-in were called "collateral damage". Events automatically improve sales. Even during a pandemic. Shops ordered more of Catwoman 25 at a higher price, and 26 because it was also marketed as a tie in on top of variants. Nightwing, Batgirl, RHatO, Tec, Catwoman, Harley Quinn all saw bumps. Nightwing 75 was Nightwing's Anniversary issue, Catwoman 26 out ranked it. The event before Joker War, same thing.

----------


## Lal

> All the Joker War tie-in were called "collateral damage". Events automatically improve sales. Even during a pandemic. Shops ordered more of Catwoman 25 at a higher price, and 26 because it was also marketed as a tie in on top of variants. Nightwing, Batgirl, RHatO, Tec, Catwoman, Harley Quinn all saw bumps. Nightwing 75 was Nightwing's Anniversary issue, Catwoman 26 out ranked it. The event before Joker War, same thing.


Even if all the batfamily books were called "collateral damage", some issues were marketed as essential tie-ins (all the ones that were collected in the Joker war saga book), and some issues were just affected by the event but weren't part of the main story. Catwoman 26, which was again, not a real part of the event but a follow-up story, sold much better than issue 25, which was a main part. That's the data, unless again we're missing something here.

But anyway, this argument is super redundant. Clearly, DC believes that this event would improve sales. We'll see in 2 months how much Nightwing sales were affected by it. It would be nice if the event would attract new readers.

I do hope the art would be decent. Robbi Rodriguez's art in Batgirl wasn't the best, and I know that some people won't buy books that he draws after all the controversy.

----------


## Iclifton

> Even if all the batfamily books were called "collateral damage", some issues were marketed as essential tie-ins (all the ones that were collected in the Joker war saga book), and some issues were just affected by the event but weren't part of the main story. Catwoman 26, which was again, not a real part of the event but a follow-up story, sold much better than issue 25, which was a main part. That's the data, unless again we're missing something here.
> 
> But anyway, this argument is super redundant. Clearly, DC believes that this event would improve sales. We'll see in 2 months how much Nightwing sales were affected by it. It would be nice if the event would attract new readers.
> 
> I do hope the art would be decent. Robbi Rodriguez's art in Batgirl wasn't the best, and I know that some people won't buy books that he draws after all the controversy.


Well based on history, they do. Your using an example of one issue of one series in one crossover as your sample size. Even if every participants sales in that one particular crossover were not improved, that would not be an accurate summation of how crossovers impact sales. (BTW had that crossover not happened, issue 26`s sales would not have went up).

Lets look at every crossover. Sales are typically higher across the line as people follow the crossover. Odds are in favor of increased sales based on the historic data.

----------


## Ascended

> Like I said, people just want their exact cocktail of plot elements for Nightwing and if they don`t get it, the direction sucks.


To a point that fits some wingnuts, sure.

But a lot of us, especially the long time readers who've been through all the up's and down's and lived through all of Didio's attempts to destroy the character, have plenty of reason to resist the idea of Dick being too tightly tied to Gotham and Bruce. Because those things were used for years as an excuse to pull the rug out from under Dick as a solo property. 

It's not the idea of Dick getting roped into a Bat event, it's the idea that the Bat event will unravel all of the work in Dick's own book and force Dick to forever play second fiddle to someone, even in his own title where he's supposed to be the star (Percy had years' worth of story to tell, and it got ruined because King wanted to shoot Dick in Bruce's book). It's not Dick still having close ties to Gotham, it's that this is used as an excuse for writers to not bother developing Dick's own unique supporting cast, and dumping all of them as soon as a new writer walks in (the last time Dick had a steady supporting mythos was before Bludhaven was blown up, way back in 06, and ever since then each new creator ignores what came before and starts over, erasing any chance of these new elements to gain traction and elevate the title).

Dick is a Bat, and a major character hook is the fact that he was once Robin. Those are great things that Nightwing fans like. Most of us are fine with those things and believe they have a place in Dick's life as a solo IP. What we don't like is when those things, which should elevate the character, are used to hold him down. And that's been done a lot, for a long time.

Being a sidekick, growing up in Gotham....that's Dick's starting point, it shouldn't be treated as his endgame but that's what DC has done for many years. Hard for fans to see that abuse, that intentional devaluing of the brand, and still be okay with the elements DC has used to hold the character back from reaching his full potential.

----------


## Konja7

To be fair, new writers ignoring what previous writers created seems to be extremely common. Most writers want to do their own thing, so they ignore or erase what previous writers do.

That's the reason that only characters with a a pretty iconic supporting cast would mantain this.

Even if Dick was totally independent from Batman, the character would still have that problem.

----------


## Iclifton

> To a point that fits some wingnuts, sure.
> 
> But a lot of us, especially the long time readers who've been through all the up's and down's and lived through all of Didio's attempts to destroy the character, have plenty of reason to resist the idea of Dick being too tightly tied to Gotham and Bruce. Because those things were used for years as an excuse to pull the rug out from under Dick as a solo property. 
> 
> It's not the idea of Dick getting roped into a Bat event, it's the idea that the Bat event will unravel all of the work in Dick's own book and force Dick to forever play second fiddle to someone, even in his own title where he's supposed to be the star (Percy had years' worth of story to tell, and it got ruined because King wanted to shoot Dick in Bruce's book). It's not Dick still having close ties to Gotham, it's that this is used as an excuse for writers to not bother developing Dick's own unique supporting cast, and dumping all of them as soon as a new writer walks in (the last time Dick had a steady supporting mythos was before Bludhaven was blown up, way back in 06, and ever since then each new creator ignores what came before and starts over, erasing any chance of these new elements to gain traction and elevate the title).
> 
> Dick is a Bat, and a major character hook is the fact that he was once Robin. Those are great things that Nightwing fans like. Most of us are fine with those things and believe they have a place in Dick's life as a solo IP. What we don't like is when those things, which should elevate the character, are used to hold him down. And that's been done a lot, for a long time.
> 
> Being a sidekick, growing up in Gotham....that's Dick's starting point, it shouldn't be treated as his endgame but that's what DC has done for many years. Hard for fans to see that abuse, that intentional devaluing of the brand, and still be okay with the elements DC has used to hold the character back from reaching his full potential.


I agree with what you are saying. However, this tie in is not unraveling Dicks world. In fact Taylor is investing a lot into building it. The expectation that he will not participate is what is unrealistic. He will always be tied to Bruce. What i am seeing on this thread is a lot of people just wanting their vision of what Nightwing should be and all else is flawed. The guy has an A-list team and a ton of books coming out. He is being portrayed as independent. He has his own setting. This crossover is not taking anything away from his world.

If this were "Death of the Family" with Joker blowing up the circus I might agree. But this is a far cry. 

Diddio is gone and Dick is being treated with respect. More so than in years.

----------


## Daedalus

ICV2 Sales for August are in: https://icv2.com/articles/markets/vi...cs-august-2021

Nightwing held its #38 place in units ranking, and moved up from #48 to #42 in dollars ranking. If true, sales continue to be remarkably strong.

As a cautious reminder, ICV2 uses sampling from a non-random population, so it's not very reliable. We'll know more when Comichron posts its estimates.

----------


## Ascended

> To be fair, new writers ignoring what previous writers created seems to be extremely common. Most writers want to do their own thing, so they ignore or erase what previous writers do.
> 
> That's the reason that only characters with a a pretty iconic supporting cast would mantain this.
> 
> Even if Dick was totally independent from Batman, the character would still have that problem.


This is true, though few other characters have had this bad habit intentionally weaponized against them, which I believe is the case with Dick. And even if it's just "the nature of things" and not intentional sabotage, it's incredibly short sighted, bad business, and for a company the size of DC, with the pedigree they have, that's unforgivable.

Writers want to do their own thing? They can do it in creator owned work and/or with brand new characters. If you take a gig at the Big 2, writing established characters, you should use what's on the board. DC has damaged their brand and the individual IP's by not enforcing consistency. 




> If this were "Death of the Family" with Joker blowing up the circus I might agree. But this is a far cry.


The story hasn't come out yet so we can't say what it is or isn't. 

For myself, I'm not overly worried. Taylor has done alright by me, even if I was hoping for something "bigger" than a Dixon redux. But we can't blame the people who are concerned either. Look at the early 52; not too deep into the new era, Dick got derailed by a Bat event and had the entire supporting cast and setting that was being crafted ripped away from him. It happened with Percy. It happened several other times, if I recall correctly. And here we are, fresh into another new era and once again Dick is getting thrown into a Bat event. The pattern is obvious, and while I share your opinion that this event won't be as harmful, well, the pattern is still obvious and that in and of itself is reason for some concern. 

The fact that DC now seems to recognize Dick's value is thin tonic to a fanbase that has grown accustomed to seeing the character abused, marginalized, and disrespected for Bruce's benefit. This Fear State event might not follow the same path as Death of the Family and KGBeast, but you're asking fans to forget over a decade of abuse and, after only six months, assume that this time will be different.  




> Diddio is gone and Dick is being treated with respect. More so than in years.


I agree. But again, they're still following a sadly familiar pattern and fans have every right to be worried about that.

If this is indeed a different animal, we'll know in a few issues when the crossover wraps up. Until then, expect people to remain unconvinced.

----------


## Iclifton

> This is true, though few other characters have had this bad habit intentionally weaponized against them, which I believe is the case with Dick. And even if it's just "the nature of things" and not intentional sabotage, it's incredibly short sighted, bad business, and for a company the size of DC, with the pedigree they have, that's unforgivable.
> 
> Writers want to do their own thing? They can do it in creator owned work and/or with brand new characters. If you take a gig at the Big 2, writing established characters, you should use what's on the board. DC has damaged their brand and the individual IP's by not enforcing consistency. 
> 
> 
> 
> The story hasn't come out yet so we can't say what it is or isn't. 
> 
> For myself, I'm not overly worried. Taylor has done alright by me, even if I was hoping for something "bigger" than a Dixon redux. But we can't blame the people who are concerned either. Look at the early 52; not too deep into the new era, Dick got derailed by a Bat event and had the entire supporting cast and setting that was being crafted ripped away from him. It happened with Percy. It happened several other times, if I recall correctly. And here we are, fresh into another new era and once again Dick is getting thrown into a Bat event. The pattern is obvious, and while I share your opinion that this event won't be as harmful, well, the pattern is still obvious and that in and of itself is reason for some concern. 
> ...


Concern is not what I am seeing. Everyone is complaining as if it has already happened. Specifically noting that Nightwing taking part in this crossover is a plot hole or concern and discredits what is happening in the book. The only continued pattern is Dick taking part in a crossover. Which will always be a thing. Those other runs never treated Dick as a priority or gave him respect. We can already see we are in a vastly different space given the creative freedom Tom has been given, the amount of books being published with Grayson and the A-list teams being given. This is as good as it gets comic wise.

----------


## Ascended

> Concern is not what I am seeing. Everyone is complaining as if it has already happened.


And by assuming things will turn out differently this time, aren't we also acting as if the arc has already ended?  

You're right, there's some people here who are hellbent on running Taylor's work down and will find anything to complain about, no matter how silly or hypocritical (not like anyone bitches about Bruce leaving Gotham to hang with the League). But my point is that the Nightwing fandom has grown accustomed to getting f*cked over, and it's not surprising that people here are expecting DC to f*ck them over again. It's been happening for more than a decade, and Taylor's six issues isn't enough to convince people that things are different now.

I agree that we're in a much better place than we were a year ago. I've been a pretty damned happy wingnut. But I don't expect fans to forgive and forget after six issues, either.

----------


## Iclifton

> And by assuming things will turn out differently this time, aren't we also acting as if the arc has already ended?  
> 
> You're right, there's some people here who are hellbent on running Taylor's work down and will find anything to complain about, no matter how silly or hypocritical (not like anyone bitches about Bruce leaving Gotham to hang with the League). But my point is that the Nightwing fandom has grown accustomed to getting f*cked over, and it's not surprising that people here are expecting DC to f*ck them over again. It's been happening for more than a decade, and Taylor's six issues isn't enough to convince people that things are different now.
> 
> I agree that we're in a much better place than we were a year ago. I've been a pretty damned happy wingnut. But I don't expect fans to forgive and forget after six issues, either.


I do not expect them to forget. But literally all signs point to the opposite. Look at all the books we are getting. Taylor has flat out confirmed a return to his storyline. All of the complaints I have replied to are about how his book is currently going in the wrong direction. All my responses have been in regard to unrealistic expectations. 

Also, yes the initial 6 issue arc is over. He has left certain plot points unresolved as they are long term plots, as many series do at both DC and Marvel. 
On a positive note, I am pumped to see the book selling well.

----------


## AmiMizuno

You guys think we are going to get that Nightwing cartoon? Because I know there was a video saying it's happening. Hopefully for a while there isn't a love triangle but most likely when Tom leaves we are most likely getting a break up. Let's hope not. Overall Dc I believe is while wanting DickBabs also know they can get money and maybe worried on the backlash.

Overall we know marriage is never in the cards with the Batfam.

----------


## Daedalus

> You guys think we are going to get that Nightwing cartoon? Because I know there was a video saying it's happening.


That's been a rumor for over a decade at this point. If we do, I hope it won't be a Bruce Timm one. There are some characters Timm really doesn't get, and Dick Grayson is one of them.

I'd hope for something done by Greg Weisman.




> Hopefully for a while there isn't a love triangle but most likely when Tom leaves we are most likely getting a break up. Let's hope not.


Taylor just tweeted today that he and Redondo will be on Nightwing for a long time, so I don't think we should worry about what happens when he leaves. I expect he'll stay on at least till #100.




> Overall Dc I believe is while wanting DickBabs also know they can get money and maybe worried on the backlash.
> 
> Overall we know marriage is never in the cards with the Batfam.


Let's see where he takes their relationship. I'd imagine there's much more writer freedom around Dick Grayson than around Bruce Wayne.

----------


## HsssH

> Look at the early 52; not too deep into the new era, Dick got derailed by a Bat event and had the entire supporting cast and setting that was being crafted ripped away from him.


I wonder if this isn't one of the reasons why current arc doesn't really have any supporting characters? Asides of his sister he is interacting only with other heroes. And his sister will eventually turn either into a hero or a villain. 

Same for setting really, this Bludhaven is just generic Bludhaven like every other one. You can't really damage it. Well sure, you can nuke it again, but I don't think that its plausible scenario at the time.

----------


## Godlike13

The New 52 Nightwing series wasn’t derailed by a Bat event. It was driven by a Bat Event. It’s entire initial direction was to feed into the Court of Owls event. The supporting cast, the setting, all there to feed into the Court story and it’s reveals.

----------


## Rac7d*

> The New 52 Nightwing series wasn’t derailed by a Bat event. It was driven by a Bat Event. It’s entire initial direction was to feed into the Court of Owls event. The supporting cast, the setting, all there to feed into the Court story and it’s reveals.


Then destroyed by death of the family event

----------


## Claude

> Then destroyed by death of the family event


Causing Higgins' retool/move to Chicago, which was derailed by Forever Evil...

Can't blame people for feeling a bit stung still! I mean, Snyder's "No Justice" event was aggressively unmemorable, but going from interviews in the weeks in advance talking about Nightwing/Amanda Waller teaming up to be Earth Defense, and then the previews come out and its Green Arrow in his place? That one hurt!

----------


## Godlike13

> Then destroyed by death of the family event


Most of it was already put to bed by the climax of the Court story. The new friends were dead and Haley’s secrets were reveled. They just did the same thing again with Death of Family. Setting up a direction to ultimately feed into the event. The move to Chicago was the only point that series had its own direction to derail. And at that point it’s was a mercy kill. Forcing the happy accident that was Grayson. Other then the Chicago arc though, the events were its destinations.

----------


## Rac7d*

> Most of it was already put to bed by the climax of the Court story. The new friends were dead and Haley’s secrets were reveled. They just did the same thing again with Death of Family. Setting up a direction to ultimately feed into the event. The move to Chicago was the only point that series had its own direction to derail. And at that point it’s was a mercy kill. Forcing the happy accident that was Grayson. Other then the Chicago arc though, the events were its destinations.


I wonder if the writers agree on that

----------


## Iclifton

I can see why people were angry with the New 52 run I wasn’t a fan either, but all indications are this isn’t what’s happening at all.

Bludhaven is being developed. So far we have met his sister, the Maroni family and like it or not reastablished Blockbuster as a big factor. It’s only been 6 issues and Taylor has introduced a lot of different plot points and spent time putting Dick in a new position within the city. I’m sure we will get more of a supporting cast as the book progresses. 

In regards to animated series, I honestly see this happening. I believe Jim Lee just had an interview where he said DC the publisher is being asked to push characters that could be adapted in the future. I don’t think it’s coincidence Nightwing is being pushed. He is attached to the companies number one IP. Mark my words, within the next few years we get an animated series/movie! If it were Timm, I’d be a little bummed, but I’ll be happy to take what I can get.

----------


## Iclifton

> I wonder if this isn't one of the reasons why current arc doesn't really have any supporting characters? Asides of his sister he is interacting only with other heroes. And his sister will eventually turn either into a hero or a villain. 
> 
> Same for setting really, this Bludhaven is just generic Bludhaven like every other one. You can't really damage it. Well sure, you can nuke it again, but I don't think that its plausible scenario at the time.


It takes time to build a solid supporting cast. The man has had six issues. Guaranteed if he had spent this arc introducing a bunch of OC`s we would be getting complaints about how another writer disregards Dicks connections to the outside DCU and focuses on a bland/generic supporting cast that the next writer will not use.

There is just no winning.

----------


## SiegePerilous02

> It takes time to build a solid supporting cast. The man has had six issues. Guaranteed if he had spent this arc introducing a bunch of OC`s we would be getting complaints about how another writer disregards Dicks connections to the outside DCU and focuses on a bland/generic supporting cast that the next writer will not use.
> 
> There is just no winning.


Couldn't he avoid that by using previous Bludhaven characters from the Dixon, Grayson or Seeley days instead of making new ones? At the very least it might cut the legs out from the "nobody will use these characters again" argument because he'd be using previous ones that have at least some history and it gives them more legs. 

Of course it is early, and he very well may end up doing just that.

----------


## Iclifton

> Couldn't he avoid that by using previous Bludhaven characters from the Dixon, Grayson or Seeley days instead of making new ones? At the very least it might cut the legs out from the "nobody will use these characters again" argument because he'd be using previous ones that have at least some history and it gives them more legs. 
> 
> Of course it is early, and he very well may end up doing just that.


Then we would be getting more complaints about how this run is a Bludhaven redux. 

Like I said no winning.

To be honest, Tim, Superman and the Titans have not been a huge part of the run and have not derailed the story. The only character that has been a true side character is Barbara and tbh it makes sense. She adds to the book.

----------


## Rac7d*

778F4AC5-B3B7-455D-9268-C3AB6B6E3EFD.jpg

I am so thirsty for this

----------


## SiegePerilous02

> Then we would be getting more complaints about how this run is a Bludhaven redux. 
> 
> Like I said no winning.
> 
> To be honest, Tim, Superman and the Titans have not been a huge part of the run and have not derailed the story. The only character that has been a true side character is Barbara and tbh it makes sense. She adds to the book.


I mean if sales are indeed strong, then some of our complaints are probably minority opinions for now until we see how long this lasts.

So it's not really "no winning" unless we put a lot of value on the opinions of this forum, which is never an accurate indicator.

----------


## Godlike13

> Then we would be getting more complaints about how this run is a Bludhaven redux. 
> 
> Like I said no winning.
> 
> To be honest, Tim, Superman and the Titans have not been a huge part of the run and have not derailed the story. The only character that has been a true side character is Barbara and tbh it makes sense. She adds to the book.


There's always going to be complaints, and thats actually kind of good. Its means there is a healthy audience. When there are no complaints it usually just means ether no on cares or they whittled down the audience. The bigger the audience  the less odds there are that they are going to make everyone perfectly happy.

----------


## Ascended

> Couldn't he avoid that by using previous Bludhaven characters from the Dixon, Grayson or Seeley days instead of making new ones? At the very least it might cut the legs out from the "nobody will use these characters again" argument because he'd be using previous ones that have at least some history and it gives them more legs. 
> 
> Of course it is early, and he very well may end up doing just that.


I fully expect him to bring back at least a couple familiar faces (besides Blockbuster). But the slow burn of the book means it could take ages before we see them. I figure if we're gonna see old characters it's most likely gonna happen when Taylor sets up the NPO. That seems like the arc best suited to developing and expanding the city and its cast.

I really hope Taylor does use old characters, Dick's got some quality rogues and supporting cast sprinkled throughout his various eras and I think it'd do a world of good to mix them together and try to weave a slightly more unified Nightwing mythology from the parts. Not a full-on "everything counts" approach, but I wouldn't mind some cherry picking.

----------


## Claude

> I really hope Taylor does use old characters, Dick's got some quality rogues and supporting cast sprinkled throughout his various eras and I think it'd do a world of good to mix them together and try to weave a slightly more unified Nightwing mythology from the parts. Not a full-on "everything counts" approach, but I wouldn't mind some cherry picking.


Certainly, Redondo would draw the hell out of Flamingo!

----------


## Frontier

> 778F4AC5-B3B7-455D-9268-C3AB6B6E3EFD.jpg
> 
> I am so thirsty for this


I'm looking forward to hearing Christopher Sean as Dick.

Kaz was far from my favorite Star Wars protagonist but he did a good job voicing him.

----------


## HsssH

So anyone read latest King Shark issue? It has Pigeon in it and she looks a bit different than how I remember her in Nightwing. Am I remembering wrong? Or did she appear somewhere after Nightwing and before this?

----------


## Drako

> So anyone read latest King Shark issue? It has Pigeon in it and she looks a bit different than how I remember her in Nightwing. Am I remembering wrong? Or did she appear somewhere after Nightwing and before this?


Definitely different. She was a regular woman with wings, kinda like the Thanagarians. Maybe Waller did something to her, she looked like a monster in this book.

----------


## Grayson - The Dark Heir

> Bludhaven is being developed.


Just wanted to quickly say that this is definitely not the case. Besides Dick's apartment, there's literally no recognizable locations in the city, not new or returning. Compare that to Seeley or Humphries run, and it's a major difference. If you consider Rebirth stories as part of the big picture, Taylor's just done no developing of the city. If you view the run on its own merits, Bludhaven is significantly less developed than it was during Humphries run, or hell, less developed than it was during Percy's run.

Taylor's developed Dick's wealth, re-established Batfamily dynamics and the Superman connection (...again, we just had this in Rebirth lol), and Melinda Zucco's storyline (and thereby playing with the backstory of the Flying Graysons). None of that is an issue (well, the sister plot twist is boring, but it's still early to say it's a bad choice), but Bludhaven is definitely not being developed. It's had some lip service about differences from Gotham to justify it existing as its own city, but nothing really setting it apart. The art team hard carries the book right now, because without them there really is nothing to Bludhaven outside of it being a generic city. Even then, nothing the art team is doing is doing anything with the city to develop its visual identity either, just develop the identity of the book itself. Which to me just says the book doesn't need Bludhaven whatsoever.

----------


## dropkickjake

> I fully expect him to bring back at least a couple familiar faces (besides Blockbuster). But the slow burn of the book means it could take ages before we see them. I figure if we're gonna see old characters it's most likely gonna happen when Taylor sets up the NPO. That seems like the arc best suited to developing and expanding the city and its cast.
> 
> I really hope Taylor does use old characters, Dick's got some quality rogues and supporting cast sprinkled throughout his various eras and I think it'd do a world of good to mix them together and try to weave a slightly more unified Nightwing mythology from the parts. Not a full-on "everything counts" approach, but I wouldn't mind some cherry picking.


If we're doing the whole "Dick lives in an apartment block that he owns," bit, I'd really like to see the return of Clancy. She could even fill the night nurse role as well, as I'm pretty sure that late in the run she went off to med school or something? anywho, It'd be nice to see.

----------


## Rac7d*

> If we're doing the whole "Dick lives in an apartment block that he owns," bit, I'd really like to see the return of Clancy. She could even fill the night nurse role as well, as I'm pretty sure that late in the run she went off to med school or something? anywho, It'd be nice to see.


She a full on doctor and why returns to the neighborhood she just barely escaped being nuked, I’m glad the writer got her out alive 
Nightwing losses to many supporting characters

----------


## SiegePerilous02

> Taylor's developed Dick's wealth, re-established Batfamily dynamics and the Superman connection (...again, we just had this in Rebirth lol), and Melinda Zucco's storyline (and thereby playing with the backstory of the Flying Graysons). None of that is an issue (well, the sister plot twist is boring, but it's still early to say it's a bad choice), but Bludhaven is definitely not being developed. It's had some lip service about differences from Gotham to justify it existing as its own city, but nothing really setting it apart. The art team hard carries the book right now, because without them there really is nothing to Bludhaven outside of it being a generic city. Even then, nothing the art team is doing is doing anything with the city to develop its visual identity either, just develop the identity of the book itself. Which to me just says the book doesn't need Bludhaven whatsoever.


Yeah, it's not that Bludhaven is exactly a detrimental component to the Nightwing books success, but since its inception back in the 90s it hasn't had a consistent identity to not make it come across as generic. The whole "it's totally worse than Gotham" thing always came across as a bit desperate, because nobody will ever really believe that or care. 

It's less a vital component and more "this book has to be set somewhere, might as well be here"

----------


## Claude

Thinking some more about the Superman connection, it feels like for a long time that's been maintained in comics - if at all - through little cameos here and there. The last issue of Nightwing, the early (first?) issue of Tomasi's run - or bits in Titans or Outsiders where Superman will fly in, Dick will assert the team's independence and Superman flies out again.

How many actual full _team-up_ issues have there been between Clark and Dick?

IIRC, one issue of Nightwing Year One was one. Then an issue of Action Comics (771) and Dixon's Nightwing (30) - then more recently Grayson Annual 2 and the issue of Rebirth Nightwing where Clark tells Dick to move to Bludhaven.

Am I missing any? Are there enough examples for a _Nightwing And Superman_ collection - because I'd certainly buy one.

----------


## Godlike13

That it really, it not Bludhaven itself that’s detrimental. Not directly. It’s the back round purpose of it and creative contentment it allows for. A stable setting like Bludhaven is suppose to make the job easier. So they can quickly slot in and out creators with groundwork continually present. But it’s not always suppose to be easy, and it incentivizes a traditional kind superhero story formula that readers have seen over and over. What more that kind of formula is easily abused by lazy creators to just effortlessly spin the wheels in that conditioned formula like we saw with Ric. And that’s the problem. Not Bludhaven itself, but the formula it incentivizes and enables. That’s the trap of it creators need to avoid.

----------


## Vordan

> Just wanted to quickly say that this is definitely not the case. Besides Dick's apartment, there's literally no recognizable locations in the city, not new or returning. Compare that to Seeley or Humphries run, and it's a major difference. If you consider Rebirth stories as part of the big picture, Taylor's just done no developing of the city. If you view the run on its own merits, Bludhaven is significantly less developed than it was during Humphries run, or hell, less developed than it was during Percy's run.
> 
> Taylor's developed Dick's wealth, re-established Batfamily dynamics and the Superman connection (...again, we just had this in Rebirth lol), and Melinda Zucco's storyline (and thereby playing with the backstory of the Flying Graysons). None of that is an issue (well, the sister plot twist is boring, but it's still early to say it's a bad choice), but Bludhaven is definitely not being developed. It's had some lip service about differences from Gotham to justify it existing as its own city, but nothing really setting it apart. The art team hard carries the book right now, because without them there really is nothing to Bludhaven outside of it being a generic city. Even then, nothing the art team is doing is doing anything with the city to develop its visual identity either, just develop the identity of the book itself. Which to me just says the book doesn't need Bludhaven whatsoever.


Baffles me they ditched the Las Vegas aesthetic Seeley established. That was perfect, a great way to have the city reflect Dick the way Gotham does Bruce while also establishing Bludhaven as different. Now it’s just “generic East Coast city” again.

----------


## dropkickjake

> Baffles me they ditched the Las Vegas aesthetic Seeley established. That was perfect, a great way to have the city reflect Dick the way Gotham does Bruce while also establishing Bludhaven as different. Now it’s just “generic East Coast city” again.


Genuinely think Hunphries has done the best job with the city. The tone of it really felt like both the Vegas of Seeley and the grit of Dixon. Really think Untouchable is an underrated run.

----------


## WonderNight

> Baffles me they ditched the Las Vegas aesthetic Seeley established. That was perfect, a great way to have the city reflect Dick the way Gotham does Bruce while also establishing Bludhaven as different. Now it’s just “generic East Coast city” again.


Yes this right here, Bludhaven should reflect dick. The Vegas setting would've perfect for dick as a billionaire. Dicks now the richest man in bludhaven! Dick going under cover with bludhaven's corrupted elite and taking them down behind there backs as nightwing in a Vegas coast city that's all about power, money fun and sex for the corrupt would've been way more fun and interesting.

The Robin's book is done by seeley right, and takes place in bludhaven. So I hope seeley brings it back for that.

----------


## HsssH

My hope would be that since first issue focuses on homeless people they decided to show "darker" image of Bludhaven and once the story finally gets moving we'll get more of Vegas influences.

----------


## Rac7d*

8AD8E847-397D-4775-A79C-5D885D2A9087.jpg

I will be reading

----------


## Frontier

> 8AD8E847-397D-4775-A79C-5D885D2A9087.jpg
> 
> I will be reading


Not my favorite take on the Nightwing suit though.

----------


## Drako

> 8AD8E847-397D-4775-A79C-5D885D2A9087.jpg
> 
> I will be reading


More exposure for Dick outside of the main comics, even tho he wasn't in the first three chapters. It's was enjoyable if you don't mind fanon, which this 100% is.

This is what being part of the Bat umbrella brings for him, much more exposure than what characters outside of the Bat Franchise don't have.

----------


## Rac7d*

> More exposure for Dick outside of the main comics, even tho he wasn't in the first three chapters. It's was enjoyable if you don't mind fanon, which this 100% is.
> 
> This is what being part of the Bat umbrella brings for him, much more exposure than what characters outside of the Bat Franchise don't have.


There are more chapters

----------


## Drako

> There are more chapters


I know, but i not going to pay to read this in advance.

----------


## Rac7d*

> I know, but i not going to pay to read this in advance.


Hes featured in the next couple

----------


## Rac7d*

> Superboy is in Titans United. That seems to contradict Suicide Squad.


Another clone

----------


## Vordan

> Not my favorite take on the Nightwing suit though.


I’m a simple man, if it has the blue stripes on his arms and the bird head at the center I’m happy.

----------


## HsssH

Isn't Titans United out of continuity?

----------


## Lal

> Isn't Titans United out of continuity?


Yes, Titans United is outside of the current IF timeline continuity.

It's supposed to be a standard Titans story (apparently influenced by NTT) that helps fans of the TV show to get to know the characters in comics.

----------


## Daedalus

> There are more chapters


I read the other ones with Dick in them. I thought he was well portrayed, and:

*spoilers:*
 in the last one, there's a subtle reference to his connection to Supes 
*end of spoilers*

----------


## Lucas 35

From Jeff Lemire's newsletter: a sneak peak at Robin and Batman #2

----------


## Frontier

> From Jeff Lemire's newsletter: a sneak peak at Robin and Batman #2


Satellite era Justice League? The Teen Titans meeting on the Watchtower? Batman being supportive? Awesome  :Smile: .

----------


## Drako

> From Jeff Lemire's newsletter: a sneak peak at Robin and Batman #2


Looks great!

----------


## Vordan

> From Jeff Lemire's newsletter: a sneak peak at Robin and Batman #2


Looks great! Excited to read this.

----------


## Rac7d*

> From Jeff Lemire's newsletter: a sneak peak at Robin and Batman #2


When will this be released?

----------


## OBrianTallent

> When will this be released?


November 9th is what Previews has listed for the first issue.

----------


## Vordan

> Robin and Batman was a project with a long gestation. I originally pitched it to then DC Black Label/Vertigo editor Mark Doyle as a series I would both write and draw for Black Label, but it never got off the ground and I was always busy with other things. It got shelved and then last year, as Dustin and I were wrapping up Descender/Ascender we had the idea to do a short DC thing before launching into our next creator-owned book. Dustin loves Batman, so I dusted off the pitch to Robin and Batman and we got the greenlight pretty quickly.


https://jefflemire.substack.com/p/di...-from-the-farm

----------


## Claude

> https://jefflemire.substack.com/p/di...-from-the-farm


Also confirms that he was approached, or pitched, to do a "Robins" title at one point - which I'm sure was heavily rumoured some years ago, but (obviously) never happened.

----------


## Frontier

> https://jefflemire.substack.com/p/di...-from-the-farm


Funny how that happens...

----------


## ZuLuLu

> Also confirms that he was approached, or pitched, to do a "Robins" title at one point - which I'm sure was heavily rumoured some years ago, but (obviously) never happened.


Scott Snyder, confirmed that there were plans for a Robins title.

SmartSelect_20210913-161359_Samsung Internet.jpg

----------


## Vordan

> Scott Snyder, confirmed that there were plans for a Robins title.
> 
> SmartSelect_20210913-161359_Samsung Internet.jpg


Seeley and King mentioned that there have been multiple pitches for that kind of book. It’s finally happening under Seeley at least.

----------


## Digifiend

It shouldn't have needed a fan vote for us to get that.

----------


## Godlike13

Meh, im on DC’s side on this one. It’s such low hanging fruit. It turns Robin into Power Rangers and depreciates the ex-Robins individual identities. Sure they might get another mid tier selling floppy, but sometimes it’s more important to protect their properties in how they present them.

----------


## HsssH

Agreed on that. DC's goal should be to have 3-4 Robin/ex-Robin ongoings rather than a Robins book.

----------


## dietrich

> From Jeff Lemire's newsletter: a sneak peak at Robin and Batman #2


This art is gorgeous.

The Batman in that last Panel is just amazing

----------


## Godlike13

> Agreed on that. DC's goal should be to have 3-4 Robin/ex-Robin ongoings rather than a Robins book.


Exactly.
…

----------


## Frontier

> Agreed on that. DC's goal should be to have 3-4 Robin/ex-Robin ongoings rather than a Robins book.


I'd take both...presuming the latter was written well.

----------


## Restingvoice

> Meh, im on DCs side on this one. Its such low hanging fruit. It turns Robin into Power Rangers and depreciates the ex-Robins individual identities. Sure they might get another mid tier selling floppy, but sometimes its more important to protect their properties in how they present them.


Since when DC care about individual Ex Robin brand?

----------


## HsssH

I don't follow, are you saying that they published hundreds of Dick and Jason post-Robin comics because they don't care?

----------


## Drako

This might be the first look of Dick's new costume.




> My first official interior page #nightwing @




https://www.instagram.com/p/CT0STVClngU/

----------


## Pohzee

Mora on Nightwing. Hot damn

----------


## WonderNight

> This might be the first look of Dick's new costume.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.instagram.com/p/CT0STVClngU/


What issue is this for?

----------


## Drako

> What issue is this for?


Detective Comics, but it's not released yet.

----------


## Lal

> Detective Comics, but it's not released yet.


Dan mora commented it's from issue 1045, and that nightwing is just making a small appearance.

I love this design, but I wonder if it is the new costume if it's going to appear before Redondo returns in issue 87.

----------


## CPSparkles

> This might be the first look of Dick's new costume.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.instagram.com/p/CT0STVClngU/


Looks good. One of my favourite Nightwing artists.

----------


## Digifiend

> I'd take both...presuming the latter was written well.


Yeah, and besides, the Robins book is just a six issue mini, running alongside Dick and Damian's ongoing solo books.

----------


## Drako

> Dan mora commented it's from issue 1045, and that nightwing is just making a small appearance.
> 
> I love this design, but I wonder if it is the new costume if it's going to appear before Redondo returns in issue 87.


They are releasing the solicits this week, so we might see Redondo new design soon.

----------


## Daedalus

> This might be the first look of Dick's new costume.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.instagram.com/p/CT0STVClngU/


Looks beautiful. I'm loving Redondo and want him to stay as long as possible, but Mora draws a fantastic Nightwing too.

----------


## Digifiend

Batgirls cover with Dick and Haley on it.

----------


## Rac7d*

> Batgirls cover with Dick and Haley on it.


I had assumed they would appear since Babs was spending so much time in his book. Nice to know he will return the favor. I was m now 100 percent behind this

----------


## Pohzee

Dick's getting his ass kicked in that game though. Power level controversy time?

----------


## Katana500

> Dick's getting his ass kicked in that game though. Power level controversy time?


Hahahha looks like a classic situation of one player knows how to play while the other grabs the remote and doesnt know how to even move!

----------


## dietrich

The Robins together DC's yet to convince me they can do well without having them watered down to The Ninja Turtles archetypes. 
Dick and Damian work brilliantly without undermining each other but all of them together everyone suffers.

----------


## dietrich

> Batgirls cover with Dick and Haley on it.


What a cute cover.

----------


## Drako

Another cover with Bitewing and one with Nightwing.

----------


## Frontier

Cass has a Conner plushie! Referencing their relationship  :Smile: .

Dick and Babs look like happy parents on that one cover...

----------


## Restingvoice

> Dick's getting his ass kicked in that game though. Power level controversy time?


Man if someone actually make that thing into a power level controversy I'm gonna smack them ^^

----------


## Godlike13

Are they going to be in Bludhaven. What’s with all the Nightwing.

----------


## Godlike13

Double, double.

----------


## Drako

> Are they going to be in Bludhaven. What’s with all the Nightwing.


Make sense with Babs being a regular in Nightwing. I doubt thats the case, but Gotham is crowded anyways, they can be in Bludhaven.

----------


## Konja7

> Are they going to be in Bludhaven. What’s with all the Nightwing.


It seems they would still be in Gotham (according to the solicitations).

I guess Nightwing's appearance is due to Barbara. Also, they had an appearance in the Nightwing's Fear State crossover.

----------


## Frontier

They literally look like their parents on that one cover  :Stick Out Tongue: .

----------


## Rac7d*

> Are they going to be in Bludhaven. What’s with all the Nightwing.


its staring barbra, and since they are in a relationship and she spends so much time at his place it only makes sense

----------


## Ascended

Sh*t, I got all excited for a second thinking Mora was switching titles and taking over Nightwing. 

Don't get me wrong, Redondo is utterly fantastic and I'm in no rush to see him leave the title, but Mora is *the* guy I've wanted on Nightwing ever since the first issue of Klaus came out.

----------


## Arsenal

> The Robins together DC's yet to convince me they can do well without having them watered down to The Ninja Turtles archetypes. 
> Dick and Damian work brilliantly without undermining each other but all of them together everyone suffers.


Probably because they end up being written as watered down Ninja Turtles when together instead of 4 different characters with radically different up-brings & experiences who all happen to be Bats.

----------


## Claude

> Probably because they end up being written as watered down Ninja Turtles when together instead of 4 different characters with radically different up-brings & experiences who all happen to be Bats.


That's been true in the past, definitely - but something being done badly doesn't mean it can't be done better later. So Tynion in the Eternals, and Tomasi in the various "Batman And Robin" appearances lent that way, but - whatever that story's other faults! - it doesn't feel like that was true in Robin War, for instance.

Back in 2012-odd when the Lemire "Robins" title was being reported on Bleeding Cool, we were looking at Higgins on Nightwing, Tomasi on Batman And Robin, and Scott Lobdell on Red Hood and Teen Titans - based on what he was putting out at the time, Lemire's crossover title would probably have been better than any of those characters' solos.

----------


## Lady Nightwing

> Batgirls cover with Dick and Haley on it.


This is unbelievably cute but my enjoyment is somewhat ruined by the game screen being projected behind them and also what seems to be a blow up of one of their cell phones. It makes no sense. The numbers on the cell phone screen are backwards so I assume it's supposed to be a reflection,  but even the most high gloss paint wouldn't reflect an image with that clarity. Honestly, triggering me  :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## AmiMizuno

Is that suppose to be bitewing? Super cute. Am I the only one who would love to see something like Titus, Ace and Bitewing comic?

----------


## Vordan

> Is that suppose to be bitewing? Super cute. Am I the only one who would love to see something like Titus, Ace and Bitewing comic?


Maybe it will come with the League of Super Pets movie lol.

----------


## HsssH

Ok, so with Barbara being obviously a supporting character in Batgirls... does that mean that we'll keep getting her in Nightwing? I hope not, but that would explain why Redondo designed a new costume for her. 




> The Robins together DC's yet to convince me they can do well without having them watered down to The Ninja Turtles archetypes. 
> Dick and Damian work brilliantly without undermining each other but all of them together everyone suffers.


Recent Robin issue is perfect example of that to me. Pages with Damian and Dick were amazing, but once we got Tim, Jason or Steph it suffered a lot.

----------


## Pohzee

> Ok, so with Barbara being obviously a supporting character in Batgirls... does that mean that we'll keep getting her in Nightwing? I hope not, but that would explain why Redondo designed a new costume for her. 
> 
> Recent Robin issue is perfect example of that to me. Pages with Damian and Dick were amazing, but once we got Tim, Jason or Steph it suffered a lot.


 Honestly with the prominence of the Batgirl squad in Nightwing for the Fear State crossover, recent Bruno art of Steph and Cass (he's not on the event), Nightwing's presence on the Batgirls cover, Barbara's presence in the title so far, and the general description of Shadow of the Bat... it sounds like Dick's role over the next year will be as a head of the Bat-family during Bruce's absence in Gotham: especially involved in a family-like unit with Barbara in charge of the Batgirls.

And that's just something I don't want to see. I know a lot of people have been looking forward to the Batgirls book for a long time, but to be honest I think it looks pretty horrid and infantilizing of the two younger characters. It seems almost like the Robins book as a caricatureized series without too much depth or seriousness like the Robins. And as someone who is not really a fan of those characters in general, I would prefer that it had no involvement with Dick's book. In-fact, I'd prefer Dick's book have little to no involvement with Gotham in general as a rule.

----------


## HsssH

Now I'm thinking about possible Shadow of the Bat tie-ins for Nightwing.

----------


## Astralabius

> Ok, so with Barbara being obviously a supporting character in Batgirls... does that mean that we'll keep getting her in Nightwing? I hope not, but that would explain why Redondo designed a new costume for her. 
> 
> 
> 
> Recent Robin issue is perfect example of that to me. Pages with Damian and Dick were amazing, but once we got Tim, Jason or Steph it suffered a lot.


I just wish that DC would stop telling me who a character is and start showing me instead...in general. It's so annoying.
Bruce Wayne is a good man? Okay, then stop writing him as an abusive asshole who never apologizes.
Dick is the heart of DC? Okay, then let him interact with the rest of the DC universe again.
Tim is the smartest? How about writing him as an actual smart person instead of just telling us that he is or writing everyone around him as a dumbass?
Just to name a few examples.
Those claims feel so lazy and empty when they just get thrown around with little (recent) material to back them up.

----------


## Frontier

> Honestly with the prominence of the Batgirl squad in Nightwing for the Fear State crossover, recent Bruno art of Steph and Cass (he's not on the event), Nightwing's presence on the Batgirls cover, Barbara's presence in the title so far, and the general description of Shadow of the Bat... it sounds like Dick's role over the next year will be as a head of the Bat-family during Bruce's absence in Gotham: especially involved in a family-like unit with Barbara in charge of the Batgirls.
> 
> And that's just something I don't want to see. I know a lot of people have been looking forward to the Batgirls book for a long time, but to be honest I think it looks pretty horrid and infantilizing of the two younger characters. It seems almost like the Robins book as a caricatureized series without too much depth or seriousness like the Robins. And as someone who is not really a fan of those characters in general, I would prefer that it had no involvement with Dick's book. In-fact, I'd prefer Dick's book have little to no involvement with Gotham in general as a rule.


I expect Taylor to write them very quippy in _Nightwing._

----------


## Rac7d*

I want this framed
001BD8BD-F470-48CF-A691-F6A73B74C4D8.jpg

----------


## Drako

Nightwing #87 plays out as one continuous, spectacular image.

https://www.polygon.com/comics/22677...redondo-covers

Crazy stuff!

----------


## Frontier

Redondo should do an artbook...

----------


## Iclifton

> Nightwing #87 plays out as one continuous, spectacular image.
> 
> https://www.polygon.com/comics/22677...redondo-covers
> 
> Crazy stuff!


Wow that is awesome.

Regardless of how you feel about the current run, you have to appreciate the ambition from both Taylor and Redondo.

----------


## Godlike13

> Nightwing #87 plays out as one continuous, spectacular image.
> 
> https://www.polygon.com/comics/22677...redondo-covers
> 
> Crazy stuff!


This is why this run is special. Its one thing just to have Redondo on art, but it’s something else to recognize the level he’s performing and then incorporate it like this. Writers don’t always know when to step back and let their artist tell the story.

----------


## OBrianTallent

> I want this framed
> 001BD8BD-F470-48CF-A691-F6A73B74C4D8.jpg


Nightwing is the only book that I have bought 2nd and 3rd printings of issues because Redondo's covers just get better and better.

----------


## Badou

At least they are aware that Redondo is the driving force behind the book over Taylor's story and are letting Redondo flex his muscles.

----------


## Rac7d*

> Nightwing is the only book that I have bought 2nd and 3rd printings of issues because Redondo's covers just get better and better.


Your lucky I didn’t get issue one until it’s third printing 
I am now on a subscription the demand he has

----------


## Rac7d*

> At least they are aware that Redondo is the driving force behind the book over Taylor's story and are letting Redondo flex his muscles.


Bruh Taylor isn’t going anywhere

----------


## Digifiend

He never said he was. Sounded like he thinks the art is the selling point rather than the writing, but that doesn't mean he thinks Taylor needs to go.

----------


## Rac7d*

> He never said he was. Sounded like he thinks the art is the selling point rather than the writing, but that doesn't mean he thinks Taylor needs to go.


He’s been pretty clear that he has been bored with the writing and direction for quite some time

----------


## Badou

> He’s been pretty clear that he has been bored with the writing and direction for quite some time


Well yeah, I think the storytelling is mediocre and Redondo's art is hard carrying the series atm. I think that maybe even a Tylor knows the strength of the series is Redondo's art by having more art focused issues like this.

----------


## phonogram12

The only two things I've read from Tom Taylor is Batman - the Detective and Nightwing. As far as I'm concerned, he's knocked 'em out of the park with both.

----------


## Iclifton

> Well yeah, I think the storytelling is mediocre and Redondo's art is hard carrying the series atm. I think that maybe even a Tylor knows the strength of the series is Redondo's art by having more art focused issues like this.


Haters gonna hate.

----------


## Badou

> Haters gonna hate.


When Taylor's run is over and Bludhaven and Blockbuster are still worthless, Dick's sister is dropped into limbo, and fans are complaining about Dick's directions as always, I honestly can't wait for all the excuses fans will come up with about how Bludhaven is still a great concept that writers just haven't gotten right.  :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## Lady Nightwing

20210917_044439.jpg

Variant cover of 87 by Jamal Campbell.

----------


## Lal

Somehow the Nightwing covers just keep getting better and better, and they were already amazing to begin with.
I'll probably buy at least 2 copies of this issue.

I don't think Taylor really believes that the art is the main draw of this series. He always says that the artists he works with are amazing and that he feels bad adding text that hides their work.

----------


## Pohzee

> Somehow the Nightwing covers just keep getting better and better, and they were already amazing to begin with.
> I'll probably buy at least 2 copies of this issue.
> 
> I don't think Taylor really believes that the art is the main draw of this series. He always says that the artists he works with are amazing and that he feels bad adding text that hides their work.


My brother says that he wishes that he wouldn't either  :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## Rac7d*

They know their audience well
https://twitter.com/hbomaxpop/status...632409089?s=21

----------


## Frontier

> They know their audience well
> https://twitter.com/hbomaxpop/status...632409089?s=21


Well, the actor is good looking...

----------


## Rac7d*

He is such a good friend

----------


## Frontier

> He is such a good friend


I wonder if this is one of the last times Garth appeared before his death in _Blackest Night_...

----------


## Drako

> I wonder if this is one of the last times Garth appeared before his death in _Blackest Night_...


it was the last book he appeared before his death, yes.

----------


## Hypo

https://twitter.com/TomTaylorMade/st...97812191547392

----------


## Frontier

> https://twitter.com/TomTaylorMade/st...97812191547392


Just some bros enjoying a drink together  :Smile: .

----------


## Ascended

Makes me wonder; what does Dick drink? 

I can't see him drinking gutter beer like PBR or Bud Lite, nor can I see him drinking some rich man's booze with gold flakes and the blood of virgins in it.

But micro brews? I can totally see him drinking those.

----------


## Frontier

> Makes me wonder; what does Dick drink? 
> 
> I can't see him drinking gutter beer like PBR or Bud Lite, nor can I see him drinking some rich man's booze with gold flakes and the blood of virgins in it.
> 
> But micro brews? I can totally see him drinking those.


Out of all the Batfamily, I can see most being teetotaler's most of the time.

----------


## AmiMizuno

I'm curious. Do you guys think maybe we could get a Nightwing Webtoon or should it just be Batfam comic? I mean it doesn't have to be related to it. I just would like a Wally and Dick comic

Hey I kind of want to know. Kori generally is 6'4 to 6'7. Do you guys think it might be hard to sleep with a person that tall?

----------


## 9th.

I've been reading Dicks Rebirth run that I bought a couple of weeks ago and I gotta say I'm really enjoying this. I don't remember being too fond of it when it dropped, looking back I think I was just salty Grayson ended.

My only gripe was that monster part they added in, I didn't care for that at all.

----------


## Murrocko

> At least they are aware that Redondo is the driving force behind the book over Taylor's story and are letting Redondo flex his muscles.


As of right now, Redondo is the only reason I'm still picking up the title.

----------


## Lal

> As of right now, Redondo is the only reason I'm still picking up the title.


I actually thought it was okay for a tie-in issue, but if it was meant to attract new Nightwing readers, they definitely should have gotten a different artist.

----------


## Pohzee

> I actually thought it was okay for a tie-in issue, but if it was meant to attract new Nightwing readers, they definitely should have gotten a different artist.


Redondo not being on this cross-over is yet another reason to skip it.

----------


## dropkickjake

> Makes me wonder; what does Dick drink? 
> 
> I can't see him drinking gutter beer like PBR or Bud Lite, nor can I see him drinking some rich man's booze with gold flakes and the blood of virgins in it.
> 
> But micro brews? I can totally see him drinking those.


I could actually see him drinking bud/miller/et c. Could see him as the guy who just goes to the bar and orders "I'll take a beer," and enjoying it no matter what it is. Sorta spun as a non-pretentious move, if that makes sense. Then, when Wally or someone gets him a microbrew going "Wow thats really good!" but never making it a point to order it again.

Could also see pretty much all of the batfamily but Jason and maybe Steph being teetotal.


#84 was fine. Not excited about a 3 issue crossover though.

----------


## Godlike13

84 started really wordy, but got progressively better as the action started. Wasnt bad. Im just not really into this Future State Magistrate stuff. I feel like they could have grabbed a burner phone and told Dick about Oracle. This is kind of the problem when they use Oracle poorly and too heavily as the Batfamilys 411. Now all of a sudden they cant communicate with one another if she cant do it for them.

----------


## AmiMizuno

I been thinking Dick generally sells well right? Do you guys think that Dick should ever get another solo title? Or at least like a Dick and Wally Comic? It doesn't have to be cannon but I often thought it would be cool

----------


## HsssH

Nightwing and The Titans.

----------


## Rac7d*

> I been thinking Dick generally sells well right? Do you guys think that Dick should ever get another solo title? Or at least like a Dick and Wally Comic? It doesn't have to be cannon but I often thought it would be cool


For year we have discussed a Nightwing brave and the bold book featuring a different friend each issue
Robin
Oracle
Wally
Donna
Roy
Starfire
Midnighter
Deathstroke
Blockbuster
Tempest
Superman
Batman
Annual everyone

----------


## Ascended

> I could actually see him drinking bud/miller/et c. Could see him as the guy who just goes to the bar and orders "I'll take a beer," and enjoying it no matter what it is. Sorta spun as a non-pretentious move, if that makes sense. Then, when Wally or someone gets him a microbrew going "Wow thats really good!" but never making it a point to order it again.
> 
> Could also see pretty much all of the batfamily but Jason and maybe Steph being teetotal.


I definitely think Dick isn't pretentious and not overly picky about his drink, but I imagine life in the mansion has rubbed off on him a little bit and he has *some* standards, too. I think he'd drink a "peasant's beer" without complaint and be happy with it, but if he has a choice he'd go for something a little higher end, but not top shelf.

I think Bruce would drink socially as part of his "playboy" disguise, but otherwise yeah, he's teetotal. I suspect Tim largely doesn't like the taste of alcohol, nor the sensation of being tipsy/drunk. Cass wouldn't drink, I don't think.

I can see Babs enjoying a glass of wine, and maybe letting herself get a little drunk with Dinah as her drinking buddy/bad influence.




> I been thinking Dick generally sells well right? Do you guys think that Dick should ever get another solo title? Or at least like a Dick and Wally Comic? It doesn't have to be cannon but I often thought it would be cool


I don't think the title sells well enough to totally justify a second solo, but a "Nightwing & the Titans" type of book, where Dick's *a* main character with his name on the cover but is still part of a wider roster, is actually a strong marketing strategy.

----------


## Iclifton

I liked it. Less so than a typical issue due to it feeling like an obligatory crossover to a story that I am not a huge fan of. But I loved seeing Clancy and thought the interaction between Dick and Bruce was really solid. They felt like equals. Not a fan of Robbi`s art and there was a little too much narration for my taste. 

In regards to Barbara, I thought since everything was canon this included her New 52 and Burnside runs. Hasn`t she been operating as Batgirl prior to this? How come they are concerned with her Spine all of the sudden?

----------


## Digifiend

You didn't read her Joker War tie-in? Joker attacked her, and she ripped out the implant. It was fixed, but if it takes more damage, she could end up destroying it, which would permanently put her back in the wheelchair. That's why her new costume includes spinal support, and why she's very rarely using it, being Oracle most of the time instead and letting Steph and Cass be her proxies. She originally got the implant off panel just before the New 52 run started (I like to think she was arranging this towards the end of the Steph Batgirl series, where she served as Steph's mentor but spent time away on Birds of Prey duty) and her time previously being Oracle was never completely erased, just shortened.

----------


## Daedalus

> I been thinking Dick generally sells well right? Do you guys think that Dick should ever get another solo title? Or at least like a Dick and Wally Comic? It doesn't have to be cannon but I often thought it would be cool


I don't want to dilute the character through multiple comics, and I don't want to have Taylor consult with others moving forward, so I'm happy with just this title. Wally can come in eventually and be around for an issue or an arc, which would be great. Didn't Taylor respond to a fan cryptically regarding this possibility? That issue may well be in the plans.

----------


## Iclifton

> You didn't read her Joker War tie-in? Joker attacked her, and she ripped out the implant. It was fixed, but if it takes more damage, she could end up destroying it, which would permanently put her back in the wheelchair. That's why her new costume includes spinal support, and why she's very rarely using it, being Oracle most of the time instead and letting Steph and Cass be her proxies. She originally got the implant off panel just before the New 52 run started (I like to think she was arranging this towards the end of the Steph Batgirl series, where she served as Steph's mentor but spent time away on Birds of Prey duty) and her time previously being Oracle was never completely erased, just shortened.


No, I was not a huge fan of Tynions run and have not read any tie ins. Thanks for the explanation tho!

----------


## Vordan

After reading today’s issue I’m kind of curious if tying in was something Taylor was forced to do or if he wanted to. It’s very self aware about how out of place the tie in feels given Dick *literally* just said he was making Bludhaven his priority only to now zip over to Gotham. Overall it was fine.

----------


## Iclifton

> After reading today’s issue I’m kind of curious if tying in was something Taylor was forced to do or if he wanted to. It’s very self aware about how out of place the tie in feels given Dick *literally* just said he was making Bludhaven his priority only to now zip over to Gotham. Overall it was fine.


Pretty sure it was mandatory for the entire Bat line.

I don`t think he fought it but I did not get the feeling it was his idea.

----------


## Murrocko

It was a fine issue. I have zero interest in this fear state stuff, but really happy to see Clancy back. Now let's get Amy Rohrbach back into the mix, maybe even Sonia Zucco pushing Melinda off a bridge.

----------


## HsssH

> You didn't read her Joker War tie-in? Joker attacked her, and she ripped out the implant. It was fixed, but if it takes more damage, she could end up destroying it, which would permanently put her back in the wheelchair. That's why her new costume includes spinal support, and why she's very rarely using it, being Oracle most of the time instead and letting Steph and Cass be her proxies. She originally got the implant off panel just before the New 52 run started (I like to think she was arranging this towards the end of the Steph Batgirl series, where she served as Steph's mentor but spent time away on Birds of Prey duty) and her time previously being Oracle was never completely erased, just shortened.


So why can't they make another implant?

----------


## Lal

> I don't want to dilute the character through multiple comics, and I don't want to have Taylor consult with others moving forward, so I'm happy with just this title. Wally can come in eventually and be around for an issue or an arc, which would be great. Didn't Taylor respond to a fan cryptically regarding this possibility? That issue may well be in the plans.


Taylor hinted a Dick-Wally meeting soon, and some believe it would be in Superman son of Kal-El #4.
I prefer them to meet without Jon, but it would be great to see them interacting again.

----------


## Lal

> So why can't they make another implant?


It's supposedly too problematic. Her spine can't undergo another surgery.
Which is more or less "DC want Babs to be Oracle again most of the time so that Steph and Cass could be the main Batgirls".

----------


## Restingvoice

https://www.polygon.com/comics/22679...s-oral-history
*Dan DiDio
DC vice president starting in 2002, DC co-publisher from 2010-2020
*
I can’t tell you how many discussions we had about how we can get Nightwing back in his blue costume, because the red seems so weird. And I’m like, if you’re focused on colors, you’re losing character. The color doesn’t matter. The story and the characters [are] what you should be focusing on. And if you’re worried about the character color, because in your mind that’s the only way you can see him, then you’re probably not getting where he should be.

Nightwing was one of the best launches! That’s why I was like, “stop talking about the colors. You’re doing a great job!"

----------


## Frontier

The red was fine but he looked better in blue.

----------


## Badou

He said before they put him in red because he thought all the former Robins should be in red. That was his reasoning.

----------


## Godlike13

You can worry about both, because the story and the character wasn’t being done particularly well either with the launch of the New 52. It’s odd that he thinks it was. What’s even more odd is now all of a sudden he doesn’t understand the importance of consistent branding. All the characters they had ripping him off were wearing red, what’s more this was Dick’s return to the role. Putting him red demonstrated that they weren’t thinking about the character, and instead put him in red for no reason except a whim. They weren’t thinking about the character. They were creating conformity with the Robins, and Nightwing had to bite the bullet being the only one with out “Red” baked in his title.

He’s trying to make littler of the issue to better dismiss it and act like they were producing good content despite the color. I usually try to give Didio the benefit of the doubt, but I call bullshit on that statement.

----------


## Ascended

> Hes trying to make littler of the issue to better dismiss it and act like they were producing good content despite the color. I usually try to give Didio the benefit of the doubt, but I call bullshit on that statement.


Same. I try to look at things from a business perspective and attempt to understand the behind-the-scenes reasoning in the industry (even when I disagree with it as a fan), and with a solid grasp of basic business principals you can normally see where someone is coming from and what the drivers are in a decision. But when it comes to Didio and Nightwing, everything he says is suspect. I'm not one of those fans who thinks Didio was the devil or anything, but I'm convinced that nearly every choice he made concerning Dick, Wally, and to a lesser extent the other NTT, was totally slanted by his personal bias. Nothing else makes any sense to me.

I didn't always agree with Didio's choices, but I could usually understand why he was making them. But with Nightwing, the crap he did simply didn't seem to be supported by business logic. Even making huge allowances for the fact that this industry has its own quirks and tricks that we're not privy to, the way Dick was often handled under Didio made no sense.

----------


## Restingvoice

> You can worry about both, because the story and the character wasnt being done particularly well either with the launch of the New 52. Its odd that he thinks it was.


Was it doing well financially?

----------


## Badou

Yeah, the New 52 Nightwing book sold well. It was helped that its first few volumes tied in so heavily with Batman's Court of Owls story which was the best selling New 52 story overall from any book. The big problem with the Owls overall regardless of how you feel about them is that the Court of Owls story wasn't a Dick Grayson story. It was very much written around Bruce, which made sense because it was written in Batman, and those first few New 52 Nightwing volumes read very awkward to me looking back. Then despite changing Dick's background a lot it didn't really become this defining story that it probably should have been for Dick in the end. So Dick is kind of stuck in this weird position of constantly being dragged back to the Owls with no GREAT Court of Owls story centered on Dick to make it worth it. So now Dick has this weird relationship with the Owls that feels muddled every time they throw them into one of his stories.

----------


## Vordan

Nightwing benefitted from the reboot sales wise, it’s just that DC completely failed to build him up as a solo character because Higgins run kept getting derailed by tie-ins. The more things change…

----------


## Lady Nightwing

The first Webtoon with Dick in it has finally been posted, for those of us who are to cheap to pay for early release. It was pretty cute

----------


## Frontier

> The first Webtoon with Dick in it has finally been posted, for those of us who are to cheap to pay for early release. It was pretty cute


And surprisingly did not emphasize his butt  :Stick Out Tongue: .

----------


## Restingvoice

> And surprisingly did not emphasize his butt .


The butt in the fandom tend to only show up in pin-up, porn, or specific comedy. It doesn't show up in Bat fam fan comics or regular art, not even in the shipping art if it's more about the romance or cuteness.

----------


## Lady Nightwing

> And surprisingly did not emphasize his butt .


I was pleasantly surprised. Also he wasn't eating cereal, so that's a big plus too

----------


## Rac7d*

> The butt in the fandom tend to only show up in pin-up, porn, or specific comedy. It doesn't show up in Bat fam fan comics or regular art, not even in the shipping art if it's more about the romance or cuteness.


It depends if you see enough Grayson art the donk appears quite frequently

----------


## Restingvoice

Robin #6 preview



Blue Shrike is the brother of Yellow Shrike... Omigosh they really Discount-Sub-Zero-ing Shrike. There's the mentor, the yellow, and now the brother, the blue.

----------


## Frontier

> Robin #6 preview
> 
> 
> 
> Blue Shrike is the brother of Yellow Shrike... Omigosh they really Discount-Sub-Zero-ing Shrike. There's the mentor, the yellow, and now the brother, the blue.


I want a Red Shrike now.

----------


## Drako

There is a bunch of Nightwing villains in that preview.

----------


## Rac7d*

> There is a bunch of Nightwing villains in that preview.


A chunk of the contenders have been assassins and thieves from Dixon run

----------


## Lady Nightwing

There's rumours that there's Red Hood movie in development for HBO and that it will tie in with the Nightwing movie. Screenshot_20210923-222118_Twitter.jpg

----------


## Rakiduam

> There's rumours that there's Red Hood movie in development for HBO and that it will tie in with the Nightwing movie. Screenshot_20210923-222118_Twitter.jpg


Well of course, they need the complete set, it's not like DC thinks any of this characters are worth anything by themself. 

Just look at Nightwing book, if he can't have his own book why would he have his own movie. Fantastic job in making the character an A list.

----------


## Drako

> There's rumours that there's Red Hood movie in development for HBO and that it will tie in with the Nightwing movie. Attachment 114031


The source of this is "The Hashtag Show" which is an extremely unreliable.
I didn't see any other site reporting this.

----------


## Lady Nightwing

Ah, thanks for that. I didn't actually read the article. Whenever I click the main cbr site on mobile I get a load of invasive ads.

I honestly don't know if I should be scared or excited about a Nightwing movie given DCs track record.

----------


## Rac7d*

> Ah, thanks for that. I didn't actually read the article. Whenever I click the main cbr site on mobile I get a load of invasive ads.
> 
> I honestly don't know if I should be scared or excited about a Nightwing movie given DCs track record.


It’s overdue and I want not

DCFandome can’t get here fast enough

----------


## Vordan

Looking forward to a new GK trailer at Fandome. Don’t think a Nightwing movie is happening, not any time soon anyway. I suspect Dick will be Robin over in the Reevesverse before that happens.

----------


## Frontier

> Looking forward to a new GK trailer at Fandome. Don’t think a Nightwing movie is happening, not any time soon anyway. I suspect Dick will be Robin over in the Reevesverse before that happens.


I've seen people speculate that we'll see a Nightwing/Red Hood gameplay video for GK since they used Robin and Batgirl the first time around.

----------


## Rac7d*

I’m hearing rumors of a red hood movie which will then be followed by a Nightwing film
No source but I think even miss grace Randolph is hinting at such news

----------


## BloodOps

As much as I would like a Nightwing movie..

Grace Rudolph is a hack and not a reliable leaker, how she has such an "audience" is troubling.

----------


## Vordan

> I’m hearing rumors of a red hood movie which will then be followed by a Nightwing film
> No source but I think even miss grace Randolph is hinting at such news


Lmao Grace doesn’t know anything beyond what Snyder told her, she’s gotten more wrong than right. The source for the Nightwing movie is the hashtag show which also doesn’t have any major scoops to boast of. I don’t see a Nightwing movie happening to be frank.

----------


## Restingvoice

> As much as I would like a Nightwing movie..
> 
> Grace Rudolph is a hack and not a reliable leaker, how she has such an "audience" is troubling.


She's pretty, so that's one part of it. No really, a lot of youtube or twitch watcher admitted they start watching someone because they're good looking. 

The rest I don't know since I only watch her when I binge reaction videos

In the mean time Deathstroke Inc #1 preview is out with Grant Wilson flashback that may clarify if it's Judas Contract or Lazarus Contract in this new continuity!



...

THAT DOES NOT CLARIFY ANYTHING AT ALL! 
That literally can be both, just with Cyborg now.

Actually, since skinny Waller is there, this looks like this could be one of those flashes where a current character remember all their previous version, so it's still unreliable for what actually happens, with the super soldier injection scene being the only sure canon flashback in this continuity

----------


## Drako

> I don’t see a Nightwing movie happening to be frank.


Why?

They started production of his movie and attached a director to it before everything went off rails. And that was before HBO Max was a thing. 

Just this fact shown that a movie for him is within the realms of possibility.

----------


## Rakiduam

> Lmao Grace doesnt know anything beyond what Snyder told her, shes gotten more wrong than right. The source for the Nightwing movie is the hashtag show which also doesnt have any major scoops to boast of. I dont see a Nightwing movie happening to be frank.


Not a blockbuster film, but a streaming movie that are long pilots episodes to fill the library and everybody forgets the next week, it is possible.

----------


## Rac7d*

> Lmao Grace doesn’t know anything beyond what Snyder told her, she’s gotten more wrong than right. The source for the Nightwing movie is the hashtag show which also doesn’t have any major scoops to boast of. I don’t see a Nightwing movie happening to be frank.


She been right half the time 

I mostly listen because she breaks down how corporations in Hollywood make the choices they do in simplistic terms

----------


## dietrich

Grace isn't a hack and isn't a reliable leaker. Source or examples plz. Grace majority of times in my experience gets it right.

@vordan I know you dislike Zack but your comment is nonsensical. If Zack Snyder is Grace's source then that means she's very reliable since Zach isn't one to spread lies or rumours. He generally tells it straight even when not in his favour.

I believe we will have a Nightwing movie sooner rather than later.
I don't see Reeves bringing in Robin. I see WB pushing Dick more as Nightwing than Robin.

----------


## dietrich

> She been right half the time 
> 
> I mostly listen because she breaks down how corporations in Hollywood make the choices they do in simplistic terms


Indeed. Her breakdown of the business structure of DC, WB and AT&T made me understand the reason why DC and WB always drop the ball on the obvious plays and why others routines beat them to the mainstream punch in comics ideas they pioneered.

Explained the disconnect bwtween the two divisions.

----------


## Lal

Seems like Nightwing fear state is selling pretty well online, and is currently in 3rd place after X-men and Batman - https://www.comixology.com/comics-best-sellers

----------


## dietrich

> Seems like Nightwing fear state is selling pretty well online, and is currently in 3rd place after X-men and Batman - https://www.comixology.com/comics-best-sellers


Good to hear. Pissed me off when i saw several blogs asking followers to not buy the issue because it had Babs as batgirl. Claiming that supporting the issue is encouraging ableism.

Nearly made me buy 2 issues just to spite em.

----------


## ZuLuLu

> Good to hear. Pissed me off when i saw several blogs asking followers to not buy the issue because it had Babs as batgirl. Claiming that supporting the issue is encouraging ableism.
> 
> Nearly made me buy 2 issues just to spite em.


I didn't know this.

 I wonder if they cause a backlash and Babs fans bought more copies, because yesterday Nightwing was ranked a few spots lower.

----------


## dietrich

> I didn't know this.
> 
>  I wonder if they cause a backlash and Babs fans bought more copies, because yesterday Nightwing was ranked a few spots lower.


Honestly couldn't say. I'm not a Bab's fan. The only batgirl run I followed was Steph's and that was because it had Damian.

Just want to thwart manipulative selfish fans

----------


## Lal

> Honestly couldn't say. I'm not a Bab's fan. The only batgirl run I followed was Steph's and that was because it had Damian.
> 
> Just want to thwart manipulative selfish fans


That's so weird. I guess they are the same fans who also attack Taylor on Twitter. 
I wonder how many of these fans usually buy this series.
Babs has been Batgirl for a decade now, and they remember to complain about ablism now? 

Also, all the batgirls are going to appear in Nightwing 86, so I wonder if those fans would still call to boycott Nightwing 86, or if it would suddenly become ok to buy Nightwing if Cass/Steph appear as Batgirls.

----------


## Vordan

> Why?
> 
> They started production of his movie and attached a director to it before everything went off rails. And that was before HBO Max was a thing. 
> 
> Just this fact shown that a movie for him is within the realms of possibility.


Reeves. I think Reeves is going to want to do Dick Robin, and wasnt the Nightwing movie out on hold specifically because of Reeves? Plus Titans already has a Nightwing and I cant see them doing another Dick Grayson unconnected to either the Reevesverse or the Titans show.

----------


## SiegePerilous02

> Reeves. I think Reeves is going to want to do Dick Robin, and wasn’t the Nightwing movie out on hold specifically because of Reeves? Plus Titans already has a Nightwing and I can’t see them doing another Dick Grayson unconnected to either the Reevesverse or the Titans show.


I hope Reeves wants to use Dick. It's kind of frustrating not knowing where he stands on him yet. I'd like to know if we have a legit shot of getting Robin in a film series again or if we're gonna get another tired "Robin has no place in Batman's world and it would compromise my art!!" stance that Burton, Nolan and Bale had.

Which would be his prerogative, but still...

----------


## Ascended

> I believe we will have a Nightwing movie sooner rather than later.
> I don't see Reeves bringing in Robin. I see WB pushing Dick more as Nightwing than Robin.


I think a Nightwing film is more likely than some of us here believe but I have serious doubts about WB's ability. How many films did they announce that never happened, or have been in development limbo for nearly a decade?

Hell, Nightwing is included in that list. 

And of the films WB has managed to get to screen, how many of them have been awful?

Nightwing could happen. Dick's ability to pull in revenue is proven, as is the fact that big budget superhero films can be successful without marquee names like Batman and Superman. But there's a big difference between "potential" and "really happening." 

Given WB's record I'd struggle to get excited about a Nightwing film anyway. The best WB can muster up is stuff like Aquaman and Shazam, which were fine, but roughly as good as an "average" Marvel film, and the MCU doesn't exactly churn out Citizen Cane level quality.

----------


## dietrich

> That's so weird. I guess they are the same fans who also attack Taylor on Twitter. 
> I wonder how many of these fans usually buy this series.
> Babs has been Batgirl for a decade now, and they remember to complain about ablism now? 
> 
> Also, all the batgirls are going to appear in Nightwing 86, so I wonder if those fans would still call to boycott Nightwing 86, or if it would suddenly become ok to buy Nightwing if Cass/Steph appear as Batgirls.


I seriously doubt those calling for a boycott were ever buying Taylors Nightwing in the 1st place. 
Babs has always been able to walk in the run.

I don't believe having the others as Batgirls will do the trick. 
The post was after Batgirls was announced so live and let live isn't a mantra they favour.

I wouldn't worry about these folks since Nightwing is going strong despite their best efforts

----------


## Restingvoice

They're not. From what I've read they haven't been buying any since New 52 started and she started walking. Anything that depict Barbara walking they don't buy, and anyone agree to depict her walking whether it's author or editor they consider ableist too for supporting DC's decision to make her walk. 

They know there are authors that have quit DC and spoke against decisions they can't stand (for example the female creators who quit because DC keeps Eddie Berganza) so anyone who accepts the job for depicting abled Barbara is considered as ableist as the decision maker.

Which doesn't explain why only Taylor gets harrased

----------


## Godlike13

Pfft, they weren’t buying even before she started walking. They’re just trying to weaponize isms.

----------


## Ascended

> Pfft, they weren’t buying even before she started walking. They’re just trying to weaponize isms.


Exactly. I actually prefer Babs in the chair and I think DC made a mistake resetting her status, but those people are out of their damn minds.

----------


## AmiMizuno

Overall it's the same people who will complain about anything. I mean I feel it's the same poeple who don't know anything about the character. Babs is the most popular Batgirl so they generally don't have the others come on in other media. I think they just wanted to complain because they would have to complain other the other shows where she isn't in a wheelchair. I don't mind if she is Batgirl. I just want other Batgirls to also shine

Somehow many of these guys have it in their head they can get others fired and they get people to do with they want. They probably don't know anything about Barbara Gordon besides her being Oracle. I mean if they want her has Oracle there are several things they can watch or read

----------


## AmiMizuno

> Why?
> 
> They started production of his movie and attached a director to it before everything went off rails. And that was before HBO Max was a thing. 
> 
> Just this fact shown that a movie for him is within the realms of possibility.





> Not a blockbuster film, but a streaming movie that are long pilots episodes to fill the library and everybody forgets the next week, it is possible.


I mean there is also the possibility of that animated series too. So I hope we get both. A streaming animated movie and series then a movie?

----------


## Vordan

Kinda feel like an animated Nightwing movie might be far off since they’re only just starting a new animated universe. My bet is that unlike the DCAMU which jumped ahead, this new animated universe will actually show us Dick and Bruce meeting for the first time and Dick becoming Robin. Damn there’s actually a lot of potential content coming up that might star Dick as Robin now that I think about it.

----------


## John Venus

> That's so weird. I guess they are the same fans who also attack Taylor on Twitter. 
> I wonder how many of these fans usually buy this series.
> Babs has been Batgirl for a decade now, and they remember to complain about ablism now? 
> 
> Also, all the batgirls are going to appear in Nightwing 86, so I wonder if those fans would still call to boycott Nightwing 86, or if it would suddenly become ok to buy Nightwing if Cass/Steph appear as Batgirls.


I have been hearing about ableism complaints since Oracle: The Cure came out which _looked_ like was going to restore Babs as Batgirl but took a U-turn and they soon relaunched the Batgirl title with Steph as Batgirl.  The gritty horror inspired Nu52 book that Gail Simone did did not appeal to the readership of the time but the lighter Burnside Batgirl did appeal to younger teen audiences. This is an entirely different demographic from the Millenials who have been reading Babs and Oracle since the 90's and much of the 00's who were left alienated during the Didio era editorial and the Nu52.  

I'm guessing that some people were hoping that Didio being fired, the changes in editorial and literally seeing Babs back in the chair would be a sign she was moving back to the Oracle persona permanently and felt DC pulled a fast one by putting her back in the cowl again.  

I agree that Tom Taylor doesn't deserve the vitriol. I follow him on FB and he's been nothing but nice and supportive of all who follow his work.  It's not his fault, he's just following what editorial dictated.  The comments I've seen from people who are mad at him have so far been very immature and childish.

----------


## Drako

> I agree that Tom Taylor doesn't deserve the vitriol. I follow him on FB and he's been nothing but nice and supportive of all who follow his work.  It's not his fault, he's just following what editorial dictated.  The comments I've seen from people who are mad at him have so far been very immature and childish.


He still take his time to respond to this people that accuse him of something he has no control over, which i find a waste of time of his part. Talking with this professional outrage people from Twitter is something i have no interest in doing it.

Anyways, i think an Nightwing movie is something we could actually see. Since Warner bros is the most reactionary company out there, if Batgirl is a success we can expect them to green light every Bat related project pichted to them.

----------


## AmiMizuno

> Kinda feel like an animated Nightwing movie might be far off since they’re only just starting a new animated universe. My bet is that unlike the DCAMU which jumped ahead, this new animated universe will actually show us Dick and Bruce meeting for the first time and Dick becoming Robin. Damn there’s actually a lot of potential content coming up that might star Dick as Robin now that I think about it.


I mean they can still do a Nightwing movie just not in the same universe but wouldn't make sense. Yea the Long Halloween animated movie director said he wanted to do Dark Victory. But if not they will probably do a Robin year one. This makes me wonder. If they will actually do a Teen Titan movie from their first year. Or if when they skip the Titan year one and have him be Nightwing

----------


## Vordan

Taylors problem is that hes marketed himself as someone who likes to pander to Twitter and Tumblr with fanservice, but now he cant give them what they want. So they turn on him as they are wont to do and bite the hand that feeds them. Tynion leaving Twitter is one of the smartest things hes done, youre on Twitter until you make it as a big writer, and then its best to just hire someone to handle your account for marketing and leave social media.



> I mean they can still do a Nightwing movie just not in the same universe but wouldn't make sense. Yea the Long Halloween animated movie director said he wanted to do Dark Victory. But if not they will probably do a Robin year one. This makes me wonder. If they will actually do a Teen Titan movie from their first year. Or if when they skip the Titan year one and have him be Nightwing


They could its true, but odds arent likely imo. Would be cool though. Dont think the Tomorrowverse will do time jumps, Im hoping well actually get to see this animated universe unfold without big gaps like Young Justice has become.

----------


## AmiMizuno

Yea I think they most likely will show us how he became Nightwing. And this mights me wonder will they go with the NTT one or like the BTAS and have him and Bruce argue

----------


## Drako

Next Teen Titans graphic novel by Kami Garcia and Gabriel Picolo is about Dick and Damian as Robins.

----------


## Grayson - The Dark Heir

I really don't like that conceptually. Could still be good, but goes against several preferences of mine so it bums me out.

----------


## Rac7d*

> Next Teen Titans graphic novel by Kami Garcia and Gabriel Picolo is about Dick and Damian as Robins.


That’s a instant preorder even if it’s trash

----------


## Badou

I feel like the series would just be better if it was just about Dick as Robin. Just weird to include Dick and Damian as Robin in what is a OGN series so heavily inspired by the cartoon.

----------


## Lal

> I feel like the series would just be better if it was just about Dick as Robin. Just weird to include Dick and Damian as Robin in what is a OGN series so heavily inspired by the cartoon.


It's slightly weird, but maybe Dick will debut as Nightwing there, while Damian stays Robin.

Anyway, I'd like to read a story about them as brothers and see what this series has planned for them.

----------


## HsssH

I think that Dick/Damian connection is one of the best things that happened to both of these characters so I'm all for DC focusing on it.

----------


## L.H.

This series is being great, so far, and I'm totally on board with this. 

Let's see how it plays out.

----------


## Godlike13

> I think that Dick/Damian connection is one of the best things that happened to both of these characters so I'm all for DC focusing on it.


That connection works on the principle that Dick isnt Robin anymore, and can reverse his relationship with Bruce. Both being Robin is a much different landscape that I think is probably gonna play out more like Tim and Damians relationship, or even Dick and Jasons, then the Dick and Damian relationship we know.

----------


## Badou

Yeah, I imagine it will be more of a new Robin infringing on the old Robin kind of dynamic. So expect there to be animosity or a rivalry, which is very different to what Dick and Damian's relationship is like in the comics.

----------


## Drako

> Yeah, I imagine it will be more of a new Robin infringing on the old Robin kind of dynamic. So expect there to be animosity or a rivalry, which is very different to what Dick and Damian's relationship is like in the comics.


When the relationship started, they had friction. It's not like him and Damian were buddies from the get-go.
Seeing the evolution of their friendship was what made so special.

----------


## Morgoth

Damian/Dick relationship in main continuity is dictated by the fact that it was Dick who took Damian into the Bat-Family, made him his Robin while he was Batman, helped him become a better man, and essentially played the role of his father while Bruce himself was presumed dead. It is this story that makes their dynamics so special.
It is very difficult to expect similar dynamics in the rest of stories, diiferent media, and so on.

----------


## Godlike13

Their starting points were still completely different. The evolution of their friendship is still predicated on their position within the dynamic. I have a very hard time seeing it replicated under this circumstance.

----------


## Konja7

> Their starting points were still completely different. The evolution of their friendship is still predicated on their position within the dynamic. I have a very hard time seeing it replicated under this circumstance.


Yeah. The dynamic will be different in thid Robin OGN. 

I'm pretty sure there will be a conflict between a New Robin and Old Robin about the Robin identity.

Such changes from main continuity are extremely common in OGNs. After all, these stories are in a totally new continuity.

----------


## Badou

> When the relationship started, they had friction. It's not like him and Damian were buddies from the get-go.
> Seeing the evolution of their friendship was what made so special.


That was very different. Dick was never threatened by Damian, like how a Tim was, and was the one that welcomed him and tried to be there like how Bruce was for him when he was Robin. Their dynamic was very much a mentor trying to teach and understand his mentee while Dick at the same time was trying to fit into his new role as Batman. They had friction but it was never based off of Dick feeling like his position was being threatened. I kind of expect that to be what their dynamic will be like in this OGN because you can't really have the same dynamic as the comics when Bruce is acting as Batman for both. Like it wouldn't surprise me at all if it is what leads Dick to break away and become Nightwing in this continuity maybe.

----------


## Drako

> Their starting points were still completely different. The evolution of their friendship is still predicated on their position within the dynamic. I have a very hard time seeing it replicated under this circumstance.


I doubt the writer even want to replicate something we already saw. It's not the same universe, we don't need to see the same road to their friendship again.

----------


## Drako

Someone from Checkmate compared this Daemon Rose, Lois Lane little brother, to Nightwing saying that this new dude is pretty good.

----------


## Restingvoice

> Someone from Checkmate compared this Daemon Rose, Lois Lane little brother, to Nightwing saying that this new dude is pretty good.


Ooh he cute too, with a combo of cool/cute name. He has my attention.




> It's slightly weird, but maybe Dick will debut as Nightwing there, while Damian stays Robin.
> 
> Anyway, I'd like to read a story about them as brothers and see what this series has planned for them.


So they're Jason-ing them. They do like to switch it around huh.

----------


## HsssH

I guess its good that new characters are now compared to Nightwing to make them sound cool/relevant.

----------


## Frontier

> I doubt the writer even want to replicate something we already saw. It's not the same universe, we don't need to see the same road to their friendship again.


I assume they'll write it more focusing on a sibling relationship between the older and younger brother, which is why they're both Robin. 



> Someone from Checkmate compared this Daemon Rose, Lois Lane little brother, to Nightwing saying that this new dude is pretty good.


Cool for Dick, but why does this character exist?

----------


## Restingvoice

> I assume they'll write it more focusing on a sibling relationship between the older and younger brother, which is why they're both Robin. 
> 
> Cool for Dick, but why does this character exist?


Coz Bendis can't use Secret Agent Grayson? He's fighting Deathstrokes.

----------


## Frontier

> Coz Bendis can't use Secret Agent Grayson? He's fighting Deathstrokes.


And using guns...actually he does kind of look like Dick, come to think.

----------


## Drako

> I guess its good that new characters are now compared to Nightwing to make them sound cool/relevant.


Meanwhile, Raptor got stomped by the most boring character in the Robin's book, a little bald kid with gloves.

----------


## HsssH

I guess in Williamson's mind that makes the bald kid cool. Everything I have read from him so far has been very frustrating. Some pages are great, but then he writes something very bad/stupid/cringe on the very next page. I'm starting to worry about him becoming next Batman writer.

----------


## Drako

> I guess in Williamson's mind that makes the bald kid cool. Everything I have read from him so far has been very frustrating. Some pages are great, but then he writes something very bad/stupid/cringe on the very next page. I'm starting to worry about him becoming next Batman writer.


I don't know. I liked some of his work with Flash, i loved Speed Metal and his Robin book is enjoyable, but the fact that he choose to put a bunch of Nightwing villains to be fodder to his OCs in this tournament kinda pisses me off.

I also don't like the fact that he found a excuse to use Damian killing people with no consequences.

----------


## HsssH

I guess his long term plan is to have guys like bald kid and Respawn as Damian's villains so they need to look "legit". But its not like many people care that one of them killed Raptor and those that do care are probably guys like us who didn't find that cool at all.




> I also don't like the fact that he found a excuse to use Damian killing people with no consequences.


Oh yeah, I was thinking about dropping the book entirely when he did the whole "killing is ok if there are no consequences" bit.

----------


## Rac7d*

> I assume they'll write it more focusing on a sibling relationship between the older and younger brother, which is why they're both Robin. 
> 
> Cool for Dick, but why does this character exist?


Dc is finally building its world of intelligence agencies. Back whenGrayson ended, their could be no future for the genre in DC becuase DC lacked S.h.I.e.l.d

----------


## Rac7d*

> I guess his long term plan is to have guys like bald kid and Respawn as Damian's villains so they need to look "legit". But its not like many people care that one of them killed Raptor and those that do care are probably guys like us who didn't find that cool at all.
> 
> 
> 
> Oh yeah, I was thinking about dropping the book entirely when he did the whole "killing is ok if there are no consequences" bit.


It’s like when they fight zombies

----------


## Frontier

> Oh yeah, I was thinking about dropping the book entirely when he did the whole "killing is ok if there are no consequences" bit.


I mean, if he's willing to address and develop on the emotional fallout of that in future arcs, I think I can buy it. 



> Dc is finally building its world of intelligence agencies. Back whenGrayson ended, their could be no future for the genre in DC becuase DC lacked S.h.I.e.l.d


Argus?

----------


## Vordan

> I mean, if he's willing to address and develop on the emotional fallout of that in future arcs, I think I can buy it. 
> 
> Argus?


If they had actually bothered to put out an ARGUS book that could give us a consistent chain of command maybe that would’ve stuck.

----------


## Frontier

> If they had actually bothered to put out an ARGUS book that could give us a consistent chain of command maybe that would’ve stuck.


Was that not what Team Seven was? Not that I read it or even think anyone remembers that book  :Stick Out Tongue: .

----------


## AmiMizuno

I'm curious do you guys think if Dick were to leave the Batfam things would be different? Because many times both characters and fans consider Dick the heart of the Batfam. Not only that but Bruce is more willing to listen to him than any other Batfam other than Alfred. What would happen without Dick?

----------


## Rac7d*

> I mean, if he's willing to address and develop on the emotional fallout of that in future arcs, I think I can buy it. 
> 
> Argus?


when was the last time Argus did somthing

----------


## Frontier

> when was the last time Argus did somthing


Arrest some people  :Stick Out Tongue: ?

----------


## Vordan

I still would’ve loved a _Nightwing: Agent of Argus_ book where Dick operates out of Bludhaven but also goes globe trotting that would’ve been a great way to flesh out Argus and given Dick a whole corner of the DCU Bruce can’t steal from him.

----------


## Rac7d*

> I still would’ve loved a _Nightwing: Agent of Argus_ book where Dick operates out of Bludhaven but also goes globe trotting that would’ve been a great way to flesh out Argus and given Dick a whole corner of the DCU Bruce can’t steal from him.


i can see this being his future 30 years from now

----------


## Konja7

> I'm curious do you guys think if Dick were to leave the Batfam things would be different? Because many times both characters and fans consider Dick the heart of the Batfam. Not only that but Bruce is more willing to listen to him than any other Batfam other than Alfred. What would happen without Dick?


They will likely be fine. There will be drama, but they would overcome it. 

Writers would find a way for characters to adapt to the change.

----------


## WonderNight

> They will likely be fine. There will be drama, but they would overcome it. 
> 
> Writers would find a way for characters to adapt to the change.


Didn't we already see this with dick post forever evil?

----------


## WonderNight

> Someone from Checkmate compared this Daemon Rose, Lois Lane little brother, to Nightwing saying that this new dude is pretty good.


Yeap that's an agent 37 clone.

----------


## Rac7d*

> They will likely be fine. There will be drama, but they would overcome it. 
> 
> Writers would find a way for characters to adapt to the change.


He just did that with the ric saga

----------


## AmiMizuno

I kind of keep thinking about something.I know Bruce does love all his kids but a lot of the reason why he even got a new robin was due to Dick.So in a way does he have a favoritism over Dick?

----------


## dietrich

> I kind of keep thinking about something.I know Bruce does love all his kids but a lot of the reason why he even got a new robin was due to Dick.So in a way does he have a favoritism over Dick?


Doubt any parent admits to having favourite but the bond between Dick and Bruce is far stronger than the rest.

Understandable when you consider what they've been through and how long they've been in each other's lives.

----------


## AmiMizuno

> Doubt any parent admits to having favourite but the bond between Dick and Bruce is far stronger than the rest.
> 
> Understandable when you consider what they've been through and how long they've been in each other's lives.


That's the hard part. How long have the others been in Bruce's life. Generally they are around the same age has Dick right?  Jason had a terrible dad and basically homeless, Tim also had a terrible dad. Damian his mom and grandpa. But overall those never got to be with how Dick was with Bruce. after Dick left I would say Bruce harden his heart so it was more difficult for each of them to deal with Bruce. Especially after Jason dead. Heck Bruce while he is willing to harm anyone who harms his kids. He was willing to harm his own kids that harmed Dick.

It really makes me wonder how much worst would Bruce get if Dick left again. He has Damian so he doesn't need another Robin. I know Dick would never cut out his own family but just cutting out Bruce. I mean Bruce kind of became a stalker to make sure Dick was okay

----------


## Claude

> Doubt any parent admits to having favourite but the bond between Dick and Bruce is far stronger than the rest.
> 
> Understandable when you consider what they've been through and how long they've been in each other's lives.


I didn't enjoy Tynion's run on Batman much, but I did like when Ghost Maker turned up and he was Bruce's Secret Rival that nobody had ever heard of and who left no trace of himself on the world etc etc.... And then Dick was just all "Oh, Ghost Maker's here? But I thought Batman and he agreed decades ago that he'd never come to Gotham".

Whether due to trust, or just that he's known him longest, I like the idea that Dick would be in on - and keep - all Bruce's secrets, even if they're ones the rest of the family aren't privy to.

----------


## dietrich

> That's the hard part. How long have the others been in Bruce's life. Generally they are around the same age has Dick right?  Jason had a terrible dad and basically homeless, Tim also had a terrible dad. Damian his mom and grandpa. But overall those never got to be with how Dick was with Bruce. after Dick left I would say Bruce harden his heart so it was more difficult for each of them to deal with Bruce. Especially after Jason dead. Heck Bruce while he is willing to harm anyone who harms his kids. He was willing to harm his own kids that harmed Dick.
> 
> It really makes me wonder how much worst would Bruce get if Dick left again. He has Damian so he doesn't need another Robin. I know Dick would never cut out his own family but just cutting out Bruce. I mean Bruce kind of became a stalker to make sure Dick was okay


Bruce never needed a Robin. He needed Dick [family] regardless of what some writers keep trying to tell [not show] us Dick is the only Robin that made a positive difference in Batman's life and approach to crime fighting.

I don't know about hardening his heart after Dick left but due to real world trends the nature of batman stories changed [which is why the Batman needs a Robin claim that was used to introduce Tim never stands up to scrutiny when held up against the actual stories]

Batman got darker and has remained dark. The only light Batman is next to Dick as robin. I don't want to say that it's due to Bruce hardening his heart. I can't say that but Bruce was def hurt when Dick left.

Dick is Batman's greatest Success and his legacy to the world [according to Morrison] 
I don't know what would happen should Dick cut bruce out of his life because the comics have warped Bruce's character so much

----------


## dietrich

> I didn't enjoy Tynion's run on Batman much, but I did like when Ghost Maker turned up and he was Bruce's Secret Rival that nobody had ever heard of and who left no trace of himself on the world etc etc.... And then Dick was just all "Oh, Ghost Maker's here? But I thought Batman and he agreed decades ago that he'd never come to Gotham".
> 
> Whether due to trust, or just that he's known him longest, I like the idea that Dick would be in on - and keep - all Bruce's secrets, even if they're ones the rest of the family aren't privy to.


I like little touches like that.

----------


## Restingvoice

Since Dick getting shot by The Joker causing Batman to relieve him of Robin was a retcon... the first of many... the first true hardening would be after Jason died. Whether it's redhead Jason or crime alley Jason. Since if it all went down without a retcon, Bruce will remain well adjusted and accepting of Dick leaving. Jason will be Robin without all the angst and awkwardness of Bruce firing Dick and then missing him.

----------


## Frontier

> Bruce never needed a Robin. He needed Dick [family] regardless of what some writers keep trying to tell [not show] us Dick is the only Robin that made a positive difference in Batman's life and approach to crime fighting.
> 
> I don't know about hardening his heart after Dick left but due to real world trends the nature of batman stories changed [which is why the Batman needs a Robin claim that was used to introduce Tim never stands up to scrutiny when held up against the actual stories]
> 
> Batman got darker and has remained dark. The only light Batman is next to Dick as robin. I don't want to say that it's due to Bruce hardening his heart. I can't say that but Bruce was def hurt when Dick left.
> 
> Dick is Batman's greatest Success and his legacy to the world [according to Morrison] 
> I don't know what would happen should Dick cut bruce out of his life because the comics have warped Bruce's character so much


I think every Robin had their own impact on Bruce, even if Dick as the original set the precedent.

----------


## Digifiend

> I have been hearing about ableism complaints since Oracle: The Cure came out which _looked_ like was going to restore Babs as Batgirl but took a U-turn and they soon relaunched the Batgirl title with Steph as Batgirl.  The gritty horror inspired Nu52 book that Gail Simone did did not appeal to the readership of the time but the lighter Burnside Batgirl did appeal to younger teen audiences. This is an entirely different demographic from the Millenials who have been reading Babs and Oracle since the 90's and much of the 00's who were left alienated during the Didio era editorial and the Nu52.  
> 
> I'm guessing that some people were hoping that Didio being fired, the changes in editorial and literally seeing Babs back in the chair would be a sign she was moving back to the Oracle persona permanently and felt DC pulled a fast one by putting her back in the cowl again.  
> 
> I agree that Tom Taylor doesn't deserve the vitriol. I follow him on FB and he's been nothing but nice and supportive of all who follow his work.  It's not his fault, he's just following what editorial dictated.  The comments I've seen from people who are mad at him have so far been very immature and childish.


I wonder if Babs was due to become Batgirl again then when that Oracle one-shot was written? An editorial page around that time mentioned that they'd considered it before making Steph the new Batgirl.



> If they had actually bothered to put out an ARGUS book that could give us a consistent chain of command maybe that would’ve stuck.


I'd have John Diggle lead that, he's ARGUS's second in command in the Arrowverse (his wife Lyla, aka Harbinger, is the leader, but she's otherwise engaged in the comics) and was introduced in the New 52 Green Arrow run.

----------


## WonderNight

> That's the hard part. How long have the others been in Bruce's life. Generally they are around the same age has Dick right?  Jason had a terrible dad and basically homeless, Tim also had a terrible dad. Damian his mom and grandpa. But overall those never got to be with how Dick was with Bruce. after Dick left I would say Bruce harden his heart so it was more difficult for each of them to deal with Bruce. Especially after Jason dead. Heck Bruce while he is willing to harm anyone who harms his kids. He was willing to harm his own kids that harmed Dick.
> 
> It really makes me wonder how much worst would Bruce get if Dick left again. He has Damian so he doesn't need another Robin. I know Dick would never cut out his own family but just cutting out Bruce. I mean Bruce kind of became a stalker to make sure Dick was okay


The other Robin's have only been in Bruce's live for a short time. Like 4 or 5 years but with dick is like 3 or 4 time's that.

----------


## Vordan

Well when Dick gets killed, Bruce tends to immediately try to murder whoever kills him (Joker in The Nail, Lex in Forever Evil, etc). Definitely think he loves Nightwing the most, in part because Dick serves as a reminder of the good he’s accomplished.

----------


## Rac7d*

> Well when Dick gets killed, Bruce tends to immediately try to murder whoever kills him (Joker in The Nail, Lex in Forever Evil, etc). Definitely think he loves Nightwing the most, in part because Dick serves as a reminder of the good he’s accomplished.


Yes dick is to Bruce what Lois is to Superman
That’s why he gets kidnapped so often

----------


## Frontier

> Well when Dick gets killed, Bruce tends to immediately try to murder whoever kills him (Joker in The Nail, Lex in Forever Evil, etc). Definitely think he loves Nightwing the most, in part because Dick serves as a reminder of the good he’s accomplished.


He was going to kill Joker after he killed Jason if Superman hadn't intervened and Joker had one of his "Joker Deaths."

He even called Superman out on it when he found out about what Superman did to the Phantom Zone prisoners. 

He was pretty savage with Heretic (before he saw what Heretic actually looked like) after Damian's death too.

Suffice it to say, Bruce doesn't take it well when any Robin dies.

----------


## Lal

> He was going to kill Joker after he killed Jason if Superman hadn't intervened and Joker had one of his "Joker Deaths."
> 
> He even called Superman out on it when he found out about what Superman did to the Phantom Zone prisoners. 
> 
> He was pretty savage with Heretic (before he saw what Heretic actually looked like) after Damian's death too.
> 
> Suffice it to say, Bruce doesn't take it well when any Robin dies.


Well, there was the entire "he's your favorite" in infinite crisis. And also Batman actually raising a gun and contemplating whether to shoot someone.
And same with forever evil when he thought Luthor killed Dick. It was pretty clear he went crazy there.

The problem with these crazy emotional responses to Dick and Damian's deaths (trying to kill their killers, him actually raising Damian), is that when Stephanie died or even when Tim was presumed dead, it didn't feel even remotely the same. 

your favorite.jpg 
batman gun.jpg

----------


## HsssH

Bruce not caring about Stephanie and Tim just reinforces my head canon that they are worthless characters.

----------


## WonderNight

> Bruce not caring about Stephanie and Tim just reinforces my head canon that they are worthless characters.


Well I do love steph but she does need a role and niche of her own.

----------


## Rac7d*

> Bruce not caring about Stephanie and Tim just reinforces my head canon that they are worthless characters.


Middle child syndrome 
Dick was his first and Damian his baby he died at 10

----------


## Restingvoice

> I wonder if Babs was due to become Batgirl again then when that Oracle one-shot was written? An editorial page around that time mentioned that they'd considered it before making Steph the new Batgirl.


Then in Batman The Return, the first official meeting with all the Bat fam members after he came back from time traveling, Batman gave Oracle his plan for Batgirl suit and motorcycle, though he didn't clarify how or why. Then turns out in Batman Incorporated, Oracle acts as an antivirus by donning a Batgirl costume and riding a cycle inside the computer world.

----------


## Godlike13

> Middle child syndrome 
> Dick was his first and Damian his baby he died at 10


Tim and Steph had parents that were very present in their life. Even if they weren't always the best. Also Bruce and Steph barely have a relationship. Her tenure as Robin was more about his relationship with Tim then it was about them. If thats all it took to put her on equal standing with Dick, that would be a problem.

----------


## Frontier

Didn't they retcon it that he knew the whole time Steph wasn't dead? Or at least heavily suspected it and that's why she didn't have a Robin memorial like Jason did? 

I think the reaction to Tim's death was choppily handled because of the circumstances but we saw him processing those emotions in 'Tec and it was part of the reason for his actions in regards to the family in the 3rd arc of King's run in the main book.

It doesn't need to be a competition of whose death hurt Bruce the most.

----------


## CPSparkles

> Didn't they retcon it that he knew the whole time Steph wasn't dead? Or at least heavily suspected it and that's why she didn't have a Robin memorial like Jason did? 
> 
> I think the reaction to Tim's death was choppily handled because of the circumstances but we saw him processing those emotions in 'Tec and it was part of the reason for his actions in regards to the family in the 3rd arc of King's run in the main book.
> 
> It doesn't need to be a competition of whose death hurt Bruce the most.


What actions? sending in them in to face a gotham full of villains and a meta with powers akin to Superman  :Stick Out Tongue: 

I do agree that Tim's supposed death was handled badly.

----------


## Frontier

> What actions? sending in them in to face a gotham full of villains and a meta with powers akin to Superman 
> 
> I do agree that Tim's supposed death was handled badly.


I was thinking more having them all in stasis at the Fortress of Solitude while he fought Bane (jeez, King's run was excessive).

----------


## signalman112

Tom Flemming original Pre-Crisis Earth-2 Robin.

Earth2RobinTomFlemming.jpg

----------


## dietrich

> Tom Flemming original Pre-Crisis Earth-2 Robin.
> 
> Earth2RobinTomFlemming.jpg


This is amazing.

----------


## Ascended

Really well done. 

Never did like that mask, but the art is damn good.

I would never want Dick to take the Robin mantle back now, it'd be too big a regression, but I sometimes wonder if it would've been better for him to have kept it.

----------


## RobinGA

Of course, Dick should have kept it!  

But it is too late now.  People are built into the Nightwing persona.  
Plus, we have what?  Five or six other Robins.  But something was 
lost when the iconic name was in a sense abandoned.

----------


## Frontier

> Tom Flemming original Pre-Crisis Earth-2 Robin.
> 
> Earth2RobinTomFlemming.jpg


Not bad  :Smile: .

----------


## AmiMizuno

You guys think the Nightwing movie or at least the animated series will happen? Because both the director of the movie and the person from the animated series said it's not dead. Someone posted a interview with the guy who wanted to do a animated series that said it's not dead.

----------


## Digifiend

> Really well done. 
> 
> Never did like that mask, but the art is damn good.
> 
> I would never want Dick to take the Robin mantle back now, it'd be too big a regression, but I sometimes wonder if it would've been better for him to have kept it.


If he kept it, then both Jason and Tim wouldn't exist, and Dick would've been de-aged. That's why he became Nightwing - the Batman writer and editors wanted Robin back, but Marv Wolfman didn't want to lose Dick from Titans, or have the continuity breaking de-aging. So he turned Dick into Nightwing and told the bat office to create a new Robin, hence we got Jason.

----------


## Ascended

Oh I know. At best we would've gotten Jason under a different moniker while Dick took Robin with him into adulthood, and removing Robin from "Batman &..." may have ended up hurting the brand. I'm quite happy with how things went so I'm not complaining. But "Robin" is certainly more marketable than "Nightwing" and maybe that would've been enough to tip the scales and protect the character from DC's negligence. 

Or maybe adult Robin would've backfired completely and ruined both Dick and Bruce. Who knows? I'm glad Dick moved beyond Robin either way; Nightwing > adult Boy Wonder.

----------


## Rac7d*



----------


## Frontier

> 


Are they making a figure or something?

----------


## Claude

_Nightwing_ in the top 40 for September, it seems.

https://icv2.com/articles/markets/vi...september-2021

I make that #11 for DC, under a crapton of Batman.

1. Batman #112 (Fear State),
2. Batman Fear State Alpha #1 (One Shot)
3. Batman #113 (Fear State)
4. Batman Catwoman #7 (Of 12) (Mature)
5. Nice House On The Lake #4 (Of 12) (Mature)
6. Batman 89 #2 (Of 6)
7. Joker #7
8. I Am Batman #1
9. Harley Quinn The Animated Series The Eat Bang Kill Tour #1 (Of 6)
10. Infinite Frontier #5 (Of 6)
11. Nightwing #84 (Fear State)

----------


## HsssH

Looks like Fear State tie-in did nothing for the sales since it #83 sold around what Infinite Frontier #4 sold and I doubt that #5 got a sales increase for no reason.

----------


## Lal

> Looks like Fear State tie-in did nothing for the sales since it #83 sold around what Infinite Frontier #4 sold and I doubt that #5 got a sales increase for no reason.


A different table by Comichorn suggests that Nightwing 83 sold about 51k in August, and ranked higher than Infinite Frontier 4 in terms of sales - https://www.comichron.com/monthlycom...1/2021-08.html

But if we're comparing icv2 tables, it does look like Nightwing sales didn't really change between issues #83 and #84 (although it's hard to say for sure as they don't mention how many copies were sold).

----------


## Ascended

Haven't events and event tie-in issues been seeing a lot of diminishing returns in recent years? I'm pretty sure (could be wrong?) that this sort of thing doesn't pull extra sales like it used to; events are too common now, the readership too set in their pull lists. 

It's like killing characters; it doesn't generate buzz like it used to because we all assume the character will return within a year or two. The industry needs new gimmicks to generate their short-term sale spikes, consumers seem bored by the old ones.

Or so it seems to me and the very limited amount of information I have on it.

But it's great that Nightwing is selling like this. All the talk here about Dick's sales and sales potential over the years, and I feel like this data is validation. We know our boy's value after all.  :Big Grin:

----------


## Vordan

It depends. The Metal tie-ins did very well I understand. It’s just that IF isn’t really grabbing people’s attention, probably because it’s far too obsessed with deep continuity cuts. But the Magistrate has been dragged out as the big bad of Batman since Future State so that might be causing fatigue as well.

----------


## FFJamie94

I enjoyed Nightwing #83 for what it is, And I've not been reading any of the fear state stuff so this is just another arc for me.

I do see how it brings the overall plot to a standstill And i wish This wasn't the case. 
But there were some cool character moments that I appreciated.

----------


## Iclifton

I think the point of tie is to raise the general line. Hoping Nightwing readers jump over to Batgirls or Batman due to the crossover and vice versa. As a reader I would prefer Nightwing did not have to participate, especially for 3 issues, but I get it.

----------


## WonderNight

Its probably because Nightwing is so connected and crossover with the bat books so much already that this feels like just another Nightwing arc.

If this was a tie in to say a superman or wonder woman or DCu event, the numbers may look different.

----------


## Ascended

> I think the point of tie is to raise the general line. Hoping Nightwing readers jump over to Batgirls or Batman due to the crossover and vice versa. As a reader I would prefer Nightwing did not have to participate, especially for 3 issues, but I get it.


That's always been the conventional wisdom. And I haven't checked sales numbers in quite a while so I could be wrong here but as far as I know, this wasn't really the case anymore. Depending on the titles and event in question there's still a spike, but if I remember correctly those spikes were (on average) getting smaller and smaller and lasting for a shorter and shorter amount of time. 

But I could be wrong here, so unless somebody has data that either supports or disproves the statement, take it with a grain of salt.  :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## Rac7d*

> Its probably because Nightwing is so connected and crossover with the bat books so much already that this feels like just another Nightwing arc.
> 
> If this was a tie in to say a superman or wonder woman or DCu event, the numbers may look different.


 How much have titles like catwoman jumped with their fear state issue

----------


## WonderNight

> How much have titles like catwoman jumped with their fear state issue


The lower the sales the the bigger the jump in tie ins

----------


## Godlike13

These sales charts can’t track DC’s titles as well anymore. Especially the mid chart books. So with the more new releases and event books Nightwing’s rank dropped as these charts can’t track variations on DCs books very well anymore. What’s more according to this chart Nightwing is selling mid 30k, other charts report it’s units in the 50’s.

----------


## Rac7d*

It doesn't matter he's improved dramatically since returning to his identity and has be selling above average
Their nothing to be concerned with as far as that

With news of Daredevil returning and to Disney + I think its time for Nightwing of Titans to separate. He's the only part of titans that has any consistency and its the show seems to want to bend for him but can't because of the rest of the team.  When daredevil had been canceled I had hoped that nightwing would be able to take that place in the eyes of the audience, but its the show really dragged their feet just to get him the identity.

----------


## Iclifton

> That's always been the conventional wisdom. And I haven't checked sales numbers in quite a while so I could be wrong here but as far as I know, this wasn't really the case anymore. Depending on the titles and event in question there's still a spike, but if I remember correctly those spikes were (on average) getting smaller and smaller and lasting for a shorter and shorter amount of time. 
> 
> But I could be wrong here, so unless somebody has data that either supports or disproves the statement, take it with a grain of salt.


Yeah and that could be the case. I think its just the thought process behind it. Especially since DC is trying to get people to pick up Batgirls. Honestly Id much prefer a Nightwing that didnt tie in. I just think because its selling well they are going to make every attempt to get its readers to look at other books as well. Hence why this time the tie in features so many other characters in Nightwings book and why its so long. 

Silver lining, just pumped to see a Dick Grayson book sell this well consistently

----------


## Konja7

> It doesn't matter he's improved dramatically since returning to his identity and has be selling above average
> Their nothing to be concerned with as far as that
> 
> With news of Daredevil returning and to Disney + I think its time for Nightwing of Titans to separate. He's the only part of titans that has any consistency and its the show seems to want to bend for him but can't because of the rest of the team.  When daredevil had been canceled I had hoped that nightwing would be able to take that place in the eyes of the audience, but its the show really dragged their feet just to get him the identity.


I don't know how Nightwing could fill Daredevil place. They are pretty different.

I think Nightwing would have problems to "free" himself from Titans, since this is one of the main aspects he is associated between general audience. 

The other big characteristic about Nightwing is that he was the first Robin. If he works solo, the story will likely lean a lot on it.

----------


## Konja7

> Yeah and that could be the case. I think it’s just the thought process behind it. Especially since DC is trying to get people to pick up Batgirls. Honestly I’d much prefer a Nightwing that didn’t tie in. I just think because it’s selling well they are going to make every attempt to get its readers to look at other books as well. Hence why this time the tie in features so many other characters in Nightwings book and why it’s so long. 
> 
> Silver lining, just pumped to see a Dick Grayson book sell this well consistently


It could also be because Tynion doesn't want to use the characters in his story (he wanted to use his own new characters). Batman would still be the better option to promote a new book like Batgirls, since the sales are still bigger. 

That said, the backups in Batman comics will have a Batgirls story. So, the promotion is still there.


Now, Tom King has mentioned he wanted to be part of the crossover. And it wouldn't be so weird he really wants to show so many characters.

----------


## Digifiend

Taylor, not King.

The Webtoon Batman Family Adventures comic is getting a live action adaptation. Dick is played by former Power Ranger Yoshi Sudarso. Tim is his also ex-Ranger brother, Peter.

----------


## Drako

From the DC Fandome trailer.

----------


## Frontier

> From the DC Fandome trailer.


Dick game butt  :Cool: .

----------


## Vordan

Two live action Nightwings? Boy is getting a push finally.

----------


## Rac7d*

I've gone to bat for titans as much as I possibly can
geez

----------


## Drako

First art of the new season!



https://twitter.com/BrandonVietti/st...28494830116865

----------


## Ascended

And that's legit?

If this is the roster the season will focus on, I am all for that; I missed the originals having the majority of screen time in seasons 2 and 3, more Zee is always welcome and we never got to see Rocket work with the team. I like a lot of the newer additions but I hope the show gets back to the OG's.

But I'm not really feeling the costumes. Kaldur especially looks like Aqualad and not Aquaman now and other than a few minor adjustments to Dick's suit (those belt pouches seem huge?) everyone seems to be wearing the same things they wore the last time we saw them. Not a real problem or anything but I was hoping the visuals and costumes would continue to change and evolve.

Still, I am hyped for this season. I've never subbed to HBOMax but I totally will for this. Watching YJ with my son has been a tradition since season 1.

----------


## Drako

It's legit.

https://collider.com/young-justice-s...rview-hbo-max/

----------


## Rac7d*

> First art of the new season!
> 
> 
> 
> https://twitter.com/BrandonVietti/st...28494830116865



Hellooooooo Megan

For real tho wow and it’s good to have it confirmed Nightwing will have a meaty role this season

----------


## Frontier

The show is at its best when it's focused on a core cast, so focusing on the OG!'s is probably a smart move.

I'm glad M'Gann has her hair back in martian form.

----------


## Vordan

Dick has a hilarious anime transformation in Injustice but otherwise its as dumb as the comic in terms of how he dies.

----------


## Frontier

> *Dick has a hilarious anime transformation in Injustice* but otherwise its as dumb as the comic in terms of how he dies.


That reminds me of _Justice League vs. Teen Titans_ where everyone randomly gets a transformation sequence out of nowhere  :Stick Out Tongue: .

----------


## Ascended

> Dick has a hilarious anime transformation in Injustice but otherwise its as dumb as the comic in terms of how he dies.


That's out already? How was it? The first game at least has the "good" version of the League to balance out the idiocy, but the trailer did nothing to make me want to watch it.

I'm not surprised they didn't change Dick's death. And I'm not bothered by it. It was a dumb death to serve a dumb video game story, and ultimately was of such little importance the game didn't actually explain what happened, only that Damian had killed him. Nightwing is nothing more than a footnote in Injustice and anyone who wants him to be more should probably think really hard about what they're asking for.  :Big Grin:

----------


## Vordan

> That's out already? How was it? The first game at least has the "good" version of the League to balance out the idiocy, but the trailer did nothing to make me want to watch it.
> 
> I'm not surprised they didn't change Dick's death. And I'm not bothered by it. It was a dumb death to serve a dumb video game story, and ultimately was of such little importance the game didn't actually explain what happened, only that Damian had killed him. Nightwing is nothing more than a footnote in Injustice and anyone who wants him to be more should probably think really hard about what they're asking for.


It’s me so you’re not getting an unbiased opinion here but I spilled some details over on the Superman forum. It’s out on pirate sites which means it’s on YT which is how I saw it. Short version is that Injustice fanboys are mad because it’s not very good, the writer of it is the same guy who did Hush  :Wink:  

It’s a very condensed version of the I1 and I2 comics and the I1 game. Only relevant part to this thread is
*spoilers:*
 Dick becomes Deadman and helps Damian beat Ra’s. He tells Damian to stop killing and Damian obliges. 
*end of spoilers*

----------


## Frontier

I don't know if it was mentioned, but Dick shows up in the latest issue of the Harley Quinn cartoon tie-in comic. 

They make a lot of butt jokes but he isn't really portrayed that badly.

----------


## Rac7d*

> I don't know if it was mentioned, but Dick shows up in the latest issue of the Harley Quinn cartoon tie-in comic. 
> 
> They make a lot of butt jokes but he isn't really portrayed that badly.


I expect to be seeing him next season

----------


## Rac7d*

> I don't know if it was mentioned, but Dick shows up in the latest issue of the Harley Quinn cartoon tie-in comic. 
> 
> They make a lot of butt jokes but he isn't really portrayed that badly.


I expect to be seeing him next season

----------


## Ascended

> It’s a very condensed version of the I1 and I2 comics and the I1 game.


Really? That is a *lot* of story to squeeze into a single animated thing.

Yup, glad I decided to pass on it. 




> I don't know if it was mentioned, but Dick shows up in the latest issue of the Harley Quinn cartoon tie-in comic. 
> 
> They make a lot of butt jokes but he isn't really portrayed that badly.


That's great. Exactly what I expected from them.

Gods I love that show. Outside of Young Justice it might be the best DC-related show/film/game around right now.

----------


## Frontier

> That's great. Exactly what I expected from them.
> 
> Gods I love that show. Outside of Young Justice it might be the best DC-related show/film/game around right now.


That's _Stargirl._ Or _Doom Patrol_  :Wink: .

Although in all seriousness I enjoy the show even if I think it builds on how overhyped Harley and stuff related to her is.

----------


## Restingvoice

I don't know about the beak and the tail but I like it when Dick's chest logo is thick


Titans United #2

----------


## Frontier

> I don't know about the beak and the tail but I like it when Dick's chest logo is thick
> 
> 
> Titans United #2


Leader Dick  :Smile: .

----------


## vitaminbee

> I don't know if it was mentioned, but Dick shows up in the latest issue of the Harley Quinn cartoon tie-in comic. 
> 
> They make a lot of butt jokes but he isn't really portrayed that badly.


It's great! Nightwing is known for being the greatest butt in Batman comics, isn't he? 
Nightwing.jpg

----------


## Frontier

> It's great! Nightwing is known for being the greatest butt in Batman comics, isn't he? 
> Nightwing.jpg


It's kind of a meme, I think  :Stick Out Tongue: .

----------


## Restingvoice

Nightbutt... Glorious Glutes... Tushwing... down, Harley. It's Tim that needs a new hero name.

----------


## vitaminbee

> It's kind of a meme, I think .


We love the king of cake.

----------


## Drako

Nightwing died twice this week, must be Didio's best week of the year.

----------


## HsssH

> Nightwing died twice this week, must be Didio's best week of the year.


Injustice movie and?

----------


## Frontier

> Injustice movie and?


I assume Titans?

----------


## Drako

> I assume Titans?


Yes. He was shot in Titans.

----------


## Vordan

Yeah I was going to make a remark that Didio must be laughing somewhere. Dick dies like a moron in *two* media projects. Let’s hope Gotham Knights doesn’t make it three.

----------


## Frontier

> Yeah I was going to make a remark that Didio must be laughing somewhere. Dick dies like a moron in *two* media projects. Let’s hope Gotham Knights doesn’t make it three.


I doubt it, if only because he's one of the playable characters :Stick Out Tongue: .

----------


## HsssH

> I doubt it, if only because he's one of the playable characters.


He can always die when you finish the game  :Big Grin:

----------


## Blue22

> I doubt it, if only because he's one of the playable characters.


And he's the main character of Titans but that didn't stop the absolute fuckery that was the newest episode lol 

(though, I guess they practically telegraphed that he'd be back when Rachel found the Lazarus Pit)




> Yeah I was going to make a remark that Didio must be laughing somewhere. Dick dies like a moron in *two* media projects. Let’s hope Gotham Knights doesn’t make it three.


I just...I can't with Titans. This season's already been REALLY bad (at least whenever it focuses on the bat stuff) but this latest episode might be the worst of the entire series. And that's saying something when you take into account the season 2 finale. One of my biggest pet peeves in fiction is when the plot is 100% dependent on the characters suddenly becoming as dumb as humanly possible and making literally ALL the wrong choices. (It's one of the reasons I hate Civil War II so much)

And MAN they have been going out of their way to make Dick the biggest moron on the planet for the past two episodes. To the point where I'm not even surprised that he ended up turning his back on a drugged out Red Hood fanatic with a gun. Boy points a gun at you and says to leave Jason alone, so your response is to turn around and keep doing what you're doing?! Fuck out of here with this writing. 

What the hell happened to this show? Season 2 was so damn good until the end!

(Also why the hell is Dick's costume more bulletproof than the Tamaranean battle armor?)

----------


## Frontier

> And he's the main character of Titans but that didn't stop the absolute fuckery that was the newest episode lol 
> 
> (though, I guess they practically telegraphed that he'd be back when Rachel found the Lazarus Pit)
> 
> 
> 
> I just...I can't with Titans. This season's already been REALLY bad (at least whenever it focuses on the bat stuff) but this latest episode might be the worst of the entire season. And that's saying something when you take into account the season 2 finale. One of my biggest pet peeves in fiction is when the plot is 100% dependent on the characters suddenly becoming as dumb as humanly possible and making literally ALL the wrong choices. (It's one of the reasons I hate Civil War II so much)
> 
> And MAN they have been going out of their way to make Dick the biggest moron on the planet for the past two episodes. To the point where I'm not even surprised that he ended up turning his back on a drugged out Red Hood fanatic with a gun. Boy points a gun at you and says to leave Jason alone, so your response is to turn around and keep doing what you're doing?! Fuck out of here with this writing. 
> ...


Civil War II was a travesty of a comic with amazing art.

----------


## Blue22

> Civil War II was a travesty of a comic with amazing art.


Yeah. There are a lot of books whose only saving grace is the art

[Stares judgingly at the Ric Saga and Bendis' Legion]

----------


## Drako

In Gotham Knights, Dick is the only adopted son of Bruce Wayne (Jason might be still considered dead) and he is seen patrolling Gotham as is stated in this Newspaper that a Black and Blue Vigilante is stopping some crimes in the city now.

https://www.reddit.com/r/GothamKnigh...the_newspaper/

----------


## Frontier

> In Gotham Knights, Dick is the only adopted son of Bruce Wayne (Jason might be still considered dead) and he is seen patrolling Gotham as is stated in this Newspaper that a Black and Blue Vigilante is stopping some crimes in the city now.
> 
> https://www.reddit.com/r/GothamKnigh...the_newspaper/


This makes me wonder if Tim is just a ward or if his parents are still alive.

They also mention Jacob Kane, and it sounds like they've merged him and Philip, so...Batwoman?

----------


## Blue22

I'm hoping at least his dad is still alive. Killing Jack off will never not be one of the biggest mistakes that DC has made. Let heroes have parents who are just normal people, damn it. 

It feels like the only surefire way to avoid being an orphan in these books is to have parents who are also superheroes/villains.

----------


## Frontier

> I'm hoping at least his dad is still alive. Killing Jack off will never not be one of the biggest mistakes that DC has made. Let heroes have parents who are just normal people, damn it. 
> 
> It feels like the only surefire way to avoid being an orphan in these books is to have parents who are also superheroes/villains.


I like the Bruce and Tim stuff we got out of it, but it was just one long trauma conga line for Tim back then.

----------


## Rac7d*

what are we two weeks away from February solicits?

----------


## Vordan

> what are we two weeks away from February solicits?


I think January’s are this week?

----------


## Rac7d*

> I think January’s are this week?


dont we have most of january?

----------


## Grayson - The Dark Heir

At this point I don't think it's much of a spoiler, but at least the Injustice movie adapted the Deadman thing. A small victory in what's overall a big L, lol.




> dont we have most of january?


Only because of the Holidays, this month will still be for January.

----------


## Drako

The New Nightwing suit for the comics will be revealed today.

https://twitter.com/Bruno_Redondo_F/...06201924014082



https://twitter.com/TomTaylorMade/st...14860095684609

----------


## Drako

More soon.

----------


## Badou

Never cared for the finger stripes, but this fits right in line with the Dixon era nostalgia the run is going for. It is copying so much from that run. I would have preferred something more unique and change up the entire look over just reverting to something that feels dated and translates really poorly to live action. Feels like a wasted opportunity to me not to try something new. I still think that one suit they had him in for the dumb Titans future state thing with the gold was better. Seeing some other colors added felt fresh to me. It also got rid of the bird head on the front too which I don't care for, lol.

----------


## Arsenal

I'll be honest... I didn't even notice the finger stripes until I read the tweet.

----------


## Frontier

I wasn't expecting anything that dramatic but I also noticed Dick's butt over the finger stripes  :Stick Out Tongue: .

----------


## Drako

> Full suit design (saving some detail). Yes, it might be the less brave Re-design I ever did, but don’t believe in fix something that’s not broken… but  mixing different stages details with some self adjustments here and there? Dick’s way @TomTaylorMade @DCComics #Nightwing




DETECTIVE COMICS #1050

On sale January 25th is the landmark, oversize Detective Comics Issue #1050, part four of the twelve part weekly SHADOWS OF THE BAT EVENT, featuring some of the biggest names in comics, like Mark Waid (THE FLASH), Dan Mora (DETECTIVE COMICS), Mariko Tamaki (DETECTIVE COMICS), Matthew Rosenberg (TASK FORCE Z), and Fernando Blanco (CATWOMAN). 

First up is “The Tower” part four, the dramatic conclusion to Mariko Tamaki’s Arkham Tower epic, with art by Ivan Reis. The villainous force keeping Arkham Tower’s patients sedated is at last revealed—and this villain’s return is guaranteed to catch you by surprise. The issue also includes part four of “House of Gotham” by Matthew Rosenberg and Fernando Blanco, taking fans into the seedy underbelly of Gotham’s criminal elite through the lens of the Dick Grayson, and reveal what it takes for a young man to survive amongst the deadliest killers in the DC Universe. It’s a tour de force of Gotham’s vilest villains!

----------


## Godlike13

Not sure I’d call that a redesign, but hey every new costume has been so minuscule in difference to the finger stripe suit I never really saw the point of them. Never understood sticking with the same general look but just cutting out more and more of the signature bits. If they aren’t really going to do a new look, then just stick with the popular look proper.

----------


## Badou

Yeah, he moved the blue lines from his legs to his arms to just reuse the Dixon era costume again, lol. 

The finger stripes are one thing, but there is so much solid black from the mid chest down all the way to the feet. It just looks so top heavy to me with all the color being from the mid chest up and in the arms with him looking so naked below that. I dunno. We've talked about this for years now but I'd love for them to really experiment with something fresh for his costume. I don't get why they don't. They do it with so many other Batman family characters and if the new costume sucks they can just go back to the other one. Not like they are married to one design. Tim got that awful new costume in Young Justice when he was going by Drake and they scrapped it in just a handful of issues.

----------


## Rac7d*

> The New Nightwing suit for the comics will be revealed today.
> 
> https://twitter.com/Bruno_Redondo_F/...06201924014082
> 
> 
> 
> https://twitter.com/TomTaylorMade/st...14860095684609


Lol they are having too much fun

----------


## Restingvoice

> DETECTIVE COMICS #1050
> 
> On sale January 25th is the landmark, oversize Detective Comics Issue #1050, part four of the twelve part weekly SHADOWS OF THE BAT EVENT, featuring some of the biggest names in comics, like Mark Waid (THE FLASH), Dan Mora (DETECTIVE COMICS), Mariko Tamaki (DETECTIVE COMICS), Matthew Rosenberg (TASK FORCE Z), and Fernando Blanco (CATWOMAN). 
> 
> First up is “The Tower” part four, the dramatic conclusion to Mariko Tamaki’s Arkham Tower epic, with art by Ivan Reis. The villainous force keeping Arkham Tower’s patients sedated is at last revealed—and this villain’s return is guaranteed to catch you by surprise. The issue also includes part four of “House of Gotham” by Matthew Rosenberg and Fernando Blanco, taking fans into the seedy underbelly of Gotham’s criminal elite through the lens of the Dick Grayson, and reveal what it takes for a young man to survive amongst the deadliest killers in the DC Universe. It’s a tour de force of Gotham’s vilest villains!


Okay look

I always like the sleekness and simplicity of Nightwing costume... but this one has such symmetry that the bird beak immediately stands out. 

It shouldn't have the bird beak as the sole exception of the symmetry. This is gonna bug me.

----------


## Drako

88 Variant

----------


## Rac7d*

> 88 Variant


Wooo Valentine’s Day is gonna be fun

----------


## Frontier

> 88 Variant


Cute cover  :Embarrassment: .

(Also...butts  :Wink: ).

----------


## Restingvoice

I wanted to say Dick should really get going on fixing his apartment, but then I remember, it will get a shoot out with the mafia in #87 so might as well leave it that way

----------


## Ascended

Love the "new" suit. Been waiting for the return of the finger stripes and the removal of the calf stripes for a long time. 

I even like the eagle head throwing off the symmetry. It's intentionally asymmetrical, made to draw the eye to the emblem. Works for me; that's the kind of design sensibility that gets your logo on lunch boxes.  :Stick Out Tongue: 

Not as big on the variant cover. It's beautiful and perfectly rendered by Campbell, who remains one of the industry's best talents, but I hate Dick and Babs being together so much. Like, I hate them as a couple as much as Dean Cain hates Jon Kent being bisexual.  :Stick Out Tongue: 

Still, I have no real complaints here. Taylor and the art team continue to churn out a wonderful Dixon redux, and while it's not the Nightwing story I would write, and it's not a status quo I want, it's still the best this book has been in many years and I'm still (mostly) satisfied. More now with the "new" costume.

----------


## Drako

Best part about the new costume is that he took this shit off. I absolutely hate this belt thingy.

----------


## Iclifton

> Love the "new" suit. Been waiting for the return of the finger stripes and the removal of the calf stripes for a long time. 
> 
> I even like the eagle head throwing off the symmetry. It's intentionally asymmetrical, made to draw the eye to the emblem. Works for me; that's the kind of design sensibility that gets your logo on lunch boxes. 
> 
> Not as big on the variant cover. It's beautiful and perfectly rendered by Campbell, who remains one of the industry's best talents, but I hate Dick and Babs being together so much. Like, I hate them as a couple as much as Dean Cain hates Jon Kent being bisexual. 
> 
> Still, I have no real complaints here. Taylor and the art team continue to churn out a wonderful Dixon redux, and while it's not the Nightwing story I would write, and it's not a status quo I want, it's still the best this book has been in many years and I'm still (mostly) satisfied. More now with the "new" costume.


Agreed, I like that they kept the bird head and I really missed the finger stripes. Less like a re-design and more a "lets combine all the best elements of Nightwing costumes. No more arm belts and leg stripes is a big plus for me. I am also a big fan of the blue on the soles of his shoes, palms and of course Dominoes mask (I believe this was added during rebirth).

Happy to know we may actually see Babs and Dick in a relationship instead of beating around the bush. I feel like a lot of what people found boring about the relationship is the constant will they/won`t they. We have never actually seen them together so it feel new to me.

----------


## Pohzee

Love the new suit. The best costumes are simple. This keeps the iconic elements and brings back in new ones. I don't want trash costumes that are different to generate buzz like the Murphy Batgirl suit and the Woods Red Hood suit.

Small incremental changes that bring a suit closer to a signature look are even better. I wish more creative teams would be willing to eschew buzz to just make good suits as opposed to radical (and obviously non-permanent) changes.

Getting rid of the weird buckles and random boot swishes make the whole thing sleeker.

----------


## Rakiduam

So, still completely stuck in the past.

----------


## WonderNight

> So, still completely stuck in the past.


And dick/babs! The most generic and boring pairing Dick could have.

----------


## Vordan

> Yeah, he moved the blue lines from his legs to his arms to just reuse the Dixon era costume again, lol. 
> 
> The finger stripes are one thing, but there is so much solid black from the mid chest down all the way to the feet. It just looks so top heavy to me with all the color being from the mid chest up and in the arms with him looking so naked below that. I dunno. We've talked about this for years now but I'd love for them to really experiment with something fresh for his costume. I don't get why they don't. They do it with so many other Batman family characters and if the new costume sucks they can just go back to the other one. Not like they are married to one design. Tim got that awful new costume in Young Justice when he was going by Drake and they scrapped it in just a handful of issues.


Glad to see Im not alone. I wish they would add more blue to the bottom half of his suit.

----------


## AmiMizuno

> And dick/babs! The most generic and boring pairing Dick could have.


I mean most fans seem to want them but the issue is we know they will just break them up despite pushing for them too. I really liked Shawn. I think most of the reason why they even push DickBabs to keep him locked in. I like DickBabs but I like DickShawn more. The idea of a reverse Catwoman has a like of new storylines.

----------


## Rac7d*

> Agreed, I like that they kept the bird head and I really missed the finger stripes. Less like a re-design and more a "lets combine all the best elements of Nightwing costumes. No more arm belts and leg stripes is a big plus for me. I am also a big fan of the blue on the soles of his shoes, palms and of course Dominoes mask (I believe this was added during rebirth).
> 
> Happy to know we may actually see Babs and Dick in a relationship instead of beating around the bush. I feel like a lot of what people found boring about the relationship is the constant will they/won`t they. We have never actually seen them together so it feel new to me.


Yes I’m glad they do shave a chance to BE TOGETHER 
Taylor has given me a lot of hope, we just need no bat event for 9 months to get a good story out of him.

----------


## AmiMizuno

> Yes I’m glad they do shave a chance to BE TOGETHER 
> Taylor has given me a lot of hope, we just need no bat event for 9 months to get a good story out of him.


This is why I kind of wish that Nightwing could just have two separate titles. One Nightwing for the regular and the Fear State. I just wish that Nightwing and the Titans can get their own big events or just that his storyline doesn't need to be stopped. 

Since Tom said he will be on there for a while this means they won't be broke up anything soon

----------


## Ascended

> Agreed, I like that they kept the bird head and I really missed the finger stripes. Less like a re-design and more a "lets combine all the best elements of Nightwing costumes. No more arm belts and leg stripes is a big plus for me. I am also a big fan of the blue on the soles of his shoes, palms and of course Dominoes mask (I believe this was added during rebirth).
> 
> Happy to know we may actually see Babs and Dick in a relationship instead of beating around the bush. I feel like a lot of what people found boring about the relationship is the constant will they/won`t they. We have never actually seen them together so it feel new to me.


I will definitely take a cemented relationship over more of the failed triangle. But my problem with DickBabs isn't the will they/won't they thing, I genuinely do not like them together. I think they bring out the worst in each other.

I'm digging on the blue palms and soles too. Nice detail and I like the texture it implies. Still prefer the black mask, but not bothered by the blue.

----------


## AmiMizuno

> I will definitely take a cemented relationship over more of the failed triangle. But my problem with DickBabs isn't the will they/won't they thing, I genuinely do not like them together. I think they bring out the worst in each other.
> 
> I'm digging on the blue palms and soles too. Nice detail and I like the texture it implies. Still prefer the black mask, but not bothered by the blue.


Kind of agreed because Babs keeps thinking he will cheat and is fickle of what she wants from him. Becomes jealous and at times when she has broke up with him  is angry when he moves on. I mean DickKori's relationship has it's own issues but nothing toxics just writers putting Kori down to make Babs look better. Dc wants to put them together but also breaks them up. In many ways if Dc wanted them to end up together they can easily stop the writers from breaking them up. I hate how Babs has been consistent when they go bad. She is not confident in her relationship and then get very jealous. Now Babs can be hesitating and is judgemental but there becomes a time when it doesn't add up. She knows Dick or can find out. So she doesn't need to be judging him or fickle with hi. But with Tom, I doubt it will happen anything soon


On other note. I hope Haley stays. I want them to keep Haley and not kill her

----------


## Rac7d*

> This is why I kind of wish that Nightwing could just have two separate titles. One Nightwing for the regular and the Fear State. I just wish that Nightwing and the Titans can get their own big events or just that his storyline doesn't need to be stopped. 
> 
> Since Tom said he will be on there for a while this means they won't be broke up anything soon


I just wish he was bi weekly again, the titans are never alllowed to deal with big threat anyway, you have to be in the JL or JL adjacent…..

----------


## AmiMizuno

> I just wish he was bi weekly again, the titans are never alllowed to deal with big threat anyway, you have to be in the JL or JL adjacent…..


That sucks. I wish they could. Yea right now he would have to get outside of the Titans. Another Comic Title. Unlikely.At least we have elsewhere books to look forwarded to. Gabriel Picolo has shared some artwork not sure if it's from the next Graphic but we have Babs calling him. And this is interesting has Starfire and Babs aren't generally in the same place if they are doing a TT graphic novel 

*spoilers:*
ai106lnd6ct71.jpg
*end of spoilers*

----------


## Grayson - The Dark Heir

> Glad to see Im not alone. I wish they would add more blue to the bottom half of his suit.





> Yeah, he moved the blue lines from his legs to his arms to just reuse the Dixon era costume again, lol. 
> 
> The finger stripes are one thing, but there is so much solid black from the mid chest down all the way to the feet. It just looks so top heavy to me with all the color being from the mid chest up and in the arms with him looking so naked below that. I dunno. We've talked about this for years now but I'd love for them to really experiment with something fresh for his costume. I don't get why they don't. They do it with so many other Batman family characters and if the new costume sucks they can just go back to the other one. Not like they are married to one design. Tim got that awful new costume in Young Justice when he was going by Drake and they scrapped it in just a handful of issues.


Thought it was just me lol, it's going to look like the artists just gave up halfway through drawing him on every page now. That, or he'll just look like he's nude and being censored by shadows. 

All I want is some gold on the suit again, but oh well. It's the safest possible design and capturing some really important iconography so it's fine for what it is. It's not bad, if anything it's pretty decent, but just also pretty boring. 

I think the suit really could've used a sleek belt, like the kind Dick wore as Batman, but we're not allowed to reference that in anyway that isn't short-term pandering so I'm expecting too much there too.

----------


## scary harpy

> Never cared for the finger stripes, but this fits right in line with the Dixon era nostalgia the run is going for. It is copying so much from that run. I would have preferred something more unique and change up the entire look over just reverting to something that feels dated and translates really poorly to live action. Feels like a wasted opportunity to me not to try something new. I still think that one suit they had him in for the dumb Titans future state thing with the gold was better. Seeing some other colors added felt fresh to me. It also got rid of the bird head on the front too which I don't care for, lol.





> Not sure Id call that a redesign, but hey every new costume has been so minuscule in difference to the finger stripe suit I never really saw the point of them. Never understood sticking with the same general look but just cutting out more and more of the signature bits. If they arent really going to do a new look, then just stick with the popular look proper.





> Yeah, he moved the blue lines from his legs to his arms to just reuse the Dixon era costume again, lol. 
> 
> The finger stripes are one thing, but there is so much solid black from the mid chest down all the way to the feet. It just looks so top heavy to me with all the color being from the mid chest up and in the arms with him looking so naked below that. I dunno. We've talked about this for years now but I'd love for them to really experiment with something fresh for his costume. I don't get why they don't. They do it with so many other Batman family characters and if the new costume sucks they can just go back to the other one. Not like they are married to one design. Tim got that awful new costume in Young Justice when he was going by Drake and they scrapped it in just a handful of issues.





> Okay look
> 
> I always like the sleekness and simplicity of Nightwing costume... but this one has such symmetry that the bird beak immediately stands out. 
> 
> It shouldn't have the bird beak as the sole exception of the symmetry. This is gonna bug me.





> So, still completely stuck in the past.





> Glad to see Im not alone. I wish they would add more blue to the bottom half of his suit.





> Thought it was just me lol, it's going to look like the artists just gave up halfway through drawing him on every page now. That, or he'll just look like he's nude and being censored by shadows. 
> 
> All I want is some gold on the suit again, but oh well. It's the safest possible design and capturing some really important iconography so it's fine for what it is. It's not bad, if anything it's pretty decent, but just also pretty boring. 
> 
> I think the suit really could've used a sleek belt, like the kind Dick wore as Batman, but we're not allowed to reference that in anyway that isn't short-term pandering so I'm expecting too much there too.


I am glad to see I am not alone in my unimpressed opinion of Nightwing's 'new' look.

I thought the calf stripes were an improvement...added a splash of color down there.

I do like the blue palms & soles.

----------


## phonogram12

As long as the Bat offices remain in control of Nightwing - whether they're written well together or not - Dick and Babs will always be a thing. Previous to the current run I always considered that a detriment. Taylor somehow managed the impossible and convinced me that they are somehow a compelling couple. Babs seems to be over her past issues same as Dick. They're actually supportive of one another, patient, and *gasp!* even fun.

----------


## AmiMizuno

But for how long? That's the thing I love them right now but generally after the writers leave is the moment things go down. I think he said he will be on for a while. But I do wish Nightwing did have his own editor


And has long has Titans are a thing DickKori will also be a thing. Even if they don't offical thing Titans will still have them interact in Flirty way. And Titans show is pushing them too. So it seems there will also be a three way.

----------


## phonogram12

For the past 25 years or so, Nightwing has been considered a Bat character. I really don't see any of that changing any time soon. Bat characters are how DC make their $$$. So while Dick and Kori can be flirty, they will never be official so long as this is the case.

Like I said, for the most part, I enjoy their dynamic now. The minute it resembles anything close to post-Crisis, though, I'm out. It was hard to tell if they even liked each other during most of this time, quite frankly.

----------


## AmiMizuno

I been wondering this for a bit but I wonder wiht Fear state and others are they trying to be like other major Dc events like crisis  if so having so many events takes a way from what made those special not only that but so many events don't have the same impact. It feels like they only after the money. And not after the story telling. If that's the care they shouldn't do events because they don't have the same impact.

. Am I the only one who would like Shawn to be a supporting cast member?


Overall I feel like with how Dc is they will return how Babs and Dick's relationship originally is seen. Because the few times we have the good moments it then just stops and returns. With Tom on it's not going to happen anytimes soon but Dc sadly does follow patterns when it comes
to relationships with the Batfam or main hero relationships.

----------


## Restingvoice

I want Shawn and every other Bludhaven cast who's ever been a supporting cast to remain a supporting cast, one reason is to keep building that city since they're not getting rid of it, and the other is like I mentioned in my requirement for Dick leaving for Gotham, so the city will not be completely abandoned by its protector.

Though she's traveling with King Shark right now so I'll wait.

----------


## AmiMizuno

> I want Shawn and every other Bludhaven cast who's ever been a supporting cast to remain a supporting cast, one reason is to keep building that city since they're not getting rid of it, and the other is like I mentioned in my requirement for Dick leaving for Gotham, so the city will not be completely abandoned by its protector.
> 
> Though she's traveling with King Shark right now so I'll wait.


How many supporting cast members ? I haven't been reading anything from the 90s? I do know Dick had a relationship with the commissioner in Bludhaven. But does he now ? How many supporting cast does he have ? And who are your favorite


Hey do you think Shawn should ever be a costume fight ?

----------


## Lucas 35

Robins #1 Variant by Babs Tarr

----------


## AmiMizuno

> Robins #1 Variant by Babs Tarr


This really makes me want an Artbook of just Nightwing of a Nightwing Calendar

----------


## Drako

> Robins #1 Variant by Babs Tarr

----------


## Restingvoice

> How many supporting cast members ? I haven't been reading anything from the 90s? I do know Dick had a relationship with the commissioner in Bludhaven. But does he now ? How many supporting cast does he have ? And who are your favorite
> 
> 
> Hey do you think Shawn should ever be a costume fight ?


As many as possible. Only one's back now, his superintendent. There's still the captain, the detective, the gay officer, the bartender, the run-offs, the other tenants, his gym students including the stripper, and might as well include the rest of Haly's Circus.

----------


## AmiMizuno

> As many as possible. Only one's back now, his superintendent. There's still the captain, the detective, the gay officer, the bartender, the run-offs, the other tenants, his gym students including the stripper, and might as well include the rest of Haly's Circus.




I'm curious how should Haley's circus be brought back even if they aren't a traveling Circus anymore. I keep thinking since Bludhaven does remain of Las Vegas they could open up there thanks to Dick

Question is Titans United cannon?

----------


## Frontier

Well, at least they didn't go for the obvious butt fanservice  :Stick Out Tongue: .

----------


## AmiMizuno

> Well, at least they didn't go for the obvious butt fanservice .


True but when they don't sure the butt. They should he is packing.

----------


## WonderNight

> True but when they don't sure the butt. They should he is packing.


There's a reason why all the lady's love him! :Wink:

----------


## AmiMizuno

> There's a reason why all the lady's love him!


I imagine that his flexibility helps makes things even better

----------


## WonderNight

> I imagine that his flexibility helps makes things even better


Yeap! That's why dick needs a superpower girlfriend because we all know how babs really ended up in a wheelchair  :Cool:

----------


## AmiMizuno

> Yeap! That's why dick needs a superpower girlfriend because we all know how babs really ended up in a wheelchair


Lol. Sadly Dc doesn't think she fits with Bludhaven crowd. She just too much for them it seems. How can we change that? Because he clearly looks like he needs a challenge

----------


## WonderNight

> Lol. Sadly Dc doesn't think she fits with Bludhaven crowd. She just too much for them it seems. How can we change that? Because he clearly looks like he needs a challenge


hmm make bludhaven a hub for meta's? Low to mid tier? Or keep the vegas entertainment side of the city so supers visit regularly? Have dick live in and work to fix the city but fight crime global? All I know is these non super women need to be careful with the Grayson or we'll need alot more wheelchairs! :Cool:

----------


## Rac7d*

Those covers

----------


## AmiMizuno

> hmm make bludhaven a hub for meta's? Low to mid tier? Or keep the vegas entertainment side of the city so supers visit regularly? Have dick live in and work to fix the city but fight crime global? All I know is these non super women need to be careful with the Grayson or we'll need alot more wheelchairs!


That's one thing that seems to be Dc keeps returning to. That Bludhaven is suppose to be this east coast Las Vegas. Not only that being close to New York you have the titans. You also have the fact he is not too far from Superman. What if the citadel began starting work to find Kori again. That's how does Aliens get into Bludhaven.

Also how much money you think Gotham will spend on wheelchairs?

----------


## WonderNight

> That's one thing that seems to be Dc keeps returning to. That Bludhaven is suppose to be this east coast Las Vegas. Not only that being close to New York you have the titans. You also have the fact he is not too far from Superman. What if the citadel began starting work to find Kori again. That's how does Aliens get into Bludhaven.
> 
> Also how much money you think Gotham will spend on wheelchairs?


All I know is that stock prices in wheelchairs sky rockets whenever Nightwing's back in gotham.

----------


## AmiMizuno

> All I know is that stock prices in wheelchairs sky rockets whenever Nightwing's back in gotham.


I bet a new company will have to stay in. How would you want Kori and Dick to get back together? All I'm saying it should be special. especially with the wanting to keep the number down.

----------


## WonderNight

> I bet a new company will have to stay in. How would you want Kori and Dick to get back together? All I'm saying it should be special. especially with the wanting to keep the number down.


Yeah if bruce invest in wheelchairs when dicks in gotham he'd make his billions back. While I do prefer kori over babs why does it always have to be between those two? Why not someone new and fresh! Something nightwing definitely needs right now, how many 20 something single female heroine are out here? We need to stop putting theses limits on what nightwing could and should be, especially the limits of nostalgia that holds him back!

Like now that the titans are a school for young heroes, how about nightwings future team role is as the nick fury of jon and yara's JL! Or something.

----------


## AmiMizuno

> Yeah if bruce invest in wheelchairs when dicks in gotham he'd make his billions back. While I do prefer kori over babs why does it always have to be between those two? Why not someone new and fresh! Something nightwing definitely needs right now, how many 20 something single female heroine are out here? We need to stop putting theses limits on what nightwing could and should be, especially the limits of nostalgia that holds him back!
> 
> Like now that the titans are a school for young heroes, how about nightwings future team role is as the nick fury of jon and yara's JL! Or something.


That's why i liked Shawn. Want to see her again. I don't know if we will see him in JL from Jon and Yara. Has originally the idea was to replace the old and being in the new. So sadly no Dick or Wally. I mean the Batman was someone no one in the Batfam knew. That's bad. I would have liked Dick to have been quickly making JL. I mean Dick is often on a the emergency bakc
Up take but Dc didn't think about that. Even if the JL brought up I still would have seen Dick, Wally and Donna making a new one not Yara and Jon

----------


## WonderNight

> That's why i liked Shawn. Want to see her again. I don't know if we will see him in JL from Jon and Yara. Has originally the idea was to replace the old and being in the new. So sadly no Dick or Wally. I mean the Batman was someone no one in the Batfam knew. That's bad. I would have liked Dick to have been quickly making JL. I mean Dick is often on a the emergency bakc
> Up take but Dc didn't think about that. Even if the JL brought up I still would have seen Dick, Wally and Donna making a new one not Yara and Jon


I don't even care anymore really! Ive come to accept that nightwing will always just be batman's top subordinate! Thats his role. So i don't care what they do with him anymore. Just know that the next time DC wants bruce to feel sad again dick's first on the hit list lol. Also DC ain't make ever making no dick, wally and donna JL lol! That's why they created this new generation in the first place, there the next generation that matters.

----------


## Lal

> I don't even care anymore really! Ive come to accept that nightwing will always just be batman's top subordinate! Thats his role. So i don't care what they do with him anymore. Just know that the next time DC wants bruce to feel sad again dick's first on the hit list lol. Also DC ain't make ever making no dick, wally and donna JL lol! That's why they created this new generation in the first place, there the next generation that matters.


I think it's really up to us. If enough people would read stories about Dick, Donna and Wally, we'll get more stories about them. Things already improved so much in the last year. Dick and Wally already have ongoings now, and DC course-corrected both of their stories. 
Hopefully, Dick could be some kind of mentor to Jon Superman. It would be interesting to se it.

As for the justice league... it's written so badly right now I think we're honestly lucky Dick isn't there. I hope that in adaptations like Dark knights of steel or DC vs Vampires Dick would play an interesting role and won't just die in issue 1.

----------


## WonderNight

Yeah I know dick isn't joining the current Justice league, but that I hope he can play the nick fury mentor role to the next generation Jon yara ect Justice League!

It'll help nightwing keep some in universe status by still being respected and a core player in the shaping of the Dcu.

It would look so sad and weak for a bunch of rookies to just come and surpass him.

----------


## Lal

> Yeah I know dick isn't joining the current Justice league, but that I hope he can play the nick fury mentor role to the next generation Jon yara ect Justice League!
> 
> It'll help nightwing keep some in universe status by still being respected and a core player in the shaping of the Dcu.
> 
> It would look so sad and weak for a bunch of rookies to just come and surpass him.


Right now the "big players" of the younger generation seem to be Jon, Yara and Damian. 
Dick is already very close to Damian and plays a role of a mentor/older brother. If he'll become a confident and a mentor to Jon as well (as Taylor suggested in Nightwing 83) it would be great. 
I'm not following Yara, so I have no clue what she's doing, but maybe she'll become more prominent in the next big Amazon event.

I don't know if we'll see Yara or Jace in the JL there in the near future. While Jon could maybe be there as Earth's superman, I really can't think of a reason for Jace to be there in the foreseeable future (but then again, right now Naomi is in the JL, so the roster there doesn't make much sense anyway. DC make very questionable decisions sometimes)

----------


## Restingvoice

Taylor writes both Dick and Jon and have talked with Williamson about possible meeting with Damian when the Robin series started. It's still gonna take some time since Williamson will be reuniting Damian with Bruce first and leaving Gotham, and Taylor's still establishing Jon's world but as long as those two is around the possibility is there.

Jace respects Dick in Future State to ask for his guidance, but I don't know about the present day, since as far as I know he hasn't met him and Dick will be going undercover in Arkham Tower or returning to Bludhaven. So they'll also probably not going to be hanging out for at least the next arc.

----------


## Badou

Dick and Wally haven't interacted at all since before Heroes in Crisis and the Ric story. DC doesn't care about that relationship. Dick's biggest problem as a character is how he is functionally irrelevant in the DCU's bigger ongoing stories. He's basically a nobody. The reason for that, as we've discussed before, is because he will always be redundant in them because DC has Batman they can focus on. Nightwing will never be able to compare with Batman in stories like that and DC sees no point in spending resources on him in those bigger stories and I sadly don't see that really ever changing. He is slightly more involved in the bigger ongoing Batman/Gotham stories, but only just. Even with them he serves no real story purpose other than just being one of the Batman kids. I can't remember the last big story where it actually felt like Dick was a central figure and crucial to the big story. 

But this problem is also compounded by fans and creators being obsessed with the idea of making awful settings like Bludhaven work, which isolate the character further in my opinion, and want him to have his own rogues gallery filled with new villains no one really cares about. Every Nightwing run feels like it is basically trying to solve these two things and failing over and over. I just don't see it as a way to really elevate the character where maybe he could have a bigger presence in bigger stories. What the character needs more than anything are great standalone stories with top tier villains that can be easily repackaged to a wider audience. This is something the character does not have. He has been a solo character for 25+ years now, but I don't think I can really point to any great standalone Nightwing stories. There is no great Nightwing and Deathstroke story, there is no great Nightwing and Joker story, and there is no great Nightwing and Court of Owls story. 

All the character has are these long drawn out runs by creators where the quality fluctuates wildly. He doesn't really have a Black Mirror type of story as Nightwing. That is what creators need to figure out in my opinion. Usually you could point to a character's origin story as being the breakout story, but I've said this before but Nightwing's origin is such a mess. Judas Contract is iconic, but as a Nightwing origin story it is kind of lacking. That wasn't the purpose of it and it focuses on a lot of other things where the creation of Nightwing isn't what it is centered on. Then when they have tried to tell new Nightwing origin stories, like with Bruce firing Dick and so on, they have all been kind of awful. So Nightwing is kind of stuck with no great origin story to sell to the public. Then even outside of an origin there isn't really any Nightwing story I can think of that you can really call a great standalone story with a great villain. 

Under the Red Hood for Jason is a great example of what I'm talking about. It is a standalone story that checks all those boxes. It is a standalone story that is easy to sell to the public, it involves Batman and the Joker who is the biggest villain in all of comics and clearly establishes Jason's relationship with both, and as a bonus it is an origin story. It just functions really well at introducing people to Jason as Red Hood and because of this it has elevated Jason's character really far and shows the importance of these kind of stories. Nightwing just doesn't have anything like this. If creators could solve this then I think we will see Nightwing take that next jump.

----------


## Lal

> Dick and Wally haven't interacted at all since before Heroes in Crisis and the Ric story. DC doesn't care about that relationship. Dick's biggest problem as a character is how he is functionally irrelevant in the DCU's bigger ongoing stories. He's basically a nobody. The reason for that, as we've discussed before, is because he will always be redundant in them because DC has Batman they can focus on. Nightwing will never be able to compare with Batman in stories like that and DC sees no point in spending resources on him in those bigger stories and I sadly don't see that really ever changing. He is slightly more involved in the bigger ongoing Batman/Gotham stories, but only just. Even with them he serves no real story purpose other than just being one of the Batman kids. I can't remember the last big story where it actually felt like Dick was a central figure and crucial to the big story. 
> 
> But this problem is also compounded by fans and creators being obsessed with the idea of making awful settings like Bludhaven work, which isolate the character further in my opinion, and want him to have his own rogues gallery filled with new villains no one really cares about. Every Nightwing run feels like it is basically trying to solve these two things and failing over and over. I just don't see it as a way to really elevate the character where maybe he could have a bigger presence in bigger stories. What the character needs more than anything are great standalone stories with top tier villains that can be easily repackaged to a wider audience. This is something the character does not have. He has been a solo character for 25+ years now, but I don't think I can really point to any great standalone Nightwing stories. There is no great Nightwing and Deathstroke story, there is no great Nightwing and Joker story, and there is no great Nightwing and Court of Owls story. 
> 
> All the character has are these long drawn out runs by creators where the quality fluctuates wildly. He doesn't really have a Black Mirror type of story as Nightwing. That is what creators need to figure out in my opinion. Usually you could point to a character's origin story as being the breakout story, but I've said this before but Nightwing's origin is such a mess. Judas Contract is iconic, but as a Nightwing origin story it is kind of lacking. That wasn't the purpose of it and it focuses on a lot of other things where the creation of Nightwing isn't what it is centered on. Then when they have tried to tell new Nightwing origin stories, like with Bruce firing Dick and so on, they have all been kind of awful. So Nightwing is kind of stuck with no great origin story to sell to the public. Then even outside of an origin there isn't really any Nightwing story I can think of that you can really call a great standalone story with a great villain. 
> 
> Under the Red Hood for Jason is a great example of what I'm talking about. It is a standalone story that checks all those boxes. It is a standalone story that is easy to sell to the public, it involves Batman and the Joker who is the biggest villain in all of comics and clearly establishes Jason's relationship with both, and as a bonus it is an origin story. It just functions really well at introducing people to Jason as Red Hood and because of this it has elevated Jason's character really far and shows the importance of these kind of stories. Nightwing just doesn't have anything like this. If creators could solve this then I think we will see Nightwing take that next jump.


Well, we know Dick will meet both Roy and Wally in TTA, and as bad as the series is, I kind of hope that after the big welcome they'll be able to interact more. 
Also, Taylor already more or less confirmed a meeting between Dick, Wally and Jon (not clear if all together or separately), so there is that as well.

I agree that Dick needs to do more things that influence not only Bludhaven/ Gotham, but just look at how many titles he is next month - Nightwing, TTA, titans united, Robins, Robin & Batman, and soon he'll also be in Tec in the shadow of the bat event. DC is giving us more content, and I want to believe that if they see that he generates interest and increases sales, they'll give us more of him, including appearances in other books.
I also hope that we'll get some interesting and more meaningful stories with him influencing events, but right now I just remember how bad things were just last year, and the improvement is so very significant.

----------


## HsssH

Robin/Batman looks promising, but the problem with other mention stories is that they are not really Dick's stories, he just happens to be there.

----------


## Superboy-Prime

> Right now the "big players" of the younger generation seem to be Jon, Yara and Damian.


The big players of DC's new generation are Jon, Yara, and Jace. Yara Flor is 21, Jace is in his 20s, and Jon is about to be 18. Damian isn't part of whatever it is they've got going on.

Hey, maybe he can be in Teen Titans Academy. (If he's not already Red X, amirite? Or maybe there's like three of 'em with Clownhunter.) Hey, is Dick a Red X too?

----------


## AmiMizuno

> The big players of DC's new generation are Jon, Yara, and Jace. Yara Flor is 21, Jace is in his 20s, and Jon is about to be 18. Damian isn't part of whatever it is they've got going on.
> 
> Hey, maybe he can be in Teen Titans Academy. (If he's not already Red X, amirite? Or maybe there's like three of 'em with Clownhunter.) Hey, is Dick a Red X too?


Not in the comics but in the 2003 Show he is. Surprised they never had it cannon that he was.

----------


## Godlike13

> Under the Red Hood for Jason is a great example of what I'm talking about. It is a standalone story that checks all those boxes. It is a standalone story that is easy to sell to the public, it involves Batman and the Joker who is the biggest villain in all of comics and clearly establishes Jason's relationship with both, and as a bonus it is an origin story. It just functions really well at introducing people to Jason as Red Hood and because of this it has elevated Jason's character really far and shows the importance of these kind of stories. Nightwing just doesn't have anything like this. If creators could solve this then I think we will see Nightwing take that next jump.


Under the Red Hood is a Batman story. It’s functions well at establishing Jason as a means to challenge and test Batman within the Batman mythos. Nightwing isn’t going to have a Batman story like that as that not really the objective with Nightwing. That’s why you see them trying to make settings like Bludhaven work and create him his own rogue gallery. So he can have stand alone stories and content.

----------


## Lal

> The big players of DC's new generation are Jon, Yara, and Jace. Yara Flor is 21, Jace is in his 20s, and Jon is about to be 18. Damian isn't part of whatever it is they've got going on.
> 
> Hey, maybe he can be in Teen Titans Academy. (If he's not already Red X, amirite? Or maybe there's like three of 'em with Clownhunter.) Hey, is Dick a Red X too?


Right now in the DCU Jon plays a role as the main superman of earth, Yara will play a part in the Amazon event, and Damian will cross paths with Deathstroke, Batman and Williamson teased that he'll do more and is connected to many events. Jace right now is in Gotham, dealing with the magistrate aftereffects.
He may become a significant character in the DCU in the future, but currently he isn't appearing in any book but his own, and isn't interacting with any of the DC characters.
It could all change, of course, but right now he isn't one of the main characters that affect the DCU.

----------


## AmiMizuno

> Right now in the DCU Jon plays a role as the main superman of earth, Yara will play a part in the Amazon event, and Damian will cross paths with Deathstroke, Batman and Williamson teased that he'll do more and is connected to many events. Jace right now is in Gotham, dealing with the magistrate aftereffects.
> He may become a significant character in the DCU in the future, but currently he isn't appearing in any book but his own, and isn't interacting with any of the DC characters.
> It could all change, of course, but right now he isn't one of the main characters that affect the DCU.


It's weird since in Future State he is Batman and none of the Batfam knew him. So the fact he is in a Batman book I would like to see why is he better to be Batman than Damian or let's say Damian or Terry when future state happens. I wonder if they will even stay after the next reboot since Dc has done that before and they don't stay or at least this version.

----------


## Lal

> It's weird since in Future State he is Batman and none of the Batfam knew him. So the fact he is in a Batman book I would like to see why is he better to be Batman than Damian or let's say Damian or Terry when future state happens. I wonder if they will even stay after the next reboot since Dc has done that before and they don't stay or at least this version.


We already know that future state won't happen. The magistrate, the police state, it all ends in the main bat-books and the aftermath is just mentioned in Jace's book.
The main Batman book is following Bruce abroad, Tec is dealing with the batfamily at least in the shadow of the bat event, and Jace is in his own book. I wonder if they'll use the shadow of the bat event to introduce him to the batfamily or if they'd just keep them as separate as possible.

----------


## Superboy-Prime

> We already know that future state won't happen. The magistrate, the police state, it all ends in the main bat-books and the aftermath is just mentioned in Jace's book.
> The main Batman book is following Bruce abroad, Tec is dealing with the batfamily at least in the shadow of the bat event, and Jace is in his own book. I wonder if they'll use the shadow of the bat event to introduce him to the batfamily or if they'd just keep them as separate as possible.


No, Jace is dealing with Fear State as it's happening. He's just going after Seer while the rest of the Bat-Family is mostly focused on Scarecrow. He's involved with the event just like Yara Flor is involved with Trial of the Amazons. He's on the cover of Fear State: Omega.

Damian is involved with Deathstroke and Batman to an extent, but he's still not part of the "Trinity" that DC is pushing. Like, for instance, if they make the Justice League book with Jon and Yara, it'll be the Next Batman in there, not Dami.

I would like to see Dick and Jace's dynamic from Future State: Nightwing return, though. Depends on if he's in Shadows of the Bat, that seems like a big thing for Dick. We've still got like, what? 8 weeks of storytelling from that event we don't know about.

----------


## Drako

> Not in the comics but in the 2003 Show he is. Surprised they never had it cannon that he was.


Dick is Red X in the comics too.
Teen Titans Academy is all about the New Red X, who is the fourth one. Dick was the first Red X and then three other dudes wore the mask.

----------


## Superboy-Prime

Dick as Red X deserves a flashback. Ah, to see him beating up Beast Brat!

----------


## Drako

> Dick as Red X deserves a flashback. Ah, to see him beating up Beast Brat!


I hope we can actually see his flashback as Red X, but that book is all over the place, i have no idea of what is going to happen.

----------


## Superboy-Prime

The current run ends at issue 12, so who knows? Still, seeing Red X kick in Wally's smug New Teen Titans face would've been fun.

----------


## Badou

> Under the Red Hood is a Batman story. Its functions well at establishing Jason as a means to challenge and test Batman within the Batman mythos. Nightwing isnt going to have a Batman story like that as that not really the objective with Nightwing. Thats why you see them trying to make settings like Bludhaven work and create him his own rogue gallery. So he can have stand alone stories and content.


And my point was that Bludhaven and his rogues will never matter beyond what they are currently. They aren't suddenly going to elevate the character after 25 years of trying. He needs more stories with already established top end villains that can be repackaged to a wider audience. That is what will elevate the character. Under the Red Hood was just an example, but there is no Nightwing story against an A list villain that tells a nice story that you can point to and say "read this" to someone interested in the character. All we have are these long runs where the quality is all over the place with no stories that really stand out. These stories will never be possible in Bludhaven because there is no top end villain in the setting.

----------


## Lal

> No, Jace is dealing with Fear State as it's happening. He's just going after Seer while the rest of the Bat-Family is mostly focused on Scarecrow. He's involved with the event just like Yara Flor is involved with Trial of the Amazons. He's on the cover of Fear State: Omega.
> 
> Damian is involved with Deathstroke and Batman to an extent, but he's still not part of the "Trinity" that DC is pushing. Like, for instance, if they make the Justice League book with Jon and Yara, it'll be the Next Batman in there, not Dami.
> 
> I would like to see Dick and Jace's dynamic from Future State: Nightwing return, though. Depends on if he's in Shadows of the Bat, that seems like a big thing for Dick. We've still got like, what? 8 weeks of storytelling from that event we don't know about.


Future state won't happen. That is known by now. In fear state is Jace is defenetly part of the ongoing event, but he's completely separated from the other books and characters, and Seer is pushed as an Oracle villain. Characters from task force Z are also on the cover of fear state omega, so I don't think it's very indicative.

We don't really know how and if DC plan to push the future state generation. Andy is still a baby, Jace and Yara are highly inexperienced, and Jon is young. Jace could become one of DC's big players, or he could just fade, we don't really know for sure. All I'm saying is that Damian is currently more prominent in the general DCU, and that it looks like he'll become even more so in the near future. 

Dick and Jace's dynamic was fun, but overall the future state event had more holes than a real plot and the books didn't work together at all. I hope the shadow of the bat event would define how each of the Gotham players are going to work and interact together. Right now from the covers it looks like Nightwing is going to work with Batwoman, Huntress, the batgirls and maybe Harley. As far as I can remember, Tim wasn't mentioned yet. Did he appear on any ot the covers?

----------


## Superboy-Prime

> Future state won't happen. That is known by now. In fear state is Jace is defenetly part of the ongoing event, but he's completely separated from the other books and characters, and Seer is pushed as an Oracle villain. Characters from task force Z are also on the cover of fear state omega, so I don't think it's very indicative.
> 
> We don't really know how and if DC plan to push the future state generation. Andy is still a baby, Jace and Yara are highly inexperienced, and Jon is young. Jace could become one of DC's big players, or he could just fade, we don't really know for sure. All I'm saying is that Damian is currently more prominent in the general DCU, and that it looks like he'll become even more so in the near future. 
> 
> Dick and Jace's dynamic was fun, but overall the future state event had more holes than a real plot and the books didn't work together at all. I hope the shadow of the bat event would define how each of the Gotham players are going to work and interact together. Right now from the covers it looks like Nightwing is going to work with Batwoman, Huntress, the batgirls and maybe Harley. As far as I can remember, Tim wasn't mentioned yet. Did he appear on any ot the covers?


Oh, yeah, sure. Damian is appearing more, as he doesn't need to be set up. He's just not part of the new generation being pushed is my point. He's not the third link to Jon and Yara.

And I knew Future State was never going to happen. It's still an indicator of where the line is going. You'll see that Justice League eventually, just with Jackson instead of Andy, most likely.

----------


## Claude

> And my point was that Bludhaven and his rogues will never matter beyond what they are currently. They aren't suddenly going to elevate the character after 25 years of trying. He needs more stories with already established top end villains that can be repackaged to a wider audience. That is what will elevate the character. Under the Red Hood was just an example, but there is no Nightwing story against an A list villain that tells a nice story that you can point to and say "read this" to someone interested in the character. All we have are these long runs where the quality is all over the place with no stories that really stand out. These stories will never be possible in Bludhaven because there is no top end villain in the setting.



In retrospect, I think "Grayson" fell in between two options for these easily repackagable, adaptable, easy to recommend stories. Successful enough that it got expanded away from being a maxi series, cut short before "Owls vs Spies" could become its own guest star heavy, Dick-led event story.

I wouldn't discount the impact the animated adaption of Under The Red Hood when it comes to its reputation, mind - they aren't there yet, but Taylor's "King Of Bludhaven/secret sister" plot or Sheridan's "Red X is back" story could be adaptable into punchy and impactful animated films with a few changes

You're right that, especially, the absence of a definitive "Nightwing And Deathstroke" story is a shocking oversight though. You'd think that was an obvious thing to go for.


Eta: "Nightwing - Parabola" ever happens, that might hit some of the targets - Gothamy and Bat Familyish as it sounds. A standalone by Snyder not tied into continuity has quite a good shot at cutting through.

----------


## Lal

> Oh, yeah, sure. Damian is appearing more, as he doesn't need to be set up. He's just not part of the new generation being pushed is my point. He's not the third link to Jon and Yara.
> 
> And I knew Future State was never going to happen. It's still an indicator of where the line is going. You'll see that Justice League eventually, just with Jackson instead of Andy, most likely.



But when do you think we'll see this JL? the JL in future state saw was 20 years into the future, when all the characters were very experienced. Right now, none of them are. ​
Jon could possibly be in the league now. Yara? maybe, if they'll be creative. it would be weird, but she could be there. But why would Jace be there when Bruce is still Batman? 
Take into account that Tynion said they had to tear the batfamily apart to set 5G, and that there was supposed to be a time jump. Right now the batfamily are working together, and If there won't be a time jump, why would Jace be there? He could probably be in the outsiders - it could work with his connection to Katana, and it sounds like a much more reasonable starting point for him.
Also, in 5G Damian was supposed to be a villain. He's no longer going to be a villain, and as he's probably the most prominent young character in the DCU right now (together with Jon). It's entirely possible we'll see him as part of the future ensemble of a future Justice League.

----------


## Lal

> In retrospect, I think "Grayson" fell in between two options for these easily repackagable, adaptable, easy to recommend stories. Successful enough that it got expanded away from being a maxi series, cut short before "Owls vs Spies" could become its own guest star heavy, Dick-led event story.
> 
> I wouldn't discount the impact the animated adaption of Under The Red Hood when it comes to its reputation, mind - they aren't there yet, but Taylor's "King Of Bludhaven/secret sister" plot or Sheridan's "Red X is back" story could be adaptable into punchy and impactful animated films with a few changes
> 
> You're right that, especially, the absence of a definitive "Nightwing And Deathstroke" story is a shocking oversight though. You'd think that was an obvious thing to go for.
> 
> 
> Eta: "Nightwing - Parabola" ever happens, that might hit some of the targets - Gothamy and Bat Familyish as it sounds. A standalone by Snyder not tied into continuity has quite a good shot at cutting through.


Since Red X is canon, is Dick's time as Deathstroke's apprentice also canon?
A Deasthstoke vs Nightwing story set in the present with flashbacks to their past could actually be interesting.

----------


## Superboy-Prime

> But when do you think we'll see this JL? the JL in future state saw was 20 years into the future, when all the characters were very experienced. Right now, none of them are. ​
> Jon could possibly be in the league now. Yara? maybe, if they'll be creative. it would be weird, but she could be there. But why would Jace be there when Bruce is still Batman? 
> Take into account that Tynion said they had to tear the batfamily apart to set 5G, and that there was supposed to be a time jump. Right now the batfamily are working together, and If there won't be a time jump, why would Jace be there? He could probably be in the outsiders - it could work with his connection to Katana, and it sounds like a much more reasonable starting point for him.
> Also, in 5G Damian was supposed to be a villain. He's no longer going to be a villain, and as he's probably the most prominent young character in the DCU right now (together with Jon). It's entirely possible we'll see him as part of the future ensemble of a future Justice League.


Nah, Damian has 0 chance of being in the Justice League. It's going to be the new Superman, Batman, and Wonder Woman (Girl?) Anyways, you're thinking too deep about it, just expect to see that lineup in present day minus Andy. And Bruce left Gotham and is probably quitting the League, so that'd be why. There are a lot of things that have to happen for the universe to get to the point where all of those characters can join the League. For instance, Jess Chambers hasn't made their way into the main universe yet. Doesn't at all mean they'll be replaced.

----------


## Godlike13

> And my point was that Bludhaven and his rogues will never matter beyond what they are currently. They aren't suddenly going to elevate the character after 25 years of trying. He needs more stories with already established top end villains that can be repackaged to a wider audience. That is what will elevate the character. Under the Red Hood was just an example, but there is no Nightwing story against an A list villain that tells a nice story that you can point to and say "read this" to someone interested in the character. All we have are these long runs where the quality is all over the place with no stories that really stand out. These stories will never be possible in Bludhaven because there is no top end villain in the setting.


Nightwing’s at the point where he needs different platforms to elevate the character. Comics are there to provide a library of content to stem from. Bludhaven and his own rogues helps them to make more Nightwing content rather then just more strictly Batman content. Sure an iconic solo story would be great, but still wouldn’t be enough to push him past the limits of the medium.

----------


## AmiMizuno

In many ways if they want Dick to be more of an impact he needs to have his own event with the Titans. Or at least get him to have more crossover arcs with other heroes. I would love a Comic with Dick and Wally. I don't want to use World's Finest but something unique to them

----------


## Claude

> In many ways if they want Dick to be more of an impact he needs to have his own event with the Titans. Or at least get him to have more crossover arcs with other heroes. I would love a Comic with Dick and Wally. I don't want to use World's Finest but something unique to them



The connection with Jon will do some of that, but... I'd expected something to be announced by now. There might be cameos planned already, but we're solicited for issues up to six months after there was a big "Clark asks Dick to look after Jon", and no big Guest Spot or crossover.

----------


## Badou

> Nightwing’s at the point where he needs different platforms to elevate the character. Comics are there to provide a library of content to stem from. Bludhaven and his own rogues helps them to make more Nightwing content rather then just more strictly Batman content. Sure an iconic solo story would be great, but still wouldn’t be enough to push him past the limits of the medium.


I don't think Bludhaven does that though. It is what you want it to do, but what it actually does is remove him from the bigger story content that fans actually want while being stuck in this cycle of not really producing anything that can stand alone in the end. I think you can tell just as good if not better stories just setting him in Gotham with everyone else. Since it is a setting that has the rogues and supporting characters that readers want to see in their natural setting. Top end ones. Bludhaven doesn't have any of that. You have to drag a Barbara or a Tim to Bludhaven from Gotham or drag in a top tier villain in from somewhere else because Bludhaven doesn't contain any of it on its own. It is why you don't see Bludhaven adapted in any other media. All they have done for it is make it a section of Gotham in the Young Justice show, but it served no real purpose, and is a net negative overall. I think spending so much time and effort in trying to make Bludhaven into something just isn't worth it.

----------


## Aahz

> And my point was that Bludhaven and his rogues will never matter beyond what they are currently. They aren't suddenly going to elevate the character after 25 years of trying. He needs more stories with already established top end villains that can be repackaged to a wider audience. That is what will elevate the character. Under the Red Hood was just an example, but there is no Nightwing story against an A list villain that tells a nice story that you can point to and say "read this" to someone interested in the character. All we have are these long runs where the quality is all over the place with no stories that really stand out. These stories will never be possible in Bludhaven because there is no top end villain in the setting.


I don't think that you really need A-List villains for a stand out story, Batman has several ones with villains that were completely new at the time, like Year One, Court of the Owls or The Cult.

problem is more that they usually don't do big stand alone stories in the books the Batfamily members other than Batman.

----------


## Avi

> Robin/Batman looks promising, but the problem with other mention stories is that they are not really Dick's stories, he just happens to be there.


From what I have seen it looks very much like a Dick Grayson title. Apparently, Lemire and Nguyen wanted to do a Robin: Earth One book way back in 2017 so maybe this is the next best thing they were allowed to do. Robin at the front of the title also seems to indicate Bruce is for once playing second fiddle. 




> Dick as Red X deserves a flashback. Ah, to see him beating up Beast Brat!


Lol, a flashback should be a must. Maybe the next Robins-type comic is Red Xs.




> Since Red X is canon, is Dick's time as Deathstroke's apprentice also canon?
> A Deasthstoke vs Nightwing story set in the present with flashbacks to their past could actually be interesting.


Even without the Red X apprenticeship, a certain kind of training should be canon because of Rebirth. At least I mean to remember that Slade training Dick was mentioned as part of the Lazarus Contract backstory.

That a Nightwing vs Deathstroke story hasn't happened yet truly is a crime. But how long has it been that Dick and Slade have had a meaningful interaction in the comics? DC really doesn't care about them as enemies. They want Bruce, Jason, and Damian to face off against Slade.

----------


## Badou

> In retrospect, I think "Grayson" fell in between two options for these easily repackagable, adaptable, easy to recommend stories. Successful enough that it got expanded away from being a maxi series, cut short before "Owls vs Spies" could become its own guest star heavy, Dick-led event story.
> 
> I wouldn't discount the impact the animated adaption of Under The Red Hood when it comes to its reputation, mind - they aren't there yet, but Taylor's "King Of Bludhaven/secret sister" plot or Sheridan's "Red X is back" story could be adaptable into punchy and impactful animated films with a few changes
> 
> You're right that, especially, the absence of a definitive "Nightwing And Deathstroke" story is a shocking oversight though. You'd think that was an obvious thing to go for.
> 
> Eta: "Nightwing - Parabola" ever happens, that might hit some of the targets - Gothamy and Bat Familyish as it sounds. A standalone by Snyder not tied into continuity has quite a good shot at cutting through.


I just don't see how Taylor's run can be adapted. It is another long, drawn out story arc that doesn't really contain any memorable villains. It can't really stand alone at all. Like they would just adapt Dixon's run with Blockbuster with Dick as a cop probably if they ever look to adapt anything from Bludhaven as Taylor's run is very much copying it in a lot of ways. But even with that Nightwing vs Blockbuster doesn't really have mass appeal. You'd need someone of Deathstroke's level to push for an adaptation, but Nightwing doesn't have any great standalone stories of that level. Like you said the absence of a great Deathstroke story does stick out given their history.

Maybe some new Red X story would work, but not how Sheridan is telling it in TTA. Just because Red X has some mass appeal, but you'd have to create an entirely new story around Red X and you also have the problem with Red X being so similar to Red Hood as well. A great comic adaption of Dick creating Red X and then having to use it to team up with a Deathstroke like in the show in some great standalone self contained story might work though. 

Yeah, I think Snyder's story will be our best bet at replicating something that can stand alone like what Black Mirror was for him when he was Batman. Even a Snyder said I think it will take place in Gotham, which gives it a bigger chance of being looked at as a more "important" story.

----------


## Aahz

> I don't think Bludhaven does that though. It is what you want it to do, but what it actually does is remove him from the bigger story content that fans actually want while being stuck in this cycle of not really producing anything that can stand alone in the end. I think you can tell just as good if not better stories just setting him in Gotham with everyone else. Since it is a setting that has the rogues and supporting characters that readers want to see in their natural setting. Top end ones. Bludhaven doesn't have any of that. You have to drag a Barbara or a Tim to Bludhaven from Gotham or drag in a top tier villain in from somewhere else because Bludhaven doesn't contain any of it on its own. It is why you don't see Bludhaven adapted in any other media. All they have done for it is make it a section of Gotham in the Young Justice show, but it served no real purpose, and is a net negative overall. I think spending so much time and effort in trying to make Bludhaven into something just isn't worth it.


I don't think that him being in Gotham would really change anything, there are tons of books of Batfamily members that were set in Gotham (several incarnations of Robin, Batgirl, Catwoman, Batwoman, Birds or Prey ...) and they usually never go up against A-List Batman villains or support characters, outside of events/crossovers. And for those Nightwing usually comes over too.

----------


## Godlike13

> I don't think Bludhaven does that though. It is what you want it to do, but what it actually does is remove him from the bigger story content that fans actually want while being stuck in this cycle of not really producing anything that can stand alone in the end. I think you can tell just as good if not better stories just setting him in Gotham with everyone else. Since it is a setting that has the rogues and supporting characters that readers want to see in their natural setting. Top end ones. Bludhaven doesn't have any of that. You have to drag a Barbara or a Tim to Bludhaven from Gotham or drag in a top tier villain in from somewhere else because Bludhaven doesn't contain any of it on its own. It is why you don't see Bludhaven adapted in any other media. All they have done for it is make it a section of Gotham in the Young Justice show, but it served no real purpose, and is a net negative overall. I think spending so much time and effort in trying to make Bludhaven into something just isn't worth it.


Look at Tynion Batman’s run and why he had to lean so hard on all his new characters. They can’t just use whatever Bat character or rogues they want, but if they establish their own stable of characters they can use and control them more easily. That’s what Bludhaven does. It’s a Nightwing specific setting Nightwing’s creators can have a little more control to create in exclusively for Nightwing. It’s easy to get trapped in the formula it incentivizes, but there is a purpose for it. Like it or not. Established ecosystems like Bludhaven make it easier for them to more readily produce. For better or worse.

----------


## Badou

> I don't think that you really need A-List villains for a stand out story, Batman has several ones with villains that were completely new at the time, like Year One, Court of the Owls or The Cult.
> 
> problem is more that they usually don't do big stand alone stories in the books the Batfamily members other than Batman.


Year One falls into the origin story I said before. Those can get around needed some top tier villain, but I already mentioned how Nightwing's origin story is so messy. Batman overall is in that unique position where he doesn't need top tier villains all the time since he is the biggest comic character around. Although most of his biggest stories involve his bigger villains as the focus or as supporting characters, but he can create new top tier villains by just creating great stories. Bane, Court of Owls, and so on, but I don't think anyone other than Spider-man has the ability to do that.

----------


## Badou

> Look at Tynion Batman’s run and why he had to lean so hard on all his new characters. They can’t just use whatever Bat character or rogues they want, but if they establish their own stable of characters they can use and control them more easily. That’s what Bludhaven does. It’s a Nightwing specific setting Nightwing’s creators can control and create in. It’s easy to get trapped in the formula it incentivizes, but there is a purpose for it. Like it or not. Established ecosystems like Bludhaven make it easier for them to more readily produce. For better or worse.


Then why hasn't it worked? I think you have a very hard ceiling of what a Bludhaven can do. A Blockbuster is the best it can create after 25 years and the ecosystem hasn't really elevated the character or put him in a position to succeed like you think it can. If Taylor's run ends with Bludhaven still not really being able to create and hold great villains or supporting characters then maybe you have to start wondering if the setting itself is a problem. Where rather being this place to elevate Nightwing it is acting more like an anchor where writers get stuck in this cycle of retelling the same stories over and over by trying to "fix" Bludhaven with no real solution.

----------


## Aahz

> but I already mentioned how Nightwing's origin story is so messy.


"Nightwing Year One" and "Batman Adventures the Lost Years" are both pretty good origin stories imo.

Btw. there is Nightwing-Deathstroke-story ("Nightwing: Renegade") it is just not a particularly good story.

----------


## Godlike13

> Then why hasn't it worked? I think you have a very hard ceiling of what a Bludhaven can do. A Blockbuster is the best it can create after 25 years and the ecosystem hasn't really elevated the character or put him in a position to succeed like you think it can. If Taylor's run ends with Bludhaven still not really being able to create and hold great villains or supporting characters then maybe you have to start wondering if the setting itself is a problem. Where rather being this place to elevate Nightwing it is acting more like an anchor where writers get stuck in this cycle of retelling the same stories over and over by trying to "fix" Bludhaven with no real solution.


It has worked for their purposes. They have been regularly producing Nightwing content for decades now. It’s not intended to be what elevates the character. Bludhaven is a middle ground of having a Gotham like establish ecosystem, but with more Nightwing aligned control. Now there are disadvantages and advantages to that. Of course. And it swings toward different ends of its disadvantages and advantages probably too often, but the idea of what it affords production isn’t without its merits. Bludhaven doesn’t create, that’s not its job. It’s job is to make it easier for creators to create. Which it does. Often to Nightwing’s detriment. Cause easy doesn’t mean quality.

----------


## SiegePerilous02

I would really love a stand alone Black Label book that pits Nightwing against Deathstroke.

Being Dick's arch nemesis would be the only context I'd be interested in reading Slade in at this point. Use him there and throw Blockbuster in the trash. Blockbuster being a top tier villain isn't ever going to happen.

----------


## Badou

> I don't think that you really need A-List villains for a stand out story, Batman has several ones with villains that were completely new at the time, like Year One, Court of the Owls or The Cult.
> 
> problem is more that they usually don't do big stand alone stories in the books the Batfamily members other than Batman.


Sure, but I think Nightwing is now the second longest solo series from the Batman franchise next to Batman? It is at or close to 300 issues. So you figure his book would have a higher chance of having them given the volume of stories we are at now.

----------


## Restingvoice

> It has worked for their purposes. They have been regularly producing Nightwing content for decades now. It’s not intended to be what elevates the character. Bludhaven is a middle ground of having a Gotham like establish ecosystem, but with more Nightwing aligned control. Now there are disadvantages and advantages to that. Of course. And it swings toward different ends of its disadvantages and advantages probably too often, but the idea of what it affords production isn’t without its merits. Bludhaven doesn’t create, that’s not its job. It’s job is to make it easier for creators to create. Which it does. Often to Nightwing’s detriment. Cause easy doesn’t mean quality.


Yeah none of them as far as I can tell are thinking about elevating/expanding Nightwing beyond the usual Batfam-Titans status quo. Bludhaven itself was created so he has his own playground but can be called back if necessary. 

Only attempt at elevation after Perez Titans I know was the cancelled Nightwing/Starfire wedding where they want them to be the it couple of DCU at the time, since at that time Clark and Lois aren't married yet, and Nightwing wasn't under Batfam editorial yet.

Since Morrison revealed that he has more stories about Batman Dick and Robin Damian, the next gen Dynamic Duo, I guess we can count that, but I don't know how long it would last even if New 52 didn't happen. 

Grayson doesn't count because they're just lucky with the creative team, and it was the only spy book at that time, so there's no expanded universe to explore.

----------


## AmiMizuno

So this leaves the question where do you anchor Bludhaven. Because they never really give us a find of it unlike Gotham or Metropolis. They really somewhat go back and forth. I feel like the city would make sense if it was a mix of Metropolis and Gotham. Like the skyline and two how it works. Yea in Gotham it should be corrupted but we also see for the most part   they are going for a Las Vegas vibe which is fine. I like the idea that the city looks clean and has low crime. but that's not all true they lie about the number and have ways in making the city look clean. That it fits with Grayson's mostly happy personality but also fits the dark origins.

I hope one day we do get a Starfire/Dick mini series(Even if lt's not cannon) I mean there are fans who would want more Nightwing comics and people who ship those two.

I'm hoping with an animated movie we might get Nightwing solo one.

----------


## HsssH

It looks like we are likely to get "Robin loves Stargirl" OGN like we got with Raven and Beast Boy.

----------


## Rac7d*

> So this leaves the question where do you anchor Bludhaven. Because they never really give us a find of it unlike Gotham or Metropolis. They really somewhat go back and forth. I feel like the city would make sense if it was a mix of Metropolis and Gotham. Like the skyline and two how it works. Yea in Gotham it should be corrupted but we also see for the most part   they are going for a Las Vegas vibe which is fine. I like the idea that the city looks clean and has low crime. but that's not all true they lie about the number and have ways in making the city look clean. That it fits with Grayson's mostly happy personality but also fits the dark origins.
> 
> I hope one day we do get a Starfire/Dick mini series(Even if lt's not cannon) I mean there are fans who would want more Nightwing comics and people who ship those two.
> 
> I'm hoping with an animated movie we might get Nightwing solo one.


Why do you want a stafire/Dick book?     To be a gambit and rouge, mr and mrs X type?    Starfire doesnt need a duo she need a solo. She has nothing to herself to anchor her in the world of DC without the Titans and insultingly Nightwing. The way fans demand for him to be with her has started to feel as if they know she cant go anywhere without him.  Why has starfire continued to make earth her home ? Becasue she is a titans. But what happens when dc decides they want a teen titans brand instead, where does she go, where does she belong.  Nightwing returns to DC head brand of gotham second in command. Cyborg despite live action drama hurting usage of him, would be regulated back to JL. Raven being now an adult, no longer at a constant struggle with her abilities could probably dive deeper into magic and horror genre of of DC along with JLD. But where does starfire go? What does she want?  Her only notable antagonist her sister has been pacified over the years and if she is ruling over the planet(if its not blown up) then starfire is forever relived of the responsibility. She may be a 6ft plus orange alien, but doesn't receive fear or discrimination because she is SOOOOOO gorgeous so no adversity their unlike her peers. At times starfire has felt like doesn't always belong on earth but, that is only ever be from not making a life for herself out side of the titans without dick.  A book or a relationship between thease two is not equal so much relies on him.  People don't ask for her only THEM.   Weather or not you find the relationship between Dick and Babs boring, they can be together, work together and still do solo work and lead other teams away from each other.       Presently in in titans academy  she has become a background character, even with her status elevated to Headmistress(a  role that should be Donna's) and her only sideplot is a will she wont she with Nightwing. That can't be all she offers?

----------


## Frontier

> It looks like we are likely to get "Robin loves Stargirl" OGN like we got with Raven and Beast Boy.


I think you meant Starfire, but Robin and Courtney together might actually be kind of cute...although is she closer to Tim or Damian in age?

----------


## Aahz

> I think you meant Starfire, but Robin and Courtney together might actually be kind of cute...although is she closer to Tim or Damian in age?


Pre Flashpoint Courtney was Tim's age, current continuity I have no idea.

----------


## John Venus

> Why do you want a stafire/Dick book?     To be a gambit and rouge, mr and mrs X type?    Starfire doesnt need a duo she need a solo. She has nothing to herself to anchor her in the world of DC without the Titans and insultingly Nightwing. The way fans demand for him to be with her has started to feel as if they know she cant go anywhere without him.  Why has starfire continued to make earth her home ? Becasue she is a titans. But what happens when dc decides they want a teen titans brand instead, where does she go, where does she belong.  Nightwing returns to DC head brand of gotham second in command. Cyborg despite live action drama hurting usage of him, would be regulated back to JL. Raven being now an adult, no longer at a constant struggle with her abilities could probably dive deeper into magic and horror genre of of DC along with JLD. But where does starfire go? What does she want?  Her only notable antagonist her sister has been pacified over the years and if she is ruling over the planet(if its not blown up) then starfire is forever relived of the responsibility. She may be a 6ft plus orange alien, but doesn't receive fear or discrimination because she is SOOOOOO gorgeous so no adversity their unlike her peers. At times starfire has felt like doesn't always belong on earth but, that is only ever be from not making a life for herself out side of the titans without dick.  A book or a relationship between thease two is not equal so much relies on him.  People don't ask for her only THEM.   Weather or not you find the relationship between Dick and Babs boring, they can be together, work together and still do solo work and lead other teams away from each other.       Presently in in titans academy  she has become a background character, even with her status elevated to Headmistress(a  role that should be Donna's) and her only sideplot is a will she wont she with Nightwing. That can't be all she offers?


Wanting a Dick/Starfire book isn't the same as not wanting Kory to get a solo.   

There is tons of lore stuff for Kory to explore from the Vega System, Tamarian culture itself, X'hal, her brother Ryand'r and all that stuff involving the Darkstars and the Omega Men to the LEGION.  

But the relationship with Dick Grayson was a major part of her character and I think most fans feel that it's a loose end that needs to be addressed. I don't think there is any harm in an out of continuity story exploring the two's relationship and maybe bringing Nightstar back in an Elseworlds type setting.

----------


## Ascended

> I think you meant Starfire, but Robin and Courtney together might actually be kind of cute...although is she closer to Tim or Damian in age?


I'd support Robin-Stargirl. I don't know if Tim has landed on a label for his orientation yet but he's liked girls in the past and what young teenaged man wouldn't find Courtney the most adorable thing ever?

Courtney is a fantastic character who needs to get more exposure. I'm glad her show seems to be doing well (I don't watch the CW so I haven't seen it) but I wish DC would allow her to go beyond the JSA's sphere of influence (especially since the JSA has been gone for a friggin decade). Let her hang with Young Justice or the Titans, if the JSA is off the board. Or Flash. Or Superman. Or Wonder Woman. Or who the hell ever. Just get her into some book somewhere!

This is the character that launched Johns' career, really. She's beloved by fans, tied tightly to one of the biggest creators DC has had in decades, and is connected to one of the oldest franchises in comics. Why the f*ck is this kid not a bigger deal by now?

----------


## WonderNight

> I'd support Robin-Stargirl. I don't know if Tim has landed on a label for his orientation yet but he's liked girls in the past and what young teenaged man wouldn't find Courtney the most adorable thing ever?
> 
> Courtney is a fantastic character who needs to get more exposure. I'm glad her show seems to be doing well (I don't watch the CW so I haven't seen it) but I wish DC would allow her to go beyond the JSA's sphere of influence (especially since the JSA has been gone for a friggin decade). Let her hang with Young Justice or the Titans, if the JSA is off the board. Or Flash. Or Superman. Or Wonder Woman. Or who the hell ever. Just get her into some book somewhere!
> 
> This is the character that launched Johns' career, really. She's beloved by fans, tied tightly to one of the biggest creators DC has had in decades, and is connected to one of the oldest franchises in comics. Why the f*ck is this kid not a bigger deal by now?


That all sounds good but the problem is that once dc puts you into a franchise you're locked in. So she locked into the jsa. This mind set really hurts characters like vixen and captain Adam or star girl because there locked down to a franchise or don't have one.

----------


## Frontier

> I'd support Robin-Stargirl. I don't know if Tim has landed on a label for his orientation yet but he's liked girls in the past and what young teenaged man wouldn't find Courtney the most adorable thing ever?
> 
> Courtney is a fantastic character who needs to get more exposure. I'm glad her show seems to be doing well (I don't watch the CW so I haven't seen it) but I wish DC would allow her to go beyond the JSA's sphere of influence (especially since the JSA has been gone for a friggin decade). Let her hang with Young Justice or the Titans, if the JSA is off the board. Or Flash. Or Superman. Or Wonder Woman. Or who the hell ever. Just get her into some book somewhere!
> 
> This is the character that launched Johns' career, really. She's beloved by fans, tied tightly to one of the biggest creators DC has had in decades, and is connected to one of the oldest franchises in comics. Why the f*ck is this kid not a bigger deal by now?


I'm speaking in regards to the Young Justice cartoon, but I guess they haven't confirmed whether Tim and Cassie are still a thing (dear lord, he has a thing for blondes). 

Probably more viable than Billy or Atom-Smasher for Courtney  :Stick Out Tongue: .

----------


## AmiMizuno

> Why do you want a stafire/Dick book?     To be a gambit and rouge, mr and mrs X type?    Starfire doesnt need a duo she need a solo. She has nothing to herself to anchor her in the world of DC without the Titans and insultingly Nightwing. The way fans demand for him to be with her has started to feel as if they know she cant go anywhere without him.  Why has starfire continued to make earth her home ? Becasue she is a titans. But what happens when dc decides they want a teen titans brand instead, where does she go, where does she belong.  Nightwing returns to DC head brand of gotham second in command. Cyborg despite live action drama hurting usage of him, would be regulated back to JL. Raven being now an adult, no longer at a constant struggle with her abilities could probably dive deeper into magic and horror genre of of DC along with JLD. But where does starfire go? What does she want?  Her only notable antagonist her sister has been pacified over the years and if she is ruling over the planet(if its not blown up) then starfire is forever relived of the responsibility. She may be a 6ft plus orange alien, but doesn't receive fear or discrimination because she is SOOOOOO gorgeous so no adversity their unlike her peers. At times starfire has felt like doesn't always belong on earth but, that is only ever be from not making a life for herself out side of the titans without dick.  A book or a relationship between thease two is not equal so much relies on him.  People don't ask for her only THEM.   Weather or not you find the relationship between Dick and Babs boring, they can be together, work together and still do solo work and lead other teams away from each other.       Presently in in titans academy  she has become a background character, even with her status elevated to Headmistress(a  role that should be Donna's) and her only sideplot is a will she wont she with Nightwing. That can't be all she offers?


See your point. I actually thought a lot about a solo Starfire idea. Her other enemy can be Mirage. I thought about her actually getting a bit of hate despite being beautiful since being exotic also has it's down sides. I thought maybe Starfire does still have issues with the citdel and uses the Titans to help others be free. Maybe there are aliens tracking humans and other aliens onto Earth and Kori helps free them. We also never get to learn her religion which is important. There is some much her Tamara we don't know. They never fully have us get a grasp of their culture. It would be nice to explore it more

I had an idea that Starfire thought about having the Titans do a Titan branch in space more specifically in Vega system. Ryand'r is one of the first members.





> It looks like we are likely to get "Robin loves Stargirl" OGN like we got with Raven and Beast Boy.




Really where? Is it the Kami book ?

----------


## AmiMizuno

Found this little gem by Babs Tarr

----------


## AmiMizuno

> Found this little gem by Babs Tarr






> Wanting a Dick/Starfire book isn't the same as not wanting Kory to get a solo.   
> 
> There is tons of lore stuff for Kory to explore from the Vega System, Tamarian culture itself, X'hal, her brother Ryand'r and all that stuff involving the Darkstars and the Omega Men to the LEGION.  
> 
> But the relationship with Dick Grayson was a major part of her character and I think most fans feel that it's a loose end that needs to be addressed. I don't think there is any harm in an out of continuity story exploring the two's relationship and maybe bringing Nightstar back in an Elseworlds type setting.


What would you want to see done with the Vega System or Tamarean culture? One thing not truly touched on is food and fully who X'Hal is. We have seen her but never really how she has interacted with Starfire and others. Citidel is also a big part of Starfire's life. Omega man can still be a part of Titan's and Starfire's rogue.

----------


## Lal

Today's Nightwing issue felt more like a Batgirl book than a Nightwing book.
I like Babs, but I hope that once the batgirls series begins she'll just be a supporting character for Nightwing in his book, not a lead.

Also not a fan of the art. The issue was still solid, but it wasn't great.

----------


## mib86

If the first book of the cross-over was about Dick and Bruce this second one is about him and Barbara, i wonder what will be in the third and final one...
Writing was still really solid, i loved the monologue at the start and at the end.

----------


## Lal

> If the first book of the cross-over was about Dick and Bruce this second one is about him and Barbara, i wonder what will be in the third and final one...
> Writing was still really solid, i loved the monologue at the start and at the end.


Based on the cover, it would be Dick with the batfamily. Tim, Babs, Cass and Steph are all on the cover.

----------


## Rac7d*

> Found this little gem by Babs Tarr


She loves her dick pics

----------


## Rac7d*

> Today's Nightwing issue felt more like a Batgirl book than a Nightwing book.
> I like Babs, but I hope that once the batgirls series begins she'll just be a supporting character for Nightwing in his book, not a lead.
> 
> Also not a fan of the art. The issue was still solid, but it wasn't great.


This is an event crossover anyway his book was going to be used to support a larger story

----------


## Godlike13

> Today's Nightwing issue felt more like a Batgirl book than a Nightwing book.
> I like Babs, but I hope that once the batgirls series begins she'll just be a supporting character for Nightwing in his book, not a lead.
> 
> Also not a fan of the art. The issue was still solid, but it wasn't great.


Yes and no, it’s clearly an Oracle story but it’s still providing a perspective on Dick through Babs. Which is a common technique. 

I enjoyed it, Oracle needs more stories and i don’t mind different perspectives on Dick. I actually think it’s beneficial overall to change it up from time to time. I mean I don’t always want to just read Dick’s thoughts about himself, it’s nice to sometimes read others thoughts about him. I also really like what they are doing with Dick’s sticks. Using them as an all encompassing super gadget instead of him having a belt of gadgets. Oh and I appreciate how the story tried to frame Dick leaving Bludhaven to come to Gotham, his girlfriend called. That works for me. Babs been there for him in Bludhaven, and hey when your lady calls. I can get that. That being said, the art was ok. It’s not bad, and it’s stylized. Something I like in artists. It’s just not gelling with me personally though. Not exactly sure why if I’m being honest. And I think it helps I’m a big fan of Babs too. For those that might not be this issue might land differently.

----------


## Frontier

Seeing it in the flashback made me miss the classic Batgirl look over the new one.

----------


## AmiMizuno

> Seeing it in the flashback made me miss the classic Batgirl look over the new one.


Agree. I hope we see her in that costume again. It makes me wonder if we will see that look in the movie.

----------


## Rac7d*

> Agree. I hope we see her in that costume again. It makes me wonder if we will see that look in the movie.


Well her next costume should reflect her dual identity as an active Oracle perhaps it can have flavors from her first costume and mixed with the design we had from future state

----------


## Claude

> Seeing it in the flashback made me miss the classic Batgirl look over the new one.


Also, I've always understood the desire to update Dick's classic Robin suit - but the fact of the matter is that it looks better on page than any of the attempted replacements or redesigns. Was glad to see it.

Fun issue - good team-up, nice to see Barbara's view of Dick, they both got to show off some competencies.... But it's genuinely hilarious to me how the last issue before the cross-over had Dick, Barbara and Tim together in Bludhaven, and now Taylor's had to have them all bump into each other again to allow for the rest of "Fear State". We're spinning our wheels, but using the issues that "don't count" as part of the wider story to push Dick and Barbara's relationship up a level is a good use.

Also, we'll see how it sticks the landing - but so far, I'm liking how it reads as a "Dick and Barbara vs an evil Oracle and robot guys everywhere" story without much other connection to the underwhelming main Event.


Other Appearances - gently spoilered so people can be surprised, but nothing plotty:

*spoilers:*
A couple of panels of Nightwing in Shazam #4, but only a couple. The Wally West/Jon Kent meeting has happened, so we don't necessarily have all three of them meeting up together on  the horizon as some had thought - but no reason to think it's the only time Wally and Jon talk, I suppose. 
*end of spoilers*

----------


## Frontier

> Well her next costume should reflect her dual identity as an active Oracle perhaps it can have flavors from her first costume and mixed with the design we had from future state


People still demanding the Three Jokers suit.

----------


## Restingvoice

> Pre Flashpoint Courtney was Tim's age, current continuity I have no idea.


She's a high schooler in New 52, so still Tim's age

----------


## Blue22

> Today's Nightwing issue felt more like a Batgirl book than a Nightwing book.
> I like Babs, but I hope that once the batgirls series begins she'll just be a supporting character for Nightwing in his book, not a lead.
> 
> Also not a fan of the art. The issue was still solid, but it wasn't great.


That's, more or less, my stance on it. Though I guess that's to be expected when it's a tie-in to a very Oracle-centric event.

Either way, yeah. It wasn't bad. It wasn't great. It's just there and I'm ready for things to go back to Bludhaven. Also not a huge fan of Dick and Babs getting back together for what feels like the trillionth time. I still wish he'd stay branched off from her and Kory. My only hope is that they stay together this time if Taylor's really committing to this.

----------


## Frontier

> That's, more or less, my stance on it. Though I guess that's to be expected when it's a tie-in to a very Oracle-centric event.
> 
> Either way, yeah. It wasn't bad. It wasn't great. It's just there and I'm ready for things to go back to Bludhaven. Also not a huge fan of Dick and Babs getting back together for what feels like the trillionth time. I still wish he'd stay branched off from her and Kory. My only hope is that they stay together this time if Taylor's really committing to this.


Tim saying "finally" like this isn't the umpteenth time they've made out  :Stick Out Tongue: .

----------


## millernumber1

> Tim saying "finally" like this isn't the umpteenth time they've made out .


But when's the last time they did? Seems like it's been many, many years.

----------


## Frontier

> But when's the last time they did? Seems like it's been many, many years.


Summer of Lies? I think it was implied they had sex before/after the BrucexSelina non-wedding.

----------


## Blue22

There's also their "wedding" in Death Metal

----------


## Vordan

Damn Babs basically hijacked the book. Cackled at the Ric shot however. Issue was fine but I’m bored of the Seer plot. It’s a Babs plotline that they’re using Nightwing’s book to tell.

----------


## Drako

> Damn Babs basically hijacked the book. Cackled at the Ric shot however. Issue was fine but I’m bored of the Seer plot. It’s a Babs plotline that they’re using Nightwing’s book to tell.


It really is, but the whole Fear State event is just boring asf.
I can't wait for this to be over and we can go back to the main storyline.

Well, at least just one more to go.

----------


## Restingvoice

> But when's the last time they did? Seems like it's been many, many years.


They kissed in Bludhaven but Tim wasn't there to see it. 

They haven't dated since Rebirth's first new year. After that Dick dated Shawn. 




> Summer of Lies? I think it was implied they had sex before/after the BrucexSelina non-wedding.


They kissed in Summer, but didn't do anything after the non wedding.
After that there's the wedding in Metal.

----------


## Vordan

> It really is, but the whole Fear State event is just boring asf.
> I can't wait for this to be over and we can go back to the main storyline.
> 
> Well, at least just one more to go.


I was really hyped for a big Scarecrow story and Tynion really let me down. It’s just boring and I don’t get why, he’s killing it elsewhere but on Batman it’s just so lifeless. My opinion on Nightwing tie-ins to Batfamily events being pointless has certibaly not changed with Fear State Nightwing should’ve just opted out like Robin did.

----------


## Drako

For sure. And looks like it didn't even gave that little boost sales wise that this types of events usually do cause the book is already selling very well.

----------


## Frontier

> I was really hyped for a big Scarecrow story and Tynion really let me down. It’s just boring and I don’t get why, he’s killing it elsewhere but on Batman it’s just so lifeless. My opinion on Nightwing tie-ins to Batfamily events being pointless has certibaly not changed with Fear State Nightwing should’ve just opted out like Robin did.


I wonder if he talked about his problems writing the book on his newsletter.



> For sure. And looks like it didn't even gave that little boost sales wise that this types of events usually do cause the book is already selling very well.


Ever since they announced it I've been saying it was too soon for another Bat-event after Joker War.

----------


## Drako

> I wonder if he talked about his problems writing the book on his newsletter.
> 
> Ever since they announced it I've been saying it was too soon for another Bat-event after Joker War.


Yeah. I just hope they take a break from this events on the bat line.

Funny how i'm excited for the Wonder Woman event, but can not wait for the Bat one to be over.

----------


## Lady Nightwing

Eh, today's issue was fine I guess. I'm not collecting the rest of Fear State so I'm a little lost on what's going on. I think I have the general gist of it.  My main problem is that Dick seems like a peripheral character in his own book and Evil Oracle for what feels like the millionth time. (OK, so it's more like 4-5 times but still...)

----------


## AmiMizuno

> Yeah. I just hope they take a break from this events on the bat line.
> 
> Funny how i'm excited for the Wonder Woman event, but can not wait for the Bat one to be over.


I think it's because they don't have Wonder Woman events that much. In many ways I feel like none of these events have no impact after they are done. The issue is it doesn't feel like it's special or very impactful without they have so many events. It feels better if they spread it few events. 

Not only that but Nightwing doesn't need to always be in an event. Yes he is in the Batfam but I feel like having him in an Event should have Nightwing like has the last option. That he is the last person ?

----------


## Iclifton

Yeah, not a fan of this issue or crossover. I don`t mind an event crossover as long as they are well written. This was super blah. I guess if your Batgirl fan you`ll probably love it.

----------


## MakeNightwingGreatAgain

Are you guys seriously enjoying Nightwing right now? Is no one else concerned about Dick being OOC and fannon pandering? Please give me a reason to continue to support his character because Im at a point where DC has seriously just said F you to him and left him to die. DickxBabs is once again forced down our throats. Why cant dick be single and grow up a little before doing anything serious in the relationship department. Whatever happened to his friendships with Wally, Roy ad Donna? Why is are his friends either kids or Bruce/babs. Why did Taylor give his parents a tragic backstory. What is going on with Nightwing? Are we seriously ok with this lol

Im sorry if Im being too passionate but Nightwing used to be my favorite character and I feel like dont know every know who this character is anymore. Whatever happened to the badass who didnt rush into things and planned things out meticulously and was considered Deathstrokes arch nemesis.

If Tom Taylor wanted to write Batgirl and batfam fannon, why not just do that with the webcomic or go to batgirl solo. Nightwing has fallen from greatness gah.

Im sorry lol I just wanna know if anyone feels the same? I dont just wanna talk about dicks relationships but that the only interesting thing about him now and even then Im so done with reducing him down to just his two ships and how sexy he looks.

----------


## Iclifton

> Are you guys seriously enjoying Nightwing right now? Is no one else concerned about Dick being OOC and fannon pandering? Please give me a reason to continue to support his character because I’m at a point where DC has seriously just said “F you” to him and left him to die. DickxBabs is once again forced down our throats. Why can’t dick be single and grow up a little before doing anything serious in the relationship department. Whatever happened to his friendships with Wally, Roy ad Donna? Why is are his friends either kids or Bruce/babs. Why did Taylor give his parents a tragic backstory. What is going on with Nightwing? Are we seriously ok with this lol
> 
> I’m sorry if I’m being too passionate but Nightwing used to be my favorite character and I feel like don’t know every know who this character is anymore. Whatever happened to the badass who didn’t rush into things and planned things out meticulously and was considered Deathstroke’s arch nemesis.
> 
> If Tom Taylor wanted to write Batgirl and batfam fannon, why not just do that with the webcomic or go to batgirl solo. Nightwing has fallen from greatness gah.
> 
> I’m sorry lol I just wanna know if anyone feels the same? I don’t just wanna talk about dick’s relationships but that the only interesting thing about him now and even then I’m so done with reducing him down to just his two ships and how sexy he looks.


This particular issue? No. This run? Yes, very much. Its the best he's been in years. Honestly, the run has not been too focused on how good looking he is or on his relationship with Babs. Kind of makes me think you are not actually reading it. I have to know, what Nightwing run were you reading when he was your favorite character?

----------


## MakeNightwingGreatAgain

> This particular issue? No. This run? Yes, very much. Its the best he's been in years. Honestly, the run has not been too focused on how good looking he is or on his relationship with Babs. Kind of makes me think you are not actually reading it. I have to know, what Nightwing run were you reading when he was your favorite character?


Tomasi Nightwing 
Snyder Black Mirror
Higgins Nightwing (before the endless crossovers)
Seeley/King Grayson
Dixon early 90s Nightwing
Wolfman NTT

I have been keeping up and I wouldnt have said what I said if I wasnt. Its ok to have differing opinions. Nightwing rebirth to me is not that great so far which is why I made the post. I know I was a little aggressive so I do apologize. But this Nightwing solo is probably in the bottom three in my opinion. Dick just feels like a shell of his former self. And a lot of his decisions make zero sense. He is acting like a side character in his own solo and that started before Taylor and is being emphasized more by Taylor.

Its been very focused on him and babs and not only that, it feels like Im reading tumblr fanfic Im not gonna lie lol art is gray but its not enough to save bad writing. I guess Im tired of beating around the bush when it comes to his character. Its just frustrating to see him being done so dirty.

----------


## Iclifton

> Tomasi Nightwing 
> Snyder Black Mirror
> Higgins Nightwing (before the endless crossovers)
> Seeley/King Grayson
> Dixon early 90s Nightwing
> Wolfman NTT
> 
> I have been keeping up and I wouldnt have said what I said if I wasnt. Its ok to have differing opinions. Nightwing rebirth to me is not that great so far which is why I made the post. I know I was a little aggressive so I do apologize. But this Nightwing solo is probably in the bottom three in my opinion. Dick just feels like a shell of his former self. And a lot of his decisions make zero sense. He is acting like a side character in his own solo and that started before Taylor and is being emphasized more by Taylor.
> 
> Its been very focused on him and babs and not only that, it feels like Im reading tumblr fanfic Im not gonna lie lol art is gray but its not enough to save bad writing. I guess Im tired of beating around the bush when it comes to his character. Its just frustrating to see him being done so dirty.


Babs has been a character and yes they have started a relationship. But an element of a story is not the same thing as the focus. This is the first issue that really focused on her. TBH he everything so far has been in character for the Grayson. I would agree that both Grayson and his time as Batman were superior runs. But I guess different opions, other than Dixon I find this run FAR better and in character than all the other solo Nightwing runs. Higgins was far from good. I can see how some may find Seeleys to be good but I was not a fan of it other than a coupe villains (Deathwing and Raptor). Other than Taylors run, I would agree rebirth Nightwing has been underwhelming.

----------


## MakeNightwingGreatAgain

> Babs has been a character and yes they have started a relationship. But an element of a story is not the same thing as the focus. This is the first issue that really focused on her. TBH he everything so far has been in character for the Grayson. I would agree that both Grayson and his time as Batman were superior runs. But I guess different opions, other than Dixon I find this run FAR better and in character than all the other solo Nightwing runs. Higgins was far from good. I can see how some may find Seeleys to be good but I was not a fan of it other than a coupe villains (Deathwing and Raptor). Other than Taylors run, I would agree rebirth Nightwing has been underwhelming.


Yes, I see. The opinion difference most likely comes from me wanting Dick to be more independent from the Batfam rather than being with Batfam. As much as I enjoyed Nightwing Rebirth at first, it got stale the minute Seeley forced his own characters instead of continuing what he started with Grayson. The Ric storyline honestly wasnt that bad of an idea, it was just executed poorly. It gave us a love interest that was interesting and going somewhere, but that got kicked out of existence with Taylor who is kinda undoing a lot of Dick's development in my opinion. I think Taylor is a fan panderer which is ok for a title like Batman where the character and world is solid and impenetrable. But it doesnt work for a character like Nightwing who has never been allowed to have solid  mythos development. Anytime Dick is able to grow, they reel him back in with the Batfam using either Babs or Bruce.

Dick has significant friendships with Wally, Roy, Kory and Donna. However, their impact on Dick has been completely destroyed and the only side characters that have any clout in his solos are always batfam (again, mainly Babs). So that's why i feel the way i do because it feels like DC just doenst want to let Nightwing be free. He needs his own established and impenetrable character development, side characters, rogues' gallery and love interest BEFORE you include fannon in your writing. So its not that i dont see what Taylor is doing, i can see why many batfam fans like it. But it's not the direction Nightwing needs to take right now. Nightwing needs a good 5-10 years old solid development before you incorporate fanon. Wally West was able to be known as THE FLASH after 30 years of dvelopment (and still is despite Barry being the one pushed). And then DC completely nixed him. Even John Stewart was able to get out of Hal's shadow and become known as THE Green Lantern. Nightwing never really had or has the chance to be that great on his own and outside batmans shadow. Nightwing hasn't truly done anything iconic since NTT. His solo is propped up by loyal fans (which I am amongst, so no hate there). 

Nightwing has great potential but is never allowed to reach any of it. They have pushed his relationship with his own parents to the background in favor of Bruce/Alfred despite them being a major part of why Dick became a vigilante in the first place. I dont think any Nightwing Rebirth writer has actually either accomplished or is near accomplishing pushing Nightwing into legendary status. The only way that will happen is for DC to give Nightwing the batman treatment and start treating the character like he has his own editorial. But he doesn't. Nightwing needs to develop outside batfam. Dick shouldn't have to be batman to be written properly. Everything Dick does as Batman he can do as Nightwing. If DC wants Dick to be permanently a part of the Batfam apart of the side characters to Batman, they need to cancel his solo. What's the point of a solo when it always turns into a Batfam team up book?

Im sorry for the rant. None of the negativity is directed at you! Its more directed at DC/batfam editorial.

----------


## AmiMizuno

> Yes, I see. The opinion difference most likely comes from me wanting Dick to be more independent from the Batfam rather than being with Batfam. As much as I enjoyed Nightwing Rebirth at first, it got stale the minute Seeley forced his own characters instead of continuing what he started with Grayson. The Ric storyline honestly wasnt that bad of an idea, it was just executed poorly. It gave us a love interest that was interesting and going somewhere, but that got kicked out of existence with Taylor who is kinda undoing a lot of Dick's development in my opinion. I think Taylor is a fan panderer which is ok for a title like Batman where the character and world is solid and impenetrable. But it doesnt work for a character like Nightwing who has never been allowed to have solid  mythos development. Anytime Dick is able to grow, they reel him back in with the Batfam using either Babs or Bruce.
> 
> Dick has significant friendships with Wally, Roy, Kory and Donna. However, their impact on Dick has been completely destroyed and the only side characters that have any clout in his solos are always batfam (again, mainly Babs). So that's why i feel the way i do because it feels like DC just doenst want to let Nightwing be free. He needs his own established and impenetrable character development, side characters, rogues' gallery and love interest BEFORE you include fannon in your writing. So its not that i dont see what Taylor is doing, i can see why many batfam fans like it. But it's not the direction Nightwing needs to take right now. Nightwing needs a good 5-10 years old solid development before you incorporate fanon. Wally West was able to be known as THE FLASH after 30 years of dvelopment (and still is despite Barry being the one pushed). And then DC completely nixed him. Even John Stewart was able to get out of Hal's shadow and become known as THE Green Lantern. Nightwing never really had or has the chance to be that great on his own and outside batmans shadow. Nightwing hasn't truly done anything iconic since NTT. His solo is propped up by loyal fans (which I am amongst, so no hate there). 
> 
> Nightwing has great potential but is never allowed to reach any of it. They have pushed his relationship with his own parents to the background in favor of Bruce/Alfred despite them being a major part of why Dick became a vigilante in the first place. I dont think any Nightwing Rebirth writer has actually either accomplished or is near accomplishing pushing Nightwing into legendary status. The only way that will happen is for DC to give Nightwing the batman treatment and start treating the character like he has his own editorial. But he doesn't. Nightwing needs to develop outside batfam. Dick shouldn't have to be batman to be written properly. Everything Dick does as Batman he can do as Nightwing. If DC wants Dick to be permanently a part of the Batfam apart of the side characters to Batman, they need to cancel his solo. What's the point of a solo when it always turns into a Batfam team up book?
> 
> Im sorry for the rant. None of the negativity is directed at you! Its more directed at DC/batfam editorial.


Has long has the Bateditors have control over him. I want a nice Crossover event with the Titans but Bateditors only want the Batfam. That's how much they care for Dick's other relationships. In a sense that's why I don't want him in a relationship with Babs because that can easily make it more pinned down and have him no longer be a Titan since the Titans have a on and off. Him moving back to Gotham. That's why I do want him to have his own editor.

----------


## Claude

> Tomasi Nightwing 
> Snyder Black Mirror
> Higgins Nightwing (before the endless crossovers)
> Seeley/King Grayson
> Dixon early 90s Nightwing
> Wolfman NTT
> 
> I have been keeping up and I wouldnt have said what I said if I wasnt. Its ok to have differing opinions. Nightwing rebirth to me is not that great so far which is why I made the post. I know I was a little aggressive so I do apologize. But this Nightwing solo is probably in the bottom three in my opinion. Dick just feels like a shell of his former self. And a lot of his decisions make zero sense. He is acting like a side character in his own solo and that started before Taylor and is being emphasized more by Taylor.
> 
> Its been very focused on him and babs and not only that, it feels like Im reading tumblr fanfic Im not gonna lie lol art is gray but its not enough to save bad writing. I guess Im tired of beating around the bush when it comes to his character. Its just frustrating to see him being done so dirty.


It's interesting - I haven't read a lot of NTT, so that might be where it's coming from, but in those Tomasi/Seeley/King/Higgins runs you mention I don't recognise "the badass who didnt rush into things and planned things out meticulously" - because those books, as well as Morrison, really hit the beat of "Dick Grayson prefers to work without a net". He'd take precautions sure, like oxygenating his blood in Black Mirror, but being reluctant to rush in and working every angle in advance doesn't seem like how the character's been for decades at this point!


Can't deny there's a whiff of.... if not "fan-fiction", then certainly "fan-pandering" to Taylor's writing though. But there's a thin line between that being obnoxious and a book being excited to tell you how great it's lead is, and to my eyes Taylor's stayed the right side so far.




> I want a nice Crossover event with the Titans but Bateditors only want the Batfam.


Remember when Christopher Priest wanted Seeley's run to tie into _Lazarus Contract_? I always wondered whether it was editorial fiefdoms that put a stop to it - but given A) The high quality of Priest's run, and B) The very low quality of _Lazarus Contract_ as arrived on shelves, I can't decide whether we missed out on the classic Nightwing/Deathstroke story we've talking about the character needing, or whether Seeley dodged a creative bullet.

----------


## MakeNightwingGreatAgain

> Has long has the Bateditors have control over him. I want a nice Crossover event with the Titans but Bateditors only want the Batfam. That's how much they care for Dick's other relationships. In a sense that's why I don't want him in a relationship with Babs because that can easily make it more pinned down and have him no longer be a Titan since the Titans have a on and off. Him moving back to Gotham. That's why I do want him to have his own editor.


Since the late 80s. Nightwing became a big character when Marv created him as part of the NTT editorial (he was actually VERY popular and thats when lots of people started to say he could become the Spiderman of DC Comics with the announcement of the Solo). Bat editorial took him back and pretty much retconned everything that happened in NTT except for a few things. Dick was best with Titans because it allowed to him to get out of Batfam's shadow and do something on his own with his own friends whom he chose to be by his side. And as i said, im completely 100% over Dick and relationships. He needs to be single for a couple years before I can't take anymore love interests seriously. If Dick ends up with Babs permanently, its a slap in the face to Kory. If he ends up with Kory, it will be forced and a slap in the face to Babs. He needs another love interest to eclipse both Babs and Kory. Babs and Kory never stuck for a reason and THATS OK. Dick needs a relationship similar to Clark/Lois or Barry/Iris where they become Synonymous with Nightwing and ALWAYS be apart of his mythos as THE LOVE of his life in every single cross over. 

You are right about Babs. Babs seems to always emphasize the need for Dick to be grounded or to change his ways. But really Dick NEEDS to fly. Its the whole basis for his character. He needed to be independent and free from restraints. If he dates anyone, it would be a non superpowered person who will be willing to follow him wherever he goes BECAUSE Dick can not stay still. He needs the interaction and adventure. He needs to soar the skies. Babs will not let him do that because Babs is a independent person who believes in being grounded and will never follow a man. Babs is great for Dick to learn more about himself when he is discovering adulthood, but as an adult, I don't see how they stay together. Dick needs a love interest to kinda merge with him to become one person, someone who can help him re-create that magic his parents had. And there is nothing wrong with that because that's just how he is. Bat editorial loves having Dick say things and do another. Dick and Kory were great for Dick learning that superpowered people are not as bad as Bruce said and that love is really isnt a bad thing. But it just didn't work out, and that's OK.

Dick will never be able to grow unless they let him move past everything that is in the past.

----------


## MakeNightwingGreatAgain

> It's interesting - I haven't read a lot of NTT, so that might be where it's coming from, but in those Tomasi/Seeley/King/Higgins runs you mention I don't recognise "the badass who didnt rush into things and planned things out meticulously" - because those books, as well as Morrison, really hit the beat of "Dick Grayson prefers to work without a net". He'd take precautions sure, like oxygenating his blood in Black Mirror, but being reluctant to rush in and working every angle in advance doesn't seem like how the character's been for decades at this point!
> 
> 
> Can't deny there's a whiff of.... if not "fan-fiction", then certainly "fan-pandering" to Taylor's writing though. But there's a thin line between that being obnoxious and a book being excited to tell you how great it's lead is, and to my eyes Taylor's stayed the right side so far.
> 
> 
> 
> Remember when Christopher Priest wanted Seeley's run to tie into _Lazarus Contract_? I always wondered whether it was editorial fiefdoms that put a stop to it - but given A) The high quality of Priest's run, and B) The very low quality of _Lazarus Contract_ as arrived on shelves, I can't decide whether we missed out on the classic Nightwing/Deathstroke story we've talking about the character needing, or whether Seeley dodged a creative bullet.


Yeah, ill be honest, Nightwing hasn't been that calculating, meticulous planner for a long time! Nightwing doest need a net, which is why it's of the utmost importance plan ahead and not hurt yourself. The net is there for precaution, you won't need precaution if you know what you're doing. Nightwing knows what he is doing because he is supposed to be the second greatest detective and top 5 fighter in the DC Universe (yes i know Dick is no longer like this, but this is what he is supposed to be). He never did do anything without knowing exactly what he was doing beforehand. This is directly influence from his time spent with his parents where they practiced and did everything perfectly because of it. They didn't need a net because they were that polished. That's kinda how i view it the whole net thing. We don't really get to see this Nightwing anymore. We got some glimpse of it in Grayson and Higgins but it has pretty much left the building In Rebirth. Thats why i felt so betrayed by Seeley rebirth run because this guy did some right things with Dick in Grayson and carried none of that over.

Nightwing, in my opinion, hasn't been truly great since the early 90s. He had some good ideas in N52 but it went nowhere. For Taylor, like I've said before, Nightwing is not a character that needs to be consistently told how great he is. His lack of solid characterization and world building is a huge turnoff to many new readers. Show don't tell is what's needed for Nightwing atm. Taylor's writing would make more sense if we already know who Nightwing was, and he has solid mythos that are consistent in every cross over, but he doesn't. So Taylor can tell us how great his Nightwing run is all he wants. It means nothing when Nightwing as a character can not back it up.

----------


## Frontier

> Yeah. I just hope they take a break from this events on the bat line.
> 
> Funny how i'm excited for the Wonder Woman event, but can not wait for the Bat one to be over.


I'm not sure what to expect from Williamson. I mean, he had major storylines in The Flash but it didn't feel like constant event-after-event, but he wasn't writing the flagship book of an entire line.

----------


## Grayson - The Dark Heir

Speaking of Williamson, he's the one who gave us Doom Metal, as in, Dick leading a version of the Justice League and Legion of Doom temporarily, on top of giving us some Titans interactions that we really needed. That has absolutely no bearing on a Batman event, but I feel like he'd at least give Dick some respect.

Slightly related, but I'm actually interested in Dick's involvement in the Shadows of the Bat and just other Gotham books. If DC is going to force the Batfamily as a concept and specifically force Nightwing into it, I'm happy to see the Batbooks finally putting in some work to actually (re)build some relationships and dynamics. In the coming months, we're going to see Dick interacting with Kate, Helena, Steph, and Cass to varying degrees. That matters a lot more to me than pushing the same old dynamics and relationships we see so often these days, like Dick with Babs, Tim, and Jason. 

I've also made my peace with Nightwing not being allowed to do big things. It's a fine book that other people seem to like, and I get good art of it usually so it's cool. When so much other stuff at DC is trying new things with their characters, there's no real point in getting upset about the Nightwing book imo.

----------


## Frontier

> Speaking of Williamson, he's the one who gave us Doom Metal, as in, Dick leading a version of the Justice League and Legion of Doom temporarily, on top of giving us some Titans interactions that we really needed. That has absolutely no bearing on a Batman event, but I feel like he'd at least give Dick some respect.
> 
> Slightly related, but I'm actually interested in Dick's involvement in the Shadows of the Bat and just other Gotham books. If DC is going to force the Batfamily as a concept and specifically force Nightwing into it, I'm happy to see the Batbooks finally putting in some work to actually (re)build some relationships and dynamics. In the coming months, we're going to see Dick interacting with Kate, Helena, Steph, and Cass to varying degrees. That matters a lot more to me than pushing the same old dynamics and relationships we see so often these days, like Dick with Babs, Tim, and Jason. 
> 
> I've also made my peace with Nightwing not being allowed to do big things. It's a fine book that other people seem to like, and I get good art of it usually so it's cool. When so much other stuff at DC is trying new things with their characters, there's no real point in getting upset about the Nightwing book imo.


At least it might make the Batfamily feel less like lipservice like they have been in the past few years.

----------


## MakeNightwingGreatAgain

> Speaking of Williamson, he's the one who gave us Doom Metal, as in, Dick leading a version of the Justice League and Legion of Doom temporarily, on top of giving us some Titans interactions that we really needed. That has absolutely no bearing on a Batman event, but I feel like he'd at least give Dick some respect.
> 
> Slightly related, but I'm actually interested in Dick's involvement in the Shadows of the Bat and just other Gotham books. If DC is going to force the Batfamily as a concept and specifically force Nightwing into it, I'm happy to see the Batbooks finally putting in some work to actually (re)build some relationships and dynamics. In the coming months, we're going to see Dick interacting with Kate, Helena, Steph, and Cass to varying degrees. That matters a lot more to me than pushing the same old dynamics and relationships we see so often these days, like Dick with Babs, Tim, and Jason. 
> 
> I've also made my peace with Nightwing not being allowed to do big things. It's a fine book that other people seem to like, and I get good art of it usually so it's cool. When so much other stuff at DC is trying new things with their characters, there's no real point in getting upset about the Nightwing book imo.


haha I'm so sorry if I came off as off putting. I was just in a mood that I needed to get it out. 

I'm starting to accept the fact that Dick will probably never be great but i just don't want to because i feel like he has so much potential. I feel like if I'm not honest and just say "hey the arts fine and people like it so whatever" then I'm not actually standing up for my own opinion on the character. I feel like I (and many other Nightwing fans) did that for so long which is why things for Nightwing never change and readers are either so loyal that they will stay for the art and fan service or they just leave all together. I think people have valid reasons to be upset and those reasons should be taken into consideration and not just fanned away because there are some people who like it (not aimed at you but in general).

but I do agree with everything else you said!

----------


## Godlike13

There's a Titans book right now. We even have that teacher Nightwing some people said would be a good direction for him. The Titans books have Dick to use, they just don't do anything with him. And anytime someone points that out it's quickly countered with well he has a solo. But Titans should be in his solo too.

Like it or not this was the direction they needed to take. Ric drove off audiences. They need to return to form to try an signal an audience back. After Ric destroyed and mocked what people liked about Nightwing, they are now responding to that by leaning back into all things Nightwing. And if this didn't work Nightwing would have been in big trouble. As general character sentiment and marketability was shot.

----------


## Blue22

> The Titans books have Dick to use, they just don't do anything with him. Titans should be in his solo too.


Which is exactly why I always thought JUST having TTA as the sole Titans book was a bad idea. We finally got most of the big name Titans together and they're playing second banana to a bunch of barely interesting new kids. Surely there's some superhero stuff and character building that the teachers could be doing while they're not teaching, right? Let's see some of that. Do what's been done before with the Titans books and split them between the teens and the veterans.

----------


## Rac7d*

> Has long has the Bateditors have control over him. I want a nice Crossover event with the Titans but Bateditors only want the Batfam. That's how much they care for Dick's other relationships. In a sense that's why I don't want him in a relationship with Babs because that can easily make it more pinned down and have him no longer be a Titan since the Titans have a on and off. Him moving back to Gotham. That's why I do want him to have his own editor.


Roy is dead , Donna can barley get face time with Diana, Wally has only recently gotten his life together and Kory doesn’t do anything if she is not apart of the titans. With the exception of wally, it’s not as if any of them have books and can host him, their best hope is coming to his book. Dick should drop into the flash at some point I think both their lives are stable enough for it now.  The rebirth titans team was a great idea, that DC spat on when the JL shut it down. I feels like it’s hard to recreate this team when the JL could do it again

----------


## Godlike13

The JL isn’t real. The Titans writer was just more interested in dissecting the Titans and its characters rather then build anything. Despite everything already being in shambles. Titans used the JL to fit the narrative the Titans creators wanted to explore.

----------


## MakeNightwingGreatAgain

> There's a Titans book right now. We even have that teacher Nightwing some people said would be a good direction for him. The Titans books have Dick to use, they just don't do anything with him. And anytime someone points that out it's quickly countered with well he has a solo. But Titans should be in his solo too.
> 
> Like it or not this was the direction they needed to take. Ric drove off audiences. They need to return to form to try an signal an audience back. After Ric destroyed and mocked what people liked about Nightwing, they are now responding to that by leaning back into all things Nightwing. And if this didn't work Nightwing would have been in big trouble. As general character sentiment and marketability was shot.


People didnt like Ric because it was a good idea that was poorely executed. They went to far into the left field and now They are leaning too far into fannon and that is also not the correct direction. Nightwing hasnt been this standout bestseller in years. In fact, he makes enough to just stay afloat which is not a bad thing but its not something Id gloat about.. If he wasnt part of batfam I fear he would have been let go as a character years ago. TeAcher dick is ok but I just dont understand why they wont let dick get the Spider-Man/flash treatment. Dick is always relegated to this mentor/teacher role and is never really able to step out of that stepping stone area.

I get that pandering to fannon has bought some fans back, but what gonna happen when they stop the pander? Are they really gonna let fannon decide the direction dick need to go rather than true development? I guess this is a question for DC. NTT Nightwing was legendary and that was why he became as popular as he did. They should be taking notes from that era and not from tumblr. Many Nightwing fans only care about dick when it comes to romance or sexualizing him. If they liked dick as a character, youd think they would support him outside batfam but they dont.

I agree with your main point, but If people want dick to have more fans, they need to stop the pandering and actually work on developing him.

----------


## Frontier

> Which is exactly why I always thought JUST having TTA as the sole Titans book was a bad idea. We finally got most of the big name Titans together and they're playing second banana to a bunch of barely interesting new kids. Surely there's some superhero stuff and character building that the teachers could be doing while they're not teaching, right? Let's see some of that. Do what's been done before with the Titans books and split them between the teens and the veterans.


Yeah, I wasn't completely against TTA as a concept but I feel like people expect a more traditional Titans book (which might still be coming, I think it was rumored). 

I guess that's Titans United by default.

----------


## Lal

> Yeah, I wasn't completely against TTA as a concept but I feel like people expect a more traditional Titans book (which might still be coming, I think it was rumored). 
> 
> I guess that's Titans United by default.


Tim Sheridan said before that he plans to leave TTA around issue #12. After that anything could happen. Even with the academy settings, the book could be so much better. 

As for the Wally-Dick meeting - Taylor continues to tease about it. Maybe it could be around issue 88? 
It's possible DC wanted to give the Titans academy the first shot at the reunion between the Titans (we already know that both Roy and Wally would be there in TTA issues 8/9).

So as far as characters appearing in the book we already had Babs and Tim, in the next issue and in urban legends 10 we'll see Dick with the batgirls, in the annual we'll also see him interacting with Jason, so hopefully around January we'll get Wally.
I'm not against showing that Dick is the heart of the batfamily by exploring his connection with the batfam characters in the first arc, as long as in the next arc we'll also see guest appearances of the Titans and other characters showing that he's also a meaningful character in the DCU.

----------


## HsssH

> Remember when Christopher Priest wanted Seeley's run to tie into _Lazarus Contract_? I always wondered whether it was editorial fiefdoms that put a stop to it - but given A) The high quality of Priest's run, and B) The very low quality of _Lazarus Contract_ as arrived on shelves, I can't decide whether we missed out on the classic Nightwing/Deathstroke story we've talking about the character needing, or whether Seeley dodged a creative bullet.


I remember reading interviews advertising this event and what we got in the end was very different so editors were clearly forcing Priest to change his story. Maybe bat editors saw what was going on and said no on one of their books being involved.

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## Aahz

> Remember when Christopher Priest wanted Seeley's run to tie into _Lazarus Contract_? I always wondered whether it was editorial fiefdoms that put a stop to it - but given A) The high quality of Priest's run, and B) The very low quality of _Lazarus Contract_ as arrived on shelves, I can't decide whether we missed out on the classic Nightwing/Deathstroke story we've talking about the character needing, or whether Seeley dodged a creative bullet.


With priest Batman/Deathstroke story also being a total mess I'm going with "dodged a creative bullet".

----------


## HsssH

What mess are you talking about in Batman/Deathstroke?

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## Godlike13

> People didn’t like Ric because it was a good idea that was poorely executed. They went to far into the left field and now They are leaning too far into fannon and that is also not the correct direction. Nightwing hasn’t been this standout bestseller in years. In fact, he makes enough to just stay afloat which is not a bad thing but it’s not something I’d gloat about.. If he wasn’t part of batfam I fear he would have been let go as a character years ago. TeAcher dick is ok but I just don’t understand why they won’t let dick get the Spider-Man/flash treatment. Dick is always relegated to this mentor/teacher role and is never really able to step out of that stepping stone area.
> 
> I get that pandering to fannon has bought some fans back, but what gonna happen when they stop the pander? Are they really gonna let fannon decide the direction dick need to go rather than true development? I guess this is a question for DC. NTT Nightwing was legendary and that was why he became as popular as he did. They should be taking notes from that era and not from tumblr. Many Nightwing fans only care about dick when it comes to romance or sexualizing him. If they liked dick as a character, you’d think they would support him outside batfam but they don’t.
> 
> I agree with your main point, but If people want dick to have more fans, they need to stop the pandering and actually work on developing him.


The merits behind the idea of Ric is irrelevant at this point, it was what it was and the response to it was clear. Just like the response to this run has been pretty clear. I think it’s fair to say it’s been successful. Nightwing was in the danger zone of being a borderline sustainable seller, let alone a mid tier book. 

Eventually the return to form will run its course and they’ll mix it up again. But Titans is clearly not a saving grace. At least not in comics. We have him in Titans comics. They do nothing with him. It’s a punishing environment that affords him no development and justifies it because the others are less popular and marketable.

----------


## Vordan

> What mess are you talking about in Batman/Deathstroke?


Priest wanting to make Damian Slade’s kid I expect. Some are still sore over that lol.

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## HsssH

> Priest wanting to make Damian Slade’s kid I expect. Some are still sore over that lol.


I seriously can't understand this argument when Priest's story does the exact opposite and drills down that a) Bruce is the father b) Bruce would be the father even if he wasn't biological father.

----------


## Aahz

> What mess are you talking about in Batman/Deathstroke?


To me nothing that happened in that story made much sense, starting with the motivation of the characters.

I would have to read it to go in to detail, but just from what I remember:
- the whole story revolving just about this faked DNA test, makes already for a pretty weak plot, with no real stakes
- Batman just wanting to shut down Deathstroke because of that, and not because he is supervillain makes also not much sense
- Alfred and Wintergreen conspiring behind  Batman's and Deathstroke's? Why would they do that?
- Why is Deathstroke just leaving Damian to tag along with him?
- Why does Tim look like Dick/Jason in Black and white?

----------


## Avi

Yeah, dodged a bullet. As Priest said himself: I find Dick Grayson to be the most boring Wonder Bread boilerplate character ever to pull on spandex. Lazarus Contract was never gonna be Deathstroke vs Nightwing.

----------


## Godlike13

> Yeah, dodged a bullet. As Priest said himself: I find Dick Grayson to be the most boring Wonder Bread boilerplate character ever to pull on spandex. Lazarus Contract was never gonna be Deathstroke vs Nightwing.


He was making a point. And being honest cookie cutter, well adjusted, boy scout is unfortunately a common take on Dick. One i despise because it leads to people in the audience seeing him that way.

----------


## WonderNight

> Yeah, dodged a bullet. As Priest said himself: I find Dick Grayson to be the most boring Wonder Bread boilerplate character ever to pull on spandex. Lazarus Contract was never gonna be Deathstroke vs Nightwing.


I remember that, why did he feel that way again?

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## Godlike13

> I remember that, why did he feel that way again?


He elaborates in later comments,




> _I didn’t mean to suggest NW has no flaws. I meant to to suggest I, personally, find him boring, when he shouldn’t be. There’s more untapped potential in Grayson than there is oil in Russia. NW should be one of DC’s top-selling books. Take Batman and turn him inside out.
> 
> “A character looking at their trauma and tragedy and saying ‘you don’t own me’ is inspiring to me. ”
> 
> Yeah. That”s what I’m sayin’. Let’s bring that into sharper focus._

----------


## Avi

> He elaborates in later comments,


Ah, I knew there was another one. This more nuanced take always makes me think Priest could be able to write a story with Dick that I actually really want to see, but there needs to be a base respect for the character Priest claims to have in his response that I dont see when I look at Priests Dick Grayson.

The few times Dick appears in Priest's Deathstroke he is there to be talked down to or ignored (or killed) as far as I remember.

----------


## Konja7

> Ah, I knew there was another one. This more nuanced take always makes me think Priest could be able to write a story with Dick that I actually really want to see, but there needs to be a base respect for the character Priest claims to have in his response that I don’t see when I look at Priest’s Dick Grayson.
> 
> The few times Dick appears in Priest's Deathstroke he is there to be talked down to or ignored (or killed) as far as I remember.


It's likely because Priest sees Dick as a boring character even if he thinks it shouldn't be that way.

In itself, Priest is blaming the writing, but that doesn't change the bad impression about a character that the writing leaves on him.

----------


## Badou

Priest was free to use Dick how he liked in his Lazarus Contract story, but he just shit on the character in it. I'm sorry, but Priest's comments always just came across as sour grapes to me. He's allowed to feel the way he does of course, not everyone has to enjoy the same characters, but all he had the character do was act like an idiot, made him have no idea what to do with the Damian and Wally situation, be a horrible leader, and then get beat up by Rose in his flashback that went nowhere. That was it. Those comments from Priest were him trying to walk back his true feelings where he doesn't really enjoy Dick's character and disliked Dick's fans being critical of how he was writing his story. It was clear Damian was the Robin character he was drawn to and then did everything in his power to try and write Damian more and connect him even deeper to Deathstroke. I feel like we dodged a bullet with Priest as I don't think you can really write a character well that you don't enjoy let alone respect. I imagine him writing the character more would just be him cutting the legs out from under the character over and over and acting like it is unique when that is what already happens in nearly every Nightwing run, lol.

Also his comments about how Dick should resent Bruce for making him a child solider I never agreed with. Since it ignores the fact that Dick didn't have a typical childhood where before Robin he was already putting himself in danger because he enjoyed it while in the circus. So Robin was something Dick wanted to do over Bruce pushing it on him to cause resentment.

----------


## Grayson - The Dark Heir

> haha I'm so sorry if I came off as off putting. I was just in a mood that I needed to get it out.


Oh you're all good, I actually wasn't commenting on you specifically. I've been pretty negative about things in the past, so it was more me talking about me lmao. Dick does have a lot of potential, like in the most simple words, he's the first and original superhero raised in the world of heroes by other heroes. That DC doesn't know how to make the most of that really sucks. TTA is the closest we'll get and that's something at least. 

But the thing is we're getting lots of characters and books doing the things I wish Nightwing would. Aquaman: The Becoming is basically touching on the exact vibes I would expect from Robin flashbacks, while being a fantastic book. The Flash is letting Wally grow up, finally, and just doing great DCU stories based on team-ups and interactions and wild action scenes. And so on. 




> Dick is always relegated to this mentor/teacher role and is never really able to step out of that stepping stone area.


This part I don't agree with.

For one, Dick has never mentored anyone that isn't part of the Batfamily aside from Rose and now future Teen Titans. Maybe Jon soon, eventually. He's not been allowed to interact with anyone meaningfully outside of the Batfamily for quite a while, so TTA is a new thing for him, getting to inspire characters again the way he did back when Tim's generation were the new kids. Hopefully Williamson eventually touches on Dick and Rose's relationship given she's literally working with Damian in the Robin book. 

The other thing is Dick as a mentor being a stepping stone is a weird idea because that's never been the case. Dick jobbing? Sure, Batman stories need him to suck whenever possible because he makes for a good measuring stick. But as a mentor? None of the Robins, including Damian, no one else in the Batfamily, and definitely not Rose, are using Dick as a stepping stone. That's what Batman would be, if anything, but marking a character as "great" as Batman as just a stepping stone is a pretty hollow idea. We'd be lucky if Dick ever got that far.

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## MakeNightwingGreatAgain

> The merits behind the idea of Ric is irrelevant at this point, it was what it was and the response to it was clear. Just like the response to this run has been pretty clear. I think its fair to say its been successful. Nightwing was in the danger zone of being a borderline sustainable seller, let alone a mid tier book. 
> 
> Eventually the return to form will run its course and theyll mix it up again. But Titans is clearly not a saving grace. At least not in comics. We have him in Titans comics. They do nothing with him. Its a punishing environment that affords him no development and justifies it because the others are less popular and marketable.


I agree. I think most of nightwing content atm has ran its course which is why DC has no idea what to do with him. Many writers use him as a way to get thier name out there but they never do anything that is truely remarkable or memorable. I can see why many writers dont know what to do with him in crossovers because at the end of the day, bat editorial has a death grip on him and they wont let him go. Writers just cant do whatever with Dick because bat editorial will always win out just like they did with the Titans Academy scandal. 

No doubt the current run is successful but Its not in anyway something that can be comparable to SpiderMan (whcih many people like to do). Fannon dick sells because most of People buying it are people who only like fannon dick or shipping wars. Any time Dick steps out that circle and does something (Higgins, Ric, Grayson), they all complain about it and then DC over does it with the fannon Dick to appease them. Its an annoying cycle that needs to end. And aside from Ric, Higgins Nightwing run and Grayson both bought in a ton of new Nightwing/Dick Grayson fans and Id probably say most of them left when DC once again cheated them. They even saw how popular Dick got with New Teen Titans and instead of continuing on with that Nightwing, he was retconned into oblivion and became exactly like how he is now.

So in another convo, regarding Priest, many writers feel the same way about Dick Grayson. He has become a cookie cutter, Boy Scout with no agency and no redeeming qualities. He is really just an insert for Batfam fandom. I dont blame him for feeling that way because its true. Dick should be great but he isnt. Makes one wonder why.

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## MakeNightwingGreatAgain

> Oh you're all good, I actually wasn't commenting on you specifically. I've been pretty negative about things in the past, so it was more me talking about me lmao. Dick does have a lot of potential, like in the most simple words, he's the first and original superhero raised in the world of heroes by other heroes. That DC doesn't know how to make the most of that really sucks. TTA is the closest we'll get and that's something at least. 
> 
> 
> This part I don't agree with.
> 
> For one, Dick has never mentored anyone that isn't part of the Batfamily aside from Rose and now future Teen Titans. Maybe Jon soon, eventually. He's not been allowed to interact with anyone meaningfully outside of the Batfamily for quite a while, so TTA is a new thing for him, getting to inspire characters again the way he did back when Tim's generation were the new kids. Hopefully Williamson eventually touches on Dick and Rose's relationship given she's literally working with Damian in the Robin book. 
> 
> The other thing is Dick as a mentor being a stepping stone is a weird idea because that's never been the case. Dick jobbing? Sure, Batman stories need him to suck whenever possible because he makes for a good measuring stick. But as a mentor? None of the Robins, including Damian, no one else in the Batfamily, and definitely not Rose, are using Dick as a stepping stone. That's what Batman would be, if anything, but marking a character as "great" as Batman as just a stepping stone is a pretty hollow idea. We'd be lucky if Dick ever got that far.


The stepping stone comment was about Batfam. Sorry if I wasn’t being clear. I mean that he is used as a stepping stone in Batfam because he has been downgraded and retconned to let the other characters shine. He is no longer the second greatest detective because that’s Tim now. He is no longer the best fighter because Damian and Cass are now ahead of him. He is no longer the most smart because now Tim and Babs have that role. That’s what I mean, Dick has become a shell of his former self in order to make the other batfam characters better.

And now he is doing the same in titans academy. Dick should be leading Titans and fighting street level crimes. He shouldn’t be teaching at some academy. He should be fighting his rogues gallery and getting great quality arcs. Not teaching at some academy. There are other Titan members who can do that. 

But I do agree with your response. DC doesn’t seem to want to let Dick be great and I don’t know why.

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## AmiMizuno

Dan and the fact that I feel like Bateditors don't want anyone greater than Bruce int eh family. Not only that but Many people Dan hired are still there. Overall Dc will never have any crossovers with the titans because he is a Batfam character and they don't want to do more work. They see him has a sidekick. I want Dick to have his own editor to stop that. He matter to everyone at Dc. And it should be shown. This is why I'm always on the fence with DickBabs due to him still being in Bateditors they can use it to lock him in Gotham and have him have even less of a role in Dc.


Especially after the new JL is coming so he doesn't matter in the long role. We have this unknown dude. Plus the fact that this Dan's idea to get rid of all the man heroes and the legacy characters aren't even given a reason why they rejected it. At least have someone who is part of the Batfam get to. I don't know about the new Flash. But overall they are suppose to be replacing all the heroes(main heroes). I wonder if they might get someone to replace Dick

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## AmiMizuno

Here is a Spider-Man and Nightwing fan crossover by Ghostpainter
Attachment 114861
Attachment 114862
Attachment 114863
CF219BF3-ED0E-49EE-8F9F-22301A0D9F26.jpg

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## Frontier

> Also his comments about how Dick should resent Bruce for making him a child solider I never agreed with. Since it ignores the fact that Dick didn't have a typical childhood where before Robin he was already putting himself in danger because he enjoyed it while in the circus. So Robin was something Dick wanted to do over Bruce pushing it on him to cause resentment.


I'm so over bitter Dick. 



> Here is a Spider-Man and Nightwing fan crossover by Ghostpainter
> Attachment 114861
> Attachment 114862
> Attachment 114863
> CF219BF3-ED0E-49EE-8F9F-22301A0D9F26.jpg


This reminds me of how Josh Keaton was Dick in those Arkham Origins DLC.

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## Iclifton

> The stepping stone comment was about Batfam. Sorry if I wasnt being clear. I mean that he is used as a stepping stone in Batfam because he has been downgraded and retconned to let the other characters shine. He is no longer the second greatest detective because thats Tim now. He is no longer the best fighter because Damian and Cass are now ahead of him. He is no longer the most smart because now Tim and Babs have that role. Thats what I mean, Dick has become a shell of his former self in order to make the other batfam characters better.
> 
> And now he is doing the same in titans academy. Dick should be leading Titans and fighting street level crimes. He shouldnt be teaching at some academy. He should be fighting his rogues gallery and getting great quality arcs. Not teaching at some academy. There are other Titan members who can do that. 
> 
> But I do agree with your response. DC doesnt seem to want to let Dick be great and I dont know why.


I would much rather Dick be in the position he is than any of the other Robins. A solo book that`s selling well and getting a big push. The guy is in a TON of books coming out. I also think its pretty clear in every Bat Book that other than Bruce, Dick is the best, most well rounded member of the family. That`s why when Bruce is away he is always in charge or the leader.

Any kind of growth for Nightwing is welcomed but I think its a little unrealistic when people want him to be his own franchise separate from the Batfam with his own editors. He is a Bat character. his legacy as the first Robin all grown up is why people read Nightwing. It is what hooked us all or at least got us to start paying attention to the character. It would be like saying, Wolverine is own character and should not be pulled into X-related events. Or Elektra needs to stand on her own and get her own editors away from Daredevil. Unrealistic expectations that will never come to pass.

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## phonogram12

> It would be like saying, Wolverine is own character and should not be pulled into X-related events. Or Elektra needs to stand on her own and get her own editors away from Daredevil. Unrealistic expectations that will never come to pass.


I would actually be okay with all of this.

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## MakeNightwingGreatAgain

> I would much rather Dick be in the position he is than any of the other Robins. A solo book that`s selling well and getting a big push. The guy is in a TON of books coming out. I also think its pretty clear in every Bat Book that other than Bruce, Dick is the best, most well rounded member of the family. That`s why when Bruce is away he is always in charge or the leader.
> 
> Any kind of growth for Nightwing is welcomed but I think its a little unrealistic when people want him to be his own franchise separate from the Batfam with his own editors. He is a Bat character. his legacy as the first Robin all grown up is why people read Nightwing. It is what hooked us all or at least got us to start paying attention to the character. It would be like saying, Wolverine is own character and should not be pulled into X-related events. Or Elektra needs to stand on her own and get her own editors away from Daredevil. Unrealistic expectations that will never come to pass.


But Nightwing was created to be on his own though? That was the whole point of his character creator and growth. Idk where people get the idea that Nightwing is supposed to be a batman side kick because he isnt. Marv created him because DC had no idea what to do with Dick as Robin so he made Nightwing in order to get Dick out the shadow and do stuff on his own. Thats why people are asking for more Nightwing centered content outside Batfam. Its the reason why he has his own solo in the first place. Its bat editorial who has retconned the mess out of Nightwing and turned him into what he is today, which is just another Robin just grown up. Thats not what Nightwing was created to do. NTT was DC answer to X-Men and Nightwing was supposed to be the answer to Spiderman and yeah well DC dropped the ball on both fronts.

This is why Nightwing fanbase is never consistent. Its why Nightwing always gets a peak of sales in the beginning and tapers off. Its why Grayson is easily one of the top Dick Grayson books. The General public doesnt want Nightwing sidekick to batman, They want Nightwing solo. Just because the batfam has infiltrated the fandom, doesnt mean that Dick has to revert back to a stage that he successfully was pulle d out from that made him the popular character in the first place. If Marv never created Nightwing, Dick Grayson would not be here today and thats a fact. Its because DC didnt know what to do with him outside of him being Batman's sidekick, remind you of anything recent?

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## Iclifton

> But Nightwing was created to be on his own though? That was the whole point of his character creator and growth. Idk where people get the idea that Nightwing is supposed to be a batman side kick because he isnt. Marv created him because DC had no idea what to do with Dick as Robin so he made Nightwing in order to get Dick out the shadow and do stuff on his own. Thats why people are asking for more Nightwing centered content outside Batfam. Its the reason why he has his own solo in the first place. Its bat editorial who has retconned the mess out of Nightwing and turned him into what he is today, which is just another Robin just grown up. Thats not what Nightwing was created to do. NTT was DC answer to X-Men and Nightwing was supposed to be the answer to Spiderman and yeah well DC dropped the ball on both fronts.
> 
> This is why Nightwing fanbase is never consistent. Its why Nightwing always gets a peak of sales in the beginning and tapers off. Its why Grayson is easily one of the top Dick Grayson books. The General public doesnt want Nightwing sidekick to batman, They want Nightwing solo. Just because the batfam has infiltrated the fandom, doesnt mean that Dick has to revert back to a stage that he successfully was pulle d out from that made him the popular character in the first place. If Marv never created Nightwing, Dick Grayson would not be here today and thats a fact. Its because DC didnt know what to do with him outside of him being Batman's sidekick, remind you of anything recent?


We can agree regarding the quality of Grayson but unfortunately the sales were not there. In fact it was one the characters lowest selling solo titles, so obviously the general public wanted him to return to the role of Nightwing.

Batman is DC`s most profitable character. Superman himself does not get the same reverence as Batman. Yes, the role was created so he can operate outside of Batman. Which he does. He makes his own decisions in his own city. However, like the character examples I gave above, he is still a part of the franchise. He will participate and always be considered Batfam. TBH it was not until Bat editorial got him back that Nightwing was even a solo character. He was not created to be DC`s answer to Spider-man. In the Titans run he was more of a analogue to Cyclops. DC has made a lot of bad decisions with the character (Ric, everything after Dixon up until Tomasi) but this run and current status is not one. It may not be one your partial to but he is getting a huge push at the moment. We owe almost all of his success as a solo character to his legacy in the Batfam.

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## Iclifton

> I would actually be okay with all of this.


Me as well. But my point is its just not feasible or realistic.

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## Godlike13

> Its why Nightwing always gets a peak of sales in the beginning and tapers off.


Thats just how the industry works. That is not a character thing, thats an industry thing. 




> We can agree regarding the quality of Grayson but unfortunately the sales were not there. In fact it was one the characters lowest selling solo titles, so obviously the general public wanted him to return to the role of Nightwing.


Sales had nothing to do with Grayson's destiny. Ric out lasted Grayson with worse sales.

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## MakeNightwingGreatAgain

> We can agree regarding the quality of Grayson but unfortunately the sales were not there. In fact it was one the characters lowest selling solo titles, so obviously the general public wanted him to return to the role of Nightwing.
> 
> Batman is DC`s most profitable character. Superman himself does not get the same reverence as Batman. Yes, the role was created so he can operate outside of Batman. Which he does. He makes his own decisions in his own city. However, like the character examples I gave above, he is still a part of the franchise. He will participate and always be considered Batfam. TBH it was not until Bat editorial got him back that Nightwing was even a solo character. He was not created to be DC`s answer to Spider-man. In the Titans run he was more of a analogue to Cyclops. DC has made a lot of bad decisions with the character (Ric, everything after Dixon up until Tomasi) but this run and current status is not one. It may not be one your partial to but he is getting a huge push at the moment. We owe almost all of his success as a solo character to his legacy in the Batfam.


Im gonna have to disagree with you. We ow his legacy and character success to Marv. Nightwing used to be super popular and a household name back when he was created. NTT was the series and Nightwing was its main character. NTT turned things around for DC Comics all by itself. It wasnt until bat editorial took over that Nightwing began to downgrade in character and erase everything that made him popular to begin with. Nightwing has never been compared to Cyclops. Nightwing was always intended to be the Spider-man of the DC world and never got the chance to reach those heights because Bateditorial. Its just the truth. 

Also, Superman is one of the highest selling characters in existence. Batman gets pushed because he has more content, but Superman sells quite a lot and lots of people known him by name. ITs not just about Batman and i really wish people would stop it with the comparisons. DC really needs some new content because eventually, Batman isnt gonna save it from crumbling. DC hasnt been a top seller in ages and lots of writers are leaving for their own ventures. The comic industry as a whole needs to change. Nightwing's success is outside batfam. Its why Dick Grayson is still synonymous with Robin in Teen Titan stuff. Lots of people dont even know that Dick Grayson = Robin = Nightwing. Its because DC never promotes him as Nightwing outside comics and select content. To Batediotiral, Dick will always be a robin and thats why he is treated that way.

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## phonogram12

> But Nightwing was created to be on his own though? That was the whole point of his character creator and growth. Idk where people get the idea that Nightwing is supposed to be a batman side kick because he isnt. Marv created him because DC had no idea what to do with Dick as Robin so he made Nightwing in order to get Dick out the shadow and do stuff on his own. Thats why people are asking for more Nightwing centered content outside Batfam. Its the reason why he has his own solo in the first place. Its bat editorial who has retconned the mess out of Nightwing and turned him into what he is today, which is just another Robin just grown up. Thats not what Nightwing was created to do. NTT was DC answer to X-Men and Nightwing was supposed to be the answer to Spiderman and yeah well DC dropped the ball on both fronts.
> 
> This is why Nightwing fanbase is never consistent. Its why Nightwing always gets a peak of sales in the beginning and tapers off. Its why Grayson is easily one of the top Dick Grayson books. The General public doesnt want Nightwing sidekick to batman, They want Nightwing solo. Just because the batfam has infiltrated the fandom, doesnt mean that Dick has to revert back to a stage that he successfully was pulle d out from that made him the popular character in the first place. If Marv never created Nightwing, Dick Grayson would not be here today and thats a fact. Its because DC didnt know what to do with him outside of him being Batman's sidekick, remind you of anything recent?


All of this. Absolutely all of this.

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## Godlike13

Nightwing was created to be with the Titans. His creation was the result of the Batbooks wanting Robin back and NTT wanting to keep him. There were no solo designs with him then.

----------


## Rac7d*

> Nightwing was created to be with the Titans. His creation was the result of the Batbooks wanting Robin back and NTT wanting to keep him. There were no solo designs with him then.


But dick Grayson was created for Batman, and Nightwing truly blossomed solo away from the titans.

----------


## RobinGA

I'd like to pick up a thread of a few posts back.  

It is the widely known dump on Batman for allowing a young boy to go out and fight crime.  
You can give Bruce some crap for that if you want, but at a certain level you have to acknowledge 
that Dick Grayson chose that life.  He embraced it, without a second's thought, in fact wanted it more than anything.  

That was how Dick Grayson was written back in the Golden Age.  Batman allowed Robin to help take 
Zucco down, but after that he made it abundantly clear there would be no Robin.  Dick Grayson would spend 
his time going to school, living a fairly privileged life as his "ward."  Batman went off to fight crime solo.  But 
that one night, Dick Grayson refused to agree, he snuck out in his Robin's costume.  Good thing too, for Batman 
needed his help, with Robin rushing in to save the day.  After that, there was never any doubt about their 
partnership.  Dick Grayson chose the life.  He signed up for it on day one, for the simple reason that in a lot of ways
his idyllic childhood died when his parents were slaughtered.  Do we want to say that was just the way it was in 1940 
for many kids still dealing with the Great Depression?  OK.  But I don't think that modern Dick Grayson feels any 
differently.  

But the only real place we see the alternative take on Dick Grayson is the awful _Titans_ TV series where Bruce 
Wayne is presented as a maniac, with Dick Grayson never truly wanting to be like Batman.  It may be the most anti-Batman 
series ever set in Gotham City.  I don't think it reads Dick Grayson very well.  

I think the modern Nightwing character can best be seen as a natural evolution in which Grayson has great pride about being 
Robin.  If you had been the original Robin, wouldn't you be proud of that heritage?  I sure would be.  But over time as an 
adult, just like he chose to be Robin, he in time also chose to become Nightwing.  Dick Grayson in one format or another has 
been fighting crime since 1940.  You know like all those other DC characters in the universe who have fancy anniversaries.  

The difference is that because part of that period fighting period took place while underage it rubs some people the wrong way.  
A child shouldn't do those kinds of things.  I'll agree with you up to a point.  But then Dick Grayson is not a normal man.  Neither 
is Bruce Wayne, Clark Kent, nor any of the other kind of heroes.  Most people don't run to where bullets are being fired, or to invade
a building on fire.  But Dick Grayson does.

----------


## Iclifton

> Im gonna have to disagree with you. We ow his legacy and character success to Marv. Nightwing used to be super popular and a household name back when he was created. NTT was the series and Nightwing was its main character. NTT turned things around for DC Comics all by itself. It wasnt until bat editorial took over that Nightwing began to downgrade in character and erase everything that made him popular to begin with. Nightwing has never been compared to Cyclops. Nightwing was always intended to be the Spider-man of the DC world and never got the chance to reach those heights because Bateditorial. Its just the truth. 
> 
> Also, Superman is one of the highest selling characters in existence. Batman gets pushed because he has more content, but Superman sells quite a lot and lots of people known him by name. ITs not just about Batman and i really wish people would stop it with the comparisons. DC really needs some new content because eventually, Batman isnt gonna save it from crumbling. DC hasnt been a top seller in ages and lots of writers are leaving for their own ventures. The comic industry as a whole needs to change. Nightwing's success is outside batfam. Its why Dick Grayson is still synonymous with Robin in Teen Titan stuff. Lots of people dont even know that Dick Grayson = Robin = Nightwing. Its because DC never promotes him as Nightwing outside comics and select content. To Batediotiral, Dick will always be a robin and thats why he is treated that way.


He was not meant to be a solo character when Marv made that change though. He was just meant to remain the leader of the Titans. It is when the Bat Editorial took over that he became a solo character. And yes, he was an analogue for Cyclops during that period. Right down to dating the read head. I am not understanding where you are getting the Spider-man comparison. You may have seen him this way but it was certainly not the general consensus at the time. Especially during his time on the Titans.

Yes, Superman is one of the highest selling characters of all time. Yet with this current direction Nightwings book is outselling Superman and Action Comics. Do you know why this is possible? Because of his history as a bat character. Your also missing the point of my Superman comparison. Superman, the most iconic super hero of all time plays second fiddle to Batman. Yet many fans want to get rid of the very connection that make Grayson so valuable. Just because you exist as part of a franchise does not mean your a sidekick or not the main character of your book. It just means your part of a larger franchise. 

Again, if the general public wanted to read a Nightwing book without the Batman connection, why didn`t Grayson sell well? It was an amazing book. But quality did not translate to sales. If DC gave him a show or movie, do you know what the hook would be to the general public? That he is a bat character. Like it or not. This is the reality.

----------


## Iclifton

> I'd like to pick up a thread of a few posts back.  
> 
> It is the widely known dump on Batman for allowing a young boy to go out and fight crime.  
> You can give Bruce some crap for that if you want, but at a certain level you have to acknowledge 
> that Dick Grayson chose that life.  He embraced it, without a second's thought, in fact wanted it more than anything.  
> 
> That was how Dick Grayson was written back in the Golden Age.  Batman allowed Robin to help take 
> Zucco down, but after that he made it abundantly clear there would be no Robin.  Dick Grayson would spend 
> his time going to school, living a fairly privileged life as his "ward."  Batman went off to fight crime solo.  But 
> ...


I 100% agree. That's honestly what I love so much about the character. Give Jason the child soldier angle. I do not mind exploring Dicks trauma from the position of "it not owning him". But his time as Robin should not be a trauma. If he see`s his parents death as the worst thing to ever happen to him, than being Robin was the best.

----------


## MakeNightwingGreatAgain

Ok so it seems I need to clarify. Nightwing was created to be on his own AWAY from Batman. Whether it's his own solo or leading the Titans, he was meant to be his own hero. It was the whole point of his arc of that time. That is what I meant. Many people have compared Nightwing to Spider-man for years and that was the main comparison. And red heads were the standard because of the printing of that era. It really has nothing to do with characters needing to be redheads. That is why I bought it up. The public does read Nightwing, but they don't make up much of the fandom, which is why Batfam fans leave and complain about arcs like Higgins and Grayson. Nightwing isn't a bat character, he is a Titans character. Robin is a bat character. You can't have both. You either want to erase Dick's history with Titans in favor of Batman. OR you erase Dick's time with batman in favor of the Titans. Either way, the fans, who are not just plain fans of Nightwing clearly, are going to complain. Which is why Nightwing stays getting zero development and always being stuck in shipping wars and batfam content.

Like it or not, both the start of N52 Higgins and also Grayson brought in a hell of a lot of attention to Nightwing and lots of new fans. Alot of those fans left when Batedtorial started pushing more batfam stuff. That's a fact. For the first time in years, Grayson made Dick Grayson/Nightwing in the spotlight outside of comic circles. But lots of people complained about it although it was gaining traction in the general public. And now we are back to square one with how he was before Marv got his hands on him. Its clear as day that the stories that make Dick popular are not the stories that Batfam fans want to read and y'all complain about it every time Dick branches out and does something on his own.

This back and forth will never stop until an editor either takes him away and makes him his own IP with his own set of mythos and the like. That's the truth. Quality translates to sales when you actively promote and spend time building up your character. you don't quit after 10 issues. That's a sign of bad planning. Everyone knows this. Grayson could have re-invented Nightwing, but no, you guys (batfam fans) didn't give it a chance. Just like you didn't give Higgins a chance before shoving Batfam crossovers down his throat. Nightwing needs a chance to get good and that may take one writer on a ton of issues rather than the direction it is now. 

people were excited about the TITANS tv show because it had you know the TITANS. It started to go down in ratings when Batfam took over. That's a fact clear as day. So please don't act like Batfam is the only thing that makes Dick Grayson popular. Because its not.

and with this post, I will end my argument. Clearly there are two opinions and the only person with enough power to end it is DC.

I also wanna say im sorry if this post comes off mean but its really annoying to see how lots of batfam fans reduce dick down to just being a batfamily character when he clearly isnt.

----------


## Iclifton

> Ok so it seems I need to clarify. Nightwing was created to be on his own AWAY from Batman. Whether it's his own solo or leading the Titans, he was meant to be his own hero. It was the whole point of his arc of that time. That is what I meant. Many people have compared Nightwing to Spider-man for years and that was the main comparison. And red heads were the standard because of the printing of that era. It really has nothing to do with characters needing to be redheads. That is why I bought it up. The public does read Nightwing, but they don't make up much of the fandom, which is why Batfam fans leave and complain about arcs like Higgins and Grayson. Nightwing isn't a bat character, he is a Titans character. Robin is a bat character. You can't have both. You either want to erase Dick's history with Titans in favor of Batman. OR you erase Dick's time with batman in favor of the Titans. Either way, the fans, who are not just plain fans of Nightwing clearly, are going to complain. Which is why Nightwing stays getting zero development and always being stuck in shipping wars and batfam content.
> 
> Like it or not, both the start of N52 Higgins and also Grayson brought in a hell of a lot of attention to Nightwing and lots of new fans. Alot of those fans left when Batedtorial started pushing more batfam stuff. That's a fact. For the first time in years, Grayson made Dick Grayson/Nightwing in the spotlight outside of comic circles. But lots of people complained about it although it was gaining traction in the general public. . And now we are back to square one with how he was before Marv got his hands on him. Its clear as day that the stories that make Dick popular are not the stories that Batfam fans want to read and y'all complain about it every time Dick branches out and does something on his own.
> 
> This back and forth will never stop until an editor either takes him away and makes him his own IP with his own set of mythos and the like. That's the truth. Quality translates to sales when you actively promote and spend time building up your character. you don't quit after 10 issues. That's a sign of bad planning. Everyone knows this. Grayson could have re-invented Nightwing, but no, you guys (batfam fans) didn't give it a chance. Just like you didn't give Higgins a chance before shoving Batfam crossovers down his throat. Nightwing needs a chance to get good and that may take one writer on a ton of issues rather than the direction it is now. 
> 
> people were excited about the TITANS tv show because it had you know the TITANS. It started to go down in ratings when Batfam took over. That's a fact clear as day. So please don't act like Batfam is the only thing that makes Dick Grayson popular. Because its not.
> 
> and with this post, I will end my argument. Clearly there are two opinions and the only person with enough power to end it is DC.


Well what your saying has no fact to back it up. Grayson did not bring new fans. That status lost fans. There were less readers. This is a fact.  Not an opinion. Where did this status quo gain traction with outside media? I loved Grayson. One of my favorite stories for the character. But it was not something that was ever going to stick around. The Nightwing identity was not created to operate as his own hero. It was created so he could remain the leader of Titans as Bat editorial wanted Robin back. Fact. Nightwing was not a solo hero until he returned to the Batfam. Fact.

Titans reviews have improved since including more Batfamily. The response to the first season and very first trailer were negative. Dick Grayson is both a Titans character and Bat character. You can have both. They are both a part of his history and both count. Such as how the current run includes both or how Batman is both a Leaguer and Gotham character. Comics wise his current book is successful and DC is giving a push fans of other characters dream of. To go to the next level he needs additional media exposure. Which may happen one day. But if it does, I guarantee it will use his connection to the Batfam as the opening hook.

I understand why some people may not be a huge fan of the current run or want to see the book approached differently. But to think Nightwing is or should get his own editorial team and be disconnected from the Batfam, the very connection that made him, its delusional. He would not have even been the leader of the Teen Titans without that connection. The very base of his character is the original Boy Wonder.

Being a part of a franchise is not negative. It is a hook. I am not boiling him down to anything. He is a multi-faceted character. My favorite comic character. But like it or not he is a PART of the Bat family.

----------


## Drako

> Well what your saying has no fact to back it up. Grayson did not bring new fans. That status lost fans. There were less readers. This is a fact.  Not an opinion. Where did this status quo gain traction with outside media? I loved Grayson. One of my favorite stories for the character. But it not something that was ever going to stick around The Nightwing identity was not created to operate as his own hero. It was created so he could remain the leader of Titans as Bat editorial wanted Robin back. Fact. Nightwing was not a solo hero until he returned to the Batfam. Fact.


Grayson was great, but yes, it didn't not bring new readers at all. And it most certainly didn't not have any presence in the outside midia.
Current Nightwing run is selling around 50k since Tom Taylor came over (#78 to #85). Grayson by issue 4 was already bellow 50k, by issue 6 was selling 38k. 

All the numbers are in the comichron website, it's pretty easy to find.

----------


## Iclifton

> Grayson was great, but yes, it didn't not bring new readers at all. And it most certainly didn't not have any presence in the outside midia.
> Current Nightwing run is selling around 50k since Tom Taylor came over (#78 to #85). Grayson by issue 4 was already bellow 50k, by issue 6 was selling 38k. 
> 
> All the numbers are in the comichron website, it's pretty easy to find.


Yeah, I am typing really quick on a phone but this is exactly the point I was trying to make. While Grayson was great, it was certainly not setting the market on fire.

----------


## Drako

Next year he is going to be one of the leads of a triple A video-game, and that's solely because he is part of the Bat Brand. Nowadays video-games and movies are the biggest popularity boost you can ask for, that's why Marvel and DC keep making their characters appear in Fortnite. Hopefully Gotham Knights is a good game and that will be the first exposure of him to a new audience.

----------


## Rac7d*

> Ok so it seems I need to clarify. Nightwing was created to be on his own AWAY from Batman. Whether it's his own solo or leading the Titans, he was meant to be his own hero. It was the whole point of his arc of that time. That is what I meant. Many people have compared Nightwing to Spider-man for years and that was the main comparison. And red heads were the standard because of the printing of that era. It really has nothing to do with characters needing to be redheads. That is why I bought it up. The public does read Nightwing, but they don't make up much of the fandom, which is why Batfam fans leave and complain about arcs like Higgins and Grayson. Nightwing isn't a bat character, he is a Titans character. Robin is a bat character. You can't have both. You either want to erase Dick's history with Titans in favor of Batman. OR you erase Dick's time with batman in favor of the Titans. Either way, the fans, who are not just plain fans of Nightwing clearly, are going to complain. Which is why Nightwing stays getting zero development and always being stuck in shipping wars and batfam content.
> 
> Like it or not, both the start of N52 Higgins and also Grayson brought in a hell of a lot of attention to Nightwing and lots of new fans. Alot of those fans left when Batedtorial started pushing more batfam stuff. That's a fact. For the first time in years, Grayson made Dick Grayson/Nightwing in the spotlight outside of comic circles. But lots of people complained about it although it was gaining traction in the general public. And now we are back to square one with how he was before Marv got his hands on him. Its clear as day that the stories that make Dick popular are not the stories that Batfam fans want to read and y'all complain about it every time Dick branches out and does something on his own.
> 
> This back and forth will never stop until an editor either takes him away and makes him his own IP with his own set of mythos and the like. That's the truth. Quality translates to sales when you actively promote and spend time building up your character. you don't quit after 10 issues. That's a sign of bad planning. Everyone knows this. Grayson could have re-invented Nightwing, but no, you guys (batfam fans) didn't give it a chance. Just like you didn't give Higgins a chance before shoving Batfam crossovers down his throat. Nightwing needs a chance to get good and that may take one writer on a ton of issues rather than the direction it is now. 
> 
> people were excited about the TITANS tv show because it had you know the TITANS. It started to go down in ratings when Batfam took over. That's a fact clear as day. So please don't act like Batfam is the only thing that makes Dick Grayson popular. Because its not.
> 
> and with this post, I will end my argument. Clearly there are two opinions and the only person with enough power to end it is DC.
> ...


Your post count, username tell me your looking for place to vent your frustration.

I’m not seeing any facts or reasons here just that your upset. Nightwing =Dick Grayson and he will always be dick Grayson no matter what title he is in.    The only time we have ever had a significant drop in sales was for the ric saga, Nightwing/Dick fans have stood by him through the new52  rebirth and returned in full force for Taylors run. The numbers can prove it.

While I agree Titans is a mess it’s due to a lot more then the bat family 
But it can’t be so bad since it was renewed

----------


## Rac7d*

> Next year he is going to be one of the leads of a triple A video-game, and that's solely because he is part of the Bat Brand. Nowadays video-games and movies are the biggest popularity boost you can ask for, that's why Marvel and DC keep making their characters appear in Fortnite. Hopefully Gotham Knights is a good game and that will be the first exposure of him to a new audience.


This is true Harley wave was ignited by Arkham games

----------


## Godlike13

> Well what your saying has no fact to back it up. Grayson did not bring new fans. That status lost fans. There were less readers. This is a fact.  Not an opinion. Where did this status quo gain traction with outside media? I loved Grayson. One of my favorite stories for the character. But it was not something that was ever going to stick around.


Eeh its not quite that simple. Grayson did increase his readership at that time. Grayson launched better then were the previous Nightwing ended at. Which new launches tend to do by nature. But it accomplish that. Whats more often we'll see the results from successful low key runs with what comes next. Which again is complicated because it came with a whole line initiative. But idea is that there was all this positive reaction the the last run, so now readers don't want to miss what comes next.




> Your post count, username tell me your looking for place to vent your frustration.


Which this place is for.

----------


## Iclifton

> Eeh its not quite that simple. Grayson did increase his readership at that time. Grayson launched better then were the previous Nightwing ended at. Which new launches tend to do by nature. But it accomplish that. Whats more often we'll see the results from successful low key runs with what comes next. Which again is complicated because it came with a whole line initiative. But idea is that there was all this positive reaction the the last run, so now readers don't want to miss what comes next. 
> 
> 
> 
> Which this place is for.


Yes it is a place to vent. But to say Grayson was more successful or that this run is alienating readers while Grayson created new fans when the numbers do not support that is something else. 

Grayson achieved a boost for merely a few issues, like every new #1 does. It dropped quicker than any other Grayson solo volume. There really is no debate, in that the current run/ status has been more successful than Grayson numbers wise. Especially considering it didn’t even have to renumber to achieve it.

I think it’s pretty low odds we get a comic status even close to Grayson for a good long while, if ever.

----------


## Godlike13

> Yes it is a place to vent. But to say Grayson was more successful or that this run is alienating readers while Grayson created new fans when the numbers do not support that is something else. 
> 
> Grayson achieved a boost for merely a few issues, like every new #1 does. It dropped quicker than any other Grayson solo volume. There really is no debate, in that the current run/ status has been more successful than Grayson numbers wise. Especially considering it didn’t even have to renumber to achieve it.
> 
> I think it’s pretty low odds we get a comic status even close to Grayson for a good long while, if ever.


Has it though. This run is still mid 30s. It seems, hard to track now. It looks like it pulled the series out of the Ric hole thought, which don’t get me wrong that alone is a success, that’s not an easy thing to do with no relaunch, but its still pretty much settling around the same level. 

Here’s the thing with a run though. They don’t try to copy it onto an initiative if it didn’t do well, and they don’t then bump half the team on to Batman. Grayson wasn’t ended cause of it’s sales or reception. Like I said Ric did worse yet lasted longer. They are not that motivated by sales or reception when it comes this character. Grayson ended for the same reason Ric lasted so long. It fit for what they were doing else where. It was never intended to last forever though.

----------


## Iclifton

> Has it though. This run is still mid 30s. It seems, hard to track now. It looks like it pulled the series out of the Ric hole thought, which don’t get me wrong that alone is a success, that’s not an easy thing to do with no relaunch, but its still pretty much settling around the same level. 
> 
> Here’s the thing with a run though. They don’t try to copy it onto an initiative if it didn’t do well, and they don’t then bump half the team on to Batman. Grayson wasn’t ended cause of it’s sales or reception. Like I said Ric did worse yet lasted longer. They are not that motivated by sales or reception when it comes this character. Grayson ended for the same reason Ric lasted so long. It fit for what they were doing else where. It was never intended to last forever though.


But it isn`t selling in the mid 30`s. It is selling in the 50k area. And has settled there. As you said it is a bit harder to track now, but the latest approximation of Nightwing issue # 83 is 51,000 on Comichron. This run is 8 issues in and has not dipped. At least the first four issues all went to second print. In fact it is selling better than every book in the DC line other than Batman and Joker. By issue #20 Grayson was selling at 23k. The lowest selling any Dick Grayson lead solo series has been other than Ric (19K, so honestly not too far behind). A 30K stabilized increase without a relaunch is unheard of. So yes, it is selling much better than Grayson.

They are motivated by sales. I believe Didio had something to do with the Ric initiative. But that's neither here no there. Once DC finds something successful they try to capitalize on it. Yes, they may try something new at some point to reinvigorate the series if its sales look stale. But what they will not do is go back to a status that was proven to not sell well. Also, yes, his return to the role of Nightwing was money motivated. Not only did Nightwing Rebirth and Taylors run (standard Nightwing) sell better than Grayson, but it is also his most marketable role other than Robin.

----------


## Rakiduam

> Yes it is a place to vent. But to say Grayson was more successful or that this run is alienating readers while Grayson created new fans when the numbers do not support that is something else. 
> 
> Grayson achieved a boost for merely a few issues, like every new #1 does. It dropped quicker than any other Grayson solo volume. There really is no debate, in that the current run/ status has been more successful than Grayson numbers wise. Especially considering it didn’t even have to renumber to achieve it.
> 
> I think it’s pretty low odds we get a comic status even close to Grayson for a good long while, if ever.


Grayson sold to Dick's fans, this run is selling to batfamily fans.

----------


## AmiMizuno

Do you guys think the reason we haven't gotten a Nightwing movie is because the Public doesn't know him

----------


## Iclifton

> Grayson sold to Dick's fans, this run is selling to batfamily fans.


Na, a lot of Dick fans prefer him as Nightwing which is why Grayson sales were not as high as any new Nightwing volume. If that were the case every Bat family member would sell this high. This is not the case.

Do I love Grayson? Yes. But to think it is better for the character or even that it is was equally successful as this run has been for the character is obtuse when the numbers are right there. It is a refusal of pure fact. I am a Dick Grayson fan first and foremost. At the end of the day, the bigger the audience, the better for the character. End of story.

----------


## Iclifton

> Do you guys think the reason we haven't gotten a Nightwing movie is because the Public doesn't know him


I think he is starting to grow in the public eye and we are closer to a movie or cartoon than we have been in years. But the problem is it`s hard to translate the the role of Robin on-screen and when the main characters hook is his journey from the Boy Wonder to his own man, that is kind of a detriment.

----------


## AmiMizuno

> I think he is starting to grow in the public eye and we are closer to a movie or cartoon than we have been in years. But the problem is it`s hard to translate the the role of Robin on-screen and when the main characters hook is his journey from the Boy Wonder to his own man, that is kind of a detriment.


Do you think we will ever get that Nightwing animated cartoon

----------


## Godlike13

> But it isn`t selling in the mid 30`s. It is selling in the 50k area. And has settled there. As you said it is a bit harder to track now, but the latest approximation of Nightwing issue # 83 is 51,000 on Comichron. This run is 8 issues in and has not dipped. At least the first four issues all went to second print. In fact it is selling better than every book in the DC line other than Batman and Joker. By issue #20 Grayson was selling at 23k. The lowest selling any Dick Grayson lead solo series has been other than Ric (19K, so honestly not too far behind). A 30K stabilized increase without a relaunch is unheard of. So yes, it is selling much better than Grayson.
> 
> They are motivated by sales. I believe Didio had something to do with the Ric initiative. But that's neither here no there. Once DC finds something successful they try to capitalize on it. Yes, they may try something new at some point to reinvigorate the series if its sales look stale. But what they will not do is go back to a status that was proven to not sell well. Also, yes, his return to the role of Nightwing was money motivated. Not only did Nightwing Rebirth and Taylors run (standard Nightwing) sell better than Grayson, but it is also his most marketable role other than Robin.


Comichron numbers are rough estimates to say the least now that DC isn’t with Diamonds, showing no deflation. Which is no way. While other charts have its ranked around books like X-Force. Which is in the mid 30s. From under 20k to over 50k with no deflation is beyond unusual. 

DC tried to capitalize on Grayson by using it as inspiration for a new sales initiative (DCYou), and then by taking its creators before they even finished for bigger projects. In line with DC’s management view on the character. Which was to move his success on to others they prioritize higher. He was always going to return to Nightwing, but Grayson’s end was more motivated by their next initiative (Rebirth) and them wanting its creators for other projects. Ric proves sales aren’t the biggest motivating factor with this character. It’s sold lower, yet lasted longer. They cared more about making sure their in house creators had something to work on over the characters sales. Nightwing is obviously his most marketable role other then Robin. But Grayson was never the less a successful relaunch that increased the characters current readership at that time and reposition the character for Nightwing’s inevitable return. Following up on Grayson’s reception. Side by side sales comparisons to measure if a run was successful is misleading as they rarely exists within to same conditions. Grayson didn’t have line wide relaunched to debut it, or even many crossover to stem deflation. But during a time where DC as a whole was doing bad, Grayson was one of the bright spots that mislead them even.

----------


## Iclifton

> Comichron numbers are rough estimates to say the least now that DC isn’t with Diamonds, showing no deflation. Which is no way. While other charts have its ranked around books like X-Force. Which is in the mid 30s. From under 20k to over 50k with no deflation is beyond unusual. 
> 
> DC tried to capitalize on Grayson by using it as inspiration for a new sales initiative (DCYou), and then by taking its creators before they even finished for bigger projects. In line with DC’s management view on the character. Which was to move his success on to others they prioritize higher. He was always going to return to Nightwing, but Grayson’s end was more motivated by their next initiative (Rebirth) and them wanting its creators for other projects. Ric proves sales aren’t the biggest motivating factor with this character. It’s sold lower, yet lasted longer. They cared more about making sure their in house creators had something to work on over the characters sales. Nightwing is obviously his most marketable role other then Robin. But Grayson was never the less a successful relaunch that increased the characters current readership at that time and reposition the character for Nightwing’s inevitable return. Following up on Grayson’s reception. Side by side sales comparisons to measure if a run was successful is misleading as they rarely exists within to same conditions. Grayson didn’t have line wide relaunched to debut it, or even many crossover to stem deflation. But during a time where DC as a whole was doing bad, Grayson was one of the bright spots that mislead them even.


Comichron is a rough estimate, but the most reliable approximation by far. Also, supporting the 50K numbers is the fact the series has went to second printing, has not seen a drop and is receiving a huge push from DC. Grayson`s numbers dropped much earlier than when King and Seeley left. Another factor that goes to support this runs success is the fact that even without hard numbers we can see he is outselling Superman, Wonder Woman, Green Lantern, Flash the Justice League. This was definitely not the case prior to Taylor which clearly indicates a sustained sales increase. I would also add the DCYOU initiative was more inspired by Burnside Batgirl then that of Grayson. BTW X-Force issue # 20 sold 53K. What was the last month it was estimated Nightwing sold around X-Force numbers? What site reported this? The last I show was June, which X-Force sold 53 K due to a crossover.

Even with Ric around, the numbers did not drop too far from where they were, mid 30k to 20K hence why it was able to last so long. Also contributing to this fact was Didio. At the end of the day he returned to the current status quo because it was profitable. It is common knowledge that up until this point editorial interference with Nightwing ran rampant. Multiple writers have stated so. 

Its no coincidence that when DC is trying to push the character this is the status quo they choose. It is the most successful. Do you really think Grayson would have been able to survive as a series for 83 issues? Much of those being terrible? No chance. But the Nightwing book did. Because it as a concept is more successful than Grayson. If  people seriously cannot accept that this run NUMBERS wise is more successful than Grayson then its obvious that your not really thinking objectively and utilizing your internal biases regarding the character for the sake of proving a point.

I LOVE Grayson. I prefer it to Taylors run. But facts do not support it being as successful sales wise. I understand as a concept it had a shelf life. While the concept of Nightwing is the more profitable and marketable status quo. Hence why we keep returning to it.

----------


## Iclifton

> Do you think we will ever get that Nightwing animated cartoon


I do. And I honestly think we could see one in the next couple years as well as a movie. Warner Bros seems to want to build a Bat-Family franchise.

----------


## Rakiduam

> Na, a lot of Dick fans prefer him as Nightwing which is why Grayson sales were not as high as any new Nightwing volume. If that were the case every Bat family member would sell this high. This is not the case.


Not all the books about bat families members turn into a bat family books, this Nightwing's run it's a batfamily book, that's why Barbra fans are getting it, Tim's fans are getting it and Batgirl fans are getting it.

It's familiar, unambitious and standard, something for everyone to like, because they have already liked some version before. The lowest common denominator possible.




> Do you guys think the reason we haven't gotten a Nightwing movie is because the Public doesn't know him


It's because there's no material, why make a Batman-little movie, when you can make a Batman movie?

----------


## Iclifton

> Not all the books about bat families members turn into a bat family books, this Nightwing's run it's a batfamily book, that's why Barbra fans are getting it, Tim's fans are getting it and Batgirl fans are getting it.
> 
> It's familiar, unambitious and standard, something for everyone to like, because they have already liked some version before. The lowest common denominator possible.


Well yes, Tim does not have a book. The Batgirls book will have multiple characters and still will not sell as well as Nightwing is. Including Bat-Family books does not inherently make it strictly a Batfam book. The book remains focused on Dick and his story. It may include Bat characters and he may participate in a crossover once per year but he is still the focus. These are his family members and it makes sense they would associate. Barbara is a side character and until this crossover was not even active in the field. The rest cameo. Just like the Titans or Superman. Did Tim helping in that one issue really detract from the story for you?

Regardless, I want the character to be successful. This run is doing that. The more eyes the better.

Also wrong, theres a ton of material. Hence why we are fans. The orginal Robin all grown up is the hook of the character. There is no escaping that. Sounds like you`ll always just consider the character Bat-Lite with that mentality.

----------


## Godlike13

> Comichron is a rough estimate, but the most reliable approximation by far. Also, supporting the 50K numbers is the fact the series has went to second printing, has not seen a drop and is receiving a huge push from DC. Grayson`s numbers dropped much earlier than when King and Seeley leaving. Another factor that goes to support this runs success is the fact that even without hard numbers we can see he is outselling Superman, Wonder Woman, Green Lantern, Flash the Justice League. This was definitely not the case prior to Taylor which clearly indicates a sustained sales increase. I would also add the DCYOU initiative was more inspired by Burnside Batgirl then that of Grayson.
> 
> Even with Ric around, the numbers did not drop too far from where they were, mid 30k to 20K hence why it was able to last so long. Also contributing to this fact was Didio. At the end of the day he returned to the current status quo because it was profitable. It is common knowledge that up until this point editorial interference with Nightwing ran rampant. Multiple writers have stated so. 
> 
> Its no coincidence that when DC is trying to push the character this is the status quo they choose. It is the most successful. Do you really think Grayson would have been able to survive as a series for 83 issues? Much of those being terrible? No chance. But the Nightwing book did. Because it as a concept is more successful than Grayson. If  people seriously cannot accept that this run NUMBERS wise is more successful than Grayson then its obvious that your not really thinking objectively and utilizing your internal biases regarding the character for the sake of proving a point.
> 
> I LOVE Grayson. I prefer it to Taylors run. But facts do not support it being as successful sales wise. I understand as a concept it had a shelf life. While the concept of Nightwing is the more profitable and marketable status quo. Hence why we keep returning to it.


Actually the multiple printing doesn't support the 50K numbers, as what the multiple printings mean is that DC's wasn't producing enough Nightwing as its prior orders were low. Comichron approximations are no longer that reliable as they no longer have access to DC sales data. Its not that there isn't deflation, its that Comichron can't track it. The book isn't seeing a push so big that orders more then doubled with no deflation. As lovely as that would be its too unrealistic. That doesn't mean this run isn't a success, the book seen an increase, i don't doubt that, but over 50k with no deflation something else. And Grayson alongside Burnside was toted as part of DCYou's inspiration. 

The numbers were at they're floor before Ric, and just fell further with Ric. It struggled to keep rank in the top 100. If those numbers were a problem for Grayson there's no way those numbers aren't then a problem for the more marketable series. It lasted so long cause the were gearing up for 5G and Nightwing was low priory. It was just more convenient to let Dick be busy work for creators they like but work but no longer draw. 

Ive said it multiple times, this status que is a direct response to Ric. They went too far one way, and so now they are going the other. And that does make sense, and it is working out, but that doesn't mean Grayson didn't make sense at its time and that it didn't also work out. There's a reason why half the team was put on Batman and Seeley was kept for the new biweekly series. I don't know if Grayson could have lasted 83 issues, it existed under different conditions, but it was iffy if Nightwing was going to be able to make is 83 issue at times. This run has been a success too. But its not that cut and dry, as numbers we see are no longer reliable and the conditions are much different.

----------


## Rakiduam

> Regardless, I want the character to be successful. This run is doing that. The more eyes the better


.

I'm sure that's the thought behind Disney live-actions movies. Taylor's Nightwing is almost as original as those, and the story just as memorable.

----------


## Iclifton

> .
> 
> I'm sure that's the thought behind Disney live-actions movies. Taylor's Nightwing is almost as original as those, and the story just as memorable.


Lol gotta start somewhere. Taking inspiration from the most successful movie studio that made a super hero`s  more mainstream then ever is a pretty great place to start.

Character gets an A-list team, a massive push, and stars in multiple books after coming out of two of the most creatively bankrupt years of his existence and fans are still just as negative as ever. No other character is comics gets this much hate for simply just being a part of the franchise that spawned him. Super toxic fan base, real bummer.

----------


## Iclifton

> Actually the multiple printing doesn't support the 50K numbers, as what the multiple printings mean is that DC's wasn't producing enough Nightwing as its prior orders were low. Comichron approximations are no longer that reliable as they no longer have access to DC sales data. Its not that there isn't deflation, its that Comichron can't track it. The book isn't seeing a push so big that orders more then doubled with no deflation. As lovely as that would be its too unrealistic. That doesn't mean this run isn't a success, the book seen an increase, i don't doubt that, but over 50k with no deflation something else. And Grayson alongside Burnside was toted as part of DCYou's inspiration. 
> 
> The numbers were at they're floor before Ric, and just fell further with Ric. It struggled to keep rank in the top 100. If those numbers were a problem for Grayson there's no way those numbers aren't then a problem for the more marketable series. It lasted so long cause the were gearing up for 5G and Nightwing was low priory. It was just more convenient to let Dick be busy work for creators they like but work but no longer draw. 
> 
> Ive said it multiple times, this status que is a direct response to Ric. They went too far one way, and so now they are going the other. And that does make sense, and it is working out, but that doesn't mean Grayson didn't make sense at its time and that it didn't also work out. There's a reason why half the team was put on Batman and Seeley was kept for the new biweekly series. I don't know if Grayson could have lasted 83 issues, it existed under different conditions, but it was iffy if Nightwing was going to be able to make is 83 issue at times. This run has been a success too. But its not that cut and dry, as numbers we see are no longer reliable and the conditions are much different.


I did not say Grayson did not make sense at the time. Just that it was not as successful sales wise the current run. All supporting evidence and tracking shows Nightwing currently in the 50K area. There is literally nothing to disprove that or even throw it in doubt. The Marvel numbers are reliable. As I said the last month Nightwing sold X-Force numbers it was when X-Force was guranteed to be selling 53K. This was issue 83 for Nightwing. So I guess this run falls into that something else category.

The point I am making is Nightwing is a sustainable status quo while Grayson was not. If Grayson had sold these numbers it would have lasted longer. It is also not as marketable. Which is why we get Nightwing in TV shows, if there is ever a movie it will be Nightwing, and videogames instead of secret agent Grayson. Bat family Grayson is what sells.

----------


## Godlike13

> I did not say Grayson did not make sense at the time. Just that it was not as successful sales wise the current run. All supporting evidence and tracking shows Nightwing currently in the 50K area. There is literally nothing to disprove that or even throw it in doubt. The Marvel numbers are reliable. As I said the last month Nightwing sold X-Force numbers it was when X-Force was guranteed to be selling 53K. This was issue 83 for Nightwing. So I guess this run falls into that something else category.
> 
> The point I am making Nightwing is a sustainable status quo while Grayson was not. If Grayson had sold these numbers it would have lasted longer. It is also not as marketable. Which is why we get Nightwing in TV shows, if there is ever a movie it will be Nightwing, and videogames instead of secret agent Grayson.


But its flawed evidence and tracking. Industry history and X-Force being at mid 30's throw it in doubt. It just doesn't work that way. 

And nothing was stopping Rebirth, and Dick falling inline with that initiative. If they relaunched Grayson with Rebirth maybe it does maybe it doesn't. Especially if they're cool with letting it float with similar and even lower numbers for years. Like they were with this series.

----------


## Rakiduam

> Lol gotta start somewhere. Taking inspiration from the most successful movie studio that made a super hero`s  more mainstream then ever is a pretty great place to start.


That's a spin.




> Character gets an A-list team, a massive push, and stars in multiple books after coming out of two of the most creatively bankrupt years of his existence and fans are still just as negative as ever. No other character is comics gets this much hate for simply just being a part of the franchise that spawned him. Super toxic fan base, real bummer.


All it really matters are the stories, no the what list the writting team is or the number of books. Many (if not all) of the best stories of Dick Grayson are as part of a franquince. This run is just a very mediocre story, with the exception of the art everything about it is low effort, from the suit to the relationships, to the villain to the conflicts....It's just accommodating. 

I think the book is the bummer, but sure it seel good enough and isn't Ric, so I guess we found the floor.

----------


## Iclifton

> But its flawed evidence and tracking. Industry history and X-Force being at mid 30's throw it in doubt. It just doesn't work that way. 
> 
> And nothing was stopping Rebirth, and Dick falling inline with that initiative. If they relaunched Grayson with Rebirth maybe it does maybe it doesn't. Especially if they're cool with letting it float with similar and even lower numbers for years. Like they were with this series.


Grayson wouldn`t. Its numbers prove that. It fell faster and lower than any Grayson solo. Your logic makes no sense. Marvel numbers are accurate. I am using the same tracking data you used and provided to make your point to make mine. Literally the proof you gave regarding X-Force supports the 50k range for Nightwing.  The only month they were calculated as near each other X-Force was in the 50K range. Even if Comichron were off it would not be by 20K. It would be by a few. All evidence points to it being in the 50K range. Every metric and approximation puts it there. Your own tracking puts it there. Please provide one source which puts it in the 30K range.

If you can not, then as mentioned previously, you are just refusing to see reality and are interpreting the facts to support whatever narrative you prefer.

----------


## Iclifton

> That's a spin.
> 
> 
> 
> All it really matters are the stories, no the what list the writting team is or the number of books. Many (if not all) of the best stories of Dick Grayson are as part of a franquince. This run is just a very mediocre story, with the exception of the art everything about it is low effort, from the suit to the relationships, to the villain to the conflicts....It's just accommodating. 
> 
> I think the book is the bummer, but sure it seel good enough and isn't Ric, so I guess we found the floor.


I understand not being a fan of the run. Thats fine. Many people would disagree with you but everyone has an opinion.

What is not an opinion is Nightwing is a Batfamily character. Always will be. Its part of what makes him marketable. Its part of the core of the character. This will never change. It is fundamental. That has been the point of every single one of my posts.

----------


## Rac7d*

> I understand not being a fan of the run. Thats fine. Many people would disagree with you but everyone has an opinion.
> 
> What is not an opinion is Nightwing is a Batfamily character. Always will be. Its part of what makes him marketable. Its part of the core of the character. This will never change. It is fundamental. That has been the point of every single one of my posts.


They can argue over Nightwing being a bat family or a titan
But dick Grayson himself is 100 percent apart of the bat brand.

That why In ever show credit Nightwing is serperate from starfire raven and cyborg

----------


## Godlike13

> Grayson wouldn`t. Its numbers prove that. It fell faster and lower than any Grayson solo. Your logic makes no sense. Marvel numbers are accurate. I am using the same tracking data you used and provided to make your point to make mine. Literally the proof you gave regarding X-Force supports the 50k range for Nightwing.  The only month they were calculated as near each other X-Force was in the 50K range. Even if Comichron were off it would not be by 20K. It would be by a few. All evidence points to it being in the 50K range. Every metric and approximation puts it there. Your own tracking puts it there. Please provide one source which puts it in the 30K range.
> 
> If you can not, then as mentioned previously, you are just refusing to see reality and are interpreting the facts to support whatever narrative you prefer.


Grayson did not have line wide relaunches and routine tie-ins to inflate numbers and stem deflation. It existed under different conditions. What’s more Nightwing reached lower numbers, and existed longer with lower numbers. Despite being the more marketable title. Under similar conditions it’s not out of the realm that Grayson couldn’t last. Especially if they don’t care if it falls out of the top 100 and ranks in the teens like we have seen. 
I not using or providing after the Diamond split tracking numbers, I’m questioning them. Because as I say they are no longer reliable. Numbers on ongoing series don’t jump like that, even with successful creative shifts, and deflation just doesn’t stop being an industry constant. And other tracking sites are guessing differently then Comicron. The tracking data we see isn’t reliable anymore.

----------


## AmiMizuno

I do wonder. You think due to the Bateditors that it's the reason due to Dick's low sales? And is there any way to have him leave the Bateditors?

----------


## Iclifton

> Grayson did not have line wide relaunches and routine tie-ins to inflate numbers and stem deflation. It existed under different conditions. What’s more Nightwing reached lower numbers, and existed longer with lower numbers. Despite being the more marketable title. Under similar conditions it’s not out of the realm that Grayson couldn’t last. Especially if they don’t care if it falls out of the top 100 and ranks in the teens like we have seen. 
> I not using after the Diamond split tracking numbers, because as I say they are no longer reliable. Deflation just doesn’t stop being an industry constant. And other tracking sites are guessing differently then Comicron. The tracking data we see isn’t reliable anymore.


Ric did not reach those numbers for some time though and prior to Ric the Nightwing title never reached those numbers. Regardless of how they maintained higher numbers for Rebirth Nightwing, they did. Because it is the more sustainable marketable role. To the best of my knowledge the extremely mediocre New 52 Nightwing also did not drop to Grayson numbers. Additionally, the comparison that is important is to the current run. In all honesty what makes that tracking site more reliable thank Comichron. I am not saying deflation does not exist just that Taylors run has leveled off at or at least near 50k.

Comichron has Nightwing ranked at #46 in the market while your provided link has him higher at #38. Surely that would be around 50K. The true difference is in X-Force being ranked #36 instead of #86 which leads one to assume Comichron to be the more reliable source. Even if this were not the case, this would mean X-Force sold more, not that Nightwing sold less. The inconsitency lies with X-Forces place. Not Nightwing. Both have him listed at nearly the same place in the top 100.

----------


## Iclifton

> I do wonder. You think due to the Bateditors that it's the reason due to Dick's low sales? And is there any way to have him leave the Bateditors?


Current Bat Editors are doing well. He is out selling every other DC character other than Batman and Joker.

----------


## MakeNightwingGreatAgain

> I do wonder. You think due to the Bateditors that it's the reason due to Dick's low sales? And is there any way to have him leave the Bateditors?


Get an IP more popular than Batman to take control of Nightwing/Dick Grayson like NTT editorial did. Until that happens, he will stay with bat editorial.

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## AmiMizuno

> Current Bat Editors are doing well. He is out selling every other DC character other than Batman and Joker.


I mean the issue is he still needs his own editor. Because He is in Batfam so that's why. They aren't pushing others since Clark is gone and Wonder Woman is not having anything major in  while.

----------


## MakeNightwingGreatAgain

> Current Bat Editors are doing well. He is out selling every other DC character other than Batman and Joker.


Batman comics are literally almost half the Titles at DC right now. There isn't really much to read outside Batfam. It has been a common complaint since Rebirth. In the ICVS link Godlike posted, Batman related comics were the most DC titles on the list.

----------


## Iclifton

> Batman comics are literally almost half the Titles at DC right now. There isn't really much to read outside Batfam. It has been a common complaint since Rebirth. In the ICVS link Godlike posted, Batman related comics were the most DC titles on the list.


Yes but he is outselling literally outselling Superman, Justice League, Green Lantern, Wonder Woman and the Justice League. All the Batman books above him are HIGH sellers. These are solid, great numbers.

----------


## Iclifton

> I mean the issue is he still needs his own editor. Because He is in Batfam so that's why. They aren't pushing others since Clark is gone and Wonder Woman is not having anything major in  while.


No character within a franchise gets there own editor. He is part of franchise. His book is not just welling well compared to DC books. It is selling well compared to Marvel characters as well.

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## MakeNightwingGreatAgain

> No character within a franchise gets there own editor. He is part of franchise. His book is not just welling well compared to DC books. It is selling well compared to Marvel characters as well.


Wonder Woman is literally the top selling female character and she also doesnt have her own editorial???

----------


## Iclifton

> Wonder Woman is literally the top selling female character and she also doesnt have her own editorial???


I do not believe so. I could be wrong but I doubt it.

----------


## Godlike13

> Ric did not reach those numbers for some time though. and prior to Ric the Nightwing title never reached those numbers. Regardless of how they maintained higher numbers for Rebirth Nightwing, they did. Because it is the more sustainable marketable role. To the best of my knowledge the extremely mediocre New 52 Nightwing also did not drop to Grayson numbers. Additionally, the comparison that is important is to the current run. In all honesty what makes that tracking site more reliable thank Comichron. I am not saying deflation does not exist just that Taylors run has leveled off at or at least near 50k.


Ric hit those numbers by like the 5th issue of that run, and prior to Ric Nightwing was at 25k and ranking in the low 80’s. This more sustainable marketable role reached the same numbers, and then went even lower. With the current run it’s even harder to compare as the tracking data is no longer reliable. With either sites. The inconsistency between them showing further inconsistency with tracking data now.

I would love noting more for Nightwing to be pulling those kinds of numbers, but that would mean Nightwing is now defying almost all previous sales trends within the industry, to a ridiculous degree, and just no one is really reporting on that.

----------


## Iclifton

> Ric hit those numbers by like the 5th issue of that run, and prior to Ric Nightwing was at 25k and ranking in the low 80’s. This more sustainable marketable role reached the same numbers, and then went even lower. With the current run it’s even harder to compare as the tracking data is no longer reliable. With either sites, with the inconsistency between them show further inconsistency with tracking data now.


Yes but all sites agree about Nightwing place in the top 50 which put right around 50K. Literally all proof points to this. If we were taking bets, near 50k would be the favorite and mid 30k would almost be thowing away your money.

Also Ric was nearly 30k still by the 5th issue. This was with horrible writing. Prior to Ric he sold at around the same rate but had been double shipping for the entire voulme which lead to lower per issue sales across the entire line. During the Ric run Dick was not even operating as Nightwing and foregoing his connection to the Batfamily(the very connection I am arguing makes him marketable). Every run embracing the role of Nightwing and his connection  to the Batfam has outsold Grayson. Again, you are just distorting facts to fit your perceived narrative.

----------


## AmiMizuno

What sites are you using?

----------


## Iclifton

> What sites are you using?


Comicchron and icv2

----------


## AmiMizuno

> Comicchron and icv2


isn't this questionable since diamond broke off.

----------


## Iclifton

Yes they are they just now have to use approximations for the total numbers since DC now distributes through multiple suppliers. They still get it relatively close. This is why all sites that estimate these numbers have Nightwing at almost identical numbers market wise.

----------


## Godlike13

> Yes but all sites agree about Nightwing place in the top 50 which put right around 50K. Literally all proof points to this. If we were taking bets, near 50k would be the favorite and mid 30k would almost be thowing away your money.
> 
> Also Ric was nearly 30k still by the 5th issue. This was with horrible writing. Prior to Ric he sold at around the same rate but had been double shipping for the entire voulme which lead to lower per issue sales across the entire line. During the Ric run Dick was not even operating as Nightwing and foregoing his connection to the Batfamily(the very connection I am arguing makes him marketable). Every run embracing the role of Nightwing and his connection  to the Batfam has outsold Grayson. Again, you are just distorting facts to fit your perceived narrative.


But they don't. icv2 has it around X-Force which would place it mid 30ks, while Comicchron has it in the 50s. Neither can now accurately report numbers as DC's distributor doesn't releases them. Go ahead and bet on 50k with no deflation, but understand the perceived sales trend you are betting on is beyond unusual and uncharacteristic. Not just for the character but within the entire industry.    

Ric was at 26k by 55, 49 was at 25k, Nightwing was at Grayson like lows. As Nightwing and Ric. These aren't distorted facts, and they were in no rush to end the book despite these numbers. And when the double shipped ended it’s not like monthly orders then combined.

----------


## AmiMizuno

Hey is Nightwind still getting that Black Label I haven't heard anything about it. So is it dropped?

----------


## Vordan

> Hey is Nightwind still getting that Black Label I haven't heard anything about it. So is it dropped?


Scott Snyder said the pitch was approved he just has to write it. Right now he’s focused on his creator owned books so who knows when/if he’ll get around to it?

----------


## Aahz

> I do wonder. You think due to the Bateditors that it's the reason due to Dick's low sales? And is there any way to have him leave the Bateditors?


I don't think that leaving the Bateditorial would really due much for his sales.

I don't think that it is realistic to expect, that he could regularly sell Batman or Superman level numbers, ok at the moment he is above Superman, but Superman sales are unusually low at the moment and there isn't even a "Superman" book out at the moment. And Taylors Nightwing run seem super popular for some reason (I don't really get).

During the new 52 and (pre Ric) Rebirth, he was usually having sales around of what the rest of the other 4 of the "big 6" were selling, and that's pretty good for a character that is not Batman ore Superman.

----------


## Restingvoice

> I do not believe so. I could be wrong but I doubt it.


Wonder Woman was under Superman family editorial in New 52. I don't know about now.

----------


## MakeNightwingGreatAgain

> I don't think that leaving the Bateditorial would really due much for his sales.
> 
> I don't think that it is realistic to expect, that he could regularly sell Batman or Superman level numbers, ok at the moment he is above Superman, but Superman sales are unusually low at the moment and there isn't even a "Superman" book out at the moment. And Taylors Nightwing run seem super popular for some reason (I don't really get).
> 
> During the new 52 and (pre Ric) Rebirth, he was usually having sales around of what the rest of the other 4 of the "big 6" were selling, and that's pretty good for a character that is not Batman ore Superman.


Not disagreeing but comic sales are always pretty consistent. The problem is that the sales hover around not being good enough in the long term despite for characters like Batman.  This is why DC has the problem it has. The point for Nightwing is that despite the fact his sales are consistent enough to stay afloat, they arnt significant enough to make a dent in the grand scheme. Which in my opinion is why DC doesnt care to push him because people dont associate Nightwing as brand. Nightwing was being pushed hard by dc when NTT was a thing and then again with Grayson Becuase people outside comics were taking notice and for Grayson that is despite the sales. So it is true that Nightwing doesnt need to be with the batfam to make progress because Higgins, Grayson and NTT showed us that he doesnt. As godlike pointed out, its natural for sales to start off strong and then go down and stagnant. That is a common trend that shouldnt be common and is why DC is feeling the burn.

Like I mentioned, Nightwing was on his way to becoming his own brand with the NTT editorial. He was the star of that entire team. Marv even created new robins because DC asked him to replace dick Grayson for Batman mythos. The plan was always for Dick to become his own. During this time period late 80s early 90s Nightwing as a character was as popular as he probably would ever be. He became an icon at DC. He started appearing more in pop culture. Starfire and Nightwing were at a time considered one of DCs greatest couples. That failed when the editors left and Dick got returned to Bateditorial where they again didnt know what to do with him since they now had both Tim and Jason Todd. And then DC started going down in sales again and well yeah N52 happened.

And marvel did the same thing with spider man and x men. But unlike Marvel. DC never kept up the momentum with NTT and Nightwing. Instead, they let all that work fall tot he wayside in favor of retcons, crisis events and crossovers. I was even told that Wonder Woman also experienced a similar thing during the short lived Mod Era

So this is why people ask for Nightwing to be taken out of Bateditorial. Because whenever he issnt involved with batfam, thats normally when he starts to get more of a push into the general public where all the money is. As he stands right now, it feels like he is being used as a prop for other batfam characters and again thats because DC. has never known what to do with Dick Grayson. Robin was always meant to be a secondary character to Batman. He was never supposed to leave the nest. And it doesnt help that lots of people still believe Batam should be solo. So when Nightwing came back to Bateditorial, they went back to the idea that no one should unseat Batman.

----------


## Aahz

> Not disagreeing but comic sales are always pretty consistent. The problem is that the sales hover around not being good enough in the long term despite for characters like Batman.  This is why DC has the problem it has. The point for Nightwing is that despite the fact his sales are consistent enough to stay afloat, they arnt significant enough to make a dent in the grand scheme. Which in my opinion is why DC doesnt care to push him because people dont associate Nightwing as brand. Nightwing was being pushed hard by dc when NTT was a thing and then again with Grayson Becuase people outside comics were taking notice and for Grayson that is despite the sales. So it is true that Nightwing doesnt need to be with the batfam to make progress because Higgins, Grayson and NTT showed us that he doesnt. As godlike pointed out, its natural for sales to start off strong and then go down and stagnant. That is a common trend that shouldnt be common and is why DC is feeling the burn.


 But for his sales to really grow, in the end of the day the number of comic buyers has to increase. Like I said he is allready selling numbers comparable with DCs bigges characters outside of Batman and Superman.




> Like I mentioned, Nightwing was on his way to becoming his own brand with the NTT editorial. He was the star of that entire team. Marv even created new robins because DC asked him to replace dick Grayson for Batman mythos. The plan was always for Dick to become his own. During this time period late 80s early 90s Nightwing as a character was as popular as he probably would ever be. He became an icon at DC. He started appearing more in pop culture. Starfire and Nightwing were at a time considered one of DCs greatest couples. That failed when the editors left and Dick got returned to Bateditorial where they again didnt know what to do with him since they now had both Tim and Jason Todd. And then DC started going down in sales again and well yeah N52 happened.


The problem was more that NTT simply became pretty crappy in the end (and I'm talking here about almost everyting from the 90s), and that franchise has sofar never really managed get back on tack since then.

----------


## Rakiduam

> I understand not being a fan of the run. Thats fine. Many people would disagree with you but everyone has an opinion.
> 
> What is not an opinion is Nightwing is a Batfamily character. Always will be. Its part of what makes him marketable. Its part of the core of the character. This will never change. It is fundamental. That has been the point of every single one of my posts.


OK... but in the current run that's ALL he is, every around him is part of Batman, his whole word is related to Batman, and that is so little, why do you like him small character in his own world? And again, all of that would be easier to ignore if the storie wasn't so mediocre.

----------


## Konja7

> Like I mentioned, Nightwing was on his way to becoming his own brand with the NTT editorial. He was the star of that entire team. Marv even created new robins because DC asked him to replace dick Grayson for Batman mythos. The plan was always for Dick to become his own. During this time period late 80s early 90s Nightwing as a character was as popular as he probably would ever be. He became an icon at DC. He started appearing more in pop culture. Starfire and Nightwing were at a time considered one of DCs greatest couples. That failed when the editors left and Dick got returned to Bateditorial where they again didnt know what to do with him since they now had both Tim and Jason Todd. And then DC started going down in sales again and well yeah N52 happened.


I wouldn't say that Nightwing was the star of NTT. He was the leader, but he wasn't really more important or relevant than other characters in that team.

It's true that Nightwing become really independent from Batman brand in NTT, but he wasn't a solo hero either. He was part of the team and there wasn't plans for him to be a solo hero.

DC returned Nightwing to Batman editorial when NTT had dropped in sales and popularity. In other words, this was the best thing that could happen to the character in that situation (and Nightwing even gets a solo).

----------


## MakeNightwingGreatAgain

> But for his sales to really grow, in the end of the day the number of comic buyers has to increase. Like I said he is allready selling numbers comparable with DCs bigges characters outside of Batman and Superman.
> 
> The problem was more that NTT simply became pretty crappy in the end (and I'm talking here about almost everyting from the 90s), and that franchise has sofar never really managed get back on tack since then.


Youre right! But the same can be said about most Nightwing content. They stories normally get convoluted and contrived with no real direction. Its a big complaint about the big two comic companies in that the stories are too open ended and have way to many changes that mean nothing. People clearly are into the graphic novel format since indie, manga and webcomics are receiving a huge boom. DC needs to shake up the status quo and do more self contained worlds that dont cross over unless its absolutely necessary.its kinda hard to follow a characters story when you have to buy Batman, batgirl, Superman, justice league ect ect just to get through the event. Its very alienating to new readers. Also the fact that for Nightwing in particular, the writers change way too often making things every inconsistent.

DC shot itself in the foot with NTT when the original people left. Nightwing has an amazing story arc that put him in a very good spot. It was supposed to really make him his own hero on a different path from Batman. Teen titans continues to be one of thier biggest fandoms but they do nothing with them. The reason none of the legacy characters stuck is because DC never wanted to replace the OG in the first place and didnt have a plan for their new mantels. Wally and Kyle got the lucky end of the deal as Wally became the Flash and Kyle has Green Lantern stuff. Cyborg also kinda made it out with justice league and DCEU. Nightwing, Troia, Starfire, Aqualad, Kid Flash (Wally now), Raven and Beast boy will probably never really be pushed by dc again. Ill end my words when I see it haha

Im not saying Nighrwing isnt selling. Im saying his sales are clearly not making a dent (neither are most other characters, but the fact that batfam fans read all batfam content it keeps him from being cancelled despite other series being cancelled with equal or worse numbers). There is a reason DC has bit heavily by discovery and is returning to its pre-NTT phase. Comic fans are not gonna save them. DC needs to start doing more promo to general public and shake things up like they did with NTT. I just think they dont wanna do it.

----------


## MakeNightwingGreatAgain

> I wouldn't say that Nightwing was the star of NTT. He was the leader, but he wasn't really more important or relevant than other characters in that team.
> 
> It's true that Nightwing become really independent from Batman brand in NTT, but he wasn't a solo hero either. He was part of the team and there wasn't plans for him to be a solo hero.
> 
> DC returned Nightwing to Batman editorial when NTT had dropped in sales and popularity. In other words, this was the best thing that could happen to the character in that situation (and Nightwing even gets a solo).


 Things started going downhill when the editors left and Marv was planning on leaving. Dc didn’t know what to do. If everything went according to plans, NTT would have been different. It’s what happens when you have no safety net really. So I’m surprised. Nightwing already had a mini series planned before his solo so there were plans in the making with the NTT people. It played into the whole issue 100 thing originally. 

Idk difference of opinion but Robin/Nightwing is the face of NTT. I’m not downplaying Batman influence, but Nightwing was returned to bat-editorial because everyone was leaving. They retconned everything with NTT because of it to re-do his character since that team was no longer there. Nightwing needed to become a side character in bat mythos again and yeah that’s what they did. A ton of dc editors and writers left during that time for other options.

I’m not sure if the solo was planned before or after bateditorial. But from the research I did find, the editors for Nightwing had some pretty interesting plans for him. I wanna believe the solo was planned before bateditorial took him back but because everyone left before they could enact it, bateditorial took it and ran. Nightwing wouldn’t have gotten a solo if it wasn’t for his popularity during NTT that’s for sure.

----------


## Aahz

> DC shot itself in the foot with NTT when the original people left.


NTT had the same writer from start to finish, it was just not good anymore for the last 5 or so years. The down fall started imo with the Titans Hunt story line beginninh with New Titans #71.

And Dick allready stopped being a main character on the NTT after the "Wedding" between him and Starfire about 30 issues before the series endet.

----------


## MakeNightwingGreatAgain

> NTT had the same writer from start to finish, it was just not good anymore for the last 5 or so years. The down fall started imo with the Titans Hunt story line beginninh with New Titans #71.
> 
> And Dick allready stopped being a main character on the NTT after the "Wedding" between him and Starfire about 30 issues before the series endet.


That’s when the editors were planning on leaving and scrapped the plans lol that’s what I’m saying. The miniseries was leading into issue 100. I’m not entirely sure when, but it was probaby original planned for after titans hunt or it was intended to be in titans hunt. That information wasn’t released but yeah the series ended in a way that wasn’t planned. DC scrambled and that’s what we got. Marv even re-did the wedding as per bateditorial instructions because they had to take Nightwing back.

----------


## AmiMizuno

If Nightwing is still getting a black label it mostly we take place in the NTT. Since that's where most Nightwing stories go(Batfam)

----------


## WonderNight

Maybe the way to fix the titans would be to give them there own editorial with the Nightwing solo moved over there with wallys flash?

Nightwing, Flash (wally), titans and TTA under the same editorial might fix that Ip. Nightwing can still show up in the batbooks but his solo is a titans book first?

----------


## OBrianTallent

> NTT had the same writer from start to finish, it was just not good anymore for the last 5 or so years. The down fall started imo with the Titans Hunt story line beginninh with New Titans #71.
> 
> And Dick allready stopped being a main character on the NTT after the "Wedding" between him and Starfire about 30 issues before the series endet.


Something to keep in mind is that Marv Wolfman has been quite open about his scripts being changed and the editorial interference he experienced over the last few years of the title.

----------


## Vordan

> Maybe the way to fix the titans would be to give them there own editorial with the Nightwing solo moved over there with wallys flash?
> 
> Nightwing, Flash (wally), titans and TTA under the same editorial might fix that Ip. Nightwing can still show up in the batbooks but his solo is a titans book first?


Could work but the Titans have also been a dumpsterfire so I’m not sure Dick benefits from being tied to closely to them either.

----------


## WonderNight

> Could work but the Titans have also been a dumpsterfire so I’m not sure Dick benefits from being tied to closely to them either.


true but if the nightwing book was under the same editorial than nightwing wouldn't need to also be on the main team, just do its own thing but still be connected. Like how his solo currently does with the other batbooks but now with the titans.

But I'd still prefer something new. I'd like for when jon's new generation JL forms dick is the nick fury of their generation and team. The fury to their avengers.

----------


## AmiMizuno

Hopefully he will be in the JL has Dc's decision was only make him appear in Batfam and Titans. On a side note Scott Synder left so him getting a black label is in question. So any good stories that can't be told probably will not . Because many characters kind of Benefit from that. While Titans is a dump people will know More and more of Nightwing. That's what you need getting him More and more known. People know Dick Grayson as Robin more than Nightwing no?

----------


## Godlike13

JL is a waste of time. Rather see a new team.

----------


## AmiMizuno

Like who? A new team ? What would the team be like ? 

Also do we know even if the movie will happen ? I know the director said it's not die but that's the same with the animated series Nightwing. Wouldn't there be more stuff on them, or I guess more stuff next year for them. I mean heck rumor has it he will finally get it own animated Nightwing movie. Maybe that's how the director will get his Nightwing movie. I mean with how many years it been. I think he said he is waiting for the greenlit. Hopefully next year

----------


## Lal

Nightwing #85 is so far the 3rd best seller of the week on Comixology, even ahead of Superman son of Kal el and Batman/Catwoman - 
https://www.comixology.com/comics-best-sellers

----------


## Ascended

> Also do we know even if the movie will happen ? I know the director said it's not die but that's the same with the animated series Nightwing. Wouldn't there be more stuff on them, or I guess more stuff next year for them. I mean heck rumor has it he will finally get it own animated Nightwing movie. Maybe that's how the director will get his Nightwing movie. I mean with how many years it been. I think he said he is waiting for the greenlit. Hopefully next year


Far as I know, the last we heard about any film was that the live action thing wasn't "totally" dead in the water. But that doesn't mean anything, plenty of films float in development limbo for years, even decades, before the people behind them finally give up.

I wouldn't get your hopes up, for either the live action or animated. Odds are we'll continue to see Dick in ensembles like Young Justice or Titans (where he's a main draw) or in a supporting role to Batman.

As always, never say never. We are well past the point where conventional wisdom dictates a film/show has to be about a ultra famous character like Batman or Superman. Dick is a consistent, strong seller with decades of larger media appearances under his belt and a loyal fanbase spread across social media. But just because it *could* happen doesn't mean it *will* and given how WB has handled most of their films, I wouldn't get too excited anyway because they'd probably screw it up.

----------


## Vordan

Apparently AT&T has been really skimpy with the budget for MAX content. Perhaps once Discovery takes over they will green light more content because MAX needs loads of new shows to compete with Netflix and the links. Then we might see a Nightwing cartoon or what have you. But not before and not any time soon.

----------


## AmiMizuno

> Far as I know, the last we heard about any film was that the live action thing wasn't "totally" dead in the water. But that doesn't mean anything, plenty of films float in development limbo for years, even decades, before the people behind them finally give up.
> 
> I wouldn't get your hopes up, for either the live action or animated. Odds are we'll continue to see Dick in ensembles like Young Justice or Titans (where he's a main draw) or in a supporting role to Batman.
> 
> As always, never say never. We are well past the point where conventional wisdom dictates a film/show has to be about a ultra famous character like Batman or Superman. Dick is a consistent, strong seller with decades of larger media appearances under his belt and a loyal fanbase spread across social media. But just because it *could* happen doesn't mean it *will* and given how WB has handled most of their films, I wouldn't get too excited anyway because they'd probably screw it up.


YJ might be endanger again. With Titans true. I hope we get a strong film than. How likely do you guys think Nightwing comics will be cancalled?

----------


## Fergus

The 7 Best Days In Batman's Life

https://www.dccomics.com/blog/2021/1...n-batmans-life

----------


## Fergus

> YJ might be endanger again. With Titans true. I hope we get a strong film than. How likely do you guys think Nightwing comics will be cancalled?


Unlikely the comics will be cancelled. Not only is it a strong seller it's also doing double duty as a home for some homeless bats. The new Tec until the Tec 12 issue batfam story starts.

----------


## Rac7d*

> YJ might be endanger again. With Titans true. I hope we get a strong film than. How likely do you guys think Nightwing comics will be cancelled?


Guy at the top just said its best seller the book is is doing phenomenal, especially compared to the rest of DC lineup. As along it continues to perform critically and commercially and still has it A list talent team, who are committed to the book, there is no reason to cancel or to change Nightwing's current trajectory in the comics

Then again bat comics have survived off of less, i remember not to long ago redhood and catwoman would be scrapping the bottom of most lists sales wise and they never received shook up or interference

Screenshot 2021-10-25 100840.jpg

----------


## Iclifton

There has not even been any Nightwing in this season of Young Justice. Seriously, how long are they going to keep it centered on Mars. Not enjoying season  at all.

----------


## Frontier

> There has not even been any Nightwing in this season of Young Justice. Seriously, how long are they going to keep it centered on Mars. Not enjoying season  at all.


Seems like each of the OG!Team is going to get their own mini-arc this season.

----------


## Rac7d*

> There has not even been any Nightwing in this season of Young Justice. Seriously, how long are they going to keep it centered on Mars. Not enjoying season  at all.


We will get story arc on each of our main characters taking lead, however since they 3 episode each I’m gonna have to binge it

----------


## Veni

> There has not even been any Nightwing in this season of Young Justice. Seriously, how long are they going to keep it centered on Mars. Not enjoying season  at all.


I love Nightwing. He is one of my favorite DC characters but Young Justice is an ensemble show. This isn't the Batman show. They will focus on (mainly) the original cast from season 1, Nightwing included. Not every episode will feature him. Besides, Batman along with his supporting cast and villains are the only thing that WB and DC generally invest in or have interest only. Let other characters shine.

----------


## Iclifton

> I love Nightwing. He is one of my favorite DC characters but Young Justice is an ensemble show. This isn't the Batman show. They will focus on (mainly) the original cast from season 1, Nightwing included. Not every episode will feature him. Besides, Batman along with his supporting cast and villains are the only thing that WB and DC generally invest in or have interest only.


Yea and I would not mind them focusing on other characters if their story was interesting. Unfortunately, the Mars story is almost unwatchable and boring to me. Wish they were jumping back and forth so I would at least have something to enjoy per episode. Or like season 1, focus on the core team together. But hey, maybe I am in the minority and the Mars storyline is popular.

----------


## Rac7d*

> Yea and I would not mind them focusing on other characters if their story was interesting. Unfortunately, the Mars story is almost unwatchable and boring to me. Wish they were jumping back and forth so I would at least have something to enjoy per episode. Or like season 1, focus on the core team together. But hey, maybe I am in the minority and the Mars storyline is popular.


I’m sure your not, 
Magical/alien racism never hits well especially after what we have been seeing in real life over the last few years
We’re surrounded by characters we don’t know or relate too

I think it over
Next episode should star a Zatanna arc

----------


## Veni

> Yea and I would not mind them focusing on other characters if their story was interesting. Unfortunately, the Mars story is almost unwatchable and boring to me. Wish they were jumping back and forth so I would at least have something to enjoy per episode. Or like season 1, focus on the core team together. But hey, maybe I am in the minority and the Mars storyline is popular.


 The one thing that Young Justice is amazing at, unlike most shows, is that it focuses more on character development which I love.

----------


## Iclifton

> Many love the Mars storyline including me. The one thing that Young Justice is amazing at, unlike most shows, is that it focuses more on character development which I love.


Well more power to you, glad your enjoying it.

I prefer the more grounded earth storylines and honestly Conner and Miss Martian are my least favorite team members so I was bound to dislike it from the beginning. Upside for me is I love all the other team members so I should be in for an improvement  soon.

----------


## Fergus

> There has not even been any Nightwing in this season of Young Justice. Seriously, how long are they going to keep it centered on Mars. Not enjoying season  at all.


Thought this season was going to focus on the OG members?

----------


## Rac7d*

> Thought this season was going to focus on the OG members?


it is, Miss Martian and Superboy was first

----------


## Iclifton

> Thought this season was going to focus on the OG members?


Technically it is. Superboy and Miss Martian. Just on Mars with no other characters so far. Which I wouldn`t mind but damn 3 episodes in row seems like a lot.

----------


## Digifiend

> The current run ends at issue 12, so who knows? Still, seeing Red X kick in Wally's smug New Teen Titans face would've been fun.


Teen Titans Academy doesn't end at #12. Sheridan planned to leave then, or shortly after.




> I'd support Robin-Stargirl. I don't know if Tim has landed on a label for his orientation yet but he's liked girls in the past and what young teenaged man wouldn't find Courtney the most adorable thing ever?
> 
> Courtney is a fantastic character who needs to get more exposure. I'm glad her show seems to be doing well (I don't watch the CW so I haven't seen it) but I wish DC would allow her to go beyond the JSA's sphere of influence (especially since the JSA has been gone for a friggin decade). Let her hang with Young Justice or the Titans, if the JSA is off the board. Or Flash. Or Superman. Or Wonder Woman. Or who the hell ever. Just get her into some book somewhere!
> 
> This is the character that launched Johns' career, really. She's beloved by fans, tied tightly to one of the biggest creators DC has had in decades, and is connected to one of the oldest franchises in comics. Why the f*ck is this kid not a bigger deal by now?


She does have her own TV show....




> That all sounds good but the problem is that once dc puts you into a franchise you're locked in. So she locked into the jsa. This mind set really hurts characters like vixen and captain Adam or star girl because there locked down to a franchise or don't have one.


In New 52, when JSA wasn't a thing, they didn't stick her in Earth-2 with the other normally JSA characters, she joined the JLA.

In-universe, Young Justice did try to recruit the Star Spangled Kid not long after her debut. They didn't even know she was a girl, and after actually meeting her, she ended up turning them down because she was already in the JSA.




> She's a high schooler in New 52, so still Tim's age


Stargirl Spring Break Special confirms Courtney hasn't aged up. However, it seems that Tim recently HAS, so they're no longer the same age.




> Nightwing was created to be with the Titans. His creation was the result of the Batbooks wanting Robin back and NTT wanting to keep him. There were no solo designs with him then.


Yeah, it was a compromise. Titans keeps Dick Grayson, but gives him a new identity, and Batman gets Robin back, but with a new secret identity (Jason Todd).

----------


## Rac7d*

I would love a redo of this

----------


## Restingvoice

> Teen Titans Academy doesn't end at #12. Sheridan planned to leave then, or shortly after.
> 
> She does have her own TV show....
> 
> In New 52, when JSA wasn't a thing, they didn't stick her in Earth-2 with the other normally JSA characters, she joined the JLA.
> 
> In-universe, Young Justice did try to recruit the Star Spangled Kid not long after her debut. They didn't even know she was a girl, and after actually meeting her, she ended up turning them down because she was already in the JSA.
> 
> Stargirl Spring Break Special confirms Courtney hasn't aged up. However, it seems that Tim recently HAS, so they're no longer the same age.


Did they say how old Tim is?

----------


## Digifiend

At least 18, as his pre-Flashpoint solo book is back in continuity.

----------


## Konja7

> At least 18, as his pre-Flashpoint solo book is back in continuity.


Tim may recover the memories (although other writers could ignore that), but his age is still a mystery. I suspect DC will mantain Tim as a teen. 

Not to mention that Tim was 17 in Pre-Flashpoint continuity.

----------


## Restingvoice

> At least 18, as his pre-Flashpoint solo book is back in continuity.


All of them? Which parts have they mentioned in any books after Death Metal? Like for example what about Stephanie's role?

----------


## Aahz

> At least 18, as his pre-Flashpoint solo book is back in continuity.


I think if he was 18, they would have mentioned that by now, to me it looks like he is still supposed to be 16 or 17.

And pre-flashpoint seems to be only partly back in the continuity. It is of course hard to bring examples for Tim since he doesn't really has book at the moment, but look at Nightwing for example. In his current series they make references to stuff that happened back in his pre flashpoint series, but it is also pretty clear that not everything from this run is back in continuity since for example Blüdheaven is not a nuclear wasteland, the apartment building Dick is still now living in again does still exist and blockbuster is still alive.

----------


## Ascended

I think DC is adopting Marvel's approach to continuity; it all happened but it might not ever get talked about again, and if it is the details might be real fuzzy (like which war Frank Castle fought in). 

But thanks to Crisis events and retcons I guess we assume everything and nothing is in continuity until the book tells us so.

----------


## AmiMizuno

Question is there anyway to have Dc sales now that they have left Diamond? I been trying to look at this year and last years sales but don't know where to look.

----------


## MakeNightwingGreatAgain

> I think DC is adopting Marvel's approach to continuity; it all happened but it might not ever get talked about again, and if it is the details might be real fuzzy (like which war Frank Castle fought in). 
> 
> But thanks to Crisis events and retcons, I guess we assume everything and nothing is in continuity until the book tells us so.


Currently (and likely for the next 5-10 years) everything is canon and not canon in DC Comics (and this also includes animation stuff as well). Any writer can use any part of a character's history for their work. Which means one writer can come in using Dick's history with the NTT in their run and then, after, the new writer can completely go in a different direction using Batfam Mythos. Dan DiDio mentioned this in an interview that it was the plan with the new direction and then when Geoff Johns left, Dan said writers are gonna be able to do with that they want now with less restriction and then Didio either left or was fired. 

This change started with Infinite Frontier. It will become the new "relaunch/reboot" with Dark Nights Metal and Fear State leading into that. Lots of mantles are going to be replaced for a while. Wonder Woman, Superman, Green Lantern and Batman already have their "replacements" for the new lineup. Itll be interesting to see how it turns out. 

The Nightwing comic is having a big thing happen at 100 apparently, so we will see what it is. There have been rumors of Tom Taylor gearing up to replace Tom King as the Batman writer so we will have to see about that. Taylor is also the driving for behind the current Superman (Jon) and has already said Damian and Jon will team up again. Part of me is thinking that Dick is getting replaced as Nightwing in issue 100 while he takes on a more benefactor like role in the Batfam.  Babs is rumored to be the oracle in that book as well and since Nightwing leads up to Batgirls book, it's just a sinking feeling.

This is exactly the opposite of Marvel is doing and what they have done in the past. Marvel reboots yes, but it's normally contained in the character's world rather than a whole universe thing and some characters like Hulk are actually more popular being done this way. Spider-man has had character reboots for a while because of different writers trying to change things, but I believe it's slowing down (could be wrong). Marvel normally takes the approach of taking old heros and bringing them to the present with a slight twist or reason for them being there (hence why Captain America being frozen in time was the reason for him to show up in the present). The new characters at Marvel are entirely new versions of old heros so to speak. Like Iron Heart being equivalent to Iron Man or Miss Marvel being equivalent to Captain Marvel. DC had a chance to do this with characters like Troia, Arsenal and Nightwing, but they gave them the shaft. If DC had gone in the direction Marvel did, then Nightwing would have been having his own concrete mythos and rogues' gallery just updated in a way to give it a fresh spin while retaining its original flare.

Personally, I hate the direction that DC is going in and it feels very forced and unorganized. The Nightwing comic has Dick doing more out of costume than in costume. And it reads like tumblr fanfic. Tim and Batgirl have outshined Dick so far in his own solo. My opinion is that status quo sells for a reason. You can reboot a character or universe without losing the very essence of what made that character great anyway (same villains' new stories, same side cast new way of them meeting, same love interest but new build up to the endgame).

DC will do another reboot after all of this and it when it happens I personally hope they just re-set continuity and build up from scratch again focusing on world building, character development and rogues gallery with an emphasis on making the original legacy characters solidified in their own world to stand with the OG's not beneath them. But we know DC wont do this so.

----------


## Zorkel567

> At least 18, as his pre-Flashpoint solo book is back in continuity.


Yeah, I'd say Tim is either 18 or 19 now. 

In Urban Legends #4, the first part of "Sum of Our Parts," Oracle makes a comment about Ivy Town University not working out for Tim, but he'll find his path. 

So unless they're trying to go with a genius/graduated early take, it seems Tim should be old enough to go to college, but made the decision not to do so right now.

----------


## Iclifton

> Currently (and likely for the next 5-10 years) everything is canon and not canon in DC Comics (and this also includes animation stuff as well). Any writer can use any part of a character's history for their work. Which means one writer can come in using Dick's history with the NTT in their run and then, after, the new writer can completely go in a different direction using Batfam Mythos. Dan DiDio mentioned this in an interview that it was the plan with the new direction and then when Geoff Johns left, Dan said writers are gonna be able to do with that they want now with less restriction and then Didio either left or was fired. 
> 
> This change started with Infinite Frontier. It will become the new "relaunch/reboot" with Dark Nights Metal and Fear State leading into that. Lots of mantles are going to be replaced for a while. Wonder Woman, Superman, Green Lantern and Batman already have their "replacements" for the new lineup. Itll be interesting to see how it turns out. 
> 
> The Nightwing comic is having a big thing happen at 100 apparently, so we will see what it is. There have been rumors of Tom Taylor gearing up to replace Tom King as the Batman writer so we will have to see about that. Taylor is also the driving for behind the current Superman (Jon) and has already said Damian and Jon will team up again. Part of me is thinking that Dick is getting replaced as Nightwing in issue 100 while he takes on a more benefactor like role in the Batfam.  Babs is rumored to be the oracle in that book as well and since Nightwing leads up to Batgirls book, it's just a sinking feeling.
> 
> This is exactly the opposite of Marvel is doing and what they have done in the past. Marvel reboots yes, but it's normally contained in the character's world rather than a whole universe thing and some characters like Hulk are actually more popular being done this way. Spider-man has had character reboots for a while because of different writers trying to change things, but I believe it's slowing down (could be wrong). Marvel normally takes the approach of taking old heros and bringing them to the present with a slight twist or reason for them being there (hence why Captain America being frozen in time was the reason for him to show up in the present). The new characters at Marvel are entirely new versions of old heros so to speak. Like Iron Heart being equivalent to Iron Man or Miss Marvel being equivalent to Captain Marvel. DC had a chance to do this with characters like Troia, Arsenal and Nightwing, but they gave them the shaft. If DC had gone in the direction Marvel did, then Nightwing would have been having his own concrete mythos and rogues' gallery just updated in a way to give it a fresh spin while retaining its original flare.
> 
> Personally, I hate the direction that DC is going in and it feels very forced and unorganized. The Nightwing comic has Dick doing more out of costume than in costume. And it reads like tumblr fanfic. Tim and Batgirl have outshined Dick so far in his own solo. My opinion is that status quo sells for a reason. You can reboot a character or universe without losing the very essence of what made that character great anyway (same villains' new stories, same side cast new way of them meeting, same love interest but new build up to the endgame).
> ...


Talk about jumping to conclusions. They are not getting rid of Dick and he is not becoming solely a benefactor. The point of the run so far has been to tell a more personal Dick Grayson story. Some people want to see what he is like out of the costume. Whether you like it or not is an opinion. But there has been nothing hinting at what your saying lol. Do not like the run, thats fine. But it definitely has not be a detriment to the character. 

What Marvel franchise character is getting a better treatment than Dick right now? Iron Heart and Miss Marvel. Comic wise Dick is doing much better. Maybe on the media side but this is strictly because the MCU is farther along and more developed  than the DCU. Another factor is both Iron Heart and Ms.Marvel are minorities and the MCU is striving to be more diverse.

----------


## Godlike13

Dick's doing pretty well in other media too. With Titans getting a 4th season and Gotham Knights coming. Now if he can just get some traction on that movie. 

But ya, even Marvel wouldn't be pushing Nightwing like they do Iron Heart or Ms. Marvel. Nor would he be have his own concrete mythos. As what Marvel did with those characters is use the mythos of others to help introduce them to increase their diversity profile of characters. Signal would be an example DC trying to do this.

----------


## Drako

> Dick's doing pretty well in other media too. With Titans getting a 4th season and Gotham Knights coming. Now if he can just get some traction on that movie.


And Young Justice.

----------


## Iclifton

> Dick's doing pretty well in other media too. With Titans getting a 4th season and Gotham Knights coming. Now if he can just get some traction on that movie.


Agreed, a Nightwing movie would be great. Even an HBO Max release like Batgirl would be awesome. The character lends himself to some amazing and visually unique, fast paced acrobatic fight scenes/stunts.

----------


## Lucas 35

What did you think of Dick/Robin in Batman The Long Halloween Special? 

His scenes with Barbara were cute

----------


## Frontier

> What did you think of Dick/Robin in Batman The Long Halloween Special? 
> 
> His scenes with Barbara were cute


"Uncle Jim" still feels weird but it's nice to see Tim Sale draw Batgirl.

----------


## SiegePerilous02

> "Uncle Jim" still feels weird but it's nice to see Tim Sale draw Batgirl.


Yeah, it was a cute scene and since the work is tied to Miller's Year One it can't be helped, but I will never not hate "Uncle Jim" with a fiery passion in general. One of the dumbest and most needless retcons ever.

----------


## MakeNightwingGreatAgain

> Talk about jumping to conclusions. They are not getting rid of Dick and he is not becoming solely a benefactor. The point of the run so far has been to tell a more personal Dick Grayson story. Some people want to see what he is like out of the costume. Whether you like it or not is an opinion. But there has been nothing hinting at what your saying lol. Do not like the run, thats fine. But it definitely has not be a detriment to the character. 
> 
> What Marvel franchise character is getting a better treatment than Dick right now? Iron Heart and Miss Marvel. Comic wise Dick is doing much better. Maybe on the media side but this is strictly because the MCU is farther along and more developed  than the DCU. Another factor is both Iron Heart and Ms.Marvel are minorities and the MCU is striving to be more diverse.


Well sorry to burst your bubble but if it wasnt for that terrible Ric run, Tom King had planned to have Tim take over the mantle while dick was recovering soooo its entirely still possible (Taylor also apparently supported the idea). People said they would never kill Dick off and yet it still happened. So nothing is off the table, its ok for people to speculate. Like the run all you want but Dick is extremely OOC and the bad writing is detriment to his character. There is a reason why many of the people behind making the decisions keep trying to either kill Dick off or think he is too boring to give good writing to or to think he is a priority for a movie.

I used marvel as an example of something that DC tried to do a version of but failed. They even tried to re-create X-Men with NTT (that was kind of a success). Why does it matter that they are minorities? DC is doing the same thing right now with infinite frontier/5G. Thats why I mentioned it. Comic wise, Nightwing isnt selling anymore or doing any better  than he normally does.

----------


## Lal

> Well sorry to burst your bubble but if it wasnt for that terrible Ric run, Tom King had planned to have Tim take over the mantle while dick was recovering soooo its entirely still possible (Taylor also apparently supported the idea). People said they would never kill Dick off and yet it still happened. So nothing is off the table, its ok for people to speculate. Like the run all you want but Dick is extremely OOC and the bad writing is detriment to his character. There is a reason why many of the people behind making the decisions keep trying to either kill Dick off or think he is too boring to give good writing to or to think he is a priority for a movie.
> 
> I used marvel as an example of something that DC tried to do a version of but failed. They even tried to re-create X-Men with NTT (that was kind of a success). Why does it matter that they are minorities? DC is doing the same thing right now with infinite frontier/5G. Thats why I mentioned it. Comic wise, Nightwing isnt selling anymore or doing any better  than he normally does.


Tim was supposed to be Nightwing temporarily. Personally, I much prefer it over the Nightwings idea. It could have explored their relationship and their bond. Not sure what it would have done to Tim, though. Maybe it could have been the push needed for him to understand he wants his own identity and his own city.

Nightwing was amongst the top 50 sellers in all lists since Taylor took over, based on comichorn the book is selling about 50k, and on Comixology was the 3rd best seller comics of the month. It's doing much better than before.

----------


## Fergus

> Well sorry to burst your bubble but if it wasnt for that terrible Ric run, Tom King had planned to have Tim take over the mantle while dick was recovering soooo its entirely still possible (Taylor also apparently supported the idea). People said they would never kill Dick off and yet it still happened. So nothing is off the table, its ok for people to speculate. Like the run all you want but Dick is extremely OOC and the bad writing is detriment to his character. There is a reason why many of the people behind making the decisions keep trying to either kill Dick off or think he is too boring to give good writing to or to think he is a priority for a movie.
> 
> I used marvel as an example of something that DC tried to do a version of but failed. They even tried to re-create X-Men with NTT (that was kind of a success). Why does it matter that they are minorities? DC is doing the same thing right now with infinite frontier/5G. Thats why I mentioned it. Comic wise, Nightwing isnt selling anymore or doing any better  than he normally does.



King didn't pitch Tim as a temp replacement. He came up with that in a Podcast but was never pitched. He pitched Zatara giving him his memory back.

Nightwing might not be selling any better than before but he out sells anyone they could replace him with [unless they replace him with Bruce Wayne]

Many people behind the scene don't keep trying to kill him off. One person wanted to. Didio. His reason was to protect the biggest money maker. Batman.

Nightwing might not be Priority for a Movie but he carries many franchises and is one of the most widely used DC characters in other media.

----------


## Drako

> I used marvel as an example of something that DC tried to do a version of but failed. They even tried to re-create X-Men with NTT (that was kind of a success). Why does it matter that they are minorities? DC is doing the same thing right now with infinite frontier/5G. That’s why I mentioned it. Comic wise, Nightwing isn’t selling anymore or doing any better  than he normally does.


He is selling well, especially in today's market. You can deny all you want, but that is a fact.

----------


## Iclifton

> Well sorry to burst your bubble but if it wasn’t for that terrible Ric run, Tom King had planned to have Tim take over the mantle while dick was recovering soooo its entirely still possible (Taylor also apparently supported the idea). People said they would never kill Dick off and yet it still happened. So nothing is off the table, it’s ok for people to speculate. Like the run all you want but Dick is extremely OOC and the bad writing is detriment to his character. There is a reason why many of the people behind making the decisions keep trying to either kill Dick off or think he is too boring to give good writing to or to think he is a priority for a movie.
> 
> I used marvel as an example of something that DC tried to do a version of but failed. They even tried to re-create X-Men with NTT (that was kind of a success). Why does it matter that they are minorities? DC is doing the same thing right now with infinite frontier/5G. That’s why I mentioned it. Comic wise, Nightwing isn’t selling anymore or doing any better  than he normally does.


Yes, Nightwing is currently doing and selling better than he normally does. Your in denial.

Tim was only supposed to be Nightwing for a short period. Probably would have been better than Ric. Just because it was in the plans years ago does not mean it is now. There are no signs pointing to this, hence, "jumping to conclusions". Dick has not been out of character whatsoever. Everything he has said and done has been in line. He has always wanted to be peoples safety net. Makes sense he would spend his entire fortune on other people. You cannot like the story, but Dick has literally done nothing OOC.

I use Marvel as an example because they do not have any spin-off franchises being treated better than Nightwing. It matters they are minorities as Marvel wants to create a more diverse line which is why both characters are getting a MCU show. "Extremely bad writing". Come on, you can not enjoy it, but damn you have a real "sky is falling attitude". Take a deep breath. The character has an A-list team that is getting a big push, is in a bunch of comic titles currently, has multiple TV shows, a video game and closer than ever to mainstream recognition. One day you will get a writer you enjoy.  For now other people, and a lot of them, are enjoying this run.

----------


## Frontier

> Yeah, it was a cute scene and since the work is tied to Miller's Year One it can't be helped, but I will never not hate "Uncle Jim" with a fiery passion in general. One of the dumbest and most needless retcons ever.


Even the Long Halloween animated film just had him as his older daughter.

----------


## John Venus

> Yeah, it was a cute scene and since the work is tied to Miller's Year One it can't be helped, but I will never not hate "Uncle Jim" with a fiery passion in general. One of the dumbest and most needless retcons ever.


It wasn't retcon for the sake of retcon. 

Miller didn't include Babs in YO because writers can't do math and assumed she would be born sometime between YO  and present day. The only work around was to make Babs Gordon's niece which is better than no Babs at all.

----------


## Frontier

> It wasn't retcon for the sake of retcon. 
> 
> Miller didn't include Babs in YO because writers can't do math and assumed she would be born sometime between YO  and present day. The only work around was to make Babs Gordon's niece which is better than no Babs at all.


One good thing to come out of the New 52 at least.

----------


## Restingvoice

> It wasn't retcon for the sake of retcon. 
> 
> Miller didn't include Babs in YO because writers can't do math and assumed she would be born sometime between YO  and present day. The only work around was to make Babs Gordon's niece which is better than no Babs at all.


Wait
Seriously
That's why
Just say she's in a boarding school in Chicago

----------


## Aahz

> Wait
> Seriously
> That's why
> Just say she's in a boarding school in Chicago


That wouldn't really have made sense with how the Gordons were written in Year One. Based on that story James Jr. was their first kid.

----------


## Restingvoice

> That wouldn't really have made sense with how the Gordons were written in Year One. Based on that story James Jr. was their first kid.


I wanted to say that maybe because I know Barbara always exist, that's never my impression reading Batman Year One... but now that I think back to when I first read it, I thought James Jr. is the big brother.

----------


## MakeNightwingGreatAgain

> Dick's doing pretty well in other media too. With Titans getting a 4th season and Gotham Knights coming. Now if he can just get some traction on that movie. 
> 
> But ya, even Marvel wouldn't be pushing Nightwing like they do Iron Heart or Ms. Marvel. Nor would he be have his own concrete mythos. As what Marvel did with those characters is use the mythos of others to help introduce them to increase their diversity profile of characters. Signal would be an example DC trying to do this.


I think if Nightwing was introduced now in Marvel, they would be pushing him. But if he were with Marvel, he would have been in the same spot as Iron Man back in the day (Nightwing has been in the same spot as iron man for longer than iron man). WB needs to do what Disney did with Iron Man and pluck Nightwing out of obscurity and bring him to the light again. But WB sucks at branding and likes to rely on name recognition than building it up.

Dont give your hopes up for a movie! The director mentioned the main reason why Dick Grayson in name cant have his own solo movie right now is partly because Matt Reeves wants to use him in The Batman. So we might be getting Dick as young Robin in reeves batverse. Idk how much movies they will be able to do though! Itll take awhile for Dick to go from Robin to Nightwing. Id say around 4-5 (first 3 as Robin and last two as Nightwing and lead into Nightwing solo) movies would be needed and Im ok with that tbh. Also another issue is that Dick/Nightwing is being used in Titan Live Action. So I think in maybe 10 or so years we might actually get a Nightwing solo if everything pans out correctly.

Technically, Nightwing exists in Batman Beyond. So we might get a mention with him in Michael Keatons Batman Beyond character.

----------


## Restingvoice

Robin in Batman fits if they're doing Batgirl Year One movie

----------


## Frontier

> Robin in Batman fits if they're doing Batgirl Year One movie


I think we're getting some weird continuity hijinks where Keaton is an older, retired, Batman in Batgirl and probably post-any Robin. 

Robin has a better chance of being in an animated Batgirl: Year One.

----------


## Restingvoice

> I think we're getting some weird continuity hijinks where Keaton is an older, retired, Batman in Batgirl and probably post-any Robin. 
> 
> Robin has a better chance of being in an animated Batgirl: Year One.


It was already confirmed Keaton? Then maybe it's not Batgirl Year One but Batgirl Wanted since their references are Simone's run mainly

----------


## Frontier

> It was already confirmed Keaton? Then maybe it's not Batgirl Year One but Batgirl Wanted since their references are Simone's run mainly


I think they're mixing Year One and Simone's New 52 run.

----------


## MakeNightwingGreatAgain

> Robin in Batman fits if they're doing Batgirl Year One movie


Well itd be weird because Batgirl is older in her movie. I heard a source say she is 19, but then another source said she is the same age as the actress who is 27. So if we did get Dick in DCEU, hed likely not be with Batgirl outside of maybe talking sometimes. The issue with this is that Batfleck still exists now even if they are replacing him with Michael Keaton Batman Beyond. Dick Grayson is confirmed dead in Snyderverse (confirmed in Snyder cut) and Dick would be way older in the Batman Keaton since that Batman is supposed to be 60-70 (and lol is in the same universe as BTAS and Killing Joke). The rumor is that Terry is gonna be cast and act as a robin like character until replacing Keaton as Batman. I believe Matt Reeves is doing his own universe with Batman (its year two Batman) this Dick will be super duper young like I mentioned.

Its weird because if the rumor of Keaton being in Batgirl movie is true, then Batgirl should also be significantly older but I guess WB is doing a combo of her year one/Simone run so they are probably just retconning babs in Batman Beyond universe. I think she might be librarian/political minded babs in the movies (which leads me to believe Jason Bard might be her love interest). But again its just speculation. 

WB kinda screwed Dick somewhat when it comes to his possible DCEU appearance. The timeline is extremely odd and combine that with Snyderverse shenanigans and Keaton Batman, it creates a mess lol. Perhaps flashpoint will do a good job retconning and fixing but it seems like all they are gonna do is just replace Batfleck and just bring unite the HBO universe with DCEU truthfully. Jason Todd is rumored to have a movie in the same universe as Batgirl (with a possible tie in to Nightwing but idk if that is true). But someone mentioned that Jason also might be getting a live action spin off with titans which is why its unlikely DCEU can use him in a movie.

I think I would rather want Nightwing in Matt Reeves version anyhow. It has that neon-tech noir vibe from the trailer and I think Dick would work well with that. Im not sure if Matt wants to do the entire batfam, but I do know he is keen on the Batman and Robin duo.

----------


## Restingvoice

Wait what? If Keaton is Batman Beyond (good choice) why would he be in Batgirl?




> At least 18, as his pre-Flashpoint solo book is back in continuity.


You know what, Tim _is_ at least 18, not because his whole story is back in continuity, but because he got that sexy Robins workout variant cover, which they wouldn't approve if he's still a minor, just like how Damian is left out.

----------


## Frontier

> Wait what? If Keaton is Batman Beyond (good choice) why would he be in Batgirl?


I think after Flashpoint in The Flash movie he replaces Affleck as the universes Batman.

----------


## Rac7d*

> I think after Flashpoint in The Flash movie he replaces Affleck as the universes Batman.


we cant get that movie fast enough, 

but batgirl is being fast-tracked so soon, I dont know if there will be time to save Robin

----------


## Restingvoice

> I think after Flashpoint in The Flash movie he replaces Affleck as the universes Batman.


for flash sake do they have to make everything complicated

well if Nightwing is set in the same uni as Batgirl, as in no-longer-Snyderverse then he would be older

Dick died only in Snyder Cut. In WB cut it's Jason, since they're also planning to make a Red Hood movie that ties to Nightwing

So yeah Dick has to be an adult.

----------


## AmiMizuno

But wouldn't dick be older than babs since Keaton is like in his 77. 

In the new animated universe movie how do you guys think they will introduce Dick Grayson 

Also Young Justice will have AMA in their subreddit 

However, in some sources in sounds like Red hood and Nightwing crossover happens after the Nightwing movie already happened. I don't want him in the Batgirl movie. Both are too big. A cameo sure but not a supporting or majority appearance.

----------


## John Venus

> In the new animated universe movie how do you guys think they will introduce Dick Grayson


They'll probably do an adaptation of Dark Victory, Robin Year One or Batman Chronicles: The Gauntlet.  

I'm hoping for that last one.

----------


## MakeNightwingGreatAgain

> for flash sake do they have to make everything complicated
> 
> well if Nightwing is set in the same uni as Batgirl, as in no-longer-Snyderverse then he would be older
> 
> Dick died only in Snyder Cut. In WB cut it's Jason, since they're also planning to make a Red Hood movie that ties to Nightwing
> 
> So yeah Dick has to be an adult.


It's because they want to get rid of Snyder-Batman. Matt Reeves has dibs currently on Dick Grayson. The Batman with Pattinson was supposed to be Batfleck but was changed. It's now its own thing and because of that, DCEU has no choice but to use Batman Beyond universe because it would be the only universe that isn't taken. Dick in batman beyond is technically an adult, but he is only mentioned, never really seen. Batgirl should be a grown adult too. But Batgirl is aged down for obvious reasons. It's likely that we don't see Dick Grayson in DCEU unless either DCEU is able to use the character concurrently with Reeves or Reeves ends up not using him at all.  Because another problem is the Titans' live action, which uses Dick Grayson as well in a leading role. Its gonna be a huge mess.

----------


## AmiMizuno

> It's because they want to get rid of Snyder-Batman. Matt Reeves has dibs currently on Dick Grayson. The Batman with Pattinson was supposed to be Batfleck but was changed. It's now its own thing and because of that, DCEU has no choice but to use Batman Beyond universe because it would be the only universe that isn't taken. Dick in batman beyond is technically an adult, but he is only mentioned, never really seen. Batgirl should be a grown adult too. But Batgirl is aged down for obvious reasons. It's likely that we don't see Dick Grayson in DCEU unless either DCEU is able to use the character concurrently with Reeves or Reeves ends up not using him at all.  Because another problem is the Titans' live action, which uses Dick Grayson as well in a leading role. Its gonna be a huge mess.



The only other thing is that Nigthwing is it's own universe for now. If flashpoint works the same than some of the things that happened in some of the universes will be cannon to the main but overall they most likely be kept the multiverse

Do you guys think that flashpoint will causes all these new multiverses to be true or if things go well each will still be in it's own universe?

----------


## John Venus

> One good thing to come out of the New 52 at least.


Meh, they could have fixed it with Infinite Crisis or Zero Hour. They chose not to.  




> Wait
> Seriously
> That's why
> Just say she's in a boarding school in Chicago


Wouldn't have fit with Year One. Why would Gordon send Barbara away and not mention her at all in YO when he spent of it agonizing over raising a wife and child in Gotham?  

If I had to fix it, I would have just said that Gordon thought Babs died in Chicago and that prompted him to move to Gotham. He later learns that she is alive and brings her with him to Gotham.

----------


## Frontier

> Meh, they could have fixed it with Infinite Crisis or Zero Hour. They chose not to.


Still have to give some credit to the New 52 then  :Stick Out Tongue: .

----------


## Restingvoice

> It's because they want to get rid of Snyder-Batman. Matt Reeves has dibs currently on Dick Grayson. The Batman with Pattinson was supposed to be Batfleck but was changed. It's now its own thing and because of that, DCEU has no choice but to use Batman Beyond universe because it would be the only universe that isn't taken. Dick in batman beyond is technically an adult, but he is only mentioned, never really seen. Batgirl should be a grown adult too. But Batgirl is aged down for obvious reasons. It's likely that we don't see Dick Grayson in DCEU unless either DCEU is able to use the character concurrently with Reeves or Reeves ends up not using him at all.  Because another problem is the Titans' live action, which uses Dick Grayson as well in a leading role. Its gonna be a huge mess.


Wait if it's Matt Reeves he's gonna be young. So who said they're making Red Hood connecting to Nightwing?




> Still have to give some credit to the New 52 then .


Oh they're already made her the daughter in Robin Batgirl Year One, and if that doesn't count, Black Mirror

----------


## Frontier

> Oh they're already made her the daughter in Robin Batgirl Year One, and if that doesn't count, Black Mirror


I think they mentioned the niece thing in Black Mirror when Babs was explaining her exact relationship to James Jr.

Of course we can't forget the tidbit that Babs might be Jim's biological daughter from an affair with his brothers' wife.

----------


## Konja7

> Oh they're already made her the daughter in Robin Batgirl Year One, and if that doesn't count, Black Mirror


I'm pretty sure Barbara wasn't Jim's biological daughter in Black Mirror. 

In Black Mirror, we even see James Jr's mother in that comic, whose name is Barbara, but she isn't Barbara's mother.

----------


## SiegePerilous02

Jim, Barbara, Jim Jr, and Barbara.

My, what an imaginative bunch comic book writers are. If Barbara has to have a brother at all, I never got what was wrong with his pre-Crisis name, Anthony

----------


## Aahz

> I'm pretty sure Barbara wasn't Jim's biological daughter in Black Mirror. 
> 
> In Black Mirror, we even see James Jr's mother in that comic, whose name is Barbara, but she isn't Barbara's mother.


Black Mirror does anyway not work with Year One and the other pre crisis origin stories, Jim Jr. is way to old in that story. Logically he could not older than Tim Drake if you keep these comics canon.

----------


## John Venus

Yep. He would have to be a teen at least.   

It sucks that they turned him into a villain, Barbara having a little bro is awesome and having him be a villain also taints one of Bruce's purest rescues. Such a needlessly cynical change.  

If you really want Gordon to have a psychopathic son then bring back Tony Gordon as the lost oldest sibling. Just say he was born two years before Barbara.

----------


## Frontier

> Jim, Barbara, Jim Jr, and Barbara.
> 
> My, what an imaginative bunch comic book writers are. If Barbara has to have a brother at all, I never got what was wrong with his pre-Crisis name, Anthony


I think in the Long Halloween movie Jim just called Babs "Babs" which is probably to differentiate her from her mom.

----------


## SiegePerilous02

> I think in the Long Halloween movie Jim just called Babs "Babs" which is probably to differentiate her from her mom.


Wasn't her pre-Crisis name Thelma?

And I never really understood the trend of giving your kids your name in general. If I ever become a parent, that would never even occur to me.

----------


## John Venus

> Wasn't her pre-Crisis name Thelma?


Thelma Gordon was named as Barbara Gordon's mother and  in Who's Who: The Definitive Directory of the DC Universe #2 (April, 1985). However, this is not mentioned in canon, Post Crisis, once Barbara became Gordon's niece, her biological parents were identified as Roger Gordon and Thelma Gordon.  In Gotham Knights, Devin Grayson tried to imply that Gordon had an affair with Thelma and Jim might indeed be her biological father but it was left ambiguous and nobody really picked up on it.    

The first time a Mrs Gordon appeared was in 1951's 'World's Finest' #53 but the character didn't have a name.    

Then in 1981's Batman #500 'To Kill A Legend', Alan Brennert created 'Barbara Kean Gordon'. This was picked up by writers like Barbara Randall Kessel and Frank Miller who used her as Gordon's wife and Barbara Gordon's adoptive mother.  Then after Nu52, she became Babs biological mother as she was always meant to be.   

Source:   

https://bleedingcool.com/comics/alan...barbara-keane/

https://www.dccomics.com/blog/2019/0...irls-come-from

https://dc.fandom.com/wiki/Thelma_Gordon_(New_Earth)

https://dc.fandom.com/wiki/Thelma_Gordon_(Earth-One)




> And I never really understood the trend of giving your kids your name in general. If I ever become a parent, that would never even occur to me.


I don't mind it. It creates a sense of legacy and continuity.   

Barbara Eileen Kean --> Barbara Gordon  

Jim Gordon  -- > Jim Gordon Jr  

Dinah Drake Lance --> Dinah Laurel Lance   

Shayera Thal -- > Shayera Thal

----------


## Restingvoice

Oh I thought Barbara Eileen and Barbara Kean are different

----------


## Digifiend

> Yeah, I'd say Tim is either 18 or 19 now. 
> 
> In Urban Legends #4, the first part of "Sum of Our Parts," Oracle makes a comment about Ivy Town University not working out for Tim, but he'll find his path. 
> 
> So unless they're trying to go with a genius/graduated early take, it seems Tim should be old enough to go to college, but made the decision not to do so right now.


He was supposed to go to Ivy Town at the end of Tynion's Detective Comics, but he detoured and reunited Young Justice instead. As published, he was meant to be 16 at the time, so it's the genius route. However, the Robin anniversary special last year retconned Tim as being "not 20 yet" in a story set just before that Tec run. That would imply he was 18 even before Death Metal.




> I think if he was 18, they would have mentioned that by now, to me it looks like he is still supposed to be 16 or 17.
> 
> And pre-flashpoint seems to be only partly back in the continuity. It is of course hard to bring examples for Tim since he doesn't really has book at the moment, but look at Nightwing for example. In his current series they make references to stuff that happened back in his pre flashpoint series, but it is also pretty clear that not everything from this run is back in continuity since for example Blüdheaven is not a nuclear wasteland, the apartment building Dick is still now living in again does still exist and blockbuster is still alive.


True, but keeping nuked Bludhaven would contradict Nightwing's Rebirth run. So exceptions like that had to happen.




> All of them? Which parts have they mentioned in any books after Death Metal? Like for example what about Stephanie's role?


Bernard, for one thing. He doesn't even exist in New 52.




> You know what, Tim _is_ at least 18, not because his whole story is back in continuity, but because he got that sexy Robins workout variant cover, which they wouldn't approve if he's still a minor, just like how Damian is left out.


We haven't seen the variants for issues 5 and 6 of Robins yet. Issues 1-4 are the other Robins in order, so Damian's should be issue 5's. He just won't be sexualised, maybe he'll have a tracksuit on or something.




> Wasn't her pre-Crisis name Thelma?
> 
> And I never really understood the trend of giving your kids your name in general. If I ever become a parent, that would never even occur to me.


My brother's middle name is my Dad's first name. It works that way (apparently came in handy as only one set of nametags, with first initial and surname, was needed for clothes when we were at school). But I agree, same name is quite dumb. What about when you get mail? I sometimes get post with my surname and first initial - that initial being the same as my brother's - if only they used either the full first name or our middle initials (which are different), I wouldn't accidentally open his stuff!

----------


## Lal

Nightwing sold really well this month and is ranked in place #26 on icv2 best-selling list - 
https://icv2.com/articles/markets/vi...s-october-2021

It's possible a lot of Babs fans bought this issue for the Batgirl content. Anyway, haters that called to boycott Nightwing don't really influence sales.
It seems like other Gotham books like UL, Catwoman or Harley didn't make it to the top 50 list even though they are tie-ins. I am Batman barely made it to the list by issue #2, and is ranked in place 50.

----------


## Rac7d*

> Nightwing sold really well this month and is ranked in place #26 on icv2 best-selling list - 
> https://icv2.com/articles/markets/vi...s-october-2021
> 
> It's possible a lot of Babs fans bought this issue for the Batgirl content. Anyway, haters that called to boycott Nightwing don't really influence sales.
> It seems like other Gotham books like UL, Catwoman or Harley didn't make it to the top 50 list even though they are tie-ins. I am Batman barely made it to the list by issue #2, and is ranked in place 50.


We have a solid team and direction

----------


## The World

> Nightwing sold really well this month and is ranked in place #26 on icv2 best-selling list - 
> https://icv2.com/articles/markets/vi...s-october-2021
> 
> It's possible a lot of Babs fans bought this issue for the Batgirl content. Anyway, haters that called to boycott Nightwing don't really influence sales.
> It seems like other Gotham books like UL, Catwoman or Harley didn't make it to the top 50 list even though they are tie-ins. I am Batman barely made it to the list by issue #2, and is ranked in place 50.


God that top 50 is depressing. Just Batman, Spiderman, and X-Men for the most part; the absolute state of the market right now.

----------


## Fergus

> Nightwing sold really well this month and is ranked in place #26 on icv2 best-selling list - 
> https://icv2.com/articles/markets/vi...s-october-2021
> 
> It's possible a lot of Babs fans bought this issue for the Batgirl content. Anyway, haters that called to boycott Nightwing don't really influence sales.
> It seems like other Gotham books like UL, Catwoman or Harley didn't make it to the top 50 list even though they are tie-ins. I am Batman barely made it to the list by issue #2, and is ranked in place 50.


This doesn't seem right. Robin isn't on here yet it has better numbers than most of the dc comics on here like SOK and Strange Adventures. 

It's usually 2 spots down from Nightwing in the other charts

----------


## Digifiend

That chart is out way too soon. Are any fourth week (October 26) comics on there?

----------


## Lal

> This doesn't seem right. Robin isn't on here yet it has better numbers than most of the dc comics on here like SOK and Strange Adventures. 
> 
> It's usually 2 spots down from Nightwing in the other charts


In August Robin was close to Nightwing on comichorn, but it was also the issue with all the previous Robins. 

Anyway, the lists are a bit different- I don't think Robin was on icv2 best selling list for a while now.

The list does include the 4th week of the month- both Task force z and DC vs vampires are there.

----------


## Lal

Nightwing is going to have a 22 pages story by writer Tini Howard in Urban Legends 10 - 
https://www.dccomics.com/blog/2021/1...ring-tim-drake

----------


## Rac7d*

> Nightwing is going to have a 22 pages story by writer Tini Howard in Urban Legends 10 - 
> https://www.dccomics.com/blog/2021/1...ring-tim-drake


That cover with him and the other batgirls makes sense

----------


## Claude

> Nightwing is going to have a 22 pages story by writer Tini Howard in Urban Legends 10 - 
> https://www.dccomics.com/blog/2021/1...ring-tim-drake


Tim's story apparently sees him helping "Batman and Nightwing" in the Fear State aftermath, so presumably Dick has a small role in that story too.

Good end of the year for Dick - Robin and Batman next week, then Titans United, the regular Nightwing issue, an Annual, and guest star status in the Tec annual this month alone!

----------


## AmiMizuno

That's good but I want him to have a black label. It seems that's not going to happen.

----------


## Restingvoice

> Nightwing is going to have a 22 pages story by writer Tini Howard in Urban Legends 10 - 
> https://www.dccomics.com/blog/2021/1...ring-tim-drake


Oh someone remembers Tusk. No one remembers he should have no tusks now though.

----------


## Rac7d*

> Oh someone remembers Tusk. No one remembers he should have no tusks now though.


Damian got the other one lol

----------


## Frontier

> Oh someone remembers Tusk. No one remembers he should have no tusks now though.


He looks like discount Blockbuster.

----------


## MakeNightwingGreatAgain

> Nightwing sold really well this month and is ranked in place #26 on icv2 best-selling list - 
> https://icv2.com/articles/markets/vi...s-october-2021
> 
> It's possible a lot of Babs fans bought this issue for the Batgirl content. Anyway, haters that called to boycott Nightwing don't really influence sales.
> It seems like other Gotham books like UL, Catwoman or Harley didn't make it to the top 50 list even though they are tie-ins. I am Batman barely made it to the list by issue #2, and is ranked in place 50.


Definately odd. Youd think that the fear state issues would see similar numbers. Normally cross overs start good and trend down, but it appears its starting down and trending up? I think it was definately influenced by the Batgirls fans. Because Nightwing leads up to the events that will happen in the Batgirls book. So if you want to know the backstory to Batgirls, you have to read Nightwing. It kinda fudges the numbers, but hey Nightwing got a little boost but the negative thing is that the boost might be artificial and give the wrong message.

I didnt see many people boycotting the issue. On ICV2 Nightwing has been hovering around the 30-34k mark for a while since Taylor took over so I dont think the boycott did much.

----------


## Rac7d*

> Definately odd. You’d think that the fear state issues would see similar numbers. Normally cross overs start good and trend down, but it appears it’s starting down and trending up? I think it was definately influenced by the Batgirls fans. Because Nightwing leads up to the events that will happen in the Batgirls book. So if you want to know the backstory to Batgirls, you have to read Nightwing. It kinda fudges the numbers, but hey Nightwing got a little boost but the negative thing is that the boost might be artificial and give the wrong message.
> 
> I didn’t see many people boycotting the issue. On ICV2 Nightwing has been hovering around the 30-34k mark for a while since Taylor took over so I don’t think the boycott did much.


What boycotts?

----------


## WonderNight

> What boycotts?


I think he's talking about the Oracle fans boycotting because babs is batgirl in this event.

----------


## Vordan

> Nightwing is going to have a 22 pages story by writer Tini Howard in Urban Legends 10 - 
> https://www.dccomics.com/blog/2021/1...ring-tim-drake


Ugh Tini? Haven’t enjoyed anything of hers over at Marvel

----------


## Godlike13

Remember these charts can’t tack DC data that well anymore, especially reorders, which the first issue of tie-ins usually see. With the second issue though they now have a better idea of what they need to initially order. More then likely the first tie in issue did more or less the same numbers if not better.

----------


## Ameerha

> I think he's talking about the Oracle fans boycotting because babs is batgirl in this event.


"Oracle fans" 
More like salty Cass fans .....

----------


## WonderNight

> "Oracle fans" 
> More like salty Cass fans .....


I don't know, I don't keep up with that stuff. Just going by what I here. Basically Oracle fans don't want babs as batgirl, Cassandra fans don't want that and maybe steph fan also? I don't know.

----------


## Godlike13

Those Oracle "fans" don't want Oracle. They just want to virtue signal. For whatever reason. That issue was the most Oracle issue ive read in a long time. The claims of boycott is just more disingenuous bullshit, they're not buying anything anyway. Just more of the same old bullshit. Where are they when they do do something with Oracle. Putting her in the Batgirl suit is the least of Babs problems right now. How about how every other book has made Oracle nothing more then the Bat family's secretary. Being in the Batgirl suit is offensive, but being support to Batgirl is ok. 
And here's the thing, the issue would have been better if wasn't a Batgirl suit she had to get into but instead just went out as Oracle. Cause the issue was about her as Oracle. Its entire point was about Oracle and that journey. But no one shows up to support Oracle, no one seems to care about getting Oracle out of this supporting box they have the role buried in, so they have to put her in a new Batgirl suit to get anyone to care or have Babs do anything away from a desktop.

----------


## Rac7d*

> I think he's talking about the Oracle fans boycotting because babs is batgirl in this event.


They arent boycotting they were always pirates 
The first ones to have an issue to discuss on Twitter before most stores open
Their sales were never part of the equation

----------


## MakeNightwingGreatAgain

> Those Oracle "fans" don't want Oracle. They just want to virtue signal. For whatever reason. That issue was the most Oracle issue ive read in a long time. The claims of boycott is just more disingenuous bullshit, they're not buying anything anyway. Just more of the same old bullshit. Where are they when they do do something with Oracle. Putting her in the Batgirl suit is the least of Babs problems right now. How about how every other book has made Oracle nothing more then the Bat family's secretary. Being in the Batgirl suit is offensive, but being support to Batgirl is ok. 
> And here's the thing, the issue would have been better if wasn't a Batgirl suit she had to get into but instead just went out as Oracle. Cause the issue was about her as Oracle. Its entire point was about Oracle and that journey. But no one shows up to support Oracle, no one seems to care about getting Oracle out of this supporting box they have the role buried in, so they have to put her in a new Batgirl suit to get anyone to care or have Babs do anything away from a desktop.


I agree! Its the same thing with Dick babs too. They only support Dick dating oracle to use as a way to say hey hot dude dating girl in wheel chair than actually enjoying their relationship. Both Nightwing and Batgirl are used a lot of the time to basically yell at writers for not including their political or social ideologies. The only time these people are satisfied is when characters act as their soapbox. Its incredibly annoying as well when they say Oracle is the best version of babs when Barbara was an incredibly independent, upbeat, over achieving adult woman who was happily engaged before the retcons. Oracle was peak Babs not the best babs has ever been.

----------


## MakeNightwingGreatAgain

> What boycotts?


So lots of babs fans are upset for two reasons. The first reason is actually valid in that they are mad that Babs is once again reduced to being a side character to Nightwing rather than being her own thing and her being with Nightwing devalues her. The second reason makes 100% zero sense. Basically calling Tom Taylor ableist because he mentioned Babs being oracle and some of the things she did to make herself walk again while still being Batgirl. They basically got on their soap box demanding repersentation for the disabled. When you think about it, its kinda funny how they rarely mention the fact that Dick has been disabled as well but no one bats an eye at that fact. Its all about Babs being in a wheelchair. 

Personally, it shouldnt matter whether babs is in a wheelchair or not in the same way it shouldnt matter if dick is Batman or Nightwing. The character should still be doing the same things and experiencing life the same way. Babs can be a great computer expert as Oracle and as Batgirl. It shouldnt matter the title she uses. It also goes to show how people use Nightwing comic as a way to complain about other characters when its not even their book. Like GG to you guys for turning Nightwing comic into a conversation that is not even about his character.

----------


## Rac7d*

> So lots of babs fans are upset for two reasons. *The first reason is actually valid in that they are mad that Babs is once again reduced to being a side character* to Nightwing rather than being her own thing and her being with Nightwing devalues her. The second reason makes 100% zero sense. Basically calling Tom Taylor ableist because he mentioned Babs being oracle and some of the things she did to make herself walk again while still being Batgirl. They basically got on their soap box demanding repersentation for the disabled. When you think about it, it’s kinda funny how they rarely mention the fact that Dick has been disabled as well but no one bats an eye at that fact. It’s all about Babs being in a wheelchair. 
> 
> Personally, it shouldn’t matter whether babs is in a wheelchair or not in the same way it shouldn’t matter if dick is Batman or Nightwing. The character should still be doing the same things and experiencing life the same way. Babs can be a great computer expert as Oracle and as Batgirl. It shouldn’t matter the title she uses. It also goes to show how people use Nightwing comic as a way to complain about other characters when it’s not even their book. Like GG to you guys for turning Nightwing comic into a conversation that is not even about his character.


She is not a side character to anyone. Yes she a supporting regulars in the current  Nightwing run. She is also reoccurring in Batman and makes frequent appearance in all bat titles. She is the eye and ear to most of the major heroes and organization in the DCUNIVERSE.  She is currently stepping back from field work which is why her own solo had ended. She is about resume a serious relation with dick so of course she would be featured heavily in his book, the last issue took place from her point of view. And you can bet Dick will likely be reoccurring in batgirls where she will be a lead, just as he often made appearances in her Birds of Prey run. Barbra Gordon has had her own solo book for the last Decade, would people rather see her vanish then assisting nightwing ?   what makes the pair so great is that they can seamlessly crossover into each other lives but also achieve great thing on their own.

Arrow 8 seasons and main relationship was literally the dickbabs template.

anyway, their boycotts is useless, nightwing remains a hot top seller among a majority of DCs line . Taylor is safe to write up to issue 100 if he so chooses too

----------


## Iclifton

> So lots of babs fans are upset for two reasons. The first reason is actually valid in that they are mad that Babs is once again reduced to being a side character to Nightwing rather than being her own thing and her being with Nightwing devalues her. The second reason makes 100% zero sense. Basically calling Tom Taylor ableist because he mentioned Babs being oracle and some of the things she did to make herself walk again while still being Batgirl. They basically got on their soap box demanding repersentation for the disabled. When you think about it, its kinda funny how they rarely mention the fact that Dick has been disabled as well but no one bats an eye at that fact. Its all about Babs being in a wheelchair. 
> 
> Personally, it shouldnt matter whether babs is in a wheelchair or not in the same way it shouldnt matter if dick is Batman or Nightwing. The character should still be doing the same things and experiencing life the same way. Babs can be a great computer expert as Oracle and as Batgirl. It shouldnt matter the title she uses. It also goes to show how people use Nightwing comic as a way to complain about other characters when its not even their book. Like GG to you guys for turning Nightwing comic into a conversation that is not even about his character.


I mean she is a side character yes, but not a sidekick. Nightwing is obviously going to be the main character in his own book. Pretty unrealistic expectation to think different. She will also be a main character in the Batgirls books and appears in Batman. Should solo books not use use other heroes as side characters?

The unreasonable expectations and thought process of fans really blow my mind.

----------


## Drako

From the Annual.

----------


## Restingvoice

> So lots of babs fans are upset for two reasons. The first reason is actually valid in that they are mad that Babs is once again reduced to being a side character to Nightwing rather than being her own thing and her being with Nightwing devalues her. The second reason makes 100% zero sense. Basically calling Tom Taylor ableist because he mentioned Babs being oracle and some of the things she did to make herself walk again while still being Batgirl. They basically got on their soap box demanding repersentation for the disabled. When you think about it, its kinda funny how they rarely mention the fact that Dick has been disabled as well but no one bats an eye at that fact. Its all about Babs being in a wheelchair. 
> 
> Personally, it shouldnt matter whether babs is in a wheelchair or not in the same way it shouldnt matter if dick is Batman or Nightwing. The character should still be doing the same things and experiencing life the same way. Babs can be a great computer expert as Oracle and as Batgirl. It shouldnt matter the title she uses. It also goes to show how people use Nightwing comic as a way to complain about other characters when its not even their book. Like GG to you guys for turning Nightwing comic into a conversation that is not even about his character.


I'm the other way around. I think it's not valid asking Babs to not be a side character when it's not her book, and it's valid to ask for actually disabled Oracle because there's no heroes in a wheelchair anymore, aside from other things readers miss after New 52

If that's what people wish for and they're boycotting since the start of New 52, I'm fine with that. That's how they should do it anyway, speak with your money, and maybe gather more people who agree so that loss of money becomes significant. It's gonna take a while though, since the decision to keep Barbara Batgirl even after Didio's gone probably has to do with WB synergy. 

As for Dick, nobody caring about his amnesia due to it being brought upon by a hater is normal.

----------


## Rac7d*

> From the Annual.


this is the retcon period where nightwing didn't hate and ignore jason?

----------


## Rac7d*

> I'm the other way around. I think it's not valid asking Babs to not be a side character when it's not her book, and it's valid to ask for actually disabled Oracle because there's no heroes in a wheelchair anymore, aside from other things readers miss after New 52
> 
> If that's what people wish for and they're boycotting since the start of New 52, I'm fine with that. That's how they should do it anyway, speak with your money, and maybe gather more people who agree so that loss of money becomes significant. It's gonna take a while though, since the decision to keep Barbara Batgirl even after Didio's gone probably has to do with WB synergy. 
> 
> As for Dick, nobody caring about his amnesia due to it being brought upon by a hater is normal.


boycotting = Harassing writers who not only did not cuase character status but dont have the power to change it because the character is owned by corporation

----------


## Konja7

> boycotting = Harassing writers who not only did not cuase character status but dont have the power to change it because the character is owned by corporation


That isn't the meaning of boycotting. 

That said, although I see that many unfairly criticize and complain that Tom Taylor promotes his book with Batgirl, I haven't seen much harassment to him.

----------


## Lal

> this is the retcon period where nightwing didn't hate and ignore jason?


From all the Robins, Dick is undoubtedly the one who best accepted his successor (and overall being replaced as Robin) although he's the one who actually created Robin. 
Jason and Tim at least knew it became a mantle and could assume that one day they would be replaced.

But overall it seems that some insecurity or jealousy was definitely there at the beginning of their relationship so far (Dick's towards Jason as he was adopted, Jason who felt he couldn't measure up).

----------


## Lal

Just noticed this - 

cian tormey.jpg

Is Cian Tormey doing anything else on Nightwing but the annual?

----------


## Aahz

> From all the Robins, Dick is undoubtedly the one who best accepted his successor (and overall being replaced as Robin) although he's the one who actually created Robin. 
> Jason and Tim at least knew it became a mantle and could assume that one day they would be replaced.
> 
> But overall it seems that some insecurity or jealousy was definitely there at the beginning of their relationship so far (Dick's towards Jason as he was adopted, Jason who felt he couldn't measure up).


Dick is also the only one who was allready an adult and had moved on from the role when he got "replaced".

Appart from that Jason and Dick barely interacted. In pre and post crisis he also appeared once in the in the Batman comics to give Jason his ok as Robin. And the two times Jason teamed up with the Titans Dick was not with the team for most of the story.
They doing anything together beyond this is a retcon.

----------


## Lal

> Dick is also the only one who was allready an adult and had moved on from the role when he got "replaced".
> 
> Appart from that Jason and Dick barely interacted. In pre and post crisis he also appeared once in the in the Batman comics to give Jason his ok as Robin. And the two times Jason teamed up with the Titans Dick was not with the team for most of the story.
> They doing anything together beyond this is a retcon.


In main continuity now Dick was fired from being Robin, as we see in Nightwing 79, and we know the Robin mantle was later given to Jason (who was younger and less experienced), so even if he moved on to be Nightwing, he was still nonetheless replaced.

I also don't have a problem with stories about Dick and Jason as Nightwing and Robin. Even if there weren't previous stories about them interacting it really doesn't mean they never interacted during this time, unless it was explicitly stated.

----------


## Aahz

> In main continuity now Dick was fired from being Robin, as we see in Nightwing 79, and we know the Robin mantle was later given to Jason (who was younger and less experienced), so even if he moved on to be Nightwing, he was still nonetheless replaced.


Not in the original Pre Crisis version.

The original Post crisis version is a little bit tricky, since it was a retroactive change that was never really addressed in Teen Titans (Dicks main book at the time).

In the Version of Nightwing Year One, Dick was fired, but he had allready become Nightwing at the time Jason became Robin.

And everyting published post Flashpoint is anway pretty wanky continuity wise.




> I also don't have a problem with stories about Dick and Jason as Nightwing and Robin. Even if there weren't previous stories about them interacting it really doesn't mean they never interacted during this time, unless it was explicitly stated.


But at least Dick showing up in Gotham was not a regular thing at the time, since he and Bruce were on pretty bad terms.
And if you compare it with Tim, he got way more team ups with Dick early in his career.

----------


## dietrich

> That isn't the meaning of boycotting. 
> 
> That said, although I see that many unfairly criticize and complain that Tom Taylor promotes his book with Batgirl, I haven't seen much harassment to him.


I've seen some disrespect and name calling on Taylors twitter feed and they are also harassing fans. Posts [signal boosted] declaring anyone whose tumbr/blogs feature pictures/art of Babs as batgirl are bad people who support ableism and disability erasure.

That's bullying/intimidation. Fans should be able to enjoy what they like on their own personal blogs. These people are weaponizing ism's for their own selfish reasons. Tom Taylor didn't make the call to have Babs as batgirl. He is simply writing a book.

Babs as Bat girl isn't disability erasure or DC and fans hating disabled people. 

Heck they are even complaining about Babs in the Batgirls back up and series. They just want Bab's out because they want their favourite as the main Batgirl period.

----------


## dietrich

> In August Robin was close to Nightwing on comichorn, but it was also the issue with all the previous Robins. 
> 
> Anyway, the lists are a bit different- I don't think Robin was on icv2 best selling list for a while now.
> 
> The list does include the 4th week of the month- both Task force z and DC vs vampires are there.


Not just the issue with the Robins. All issues of Robin have been close to Nightwing on the charts [usually the next Dc title following Nightwing on those charts. Robin has  never shown up on the icv best selling list which is strange.

----------


## dietrich

> That's good but I want him to have a black label. It seems that's not going to happen.


I want that Snyder Dick Grayson black Label we were promised. I know Snyder still has some upcoming DC project. Finger crossed.

----------


## Lal

> Not just the issue with the Robins. All issues of Robin have been close to Nightwing on the charts [usually the next Dc title following Nightwing on those charts. Robin has  never shown up on the icv best selling list which is strange.


Well, based on Comichorn in June Nightwing was in place 36 and Robin was in place 50, and in July Nightwing was in place 28 and Robin was in place 50, so there was a difference between their sales ranking. 

But it's noteworthy that the ICV2 list is based on a sample of 100 shops, that aren't a real random sample of comics shops.

----------


## Konja7

> Not just the issue with the Robins. All issues of Robin have been close to Nightwing on the charts [usually the next Dc title following Nightwing on those charts. Robin has  never shown up on the icv best selling list which is strange.


It isn't so strange. Nightwing has a tie-in for Fear State, so it's pretty common that the sales are higher.

----------


## Journey

What is the age gap between Dick & Jason? 6, 4 years?

----------


## MakeNightwingGreatAgain

> That isn't the meaning of boycotting. 
> 
> That said, although I see that many unfairly criticize and complain that Tom Taylor promotes his book with Batgirl, I haven't seen much harassment to him.


Ehh not sure what you mean here, but Taylor is definately hyping up batgirl and side characters more than Nightwing himself.

At the end of the day, in the same way the complains against Tom Taylor are valid, the support for him is valid. Taylor isnt the first writer to go through this so the big hoopla about it on his end on social media is really just stirring the pot just to stir it. Sometimes I do wish writers would just do their work, promo and use a private account to voice their opinion on fandoms.

----------


## Restingvoice

> What is the age gap between Dick & Jason? 6, 4 years?


Pre and Post Crisis it's approximately 7 years
New 52 it's approximately 3 years

----------


## Hypo

Annual Preview

----------


## Konja7

> Ehh not sure what you mean here, but Taylor is definately hyping up batgirl and side characters more than Nightwing himself.


I wanted to say that I've seen a lot of unfair criticism towards Taylor in Twitter (it should be pretty normal that he promotes the new Batgirl suit), but I haven't seen so much harassment towards him.

English isn't my main language, so maybe I wasn't clear.

----------


## Restingvoice

FDiAb6YVUAgxfYx.jpg
Taylor's script layout

----------


## Rac7d*



----------


## Frontier

> 


Is that supposed to be Dick and Jason?

----------


## Rac7d*

> Is that supposed to be Dick and Jason?


from the upcoming annual

----------


## Lady Nightwing

Robin and Batman was fantastic, nothing momentous happened, it's just setting the groundwork but it was really, really well executed. I haven't been this excited for the next issue of a comic since Grayson

----------


## Lal

> Robin and Batman was fantastic, nothing momentous happened, it's just setting the groundwork but it was really, really well executed. I haven't been this excited for the next issue of a comic since Grayson


I agree. 

We actually had 3 different books with Dick today - Robin & Batman, Robins, and Titans united (there were actually 4 if we include FS Gotham, and he also had a cameo in UL), but Robin & Batman was by far the best. 
The first issue was great.

----------


## HsssH

Yeah, it was about as good as you could expect from this creative team. The panel where Batman appears first time was amazing, could have easily been a full page shot for me.

----------


## Rac7d*

his pre uniform reminded me of zero year

----------


## Drako

by Dexter Soy.

----------


## Frontier

> by Dexter Soy.


Those red eyes...

----------


## Restingvoice

Those proportion

By the way the coloring for the single continuous image for a single issue of Nightwing #87 is done


Also, in Titans United, Lady Vic is now referred to having Kiera Knightley accent instead of Jane Seymour. Makes sense. More recent and known. I've heard of Jane Seymour but never watched anything about her and even if I did, I would've forgotten about it since I was a wee baby in the 90s. The current gen was barely even a thought.

----------


## Claude

Robin And Batman was excellent - I'd love Lemire and Nguyen to do a sequel or two, but otherwise this feels like the first Black Label book that could actually be the kind of "evergreen" story they were promoted as.

(I actually quite liked Three Jokers by the end, but everyone stopped caring about it almost instantly.)

Robins 2 was more fun than Robins 1 - but if I was picking it up for any of the other characters, I might feel shortchanged. Dick so far is coming off much better than the others.

----------


## Vordan

Robin and Batman was great, Croc having ties to Dick’s old life at the circus is a fun way of tying the two together. Curious to see where that relationship is going to go.

----------


## Frontier

> Robin and Batman was great, Croc having ties to Dick’s old life at the circus is a fun way of tying the two together. Curious to see where that relationship is going to go.


Now that I think about it, I remember Croc being in Nightwing: Year One and...not Robin: Year One? I feel like he's had some kind of thing with Robins like Two-Face.

----------


## Zaresh

> Now that I think about it, I remember Croc being in Nightwing: Year One and...not Robin: Year One? I feel like he's had some kind of thing with Robins like Two-Face.


The funny thing is, Croc had to do with the circus... but regarding pre-crisis Jason's parents. He was blackmailing their circus, and killed them when they tried to stop him by following his criminal moves (croc was just a man with some condition back then).

I find it kind of ironic, to be honest.

----------


## Digifiend

> Robins 2 was more fun than Robins 1 - but if I was picking it up for any of the other characters, I might feel shortchanged. Dick so far is coming off much better than the others.


Makes sense considering who's writing it.

----------


## Frontier

> The funny thing is, Croc had to do with the circus... but regarding pre-crisis Jason's parents. He was blackmailing their circus, and killed them when they tried to stop him by following his criminal moves (croc was just a man with some condition back then).
> 
> I find it kind of ironic, to be honest.


I forget Jason was basically a Dick mimic when he was first introduced.

----------


## Iclifton

Between Robin and Batman and Robins #2, I am really enjoying modern takes on Dick`s time as Robin. Wish we had more.

----------


## Vordan

> Between Robin and Batman and Robins #2, I am really enjoying modern takes on Dick`s time as Robin. Wish we had more.


How’s Robins? Seeley has disappointed me with his _Superman vs. Lobo_ book and the artist for Robins didn’t look appealing to me at all.

----------


## Iclifton

> Hows Robins? Seeley has disappointed me with his _Superman vs. Lobo_ book and the artist for Robins didnt look appealing to me at all.


Decent-good, worth reading if your a Nightwing fan. Art isnt great, but it has some cool moments

----------


## Vordan

> Decent-good, worth reading if your a Nightwing fan. Art isn’t great, but it has some cool moments


Why would they put such a lousy artist on a book like that? Decisions DC makes truly boggles the mind at times.

----------


## Rac7d*

> Why would they put such a lousy artist on a book like that? Decisions DC makes truly boggles the mind at times.


It goes to dcuniverse first

----------


## HsssH

Wouldn't that be an additional reason to have a good artist? I thought the idea was to get people to subscribe to DCUniverse.

----------


## Rac7d*

> Wouldn't that be an additional reason to have a good artist? I thought the idea was to get people to subscribe to DCUniverse.


If you subscribe to DC universe its for the access to the catalogues, not new books

----------


## Godlike13

This might be confusing, but they probably don’t think they are a lousy artist. It’s stylized. DC have far worse artists on books.

----------


## Claude

> This might be confusing, but they probably don’t think they are a lousy artist. It’s stylized. DC have far worse artists on books.


Yeah, I don't hate the art. 

It's also worth remembering this was a Round Robin winner - and an A List artist wouldn't have been able to carve out six issues worth of availability that might have come to nothing.

----------


## MakeNightwingGreatAgain

> I forget Jason was basically a Dick mimic when he was first introduced.


It’s funny because they always wanted Dick to stay as Robin but Wolfman taking over the character stumped editorial lmaooo it’s hilarious to see how Jason was literally Dick 2.0 at one point. It goes to show how little they actually care about any of the robins when they all not only look the same but but Dick and Tim got their major characterizations stolen by Damien and Jason lol. The only saving grace is that Tim gets recognized as Robin more in animated stuff and the games! Dick kinda floats around in limbo most times.

QUESTION: what direction do you think Taylor’s run is going in? For me I find it odd because the way it’s written it’s like Dick is gonna end the run by not being Nightwing anymore. I’m confused at how this run will lead into future state content haha. Becuse Dick in future state is like a completely 180 from Dick in the solo. Like do you see this leading to a huge character defining moment for Dick? Like do you really think this run will have Dick alongside Wonder Woman, Superman and Batman as a true A-List?

----------


## Claude

> Like do you really think this run will have Dick alongside Wonder Woman, Superman and Batman as a true A-List?


It'd be nice to think so, but with Fear State taking over the book for three issues directly after the intro arc it's hard to get a feel yet - Taylor's made some comments about Going Big with Dick in the wider DCU, but nothing's come of them yet. But! I got wondering.

Both Taylor and Josh Williamson have talked about keeping in touch about their titles, in a way that suggests some eventual crossover. Which could just be a Supersons thing, crossover between Damian and Jon or something. But this Bleeding Cool article suggests that Williamson is building up to an Event in his "Robin" and "Deathstroke" titles, as well as wondering if the Red X plot in Teen Titans Academy might also be building to it.

(The article mentions that Williamson isn't writing TTA, of course - but it doesn't mention that he was originally meant to. He wrote the Titans issues of Justice League/Death Metal immediately prior to it - and mentioned on a podcast some time that he just didn't have the time to the Infinite Frontier series. Sheridan has mentioned that he was writing a 12 issue story, with a "big change" for Nightwing at the end, so it's possible he was brought in with a remit to run the title until the start of Shadow War and to leave the characters in place for it.)

https://bleedingcool.com/comics/ras-...he-shadow-war/

Even if the Titans aren't involved, an event involving Damian and Deathstroke is one that Dick wouldn't be out of place in - he has history with both characters, and Damian not being involved in Fear State means there wouldn't be the repeated beats.

A Taylor/Williamson collaboration involving Nightwing, Damian, Deathstroke (and Jon Kent? There's a crossover coming there, definitely) could end up getting a bit of attention and going well for Dick.


Thin grounds for speculation, maybe - but we'll see if anything comes of it!

----------


## AmiMizuno

I wonder in 100 issues Tom said there is going to be a Surprise. Wonder what that will be.

----------


## Lal

> Its funny because they always wanted Dick to stay as Robin but Wolfman taking over the character stumped editorial lmaooo its hilarious to see how Jason was literally Dick 2.0 at one point. It goes to show how little they actually care about any of the robins when they all not only look the same but but Dick and Tim got their major characterizations stolen by Damien and Jason lol. The only saving grace is that Tim gets recognized as Robin more in animated stuff and the games! Dick kinda floats around in limbo most times.
> 
> QUESTION: what direction do you think Taylors run is going in? For me I find it odd because the way its written its like Dick is gonna end the run by not being Nightwing anymore. Im confused at how this run will lead into future state content haha. Becuse Dick in future state is like a completely 180 from Dick in the solo. Like do you see this leading to a huge character defining moment for Dick? Like do you really think this run will have Dick alongside Wonder Woman, Superman and Batman as a true A-List?


The future state is no longer continuity, but some kind of elseworld story, so it's unlikely Nightwing will be heading there.
I think we'll see the direction Nightwing is going only in 2-3 issues. We still need to wrap up the fear state tie-in.

So far TTA was kind of bad, but let's see what big change Sheridan prepared. Nightwing would also be in the Detective comics event, but I don't think we'll see something that would really change him there.

----------


## Restingvoice

> It'd be nice to think so, but with Fear State taking over the book for three issues directly after the intro arc it's hard to get a feel yet - Taylor's made some comments about Going Big with Dick in the wider DCU, but nothing's come of them yet. But! I got wondering.


If Taylor took a whole arc to establish how Bludhaven works this time, it's gonna take a while before reaching that point

The next arc is The Consequence of Announcing That You're a Good Billionaire with him getting targeted by the mafia and Heartless. We're only at the Rising Conflict of _this_ arc. Like not even Act 2 yet.

----------


## Rac7d*

> If Taylor took a whole arc to establish how Bludhaven works this time, it's gonna take a while before reaching that point
> 
> The next arc is The Consequence of Announcing That You're a Good Billionaire with him getting targeted by the mafia and Heartless. We're only at the Rising Conflict of _this_ arc. Like not even Act 2 yet.


AmHow many issues was the run from moving into Bludhaven to blockbusters death

----------


## Restingvoice

> AmHow many issues was the run from moving into Bludhaven to blockbusters death


Hang on

93

----------


## Rakiduam

> I wonder in 100 issues Tom said there is going to be a Surprise. Wonder what that will be.


So, no surprises until 100?....sounds super fun!

----------


## Lucas 35



----------


## Rac7d*

I'm just realizing the tumblr casual Titans artist is the same one doing these official books

----------


## Lady Nightwing

So, Robins #1 was available on Comixology in Europe yesterday. It wasn't as bad as my social media feed would lead me to believe but it wasn't as good as I'd hoped something from Tim Seeley would be. I'm at least interested in the "first" Robins origin, I'll probably stick it out.

----------


## Rac7d*

> So, Robins #1 was available on Comixology in Europe yesterday. It wasn't as bad as my social media feed would lead me to believe but it wasn't as good as I'd hoped something from Tim Seeley would be. I'm at least interested in the "first" Robins origin, I'll probably stick it out.


The bat family adventure shorts kind of made it underwhelming

----------


## Lady Nightwing

I love the Batfamily adventures, it's a lot of fun but I wouldn't want those sort of tumblr quirks to become a staple in the mainstream comics. I think that's part of the problem with Robins. Plus the dialogue was a bit ham fisted. Jason's temper tantrum at the table just kind of came out of nowhere, presumably, because he's the "angry" Robin. It's nothing major and I hope the next issue is a little stronger. I ordinarily love Seeleys work, so this fell a little flat for me  :Frown:

----------


## Vordan

> The bat family adventure shorts kind of made it underwhelming


Really annoying how they put Robins in a contest DC knew it would win over characters that have to fight for scraps, only to also have another project in dev that scratched the same itch for Batfamily interactions.

----------


## byrd156

> 


Damn this looks good.

----------


## Rac7d*

> Really annoying how they put Robins in a contest DC knew it would win over characters that have to fight for scraps, only to also have another project in dev that scratched the same itch for Batfamily interactions.


It only reinforces how powerful the brand is. I met the artist who would have been on the Kyle green lantern book at
Comci con

We may still see those other stories down the line

----------


## Fergus

> Damn this looks good.


The 1st issue was spectacular.

----------


## Godlike13

Well in the end this tie-in seemed to be a set up for Batgirls. It wasn't terrible, there was stuff for those who like to see the Bat family team up, but the first two issues were better. At least they had something to say about the characters.

----------


## Rac7d*

> Well in the end this tie-in seemed to be a set up for Batgirls. It wasn't terrible, there was stuff for those who like to see the Bat family team up, but the first two issues were better. At least they had something to say about the characters.


It’s over now and we can get back to our regular scheduled programming 

We even have a special with the annual in about a week

----------


## dropkickjake

Yeah, glad the crossover is done. Wasn't terrible or anything, but it wasn't fantastic either. Art was pretty rough in some spots as well. Also, I don't follow Cass too much as a character, but she felt a little too talkative for me in this.

----------


## Rac7d*

Night is not included in shadow of the bat right ?

----------


## Vordan

> Yeah, glad the crossover is done. Wasn't terrible or anything, but it wasn't fantastic either. Art was pretty rough in some spots as well. Also, I don't follow Cass too much as a character, but she felt a little too talkative for me in this.


Meh was basically how I felt finishing this issue. I hope they give it a rest with the tie-ins for a while.

----------


## Spideyvinnegar

> Night is not included in shadow of the bat right ?


He is

detective-comics-1047-cover-05~2.jpg

----------


## Claude

> Its over now and we can get back to our regular scheduled programming 
> 
> We even have a special with the annual in about a week


Yeah, this was fine - and I respected the way it was structured to be readable without the rest of Fear State - but I'm keen to continue with the _Nightwing_ plot now. I don't mind Barbara and Tim being part of it, but between them and Shadow Of The Bat - the _Nightwing_ title can stay out of Gotham for quite a while now as far as I'm concerned!

----------


## Rac7d*

> He is
> 
> detective-comics-1047-cover-05~2.jpg


Hopefully it leaves his book alone I need Nightwing to go back to being double shipped

----------


## Claude

You know, thinking about it, if Barbara is remaining a consistent presence in the _Nightwing_ title then....

[[spoiler for recent issue of The Joker]]

*spoilers:*
...now that it seems James Gordon Jr is back as a Talon, he's pretty well placed to be a mutual nemesis to both of them. They both have history with him - Barbara more than Dick, obviously, although Black Mirror looms large - and it gives the kind of "face" and personal connection to the Owls that's been lacking since Lincoln March for Bruce and William Cobb for Dick never really took off as individuals. Wonder if he'll turn up in the future - for better or worse, Tynion seems to have seen his role to be Johnny New-Character-Seed throwing out a load of stuff for other titles and writers to pick up on if wanted.
*end of spoilers*

----------


## Rac7d*

> You know, thinking about it, if Barbara is remaining a consistent presence in the _Nightwing_ title then....
> 
> [[spoiler for recent issue of The Joker]]
> 
> *spoilers:*
> ...now that it seems James Gordon Jr is back as a Talon, he's pretty well placed to be a mutual nemesis to both of them. They both have history with him - Barbara more than Dick, obviously, although Black Mirror looms large - and it gives the kind of "face" and personal connection to the Owls that's been lacking since Lincoln March for Bruce and William Cobb for Dick never really took off as individuals. Wonder if he'll turn up in the future - for better or worse, Tynion seems to have seen his role to be Johnny New-Character-Seed throwing out a load of stuff for other titles and writers to pick up on if wanted.
> *end of spoilers*


William Cobb is currently on the suicide squad he was on Dicks butt right before hi regained his memory
I wonder if its all happening in anticipation to Batman: Gotham Knights

----------


## Claude

> William Cobb is currently on the suicide squad he was on Dicks butt right before hi regained his memory
> I wonder if its all happening in anticipation to Batman: Gotham Knights


I forgot Cobb was on the Squad - lost interest in that title after the Teen Titans Academy crossover. He done anything interesting? 

Gotham Knights synergy is a good point - DC has never been averse to a bit of that! 

Do we know who's writing that, btw? Obvious Arkham Asylum and City had Paul Dini, and IIRC Scott Snyder worked on Arkham Knight... Anyone from comics in for GK?

----------


## Rac7d*

> I forgot Cobb was on the Squad - lost interest in that title after the Teen Titans Academy crossover. He done anything interesting? 
> 
> Gotham Knights synergy is a good point - DC has never been averse to a bit of that! 
> 
> Do we know who's writing that, btw? Obvious Arkham Asylum and City had Paul Dini, and IIRC Scott Snyder worked on Arkham Knight... Anyone from comics in for GK?


we dont even have a date for the game yet, but I'm sure we will get a mini once it arrives

----------


## Lady Nightwing

I read the latest Nightwing, it was very bland. Other than the romantic scenes with Babs, you could have literally just left Dick out of his own book. I'm glad the event tie ins are done for a bit.

----------


## Rac7d*

> I read the latest Nightwing, it was very bland. Other than the romantic scenes with Babs, you could have literally just left Dick out of his own book. I'm glad the event tie ins are done for a bit.


He made the best use of it he could honestly, its not like what was happening in batman was very intresting

----------


## AmiMizuno

Tom isn't selling me Dick as a-lister. He only is writing DickBab fanfic. For Babs is shining bright since Dick doesn't seem to know what to do. If they are in a relationship I bet Tom is just going to continue doing it. I mean this is why DickBabs shouldn't be center stage but in supporting arc

----------


## Lady Nightwing

> He made the best use of it he could honestly, its not like what was happening in batman was very intresting


I get that. You can't make a silk purse out of a sows ear and all that jazz. I'm just a little crabby about Nightwing getting derailed when it was finally picking up steam.

----------


## Ameerha

Yeah, this event killed Nightwings hype.

----------


## AmiMizuno

I hope Tom does indeed prove me wrong and it's just do to you now the first of his arc but this is also why Dick needs his own office. We can't always have him be in special events for the Batfam since he is a titan and his own hero. I would love for them to get a crossover with other heroes not just the Batfam. This is probably never going to happen but if they want a Batfam book just for events that would be better than ruining Nightwing's run for a Batevent. I would also love a crossover for other heroes not just Batfam. We have enough Batfam books but never a special Titan book or maybe him hanging out with Roy.

----------


## Vordan

> Yeah, this event killed Nightwings hype.


Hopefully not entirely but it definitely was a bore that derailed the book. Yet another pointless tie in for Nightwing that derailed his stories.

----------


## WonderNight

Off topic but with the success of the character in young justice I'm suprised that dc hasn't brought Artemis into the comics.

Her and dick are close in the show so I'd love if dc had her as nightwing's black cat/ catwoman in the comics.

----------


## Aahz

> I'm just a little crabby about Nightwing getting derailed when it was finally picking up steam.


Don't know the book was imo pretty slow paced before, and the next story arc about Dick's puppy getting kidnapped, also doesn't really sound like the most exciting plot ever.

----------


## Lady Nightwing

It was slow paced, I found that too but he had met his sister and just encountered Heartless face to face and then he just drops everything to go to Gotham. Presumably, Heartless is chilling in the pub waiting for him to get back.

I'm excited for the Haley arc. I love her. I'm more invested in this dog than I am his long lost sister or his rekindled love affair with Babs. I can recognise Haley for the sort of cheap gimmick she is but I still fell for it.

----------


## Rac7d*

> Off topic but with the success of the character in young justice I'm suprised that dc hasn't brought Artemis into the comics.
> 
> Her and dick are close in the show so I'd love if dc had her as nightwing's black cat/ catwoman in the comics.


She technically is just not the version we know
Tigress Artemis (archer) and sportsmaster are small potatoes in main continuity, and she does know wally which I fear has most of her fan appeal

----------


## Godlike13

> I hope Tom does indeed prove me wrong and it's just do to you now the first of his arc but this is also why Dick needs his own office. We can't always have him be in special events for the Batfam since he is a titan and his own hero. I would love for them to get a crossover with other heroes not just the Batfam. This is probably never going to happen but if they want a Batfam book just for events that would be better than ruining Nightwing's run for a Batevent. I would also love a crossover for other heroes not just Batfam. We have enough Batfam books but never a special Titan book or maybe him hanging out with Roy.


Why so they can have him job to Roy again, while he mocks him on a conceptual level, all so Roy can then ride off back into irrelevance. Dick's already in a Titans book. 2 actually.

----------


## Godlike13

> I get that. You can't make a silk purse out of a sows ear and all that jazz. I'm just a little crabby about Nightwing getting derailed when it was finally picking up steam.


Look at it this way, it gave Redondo time to show off. Which will probably get things rolling again.

----------


## Drako

> It was slow paced, I found that too but he had met his sister and just encountered Heartless face to face and then he just drops everything to go to Gotham. Presumably, Heartless is chilling in the pub waiting for him to get back.
> 
> I'm excited for the Haley arc. I love her. I'm more invested in this dog than I am his long lost sister or his rekindled love affair with Babs. I can recognise Haley for the sort of cheap gimmick she is but I still fell for it.


I'm pretty sure it's not an arc, it's just a one shot. That one with all the pages connected.
We'll see where the story will be going by tomorrow with the solicits. 

Meanwhile he looks to play a big part in the Shadow of the Bat arc.

----------


## Claude

> Meanwhile he looks to play a big part in the Shadow of the Bat arc.


Sounds like him, Batwoman and Huntress as the main drivers - which I might like more than him being Batman, if we're looking at a Bruce-less Gotham. The kind of collaboration that Bruce was never as good at - and Dick and Helena are always good together.

----------


## Avi

> Don't know the book was imo pretty slow paced before, and the next story arc about Dick's puppy getting kidnapped, also doesn't really sound like the most exciting plot ever.


It sounds like filler to me. Pretty disappointing that that's all someone can come up with for Dick.




> I'm pretty sure it's not an arc, it's just a one shot. That one with all the pages connected.
> We'll see where the story will be going by tomorrow with the solicits. 
> 
> Meanwhile he looks to play a big part in the Shadow of the Bat arc.


Nah, rescuing Haley isn't a one shot. It's already a two parter, maybe more.

----------


## Drako

> It sounds like filler to me. Pretty disappointing that that's all someone can come up with for Dick.
> 
> Nah, rescuing Haley isn't a one shot. It's already a two parter, maybe more.


They tried to kidnap the Haley in issue 87, but that's it. It's not a two parter.

NIGHTWING #88
Written by TOM TAYLOR
Art and cover by BRUNO REDONDO
Variant cover by JAMAL CAMPBELL
1:25 variant cover by BRUNO REDONDO
$3.99 US | 32 pages | $4.99 US Variant (Card Stock)
ON SALE 1/18/22

The blue stripes are back! Nightwing gets an updated suit starting this issue!

Meanwhile, *after the distressing events of rescuing Haley from getting dognapped by bad guys*, Nightwing discovers there are way more hits on Dick Grayson than he realized, thanks to going public about his fortune, and he needs to find a clever way to be Dick Grayson and Nightwing at the same time.

Meanwhile, Heartless tries to buy power away from Blockbuster in order to take control of Blüdhaven, and both of these big bads have Nightwing in their crosshairs.

----------


## Claude

> Nah, rescuing Haley isn't a one shot. It's already a two parter, maybe more.


Is it? Issue 87 is the one where people are trying to steal the dog, presumably as a hook to hang the "all in one image" action sequence off. Solicit for 88 starts "Meanwhile, after the distressing events of rescuing Haley...". So resolved by then, and used as a jumping off point for Dick realising he has a target on his back. 

Seems fine, if not the most exciting thing in the world in principle.

Eta: Snap!

----------


## Iclifton

> I hope Tom does indeed prove me wrong and it's just do to you now the first of his arc but this is also why Dick needs his own office. We can't always have him be in special events for the Batfam since he is a titan and his own hero. I would love for them to get a crossover with other heroes not just the Batfam. This is probably never going to happen but if they want a Batfam book just for events that would be better than ruining Nightwing's run for a Batevent. I would also love a crossover for other heroes not just Batfam. We have enough Batfam books but never a special Titan book or maybe him hanging out with Roy.


Bro, he will never get his own office. Wonder Woman does not have her own office.

----------


## Frontier

Dick finally gets a line in Young Justice today.

----------


## Rac7d*

> Yeah, this event killed Nightwings hype.


Can you prove it?

----------


## Pohzee

> Can you prove it?


Yeah. I stopped buying it.

----------


## Iclifton

> Yeah. I stopped buying it.


Well then it must be true.

Thanks Fear State, this run is doomed.

----------


## Spideyvinnegar

> Dick finally gets a line in Young Justice today.


Props to his VA I know it was just a few lines but both his and Babs VA did a real good job, you can literally sense though his voice all the fear and despair Dick is trying to hide

----------


## Frontier

> Props to his VA I know it was just a few lines but both his and Babs VA did a real good job, you can literally sense though his voice all the fear and despair Dick is trying to hide


Just kind of made it funnier in hindsight when he had no lines during the episode where they deal with Conner's "death"  :Stick Out Tongue: .

----------


## HsssH

> You know, thinking about it, if Barbara is remaining a consistent presence in the _Nightwing_ title then....
> 
> [[spoiler for recent issue of The Joker]]
> 
> *spoilers:*
> ...now that it seems James Gordon Jr is back as a Talon, he's pretty well placed to be a mutual nemesis to both of them. They both have history with him - Barbara more than Dick, obviously, although Black Mirror looms large - and it gives the kind of "face" and personal connection to the Owls that's been lacking since Lincoln March for Bruce and William Cobb for Dick never really took off as individuals. Wonder if he'll turn up in the future - for better or worse, Tynion seems to have seen his role to be Johnny New-Character-Seed throwing out a load of stuff for other titles and writers to pick up on if wanted.
> *end of spoilers*


*spoilers:*
Do people care more about James Gordon Jr. than about Lincoln or Cobb? To me they are on the same level of uninteresting, I'd probable even pull Cobb ahead of those two a bit as far as relevancy goes.
*end of spoilers*

----------


## Godlike13

Well Black Mirror was better then anything done with the other two and Dick. But he's fallen since then. No doubt.

----------


## Twice-named

Nightwing #89 solicit and covers.  Sorry it’s small. Screenshot is from my phone. 

2A45DF14-B256-474A-977B-BAB9F33864F5.jpg

----------


## JackJustMetMartin

> Nightwing #89 solicit and covers.  Sorry it’s small. Screenshot is from my phone. 
> 
> 2A45DF14-B256-474A-977B-BAB9F33864F5.jpg


Where's this from?

----------


## Twice-named

> Where's this from?


DC Connect #19 on DC Universe Infinite

----------


## Badou

> Nightwing #89 solicit and covers.  Sorry it’s small. Screenshot is from my phone. 
> 
> 2A45DF14-B256-474A-977B-BAB9F33864F5.jpg


If Jon was still a kid this would have been a lot more interesting. Since Dick never interacted with kid Jon. You could play around with themes of Dick helping to mentor a young kid the way Superman did for him when he was a kid starting his hero journey, but that doesn't really work as well when Jon is nearly an adult now and already acting as Superman. They kind of missed their window to tell this story properly and I just have zero interest in Dick interacting with current Jon.

----------


## Claude

> *spoilers:*
> Do people care more about James Gordon Jr. than about Lincoln or Cobb? To me they are on the same level of uninteresting, I'd probable even pull Cobb ahead of those two a bit as far as relevancy goes.
> *end of spoilers*


*spoilers:*
Anecdotally, I'd say JGJr was more popular - but I can't back that up by science! Feels like he's had more and better-received appearances, too - a bigger role in Black Mirror under Snyder than Cobb had in Court Of Owls, and returns in Simone's very popular _Batgirl_ run and _Batman Eternal_ as well as more recently. I dropped _Nightwing_ during the Ric era so can't speak to Cobb there specifically, but otherwise he doesn't really have a lot of personality, does he? 
*end of spoilers*




> If Jon was still a kid this would have been a lot more interesting. Since Dick never interacted with kid Jon. You could play around with themes of Dick helping to mentor a young kid the way Superman did for him when he was a kid starting his hero journey, but that doesn't really work as well when Jon is nearly an adult now and already acting as Superman. They kind of missed their window to tell this story properly and I just have zero interest in Dick interacting with current Jon.


Taylor's not averse to a flashback or two, and there's no reason to think that Dick hasn't met Jon before I don't think?

But I dunno, Dick meeting Cute Kid Jon and a cover where they're sat on a pier eating ice cream and Dick ruffles his hair and is impressed with his precociousness but also hands done some wisdom about having fun and believing in yourself wouldn't have been a fun way to spend twenty pages!

(Kid Jon really bugged me, for my money he's currently the most interesting he's ever been - but I made my peace with the fact I liked Bendis on Superman more than many on this forum a while back!)

Interestingly that the solict and the current status quo has Jon as a "Nightwing" mirror rather than a "Robin" one - that really is a good way to connect Dick and Clark, with so much of the Golden and Silver ages out of both fashion and continuity it's a good hook to show them being close. 

Plus, first crossover outside the Bat Family! At last!

----------


## Godlike13

> If Jon was still a kid this would have been a lot more interesting. Since Dick never interacted with kid Jon. You could play around with themes of Dick helping to mentor a young kid the way Superman did for him when he was a kid starting his hero journey, but that doesn't really work as well when Jon is nearly an adult now and already acting as Superman. They kind of missed their window to tell this story properly and I just have zero interest in Dick interacting with current Jon.


Ya, i get this is technically something. Jon is the new Superman, and this meeting is one that should have happened years ago even its not happening in an ideal form. So on paper i get what they are trying to sell here. But personally im just not interested in Jon anymore now that he's an adult. I really do not like that they aged him, it took all the appeal of the character away for me. They cheated us out of actually getting to experience him growing and becoming who he now is. Dick is pretty much the ultimate representation of that. What would make this have meaning is lost, as Dick represents a journey they robbed Jon and readers of. He's a faux mirror next to Dick.

----------


## Rac7d*

> *spoilers:*
> Do people care more about James Gordon Jr. than about Lincoln or Cobb? To me they are on the same level of uninteresting, I'd probable even pull Cobb ahead of those two a bit as far as relevancy goes.
> *end of spoilers*


they are uninteresting until someone makes them so

----------


## Rac7d*

> Ya, i get this is technically something. Jon is the new Superman, and this meeting is one that should have happened years ago even its not happening in an ideal form. But personally im just not interested in Jon anymore now that he's an adult. I really do not like that they aged him, *it took all the appeal of the character away for me. They cheated us out of actually getting to experience him growing and becoming who he now is*. Dick is pretty much the ultimate representation of that. What would make this have meaning is lost, as Dick represents a journey they robbed Jon and readers of. He's a faux mirror next to Dick.


I agree with you here
But there is no going back, and someone has to build a personality over the the empty slate that is Jon. Dick might be the start to that. I'm sure he will tell some embarrassing Damian stories, Jon will open up to him. I can't help but give it a chance in taylor's hands.  The one trait from kid jon to present that is still there is his optimism, and that something dick grayson has in abundance.

----------


## Claude

Taylor's just tweeted that the crossover "begins" in February's Nightwing issue - so we're looking at something bigger than a one-and-done. 

https://mobile.twitter.com/TomTaylor...04708041555968

----------


## Lal

> Taylor's just tweeted that the crossover "begins" in February's Nightwing issue - so we're looking at something bigger than a one-and-done. 
> 
> https://mobile.twitter.com/TomTaylor...04708041555968


Well, it's a crossover, so it would continue in Jon's following issue. Do you think it means more?
The symbols of Nightwing and Superman are also cut in half, so it seems like a two part story with a connecting cover.

----------


## Claude

> Well, it's a crossover, so it would continue in Jon's following issue. Do you think it means more?


Not especially! With Dick not in that month's issue of Son Of Kal-El, and the solicit not mentioning a plot behind "Dick and Jon meet", I wondered if it just might have been a one issue guest spot. 

Of course, part of that is that I'd missed that Jon's book is scheduled to come out before Dicks that month - which would explain it!

----------


## Rac7d*

> Well, it's a crossover, so it would continue in Jon's following issue. Do you think it means more?
> The symbols of Nightwing and Superman are also cut in half, so it seems like a two part story with a connecting cover.


I guess we will see, whatever it is will be brief, Superman has always checked in on Dick and visited  bludhaven from time to time
but he could never be reoccurring for obvious reason  Jon's issue that month seems to be one with Jackson Hyde tho

----------


## HsssH

I'm all in for characters not related to Batfam appearing in Nightwing, but considering how slow things are going and that this "crossover" is supposedly only the beginning... when all this Heartless, lost sister and Blockbuster stuff will get resolved?

----------


## Rac7d*

> I'm all in for characters not related to Batfam appearing in Nightwing, but considering how slow things are going and that this "crossover" is supposedly only the beginning... when all this Heartless, lost sister and Blockbuster stuff will get resolved?


In dixons run Blockbuster was an antagonists throughout 93 issues. In that time, He was able to establish a city a supporting cast, a rouge gallery  with plenty of smaller arcs and team ups inbetween. So who's to say how long a villain will stay, why do people want stories to be resolved so quickly. this run only started 6 issues ago

----------


## Spideyvinnegar

one of my few theories on what could be the "huge surprise" on #100 was a sups crossover event but we're getting it a lot earlier huh

----------


## Drako

https://www.comixology.com/comics-best-sellers

----------


## Rac7d*

> https://www.comixology.com/comics-best-sellers


Good for taylor

----------


## HsssH

> *In dixons run Blockbuster was an antagonists throughout 93 issues*. In that time, He was able to establish a city a supporting cast, a rouge gallery  with plenty of smaller arcs and team ups inbetween. So who's to say how long a villain will stay, why do people want stories to be resolved so quickly. this run only started 6 issues ago


Yes, so we don't need another 20 issues setting up Blockbuster.

----------


## Rac7d*

> Yes, so we don't need another 20 issues setting up Blockbuster.


not everyone read the first nightwing series so who does the WE include

----------


## Drako



----------


## Frontier

> Nightwing #89 solicit and covers.  Sorry its small. Screenshot is from my phone. 
> 
> Attachment 115654


I get the Taylor connection, but kind of odd that we get a Dick/Jon crossover before a Damian/Jon crossover.

----------


## Rac7d*

> I get the Taylor connection, but kind of odd that we get a Dick/Jon crossover before a Damian/Jon crossover.


Did you forger the 3 sets of supersons
or the Superman/Robin Special out next january



they were together in the first issue too

----------


## Spideyvinnegar

> 


Pretty interesting, that part about heartless got me excited to see more of him
Also I like how he doesn't go into details about dickbabs current status but teases about their relationship having changed/stepped up a bit, makes me excited to see what he got in store for them and Haley bringing Dick and Babs together lol dickbabs dog parents confirmed

----------


## Frontier

> Did you forger the 3 sets of supersons
> or the Superman/Robin Special out next january
> 
> 
> 
> they were together in the first issue too


So I did. 

(Not Timms' best Damian work).

----------


## Drako

https://www.gamesradar.com/dc-comics...solicitations/

DETECTIVE COMICS #1052
Written by MARIKO TAMAKI
Art by MAX RAYNOR
Backup written by MATTHEW ROSENBERG
Backup art by FERNANDO BLANCO
Cover by IRVIN RODRIGUEZ
Variant by LEE BERMEJO
1:25 variant by JORGE FORNÉS
$4.99 US | 40 pages | Variant $5.99 US (Card stock)
ON SALE 2/8/22

"His hold is breaking!" That's the message written in blood across the minds of Arkham Tower's inhabitants, after a nightmare melee is unleashed! With Gotham's deadliest criminals reverting to their former, murderous selves in one horrific night, Dr. Wear has a lot of explaining to do…and a lot of covering up to perform. Can *Nightwing* get to the bottom of this mystery before the people of Arkham Tower are put in peril again?
Plus, Batman's iron grip on Gotham is enough to drive the desperate to madness…and madness is on the mind of the Boy in part six of "House of Gotham." When an average night at coat check at the Iceberg Lounge turns into a violent battle royal between the Dark Knight and the Penguin, lines are blurred, people are hurt, and the Boy's descent into a life of crime deepens…

DETECTIVE COMICS #1053
Written by MARIKO TAMAKI
Art by MAX RAYNOR
Backup written by MATTHEW ROSENBERG
Backup art by FERNANDO BLANCO
Cover by IRVIN RODRIGUEZ
Variant by LEE BERMEJO
1:25 variant by JORGE FORNÉS
$4.99 US | 40 pages | Variant $5.99 US (Card stock)
ON SALE 2/15/22

War in the streets! As Dr. Wear desperately tries to keep his plans for Arkham Tower from crumbling, a major drug deal gone bad puts the nervous doc in the sights of both the Party Crashers and the Penguin! The list of people very badly wanting to kill Dr. Wear grows, and Nightwing is on the precipice of cracking the whole scheme wide open! But with the maniacal Party Crashers waging war against the Bat-Family across Gotham, Dick must choose between helping a tower full of villains and helping his family!
Then, it's Knightfall in Gotham during part seven of "House of Gotham," as the Boy (growing into a man before our eyes) runs afoul of an uber-violent, unhinged Azrael Batman! This latest conflict pushes Gotham's most vulnerable into madness, and one man's rogues gallery reveals itself as another man's salvation.

DETECTIVE COMICS #1054
Written by MARIKO TAMAKI
Art by MAX RAYNOR
Backup written by MATTHEW ROSENBERG
Backup art by FERNANDO BLANCO
Cover by IRVIN RODRIGUEZ
Variant by LEE BERMEJO
1:25 variant by JORGE FORNÉS
$4.99 US | 40 pages | Variant $5.99 US (Card stock)
ON SALE 2/22/22

It's Nightwing versus Psycho-Pirate in the grand finale of "Shadows of the Bat" act two of three! As Gotham's elite gather to celebrate the formal opening of Arkham Tower, Dr. Wear's secret weapon is more unhinged than ever, and the storm clouds of disaster gather above the city's monument to reform! The Party Crashers, the Bat-Family, Penguin's forces, and a tower full of innocent civilians and villainous patients converge in the chapter you'll need to see to believe! Spoiler alert: not everyone makes it out alive!
Every story has two sides, and as much as Batman has reached out his hand through the darkness to try to help the Boy, there are too many hands in the shadows of Gotham pulling in the other direction. The finale of act two of "House of Gotham" poses a stark choice: Live with the family you know, or betray everything you've learned to be true?

NIGHTWING #89
Written by TOM TAYLOR
Art and cover by BRUNO REDONDO
Variant cover by JAMAL CAMPBELL
1:25 variant cover by BENGAL
$3.99 US | 32 pages | $4.99 US Variant (Card Stock)
ON SALE 2/15/22

Superman/Nightwing crossover! Years ago,when Robin took his first uncertain steps away from Batman as his own hero, Superman stepped in and offered Dick Grayson crucial advice, support, and a name: Nightwing. Now it's time for Nightwing to return the favor. To be concluded in Superman: Son of Kal-El #9 in March!

ROBINS #4
Written by TIM SEELEY
Art and cover by BALDEMAR RIVAS
Variant cover by JEN BARTEL
$3.99 US | 32 pages | 4 of 6 | $4.99 US Variant (Card Stock)
ON SALE 2/15/22

The Robins are splintered after the events in the graveyard. On their own and on the hunt for the distributor of the SKP Tech, the former sidekicks are on the warpath, tearing through Gotham and Blüdhaven following any and all leads. But while the Robins descend on the criminal underworld, where has Tim Drake disappeared to?

TEEN TITANS ACADEMY #12
Written by TIM SHERIDAN
Art by MIKE NORTON
Cover by RAFA SANDOVAL
Variant cover by FICO OSSIO
$3.99 US | 32 pages | $4.99 US Variant (Card Stock)
ON SALE 2/22/22

It's all come down to this! As their lives are literally tumbling down around them, the Titans must contend with the betrayal of their most troubled student—who has just unmasked themselves as Red X—plus a familiar face from deep in their darkest days, determined to exact an unholy vengeance upon Nightwing. In the end, after the epic collision of past, present, and future, who and what of Teen Titans Academy will still be standing?

----------


## Rac7d*

> https://www.gamesradar.com/dc-comics...solicitations/
> 
> DETECTIVE COMICS #1052
> Written by MARIKO TAMAKI
> Art by MAX RAYNOR
> Backup written by MATTHEW ROSENBERG
> Backup art by FERNANDO BLANCO
> Cover by IRVIN RODRIGUEZ
> Variant by LEE BERMEJO
> ...


Its sounds like titans academy will be over after 12

----------


## Claude

> Its sounds like titans academy will be over after 12


I wonder if the Mike Norton _Titans_ project carries on from/replaces it?

(Or it's something mostly unrelated that has the Titans in for a few pages.)

----------


## Pohzee

That's a lot of Nightwing in these solicits. Nice to see him take center stage in Tec and Titans without interfering with his solo.

----------


## Restingvoice

The other half of the Nightwing Jon Kent crossover cover would be in Superman Son of Kal-El in March then

----------


## Morgoth

> I get the Taylor connection, but kind of odd that we get a Dick/Jon crossover before a Damian/Jon crossover.


Williamson and Taylor hinted that they're planning it.

----------


## Frontier

> Williamson and Taylor hinted that they're planning it.


Looking forward to it  :Smile: .

----------


## Drako

Dan Mora's Nightwing is something else. I just got my new avatar!

----------


## AmiMizuno

I'm curious how do you guys feel about some artists going for the more definition child but many times they make him look like Bruce. Must have Dick inbetween this babyface and somewhat definition chin

----------


## Aahz

So about the  plot in Nightwing taking up steam, the next issue will be the one with the one continuos image gimmick, the one after is marked with him getting a the finger stripes back and the issue after that is the Jon Kent crossover ...

----------


## Vordan

> Its sounds like titans academy will be over after 12


Sheridan will be done, but I think he says the book will continue. Doesn’t say final issue in the solicit.

----------


## Lal

> Sheridan will be done, but I think he says the book will continue. Doesn’t say final issue in the solicit.


Sheridan already tweeted about an issue following issue 12, so it seems there would be at least 13 issues. 
It's unclear yet if he'll write this issue or not.
Personally, I don't have a problem with the academy setting, I just want a different writer that loves tha Titans. Maybe even The Flash writer.

----------


## Spideyvinnegar

Kinda random but after reading that synopsis for and seeing the cover for nightwing #88 gotta say I'm a little bit afraid we'll be getting some dickbabs very low quality angst with Dick wondering if he should stay with Babs now his civilian identity is a target, hope I'm wrong and tom actually knows the character a lot better than this, even tho Barbara is still recovering she's still oracle, nobody's messing with her that easy
anyway that thought just crossed around my mind and I don't really think taylor would do that

----------


## Frontier

> Dan Mora's Nightwing is something else. I just got my new avatar!


Good choice  :Smile: .

----------


## Micael

Question. Is Dick already in his 30's?

----------


## AJpyro

Is Nightwing by Dixon a Good Grayson entry or should i go for NTT?

----------


## Vordan

> Question. Is Dick already in his 30's?


No, mid 20s at best I think. Can’t really put a number on anyone’s age however.

----------


## SiegePerilous02

> Is Nightwing by Dixon a Good Grayson entry or should i go for NTT?


It depends on how you feel about reading older comics. The NTT run is definitely dated in how it is written, but it's more memorable and historically important than Dixon's Bat-stuff in general.


If you can get past some of the stilted writing (which gets better as it goes along) I'd recommend NTT in a heartbeat.

----------


## Rac7d*

> No, mid 20s at best I think. Can’t really put a number on anyone’s age however.


He cannot be in his mid 20s  that makes Jason and Tim to young
He’s gotta be 27-28

Always remember you need to subtract 4 years because Damon who we met at 10 is now 14

----------


## Superboy-Prime

> He cannot be in his mid 20s  that makes Jason and Tim to young
> He’s gotta be 27-28
> 
> Always remember you need to subtract 4 years because Damon who we met at 10 is now 14


So you think Tim Drake is 21 right now?

----------


## Rac7d*

> So you think Tim Drake is 21 right now?


He should be by now i know they keep drawing him like he is 12 somtimes

----------


## Micael

If Damian is currently 14 no way Dick is only in his mid 20's. Wasn't he already in college when Bruce first met Talia and Ra's? Also with all his history for him to be that young is almost as worse as pretending Bruce is in his mid 30's.

----------


## Rac7d*

> If Damian is currently 14 no way Dick is only in his mid 20's. Wasn't he already in college when Bruce first met Talia and Ra's? Also with all his history for him to be that young is almost as worse as pretending Bruce is in his mid 30's.


Two of his best friends have children who are about 10 years old late 20s sound about right for his group

----------


## Claude

Have we heard any more about that Mark Waid and Dan Mora _World's Finest_ Batman/Superman series that's supposed to be coming? With Waid's sensibilities and the style of Mora's art in the character design sheet, I'm hoping it's a "classic" version a little like Gene Leung Yang's run - but in continuity. Dick as Robin, Lois not aware of the secret identity etc.

It would be nice to follow Lemire's "difficult early start" story of Dick and Bruce with something a bit more Glory Days!

----------


## Frontier

> Have we heard any more about that Mark Waid and Dan Mora _World's Finest_ Batman/Superman series that's supposed to be coming? With Waid's sensibilities and the style of Mora's art in the character design sheet, I'm hoping it's a "classic" version a little like Gene Leung Yang's run - but in continuity. Dick as Robin, Lois not aware of the secret identity etc.
> 
> It would be nice to follow Lemire's "difficult early start" story of Dick and Bruce with something a bit more Glory Days!


No, but I'm really curious to see what they do with it.

----------


## Restingvoice

> Question. Is Dick already in his 30's?


He would be 30 if we're using Post Crisis approximate age plus all the canon time passage since then, but the timeline is a bit unclear on everyone's current age except Damian




> If Damian is currently 14 no way Dick is only in his mid 20's. Wasn't he already in college when Bruce first met Talia and Ra's? Also with all his history for him to be that young is almost as worse as pretending Bruce is in his mid 30's.


Even the college thing had to be automatically pulled back. When Damian arrived at 10 years old, Tim was already 17 (aged down to 16 in New 52), and Tim met Dick when he was 13, at the time Dick already dropped out of college for 2 years at least, and he was only in college for a year at most.




> Two of his best friends have children who are about 10 years old late 20s sound about right for his group


and now Lian seems about Damian's age

----------


## Lady Nightwing

I think the ages are intentionally left vague, I imagine Dick is supposed to be late 20s but it looks like Tim, Stephanie and Cass are a lot younger than 21. They look and act like teenagers,in Urban Legends and the Batgirls preview. Tim seems almost like 16-17, which seems nuts now that Damian is 14.

----------


## Lal

> I think the ages are intentionally left vague, I imagine Dick is supposed to be late 20s but it looks like Tim, Stephanie and Cass are a lot younger than 21. They look and act like teenagers,in Urban Legends and the Batgirls preview. Tim seems almost like 16-17, which seems nuts now that Damian is 14.


Steph and Cass were both confirmed to be teenagers in the solicitation of Urban legends 5 - 
"Batgirls: Cassandra Cain and Stephanie Brown are just two *teenagers* breaking into Wayne Manor so they can play some video games. But when Oracle gives them a mission, the Batgirls suit up and head to an abandoned arcade to investigate."

----------


## Aahz

> If Damian is currently 14 no way Dick is only in his mid 20's. Wasn't he already in college when Bruce first met Talia and Ra's? Also with all his history for him to be that young is almost as worse as pretending Bruce is in his mid 30's.


If you stick with when Ras and Thalia actually appeard the first time in the comics, allready Damian being 10 years old by the time he became Robin wouldn't really work with the time line.
If you keep that and have Damian age to 14 Dick Buce would have to be in his mid to late 40, Dick and Barbra in their early to mid 30s, and Cass, Jason, Steph and Tim in their mid 20s.

If you go with the ages the characters had right before Flashpoint and have Damian age up to 14, Bruce would have to be in his mid 40s, Dick arround 30, and Cass, Jason, Steph and Tim in their early 20s.

If you keep the Ras and Thalia firsta ppearen when Dick was in collage, and the ages the characters had shortly before Falshpoint canon, Damian could have only been something between 5 and 7 by the time he became Robin.

----------


## Aahz

> and now Lian seems about Damian's age


I think she is even older, even if she was only 5 years old when she died pre Flashpoint.

----------


## HsssH

When was the last time we got a retelling of first meeting between Batman and Talia? I'd guess that in current continuity they had already met before Dick appeared.

----------


## Superboy-Prime

> When was the last time we got a retelling of first meeting between Batman and Talia? I'd guess that in current continuity they had already met before Dick appeared.


I don't know, but I'm guessing she was crazy even back then!

----------


## Frontier

> When was the last time we got a retelling of first meeting between Batman and Talia? I'd guess that in current continuity they had already met before Dick appeared.


Morrison's Batman Inc? It wasn't in-depth, but there were flashbacks to it.

----------


## Grayson - The Dark Heir

> If Damian is currently 14 no way Dick is only in his mid 20's. Wasn't he already in college when Bruce first met Talia and Ra's? Also with all his history for him to be that young is almost as worse as pretending Bruce is in his mid 30's.


For one, what history? They did bring NTT back into continuity for the most part, but that's about it. His time as Batman is still being downplayed, his time with the Outsiders or the JLA might not even be canon for all it matters right now, and it doesn't even seem his later Titans years are back (for all that would be worth anyway lol). He is effectively as old as he was when NTT ended, or as old as he was during Dixon's run, since that's all that seems to matter. He needs to have been old enough to finish his degree and join the BPD before quitting, so 24-28 (kinda wide range, I know). 

Babs was closer to Bruce's age than Dick's age once upon a time, things change.

----------


## Superboy-Prime

> For one, what history? They did bring NTT back into continuity for the most part, but that's about it. His time as Batman is still being downplayed, his time with the Outsiders or the JLA might not even be canon for all it matters right now, and it doesn't even seem his later Titans years are back (for all that would be worth anyway lol). He is effectively as old as he was when NTT ended, or as old as he was during Dixon's run, since that's all that seems to matter. He needs to have been old enough to finish his degree and join the BPD before quitting, so 24-28 (kinda wide range, I know). 
> 
> Babs was closer to Bruce's age than Dick's age once upon a time, things change.


I mean, he was only Batman for barely 2 years in the real world! Not much to downplay there.

----------


## AmiMizuno

I have to wonder what should he suit be. At times they have it be one piece others just top and pants. I know that in the 90s he did have gloves. But I wish they picked one thing. 

316C2C0C-C1F6-4B31-A668-E088FBB8838C.jpg

What do you guys think? How many pieces to his suit ?

----------


## Lady Nightwing

I have seen Dick pull the top half of the costume on like it's as malleable as a long sleeve t-shirt, which would make sense, his costume has to be super flexible because of his flips and sh*t. I don't know how it's also strong enough to stop bullets and blades. It's one of those comic book things I shrug off because the aesthetic is more important than realism.

In my heart of hearts, I believe the Nightwing suit is a one piece, despite what I've seen on panel.

----------


## John Venus

It's a onesie. Zips up from the back.

----------


## AmiMizuno

> I have seen Dick pull the top half of the costume on like it's as malleable as a long sleeve t-shirt, which would make sense, his costume has to be super flexible because of his flips and sh*t. I don't know how it's also strong enough to stop bullets and blades. It's one of those comic book things I shrug off because the aesthetic is more important than realism.
> 
> In my heart of hearts, I believe the Nightwing suit is a one piece, despite what I've seen on panel.


Overall I feel like with the number of heroes who knows he could have found a fabric that works just fine. Overall I do like the idea of maybe his mask being enchanted so no one can just take off his mask.

----------


## Frontier

This reminds me how the current Batgirl suit is a jacket and pants instead of onesie...

----------


## AmiMizuno

> This reminds me how the current Batgirl suit is a jacket and pants instead of onesie...


Doesn't Wait not including the gloves, cowl and Boots. I thought it was a two pieces. I mean not including the briefs since they did take that away. Bruce I guess is even two piece or one piece at times too. Robins two piece

----------


## Lady Nightwing

> Overall I feel like with the number of heroes who knows he could have found a fabric that works just fine. Overall I do like the idea of maybe his mask being enchanted so no one can just take off his mask.


The enchanted mask is a good idea. 

I always wanted him to incorporate the material Sylph used for her suit into his own. Though maybe not as sheer  :Smile:  but it would probably help loads with gliding and grappling around the place

----------


## Rac7d*



----------


## Drako

He was in TEC, DC vs Vampires and appeared in one page Deathstroke alongside Babs.

----------


## Frontier

> 


And Tynion made me think we were getting scaled down Batman  :Stick Out Tongue: .

----------


## Restingvoice

> I have to wonder what should he suit be. At times they have it be one piece others just top and pants. I know that in the 90s he did have gloves. But I wish they picked one thing. 
> 
> Attachment 115746
> 
> What do you guys think? How many pieces to his suit ?


Two piece is more practical, easy to get in and out, but I like the one piece, since it's sexier to take them off from the top and all the way down
I think I like back zipper too compared to the front, both can be sexy too, but the front would make the logo split in the middle and that's not a really good look. 

The material is some fantasy high tech three-layer lycra like Edna Mode's costume for The Incredibles since it needs to be flexible enough for an acrobat yet strong enough to withstand bullet.

The inner layer absorb sweat, high tech linings to make the suit adjust temperature for different climate and the outer layer is insulated and bulletproof

----------


## Drako

Review of the "Night Vigilante" figure.

----------


## Vordan

> And Tynion made me think we were getting scaled down Batman .


Lol don’t think it’s a coincidence this comes out right after Tynion’s last issue. Maybe Dick will loan Bruce a billion so he can get back in the billionaire’s club.

----------


## Frontier

Preview of the upcoming annual issue.

----------


## Rac7d*

> Preview of the upcoming annual issue.


They really are that dogs parents 
I love it

----------


## Godlike13

Art looks pretty rough.

----------


## Lady Nightwing

Bruno Redondo has spoiled us.

----------


## Avi

Can't say I agree. The action feels more dynamic than Redondo's and the art has more depth. Dick looks more like Bruce than himself, though, which is a shame.

----------


## Lal

> Can't say I agree. The action feels more dynamic than Redondo's and the art has more depth. Dick looks more like Bruce than himself, though, which is a shame.


The action looks great, but Dick looks much older and not much like himself.

----------


## Restingvoice

His "damn it" has the same tone as "Jason, what did you do?" in Red Hood Rebirth Annual. 

Bruce is Tired Bat Dad in fandom, Dick is Tired Big Bro in canon

----------


## Frontier

> His "damn it" has the same tone as "Jason, what did you do?" in Red Hood Rebirth Annual. 
> 
> Bruce is Tired Bat Dad in fandom, Dick is Tired Big Bro in canon


That checks out  :Stick Out Tongue: .

----------


## AmiMizuno

Nightwing made a appearance in My Hero spinoff

----------


## Drako

> Nightwing made a appearance in My Hero spinoff


Yeah, he appeared like that last year.
Funny thing is that he is the villain of the manga.

https://myheroacademia.fandom.com/wiki/Number_6

----------


## Frontier

> Yeah, he appeared like that last year.
> Funny thing is that he is the villain of the manga.
> 
> https://myheroacademia.fandom.com/wiki/Number_6


Oh, I thought he looked familiar. I'm not up to that point in the manga  :Stick Out Tongue: .

----------


## Rac7d*

> Nightwing made a appearance in My Hero spinoff


Uh no not this psycho freak

----------


## dietrich

How is he so handsome!

----------


## dietrich

> Nightwing made a appearance in My Hero spinoff


That's awesome!

----------


## dietrich

> Yeah, he appeared like that last year.
> Funny thing is that he is the villain of the manga.
> 
> https://myheroacademia.fandom.com/wiki/Number_6


That's still impressive. Not all characters get knock off versions.

----------


## Lady Nightwing

> How is he so handsome!


Holy crap, that is amazing fanart.

----------


## Rac7d*

> Holy crap, that is amazing fanart.


Is that not Travis moore

----------


## dietrich

> Is that not Travis moore


Thought it was a cover by the bloke that did the Annual where Damian cried but it was uncredited on the site where I came across it.

I wasn't certain so just posted it as is.

----------


## HsssH

If anyone cares Seeley in King Shark "revealed" Pigeon's origins and why it is a bit more demonic in that series than she was in Nightwing. Overall I'd say it was very weird.

----------


## dietrich

> If anyone cares Seeley in King Shark "revealed" Pigeon's origins and why it is a bit more demonic in that series than she was in Nightwing. Overall I'd say it was very weird.


Didn't he already give us her origins in Rebirth nightwing? The 1st flashback issue? I might be wrong.

----------


## HsssH

> Didn't he already give us her origins in Rebirth nightwing? The 1st flashback issue? I might be wrong.


Well it got expanded a bit in latests King Shark issue. Spoilers if you are not planning to read King Shark:

*spoilers:*
She is an old godkiller demon that can easily kill Gods and various mystical DC characters. She appeared "normal" in Nightwing because her powers had waned over the years due to Gods waning in importance, but due to events in King Shark series she got her powers back. Yes, weird. 
*end of spoilers*

----------


## Rac7d*

> Well it got expanded a bit in latests King Shark issue. Spoilers if you are not planning to read King Shark:
> 
> *spoilers:*
> She is an old godkiller demon that can easily kill Gods and various mystical DC characters. She appeared "normal" in Nightwing because her powers had waned over the years due to Gods waning in importance, but due to events in King Shark series she got her powers back. Yes, weird. 
> *end of spoilers*


She sounds like a villain for wonderwoman or Raven

----------


## Frontier

> Well it got expanded a bit in latests King Shark issue. Spoilers if you are not planning to read King Shark:
> 
> *spoilers:*
> She is an old godkiller demon that can easily kill Gods and various mystical DC characters. She appeared "normal" in Nightwing because her powers had waned over the years due to Gods waning in importance, but due to events in King Shark series she got her powers back. Yes, weird. 
> *end of spoilers*


I...what? Like I appreciate that Seeley can get trippy sometimes but this seems a lot even for him. 

*spoilers:*
So basically Batman and Robin literally busted and locked up a demon lady and her teen human companion. The GCPD literally arrested a _demon_ and carted her off in handcuffs.
*end of spoilers*

----------


## HsssH

*spoilers:*
Well Pigeon made a point about how with Gods waning in importance godkillers were reduced as well to being a nuisance for superheroes. So for all we know GCPD arrest some godkiller every few days.
*end of spoilers*

----------


## Restingvoice

> Is that not Travis moore





> Thought it was a cover by the bloke that did the Annual where Damian cried but it was uncredited on the site where I came across it.
> 
> I wasn't certain so just posted it as is.


No, different guy, it is fan art. He's on Twitter. I posted that image... last year or something... so I don't remember the name anymore.

----------


## Rac7d*

Seeing the art for Megan Zatanna and Artemis made me realize Nightwing has no, direct antagonist, no personal conflicts or issues to resolve. He has always been active in the main plot but nothing to his personal life. Perhaps because it might dive to heavy into the Gotham world and YJ stays DCU focused as a whole.   
He still grieving wally but volume 3 really settled that for Artemis and him. They have never mentioned tony zucco. I don’t want him preoccupied with Brion.  I suppose Jason is a thread but the events of the last arc show nothing but allegiance to ra’s and we’re not going back to infinity island. It’s 6 years to early for battle of the cowl. I am not sure what’s next for him.

Perhaps Deathstroke, rose Wilson, but we just did a whole mole arc.
Their is nothing obvious. I don’t want a random bat rouge just appearing, none of them have show any connection to the light or their going ons.

I’m sure Kaldurh will have his arc in Atlantis and deal with black manta, perhaps training Arthur’s child like he does in the comic, Garth may be involved.

----------


## Drako

> Seeing the art for Megan Zatanna and Artemis made me realize Nightwing has no, direct antagonist, no personal conflicts or issues to resolve. He has always been active in the main plot but nothing to his personal life. Perhaps because it might dive to heavy into the Gotham world and YJ stays DCU focused as a whole.   
> He still grieving wally but volume 3 really settled that for Artemis and him. They have never mentioned tony zucco. I don’t want him preoccupied with Brion.  I suppose Jason is a thread but the events of the last arc show nothing but allegiance to ra’s and we’re not going back to infinity island. It’s 6 years to early for battle of the cowl. I am not sure what’s next for him.
> 
> Perhaps Deathstroke, rose Wilson, but we just did a whole mole arc.
> Their is nothing obvious. I don’t want a random bat rouge just appearing, none of them have show any connection to the light or their going ons.
> 
> I’m sure Kaldurh will have his arc in Atlantis and deal with black manta, perhaps training Arthur’s child like he does in the comic, Garth may be involved.


The first two arc were about ghosts from the past and Zee will be dealing with her father. 

I'm 90% sure Nightwing arc will revolve around Jason. 
Neither Ra's or the league are to be trusted and the only reason the Batfamily didn't storm the league's base is because they don't know Jason is there cause league probably fucked with his brain, judging by the way he said Grayson's name last season.

----------


## Frontier

> The first two arc were about ghosts from the past and Zee will be dealing with her father. 
> 
> I'm 90% sure Nightwing arc will revolve around Jason. 
> Neither Ra's or the league are to be trusted and the only reason the Batfamily didn't storm the league's base is because they don't know Jason is there cause league probably fucked with his brain, judging by the way he said Grayson's name last season.


The Batfamily is going to look really flatfooted for not realizing they saw Jason on a few occasions and had no idea he was there...or little baby Damian.

----------


## Rac7d*

> The Batfamily is going to look really flatfooted for not realizing they saw Jason on a few occasions and had no idea he was there...or little baby Damian.





> The first two arc were about ghosts from the past and Zee will be dealing with her father. 
> 
> I'm 90% sure Nightwing arc will revolve around Jason. 
> Neither Ra's or the league are to be trusted and the only reason the Batfamily didn't storm the league's base is because they don't know Jason is there cause league probably fucked with his brain, judging by the way he said Grayson's name last season.


I just dont see us coming back to infinity island again this season. Unless Ra's releases Jason to cause chaos for bruce.

It doesn't feel like enough, and I'm afraid if Jason is the plot, Then that means involving bruce and will they allow Dick to lead if Bruce is here.?  Under the redhood without Bruce is wrong, as proved by Titans.   How much can they deviate from the redhood storyline that would still cause Jason to become redhood. His transformation in Titans made no sense when Bruce killed the Joker.

Im sure the deaths of Jason, Wally and now Connor are hitting him hard but also no more then anyone else.

----------


## Zaresh

> The Batfamily is going to look really flatfooted for not realizing they saw Jason on a few occasions and had no idea he was there...or little baby Damian.


I guess that's intentional, too. Kind of how they didn't notice Jason was wondering Gotham streets for months before Talia found him in the original story.

----------


## Drako

> I just dont see us coming back to infinity island again this season. Unless Ra's releases Jason to cause chaos for bruce.
> 
> It doesn't feel like enough, and I'm afraid if Jason is the plot, Then that means involving bruce and will they allow Dick to lead if Bruce is here.?  Under the redhood without Bruce is wrong, as proved by Titans.   How much can they deviate from the redhood storyline that would still cause Jason to become redhood. His transformation in Titans made no sense when Bruce killed the Joker.
> 
> Im sure the deaths of Jason, Wally and now Connor are hitting him hard but also no more then anyone else.


I really don't believe Ra''s Al Ghul all of the sudden is a good guy trying to make emends for his actions. The team don't need to go to infinty island again, but i don't belive that is the last we'll see of them. 

And they won't do "Under the red hood", that's a given (no need to rehash the same arc that another show already adapt in the same streaming service), but the show already prove they don't have any problems changing origins, like what they did with Oracle origin and Cass.

I bet all the arcs will intertwine at some point down the line. And I really doubt they would have Jason being just a giant easter egg for two seasons.

----------


## Rakiduam

> The first two arc were about ghosts from the past and Zee will be dealing with her father. 
> 
> I'm 90% sure Nightwing arc will revolve around Jason. 
> Neither Ra's or the league are to be trusted and the only reason the Batfamily didn't storm the league's base is because they don't know Jason is there cause league probably fucked with his brain, judging by the way he said Grayson's name last season.


Of course it will, everything about Nightwing revolves around the Bat Family these days. I'm sure it will be as successful as Titans' take was,as original too.

Young Justice skip 4 years of new stories with brand new dynamics in an original setting, but let's make Under the Red Hood again.

----------


## Pohzee

I really hate the building up of the Batfamily in YJ. Really hated to have to see Bruce, Dick, Tim, Barbara, Kate, and Steph all working together. What I liked about YJ was Dick able to be in interesting new situations with the wider DCU. I'm not interested in seeing him with Tim and Steph and co. I'd like for his stories to be less predictable than Under the Red Hood done again but worse, and I'd like for it to be with characters other than the Bat family.

----------


## Frontier

> It doesn't feel like enough, and I'm afraid if Jason is the plot, Then that means involving bruce and will they allow Dick to lead if Bruce is here.?  Under the redhood without Bruce is wrong, as proved by Titans.   How much can they deviate from the redhood storyline that would still cause Jason to become redhood. His transformation in Titans made no sense when Bruce killed the Joker.


I mean, they did a Mars arc and all they had J'onn do was make a big speech. The show is always willing to have the adult heroes take a backseat. 



> And they won't do "Under the red hood", that's a given (no need to rehash the same arc that another show already adapt in the same streaming service), but the show already prove they don't have any problems changing origins, like what they did with Oracle origin and Cass.


One big change is that it seems like Jason's getting meditation and actual LoS-branded therapy to help him instead of just being as messed up as he original was post-resurrection. 



> I bet all the arcs will intertwine at some point down the line. And I really doubt they would have Jason being just a giant easter egg for two seasons.


In before next time skip he's already Red Hood with no explanation  :Stick Out Tongue: . 



> Of course it will, everything about Nightwing revolves around the Bat Family these days. I'm sure it will be as successful as Titans' take was,as original too.
> 
> Young Justice skip 4 years of new stories with brand new dynamics in an original setting, but let's make Under the Red Hood again.


Well, whatever my issues with the show YJ is much better written than _Titans._



> I really hate the building up of the Batfamily in YJ. Really hated to have to see Bruce, Dick, Tim, Barbara, Kate, and Steph all working together. What I liked about YJ was Dick able to be in interesting new situations with the wider DCU. I'm not interested in seeing him with Tim and Steph and co. I'd like for his stories to be less predictable than Under the Red Hood done again but worse, and I'd like for it to be with characters other than the Bat family.


Personally I want to see the Batfamily actually interacting more because this is the closest we've gotten to adapting the 90's Batfamily together in animation and they haven't really done much with it (poor Tim).

----------


## GamerSlyRatchet

One minor non-Jason point I'd like to see addressed is Dick's uncle, Richard "Rick" Grayson. He is the only other surviving member of the Flying Graysons, but the accident left him unable to look after Dick. It's only addressed for a bit in the tie-in comics and then never again.

----------


## Frontier

> One minor non-Jason point I'd like to see addressed is Dick's uncle, Richard "Rick" Grayson. He is the only other surviving member of the Flying Graysons, but the accident left him unable to look after Dick. It's only addressed for a bit in the tie-in comics and then never again.


I always thought it was kind of random that they made the Flying Graysons into this big family-wide circus group. I kind of wonder what the reason was for that.

----------


## Rac7d*

> And I really doubt they would have Jason being just a giant easter egg for two seasons.


Why not let it linger. Thats the issue here Dick is the only one without any lingering storyline or plot being built over thease seasons. it has been a good slow burn with artemis and her family. Kaldur has taken on the mantle of Aquaman and his father despises him for it, Zatanna is still trying to free her father, M'gann has been teasing the martian unrest since season 1. I can only excuse raquel, becasue she didnt appear in season 3 at all, thank god the show runners are fan of hers.

----------


## Frontier

> Why not let it linger. Thats the issue here Dick is the only one without any lingering storyline or plot being built over thease seasons. it has been a good slow burn with artemis and her family. Kaldur has taken on the mantle of Aquaman and his father despises him for it, Zatanna is still trying to free her father, M'gann has been teasing the martian unrest since season 1. I can only excuse raquel, becasue she didnt appear in season 3 at all, thank god the show runners are fan of hers.


I guess Dick's lingering storyline is his commitment issues  :Stick Out Tongue: .

----------


## Rac7d*

> I guess Dick's lingering storyline is his commitment issues .


they fixed that last season

----------


## Lady Nightwing

> Is that not Travis moore


I think that may be @CrowSizna . Very talented artist, does quite a bit of NSFW stuff, so if that's not your cup of tea be careful of checking their other stuff

----------


## Frontier

> they fixed that last season


Did they though? Like it already seems like he's off doing his own thing again.

----------


## Rac7d*

> Did they though? Like it already seems like he's off doing his own thing again.


When, he was full team afterwards?

----------


## Restingvoice

> I think that may be @CrowSizna . Very talented artist, does quite a bit of NSFW stuff, so if that's not your cup of tea be careful of checking their other stuff


That's the one! Yes

----------


## Frontier

> When, he was full team afterwards?


There was that one scene of him and Tigress fighting crime I guess.

----------


## Rac7d*

> There was that one scene of him and Tigress fighting crime I guess.


I meant after roy talked to him, he was full time leading and training the new recruits. He returned to the team and then the league as well. His commitment issues were resolved where we left off

----------


## Frontier

> I meant after roy talked to him, he was full time leading and training the new recruits. He returned to the team and then the league as well. His commitment issues were resolved where we left off


I got the sense he left the Team again to start doing his own thing again off-screen.

----------


## Claude

If people were wondering, Dick isn't in this week's TTA - although it's clarified, in what came off to me as a slightly sulky "we've been asked to step back and let another book lead with this kind of thing" way, that he and Kory aren't together.

Plenty of Nightwing in the 'Tec annual, though - nothing groundbreaking, but sets the stage for the upcoming weekly story nicely.

----------


## Avi

Dick also appeared in Scarecrow's story from the Gotham City Villains Anniversary. Probably due to Titans synergy but it continued the theme of Dick being fearless Lobdell used during the Ric arc. The story ended a bit abruptly.




> If people were wondering, Dick isn't in this week's TTA - although it's clarified, in what came off to me as a slightly sulky "we've been asked to step back and let another book lead with this kind of thing" way, that he and Kory aren't together.
> 
> Plenty of Nightwing in the 'Tec annual, though - nothing groundbreaking, but sets the stage for the upcoming weekly story nicely.


So, only stepping back from the relationship stuff? Not from doing sth with Dick's character in general?

It was quite nice to see Bruce and Dick working together. I was very glad that there was no betrayal of trust shoehorned in (When Dick tells Bruce not to catch him until he says so, I was half expecting Bruce not to listen.)

----------


## Rac7d*

> If people were wondering, Dick isn't in this week's TTA - although it's clarified, in what came off to me as a slightly sulky "we've been asked to step back and let another book lead with this kind of thing" way, that he and Kory aren't together.
> 
> Plenty of Nightwing in the 'Tec annual, though - nothing groundbreaking, but sets the stage for the upcoming weekly story nicely.


I bet tim is glad to be off the book

that character who said "Why do I feel like the place isnt  gonna be around much longer"  already one foot in the grave, no writer likes being told they cant do what they want. Then you force someone who doesn't care and they write book to DC parameters but with no love, sales dwindle and the book is canceled and rebooted.

----------


## Claude

> So, only stepping back from the relationship stuff? Not from doing sth with Dick's character in general?


Oh, yeah, it ends with someone going to fetch Dick to be involved - it's just a walkback on the relationship thing.

(To be honest, and this might be me projecting my favouritism onto Sheridan, I think the main reason wasn't there is... the Titans got pretty jobbed in this issue - don't mind it, you're building up a villain, it happens. But Dick being away means you don't have to show him going down as easy too.)




> It was quite nice to see Bruce and Dick working together. I was very glad that there was no betrayal of trust shoehorned in (When Dick tells Bruce not to catch him until he says so, I was half expecting Bruce not to listen.)


I thought the same thing! Was very glad it wasn't "Bruce vs Dick" so much as "Bruce and Dick have a conversation about a mild disagreement".

Whereas I enjoyed the _Nightwing_ annual a lot - but I'm starting to wonder if Taylor actually _likes_ Batman. I don't mind him confronting pretty head-on that Bruce didn't always treat Dick well, but he's keeping him off-screen as much as possible building up Dick's independent connections to other member's of the family. Even when they met in Fear State and were on good terms, it was a slightly terse conversation.





> I bet tim is glad to be off the book
> 
> that character who said "Why do I feel like the place isnt  gonna be around much longer"  already one foot in the grave, no writer likes being told they cant do what they want. Then you force someone who doesn't care and they write book to DC parameters but with no love, sales dwindle and the book is canceled and rebooted.


Yeah, feels a bit like Sheridan was brought in to be one of the movers and shakers of 5G - then when that didn't happen, he was handed the keys to the Titans and Shazam franchises, and then the box he's been allowed to work in has got smaller and smaller. There's been a sense on Twitter that he's proud of the book, but hasn't necessarily hugely enjoyed the experience or thought it's had the support it should have.


I've been quite enjoying it, tbh, but it's pretty non-essential. Hurt by the delays, of course.

----------


## Drako

> I bet tim is glad to be off the book
> 
> that character who said "Why do I feel like the place isnt  gonna be around much longer"  already one foot in the grave, no writer likes being told they cant do what they want. Then you force someone who doesn't care and they write book to DC parameters but with no love, sales dwindle and the book is canceled and rebooted.


Doesn't help that TTA sucks.

----------


## Rac7d*

> Doesn't help that TTA sucks.


well yeah but its becasue of him

----------


## Badou

The TTA issue did that typical Bludhaven excuse that shows how awful Bludhaven is for Dick. Basically where the writer uses Bludahven as an excuse to write out Dick's character from the story. Because for some reason Dick is the only character in the DCU that is incapable of being in two places at once. Batman or a Superman can be everywhere in multiple books, but Dick isn't allowed to and they just use a Bludhaven as the reason over and over.

----------


## Ameerha

Without Bludhaven they just would have come up with a different excuse.

----------


## Rac7d*

> The TTA issue did that typical Bludhaven excuse that shows how awful Bludhaven is for Dick. Basically where the writer uses Bludahven as an excuse to write out Dick's character from the story. Because for some reason Dick is the only character in the DCU that is incapable of being in two places at once. Batman or a Superman can be everywhere in multiple books, but Dick isn't allowed to and they just use a Bludhaven as the reason over and over.


Yes and it saved him from being apart of that messy issue. But dont worry next month he will return to TTA to be outsmarted, outfought and outmaneuvered by the god entity that is Red X. You would rather he be apart of that full time then in his solo in bludhaven and apart of Gothamverse storylines? Dick was in two places at once plenty of times, during Titans rebirth, or for mission with batman while his bludhaven stories continued. until he was shot. The writer is choosing for him to not be here at this moment.  We will see continue to operate in two places at once with the remainder of TTA while he is apart of the shadow of the bat event and his solo.

----------


## Drako

> The TTA issue did that typical Bludhaven excuse that shows how awful Bludhaven is for Dick. Basically where the writer uses Bludahven as an excuse to write out Dick's character from the story. Because for some reason Dick is the only character in the DCU that is incapable of being in two places at once. Batman or a Superman can be everywhere in multiple books, but Dick isn't allowed to and they just use a Bludhaven as the reason over and over.


I know you hate Bludhaven, but that's a reach, dude.
How is Bludhaven's fault that Sheridan didn't want him in the book? Also, him not being in the TTA is a plus to me.

Another piece of Nightwing art by Dan Mora.




> Batgirls #1 Glass Cabinet Hobbies Retailer Exclusive Variant by Dan Mora

----------


## Vordan

Annual was fine but my God is Taylor borderline fanfic when it comes to Batfamily interactions.

----------


## Pohzee

I pretty sure that Dick needed out of that Academy issue because Taylor has first dibs on the Nightwing/Flash reunion following Heroes in Crisis (like 3 years later?)

But absolutely if it weren't for Blüdhaven, they just woulda said he's busy in Gotham with Bat business. Definitely read that happen within the past year. The Nightwing/Starfire Valentine's Day special if I'm remembering right.

----------


## Rac7d*

> I pretty sure that Dick needed out of that Academy issue because Taylor has first dibs on the Nightwing/Flash reunion following Heroes in Crisis (like 3 years later?)
> 
> But absolutely if it weren't for Blüdhaven, they just woulda said he's busy in Gotham with Bat business. Definitely read that happen within the past year. The Nightwing/Starfire Valentine's Day special if I'm remembering right.


He will be in the next few issues thier gonna see each other in TTA

----------


## Frontier

> Annual was fine but my God is Taylor borderline fanfic when it comes to Batfamily interactions.


More fanfic than Wayne Family Adventures  :Stick Out Tongue: ?

----------


## Lady Nightwing

I enjoyed the annual. I absolutely get the fanfiction complaints but it didn't bother me too much. 

My expectations were low, I kind of hate Red Hood and I'm on the fence about Taylors writing but I was pleasantly surprised by this. It's always a pleasure seeing the Discowing suit, Dick and Jason's banter was charming, the panel where Dick makes the shape got a genuine laugh, some lovely scenes with Alfred,  and  Haley made a quick appearance. It was a really fun book, though it does kind of make me wish Alfred wasn't still dead.

----------


## Drako

The only part i didn't like was Dick referring to Bruce as Dad.

Detective Comics Annual was also good!

----------


## HsssH

> Annual was fine but my God is Taylor borderline fanfic when it comes to Batfamily interactions.


I don't know, it feels like batfamily fanfiction is becoming "real" in general. I wonder if Didio wasn't blocking it and thats why we are getting so much of it now.

----------


## Vordan

> I don't know, it feels like batfamily fanfiction is becoming "real" in general. I wonder if Didio wasn't blocking it and thats why we are getting so much of it now.


I definitely think you’re seeing the younger generation start to get input on how these characters should act. Don’t think that’s a good thing for Dick since a lot of the “fanfic” characterization has him as an idiot, manchild, or pollyanna

----------


## Fergus

> I definitely think you’re seeing the younger generation start to get input on how these characters should act. Don’t think that’s a good thing for Dick since a lot of the “fanfic” characterization has him as an idiot, manchild, or pollyanna


That's not a good thing for any of the bats

----------


## Badou

> I know you hate Bludhaven, but that's a reach, dude.
> How is Bludhaven's fault that Sheridan didn't want him in the book?


Because Bludhaven is an easy excuse that gets used over and over. This isn't just limited to this one specific instance, but it is used to write out or isolate his character when writers want to over actually coming up with more creative uses for explaining why they are writing him out. No other character really has this happen it feels like. Just saying the character is away would have been better, because all this does by using Bludhaven is reinforce the idea that Dick can't be in two places at once or move freely as a character. Which limits him even more.

----------


## Rac7d*

> Because Bludhaven is an easy excuse that gets used over and over. This isn't just limited to this one specific instance, but it is used to write out or isolate his character when writers want to over actually coming up with more creative uses for explaining why they are writing him out. No other character really has this happen it feels like. Just saying the character is away would have been better, because all this does by using Bludhaven is reinforce the idea that Dick can't be in two places at once or move freely as a character. Which limits him even more.


If it wasn’t Bludhaven it be Gotham, his brain injury, being a Spyral agent, living in Chicago 

This is mostly a personal bias

----------


## Drako

> Because Bludhaven is an easy excuse that gets used over and over. This isn't just limited to this one specific instance, but it is used to write out or isolate his character when writers want to over actually coming up with more creative uses for explaining why they are writing him out. No other character really has this happen it feels like. Just saying the character is away would have been better, because all this does by using Bludhaven is reinforce the idea that Dick can't be in two places at once or move freely as a character. Which limits him even more.


It's a easy excuse cause it makes sense. He is not there cause the writer doesn't want him there and Sheridan choose Bludhaven cause Nightwing is the only Titan character on the book with a city to protect. It happens with whatever character the writer doesn't want in that specific issue. I'm sure it happened with Batman as well, even with Flash and Superman.

----------


## Claude

> Because Bludhaven is an easy excuse that gets used over and over. This isn't just limited to this one specific instance, but it is used to write out or isolate his character when writers want to over actually coming up with more creative uses for explaining why they are writing him out. No other character really has this happen it feels like. Just saying the character is away would have been better, because all this does by using Bludhaven is reinforce the idea that Dick can't be in two places at once or move freely as a character. Which limits him even more.


Whether you think this is better or worse, I think it's a little different this time - "in Bludhaven" in the context of this issue carries a heavy subtext of "with Barbara, not Kori". It's used as a leaping-off point to clarify the current status of the Nightwing/Starfire relationship, rather than just being a reason not to have Dick around.

----------


## Rac7d*

> Annual was fine but my God is Taylor borderline fanfic when it comes to Batfamily interactions.


technically we have seen that moment before but instead of them working as a team Jason gets frustrated and goes on ahead. New52 portrayed their relationship more antagonistically, they are trying to erase that decade jason was actuly Nightwings archenemy and they more or less hated each other for a long time. They even removed Dick being petty and angry at young jason. Dick not really that kind until after year one solo nightwing, and by that time jason is already dead.


I liked his little detective moment.

----------


## Zaresh

> technically we have seen that moment before but instead of them working as a team Jason gets frustrated and goes on ahead. New52 portrayed their relationship more antagonistically, they are trying to erase that decade jason was actuly Nightwings archenemy and they more or less hated each other for a long time. They even removed Dick being petty and angry at young jason. Dick not really that kind until after year one solo nightwing, and by that time jason is already dead.
> 
> 
> I liked his little detective moment.


Hmmm. I wouldn't say Jason was Dick's archenemy for a decade. He was his antagonistic enemy during his time as Batman, which lasted a few years. Before and afterwards, he was just either another foe in the gallery, a reluctant ally or informant, or a straight ally. Same can be said for their status when Jason was Robin. They didn't interact a lot post crisis, if at all. And they were kinda distant. But before, they were friendly to each other. Heck, pre-crisis Dick thought about adopting Jason.

Dick has archenemies, but Jason is not really a character I would picture as one.

----------


## Ameerha

> They even removed Dick being petty and angry at young jason. Dick not really that kind until after year one solo nightwing, and by that time jason is already dead.


 When did this supposedly happen? As far as I remember, they barely interacted before Jason's death.

----------


## dietrich

> technically we have seen that moment before but instead of them working as a team Jason gets frustrated and goes on ahead. New52 portrayed their relationship more antagonistically, they are trying to erase that decade jason was actuly Nightwings archenemy and they more or less hated each other for a long time. They even removed Dick being petty and angry at young jason. Dick not really that kind until after year one solo nightwing, and by that time jason is already dead.
> 
> 
> I liked his little detective moment.


new 52 didn't portray them as antagonistic. Jason was part of the family in the new 52. Pre Flashpoint Jason was trying to murder Dick and his bros. Didn't he even become a fake Nightwing?

Jason was def more antagonistic/a foe [not such if I'd go as far as calling him Nightwing archenemy though] before the reboot. 

Then new 52/Rebirth suddenly jason's back in the fold. No mention of the fact that he paralysed Bruce's 10 year son, left his other teen son for dead, tried to kill his eldest or even the fact that he attempted to expose naked video of 10 year old Damian to the whole of Gotham.

That's why it feels fanfic-like. There's no bridge, no redemption not even an apology. The whole thing feels like ignoring canon and pushing through nonsensical HC.

----------


## Zaresh

> new 52 didn't portray them as antagonistic. Jason was part of the family in the new 52. Pre Flashpoint Jason was trying to murder Dick and his bros. Didn't he even become a fake Nightwing?
> 
> Jason was def more antagonistic/a foe [not such if I'd go as far as calling him Nightwing archenemy though] before the reboot. 
> 
> Then new 52/Rebirth suddenly jason's back in the fold. No mention of the fact that he paralysed Bruce's 10 year son, left his other teen son for dead, tried to kill his eldest or even the fact that he attempted to expose naked video of 10 year old Damian to the whole of Gotham.
> 
> That's why it feels fanfic-like. There's no bridge, no redemption not even an apology. The whole thing feels like ignoring canon and pushing through nonsensical HC.


Not to lessen* the guilt in Jason pre-FP, but he didn't paralized Damian. Flamingo did. Ironically, while Damian was trying to save Scarlet and Jason from Flamingo. Well, I guess he was actually trying to save Dick. but Dick was trying to save them.bandr-vol1-issue06-p15.jpg

----------


## Godlike13

Annual was meh.

----------


## Iclifton

It was a good-decent issue. I have a lower scale since it is an Annual/extra issue.

Things I liked:
- Dick got to show some detective skills
- Came off as the cool big brother

Things I did not like:
- I am biased but I hate the no killing crowbar wielding version of Jason. I miss him being outside the family.
- The actual culprit was pretty obvious
- Never really been a fan of Dick getting fired from the Robin role.

I am looking forward to getting back to the main story of the run. I do not mind Barbara or other Bat-family members in the title because Dick has remained the focus. But between this issue and the Fear State crossover, issue #87 cannot come soon enough.

----------


## Rac7d*

> new 52 didn't portray them as antagonistic. Jason was part of the family in the new 52. Pre Flashpoint Jason was trying to murder Dick and his bros. Didn't he even become a fake Nightwing?
> 
> Jason was def more antagonistic/a foe [not such if I'd go as far as calling him Nightwing archenemy though] before the reboot. 
> 
> Then new 52/Rebirth suddenly jason's back in the fold. No mention of the fact that he paralysed Bruce's 10 year son, left his other teen son for dead, tried to kill his eldest or even the fact that he attempted to expose naked video of 10 year old Damian to the whole of Gotham.
> 
> That's why it feels fanfic-like. There's no bridge, no redemption not even an apology. The whole thing feels like ignoring canon and pushing through nonsensical HC.


They weren't at good terms at the beginning, honestly its almost as if jason chills out at the start of  new 52. No longer deranged and a serial killer and we progress from their to present. 

That robin and nightwing scene in Taylors annual is an ocean apart from this iteration in early new 52



down the road it was still pretty much on sight early new 52. This Brotherly Bond is something built over the last decade

----------


## Iclifton

> They weren't at good terms at the beginning, honestly its almost as if jason chills out at the start of  new 52. No longer deranged and a serial killer and we progress from their to present. 
> 
> That robin and nightwing scene in Taylors annual is an ocean apart from this iteration in early new 52
> 
> 
> 
> down the road it was still pretty much on sight early new 52. This Brotherly Bond is something built over the last decade


I much prefer this dynamic

----------


## dietrich

> Not to lessen* the guilt in Jason pre-FP, but he didn't paralized Damian. Flamingo did. Ironically, while Damian was trying to save Scarlet and Jason from Flamingo. Well, I guess he was actually trying to save Dick. but Dick was trying to save them.bandr-vol1-issue06-p15.jpg


You are right. jason shot Damian in the chest. He just meant to kill the 10 year old kid in front of his older brother, he didn't paralyze him.



My bad. Thank you for correcting my mistake.

----------


## Iclifton

> You are right. jason shot Damian in the chest. He just meant to kill the 10 year old kid in front of his older brother, he didn't paralyze him.
> 
> 
> 
> My bad. Thank you for correcting my mistake.


Hence the "not to lessen Jason`s guilt" piece of the statement.

----------


## dietrich

I not sure which dynamic I want. I prefer Jason as an antagonist to the bats. He had a well defined niche back when he was a clear foe.

I also prefer the bats not be so angsty and fighty all the time.


His current status quo don't track for me because his story is lacking the redemption journey that leads to the bats feeling comfortable to have him watch their back.

I also feel that current jason isn't all that different from Robin. A batman ally who doesn't have his own city and is working through issues with batman.

I think early Rebirth RHATO's was a good balance. he wasn't an antagonist but he was so present in the family. He maintained a distance that didn't make him being back in the fold so jarring to see.

----------


## dietrich

> Hence the "not to lessen Jason`s guilt" piece of the statement.


That statement was appreciated hence the 'thank you'

----------


## Zaresh

> You are right. jason shot Damian in the chest. He just meant to kill the 10 year old kid in front of his older brother, he didn't paralyze him.
> 
> 
> 
> My bad. Thank you for correcting my mistake.


It's so not nice looking how some of you get offended by a slight correction. I even said that I didn't meant to lessen his behaviour. Yet you needed to post once again that stuff just to yet again state what? That Jason hurt Damian? Yes, he hurt Damian. He tried to kill Damian? Arguable, because at this distance a shoot like that that aims to kill, kills. But comics are like that, ok, let's asume he did try to kill Damian there. It's supported by Dick saying that they needed to give him some heavy blood transfusion a few pages ahead. But then in issue 3 Alfred says that he really in such a peril and the kevlar suit saved his life fine: just bruised lungs and some blood loose by a severed artery. I don't know. Nothing of this sounds very realistic, but whatever. Yeah, he shoot to kill most probably.

Let's get to that piece of art you posted.
Because it keeps being thrown in these threads these days, I've decided to reread Battle for the Cowl. It seems I dislike myself that much.

Battle for the Cowl, that story in which Dick is broodily doubting himself all over and standing aside, letting Tim and the birds doing all the work with Black Mask and the Arkham gallery plot, and using trauma to capture Jason by hurting him deeply with words and punches (note that Jason taunted him beforehand. but Dick went to Jason with the will. I don't think he wanted to use it that way, after the reread, though). And Damian enjoys having fun in the batmobile like a true rebel kid driving with a girl at his side (until Babs catchs him and he ejects her). And where Jason not only is violent and murderous, he WANTS to be Batman because Gotham apparently needs Batman now in his head and always has despite everything previously pointing otherwise, and even builds an evil lair underground to himself. Because.

In that scene, that happens at the start of the second issue, we have Jason delivering some awful monologue about Bruces methods and bad example. He also mentions people getting hurt. Dick is finally fighting the bad guys, and is about to be captured when Jason shows up, blazing shoots. He takes care of the guys and run aways. Dick and Damian pursue him. Then Dick and Jason fight, Dick doesn't know who is under the cowl, and Damian enters the fight with all he has with the intention of, at least by word, killing Jason (not that he can do it. He is deal with by Jason). Jason recognises Damian's suit as a league suit and shoots him shortly afterwards. 
This is the context.
With that, Jason, who I think is awfully out of character by just shooting a kid in here, is proving two points /he gos to the point, by his words): involving kids is dangerous, and Dick isn't protecting Damian or the city (they actually talk about that, how Dick didn't move to protect the city). But the most amusing thing is, I don't think Jason even knows that Damian is one of the good guys here. Because he identifies him as a league member. He didn't tried to kill Dick or Selina. He wasn't going to kill Tim either, until they start fighting serious. And even then, I don't think he really aimed to kill. He seems to leave Tim alone once he takes his pulse and sees he's still alive. The batsuit can take a batarang to the torso. Jason knows that, he's not an idiot.
So, just Damian. I think he though he was a league affiliated assassin. Or it's meant to be read that way.

And then, finally, Dick decides to act. Goes to Jason, Jason taunts him with Tim (we know that doesn't work well with Dick. I mean...), they talk again about the cowl and Dick's legacy issues, about Jason issues, they fight, and then Dick uses the record of Bruce's will to even set off Jason further. Which sure will help him in finding Tim. They keep fighting, Dick offers Jason help, and Jason decides to fall down.

God, what a dissapointment of a book.
Art was nice. And Tim wasn't bad, which is something I didn't remember at all. Dick wasn't bad either, in the last part of issue 3 (this was pointed out to me before, by godlike. they were right). Damian was OOC half the time, but it has good things, like him feeling more involved with his new fam.

My point: Jason did some truly awful things before. He killed a lot of people, hurt a lot of people too. But it's nice to give context.

Edit: I feel awful for such an off topic in this thread. I guess it's kind of related to Dick, but still, I feel I shouldn't have post this long about Jason.
But I needed to post it.
I'm really sorry.

Edit 2: that "thank you" sounded sarcastic. I asumed it was sarcastic.

----------


## Restingvoice

I... want... Jason... to... travel and fight international crime... with guns
Family dynamic... the same that Batman has with other heroes that use the lethal method... that is... go ahead and do what you want outside of Gotham as long as you don't do it in Gotham
Simon Baz uses guns, but not while he's in Gotham
Batman only trusts Alfred and Gordon with guns, and Gordon's team by proxy
Like that
So he... doesn't supply him with the latest tech, but he's still invited to Alfred's funeral... and... Bruce being Bruce, he still asks Oracle to monitor him
With Dick, it's casual. 
The three of them are not super lovey-daddy-brotherly... but they're not antagonistic either
They acknowledge that you're you and I can't change you so let's go our own way, and if you're in trouble I'll help because we are still family

----------


## Claude

> God, what a dissapointment of a book.


I mean, that's the problem isn't it?

I quite like the idea of Jason as a villain to Dick - an antagonistic Red Hood is much more interesting as a "peer" to Dick who had the same training and same father figure than he is an Evil Son to Bruce - but I'll freely admit I'm not a huge fan of Jason of by himself, so I'm _solely_ coming at this as a fan of Dick.

I even quite liked the most recent series of Titans!

But in comics, there's no good example of it to point to - because almost every time they've done it, it's been very poor. Which, after a certain point, starts to tell you something.
(I liked the Morrison story, but Jason is _so_ much a villain there that it's unsustainable if you want to do other things with him.)

I quite liked where they'd reached in the first _Batman Eternal_, where Jason was close with Tim, tense but working with Barbara, still a complicated relationship with Bruce - but obviously and unashamedly didn't give two ****s that Dick was "dead".


But if things are more nicey-nicey now, I'm happy with things like this Annual back-dating that to show a healthier relationship between Dick and Jason during the latter's Robin days. It's more honest to back and change things than pretend there was this big sea change in everyone's attitude to each other without actually telling that story - it's the most useful thing about the semi-regular continuity reboots!

----------


## Zaresh

> I mean, that's the problem isn't it?
> 
> I quite like the idea of Jason as a villain to Dick - an antagonistic Red Hood is much more interesting as a "peer" to Dick who had the same training and same father figure than he is an Evil Son to Bruce - but I'll freely admit I'm not a huge fan of Jason of by himself, so I'm _solely_ coming at this as a fan of Dick.
> 
> I even quite liked the most recent series of Titans!
> 
> But in comics, there's no good example of it to point to - because almost every time they've done it, it's been very poor. Which, after a certain point, starts to tell you something.
> (I liked the Morrison story, but Jason is _so_ much a villain there that it's unsustainable if you want to do other things with him.)
> 
> ...


I can agree with many of your points, actually.
You know? i honestly wouldn't  mind if Jason were an antagonistic character of Dick in a story, as far as it is a well written one, who works the antagonistic dynamic well, based on how these characters are usually written. I think Jason and Tim are way more likely to understand each other than Dick and Jason, because how Tim, Dick and Jason are, their good points, and their flaws.

Or at least, with the characters in the way I understand them.
Dick has a temper, he doesn't need to be friendly with everyone. Hell, his friends can bear witness of it. There's room for friction and not meeting the eye between these two.
There's also room for a buddy cop dynamic, too. Without changing these characters into characters that they mostly weren't and their fans can't* recognise.
And I'm also not against retcons, as long as they're respectful to how readers and fans feel these characters. It's a way to revisit old stories and update them to new audiences, for Dick or Babs, for example. Or in the case of Jason, give him a time as Robin that he barely had because the COIE changes and half of the issues with Batman being about Batman's solo days.

----------


## dietrich

> It's so not nice looking how some of you get offended by a slight correction. I even said that I didn't meant to lessen his behaviour. Yet you needed to post once again that stuff just to yet again state what? That Jason hurt Damian? Yes, he hurt Damian. He tried to kill Damian? Arguable, because at this distance a shoot like that that aims to kill, kills. But comics are like that, ok, let's asume he did try to kill Damian there. It's supported by Dick saying that they needed to give him some heavy blood transfusion a few pages ahead. But then in issue 3 Alfred says that he really in such a peril and the kevlar suit saved his life fine: just bruised lungs and some blood loose by a severed artery. I don't know. Nothing of this sounds very realistic, but whatever. Yeah, he shoot to kill most probably.
> 
> Let's get to that piece of art you posted.
> Because it keeps being thrown in these threads these days, I've decided to reread Battle for the Cowl. It seems I dislike myself that much.
> 
> Battle for the Cowl, that story in which Dick is broodily doubting himself all over and standing aside, letting Tim and the birds doing all the work with Black Mask and the Arkham gallery plot, and using trauma to capture Jason by hurting him deeply with words and punches (note that Jason taunted him beforehand. but Dick went to Jason with the will. I don't think he wanted to use it that way, after the reread, though). And Damian enjoys having fun in the batmobile like a true rebel kid driving with a girl at his side (until Babs catchs him and he ejects her). And where Jason not only is violent and murderous, he WANTS to be Batman because Gotham apparently needs Batman now in his head and always has despite everything previously pointing otherwise, and even builds an evil lair underground to himself. Because.
> 
> In that scene, that happens at the start of the second issue, we have Jason delivering some awful monologue about Bruces methods and bad example. He also mentions people getting hurt. Dick is finally fighting the bad guys, and is about to be captured when Jason shows up, blazing shoots. He takes care of the guys and run aways. Dick and Damian pursue him. Then Dick and Jason fight, Dick doesn't know who is under the cowl, and Damian enters the fight with all he has with the intention of, at least by word, killing Jason (not that he can do it. He is deal with by Jason). Jason recognises Damian's suit as a league suit and shoots him shortly afterwards. 
> This is the context.
> ...



I referenced Jason shooting Damian but cited the wrong incident in my original comment.

You pointed out my error.

I noted said error.

Corrected my error and posted the incident I was thinking about in my original comment.

I apologised and then said thank you.

What exactly is the issue?

This is a Dick Grayson thread. I'm pretty sure everyone here knows enough to know the history of Jason and the bats/Robins.

Chest or spine.
*Whatever the context An adult shooting a kid isn't right and it's something that should be addressed before welcoming said adult back onto what is supposed to be that kid's safe space.*

The bolded is the crux of my OG point. That is the important part not the examples used or whatever

----------


## Rac7d*

Now on sale on Amazon

https://www.amazon.com/McFarlane-Toy...8407612&sr=8-1

----------


## Rac7d*

> Now on sale on Amazon
> 
> https://www.amazon.com/McFarlane-Toy...8407612&sr=8-1


Looking at it like this, his costume look very DIY
I wear paints like that for paintball. I excited to see what his upgraded look will be like

----------


## Frontier

> Now on sale on Amazon
> 
> https://www.amazon.com/McFarlane-Toy...8407612&sr=8-1


I hope you can make it a seamless onesie in-game.

----------


## Zaresh

> I hope you can make it a seamless onesie in-game.


I need a new trailer, soon.
Going by the ingame piece they showed a year ago or so, suits will be highly costumizable. So... maybe? I hope.

----------


## RedBird

> You are right. jason shot Damian in the chest. *He just meant to kill the 10 year old kid in front of his older brother, he didn't paralyze him.*
> 
> 
> 
> My bad. Thank you for correcting my mistake.


I think this piece of sarcasm being followed with a 'thank you' for the correction, is why people are pointing it out as unnecessary or insincere.

----------


## RedBird

> I hope you can make it a seamless onesie in-game.


I'm presuming the costumes can be upgraded, although if they only upgrade in pieces, then I hope all the pieces I like aesthetically will also provide better protection from enemies. I always end up valuing the looks over the performance for gears in game. 

As long as my character looks cool that's all that matters. XD

EDIT: would anyone be interested in 'special' alternate outfits? I think I'd actually like to see a Gray Son Court of Owls costume for Dick like the one in the dark multiverse Hush story.

----------


## Grayson - The Dark Heir

I think it's really funny that people hate Jason being anything but an antagonist, when this annual was a lot truer to what Jason was like as Robin than the stories that established him as an antagonist post-resurrection. It's like people preferring Nightwing as Batman's adult sidekick to him being a wider DCU character (...which is a thing that people prefer, so I guess it is what it is). 

The annual wasn't anything special, but it's like the only issue of Taylor's run that I actually liked lol.

----------


## Godlike13

I wouldn’t say it’s like that. Remember Jason as Robin wasn’t particularly successful. His modern reinvention as Red Hood is suppose to contrast what he was like as Robin in the 80’s, as that Jason was literally dead and buried after being more or less rejected by audiences.

----------


## Pohzee

I saw someone on reddit say that Red Hood being a goodie-two shoes now basically makes him "Lite-Wing." And I agree with that. He needs to bring something different to Gotham. And that can't be the same schtick as all the other Robins but "more edgy." I'm not a big fan of the overlapping roles character regardless of their "character arc." Have them branch out in different directions rather than back to the trunk.

----------


## Iclifton

> I think it's really funny that people hate Jason being anything but an antagonist, when this annual was a lot truer to what Jason was like as Robin than the stories that established him as an antagonist post-resurrection. It's like people preferring Nightwing as Batman's adult sidekick to him being a wider DCU character (...which is a thing that people prefer, so I guess it is what it is). 
> 
> The annual wasn't anything special, but it's like the only issue of Taylor's run that I actually liked lol.


I dont need him to be an antagonist. But anti-hero. One whose views do not match the rest of the family. At least that version of him is unique. Right now he brings nothing unique to the table. The crowbar is lame. The original Jason Robin was just a copy and paste Dick Grayson. The only unique role hes ever had is when he came back from the dead.

No one wants Dick to be a sidekick. Not a single Nightwing fan. Thats just a term people use to devalue a status quo that doesnt match their perception of the character. Like it or not even on the Titans, Dicks hook was he was from the Batfamily. The original Robin. I dont want to get into this again, but being a part of a highly marketable franchise does not make you a side kick. Not once in this run has Dick been a sidekick. Dont like the run. Fine. But he has been the focal point. In fact the point of the run so far has been him trying a different approach than Bruce.

----------


## Zaresh

> I saw someone on reddit say that Red Hood being a goodie-two shoes now basically makes him "Lite-Wing." And I agree with that. He needs to bring something different to Gotham. And that can't be the same schtick as all the other Robins but "more edgy." I'm not a big fan of the overlapping roles character regardless of their "character arc." Have them branch out in different directions rather than back to the trunk.


That's a very simplistic view in these characters that have very different histories, struggles and even personalities. The kind of conflics that Dick can find in his stories are very different to the kind of conflicts that Jason has.

By that logic, half the characters in the batfam should change their personality and status, or maybe more than half. Nuclear members included.

Besides, Jason isn't overlapping Dick's appeal, and Jason's not a goody two shoes either.

Dick isn't either, btw. Or shouldn't. He's righteous but kind, and can trust but not without reason, and often is easy to get him involved in someone else's plan because he's cooperative. But he's not a goody two shoes. And Jason, right now, isn't either. That he doesn't kill doesn't mean he's suddently this forgiving all goody, easy to trust everyone person eithsr. He's still difficult, untrusting and harsh. A character is more than just a few strokes. I don't think it's a fair assestment.

The crowbar needs to go, though. That, we can most of us agree, I think.

Edit: And here I am, speaking about Jason again, and I wasn't going to. Becuase this is Dick's thread, damn it!

Anyways, the annual was ok. I have my issues with it, but it was enjoyable.

----------


## Rac7d*

> I need a new trailer, soon.
> Going by the ingame piece they showed a year ago or so, suits will be highly costumizable. So... maybe? I hope.


I know everyone has a final form of sorts
I hope you can upgrade your costume, I know that their gonna make Dick evasive, so he’ll be squishy

----------


## Zaresh

> I know everyone has a final form of sorts
> I hope you can upgrade your costume, I know that their gonna make Dick evasive, so he’ll be squishy


Yeah, a bulky costume really shouldn't fit his supposed build for the character "job". But I also feel like they're going to give him the martial artist role, somehow. So maybe it all depends if they go for a fluid martial artist or a hard-hitter one.

----------


## Iclifton

> That's a very simplistic view in these characters that have very different histories, struggles and even personalities. The kind of conflics that Dick can find in his stories are very different to the kind of conflicts that Jason has.
> 
> By that logic, half the characters in the batfam should change their personality and status, or maybe more than half. Nuclear members included.
> 
> Besides, Jason isn't overlapping Dick's appeal, and Jason's not a goody two shoes either.
> 
> Dick isn't either, btw. Or shouldn't. He's righteous but kind, and can trust but not without reason, and often is easy to get him involved in someone else's plan because he's cooperative. But he's not a goody two shoes. And Jason, right now, isn't either. That he doesn't kill doesn't mean he's suddently this forgiving all goody, easy to trust everyone person eithsr. He's still difficult, untrusting and harsh. A character is more than just a few strokes.
> 
> The crowbar needs to go, though. That, we can most of us agree, I think.
> ...


To each his own. While they have different personalities, the role he currently fils as well as his limits make him too similar to other characters for me. Until a few years ago I read every single Jason book. Now I just can’t muster the interest. But as I said, everyone has there own take on the character they prefer and that’s okay. I just think the version that the anti-hero/killer version will be the one that also gets the most tract with general audiences.

----------


## Rac7d*

3916F9A3-4790-4912-97EF-FE9C1CC009AB.jpg
Happy Birthday Dick

----------


## HsssH

> (I liked the Morrison story, but Jason is _so_ much a villain there that it's unsustainable if you want to do other things with him.)


Morrison had a second "story" with him in the second volume of Batman Inc. where he pretends to be Wingman and is less villainous. I wonder if that was something that Morrison came up with himself as an evolution of Jason (Batman and Robin story being basically rock bottom from which he recovers a bit) or was it pushed by editors/Didio since Jason was supposed to sell some comics during New 52.

----------


## JackJustMetMartin

> technically we have seen that moment before but instead of them working as a team Jason gets frustrated and goes on ahead. New52 portrayed their relationship more antagonistically, they are trying to erase that decade jason was actuly Nightwings archenemy and they more or less hated each other for a long time. They even removed Dick being petty and angry at young jason. Dick not really that kind until after year one solo nightwing, and by that time jason is already dead.
> 
> 
> I liked his little detective moment.


This misconception that Dick was anything but kind towards young Jason is based in fandom. He didn't like being replaced, but never showed Jason anything but respect.

This post is an excellent write up on the topic https://lananiscorner.tumblr.com/pos...e-robin-in-the

----------


## dietrich

> I think this piece of sarcasm being followed with a 'thank you' for the correction, is why people are pointing it out as unnecessary or insincere.


the Thank you was sincere. How the hell any of this has anything to do with the OG point I was making in the comment beats me.

----------


## Grayson - The Dark Heir

> I don’t need him to be an antagonist. But anti-hero. One whose views do not match the rest of the family. At least that version of him is unique. Right now he brings nothing unique to the table. The crowbar is lame. The original Jason Robin was just a copy and paste Dick Grayson. The only unique role he’s ever had is when he came back from the dead.
> 
> No one wants Dick to be a sidekick. Not a single Nightwing fan. That’s just a term people use to devalue a status quo that doesn’t match their perception of the character. Like it or not even on the Titans, Dicks hook was he was from the Batfamily. The original Robin. I don’t want to get into this again, but being a part of a highly marketable franchise does not make you a side kick. Not once in this run has Dick been a sidekick. Don’t like the run. Fine. But he has been the focal point. In fact the point of the run so far has been him trying a different approach than Bruce.


So what you want is to toss out all of his previous characterization to make Jason "unique". That's fine. If anything, hoping that happens again is actually reasonable, since that's what happened when it was decided Jason would die and again when he came back to life. 

Also, which run? Taylor's? I didn't say anything regarding that in my comments about Jason or Dick, what I meant is that Dick has been a sidekick in Batman books for the past 10 years. Although, then again, he always felt a little subservient to Batman since Dixon took over too. He was independent enough in the Dixon era stories I've read to maintain the illusion he was his own man at least, kinda like now with Taylor's run. Although, I am amused you thought I meant Taylor's run specifically, since I guess "Dick is not the main character" or something similar is a common enough critique lol. 




> To each his own. While they have different personalities, the role he currently fils as well as his limits make him too similar to other characters for me. Until a few years ago I read every single Jason book. Now I just can’t muster the interest. But as I said, everyone has there own take on the character they prefer and that’s okay. I just think the version that the anti-hero/killer version will be the one that also gets the most tract with general audiences.


This just sounds like how I feel about the current Nightwing run. 

Dick as Batman's sidekick is also the version that has the most traction with general audiences. I'm not happy about that either, but it is what it is. 




> I saw someone on reddit say that Red Hood being a goodie-two shoes now basically makes him "Lite-Wing." And I agree with that. He needs to bring something different to Gotham. And that can't be the same schtick as all the other Robins but "more edgy." I'm not a big fan of the overlapping roles character regardless of their "character arc." Have them branch out in different directions rather than back to the trunk.


See this is really funny, because this is what I'd say about Nightwing. He's been watered down for a long time now, which is somewhat reasonable since Jason's resurrection meant he would be the totally edgy one and Dick wouldn't really be allowed to be anything but "the good Robin". 

Regardless, the fact that Jason is alive and that there are two other current Robins in Tim and Damian means they'll all overlap. They were all Robin, trained more or less by the same Batman. They may be unique characters, but they never have had unique roles. Bring Dick back to Gotham, and now you have four characters with overlapping roles. The only solution would be to Didio it all and get rid of all the overlapping characters. The only preventative measure would've been to never introduce all these characters in the first place, i.e. Jason's resurrection. The fact of the matter is Jason is alive now. He's going to overlap no matter what. Even as an anti-hero. 




> I wouldn’t say it’s like that. Remember Jason as Robin wasn’t particularly successful. His modern reinvention as Red Hood is suppose to contrast what he was like as Robin in the 80’s, as that Jason was literally dead and buried after being more or less rejected by audiences.


Jason was only killed off because the poll was rigged, apparently. He was only chosen to be in the poll because he was a Robin, making him significant, and not Dick, making him not significant enough. 




> This misconception that Dick was anything but kind towards young Jason is based in fandom. He didn't like being replaced, but never showed Jason anything but respect.
> 
> This post is an excellent write up on the topic https://lananiscorner.tumblr.com/pos...e-robin-in-the


This is exactly what I was getting at too. This issue felt truer to both Dick and Jason than I expected.

----------


## Iclifton

> So what you want is to toss out all of his previous characterization to make Jason "unique". That's fine. If anything, hoping that happens again is actually reasonable, since that's what happened when it was decided Jason would die and again when he came back to life. 
> 
> Also, which run? Taylor's? I didn't say anything regarding that in my comments about Jason or Dick, what I meant is that Dick has been a sidekick in Batman books for the past 10 years. Although, then again, he always felt a little subservient to Batman since Dixon took over too. He was independent enough in the Dixon era stories I've read to maintain the illusion he was his own man at least, kinda like now with Taylor's run. Although, I am amused you thought I meant Taylor's run specifically, since I guess "Dick is not the main character" or something similar is a common enough critique lol. 
> 
> 
> This just sounds like how I feel about the current Nightwing run. 
> 
> Dick as Batman's sidekick is also the version that has the most traction with general audiences. I'm not happy about that either, but it is what it is. 
> 
> ...


Not really. If Jason was villanous or even just an outsider to the Batfamily, then there is no overlap for him. Damien currently holds the role of Robin and has the most unique take on the role. That leaves Dick and Tim. Unfortunately, since Tim left the role of Robin he has not been able to find his place and may never. He does not really serve any purpose. Stuck between being Robin and his own solo hero. Nightwing on the other hand is the Robin who grew out of Batmans shadow and his own solo hero. Some stories do leave him a little watered down. But its pretty easy to see what makes him unique compared to others. Being the original, all other adult Robins are currently coming off as pale imitations. What edge? Jason has no more edge. I`d take Morrisons BandR take over what we are getting now.

----------


## Godlike13

> Jason was only killed off because the poll was rigged, apparently. He was only chosen to be in the poll because he was a Robin, making him significant, and not Dick, making him not significant enough.


And then left dead for decades. Poll being rigged or not, the most most successful thing about his tenure as Robin was his death. There was no demand for how he was as Robin, and his reinvention as Red Hood played off that and the idea that he was a failure as Robin.

----------


## Iclifton

> And then left dead for 20+ years. Poll being rigged or not, the most most successful thing about his tenure as Robin was his death. There was no demand for how he was as Robin, and his reinvention as Red Hood played off that and the idea that he was a failure.


100% agreed. His success as a character was because of the Red Hood reinvention.

----------


## Zaresh

About the overlapping stuff. Yesterday I went to Reddit and wrote this. My post was larger, but because I repeated a few points that I've already written here before, I'll share here what I hadn't yet.




> I'll give you all an example of a story you can write with Jason but not with Dick. So what happens when Jason, who isn't killing anymore, finds the daughter of a mafiosi that he killed years ago? Or, what happens when he's framed and captured and can't prove his innocence because his history works strongly against him? Or a new villain really pushes his new resolve too much and he's about to kill them, would will them, decides to kill them ultimately, and falls again even if it's justified to some point? Or he kills someone in self defence. Or he meets someone who has a personal story with the red hood as he was before and Jason gets extorted by someone else into let this new person knows his past? Or an old partner in crime comes to him asking for help, and he can't leave him alone for whatever reason? Or he discovers that his past activities come back to bite his ass putting a lot of innocents in peril? These are a bunch that come to my mind. I bet there're a lot more. And the same can be said for Dick: his own history, his personality, gaves him lots of potential stories that wouldn't work for Jason.


The overlapping issue is not a problem, because they all are different enough to tell their own stories. Even when sharing the same role.

You could say that Jason as a villain also overlaps a ton of the rogues, too. Or even as a strangled character from the batfam. He can overlap a whole lot of characters. Within the family even.
A character is the stories you can tell with them. It's their backstory, their actual history in the pages, their behaviour, their personality, a lot of actual features. Not just a role, or a gimmick or if they kill or not. Let's take Dick, for example. There're other characters in the fam that are good guys who are detectives and are core members. Babs, for example. Or Kate. Yet there're stories that you can only write with Dick, and Babs, and Kate, because they're more than just that. There're heroes in the DCU who were in the circus or performers, like Zatanna, or Deathman; but you can't write for them just the same stories for each one of them. The're non powered former sidekicks who are not adults in the titans, like Roy; but there're stories that you can write for him and only him. And there're stories that you can write for Dick and Bruce, or Oliver, starting from the same premise, but they'll turn completely different for each of them because they behave, have personalities that are pretty different.

It's like saying that you don't need new teams of titans because they overlap unless you change them to their core, erasing their previous story. Well, sorry, but I strongly disagree.

----------


## Iclifton

> About the overlapping stuff. Yesterday I went to Reddit and wrote this. My post was larger, but because I repeated a few points that I've already written here before, I'll share here what I hadn't yet.
> 
> 
> 
> The overlapping issue is not a problem, because they all are different enough to tell their own stories. Even when sharing the same role.
> 
> You could say that Jason as a villain also overlaps a ton of the rogues, too. Or even as a strangled character from the batfam. He can overlap a whole lot of characters. Within the family even.
> A character is the stories you can tell with them. It's their backstory, their actual history in the pages, their behaviour, their personality, a lot of actual features. Not just a role, or a gimmick or if they kill or not. Let's take Dick, for example. There're other characters in the fam that are good guys who are detectives and are core members. Babs, for example. Or Kate. Yet there're stories that you can only write with Dick, and Babs, and Kate, because they're more than just that. There're heroes in the DCU who were in the circus or performers, like Zatanna, or Deathman; but you can't write for them just the same stories for each one of them. The're non powered former sidekicks who are not adults in the titans, like Roy; but there're stories that you can write for him and only him. And there're stories that you can write for Dick and Bruce, or Oliver, starting from the same premise, but they'll turn completely different for each of them because they behave, have personalities that are pretty different.
> 
> It's like saying that you don't need new teams of titans because they overlap unless you change them to their core, erasing their previous story. Well, sorry, but I strongly disagree.


But he does not overlap with the villains because of his history as Robin. While there are some select stories you can tell with Jason you cannot tell with other Robins, these are not the ones being told. Additionally, him still being killer or a Batfam outsider does not get rid of the possibility of these stories being told. However, his current status does eliminate the possibility of a ton of other stories that would be unique to him and him alone. I am not saying he cannot have unique stories as he is now. I am saying he is now sharing a bloated space and his potential for unique stories is significantly lower.

----------


## Spideyvinnegar

Idk but all the infos we got until now about the batgirl movie is pretty much reminding me of earth-2 Barbara, you guys think we may get a tie-in to the nightwing movie ? Yeah I know Snyder said Dick is dead in the Affleckverse but I can totally see they just ignoring what he said and just letting it be Jason

----------


## Iclifton

> Idk but all the infos we got until now about the batgirl movie is pretty much reminding me of earth-2 Barbara, you guys think we may get a tie-in to the nightwing movie ? Yeah I know Snyder said Dick is dead in the Affleckverse but I can totally see they just ignoring what he said and just letting it be Jason


Yeah I think they are trying to set up an HBO Max Bat-universe. Since Dick dying isn`t canon yet and they want to do a Red Hood movie I am pretty sure this is the direction they are going in. Hoping Chris Mckay is not attached. Do not really like his pitch and his last live action move sucked.

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## Zaresh

> But he does not overlap with the villains because of his history as Robin. While there are some select stories you can tell with Jason you cannot tell with other Robins, these are not the ones being told. Additionally, him still being killer or a Batfam outsider does not get rid of the possibility of these stories being told. However, his current status does eliminate the possibility of a ton of other stories that would be unique to him and him alone. I am not saying he cannot have unique stories as he is now. I am saying he is now sharing a bloated space and his potential for unique stories is significantly lower.


That could be said for many, many character in the batmythos, almost every time, for the last 20 years, actually. Why do we have Black Mask when we have Two Faces? They're fairly similar, these two guys. You know why it's so easy to switch villains in events? Because most of them are so simplified these days that they're barely gimmicks. One thing I can say that I liked from Morrison's run in Batman was his villains, precisely. Except for Jason, he really worked some nice bad guys that only needed some more depth to them for creating more stories. I'm still waiting for writers to give it to them, but looking at how we're simplifying every villain to plain gimmicks, I could as well wait sitting in a very cozy and comfortable coach with a cup of cocoa and a very big book at hand or three. You can see why I'm absolutely not trilled with the idea of my favourite character turning into a villain who's just going to be there to be fuel for the hero, one week every year. Let alone a character that I think it's not villain material and has been mistreated so often since its creation, it's not even fun. Why has to be Jason again? This is me two years ago when Jason was again the character used to be the suspect of being the bad guy in Leviatan. This is me again a year ago when the Future State storyline came and Jason was again apparently the rotten one of the bunch. Well, neither of those stories turned bad, Jason wasn't the one behind the Leviatan stuff, nor was he aligned with the magistrate in Future State. Those two stories are arguably fitting for Jason, because his background. But the initial bait for the story? It was simplistic, reducing the character to one trait, playing that one trait, and ignoring anything else. Imagine those stories did used Jason as a plain villain, and he was the bad guy for some really weak reason that goes against what he was before. Me, as a reader that loves the character, I would be so mad at the writer. How in depth do you usually see a villains point of view that makes him interesting? Not often, because the readers usually don't want to know about the villain, unless they're somewhat bizarre and espectacular. Most of them want to read the heroes being heroic. You can pull the villain card well, like in Under the Hood, or like Loki was in the DCU, who, btw, ends up being pretty antiheroic or even heroic. But you can't pull that card many times, because readers don't want antagonists like that. They want danger and threats to overcome and defeat. An antagonistic Jason once in a while? Sure. If it's well written, I bet I can enjoy a lot that story: Jason can tell that story. But I don't want that as the default status for my favourite character. Statistically, It's probably not going to end good for him.

The way of doing things right, is writing stories for these characters that make them shine, give the readers a view of how these characters are, what's their former story, how have they lived, what have they gone through. But that takes time and luck, and talent. But mostly time and luck. We don't know what stories are going to turn good and what stories are going to turn meh or bad until they're there and they're executed. Writing is a creative process, it's not science, there's not a recipe for inspiration and each writer draws their inspiration from their own life experience and knowledge. Those stories will come, eventually. Same as they came. But I don't know when that's going to happen, or if it will be sooner or later. At least, putting him clearly in the side of the good guys gives him levelage, because there're more stories with good guys than bad guys in the lead role.

----------


## Iclifton

> That could be said for many, many character in the batmythos, almost every time, for the last 20 years, actually. Why do we have Black Mask when we have Two Faces? They're fairly similar, these two guys. You know why it's so easy to switch villains in events? Because most of them are so simplified these days that they're barely gimmicks. One thing I can say that I liked from Morrison's run in Batman was his villains, precisely. Except for Jason, he really worked some nice bad guys that only needed some more depth to them for creating more stories. I'm still waiting for writers to give it to them, but looking at how we're simplifying every villain to plain gimmicks, I could as well wait sitting in a very cozy and comfortable coach with a cup of cocoa and a very big book at hand or three. You can see why I'm absolutely not trilled with the idea of my favourite character turning into a villain who's just going to be there to be fuel for the hero, one week every year. Let alone a character that I think it's not villain material and has been mistreated so often since its creation, it's not even fun. Why has to be Jason again? This is me two years ago when Jason was again the character used to be the suspect of being the bad guy in Leviatan. This is me again a year ago when the Future State storyline came and Jason was again apparently the rotten one of the bunch. Well, neither of those stories turned bad, Jason wasn't the one behind the Leviatan stuff, nor was he aligned with the magistrate in Future State. Those two stories are arguably fitting for Jason, because his background. But the initial bait for the story? It was simplistic, reducing the character to one trait, playing that one trait, and ignoring anything else. Imagine those stories did used Jason as a plain villain, and he was the bad guy for some really weak reason that goes against what he was before. Me, as a reader that loves the character, I would be so mad at the writer. How in depth do you usually see a villains point of view that makes him interesting? Not often, because the readers usually don't want to know about the villain, unless they're somewhat bizarre and espectacular. Most of them want to read the heroes being heroic. You can pull the villain card well, like in Under the Hood, or like Loki was in the DCU, who, btw, ends up being pretty antiheroic or even heroic. But you can't pull that card many times, because readers don't want antagonists like that. They want danger and threats to overcome and defeat. An antagonistic Jason once in a while? Sure. If it's well written, I bet I can enjoy a lot that story: Jason can tell that story. But I don't want that as the default status for my favourite character. Statistically, It's probably not going to end good for him.
> 
> The way of doing things right, is writing stories for these characters that make them shine, give the readers a view of how these characters are, what's their former story, how have they lived, what have they gone through. But that takes time and luck, and talent. But mostly time and luck. We don't know what stories are going to turn good and what stories are going to turn meh or bad until they're there and they're executed. Writing is a creative process, it's not science, there's not a recipe for inspiration and each writer draws their inspiration from their own life experience and knowledge. Those stories will come, eventually. Same as they came. But I don't know when that's going to happen, or if it will be sooner or later. At least, putting him clearly in the side of the good guys gives him levelage, because there're more stories with good guys than bad guys in the lead role.


Okay, well good point. Jason is now Black Mask to Nightwings Two Face. We all know which villain is more popular and interesting. I am all for getting rid or reinventing villains that fill the same slot as well. Jason does not need to be a straight antagonist. But being hero that does not kill and is a full fledge member of the Batfamily takes away story potential. Where as the opposite is not true.

----------


## Grayson - The Dark Heir

> Okay, well good point. Jason is now Black Mask to Nightwings Two Face. We all know which villain is more popular and interesting. I am all for getting rid or reinventing villains that fill the same slot as well. Jason does not need to be a straight antagonist. But being hero that does not kill and is a full fledge member of the Batfamily takes away story potential. Where as the opposite is not true.


That's the exact same situation Nightwing is in. It doesn't "take away" potential, because being part of the Batfamily is why we have stuff like Gotham Knights and Wayne Family Adventures, where both Dick and Jason are simply parts of the Batfamily. Both seemingly very popular in their respective mediums, both only existing as they do because both characters have the potential to be tied so heavily to the family, etc. 

You don't have to like it when it comes to Jason or Dick, I usually don't like how Nightwing is treated in Batbooks after all. It's just the thing you're asking for isn't just ignoring Jason's original characterization as Robin, which is what I was talking about earlier, but also all of his character development since 2011. Which is still reasonable, just not something I personally agree with.

If we're going to talk about limiting characters, the Detective Comics Annual is a good example I think. On first glance, it just looks like an issue where Dick is Bruce's sidekick. Yet, the entire issue is about the impact Dick has on Bruce and on Gotham, and it's real neat. Nothing crazy, but it was nice to see Dick function as not just Bruce's conscience as he usually does, but Gotham's as a whole. Dick doesn't need to be in Gotham, and he doesn't need to be on this case. He's here because he wants to be. At least, that's the in-universe reason. The obvious reason for this is because he's the Batcharacter with the deepest connection with Bruce. 

The thing about the 'Tec Annual is that you could tell the same general story, same bones at least, with any Robin. Or even Batfamily member. I mean, you could even replace Bruce in this too. The story could've been about Dick and Steph, or Kate and Duke, etc. These characters overlap, that's just how it is. That might "limit" what stories you can tell with them, but it doesn't limit you from telling good stories. Dick is the best example really, since he has no business being in Gotham for a story like this. He shouldn't be a Batcharacter. But he is, so this story happened, and it was nice and sets up a great potential event in Shadows of the Bat. If he was a DCU or Titans character through and through, this story probably wouldn't exist. 

So yeah, overall, I don't think throwing out a character's previous characterizations is a bad thing, since it's happened before and people like the reinvented characters, I just like the Nightwing Annual for bringing Dick and Jason's past relationship back to where it used to be. Like, it's kinda sad that outside of some one-off appearances in each other's books and Bat events, the only time that was ever focused on and done even remotely well was a Lobdell issue.

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## Iclifton

> That's the exact same situation Nightwing is in. It doesn't "take away" potential, because being part of the Batfamily is why we have stuff like Gotham Knights and Wayne Family Adventures, where both Dick and Jason are simply parts of the Batfamily. Both seemingly very popular in their respective mediums, both only existing as they do because both characters have the potential to be tied so heavily to the family, etc. 
> 
> You don't have to like it when it comes to Jason or Dick, I usually don't like how Nightwing is treated in Batbooks after all. It's just the thing you're asking for isn't just ignoring Jason's original characterization as Robin, which is what I was talking about earlier, but also all of his character development since 2011. Which is still reasonable, just not something I personally agree with.
> 
> If we're going to talk about limiting characters, the Detective Comics Annual is a good example I think. On first glance, it just looks like an issue where Dick is Bruce's sidekick. Yet, the entire issue is about the impact Dick has on Bruce and on Gotham, and it's real neat. Nothing crazy, but it was nice to see Dick function as not just Bruce's conscience as he usually does, but Gotham's as a whole. Dick doesn't need to be in Gotham, and he doesn't need to be on this case. He's here because he wants to be. At least, that's the in-universe reason. The obvious reason for this is because he's the Batcharacter with the deepest connection with Bruce. 
> 
> The thing about the 'Tec Annual is that you could tell the same general story, same bones at least, with any Robin. Or even Batfamily member. I mean, you could even replace Bruce in this too. The story could've been about Dick and Steph, or Kate and Duke, etc. These characters overlap, that's just how it is. That might "limit" what stories you can tell with them, but it doesn't limit you from telling good stories. Dick is the best example really, since he has no business being in Gotham for a story like this. He shouldn't be a Batcharacter. But he is, so this story happened, and it was nice and sets up a great potential event in Shadows of the Bat. If he was a DCU or Titans character through and through, this story probably wouldn't exist. 
> 
> So yeah, overall, I don't think throwing out a character's previous characterizations is a bad thing, since it's happened before and people like the reinvented characters, I just like the Nightwing Annual for bringing Dick and Jason's past relationship back to where it used to be. Like, it's kinda sad that outside of some one-off appearances in each other's books and Bat events, the only time that was ever focused on and done even remotely well was a Lobdell issue.


Dicks not quite in the same situation. He has a plethora of great stories and at least has a sustainable status quo. But yeah, he is part of the Bat franchise so  he is going to play a part in crossovers. But at least in his own book he is the focus. Jason has no definable status quo anymore. Even if the same could be said for other characters, great, but that’s why Jason swerving in this direction is so disappointing. He had potential to be more.

What about the version of Jason that was a clone of Dick? You want to ignore that, right? The original version. But yes your right. I am not a fan of how Jason has developed since the New 52. I feel it’s wasted his potential to be something new and different. To each his own. But to me he has become a much less interesting duller version of himself. Out of curiosity, what are Jason’s  best stories since 2011. To my knowledge and everything I’ve read has ranged from mediocre to average-bad.

I don’t mind him being mellowed out from the Under The Red Hood days but its gone too far. What’s funny is I actually thought the opening of the annual with Jason killing that car was cooler than anything he’s done since 2011.

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## JackJustMetMartin

FFudp4hXoAIvlUP.jpgFFS2G2KWQBARAhE.jpg


I really appreciate the effort made here to modernize the Discowing costume

https://twitter.com/Kalhuset/status/1464996605371813889

https://twitter.com/Kalhuset/status/1466939724141109255

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## Frontier

> FFudp4hXoAIvlUP.jpgFFS2G2KWQBARAhE.jpg
> 
> 
> I really appreciate the effort made here to modernize the Discowing costume
> 
> https://twitter.com/Kalhuset/status/1464996605371813889
> 
> https://twitter.com/Kalhuset/status/1466939724141109255


Dicks' Robin costume looks better than Jason because Jason's looks too much like the New 52 Robin costume  :Stick Out Tongue: .

Not a bad update to Discowing but is that supposed to be extra pouches attached to the Batsymbol?

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## AmiMizuno

In order for Dick to not be a sidekick he can't get in the family all events without Perez and Wolfman we would never have Nightwing. They dc wanted to kill Dick. Now he is back in Bruce's shadow it's never suppose to be repeat the same line of Dick being in Bruce's shadow. It's all due to Bateditors not wanting Dick to be equal to Bruce. They also make him dumber since all the other Robins steal his skills. He gone to being independent to a sidekic. Despite how many think he is balanced because he has a Titan book means nothin when the titans can't have their own interactions with Dick or have their own big events In his and their own comics. If people actually cared for Nightwing there would be less Batfam and more Dick and titans because without many Books Bruce has they can easily just have Dick show up there with the same storyline because Bruce's storyline messes with his own storyline. So really most Nightwing fans just want want to be a sidekick because he already did the storyline of him getting out for Bruce's shadow and so you guys want the Batfam to show up but the issue is with the number of Batmanevents we can't have the Batfam show up and Dick be events it's causing his comics to mess with his own stories and cuauses him to look like a sidekick. Because we can't have but so many Batman events he can be in if we can't also have the same number of titans events. Dick is both a Titan and Batfam. You can't reject that or take that away. We need both to play apart in his comics not just in TTA or another Titan comics this is why he is all other the place because we need him for every Batman event. We can't have this. We need him to be to have other relations outside of Batfam if he is important. But it's only ever word only with Bateditors and people claiming to be fans since all the money always is Batfam when they cut off Dick starting to get other heroes in his comics. To just having Batfam. It's time to see Dc sees him has a joke and if no one cares it's time to just reboot him as Robin. Why should he be Nightwing when all the writers treat him as Robin. The only reason we got Superman and Jon is because Tom writers. If anyone here cares we need more than just one crossover lien this. We need more titans , and other heroes to crossover. If you want more of Batfam than you want his character to die. Because we already have him showing up in Bruce's books

Instead of ruining his own comics. The best ways is just having release comics events lien fear event has their own thing so they don't have to stop storyline. Another thing another Tom is it feels Babs is the main character because Dick needs her help for everything Hero related. Also everything first more love story than heartless based. Tom said he wanted Dick to be a A-lister where is that ? We now have another crossover which likely means a pause in the storyline. I don't think Tom cares about Dick even.  Dc and Wb cares Dc a low priority and we can tell


All the Robins steal his skills and he is inept when other bat mains are with him. Y should he be Nightwing. Dick us just going to be bad. And fall into the same thing staying with the Bateditors 


I think this is all I will say. I don't see how many see how too much with one side is bad. He is a Titan respect in his comics too. When are we gonna to see a big event for a crossover with the titans too

----------


## Spideyvinnegar

Damn now that's a real long post just to cry about titans at end lol

----------


## Rac7d*



----------


## Restingvoice

by Tom Reilly (The Thing, Thor: The Worthy)

----------


## Lady Nightwing

That's really lovely. I love the facial expression

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## Iclifton

> by Tom Reilly (The Thing, Thor: The Worthy)


Woah, love it. Really looks like the the grown up version of the original 1940s Grayson. Ive always wanted a Nightwing run that captured the fun of Golden Age comics with a modernized run

----------


## Frontier

> 


It's a Robins' rite of passage...

----------


## Iclifton

> In order for Dick to not be a sidekick he can't get in the family all events without Perez and Wolfman we would never have Nightwing. They dc wanted to kill Dick. Now he is back in Bruce's shadow it's never suppose to be repeat the same line of Dick being in Bruce's shadow. It's all due to Bateditors not wanting Dick to be equal to Bruce. They also make him dumber since all the other Robins steal his skills. He gone to being independent to a sidekic. Despite how many think he is balanced because he has a Titan book means nothin when the titans can't have their own interactions with Dick or have their own big events In his and their own comics. If people actually cared for Nightwing there would be less Batfam and more Dick and titans because without many Books Bruce has they can easily just have Dick show up there with the same storyline because Bruce's storyline messes with his own storyline. So really most Nightwing fans just want want to be a sidekick because he already did the storyline of him getting out for Bruce's shadow and so you guys want the Batfam to show up but the issue is with the number of Batmanevents we can't have the Batfam show up and Dick be events it's causing his comics to mess with his own stories and cuauses him to look like a sidekick. Because we can't have but so many Batman events he can be in if we can't also have the same number of titans events. Dick is both a Titan and Batfam. You can't reject that or take that away. We need both to play apart in his comics not just in TTA or another Titan comics this is why he is all other the place because we need him for every Batman event. We can't have this. We need him to be to have other relations outside of Batfam if he is important. But it's only ever word only with Bateditors and people claiming to be fans since all the money always is Batfam when they cut off Dick starting to get other heroes in his comics. To just having Batfam. It's time to see Dc sees him has a joke and if no one cares it's time to just reboot him as Robin. Why should he be Nightwing when all the writers treat him as Robin. The only reason we got Superman and Jon is because Tom writers. If anyone here cares we need more than just one crossover lien this. We need more titans , and other heroes to crossover. If you want more of Batfam than you want his character to die. Because we already have him showing up in Bruce's books
> 
> Instead of ruining his own comics. The best ways is just having release comics events lien fear event has their own thing so they don't have to stop storyline. Another thing another Tom is it feels Babs is the main character because Dick needs her help for everything Hero related. Also everything first more love story than heartless based. Tom said he wanted Dick to be a A-lister where is that ? We now have another crossover which likely means a pause in the storyline. I don't think Tom cares about Dick even.  Dc and Wb cares Dc a low priority and we can tell
> 
> 
> All the Robins steal his skills and he is inept when other bat mains are with him. Y should he be Nightwing. Dick us just going to be bad. And fall into the same thing staying with the Bateditors 
> 
> 
> I think this is all I will say. I don't see how many see how too much with one side is bad. He is a Titan respect in his comics too. When are we gonna to see a big event for a crossover with the titans too


There’s no DC vendetta against Nightwing. Your reading into it. He just happens to be apart of DCs most profitable franchise, nobody gets as much a push as Bruce. The only comic readers who belittle Dick and say he’s in Bruce’s shadow is other Grayson fans. News flash, 99% of superhero’s are in Batman’s shadow.

Even in the Wolfman Perez era, your so called “golden age” for the character, he wasn’t a solo hero headlining his own franchise. It was the bat office that made him independent with a monthly book. He’s got a lot more going for him than a lot of other comic chararcters whose fan bases would be lucky to get a book that has a half way decent creative team that goes 12 issues. In fact he’s got alot more going for him than when he was headlining Titans. Now he’s got a monthly book dedicated to him and stars in multiple other monthlies. There’s talk of a solo movie and tv show. He’s one of the main characters in a video game. Our boy is getting exposure. All of this, largely possible because of his ties to Batman.

Genuinely curious, say what you consider to be an A-list creative team was offered the character, would you prefer they write a Nightwing solo or Titans book with Dick as leader?

----------


## Lal

The Nightwing annual is doing really well on Comixology and is the 2nd best seller of the week, surpassing fear state omega and the Batman and Joker annuals - 
https://www.comixology.com/comics-best-sellers

And it seems that last month sales were also pretty good, judging by ICV2 November list - 
https://icv2.com/articles/markets/vi...-november-2021

The Robin & Batman #1 and even the Robins #1 had pretty decent debut sales.

----------


## HsssH

Looks like Taylor is selling real well these days.

----------


## Spideyvinnegar

Really glad to see Taylor doing so well in sales, hope that means he'll stay around for the long haul, can't wait to ser his big surprise on #100

----------


## Drako

> The Nightwing annual is doing really well on Comixology and is the 2nd best seller of the week, surpassing fear state omega and the Batman and Joker annuals - 
> https://www.comixology.com/comics-best-sellers
> 
> And it seems that last month sales were also pretty good, judging by ICV2 November list - 
> https://icv2.com/articles/markets/vi...-november-2021
> 
> The Robin & Batman #1 and even the Robins #1 had pretty decent debut sales.


Cool, i didn't expect Robin & Batman to be so high, but the boost of the first issue helps a lot. 

Nightwing was in Batman 118 briefly alongside Barbara.

----------


## Rac7d*

> The Nightwing annual is doing really well on Comixology and is the 2nd best seller of the week, surpassing fear state omega and the Batman and Joker annuals - 
> https://www.comixology.com/comics-best-sellers
> 
> And it seems that last month sales were also pretty good, judging by ICV2 November list - 
> https://icv2.com/articles/markets/vi...-november-2021
> 
> The Robin & Batman #1 and even the Robins #1 had pretty decent debut sales.



Bat family rules literally there is no logical reason for Nightwing to moove to another creative team

----------


## Iclifton

> Cool, i didn't expect Robin & Batman to be so high, but the boost of the first issue helps a lot. 
> 
> Nightwing was in Batman 118 briefly alongside Barbara.


Pumped about Robin and Batman sales! Great book and Id love to see more modern Grayson Robin stories.

----------


## Claude

> Pumped about Robin and Batman sales! Great book and I’d love to see more modern Grayson Robin stories.


Yeah - Lemire sounds done with DC for a bit, but I'd love this book to get a Robin: Year Two.

(Ah well, still cross fingers that this is the era Waid and Mora's Batman and Superman is set in. That Yang run scratched an itch I didn't know I had.)

----------


## AmiMizuno

Due to the recent news what has been your favorite Perez artwork

----------


## John Venus

Nothing sums up Perez's influence on Nightwing than this:

----------


## Frontier

> Nothing sums up Perez's influence on Nightwing than this:


He drew an amazing Dick (but that goes without saying).

----------


## Rac7d*

Nothing will ever compare to Gotham or Metropolis

but If Taylor can help Bludhaven reach the heights of Star city or Central I'll be happy

----------


## Badou

> but If Taylor can help Bludhaven reach the heights of Star city or Central I'll be happy


You could argue it is already bigger than Star City and it is still worthless, lol.

----------


## Avi

> Due to the recent news what has been your favorite Perez artwork


This was one of the very first pages I saw of Perez's Dick Grayson, and I still like it a lot.







> Nothing sums up Perez's influence on Nightwing than this:


Very true!

----------


## Rac7d*

> You could argue it is already bigger than Star City and it is still worthless, lol.



I can offer no company for your misery sir

I am loving this run and the entire state of Nightwing in comics.  I am just so grateful

----------


## dietrich

> Pumped about Robin and Batman sales! Great book and I’d love to see more modern Grayson Robin stories.


Agreed. Everything about this title hit's the spot. I hope we get more of these. We need more stories of Dick Grayson Robin with a modern vibe.

----------


## AmiMizuno

Am I the only one who liked the way many artists draws the disco suit? Since many have show it can still work in this modern era. I'm not saying they should go back to it. Just that it can work

----------


## bearman

I am still of the opinion that a “Nightwing and…” team up book would be a great success…. Wally, Damian, as well as any and all Titans and Batboys and Giirl… plus, the rest of the DC universe, all of whom know and like Dick. A book like that could easily reposition him as the center of the universe, as he fights alongside Diana, Midnighter, Jonn, ect.
Pay attention DC… don’t just ride this wave, turn it into a tsunami.

----------


## HsssH

Nightwing: The Brave and the Bold

I think that Bludhaven is in third spot by default since other cities suck even more.

----------


## Rac7d*

Tom just signed an exclusive contract with DC. He’s definitely on Nightwing for a hood while

----------


## Drako

> Tom just signed an exclusive contract with DC. He’s definitely on Nightwing for a hood while


Yeah, he stated i think last week that he is planning on staying in this book for the long haul. Hopefully we can see some other projects connecting to Nightwing.

I would actually like to see him being the next Titans writer.

That's good news for me, especially after the sad news from Perez yesterday.

----------


## Vordan

Taylor taking over Titans is not that bad an idea.

----------


## Claude

+1 for Taylor on Titans. His very fluffy way of pushing his leads as cuddly and amazing is something that franchise could really benefit from, Nightwing synergy aside.

----------


## Frontier

Now that I think about it, I wouldn't mind Taylor on the Titans.

----------


## HsssH

This is probably me overthinking things because I really like the idea of him doing Titans... but Redondo gongratulated him with TT Go gif.

----------


## Godlike13

I don’t know know about Taylor on Titans. You can see with his Nightwing he tends to be character focused. I don’t think that’s what the Titans needs. I actually think when it comes to the Titans the characters need to take a back seat to the team itself.

----------


## Frontier

> I don’t know know about Taylor on Titans. You can see with his Nightwing he tends to be character focused. I don’t think that’s what the Titans needs. I actually think when it comes to the Titans the characters need to take a back seat to the team itself.


But what really is a team without characters unless the point is just showing them...doing hero stuff successfully, I guess?

----------


## Godlike13

> But what really is a team without characters unless the point is just showing them...doing hero stuff successfully, I guess?


Well that’s my point, what is Titans as a team. A question that never gets explored as they get distracted by its characters. And so the Titans as a team just becomes an ensemble solo for characters that have nowhere else to go.

----------


## Frontier

> Well that’s my point, what is Titans as a team. A question that never gets explored as they get distracted by its characters. And so the Titans as a team just becomes an ensemble solo for characters that have nowhere else to go.


I think at the end of the day it's important to have good character work to balance out the Superheroics. I don't think there needs to be a direct mission statement for a team.

----------


## Badou

> I can offer no company for your misery sir
> 
> I am loving this run and the entire state of Nightwing in comics.  I am just so grateful


That's fine. I didn't say you couldn't enjoy it, but I'm confident I'll be proven right again with time. Even with Taylor's run now more people seem to be coming to my side in that while the art is amazing the story is kind of lacking. It was the same with Teen Titans Academy. You had such a large group of readers trying to argue the school setting was the best idea and direction, but it was obviously not going to work because the franchise isn't built for it. It's the same with Bludhaven in how the fundamental flaws will plateau the story like what always happens.

----------


## Godlike13

> I think at the end of the day it's important to have good character work to balance out the Superheroics. I don't think there needs to be a direct mission statement for a team.


The Titans as a team needs to be established as something legit if they want it to ever be taken seriously again. Which never happens as the each new volume gets lost in its character work. Theres no balance with the Titans anymore. Being a place for its characters is the sole purpose of that team now. But those characters don’t draw. It’s the team that’s the draw, and they have taken that for granted. So now the team is just seen as a AAA team for C-list characters to have moments.

----------


## Frontier

> The Titans as team needs to be established as something legit if they want it to ever be taken seriously again. Which never happens as the each new volume gets lost in its character work. Theres no balance with the Titans anymore. Being a place for its characters is the sole purpose of that team now. But those characters don’t draw. It’s the team that’s the draw, and they have taken that for granted. So now the team is just seen as a AAA team for C-list characters to have moments.


I think it's more like gets lost in bad character work but I think you can show them doing great team stuff while showing off the characters.

----------


## Iclifton

> The Titans as team needs to be established as something legit if they want it to ever be taken seriously again. Which never happens as the each new volume gets lost in its character work. Theres no balance with the Titans anymore. Being a place for its characters is the sole purpose of that team now. But those characters don’t draw. It’s the team that’s the draw, and they have taken that for granted. So now the team is just seen as a AAA team for C-list characters to have moments.


Totally agree. I like the character centric approach for the Nightwing solo, but the Titans need a "big idea/concept" writer. They need a writer who is going to add to the mythology the way the Wolfman/Perez era did while giving the team a reason to exist outside of the characters just having grown up together.

While I hope to keep Taylor on Nightwing for as long as possible, I do not think he would be the best fit for Titans.

----------


## Vordan

Capullo drawing Nightwing. Dare I hope he’s working on the Nightwing BL book with Scott Snyder?

----------


## Drako

> Capullo drawing Nightwing. Dare I hope he’s working on the Nightwing BL book with Scott Snyder?


Hum... so he might be doing NW: Parabola with Snyder. Cool!

----------


## WonderNight

> Nightwing: The Brave and the Bold
> 
> I think that Bludhaven is in third spot by default since other cities suck even more.


I don't really care for bludhaven but if it's nightwings home than at least make it feel different. I what to look at a picture of the city and say "oh ah that's bludhaven".

----------


## Pohzee

Taylor on the Titans would 100% give them the mission statement that both Nightwing and the new Superman book have. Probably paired with saving cats in trees and polar bears.

----------


## Restingvoice

> Capullo drawing Nightwing. Dare I hope he’s working on the Nightwing BL book with Scott Snyder?


It's armored. Why is it always armored? I already answered in the past why is it always armored yet I ask anyway.

Yeah I'm okay with Taylor on Titans, not because I think he's good or fit my preference, but because he knows how to put a book on the map

----------


## Avi

> Capullo drawing Nightwing. Dare I hope hes working on the Nightwing BL book with Scott Snyder?


Hmmm, I usually like Capullo's Nightwing but the glimpses of armour... At least there is no chin guard...

Didn't expect the BL book to even be in the works anymore but if it is, good. I just wonder if it might feel redundant even it's made by Capullo and Snyder because we are basically getting "Nightwing in a Gotham without Batman" in Tec. Though plans might have changed a little, it's been a year since we heard anything.

----------


## MakeNightwingGreatAgain

> I don't really care for bludhaven but if it's nightwings home than at least make it feel different. I what to look at a picture of the city and say "oh ah that's bludhaven".


I actually used to believe Bludhaven could work with some tweaks, but honestly, Dixon's and Devin Grayson's concepts for Dick have not aged well and are part of the reason why Bludhaven and many of Nightwing's stories don't work well anymore. Because these writers are operating on a status quo that wasn't even fully fleshed out or given the time to actually be worth something. Every writer comes on claiming to want to make big changes for Nightwing and plunge him towards A-List, but then use the same stories, villains and city to do it in. Bludhaven never had the same thought or time put into it as Gotham did. Dick as Batman had more staying power than Dick as Nightwing in Dixon's and Devin Grayson's run.

While I love Dick on his own forging his own path, I also have concluded that Bludhaven is just too similar to Gotham and anytime we recycle the late 90s-early 2000 era, we are doing Gotham/Batman Lite. Dick never stays in one place. He grew up in a traveling circus. He should have stories more similar to Batman Inc in that he does globe trotting adventures. I don't mind his home base being Bludhaven, and when he isn't working for something like Spyral or Justice League, he would patrol the streets of Bludhaven, but his major stories shouldn't take place there. I mean Bludhaven doesn't even have a cast of characters. Why Donna, Wally or even Tim Drake can't move to Bludhaven, I have no idea why. Or why couldn't Dick move to some place like Star City or stay in Chicago or New York City?

Bludhaven is just was never IT for Dick. I don't even know what even is IT for Dick anymore. It's kinda like they just throw ideas at the wall and see if it sticks. He never really grows past the past. Even his retconned past with Babs is constantly thrown in our faces with not much substance. His past with titans is consistently changed to where I question if it even matters anymore. Even his time as Robin is significantly reduced. At the rate Dick is going, I don't think he really works as a character anymore because instead of creating his own unique status quo; they are doing Batman-Lite (Dixon Era) or Spider-Man lite (Tom Taylor now). These Nightwing stories don't feel like Nightwing stories, instead they feel like Batman or Spiderman wearing a Nightwing costume. I really dont know if Nightwing can actually be fixed anymore becuase it just feels like most of the writers and the editorial teams (Titans and Batman) dont care enough about him to push him forward.

----------


## Grayson - The Dark Heir

> Capullo drawing Nightwing. Dare I hope hes working on the Nightwing BL book with Scott Snyder?


This looks like Gotham Knights Nightwing, and given the Owls involvement, I'm guessing that's exactly what it's for.

----------


## WonderNight

> I actually used to believe Bludhaven could work with some tweaks, but honestly, Dixon's and Devin Grayson's concepts for Dick have not aged well and are part of the reason why Bludhaven and many of Nightwing's stories don't work well anymore. Because these writers are operating on a status quo that wasn't even fully fleshed out or given the time to actually be worth something. Every writer comes on claiming to want to make big changes for Nightwing and plunge him towards A-List, but then use the same stories, villains and city to do it in. Bludhaven never had the same thought or time put into it as Gotham did. Dick as Batman had more staying power than Dick as Nightwing in Dixon's and Devin Grayson's run.
> 
> While I love Dick on his own forging his own path, I also have concluded that Bludhaven is just too similar to Gotham and anytime we recycle the late 90s-early 2000 era, we are doing Gotham/Batman Lite. Dick never stays in one place. He grew up in a traveling circus. He should have stories more similar to Batman Inc in that he does globe trotting adventures. I don't mind his home base being Bludhaven, and when he isn't working for something like Spyral or Justice League, he would patrol the streets of Bludhaven, but his major stories shouldn't take place there. I mean Bludhaven doesn't even have a cast of characters. Why Donna, Wally or even Tim Drake can't move to Bludhaven, I have no idea why. Or why couldn't Dick move to some place like Star City or stay in Chicago or New York City?
> 
> Bludhaven is just was never IT for Dick. I don't even know what even is IT for Dick anymore. It's kinda like they just throw ideas at the wall and see if it sticks. He never really grows past the past. Even his retconned past with Babs is constantly thrown in our faces with not much substance. His past with titans is consistently changed to where I question if it even matters anymore. Even his time as Robin is significantly reduced. At the rate Dick is going, I don't think he really works as a character anymore because instead of creating his own unique status quo; they are doing Batman-Lite (Dixon Era) or Spider-Man lite (Tom Taylor now). These Nightwing stories don't feel like Nightwing stories, instead they feel like Batman or Spiderman wearing a Nightwing costume. I really dont know if Nightwing can actually be fixed anymore becuase it just feels like most of the writers and the editorial teams (Titans and Batman) dont care enough about him to push him forward.


Yeah I agree with this. One of the main problems is that his core conspet doesn't work. It's make dick into his own Batman. But it should be make nightwing into something unique that fits dicks. Nightwing should be a solo globetrotting dcu centric hero first! The city based street level story's should be for him in Gotham and bat family. Otherwise nightwing always be just another Robin. But I see a lot of what that. So it whatever!

----------


## Badou

The solution is really simple. Just move Dick back to Gotham and let Gotham be his home and move on from Bludhaven or other cities. Gotham is the only city he has a deep personal connection to that has characters he actually cares about in it and is filled with villains and supporting characters readers are actually interested in. Bludhaven will never be that. It has to drag characters from Gotham to prop itself up because it can't stand on its own. All Bludahven is it a cheap imitation of a Gotham or Hell's Kitchen which makes creators write Nightwing as a cardboard cutout of a generic superhero and creates uninspired stories. 

His solo book should be split between him going on missions around the world and him returning "home" to Gotham for more street level stories. That is putting the character in the best position to succeed. He isn't anchored to a city with nothing in it like Bludahven that writers are constantly struggling to flesh out that he has to "protect" and he is free to travel or stay at home where the writer can pick and choose what they want. It allows the character the most mobility, which should be key to Dick's character. His relationship with Babs isn't impeded because Dick isn't forced to be in another city all the time, and all the fans of Dick doing globetrotting stories can get them because Dick isn't forced to be in a city as the sole hero in it like in Bludhaven. Gotham has plenty of other heroes to take up any slack, but it is also large enough where you can write solo stories for multiple ongoing series. 

The Young Justice show figured this out. They had Dick be based in Gotham while setting up missions to do around the world. They just made Bludhaven a section of Gotham, which it basically has always been anyway. So if you want to write a story where Dick is trying to uncover some mystery of the Court of Owls in Gotham, or fighting the Riddler, you can do that, and if you want to write a story where Dick is chasing Deathstroke around the world or trying to fight against some global crime syndicate you can to that too all without having to try and reformat these concepts to fit with Bludhaven. To me this is just such an easy solution.

----------


## Iclifton

> The solution is really simple. Just move Dick back to Gotham and let Gotham be his home and move on from Bludhaven or other cities. Gotham is the only city he has a deep personal connection to that has characters he actually cares about in it and is filled with villains and supporting characters readers are actually interested in. Bludhaven will never be that. It has to drag characters from Gotham to prop itself up because it can't stand on its own. All Bludahven is it a cheap imitation of a Gotham or Hell's Kitchen which makes creators write Nightwing as a cardboard cutout of a generic superhero and creates uninspired stories. 
> 
> His solo book should be split between him going on missions around the world and him returning "home" to Gotham for more street level stories. That is putting the character in the best position to succeed. He isn't anchored to a city with nothing in it like Bludahven that writers are constantly struggling to flesh out that he has to "protect" and he is free to travel or stay at home where the writer can pick and choose what they want. It allows the character the most mobility, which should be key to Dick's character. His relationship with Babs isn't impeded because Dick isn't forced to be in another city all the time, and all the fans of Dick doing globetrotting stories can get them because Dick isn't forced to be in a city as the sole hero in it like in Bludhaven. Gotham has plenty of other heroes to take up any slack, but it is also large enough where you can write solo stories for multiple ongoing series. 
> 
> The Young Justice show figured this out. They had Dick be based in Gotham while setting up missions to do around the world. They just made Bludhaven a section of Gotham, which it basically has always been anyway. So if you want to write a story where Dick is trying to uncover some mystery of the Court of Owls in Gotham, or fighting the Riddler, you can do that, and if you want to write a story where Dick is chasing Deathstroke around the world or trying to fight against some global crime syndicate you can to that too all without having to try and reformat these concepts to fit with Bludhaven. To me this is just such an easy solution.


This sounds terrible. No one wants so see Dick based out of Gotham. If you want to see international stories, great, have him do those and come back to Bludhaven. He already gets bashed by Nightwing fans for being in Bruce`s shadow and being a sidekick. At least Bludhaven is his own. He can come to Gotham for crossovers but not be tied to it. If people think his book is derailed by Batfamily crossovers now, it is nothing compared to taking place in Gotham. Look how New 52 went. Gotham would cap his potential. At least you can do anything you want with the character and the city when you have him placed in Bludhaven. Younh Justice is an ensemble show. If they made a solo Nightwing show I can guarantee it would not be based out of Gotham with still operational Batman.

The truth is you just prefer an international Nightwing. Which is fine. But Bludhaven is an equally viable route for the character.

----------


## MakeNightwingGreatAgain

> The solution is really simple. Just move Dick back to Gotham and let Gotham be his home and move on from Bludhaven or other cities. Gotham is the only city he has a deep personal connection to that has characters he actually cares about in it and is filled with villains and supporting characters readers are actually interested in. Bludhaven will never be that. It has to drag characters from Gotham to prop itself up because it can't stand on its own. All Bludahven is it a cheap imitation of a Gotham or Hell's Kitchen which makes creators write Nightwing as a cardboard cutout of a generic superhero and creates uninspired stories. 
> 
> His solo book should be split between him going on missions around the world and him returning "home" to Gotham for more street level stories. That is putting the character in the best position to succeed. He isn't anchored to a city with nothing in it like Bludahven that writers are constantly struggling to flesh out that he has to "protect" and he is free to travel or stay at home where the writer can pick and choose what they want. It allows the character the most mobility, which should be key to Dick's character. His relationship with Babs isn't impeded because Dick isn't forced to be in another city all the time, and all the fans of Dick doing globetrotting stories can get them because Dick isn't forced to be in a city as the sole hero in it like in Bludhaven. Gotham has plenty of other heroes to take up any slack, but it is also large enough where you can write solo stories for multiple ongoing series. 
> 
> The Young Justice show figured this out. They had Dick be based in Gotham while setting up missions to do around the world. They just made Bludhaven a section of Gotham, which it basically has always been anyway. So if you want to write a story where Dick is trying to uncover some mystery of the Court of Owls in Gotham, or fighting the Riddler, you can do that, and if you want to write a story where Dick is chasing Deathstroke around the world or trying to fight against some global crime syndicate you can to that too all without having to try and reformat these concepts to fit with Bludhaven. To me this is just such an easy solution.


I agree with everything you said except keeping Dick in Gotham. Gotham is the last place I personally want to see him settle in. Main reason goes back to the point about him becoming Batman-lite. I also think it undermines his entire growth into Nightwing and wanting to branch out on his own. I say just give him a city away from Bludhaven and start from there, really. I actually once thought Boston would be great for Dick because of its culture about research in the science fields. It's a hub for tech start-ups, medical/psychology research and charities. You also cant forget the amazing conspiracies surrounding the Kennedy Family. Massachusetts has a really fun history for Dick to play off. Can't forget about it being home to both MIT and Harvard. I think dick would fit right in!

----------


## Badou

> This sounds terrible. No one wants so see Dick based out of Gotham. If you want to see international stories, great, have him do those and come back to Bludhaven. He already gets bashed by Nightwing fans for being in Bruce`s shadow and being a sidekick. At least Bludhaven is his own. He can come to Gotham for crossovers but not be tied to it. If people think his book is derailed by Batfamily crossovers now, it is nothing compared to taking place in Gotham. Look how New 52 went. Gotham would cap his potential. At least you can do anything you want with the character and the city when you have him placed in Bludhaven. Younh Justice is an ensemble show. If they made a solo Nightwing show I can guarantee it would not be based out of Gotham with still operational Batman.
> 
> The truth is you just prefer an international Nightwing. Which is fine. But Bludhaven is an equally viable route for the character.


No, I prefer Dick to be in a setting that actually has valuable assets that you can use for stories. Bludhaven is a wasteland of nothing that after 25 years has only produced Blockbuster, which is incredibly pathetic. Gotham is where Dick grew up, is where his actual friends and family are located, is filled with countless villains and characters Dick has a log history with, and can support plenty of solo stories from multiple characters. Robin and Batgirl had ongoings in Gotham at the same time with Batman and no one complained about it, but for Nightwing it is a problem somehow? Even Red Hood had ongoings set in Gotham where as Nightwing only had that small Amusement Mile arc be set in Gotham during the New 52. So he hasn't really been based in Gotham for an extended time in decades but people want to dismiss it. 

This entire notion that Bludhaven allows Dick's character some freedom from Gotham or Batman where you can do anything with him isn't true at all. The stories prove that isn't the case because they don't really use him like you claim they are. Bludahven doesn't protect his character or is allowing him super unique and creative stories. He constantly has to return to Gotham if something happens, or if he doesn't he gets blamed for not being there, and all Bludahven stories are the most generic and uninspired solo hero stories that you can imagine where they have to drag assets from Gotham anyway to try and turn Bludhaven into something useable. There is nothing unique about them. You think Bludhaven gives him separation from Batman, but it limits him more because it forces these writers to write him as being tethered to some city he has no actual deep ties to. So it constantly feels like he is just imitating being Batman or Daredevil all the time. In Bludhaven Nightwing isn't just a Batman knockoff but now he is a Batman knockoff in a Gotham knockoff so the similarities are compounded which makes it even worse. 

Having Gotham be Dick's home and letting him go between globetrotting and street level stories is simplest solution, because Dick's character is at his best when he has mobility. The freedom to go and do anything, but being anchored to some city that has nothing in it will always be a weight holding him back.

----------


## WonderNight

> No, I prefer Dick to be in a setting that actually has valuable assets that you can use for stories. Bludhaven is a wasteland of nothing that after 25 years has only produced Blockbuster, which is incredibly pathetic. Gotham is where Dick grew up, is where his actual friends and family are located, is filled with countless villains and characters Dick has a log history with, and can support plenty of solo stories from multiple characters. Robin and Batgirl had ongoings in Gotham at the same time with Batman and no one complained about it, but for Nightwing it is a problem somehow? Even Red Hood had ongoings set in Gotham where as Nightwing only had that small Amusement Mile arc be set in Gotham during the New 52. So he hasn't really been based in Gotham for an extended time in decades but people want to dismiss it. 
> 
> This entire notion that Bludhaven allows Dick's character some freedom from Gotham or Batman where you can do anything with him isn't true at all. The stories prove that isn't the case because they don't really use him like you claim they are. Bludahven doesn't protect his character or is allowing him super unique and creative stories. He constantly has to return to Gotham if something happens, or if he doesn't he gets blamed for not being there, and all Bludahven stories are the most generic and uninspired solo hero stories that you can imagine where they have to drag assets from Gotham anyway to try and turn Bludhaven into something useable. There is nothing unique about them. You think Bludhaven gives him separation from Batman, but it limits him more because it forces these writers to write him as being tethered to some city he has no actual deep ties to. So it constantly feels like he is just imitating being Batman or Daredevil all the time. In Bludhaven Nightwing isn't just a Batman knockoff but now he is a Batman knockoff in a Gotham knockoff so the similarities are compounded which makes it even worse. 
> 
> Having Gotham be Dick's home and letting him go between globetrotting and street level stories is simplest solution, because Dick's character is at his best when he has mobility. The freedom to go and do anything, but being anchored to some city that has nothing in it will always be a weight holding him back.


Hey I agree with you man, Nightwing needs his freedom. But I find it funny how the people saying dick can't be based in Gotham because it takes away his independence are the same people who wants him around the bat family all the time. Let that make sense?

Dick didn't leave the place he grew up in to get his independence from a city, he left to get his independence from Bat family!!! Lol

Plus Bludhaven is already just Gotham with a different name anyway.

----------


## Vordan

We just got done with a three month event that derailed Nightwing because he had to run back to Gotham and people are still saying Bludhaven let’s him get out of Bruce’s shadow?  :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## WonderNight

> We just got done with a three month event that derailed Nightwing because he had to run back to Gotham and people are still saying Bludhaven let’s him get out of Bruce’s shadow?


Yeah can someone tell me why is he even in Bludhaven in the first place? If he isn't going to have any space between him and the family then why did he leave Gotham in the first place! What was even the point of him becoming nightwing in the first place? Was he looking for space from the city itself? Or was it Batman and the bat family!

This is why nightwing is stuck at b list.

DC- Dick doesn't want to be Batman, he wants to be his own man!!! 

So let's make him street level, give him a mini Gotham and have bat family as his cast!!! Genius lol.

But I'm with Gotham and bat family if Nightwing was more unique and was more independent first and foremost.

----------


## John Venus

The thing is, while Gotham and Metropolis are reflections of the respective heroes who patrol the city, Bludhaven has always been a knock off of Gotham. If Nightwing has to have his own city then it has to be *his* city and not like some other characters city and Dick shouldn't locked in to just Bludhaven he should also be going to other cities and traveling abroad for missions.    

If Gotham is a combination of New York and Chicago then Bludhaven should be like a San Francisco, Los Angeles and Las Vegas. Much brighter than Gotham but with an underlying darkness at it's core.

----------


## sbp1972

> Capullo drawing Nightwing. Dare I hope hes working on the Nightwing BL book with Scott Snyder?


Just posted another thread about it, but sounds like it's not reality.  Snyder said he has an open offer to DC to do a Nightwing book, but nothing is on the table now or anytime soon.

----------


## Claude

> The thing is, while Gotham and Metropolis are reflections of the respective heroes who patrol the city, Bludhaven has always been a knock off of Gotham. If Nightwing has to have his own city then it has to be *his* city and not like some other characters city and Dick shouldn't locked in to just Bludhaven he should also be going to other cities and traveling abroad for missions.


Ha! Too on the nose for Dick's investment of Alfred's money to transform Bludhaven with monorail and high tech new developments until its a Gotham/Metropolis hybrid?

----------


## Avi

Taylondo were in a position to make Blüdhaven feel as alive as possible by using what was there before, like the Vegas feel the early and mid Rebirth Issues introduced but especially the multitude of characters that fans already liked and wanted to see again. 

Instead, they invented a contrived half-sister, made Blockbuster into even more of a Wilson Fisk, brought back Dick's time with the BPD but not what he did there, and Clancy got a cameo in which she barely felt like herself.

Almost makes me wonder if Taylondo aren't allowed to use these characters - allies and villains alike - because DC doesn't want them around Dick. It's pretty clear at least, that they prefer to see his (old) villains go up against other characters. And I don't mean they can't appear anywhere else or fight someone else, it's simply that Dick's history with characters gets ignored or erased or played-down as soon as they are attached to a new most often bat character.




> This looks like Gotham Knights Nightwing, and given the Owls involvement, I'm guessing that's exactly what it's for.


I can see it, kinda. So it's most likely nothing more than a cover.  :Frown: 

... but if a possible tie-in comic has an Issue focused on every character, I can hope though that Capullo is drawing Gotham Knights: Nightwing #1 with a focus on his history with the Owls. (Who am I kidding, this isn't gonna happen.)

----------


## Restingvoice

> Yeah can someone tell me why is he even in Bludhaven in the first place? If he isn't going to have any space between him and the family then why did he leave Gotham in the first place! What was even the point of him becoming nightwing in the first place? Was he looking for space from the city itself? Or was it Batman and the bat family!
> 
> This is why nightwing is stuck at b list.
> 
> DC- Dick doesn't want to be Batman, he wants to be his own man!!! 
> 
> So let's make him street level, give him a mini Gotham and have bat family as his cast!!! Genius lol.
> 
> But I'm with Gotham and bat family if Nightwing was more unique and was more independent first and foremost.


It's because he's already independent as a college boy and Titans, the first Batman supporting cast who actually left Gotham and stayed that way for a long time (and apparently sold a lot of books in that era), before going back to the family. So they need to keep the illusion of an independent grown-up man to be consistent with his history (which is quite impressive actually, considering they give fuck all to other characters backstory) while at the same time making it close enough to get involved with the family, as *his actual brand status is still Batman's supporting cast.*

Otherwise, they'd just make him stay in Gotham like other adult Batman supporting cast like Catwoman, who also go out of town every once in a while, but mainly stay in Gotham, or Red Hood, who went out of Gotham because he's supposed to border anti-villain and anti-hero, then go back to Gotham the moment he became a family.

----------


## Grayson - The Dark Heir

> The solution is really simple. Just move Dick back to Gotham and let Gotham be his home and move on from Bludhaven or other cities. Gotham is the only city he has a deep personal connection to that has characters he actually cares about in it and is filled with villains and supporting characters readers are actually interested in. Bludhaven will never be that. It has to drag characters from Gotham to prop itself up because it can't stand on its own. All Bludahven is it a cheap imitation of a Gotham or Hell's Kitchen which makes creators write Nightwing as a cardboard cutout of a generic superhero and creates uninspired stories. 
> 
> His solo book should be split between him going on missions around the world and him returning "home" to Gotham for more street level stories. That is putting the character in the best position to succeed. He isn't anchored to a city with nothing in it like Bludahven that writers are constantly struggling to flesh out that he has to "protect" and he is free to travel or stay at home where the writer can pick and choose what they want. It allows the character the most mobility, which should be key to Dick's character. His relationship with Babs isn't impeded because Dick isn't forced to be in another city all the time, and all the fans of Dick doing globetrotting stories can get them because Dick isn't forced to be in a city as the sole hero in it like in Bludhaven. Gotham has plenty of other heroes to take up any slack, but it is also large enough where you can write solo stories for multiple ongoing series. 
> 
> The Young Justice show figured this out. They had Dick be based in Gotham while setting up missions to do around the world. They just made Bludhaven a section of Gotham, which it basically has always been anyway. So if you want to write a story where Dick is trying to uncover some mystery of the Court of Owls in Gotham, or fighting the Riddler, you can do that, and if you want to write a story where Dick is chasing Deathstroke around the world or trying to fight against some global crime syndicate you can to that too all without having to try and reformat these concepts to fit with Bludhaven. To me this is just such an easy solution.


Right on the money imo. 

It's not like it's the greatest status quo, but it makes so much more sense for the character. He needs to be in Gotham whenever it's time for a big Bat story. He's always around his family or they're always around him, which brings him back to Gotham regardless. 

His best stories as a "solo" character has always been in Gotham. A huge part of that is what you were getting at Badou, sine Gotham just inherently has interesting elements and characters to pull from, and Dick has an inherent reason to care about Gotham specifically (which is also why he's always there anyways, whether he lives in Bludhaven or not). 

As it stands now, Dick has two homes according to Taylor's run and all the ongoing Batman books: Gotham and Bludhaven. Only one of them is interesting. If the idea is that he'd be less independent, I have to ask "when has he been independent?" because he clearly hasn't been since he first moved to Bludhaven lol.

----------


## Vordan

> Ha! Too on the nose for Dick's investment of Alfred's money to transform Bludhaven with monorail and high tech new developments until its a Gotham/Metropolis hybrid?


…not a bad idea actually. Still prefer the Rebirth take on it as Las Vegas but Bludhaven as a Gotham/Metropolis hybrid is better than what it is now.

----------


## Avi

> Right on the money imo. 
> 
> It's not like it's the greatest status quo, but it makes so much more sense for the character. He needs to be in Gotham whenever it's time for a big Bat story. He's always around his family or they're always around him, which brings him back to Gotham regardless. 
> 
> *His best stories as a "solo" character has always been in Gotham.* A huge part of that is what you were getting at Badou, sine Gotham just inherently has interesting elements and characters to pull from, and Dick has an inherent reason to care about Gotham specifically (which is also why he's always there anyways, whether he lives in Bludhaven or not). 
> 
> As it stands now, Dick has two homes according to Taylor's run and all the ongoing Batman books: Gotham and Bludhaven. Only one of them is interesting. If the idea is that he'd be less independent, I have to ask "when has he been independent?" because he clearly hasn't been since he first moved to Bludhaven lol.


What are these best solo stories in Gotham?

----------


## JackJustMetMartin

> What are these best solo stories in Gotham?


In fact I'd argue _Nightwing the Untouchable by Sam Humphries_, is one of the best solo Nightwing stories, which is set in Bludhaven.

Bludhaven is fine as a concept, but it's horrendously underdeveloped. He needs a cast of characters to play off.

----------


## Drako

> What are these best solo stories in Gotham?


It looks like Higgin's run is retroactively getting good to fit the new narrative that it's better for him to be in Gotham.
Unless he is talking about the time Dick was Batman.

----------


## MakeNightwingGreatAgain

> Right on the money imo. 
> 
> It's not like it's the greatest status quo, but it makes so much more sense for the character. He needs to be in Gotham whenever it's time for a big Bat story. He's always around his family or they're always around him, which brings him back to Gotham regardless. 
> 
> His best stories as a "solo" character has always been in Gotham. A huge part of that is what you were getting at Badou, sine Gotham just inherently has interesting elements and characters to pull from, and Dick has an inherent reason to care about Gotham specifically (which is also why he's always there anyways, whether he lives in Bludhaven or not). 
> 
> As it stands now, Dick has two homes according to Taylor's run and all the ongoing Batman books: Gotham and Bludhaven. Only one of them is interesting. If the idea is that he'd be less independent, I have to ask "when has he been independent?" because he clearly hasn't been since he first moved to Bludhaven lol.


He was quite independent in his best reviewed runs such as Tomasi, Higgins, King/Seeley and Wolfman. Dixon is really only credited as be the definitive Nightwing writer because he got to write the first Nightwing solo. Besides, if anyone should be the definitive nightwing writer, it should be Wolfman (even though he too had his problems). Being definitive also does not mean being the best imo. The best Nightwing writer to date is still Tomasi and he had only like 14 or so issues. And in Tomasi's run, one of the most praised decisions was taking Dick to NYC. The batfam was still present, but you could tell Tomasi was writing Dick as independent from them as possible. I'm not sure if Tomasi knew before hand that he would have to give Dick up to Grant Morrison to be batman, but you could tell, like always that towards the end of his run, the status quo came back and that's when Dick once again looses his agency as a character. 

Grant Morrison's DickBats was great, but it came at the expense of an amazing direction to take Dick that really could have propelled him forward. But instead, we got everything Tomasi had Dick do by learning to leave the past behind and build a new life for himself nuked and placed everything Dick was moving on from back to the forefront like Tomasi's version of Dick was a fever dream. Dick in my mind isn't a legacy character. He is a hero who created his own mantle, partnered with batman, moved out from under his shadow and then created a new mantle to define himself as an adult shedding his past. Dick was never meant to be Batman, he was meant to be Nightwing/Agent37.

Its 100% ok for Dick to interact with Batfam, be in Gotham and consider Batman and co part of his family. Its the same thing with the Titans. Its ok for Dick to interact with the titans, be in Titans tower and consider Titans part of his family. But Dick's home and family was always wherever he was in the moment and whomever he was with at the time. The whole world is his home and anyone living on earth can be considered his family. I really wish writers would lean into this narrative with Dick that was established with his parents being travelers in the circus. He was always on the move since birth. He is robin because he soars the skies like a bird. He is always up in the air and never firmly planted on the ground. Dick doesnt need to be grounded, he needs to be able to fly. His family needs to be able to fly with him or stay grounded without him and understand his decisions. Its not that he is leaving them, but he needs to keep moving. Gotham, Titansfam and Batfam will always be there for him when he gets back, he doesnt always need to be with them or in Gotham.

----------


## John Venus

> Ha! Too on the nose for Dick's investment of Alfred's money to transform Bludhaven with monorail and high tech new developments until its a Gotham/Metropolis hybrid?


I mean, the city got blown up.  I know there has been a few Crisis but it was a missed opportunity to revamp the city into something different. Say, a group of rich landowners bought most of the land to build casinos and sky scrapers and drove out the survivors and grieving family members of the people who originally lived there.  Dick fighting a group of rich, corporate elites would be an interesting take on him.     




> In fact I'd argue _Nightwing the Untouchable by Sam Humphries_, is one of the best solo Nightwing stories, which is set in Bludhaven.
> 
> Bludhaven is fine as a concept, but it's horrendously underdeveloped. He needs a cast of characters to play off.


Yep, Bludhaven doesn't need to be abandoned. It just needs to be better developed.

----------


## Restingvoice

Bludhaven has too cool a name for me to abandon completely... but that's not a city name I'd give to Dick. Bludhaven sounds like a city you give to... Azrael, maybe. The edgier Batman.

It's a very 90s name I feel

----------


## Godlike13

> What are these best solo stories in Gotham?


The Batman stuff im guessing.

----------


## WonderNight

> The Batman stuff im guessing.


Well nightwing is the ultimate sidekick lol

----------


## dietrich

> Well nightwing is the ultimate sidekick lol


Dick Grayson made Robin the most Iconic sidekick in comics and pop culture [I corrected that for U  :Stick Out Tongue: ]

Nightwing isn't a sidekick. He is part of Batman's Franchise yeah but that's not all he is.

It's unrealistic and unwise to divorce him from the Bat franchise when he's such a critical part of mythos.

DC just needs to do better balancing between Gotham, Blud, Titans and the larger dCU.

Nightwing should connected to all 4 just like Dick Grayson once did

----------


## Avi

> In fact I'd argue _Nightwing the Untouchable by Sam Humphries_, is one of the best solo Nightwing stories, which is set in Bludhaven.
> 
> Bludhaven is fine as a concept, but it's horrendously underdeveloped. He needs a cast of characters to play off.


I agree. Humphries' story is one of the best. It would be my first recommendation to new Nightwing fans if it had more consistent art.

The Blüdhaven cast is incredibly important, it makes or breaks the city for me. I went from enjoying Nightwing by Dennis O'Neil (not in Blüd) to thinking Nightwing by Chuck Dixon is a snoozefest. The story only got interesting to me again once it really built up Dick's tenants and Dick set out to clean up the BPD and it continued when Devin Grayson introduced the Tevis family. 

I wouldn't like Seeley's Blüdhaven arcs at all if not for Blockbuster's new version feeling right and Svoboda. 

But when I look at the Dick Grayson stories I enjoy they are still overwhelmingly out of both Gotham and Blüdhaven.  




> It looks like Higgin's run is retroactively getting good to fit the new narrative that it's better for him to be in Gotham.
> Unless he is talking about the time Dick was Batman.


Yeah... Those were my first thoughts + Dick as Robin stories, then I wondered if there is a great obscure story I don't know about.




> [...]
> 
> Its 100% ok for Dick to interact with Batfam, be in Gotham and consider Batman and co part of his family. Its the same thing with the Titans. Its ok for Dick to interact with the titans, be in Titans tower and consider Titans part of his family. But Dick's home and family was always wherever he was in the moment and whomever he was with at the time. The whole world is his home and anyone living on earth can be considered his family. I really wish writers would lean into this narrative with Dick that was established with his parents being travelers in the circus. He was always on the move since birth. He is robin because he soars the skies like a bird. He is always up in the air and never firmly planted on the ground. Dick doesnt need to be grounded, he needs to be able to fly. His family needs to be able to fly with him or stay grounded without him and understand his decisions. Its not that he is leaving them, but he needs to keep moving. Gotham, Titansfam and Batfam will always be there for him when he gets back, he doesnt always need to be with them or in Gotham.


Preach! 




> I mean, the city got blown up.  I know there has been a few Crisis but it was a missed opportunity to revamp the city into something different. Say, a group of rich landowners bought most of the land to build casinos and sky scrapers and drove out the survivors and grieving family members of the people who originally lived there.  Dick fighting a group of rich, corporate elites would be an interesting take on him.     
> 
> Yep, Bludhaven doesn't need to be abandoned. It just needs to be better developed.


That's a great concept, which ones more makes me sad that the Rebirth Blüdhaven vision seems to have been thrown out of the window. 

Considering how much Luthor and Dick have met over the last years, I think he would make a nice guest star among introducing actual Blüdhaveners. I think Badou had a nice idea a few months ago about Dick stepping on Luthor's toes thanks to the money he inherited.




> Bludhaven has too cool a name for me to abandon completely... but that's not a city name I'd give to Dick. Bludhaven sounds like a city you give to... Azrael, maybe. The edgier Batman.
> 
> It's a very 90s name I feel


I know that it's sometimes called the Bloodhaven and Blüd is supposed to be mean blood but my mind translates it to "blüt" which then transforms into "blühen" the German word for bloom. So, Blüdhaven has less of an edgy 90s connotation for me.

----------


## mib86

I think the main problem with Blüdhaven is that nothing sticks; every time the lead author changes, it all starts all over again with just a few exceptions or cameos.
The city itself has also changed shape many times.
Unsurprisingly, some see Blüdhaven as superfluous, considering all of Dick's friends and family live outside the city.

I think to make the city feel really important they should start reusing characters and places from other authors runs more, even from the unpopular ones (Ric saga included: where are the other characters who wore the nightwing costume now?)

----------


## Godlike13

Thats a problem with Nightwing's books in general. They can't follow up on the good runs. Good runs are followed by bad runs and then they then just ultimately blow things up and repeat that cycle. And no, they don't need to reuse anything from Ric. Thats whole run is tainted. You don't need to remind the readers of the very run that drove them away. Revisit what worked and build on that. Don't waste anymore time on what didn't. Unless its to kick its when its down. Like someone is murdering those guys and you find out its Nite-Wing  :Stick Out Tongue: .

----------


## Rac7d*

> Dick Grayson made Robin the most Iconic sidekick in comics and pop culture [I corrected that for U ]
> 
> Nightwing isn't a sidekick. He is part of Batman's Franchise yeah but that's not all he is.
> 
> It's unrealistic and unwise to divorce him from the Bat franchise when he's such a critical part of mythos.
> 
> DC just needs to do better balancing between Gotham, Blud, Titans and the larger dCU.
> 
> Nightwing should connected to all 4 just like Dick Grayson once did


Whats is the larger DCU thease days?  It looks like everyone is retreating into their respective quadrant and focusing on storytelling within their smaller realms

----------


## John Venus

IMO, the best take on Nightwing in Bludhaven was in 'Batman Adventures #12' by Ty Templeton and Rick Burchett.   








Not a Gotham knock off, no angst, no constant self doubting or comparing himself to Bruce, Dick operates in his own way and he is competent in areas that Bruce isn't. He operates in day light, participates in press conferences, does not use fear as a weapon, knocks on doors and is overall friendly with the people of the city. He is almost like the DCAU Flash in 'Flash & Substance' though I doubt he will be raking anybody's gardens anytime soon.

----------


## Claude

> IMO, the best take on Nightwing in Bludhaven was in 'Batman Adventures #12' by Ty Templeton and Rick Burchett.   
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Not a Gotham knock off, no angst, no constant self doubting or comparing himself to Bruce, Dick operates in his own way and he is competent in areas that Bruce isn't. He operates in day light, participates in press conferences, does not use fear as a weapon, knocks on doors and is overall friendly with the people of the city. He is almost like the DCAU Flash in 'Flash & Substance' though I doubt he will be raking anybody's gardens anytime soon.



Ha! I hadn't seen that before - Dick In Bludhaven being like the Adam West Batman is hilarious.

----------


## Frontier

I forget the DCAU even had Bludhaven  :Stick Out Tongue: .

----------


## WonderNight

> Dick Grayson made Robin the most Iconic sidekick in comics and pop culture [I corrected that for U ]
> 
> Nightwing isn't a sidekick. He is part of Batman's Franchise yeah but that's not all he is.
> 
> It's unrealistic and unwise to divorce him from the Bat franchise when he's such a critical part of mythos.
> 
> DC just needs to do better balancing between Gotham, Blud, Titans and the larger dCU.
> 
> Nightwing should connected to all 4 just like Dick Grayson once did


Who are all of these people asking for him to be divorced from the bat franchise and family? All I'm asking for is him to be more unique from all the other bats, and more dcu centric.

Nightwing currently is a sidekick, only his fans believes dc's hes his own man hype. Robin is currently more of his own man than nightwing!

----------


## Rac7d*

> Who are all of these people asking for him to be divorced from the bat franchise and family? All I'm asking for is him to be more unique from all the other bats, and more dcu centric.
> 
> Nightwing currently is a sidekick, only his fans believes dc's hes his own man hype. Robin is currently more of his own man than nightwing!


Again what is DCU centric? What’s going on in the DCU?

Nightwing ain’t nobody’s sidekick man.

----------


## Spideyvinnegar

> this follow-up to the events of Fear State follows Nightwing around the holiday season, avoiding attending the Bat-Family holiday party before he’s doused with Fear Toxin and forced to relive memories of his past, present, and future shown to him by three ghostly versions of Batgirl – Barbara Gordon, Stephanie Brown, and Cassandra Cain.


Preview for Nightwing's story on Batman: Urban Legends #10 out on december 14
What do you guys think ? Now "everything is canon" I'm kinda afraid they'll be bringing up something from his infamous annual #2
Also why would Dick be avoiding his family's party ?

----------


## WonderNight

> Again what is DCU centric? What’s going on in the DCU?
> 
> Nightwing ain’t nobody’s sidekick man.


What's DCU centric? Everything thats awesome about dc comics that's not Batman, batfam or Gotham centric!  A place where dick can interact with dozens of different fan favorite heroes, villains, support characters, locations and settings! A place where nightwing can have epic adventures that's not your standard bat style stories. A place where Dick can be more unique than the other two dozen bats! A place where nightwing's best character traits can shine best like Nightwing best leader in the DCU, leader of the next generation of heroes, the heart and most connected in the DCU, the icon and role model of the of the new generation! A place where dick can build his own mythos and corner, that have roots in the bat but is its own thing first!

Should Dick need to be completely disconnected from the bat? No of course not! But dick being a bat should always be secondary to his character not first!!! 

If you need some small examples. The current Robin book, red hood and the outlaws and Grayson are all examples of a bat character being more of a DCU centric character first

Just make him the globetrotting team up bat character! I mean why is Bludhaven so important and what does him being so bat centric do for his character?

----------


## Godlike13

> What's DCU centric? Everything thats awesome about dc comics that's not Batman, batfam or Gotham centric!  A place where dick can interact with dozens of different fan favorite heroes, villains, support characters, locations and settings! A place where nightwing can have epic adventures that's not your standard bat style stories. A place where Dick can be more unique than the other two dozen bats! A place where nightwing's best character traits can shine best like Nightwing best leader in the DCU, leader of the next generation of heroes, the heart and most connected in the DCU, the icon and role model of the of the new generation! A place where dick can build his own mythos and corner, that have roots in the bat but is its own thing first!
> 
> Should Dick need to be completely disconnected from the bat? No of course not! But dick being a bat should always be secondary to his character not first!!! 
> 
> If you need some small examples. The current Robin book, red hood and the outlaws and Grayson are all examples of a bat character being more of a DCU centric character first
> 
> Just make him the globetrotting team up bat character! I mean why is Bludhaven so important and what does him being so bat centric do for his character?


He has that, with the Titans. It’s not the Batbooks fault those books suck though. Dick is part of 2 Titans books right now. So this idea that Batman is keeping him contained isn’t really true. Problem is the place were he’s with other heroes and being a leader, those creators would rather have him job out to those other heroes like Roy Harper and highlight others then do anything with him. Even though he’s pretty much the only one that has to always be there. On the surface at least. 

 BTW the current Robin book, RHatO, and even Grayson weren’t very DCU centric. Let’s not create a false narrative to make your point. The current Robin book is heavily using Bat mythos, RHatO wasn’t really centric to anything but off in its own corner till the next Bat event or they needed a Batman appearance to boost sales, and even with Grayson Spyral came from Batman. Though it felt bigger I’ll give you that, but I think the formula and approach that was taken in how the stories were told made it seem more unique and outreaching.

----------


## Aahz

> Just make him the globetrotting team up bat character! I mean why is Bludhaven so important and what does him being so bat centric do for his character?


How does Blüdheaven make him Batcentric?

That Dicks own city with his own villains and supporting cast.

Ok he has a lot of Batfamily Batcharacters at the moment, but I think that's is because Taylor is making a lot of call back to Dixons run (proably still the most popular era of Nightwing as a solo character) and because alot of fans like that.

And Globetrotting is usually also not preventing other Batcharacters from returning to Gotham for every big Batman event (Ok they might be occasionally able to skip on event, but they still part of most of them).

And in Blüdheaven there is at least a chance for Dick having at least some long term direction, RHatO got in the end basically a complete new direction every year or so.

----------


## Rac7d*

> What's DCU centric? Everything thats awesome about dc comics that's not Batman, batfam or Gotham centric!  A place where dick can interact with dozens of different fan favorite heroes, villains, support characters, locations and settings! A place where nightwing can have epic adventures that's not your standard bat style stories. A place where Dick can be more unique than the other two dozen bats! A place where nightwing's best character traits can shine best like Nightwing best leader in the DCU, leader of the next generation of heroes, the heart and most connected in the DCU, the icon and role model of the of the new generation! A place where dick can build his own mythos and corner, that have roots in the bat but is its own thing first!
> 
> Should Dick need to be completely disconnected from the bat? No of course not! But dick being a bat should always be secondary to his character not first!!! 
> 
> If you need some small examples. The current Robin book, red hood and the outlaws and Grayson are all examples of a bat character being more of a DCU centric character first
> 
> Just make him the globetrotting team up bat character! I mean why is Bludhaven so important and what does him being so bat centric do for his character?




Yeah he has that, it’s with the titans, but the book sucks right now. Nothing we can do about that. At least he’s gonna start building a relationship with Superman son so we will see him in metropolis occasionally.    Can I ask what is awesome about the DCU presently?  Honesty  I like how the Aqua and. Wonder family are coming together with their respective characters to build their centric stories the way the bat family does.  I wouldn’t send Dick to intrude of their worlds he doesn’t belong their.   I might agree with you if there was so big DCU even right now but nothings happening. The last big DC event made him into a damsel. So I’m cool with him being the big dog in Gotham.

----------


## Avi

As lacking as Taylor's execution of including the Titans and Supes has been in my eyes so far, he _is_ showing Dick has relationships outside the Batfamily.

That said, I still think the Nightwing title should have a Brave-and-the-Bold-style back-up where Dick can team up with a wide array of other characters.




> He has that, with the Titans. It’s not the Batbooks fault those books suck though. Dick is part of 2 Titans books right now. So this idea that Batman is keeping him contained isn’t really true. Problem is the place were he’s with other heroes and being a leader, those creators would rather have him job out to those other heroes like Roy Harper and highlight others then do anything with him. Even though he’s pretty much the only one that has to always be there. On the surface at least.


If only this weren't so true. Though Titans United seems surprisingly good to Dick from the previews I have seen considering it is more or less a tie-in to the Titans TV Show.




> BTW the current Robin book, RHatO, and even Grayson weren’t very DCU centric. Let’s not create a false narrative to make your point. The current Robin book is heavily using Bat mythos, RHatO wasn’t really centric to anything but off in its own corner till the next Bat event or they needed a Batman appearance to boost sales, and even with Grayson Spyral came from Batman. Though it felt bigger I’ll give you that, but I think the formula and approach that was taken in how the stories were told made it seem more unique and outreaching.


Can't speak for the other books but reducing Grayson to a Bat-adjacent Spyral is equally as false of a narrative. 

There's no question that Spyral was originally a concept for Batman, but it had no Bat-visuals or characters except for not-Kathy Kane, Helena, and Dick by the time Grayson came around, but Helena had nothing to do with Gotham or Bruce at that point, and Kathy Kane aka Luka Netz was a completely different character. Seeley and King basically reinvent Spyral.

During the "Grayson phase" Dick interacted with Luthor, Midnighter, Superman, and other Wildstorm and Checkmate characters, plus his own supporting cast while also featuring in Titans Hunt and teaming up with Starfire. That's more DCU-centric than Batman-centric, even with R&B Eternal coming out at the same time.





> How does Blüdheaven make him Batcentric?
> 
> That Dicks own city with his own villains and supporting cast.


The fact that it has been an easy excuse to put as many Bats into his stories as possible ever since Dick isn't allowed to say "Get out of my city" anymore while also pushing him into Batman Issues for the sake of it instead of truly giving him something to do.

The question is where are these villains and his supporting cast? Even the new support characters Taylondo introduced have been overshadowed by Babs and Tim. Heartless has been twiddling his thumbs for four months but not particularly ominously. The crossover is obviously bat-centric but the Annual used a Bat villain too instead of using a Nightwing foe.

And just some villains and a supporting cast aren't enough. Higgins' Gotham arcs also had those. They even had the same connection to Dick as Taylondo's new characters have: the circus and Zucco.




> Ok he has a lot of Batfamily Batcharacters at the moment, but I think that's is because Taylor is making a lot of call back to Dixons run (proably still the most popular era of Nightwing as a solo character) and because alot of fans like that.
> 
> And Globetrotting is usually also not preventing other Batcharacters from returning to Gotham for every big Batman event (Ok they might be occasionally able to skip on event, but they still part of most of them).


Well, you answered the problems people see and what might be better with your "Ok"s.




> And in Blüdheaven there is at least a chance for Dick having at least some long term direction, RHatO got in the end basically a complete new direction every year or so.


RHatO had a chance to have a long-term direction as well. Hell, every book has. Blüdhaven gets a new direction every year too. It looks different the second a new writer takes over. The exception being Dixon -> Grayson and Seeley -> Humphries.

I don't think Blüdhaven is inherently bad, but it doesn't help Dick as a character either. Not since it blew up.

----------


## Aahz

> The question is where are these villains and his supporting cast?


Taylor is like 9 issues into his run, with 3 of them being a feat state tie in.
Stuff like that needs time, and a creator who is willing to put the work in and an editorial that is going in force consistency, when writers change.

Thing is with a fixed location like Blüdheaven you can build a world around the character, if the character is constantly globe trotting that's pretty hard.

----------


## Rakiduam

> Taylor is like 9 issues into his run, with 3 of them being a feat state tie in.
> Stuff like that needs time, and a creator who is willing to put the work in and an editorial that is going in force consistency, when writers change.
> 
> Thing is with a fixed location like Blüdheaven you can build a world around the character, if the character is constantly globe trotting that's pretty hard.


Higgins was constantly interrupted with crosovers and still managed to introduce a bunch of character. In the Chicago run alone, he introduced the roomies, a new job, the city, two could be villains, Zucco again, and a mythos in like 2 issues.

Seeley made Bludhaven interesting for first time ever, he tried to give it it's own identity instead of Little Gotham and Taylor undo it in one issue.

It has been decades since they introduced Blüdheavenand it hasn't help one bit to build a world around Nightwing. It's basically where the bat childrens go when they are not being used in Gotham, it's treated like kindergarten.

----------


## Badou

> Right on the money imo. 
> 
> It's not like it's the greatest status quo, but it makes so much more sense for the character. He needs to be in Gotham whenever it's time for a big Bat story. He's always around his family or they're always around him, which brings him back to Gotham regardless. 
> 
> His best stories as a "solo" character has always been in Gotham. A huge part of that is what you were getting at Badou, sine Gotham just inherently has interesting elements and characters to pull from, and Dick has an inherent reason to care about Gotham specifically (which is also why he's always there anyways, whether he lives in Bludhaven or not). 
> 
> As it stands now, Dick has two homes according to Taylor's run and all the ongoing Batman books: Gotham and Bludhaven. Only one of them is interesting. If the idea is that he'd be less independent, I have to ask "when has he been independent?" because he clearly hasn't been since he first moved to Bludhaven lol.


Pretty much. Gotham will always have more interesting elements to build stories from. It isn't perfect but having Dick live there puts him in the best position to have stories with more interesting and higher profile characters. Rather than split his time and spending all this effort trying to turn Bludahven into something it will never be, which is a setting that adds true value to his character, they could just write him in stories set in Gotham that have a higher chance at being memorable because of the higher level of usable assets that setting provides. 

For those that don't want to completely throw away Bludhaven then I'd just do what the YJ show did and fold it into Gotham. Let Bludhaven be the port or harbor district of Gotham. You can separate Gotham into all these different areas that look unique to each other that the villains control or operate from. Like the traditional city center and business district, the entertainment district, the slums district, and the college/tech district. You can even bring in Blockbuster, for those that enjoy the character I guess, to control that part of the city. So you can keep the whole whaling imagery too that Seeley and Taylor are trying use for Bludhaven since it is set in the port. Now a Blockbuster has to compete directly with characters like Penguin, Two Face, Joker and so on which elevates his ceiling over being the only fish in an irrelevant city. 




> Taylor is like 9 issues into his run, with 3 of them being a feat state tie in.
> Stuff like that needs time, and a creator who is willing to put the work in and an editorial that is going in force consistency, when writers change.


9 issues is more than half of what King and Seeley did on their Grayson run. That is a good sample size. Taylor's pace is just incredibly slow and no story elements he's introduced outside the Dick and Babs romance have felt like they really mattered or had any weight behind it. But the Dick and Babs romance could have just happened in Gotham over Bludahven as well. It isn't really reliant on it being in Bludhaven. 




> Thing is with a fixed location like Blüdheaven you can build a world around the character, if the character is constantly globe trotting that's pretty hard.


I don't believe you can in modern comics. All the famous locations were grandfathered in from a different era where it was much easier to create cities with lasting characters because there wasn't all this history, but has any book been able to create some new city for an established hero and have it matter or last in the last 30 years? Not really. You can argue that Bludhaven is the most successful "new" city created in the last 30 years but I would not call Bludhaven a success at all. Bludahven is only relevant because Dick Grayson is in it. The moment he steps outside the city becomes useless, which tells me the city itself isn't really elevating the character because it has no value beyond its attachment to Dick. I'd say that Jason's Outlaws book that had no fixed setting added more lasting elements and permanent relationships to his character than anything Bludahven has done for Nightwing since the reboot. 

It just feels like it is one of those antiquated ideas that because Nightwing has a solo book writers think he has to have his "own city" since that is just what traditional heroes have, but they don't realize that most heroes don't have or need their own city. So it ends up feeling like they only stick Nightwing in a Bludhaven because they think that is the only way he can compete with Batman, but I don't want the character to compete with Batman. I don't care. I just want the character put in the best position to have the best stories possible and I don't see how him being stuck in a city like Bludhaven that has nothing in it does that.

----------


## Frontier

I think where you want Nightwing lives depends a lot on what you want/expect from the character and what kind of stories you want to see...and maybe to a certain extent what you can live with because he's probably always going to be around in Gotham one way or another, so whether he's globe-hopping, at Titans Tower, or in another city he'll probably still be in Gotham when stories need him to be. But some might not want to read about him in Gotham in general.

----------


## Drako

https://screenrant.com/dc-war-earth-...-crossover-dc/

*The War For Earth-3 Crossover Event Is Coming To DC Comics*


The War For Earth-3 is coming to DC Comics. Next year, a handful of comics will crossover in a brand new event that will see heroes and villains take on the characters of Earth-3. The War For Earth-3 will take place in the pages of Teen Titans Academy, The Flash, and Suicide Squad, with two issues bookending the crossovers.

The War For Earth-3 will be centered on Amanda Waller's quest for power in the DC Universe. The synopsis for War For Earth-3 #1 reveals that the Crime Syndicate will hunt down the former Task Force X leader, leading to Teen Titans, the Flash, and Suicide Squad colliding on Earth-3. The Titans and Flash will be searching for a missing student who they believed was taken by Waller to be part of her Justice Squad team. War For Earth-3 #1 will be written by Robbie Thompson and Dennis Hopeless, with art by Steve Pugh. The crossover will feature connecting covers from Rafa Sandoval (seen below). The issue will feature variants from Gleb Melnikov, Liam Sharp (1:25), and Guillen March (1:50).
The War For Earth-3, taking place in the pages of Suicide Squad, Teen Titans Academy, and The Flash, will begin in March 2022. The crossover event will run through the month's first day, starting with War For Earth-3 #1 and ending with War For Earth-3 #2 on March 29, 2022. The exciting event will set the stage for what's coming next in each of the titles featured in the crossover.

Thanks Hypo for the post in the DC Forum.

----------


## Rac7d*

> https://screenrant.com/dc-war-earth-...-crossover-dc/
> 
> *The War For Earth-3 Crossover Event Is Coming To DC Comics*
> 
> 
> The War For Earth-3 is coming to DC Comics. Next year, a handful of comics will crossover in a brand new event that will see heroes and villains take on the characters of Earth-3. The War For Earth-3 will take place in the pages of Teen Titans Academy, The Flash, and Suicide Squad, with two issues bookending the crossovers.
> 
> The War For Earth-3 will be centered on Amanda Waller's quest for power in the DC Universe. The synopsis for War For Earth-3 #1 reveals that the Crime Syndicate will hunt down the former Task Force X leader, leading to Teen Titans, the Flash, and Suicide Squad colliding on Earth-3. The Titans and Flash will be searching for a missing student who they believed was taken by Waller to be part of her Justice Squad team. War For Earth-3 #1 will be written by Robbie Thompson and Dennis Hopeless, with art by Steve Pugh. The crossover will feature connecting covers from Rafa Sandoval (seen below). The issue will feature variants from Gleb Melnikov, Liam Sharp (1:25), and Guillen March (1:50).
> The War For Earth-3, taking place in the pages of Suicide Squad, Teen Titans Academy, and The Flash, will begin in March 2022. The crossover event will run through the month's first day, starting with War For Earth-3 #1 and ending with War For Earth-3 #2 on March 29, 2022. The exciting event will set the stage for what's coming next in each of the titles featured in the crossover.
> ...


Well there we go, now everyone who wanted Dick to be mixed up in the *GREATER DCU* should be satisfied.

I'm satisfied that the _Nightwing_ title is not included into that crossover mix, so Taylor can proceed with his story uninterrupted.

----------


## Avi

> Taylor is like 9 issues into his run, with 3 of them being a feat state tie in.
> Stuff like that needs time, and a creator who is willing to put the work in and an editorial that is going in force consistency, when writers change.


10 with the Annual. So 7 Issues without Fear State. You know how long Humphries' Nightwing arc was? 7 Issues.

The others already mentioned Grayson and Higgins run. Let me compare the current one with them a little more:

Grayson used its first Annual to build up the supporting cast and further the story. In Taylor's we got more Bats both in the supporting as well as the villain role.

Higgins gave Dick a personal villain when Dick was involved in the CoO crossover while the Fear State crossover gave the Batgirls a new villain – except not even that really because Seer is also Jace's villain.

Whether Editorial is going to finally force a little consistency remains to be seen. They might because things have changed, but I'm not confident they will.




> Thing is with a fixed location like Blüdheaven you can build a world around the character, if the character is constantly globe trotting that's pretty hard.


I would like Blüd more of it actually were so, but we have evidence that a fixed location hasn't helped Dick at all in the last years.




> https://screenrant.com/dc-war-earth-...-crossover-dc/
> 
> *The War For Earth-3 Crossover Event Is Coming To DC Comics*
> 
> 
> The War For Earth-3 is coming to DC Comics. Next year, a handful of comics will crossover in a brand new event that will see heroes and villains take on the characters of Earth-3. The War For Earth-3 will take place in the pages of Teen Titans Academy, The Flash, and Suicide Squad, with two issues bookending the crossovers.
> 
> The War For Earth-3 will be centered on Amanda Waller's quest for power in the DC Universe. The synopsis for War For Earth-3 #1 reveals that the Crime Syndicate will hunt down the former Task Force X leader, leading to Teen Titans, the Flash, and Suicide Squad colliding on Earth-3. The Titans and Flash will be searching for a missing student who they believed was taken by Waller to be part of her Justice Squad team. War For Earth-3 #1 will be written by Robbie Thompson and Dennis Hopeless, with art by Steve Pugh. The crossover will feature connecting covers from Rafa Sandoval (seen below). The issue will feature variants from Gleb Melnikov, Liam Sharp (1:25), and Guillen March (1:50).
> The War For Earth-3, taking place in the pages of Suicide Squad, Teen Titans Academy, and The Flash, will begin in March 2022. The crossover event will run through the month's first day, starting with War For Earth-3 #1 and ending with War For Earth-3 #2 on March 29, 2022. The exciting event will set the stage for what's coming next in each of the titles featured in the crossover.
> ...


The cover looks promising.

A shame that Shrike is dead already, would have been cool to see him in Talon's place, and that this Owlman isn't the one from Forever Evil. I guess there is hope that what happened in FE influences how Dick interacts with this E-3 version. But probably not.

I hope this Titans event is better than the last and that the "teaching Titans' get treated better than they have been so far in TTA. New writers sound promising in that regard.

----------


## Claude

> Well there we go, now everyone who wanted Dick to be mixed up in the *GREATER DCU* should be satisfied.
> 
> I'm satisfied that the _Nightwing_ title is not included into that crossover mix, so Taylor can proceed with his story uninterrupted.



Well, that sounds pretty interesting - and nice to pay off the TTA/Suicide Squad connection from earlier in both runs.

Red X reveal in TTA #12 to have an Earth 3 element, then, to connect it all? Earth 3 version of Dick?

Wouldn't mind Hopeless as the new writer on whatever Titans book comes out of this, whether its still TTA or something else.

----------


## Iclifton

> 10 with the Annual. So 7 Issues without Fear State. You know how long Humphries' Nightwing arc was? 7 Issues.
> 
> The others already mentioned Grayson and Higgins run. Let me compare the current one with them a little more:
> 
> Grayson used its first Annual to build up the supporting cast and further the story. In Taylor's we got more Bats both in the supporting as well as the villain role.
> 
> Higgins gave Dick a personal villain when Dick was involved in the CoO crossover while the Fear State crossover gave the Batgirls a new villain – except not even that really because Seer is also Jace's villain.
> 
> Whether Editorial is going to finally force a little consistency remains to be seen. They might because things have changed, but I'm not confident they will.
> ...


Dude comparatively to Taylor’s run Higgins and Humphries sucked. No ambition. This run has a side cast. It includes Barbara. And to be honest, she’s been a great addition to the book. Taylor has taken a more character centric approach than other writers. We’ve got a ton of great character moments and Dick has had a great showing. 

I’m glad that instead of wasting page space to introduce a bunch of new characters that will be thrown away immediately, we are getting a character centric run. Also, in the short amount of time we’ve seen Heartless, he’s already much better than the other villains introduced in all of the above mentioned runs.

Also, we have no evidence that fixed location doesn’t help. The current run is selling great. The only time the character went international was Grayson which did not sell nearly as well.

----------


## Claude

Also, between this and Shadow War - kudos to DC for relatively contained crossovers between sympathetic titles and covered by a single writer. Much more palatable than the lengthy mish mash these things can often be.

----------


## Frontier

> https://screenrant.com/dc-war-earth-...-crossover-dc/
> 
> *The War For Earth-3 Crossover Event Is Coming To DC Comics*
> 
> 
> The War For Earth-3 is coming to DC Comics. Next year, a handful of comics will crossover in a brand new event that will see heroes and villains take on the characters of Earth-3. The War For Earth-3 will take place in the pages of Teen Titans Academy, The Flash, and Suicide Squad, with two issues bookending the crossovers.
> 
> The War For Earth-3 will be centered on Amanda Waller's quest for power in the DC Universe. The synopsis for War For Earth-3 #1 reveals that the Crime Syndicate will hunt down the former Task Force X leader, leading to Teen Titans, the Flash, and Suicide Squad colliding on Earth-3. The Titans and Flash will be searching for a missing student who they believed was taken by Waller to be part of her Justice Squad team. War For Earth-3 #1 will be written by Robbie Thompson and Dennis Hopeless, with art by Steve Pugh. The crossover will feature connecting covers from Rafa Sandoval (seen below). The issue will feature variants from Gleb Melnikov, Liam Sharp (1:25), and Guillen March (1:50).
> The War For Earth-3, taking place in the pages of Suicide Squad, Teen Titans Academy, and The Flash, will begin in March 2022. The crossover event will run through the month's first day, starting with War For Earth-3 #1 and ending with War For Earth-3 #2 on March 29, 2022. The exciting event will set the stage for what's coming next in each of the titles featured in the crossover.
> ...


I guess Dick is leading for the Titans portion of the crossover. Hope he's used well.

(They probably won't mention any of the New 52 Crime Syndicate stuff even though he's fighting Owlman here).

----------


## Grayson - The Dark Heir

> https://screenrant.com/dc-war-earth-...-crossover-dc/
> 
> *The War For Earth-3 Crossover Event Is Coming To DC Comics*
> 
> 
> The War For Earth-3 is coming to DC Comics. Next year, a handful of comics will crossover in a brand new event that will see heroes and villains take on the characters of Earth-3. The War For Earth-3 will take place in the pages of Teen Titans Academy, The Flash, and Suicide Squad, with two issues bookending the crossovers.
> 
> The War For Earth-3 will be centered on Amanda Waller's quest for power in the DC Universe. The synopsis for War For Earth-3 #1 reveals that the Crime Syndicate will hunt down the former Task Force X leader, leading to Teen Titans, the Flash, and Suicide Squad colliding on Earth-3. The Titans and Flash will be searching for a missing student who they believed was taken by Waller to be part of her Justice Squad team. War For Earth-3 #1 will be written by Robbie Thompson and Dennis Hopeless, with art by Steve Pugh. The crossover will feature connecting covers from Rafa Sandoval (seen below). The issue will feature variants from Gleb Melnikov, Liam Sharp (1:25), and Guillen March (1:50).
> The War For Earth-3, taking place in the pages of Suicide Squad, Teen Titans Academy, and The Flash, will begin in March 2022. The crossover event will run through the month's first day, starting with War For Earth-3 #1 and ending with War For Earth-3 #2 on March 29, 2022. The exciting event will set the stage for what's coming next in each of the titles featured in the crossover.
> ...


Oh hey, an event I can actually be excited for lol. Based on the covers, it looks like the main characters are Dick, Wally, Kory, Vic, and the real Conner (who's finally showing up in something again after the Bendis YJ run lol) which is a cool line-up. Plus, it looks like Wallace, Red X, and Dane Nevermore might also be relevant based on the variant covers, on top of Bolt who seems to be the character in the synopsis. Basically, all characters that could have some neat interactions with Dick. 

On the CSA side, this Superwoman is actually Donna Troy (and seems to be paired against Kory), so that's gonna be interesting on its own, but that it would be nice to see Dick and the Titans interact with her. Even if Owlman doesn't remember the Forever Evil stuff, it wouldn't really matter. Dick and Owlman have had a rivalry since he was Batman and leading the JLA. It was his plan that put the CSA down back then, so I'm hoping this is more of a reflection of that than N52 stuff. William Cobb vs. Dick again is nice, not because of their obvious and old history, but because it feels like the pay-off to the last Teen Titans Academy/Suicide Squad crossover.

----------


## Pohzee

Yeah see I'm more interested in this than seeing Nightwing kick it with (Red?) Robin and the Batgirls.

----------


## Rac7d*

> Yeah see I'm more interested in this than seeing Nightwing kick it with (Red?) Robin and the Batgirls.


Yes Nightwing for all
hopefully the cover delivers what they promise and its not a forever evil situation

----------


## MakeNightwingGreatAgain

> Well there we go, now everyone who wanted Dick to be mixed up in the *GREATER DCU* should be satisfied.
> 
> I'm satisfied that the _Nightwing_ title is not included into that crossover mix, so Taylor can proceed with his story uninterrupted.


Haha this is a very limited take on what people said about Nightwing and the greater DC Universe. Its not that Dick cant have cross overs, its that his runs are filled to the brim with crossovers whether its batfam or some continuity changing event. His runs are always cut short and they tend to be the runs that take him in better directions (Tomasi, King, Higgins). We want to see Dick interact with the great DC Universe in his own comics and to eventually spawn a second brave and bold style comic with him teaming up with multiple people on various missions. Crossovers are great when they are limited, but even if its with the greater DC Universe, its still annoying. By this point, I think Dick could theoretically have three different comics that he can "lead" if DC actually invested the time in making Dick more of a flagship character like Harley and the Trinity.




> As lacking as Taylor's execution of including the Titans and Supes has been in my eyes so far, he _is_ showing Dick has relationships outside the Batfamily.
> 
> That said, I still think the Nightwing title should have a Brave-and-the-Bold-style back-up where Dick can team up with a wide array of other characters.
> 
> 
> 
> If only this weren't so true. Though Titans United seems surprisingly good to Dick from the previews I have seen considering it is more or less a tie-in to the Titans TV Show.
> 
> 
> ...


I'm just convinced Taylor is just re-using his plot idea from his amazing Spiderman run and then just slapping the Nightwing title on it. Unlike spidey though, Dick doesn't have much to work with lore wise as an independent character, so where Spidey excels at being the everyman with extremely dangerous enemies, Dick is like not even comparable. Which is why he has to rely on overselling Dick Babs and Dixon plots. I LOVE Dick and Tim interacting, so ill accept that, but we will also see how long it lasts. Even though there have been other characters featured in the solo, they never seem to stay around. Only person Dick is truly interacting with is Babs. 

For characters like Dick, I really wish writers would just treat him like a brand new OC and start over, especially when it's at the beginning of a new continuity. The fans will deal. They have been dealing for years now. The loud minority will be loud but as long as the storytelling and world build is good, they will have readers and supporters. DC also shoots themselves in the foot by forcing writers to cater to continuity and status quo instead of letting them experiment. I prefer to have some kind of continuity, but that continuity should only have to make sense within its own world. So N52 continuity doesn't need to piggyback off pre-flash point because it was an entirely new timeline.  Re-introducing other continuities within the N52 line made things difficult and now writers again don't know what is and isn't canon (just like before the hard reboot).

I was surprised when I found out how many writers have actually passed on writing Nightwing. Writing for Nightwing must be a hassle due to all restrictions, plot changes and pandering that are required of the author.




> Taylor is like 9 issues into his run, with 3 of them being a feat state tie in.
> Stuff like that needs time, and a creator who is willing to put the work in and an editorial that is going in force consistency, when writers change.
> 
> Thing is with a fixed location like Blüdheaven you can build a world around the character, if the character is constantly globe trotting that's pretty hard.


I mean, Tomasi only had 14 issues and his first story arc was like 3 books long! And he became hands down one of the best writers for Nightwing. A story arc doesn't need really be over 3 issues to do a good job with story telling. If you look at it as a movie, each panel represents a moment in a scene, each scene on a page is equal to one minute. Your avg movie is around 60-100 minutes, so a story arc told in three issues is equivalent to 75 pages. So, that is pretty equal to a decent length movie (one hour and fifteen minutes). Since the 90s, writers have been writing for the trade, which is why we have story arcs that should have been told in 3 issues, told in 12! Its crazy because of how slow the plot moves. Id rather ongoings have 3-4 self-contained story arcs per year with one major story building over them than just one story told over the year.

You can definitely have story arcs dedicated to Dick's time in Blüdhaven and then Dick's time globetrotting or whatever. Its an ongoing. By the 5-year time mark, Dick should have established lore and world-building that is iconic to his character.

Gotham, Titans and Bludhaven are all tired for Dick because he never grows as a character in either environment. Its like a prison for Dick: its either he is stuck as being the batman character in Titans, he is stuck being the sidekick character in Gotham or he is stuck being a stagnant vigilante with no life in Bludhaven.

----------


## Iclifton

> Haha this is a very limited take on what people said about Nightwing and the greater DC Universe. Its not that Dick cant have cross overs, its that his runs are filled to the brim with crossovers whether its batfam or some continuity changing event. His runs are always cut short and they tend to be the runs that take him in better directions (Tomasi, King, Higgins). We want to see Dick interact with the great DC Universe in his own comics and to eventually spawn a second brave and bold style comic with him teaming up with multiple people on various missions. Crossovers are great when they are limited, but even if its with the greater DC Universe, its still annoying. By this point, I think Dick could theoretically have three different comics that he can "lead" if DC actually invested the time in making Dick more of a flagship character like Harley and the Trinity.
> 
> 
> I'm just convinced Taylor is just re-using his plot idea from his amazing Spiderman run and then just slapping the Nightwing title on it. Unlike spidey though, Dick doesn't have much to work with lore wise as an independent character, so where Spidey excels at being the everyman with extremely dangerous enemies, Dick is like not even comparable. Which is why he has to rely on overselling Dick Babs and Dixon plots. I LOVE Dick and Tim interacting, so ill accept that, but we will also see how long it lasts. Even though there have been other characters featured in the solo, they never seem to stay around. Only person Dick is truly interacting with is Babs. 
> 
> For characters like Dick, I really wish writers would just treat him like a brand new OC and start over, especially when it's at the beginning of a new continuity. The fans will deal. They have been dealing for years now. The loud minority will be loud but as long as the storytelling and world build is good, they will have readers and supporters. DC also shoots themselves in the foot by forcing writers to cater to continuity and status quo instead of letting them experiment. I prefer to have some kind of continuity, but that continuity should only have to make sense within its own world. So N52 continuity doesn't need to piggyback off pre-flash point because it was an entirely new timeline.  Re-introducing other continuities within the N52 line made things difficult and now writers again don't know what is and isn't canon (just like before the hard reboot).
> 
> I was surprised when I found out how many writers have actually passed on writing Nightwing. Writing for Nightwing must be a hassle due to all restrictions, plot changes and pandering that are required of the author.
> 
> ...


I think it’s funny you enjoy Tomasis run so much. What great side cast did he introduce to the character? He didn’t, he specifically in multiple interviews said he considered the Batfamily the side cast. What great villains did he use? He didn’t. He used all Batfamily concepts. I like Tomasi as well, but he had all the same issues you’ve mentioned against Taylor. I’m sensing an extreme bias.

While I hope Taylor stays for a very long time, I must admit I am looking forward to hearing what the complaints are when the next team is announced. I’m willing to bet all the same people complaining now complain then to. Just like 90% of the people who complained about the spy direction of Grayson are now begging for an i international Nightwing. 

For the record, I don’t care what direction the book goes in. As long as I get a quality book with my favorite character.

----------


## Iclifton

I’m really confident all Nightwing really needs is a consistently good team and consistently good book. I don’t think a writer should worry about where the status quo they are using will take the character in 10 yrs. the character will grow with each and every quality run. This is probably the biggest team his solo (not including BatDick) has ever had. He has also never really had back to back great runs. He will get something ranging from good-great then a nice big lull in quality that kind of kills momentum.

----------


## Vordan

> Dude comparatively to Taylors run Higgins and Humphries sucked. No ambition. This run has a side cast. It includes Barbara. And to be honest, shes been a great addition to the book. Taylor has taken a more character centric approach than other writers. Weve got a ton of great character moments and Dick has had a great showing. 
> 
> Im glad that instead of wasting page space to introduce a bunch of new characters that will be thrown away immediately, we are getting a character centric run. *Also, in the short amount of time weve seen Heartless, hes already much better than the other villains introduced in all of the above mentioned runs.
> *
> Also, we have no evidence that fixed location doesnt help. The current run is selling great. The only time the character went international was Grayson which did not sell nearly as well.


Lmao good one. Heartless is a complete nonentity. Hes not cool or badass hes nothing. We barely even know anything about him yet.

----------


## Iclifton

> Lmao good one. Heartless is a complete nonentity. He’s not cool or badass he’s nothing. We barely even know anything about him yet.


So what villains in the above mentioned runs were better? Pretty sure Tomasi didn’t even try to introduce a Nightwing specific villain. And oh man who could forget Saiko from Higgins run. Real master piece

Heartless is still developing. Everything I’ve seen so far has made me want to see more. His story’s a not done being told.

----------


## Vordan

> So what villains in the above mentioned runs were better?
> 
> Heartless is still developing. Everything I’ve seen so far has made me want to see more. His story’s a not done being told.


Raptor was easily better. Nothing about Heartless is all that great. We’ll see if Taylor has more to show but he’s never been a great villain writer imo.

----------


## Iclifton

I quickly glanced over but to my knowledge the Seeley run was not in the initial post I replied to. If it was, than yea Raptor was good. However, that doesn’t take away from any of my other points. Additionally, if Heartless does turn out to be the child from Grayson past, that sounds interesting. The son of a wealthy insurance owner who screwed people
over. Who is now enhanced and rips hearts out. There’s def potential there.

----------


## Pohzee

> I quickly glanced over but to my knowledge the Seeley run was not in the initial post I replied to. If it was, than yea Raptor was good. However, that doesn’t take away from any of my other points. Additionally, if Heartless does turn out to be the child from Grayson past, that sounds interesting. The son of a wealthy insurance owner who screwed people
> over. Who is now enhanced and rips hearts out. There’s def potential there.


I don't think that the "connection" to Dick's past adds anything at all really. Pretty much none of the iconic Bat-Rogues need that sort of thing to be relevant

----------


## Iclifton

> I don't think that the "connection" to Dick's past adds anything at all really. Pretty much none of the iconic Bat-Rogues need that sort of thing to be relevant


I dont think the fact that he knew Dick as a kid makes him interesting. I think its interesting that he was raised as a rich child whose family made their fortune on the misfortune of others. Its an interesting counterpoint to the theme of this run, with Dick wanting to be peoples safety net.

----------


## HsssH

I really hated that Johns just killed off randomly all CSA members before Rebirth and Dick never got an opportunity to take down Owlman. Sure, it should be different version of Owlman, but with "everyone remembers everything" I think there is an opportunity to fix that mistake.

----------


## Avi

Nothing about Heartless being the random child bully from Dick's past sounds appealing to me. Quite the opposite.





> Haha this is a very limited take on what people said about Nightwing and the greater DC Universe. Its not that Dick cant have cross overs, its that his runs are filled to the brim with crossovers whether its batfam or some continuity changing event. His runs are always cut short and they tend to be the runs that take him in better directions (Tomasi, King, Higgins). We want to see Dick interact with the great DC Universe in his own comics and to eventually spawn a second brave and bold style comic with him teaming up with multiple people on various missions. Crossovers are great when they are limited, but even if its with the greater DC Universe, its still annoying. By this point, I think Dick could theoretically have three different comics that he can "lead" if DC actually invested the time in making Dick more of a flagship character like Harley and the Trinity.


This. A Brave and the Bold style book would be great. Team-up minis would be cool too. People have been asking for a Flash/Nightwing comic and there are others like these that would sell.




> *I'm just convinced Taylor is just re-using his plot idea from his amazing Spiderman run and then just slapping the Nightwing title on it.* Unlike spidey though, Dick doesn't have much to work with lore wise as an independent character, so where Spidey excels at being the everyman with extremely dangerous enemies, Dick is like not even comparable. Which is why he has to rely on overselling Dick Babs and Dixon plots. I LOVE Dick and Tim interacting, so ill accept that, but we will also see how long it lasts. Even though there have been other characters featured in the solo, they never seem to stay around. *Only person Dick is truly interacting with is Babs.*


I've been feeling like that since I read Friendly-Neighbourhood Spider-Man last year because I wanted to know how Taylor writes. I wish he would channel his Suicide Squad run more.

Exactly, Babs is the only one who stays around long-term. She simply is the only mainstay besides Dick at this point, and I think it's a problem. When Dick appeared in Batgirl over the last years, he was only there for one arc and then gone for a time before coming back for another team-up. Babs' appearance in Nightwing is a lot more continuous by now.




> For characters like Dick, I really wish writers would just treat him like a brand new OC and start over, especially when it's at the beginning of a new continuity. The fans will deal. They have been dealing for years now. The loud minority will be loud but as long as the storytelling and world build is good, they will have readers and supporters. DC also shoots themselves in the foot by forcing writers to cater to continuity and status quo instead of letting them experiment. I prefer to have some kind of continuity, but that continuity should only have to make sense within its own world. So N52 continuity doesn't need to piggyback off pre-flash point because it was an entirely new timeline.  Re-introducing other continuities within the N52 line made things difficult and now writers again don't know what is and isn't canon (just like before the hard reboot).
> 
> I was surprised when I found out how many writers have actually passed on writing Nightwing. Writing for Nightwing must be a hassle due to all restrictions, plot changes and pandering that are required of the author.


I think Taylor had the chance to build up Dick's continuity in his own image, still has - it's just not that great so far. The new characters he introduced haven't been fleshed out and well, a surprise half-sister is a trope either liked or hated, plus characters tied to the circus and Zucco aren't a novel idea. What he reintroduced are places (the Apartment) and concepts (Dick being part of the BPD) but they don't have what made them work anymore (the effect and the characters). The "everything is canon" approach pretty much lets writers cherry-pick what they want to use. Ram V on Catwoman sure did.

Higgins said on Twitter that this is the first time in the last 10 years that the Nightwing team has some creative freedom. I'm sure Nightwing is branded a difficult title in the industry. It's obvious why, but it's still sad.




> I mean, Tomasi only had 14 issues and his first story arc was like 3 books long! And he became hands down one of the best writers for Nightwing. A story arc doesn't need really be over 3 issues to do a good job with story telling. If you look at it as a movie, each panel represents a moment in a scene, each scene on a page is equal to one minute. Your avg movie is around 60-100 minutes, so a story arc told in three issues is equivalent to 75 pages. So, that is pretty equal to a decent length movie (one hour and fifteen minutes). Since the 90s, writers have been writing for the trade, which is why we have story arcs that should have been told in 3 issues, told in 12! Its crazy because of how slow the plot moves. Id rather ongoings have 3-4 self-contained story arcs per year with one major story building over them than just one story told over the year.
> 
> You can definitely have story arcs dedicated to Dick's time in BlÃ¼dhaven and then Dick's time globetrotting or whatever. Its an ongoing. By the 5-year time mark, Dick should have established lore and world-building that is iconic to his character.
> 
> Gotham, Titans and Bludhaven are all tired for Dick because he never grows as a character in either environment. Its like a prison for Dick: its either he is stuck as being the batman character in Titans, he is stuck being the sidekick character in Gotham or he is stuck being a stagnant vigilante with no life in Bludhaven.


All of this! Literally, any hero with their own city can leave it for a time and then return. And sure, they wanted to make it look as if Dick for now absolutely has to stay in Blüdhaven because it's gotten worse without him, but that's bullshit when his work there is on ice for three months because of a Gotham event.




> I really hated that Johns just killed off randomly all CSA members before Rebirth and Dick never got an opportunity to take down Owlman. Sure, it should be different version of Owlman, but with "everyone remembers everything" I think there is an opportunity to fix that mistake.


Fingers-crossed. Robbie Thompson introduced a new character in his Suicide Squad, who's a former Spyral agent, maybe he read up on Forever Evil.

----------


## Aahz

> All of this! Literally, any hero with their own city can leave it for a time and then return. And sure, they wanted to make it look as if Dick for now absolutely has to stay in Blüdhaven because it's gotten worse without him, but that's bullshit when his work there is on ice for three months because of a Gotham event.


In universe the Gotham events typically lasts like 3 days, so it isn't really delaying his work much.

----------


## Drako

Nightwing's story in Urban Legends was weird as hell.

Robin and Batman was great again, except the part were they came back to the Batcave, i didn't liked that at all, but make sense in the story. 

Titans Academy was trash as always.

----------


## JackJustMetMartin

> Nightwing's story in Urban Legends was weird as hell.
> 
> Robin and Batman was great again, except the part were they came back to the Batcave, i didn't liked that at all, but make sense in the story. 
> 
> Titans Academy was trash as always.


Urban Legends was just weird. I appreciate that it's addressing the impact losing a loved one can have on you this time of year, but the whole Batgirls of the past present and future took me out of the book a bit.

Bruce being a hardarse in Robin and Batman just aligns with the recent characteristic trait of Bruce _always_ being prepared for anything. I don't like it but I understand it isn't out of place.

Titans Academy straight up said that there's too many characters and I respect that. The book is just waaay too bloated, it's trying to be the X-men but hasn't the resources to develop the characters so it's just a mess.

----------


## Avi

Yeah, the Nightwing Urban Legends was indeed weird... and all over the place. 

Imo, it started quite well. Blüdhaveners trying to stab each other over Christmas presents seems par for the course and Howard wrote some good humorous inner thoughts, but then it all fell apart once the weird *spoilers:*
"the Bats can't have a proper Christmas Eve like ever because of Dick" and "Dick wasn't there for them this year"
*end of spoilers* starts. When Dick went to the manor to analyze the Toxin after he did the same with the clay-covered bullet in his Annual, I laughed a little in disbelieve. Please don't make that a thing, DC.

While the strange use of Fear Toxin was to be expected, it was even more awkward than I thought it'd be. 

Overall, a waste of Christian Duce's art and Sarah Stern's colors.



Tim's Urban Legends story reminded me of how much I like Tusk's design, but Nightwing fighting yet another Batman villain in Blüdhaven? Pass. And the dialogue? Eh.



Robin and Batman, yeah... Jesus Christ, Bruce. I wonder if Lemire is still going to turn their relationship around or if this is the path they are heading down. Croc's appearance could change the game. Either way, it was great to see the fab five have so much fun together.

----------


## Claude

> Robin and Batman, yeah... Jesus Christ, Bruce. I wonder if Lemire is still going to turn their relationship around or if this is the path they are heading down. Croc's appearance could change the game. Either way, it was great to see the fab five have so much fun together.


There's got to be some kind of turnaround, surely - you can't bring Alfred in particular to that kind of point and then leave it! But then, it's not in apparent continuity so Lemire can leave the characters how he likes... 

An effective punch to the gut, though. 

Teen Titans Academy 9 was fine - but if you don't like the idea of a Teen Titans Academy, and didn't like issues 1-8, this isn't going to be the one to win you over. 

Notable that Mike Norton appears to have taken over the art, so this was presumably what he was researching a few months back rather than a new project.

----------


## Godlike13

Robin and Batman was pretty dark. Continues its theme that both Dick and Bruce are broken as f. Not bad, but Robin was the first  :Stick Out Tongue: .

And I actually liked the Urban Legends story. It’s was silly, and the art was good.

----------


## Frontier

*spoilers:*
Is this the first time we've canonically seen Batman use a Robin for the whole "monitoring the Justice League and their protege's to find ways to take them out" plan?

Other than ASBAR I guess.
*end of spoilers*

----------


## HsssH

Those last couple of pages in batcave were brutal. It is obviously not said, but reading it you kinda have to wonder if this whole spying thing wasn't the reason why Bruce adopted Dick in the first place?

----------


## Drako

> *spoilers:*
> Is this the first time we've canonically seen Batman use a Robin for the whole "monitoring the Justice League and their protege's to find ways to take them out" plan?
> 
> Other than ASBAR I guess.
> *end of spoilers*


I don't think this is canon, but i could be wrong.

----------


## Lal

Robin & Batman was absolutely great. The revelation of the mission was an interesting twist, albeit a dark one.

I also liked the Nightwing story in Urban legends. It was decent and much better than Tim's story (Dick's characterization in this story was so bad).

The TTA 9 was just plain bad. How can these issues just keep getting worse? 
I was actually hopeful when I learned that Sheridan was a Nightwing fan, but so far he either write Dick as incompetent or almost doesn't use him.

----------


## Pohzee

> Those last couple of pages in batcave were brutal. It is obviously not said, but reading it you kinda have to wonder if this whole spying thing wasn't the reason why Bruce adopted Dick in the first place?


That wasn't my read on that situation. Batman's not threatened by the sidekicks and looking to recon their weaknesses for his own gain. He wanted Dick to have a situational awareness of the his teammate's weaknesses so that he can hold his ground in the group.

----------


## Pohzee

Oh hey maybe y'all hoping to see Dick as Robin in Waid's World's Finest weren't too far off. Or maybe its just the variant and we can take it with a grain of salt. But it would be fitting to have some Robin/Jimmy Olsen in there.

----------


## Rac7d*

why did he say Nighty Nightwing

----------


## Drako

> Oh hey maybe y'all hoping to see Dick as Robin in Waid's World's Finest weren't too far off. Or maybe its just the variant and we can take it with a grain of salt. But it would be fitting to have some Robin/Jimmy Olsen in there.


Pretty sure this is the regular cover.
This book is set on the past.

----------


## Claude

> Oh hey maybe y'all hoping to see Dick as Robin in Waid's World's Finest weren't too far off. Or maybe its just the variant and we can take it with a grain of salt. But it would be fitting to have some Robin/Jimmy Olsen in there.


This is starting to look like exactly what I'd hoped it would be! Proper "Glory Days" stuff.

----------


## Frontier

> Oh hey maybe y'all hoping to see Dick as Robin in Waid's World's Finest weren't too far off. Or maybe its just the variant and we can take it with a grain of salt. But it would be fitting to have some Robin/Jimmy Olsen in there.


Waid and Mora with classic Dynamic Duo should be pretty awesome although it seems like the eras this book is drawing from are all over the place.

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## Rac7d*

Teenaged nightwing crying into his pillow is the most tumblr thing

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## Konja7

> Teenaged nightwing crying into his pillow is the most tumblr thing


It was weird.

I know it was called New Teen Titans, but Dick was already 20s when he becomes Nightwing.

----------


## Pohzee

> It was weird.
> 
> I know it was called New Teen Titans, but Dick was already 20s when he becomes Nightwing.


I'm not so sure about that. He joined the New Teen Titans almost immediately after he dropped out of college his freshmen year of college.

----------


## Rac7d*

> It was weird.
> 
> I know it was called New Teen Titans, but Dick was already 20s when he becomes Nightwing.


the time line is weird, 17 new teen titans , 18 Nightwing 20, failed wedding 21, year 1 solo nightwing 23, Batman RIP  24, Return to Nightwing 28, Present Day.
It gives the two years for Jason, the title had changed to the New titans by the time of his wedding the only teen left on the team was Gar

----------


## Restingvoice

The noises I made when I saw what's under the dust jacket





> It was weird.
> 
> I know it was called New Teen Titans, but Dick was already 20s when he becomes Nightwing.


19. They changed the title to New Titans once the cast hit 20




> the time line is weird, 17 new teen titans , 18 Nightwing 20, failed wedding 21, year 1 solo nightwing 23, Batman RIP  24, Return to Nightwing 28, Present Day.
> It gives the two years for Jason, the title had changed to the New titans by the time of his wedding the only teen left on the team was Gar


17 he's still Robin and RIP isn't 24. Tim is almost 17 at that time. When No Man's Land happened after Nightwing moved to Bludhaven, Tim was still 14.

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## Rac7d*

> That wasn't my read on that situation. Batman's not threatened by the sidekicks and looking to recon their weaknesses for his own gain. He wanted Dick to have a situational awareness of the his teammate's weaknesses so that he can hold his ground in the group.


Dick does similar training with Tim in the future, however tim doesnt pick it up as quick

----------


## Rac7d*

> The noises I made when I saw what's under the dust jacket
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 19. They changed the title to New Titans once the cast hit 20
> 
> 
> 
> RIP isn't 24. Tim is almost 17 at that time. When No Man's Land happened after Nightwing moved to Bludhaven, Tim was still 14.


Tim will be 17 forever he should be 21+ *since Damian is 14*. 28 present is the most sense, because Dicks friends group are all adults and some with children
Tim is apart of peter pan group that DC doesn't know what to do with

----------


## Avi

> There's got to be some kind of turnaround, surely - you can't bring Alfred in particular to that kind of point and then leave it! But then, it's not in apparent continuity so Lemire can leave the characters how he likes... 
> 
> An effective punch to the gut, though. 
> 
> [...]


Very effective! I also expect some kind of turnaround. There just seems so much story left that I wonder how much of a turnaround it'll be.




> That wasn't my read on that situation. Batman's not threatened by the sidekicks and looking to recon their weaknesses for his own gain. He wanted Dick to have a situational awareness of the his teammate's weaknesses so that he can hold his ground in the group.


That's my read as well. Bruce wants Dick to be a friendless soldier because he thinks that's the only way for Dick to stay alive while fighting beside superpowered individuals, not because Dick is a mere tool to him.




> Oh hey maybe y'all hoping to see Dick as Robin in Waid's World's Finest weren't too far off. Or maybe its just the variant and we can take it with a grain of salt. But it would be fitting to have some Robin/Jimmy Olsen in there.


I didn't expect Dick to appear at all. If he does get a role as Robin that's great. Waid seems to like Dick so there is that. 

This iteration is probably quite different from the heavily Golden Age inspired version Yang/Reis brought to live.

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## Restingvoice

> Tim will be 17 forever he should be 21+ *since Damian is 14*. 28 present is the most sense, because Dicks friends group are all adults and some with children
> Tim is apart of peter pan group that DC doesn't know what to do with


Oh you were talking about the current continuity, not as published

----------


## bearman

I would love to see some Robin/Olsen time! Great silver age call back… although I doubt Jimmy will know B and R’s identities…

----------


## Grayson - The Dark Heir

Edit: Oh also, World's Finest! Now that Dick is confirmed to be in the book, minor role or not, I'm very excited for it. I mean, that Robin design from Mora is already looking so good I'm hoping it becomes the new standard canon design for Dick's time as Robin lol. 

There's a lot more Dick this week than I thought there would be. Haven't read Titans United or Robins yet (or Batgirls, if he's in that at all), but I did enjoy Robin and Batman as much as it threw me for a loop at the end, and Urban Legends had some decent Nightwing stuff going on. I didn't quite think either story handled things perfectly, but overall I'm pretty happy with the issue, especially the Christmas Nightwing story. Better than the one Jurgens gave us last year at least lol. 

Teen Titans Academy isn't a Nightwing book, so I don't read it for Nightwing alone, but it's little unfortunate that the book is back to doing too much for one issue. I really wish the book was more of a two or three book line-up that gave the story more space to breathe. Still, I'd rather have too much going on than nothing at all like the current Nightwing run, so oh well lol. 

Back to Robin and Batman, my personal read on the situation is that Bruce cares deeply for Dick but doesn't understand any healthy ways of showing that. He stresses Dick should be a soldier, rather than _is_ a soldier, and to me, that means he wants Dick to be so good at what he does, that nothing bad can ever happen to him. At the end of the day, Dick is a child in his care, and nothing scares him more than Dick getting hurt. It's a far cry from the Miller-y Batmans that treat their partners as soldiers to keep them at an arm's length. We see Bruce try more than once in these first two issues to make Dick happy after all. The mission debriefing shows that Bruce really just cares about Dick being capable of holding his own against the "Demigods". He doesn't care if Dick has friends, but he also doesn't care if he makes some. I think that's going to be Dick's salvation, where he internalizes all of Bruce's lessons and training, but uses his own strength to become a healthier person by making the right friends. I'm curious to see if the book will get to how much of a difference Dick's presence alone makes on Bruce's character. I also want to see Alfred go off on Bruce sometime soon because I think he needs it lol.

----------


## Rakiduam

> Back to Robin and Batman, my personal read on the situation is that Bruce cares deeply for Dick but doesn't understand any healthy ways of showing that. He stresses Dick should be a soldier, rather than _is_ a soldier, and to me, that means he wants Dick to be so good at what he does, that nothing bad can ever happen to him. At the end of the day, Dick is a child in his care, and nothing scares him more than Dick getting hurt. It's a far cry from the Miller-y Batmans that treat their partners as soldiers to keep them at an arm's length. We see Bruce try more than once in these first two issues to make Dick happy after all. The mission debriefing shows that Bruce really just cares about Dick being capable of holding his own against the "Demigods". He doesn't care if Dick has friends, but he also doesn't care if he makes some. I think that's going to be Dick's salvation, where he internalizes all of Bruce's lessons and training, but uses his own strength to become a healthier person by making the right friends. I'm curious to see if the book will get to how much of a difference Dick's presence alone makes on Bruce's character. I also want to see Alfred go off on Bruce sometime soon because I think he needs it lol.


I mostly agree but I also think the art does a lot to soften the tone of the story.

----------


## Restingvoice

> Teenaged nightwing crying into his pillow is the most tumblr thing


It's one of those things that I let go of because it's so freaking funny

----------


## JackJustMetMartin

> It's one of those things that I let go of because it's so freaking funny


It's not completely unbelievable even, just these actions doesn't suit Dick. Like of course he'd be upset, but him moping and cursing at the Titans seems just off.

----------


## Spideyvinnegar

So what did y'all think about Dick's christmas story from Urban Legends #10 ? I thought it was pretty nice even tho it felt kinda off with the fear state crossover (mosy likely Tini wrote that story before fs ending I guess ?) still fun to read
Gotta say I just love the way bat-writers are making Dick and Barbara interact currently as a couple, they just feel like a couple which has been married for +10 years lol
49.jpg

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## Rac7d*

> It's one of those things that I let go of because it's so freaking funny


I put a voice to it in my head, imagine letting your gf see you like that
Usually dick is angry but this daddy doesn’t love me moment is hilarious until little Jason is seen outside

----------


## MakeNightwingGreatAgain

> So what did y'all think about Dick's christmas story from Urban Legends #10 ? I thought it was pretty nice even tho it felt kinda off with the fear state crossover (mosy likely Tini wrote that story before fs ending I guess ?) still fun to read
> Gotta say I just love the way bat-writers are making Dick and Barbara interact currently as a couple, they just feel like a couple which has been married for +10 years lol
> 49.jpg


I mean it was cute but def not anything Id run home about. Probably could of done without the whole ghosts of Christmas pasta with the batgirls because it was cringe and ultimately not very impactful. Also Babs talking to Dick like that on the phone while he was fighting lol it was cute  for the people that were the target audience.

----------


## Spideyvinnegar

> I mean it was cute but def not anything Id run home about. Probably could of done without the whole ghosts of Christmas pasta with the batgirls because it was cringe and ultimately not very impactful. Also Babs talking to Dick like that on the phone while he was fighting lol it was cute  for the people that were the target audience.


I agree about the ghosts part, that could have been a good chance to see Dick/Cass/Steph team-up and strengthening their bonds since it looks like we'll be seeing some of it soon in the batgirls book
About Barbara I find it cute cause you can tell at same time Barbara is angry at Dick she's still very worried about him and I also like how intimate they sounds there

----------


## OBrianTallent

> The noises I made when I saw what's under the dust jacket


oh my word that is absolutely gorgeous!  Why does everything about this book be so freaking gorgeous!

----------


## Vordan

Bruce was such an asshole in Robin & Batman, had me cackling. Really enjoyed seeing Dick interact with the Titans, why cant we get something this engaging in an actual Titans book nowadays?

----------


## Godlike13

Robin and Batman is interesting because Bruce isn’t trying to be a jerk or mean, he just doesn’t know any better. Its just that, that is how he processes and copes. He trying to pass on what works for him onto Dick.

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## Frontier

> Robin and Batman in interesting because Bruce isn’t trying to be a jerk or mean, he just doesn’t know any better. Its just that that is how he processes and copes. He trying to pass on what works for him onto Dick.


Interesting contrast with YJ Bruce who seems like he was deliberately trying to make sure Dick didn't end up like him.

----------


## Grayson - The Dark Heir

> So what did y'all think about Dick's christmas story from Urban Legends #10 ? I thought it was pretty nice even tho it felt kinda off with the fear state crossover (mosy likely Tini wrote that story before fs ending I guess ?) still fun to read
> Gotta say I just love the way bat-writers are making Dick and Barbara interact currently as a couple, they just feel like a couple which has been married for +10 years lol
> Attachment 116250


I was a pretty big fan of it overall, but I wouldn't use that Babs interaction as the one to look to. It feels like everytime Dick and Babs interacts, she's just an asshole to him lmao. One of the small plusses of Taylor's run is Babs is at least mostly supportive of Dick and so they generally have positive interactions with each other. Like, it was pretty minor so it didn't bother me too much, especially since it's not like Babs was intentionally lashing out. The story establishes everyone misses Alfred and Dick is the glue for the family during Christmas time, so it makes sense. Cass in general also makes the ending strong enough that it works lol. 




> Interesting contrast with YJ Bruce who seems like he was deliberately trying to make sure Dick didn't end up like him.


TO be fair, that was 4 years into Dick being Robin. This Batman can also start to change towards that direction by the end of the story.

----------


## Restingvoice

> I put a voice to it in my head, imagine letting your gf see you like that
> Usually dick is angry but this daddy doesnt love me moment is hilarious until little Jason is seen outside


Oh, btw you're half right about Tumblr. While one half likes it because it's funny, the other half doesn't like it because Dick shouldn't feel guilty. That he has the right to refuse to join in the Christmas celebration with either Titans or the family because he was fired from Robin. So of course he doesn't wanna call Bruce. (I think they view the Christmas invite from Bruce and Dick angry about it as related to the whole fired from Robin thing. An apology and waiting for an apology for the firing)

----------


## Aahz

What I find a little confusing is that there is photo in the beginning that shows him celebrate Christmas with Jason and Bruce, so was that the year before or the year after?

----------


## MakeNightwingGreatAgain

> I was a pretty big fan of it overall, but I wouldn't use that Babs interaction as the one to look to. It feels like everytime Dick and Babs interacts, she's just an asshole to him lmao. One of the small plusses of Taylor's run is Babs is at least mostly supportive of Dick and so they generally have positive interactions with each other. Like, it was pretty minor so it didn't bother me too much, especially since it's not like Babs was intentionally lashing out. The story establishes everyone misses Alfred and Dick is the glue for the family during Christmas time, so it makes sense. Cass in general also makes the ending strong enough that it works lol.


This is a perf assessment of Dick Babs and why I have trouble supporting it. Ill give Tom Taylor credit for making Dick Babs palatable, but it doenst excuse the countless moments they have had where their relationship is just not working. Like I think in the Urban Legends story the aggressiveness from Babs was something I noticed but I'm so used to her treating Dick that way, and Dick just being a punching bag, that I now just overlook it and move on and try to enjoy the story for what it is. 

It is possible to enjoy something and then understand its flaws and how it sets a poor example of character. One should always point it out, but as long as there is a growth from it; I think it's ok. Taylor's DickBabs isn't growth per se, but its a step in the right direction for how Babs treats Dick but not the other way around. A better example of this is the batman and robin story. Yes, the way Bruce treats Dick sets a really horrible example of their relationship, but Dick and Bruce both change from their experience and that makes it worth the read to understand why they are the way they are. As long as there is growth and a payoff, then I'm ok with it. I think people forget that. It's just when people force it on a character or force a OOC development to happen that it becomes a problem.  

Character growth shouldn't reinforce a negative thing, but instead support a positive direction. I wish more people were as critical of the way Dick is treated by Babs as they are about the treatment he gets from Bruce. If the development for Babs is her being nicer in Taylor's run, then the development for Dick should be about not wanting to be around her because she treats him badly and needing space, but also acknowledging that she is trying to be a nicer person towards him. It's a good way to play off the development and eventually they can come back around as changed people, hopefully as friends/family.

Idk maybe I also just want to see Dick for once regrow that backbone and tell the batfam to F-off with their treatment of him and tell them that they either need to treat him like they actually want him around or he is leaving. I also am in favor of Dick punching Bruce BTAS style.

----------


## Rac7d*

> What I find a little confusing is that there is photo in the beginning that shows him celebrate Christmas with Jason and Bruce, so was that the year before or the year after?


was it jason and bruce or tim and bruce?

whats funnier a ewweeks ago we had a very mature teen grayson checking in on his little brother jason, so this is just hilarious

----------


## Aahz

> was it jason and bruce or tim and bruce?


That's pretty definitely Jason he is wearing the classic Robin Suit, Dick is in the Discowing Suit and Barbara is still Batgirl (Killing Joke happened when Jason was still Robin).

----------


## JackJustMetMartin

> Idk maybe I also just want to see Dick for once regrow that backbone and tell the batfam to F-off with their treatment of him and tell them that they either need to treat him like they actually want him around or he is leaving. I also am in favor of Dick punching Bruce BTAS style.


I really enjoyed Dick's advice to Tim in the recent Urban Legends for a similar reason to this. Dick finally says no, Bruce's mental health isn't my responsibility. It's minor, but I've been hoping for something like this for years.

----------


## Aahz

> whats funnier a ewweeks ago we had a very mature teen grayson checking in on his little brother jason, so this is just hilarious


The problem I have with stories like that is that the interaction between Dick and post crisis Jason was so limited (Batman #416 is really the only time they interact), that their whole dynamic is basically a retcon, and it often really feels inconsistent since their relation back than was never really fleshed out (same goes for Barbara and Jason).

----------


## Rac7d*

> The problem I have with stories like that is that the interaction between Dick and post crisis Jason was so limited (Batman #416 is really the only time they interact), that their whole dynamic is basically a retcon, and it often really feels inconsistent since their relation back than was never really fleshed out (same goes for Barbara and Jason).


Dick was hurt and angry so he didnt interact much with Jason, and then felt guilty when he died, hence why he takes interest and is so protective of tim and Damian
the retcons is what made Jason into the angry loose cannon robin, and those intractions are made out to be not the best

----------


## Spideyvinnegar

> Character growth shouldn't reinforce a negative thing, but instead support a positive direction. I wish more people were as critical of the way Dick is treated by Babs as they are about the treatment he gets from Bruce. If the development for Babs is her being nicer in Taylor's run, then the development for Dick should be about not wanting to be around her because she treats him badly and needing space, but also acknowledging that she is trying to be a nicer person towards him. It's a good way to play off the development and eventually they can come back around as changed people, hopefully as friends/family.


You really turned a little couple interaction into some theory about Barbara being abusive towards Dick just wow 
Let's take a look into it:
Dick just went off, ignored their calls and made the whole family worried and about to put their own lives on risk to look for him yeah that was kinda of a dick move I mean can anyone blame Barbara for getting mad at him ? lol
I feel like you're only focusing on Barbara being mad and ignoring the fact she's cleary very worried about him, in the last page she goes straight to hug with a relieved expression on her face, this is just how their dynamic has been since nightwing x oracle became a thing in the comics, in Taylor's run Barbara still gets mad at Dick when he goes to fight blockbuster on the top of a building while still recovering from a shot in the head

----------


## Rakiduam

> You really turned a little couple interaction into some theory about Barbara being abusive towards Dick just wow 
> Let's take a look into it:
> Dick just went off, ignored their calls and made the whole family worried and about to put their own lives on risk to look for him yeah that was kinda of a dick move I mean can anyone blame Barbara for getting mad at him ? lol
> I feel like you're only focusing on Barbara being mad and ignoring the fact she's cleary very worried about him, in the last page she goes straight to hug with a relieved expression on her face, this is just how their dynamic has been since nightwing x oracle became a thing in the comics, in Taylor's run Barbara still gets mad at Dick when he goes to fight blockbuster on the top of a building while still recovering from a shot in the head


...gee, it sounds like the relationship is just not good.

----------


## MakeNightwingGreatAgain

> You really turned a little couple interaction into some theory about Barbara being abusive towards Dick just wow 
> Let's take a look into it:
> Dick just went off, ignored their calls and made the whole family worried and about to put their own lives on risk to look for him yeah that was kinda of a dick move I mean can anyone blame Barbara for getting mad at him ? lol
> I feel like you're only focusing on Barbara being mad and ignoring the fact she's cleary very worried about him, in the last page she goes straight to hug with a relieved expression on her face, this is just how their dynamic has been since nightwing x oracle became a thing in the comics, in Taylor's run Barbara still gets mad at Dick when he goes to fight blockbuster on the top of a building while still recovering from a shot in the head


Sorry if it sounded like that to you but the person I was responding to made a comment about the overall treatment of Dick by Babs and that's what I was commenting on. To quote specifically, they said "It feels like everytime Dick and Babs interacts, she's just an asshole to him lmao." 

But I don't think that dynamic you talk about is one that should be projected as healthy, but if that's your thing that's your thing, its just not something I personally want to support.

----------


## Aahz

> Dick was hurt and angry so he didnt interact much with Jason, and then felt guilty when he died, hence why he takes interest and is so protective of tim and Damian
> the retcons is what made Jason into the angry loose cannon robin, and those intractions are made out to be not the best


What I mean more are stories like the Nightwing Annual that show Dick as supporting older Brother for Jason, or the Christmas Photo in this issue, that simply stuff that never really happened in in the original post crisis comics.

I anyway think that they should do some Jason as Robin series, to flash out his time as Robin a little bit, since there is still a lot that could be explored (opposed to the other Robins, or even pre crisis Jason).

----------


## Restingvoice

> What I find a little confusing is that there is photo in the beginning that shows him celebrate Christmas with Jason and Bruce, so was that the year before or the year after?


Hmm... 

Fired at 18... Jason was still in training...
Discowing is 19... Jason 12... Nightwing Annual 2021 and Batman 416
20... Jason 13
21... Jason 14 - Killing Joke
22... Jason 15 - Death

I'm gonna say that since the Nightwing Annual was based on Batman #416 and right after he's fired where his relation to Bruce was still strained, that's the one with Christmas Past while the year after was when he started joining again.

----------


## Grayson - The Dark Heir

> The problem I have with stories like that is that the interaction between Dick and post crisis Jason was so limited (Batman #416 is really the only time they interact), that their whole dynamic is basically a retcon, and it often really feels inconsistent since their relation back than was never really fleshed out (same goes for Barbara and Jason).


I'm just gonna say this, but it's not a retcon, it's a new continuity. We went from Barbara the Congresswoman who had at least 10 years on Dick once upon a time, to them being the same age now. These kinds of things change over time. Back then, it wasn't a priority to focus on Dick and Jason post-Crisis, but Dick being jammed into the Batfamily all the time now means they need to have an established relationship. Plus, they've had this sort of relationship since the New 52, just not with the classic costumes until Infinite Frontier.

----------


## Rac7d*

Hawkeye episode 3 made me wonder why we don’t have a good Batman and robin live action

----------


## Badou

Because DC/WB is horribly embarrassed at having a Robin team up with Batman in live action again after the Batman and Robin movie.

----------


## Lal

Shadows of the bats solicitations for March -
https://www.gamesradar.com/detective...ws-of-the-bat/

I'm not a fan of the implication that Bruce needs to return to save Dick's life, but I'll give them the benefit of the doubt here.

----------


## Godlike13

Man the people doing the solics are doing the story dirty giving away so much detail like that.

But ya, I get it. These stories need stakes. But the Batfamily is pretty big. Mix it up and have someone else take the bullet from time to time.

----------


## Frontier

> Shadows of the bats solicitations for March -
> https://www.gamesradar.com/detective...ws-of-the-bat/
> 
> I'm not a fan of the implication that Bruce needs to return to save Dick's life, but I'll give them the benefit of the doubt here.


I feel like I can buy into Harley trying to redeem myself better than I can Harley being a Batfamily ally.

----------


## Aahz

> I'm just gonna say this, but it's not a retcon, it's a new continuity. We went from Barbara the Congresswoman who had at least 10 years on Dick once upon a time, to them being the same age now. These kinds of things change over time. Back then, it wasn't a priority to focus on Dick and Jason post-Crisis, but Dick being jammed into the Batfamily all the time now means they need to have an established relationship. Plus, they've had this sort of relationship since the New 52, just not with the classic costumes until Infinite Frontier.


The age differnce between Dick and Barbara were only 7 years.

But the difference when you compare that with the Dick Barbara retcon is, that for this era we got at least some retractive stories. And despite the change of the age gap, their relation is not that different than how it was in the bronze Age and in several versions we have seen in other media. And there it is at least establishes that they both were active in Gotham for a longer period of time back than.

With Jason's time as Robin we never really got this, we only get short flashbacks that often lack a lot of context, and don't really fit with the old comics.

----------


## Restingvoice

> Shadows of the bats solicitations for March -
> https://www.gamesradar.com/detective...ws-of-the-bat/
> 
> I'm not a fan of the implication that Bruce needs to return to save Dick's life, but I'll give them the benefit of the doubt here.


If they have to do this, then I want it to be mushy
Like, I got you, son, you did good, wrapped in a bulletproof cape blanket, overprotective dad Bruce type of mushy

----------


## Avi

> Shadows of the bats solicitations for March -
> https://www.gamesradar.com/detective...ws-of-the-bat/
> 
> I'm not a fan of the implication that Bruce needs to return to save Dick's life, but I'll give them the benefit of the doubt here.


Not a fan either. And why is it Fear Toxin again? Enough with that already.




> If they have to do this, then I want it to be mushy
> Like, I got you, son, you did good, wrapped in a bulletproof cape blanket, overprotective dad Bruce type of mushy


Same.

----------


## Pohzee

Alright, so Nightwing has a 2 part Flash arc after his 2 part "Superman" arc. I'll give credit to Taylor for that. Bringing in some wider heroes from the DCU consistently.

----------


## Lal

> Alright, so Nightwing has a 2 part Flash arc after his 2 part "Superman" arc. I'll give credit to Taylor for that. Bringing in some wider heroes from the DCU consistently.


NIGHTWING #90
Written by TOM TAYLOR
Art by GERALDO BORGES
Cover by BRUNO REDONDO
Variant cover by JAMAL CAMPBELL
1:25 variant cover by CULLY HAMNER
The Batman variant cover by RICCARDO FEDERICI
$3.99 US | 32 pages | $4.99 US Variant (card stock)
ON SALE 3/15/22
A Nightwing and Wally West story, part 1 of 2! When it’s easier to go buy bagels as Nightwing than as Dick Grayson because everyone is either trying to get him for his money or kill him for the price on his head, Nightwing realizes he’ll need to enlist the help of his Teen Titan friends as his bodyguards, and the first to volunteer is of course his best friend…Wally West, a.k.a. the Flash!

From the solicitations, it sounds possible that other Titans may make guest appearances as his bodyguards?

So the first arc showed Dick's connections to the batfamily, and the second arc is showing his connections to the wider DCU. Nice.

I'm a bit concerned that Redondo is not doing the art, but hopefully he'll be back for the next issue.

----------


## Claude

> NIGHTWING #90
> Written by TOM TAYLOR
> Art by GERALDO BORGES
> Cover by BRUNO REDONDO
> Variant cover by JAMAL CAMPBELL
> 1:25 variant cover by CULLY HAMNER
> The Batman variant cover by RICCARDO FEDERICI
> $3.99 US | 32 pages | $4.99 US Variant (card stock)
> ON SALE 3/15/22
> ...


Redondo is doing art for the Son Of Kal-El issue that's the second part of the Nightwing crossover, so he's not really away! Seems a smart move - consistent.

----------


## Drako

We have a good amount of Nightwing in March, great!
He is all over the place!

https://www.buzzcomics.net/showpost....72&postcount=1

----------


## Drako

Awesome cover, by the way!

----------


## Frontier

I'm glad to see Dick and Wally together again, and it would probably be a good chance to spotlight his relationship with the other Titans (although I feel kind of awkward if Kori shows up), though not sure how I feel about the "bodyguard" premise.

----------


## Drako

> I'm glad to see Dick and Wally together again, and it would probably be a good chance to spotlight his relationship with the other Titans (although I feel kind of awkward if Kori shows up), though not sure how I feel about the "bodyguard" premise.


Dick Grayson needs a bodyguard, not Nightwing.
If he starts to defend himself as Dick Grayson, people would be suspicious.

----------


## Rac7d*

> I'm glad to see Dick and Wally together again, and it would probably be a good chance to spotlight his relationship with the other Titans (although I feel kind of awkward if Kori shows up), though not sure how I feel about the "bodyguard" premise.


She told us the readers and Wally to not feel awkward. Their adults, friends and colleagues. 

But 2022 looks good
Solo Title
Leading his own team
Mentoring the youth
Staying in touch with his family

He is covering all fronts.
I just need Animated, and Live action to pick it up.

----------


## Iclifton

Man as much as I love Wally I am not excited for the timing of this arc. I thought the pace of the first 6 issues was pretty good and understood the Fear State Crossover but at this point crossovers are getting to be a bit much. We got one solo arc then a 3 issue crossover followed up by 2 solo issues, a 2 issue Superman crossover and then a 2 issue crossover. So best case we do not get another solo arc that progresses the main arc until May.

----------


## Claude

Plus.... It's Batman and Robin!



(Solicits for the main title don't mention Dick but then, IIRC, the ones for Yang's run didn't either.)




> Man as much as I love Wally I am not excited for the timing of this arc. I thought the pace of the first 6 issues was pretty good and understood the Fear State Crossover but at this point crossovers are getting to be a bit much. We got one solo arc then a 3 issue crossover followed up by 2 solo issues, a 2 issue Superman crossover and then a 2 issue crossover. So best case we do not get another solo arc that progresses the main arc until May.


The Flash crossover, at least, seems to be tied into the ongoing story - being a response to Dick's new status quo, and the methods he has to take to protect himself.

And the Superman crossover is two issues - but only one of those is a Nightwing issue! And it seems unlikely, but we don't _know_ that doesn't further the Bludhaven plot.....

----------


## Drako

Dick is the one with connections to Superman, so it makes sense to be him.

----------


## Claude

> Dick is the one with connections to Superman, so i makes sense to be him.


Oh, sorry! Yeah, obviously the Robin is Dick - I meant more that the solicits don't mention Robin's involvement in the plot, so it might only be a very small appearance.

----------


## MakeNightwingGreatAgain

> She told us the readers and Wally to not feel awkward. Their adults, friends and colleagues. 
> 
> But 2022 looks good
> Solo Title
> Leading his own team
> Mentoring the youth
> Staying in touch with his family
> 
> He is covering all fronts.
> I just need Animated, and Live action to pick it up.


I mean this isnt exactly new direction for Dick. He normally does this. 2022 will be interesting for sure!

----------


## MakeNightwingGreatAgain

> I'm glad to see Dick and Wally together again, and it would probably be a good chance to spotlight his relationship with the other Titans (although I feel kind of awkward if Kori shows up), though not sure how I feel about the "bodyguard" premise.


Yeah I feel like this is a missed opportunity to introduce a more upper level villain that Dick would need help from a meta for! I feel the entire run is just missed opportunity all around. For someone who has the most creative freedom out of all Nightwing writers, he sure isn’t using any of it to make Dick stand out and actually have some direction and badass moments. Instead, we get Wally acting as a bodyguard for Dick as he is targeted for being a good natured person. And this is after a Superman and Nightwing team up!

----------


## Frontier

> Dick Grayson needs a bodyguard, not Nightwing.
> If he starts to defend himself as Dick Grayson, people would be suspicious.


Wouldn't it be kind of weird for a bunch of Superheroes to protect this one guy? I guess the Titans have done it before...



> She told us the readers and Wally to not feel awkward. Their adults, friends and colleagues.


Sounds awkward. Poor Kori...



> Plus.... It's Batman and Robin!
> 
> 
> 
> (Solicits for the main title don't mention Dick but then, IIRC, the ones for Yang's run didn't either.)


Looking good!

----------


## Drako

Some people really look for excuses to complain, huh? This thread is something else.

----------


## Frontier

> Some people really look for excuses to complain, huh? This thread is something else.


I mean, just my personal opinion...I don't try to be a downer...

----------


## Drako

> I mean, just my personal opinion...I don't try to be a downer...


I wasn't talking about you. But it's ok, people can dislike whatever they want.

----------


## Iclifton

> I wasn't talking about you. But it's ok, people can dislike whatever they want.


Lol yes. This thread blows my mind sometimes. Even my complaint about a Wally focused arc is more about wishing I had more solo issues because I am liking the run and would prefer to space the crossovers out. But still excited to see the book. However I am genuinely convinced that others would be unhappy with the run no matter what.

----------


## Blue22

Well I may be skipping Nightwing in February but that is being more than made up for by a team up with Wally in March! I am beyond stoked for that.

----------


## Frontier

For the record, I am hyped to see Dick and Wally together.

----------


## Iclifton

> For the record, I am hyped to see Dick and Wally together.


Sorry man, I also was not referring to you in my post. Replied to the wrong comment.

----------


## Lady Nightwing

Tumblr_l_106734654485925.jpg

Jamal Campbell absolutely knocking it out of the park again. This is the variant to issue 90. 

I'm excited to see Wally and Dick team up but at the same time, I want a few issues with Dick on his own.

----------


## Lady Nightwing

Tumblr_l_106491021144253.jpg

Travis Moore is doing a variant for the Superman comic. 

Between Redondo, Moore and Campbell those of us who like Dick drawn ridiculously attractive are absolutely spoiled  :Smile:

----------


## Rakiduam

> Some people really look for excuses to complain, huh? This thread is something else.


Pff complains about complain, so original.

Whatever, nice cover.

----------


## Drako

> Pff complains about complain, so original.
> 
> Whatever, nice cover.


Funny, i have the same reaction everytime i see the Bludhaven\Barbara Gordon\Batfamily complaints.

----------


## Badou

Bludhaven is so easy to complain about though.  :Stick Out Tongue: 

I would have rather had Redondo do the art on the Wally issues over the Jon Superman one. Since I just don't care about Jon as a character, but oh well. I guess this will be the first time Wally and Dick have interacted on panel together since the end of Abnett's first Titans run before Heroes in Crisis and Ric happened? Which was in May of 2018. So it will be nearly 4 years since then. I don't think the two have interacted on panel anywhere before then? I can't think of it if they have.

----------


## Rac7d*

> Bludhaven is so easy to complain about though. 
> 
> I would have rather had Redondo do the art on the Wally issues over the Jon Superman one. Since I just don't care about Jon as a character, but oh well. I guess this will be the first time Wally and Dick have interacted on panel together since the end of Abnett's first Titans run before Heroes in Crisis and Ric happened? Which was in May of 2018. So it will be nearly 4 years since then. I don't think the two have interacted on panel anywhere before then? I can't think of it if they have.


How about titans 4 days ago?

----------


## Claude

> How about titans 4 days ago?


They shared scenes, but I don't know if they spoke to each other? 


Good to see the Agent 37 look back in _Robins._

----------


## Frontier

When did Damian become Avatar Aang?

Also, they do realize Steph has a different Spoiler costume, right...?

----------


## Grayson - The Dark Heir

> 


Where'd this page come from? I've looked everywhere for it.  :Frown:

----------


## Zaresh

> When did Damian become Avatar Aang?
> 
> Also, they do realize Steph has a different Spoiler costume, right...?


Remember, this book is its own thing: not DCU continuity, even when it plays a lot with it.

----------


## Badou

> How about titans 4 days ago?


Did they interact there?

----------


## Rac7d*

> When did Damian become Avatar Aang?
> 
> Also, they do realize Steph has a different Spoiler costume, right...?


When was red hood in Nascar

----------


## Vordan

> Where'd this page come from? I've looked everywhere for it.


DC Connect

----------


## Lal

So in March, we have Nightwing in :

Nightwing 90
Superman son of Kal-El 9
Shadows of the Bat event: Detective comics 1055-1057 (very likely he'll be in 1058 as well, but he's not mentioned in the solicitations of that issue)
War for Earth-3 event: War for Earth-3 #1, War for Earth-3 #2, and TTA 13 (Flash 780 and SS13 are also part of this event)
Titans United
Robins
and maybe Fututre state Gotham 11?

That's quite impressive.

----------


## Zaresh

> When was red hood in Nascar


I was thinking about illegal racing before. But @RedBird worked a really nice theory based in this cover and the solicit: it could show "what if" fake realities for them in they never meet Batman or become Robin. I like that theory.

----------


## mib86

> When did Damian become Avatar Aang?


That's an unexpected cross-over
I suppose this means  Bat-cow was Appa all along

----------


## Rakiduam

> Funny, i have the same reaction everytime i see the Bludhaven\Barbara Gordon\Batfamily complaints.


At least you are having fun with something, because Bludhaven\Barbara Gordon\Batfamily aren't fun at all for me.




> Bludhaven is so easy to complain about though. 
> 
> I would have rather had Redondo do the art on the Wally issues over the Jon Superman one. Since I just don't care about Jon as a character, but oh well. I guess this will be the first time Wally and Dick have interacted on panel together since the end of Abnett's first Titans run before Heroes in Crisis and Ric happened? Which was in May of 2018. So it will be nearly 4 years since then. I don't think the two have interacted on panel anywhere before then? I can't think of it if they have.


For what I seen of Geraldo Borges, he is a pretty dynamic artist, he should do well enough with Dick and Nightwing, even if he can't carry the story in the way Redondo does.

Frankly I think Wally and Dick friendship is so well regarded because they have interacted so little in  this new era, so all we have of them is what it used to be, and the were great.

----------


## Digifiend

> I'm not so sure about that. He joined the New Teen Titans almost immediately after he dropped out of college his freshmen year of college.





> When did Damian become Avatar Aang?
> 
> Also, they do realize Steph has a different Spoiler costume, right...?


They should've used her Batgirl costume IMHO.

----------


## Frontier

> They should've used her Batgirl costume IMHO.


Well, her current Spoiler costume is more or less her base Batgirl design without the cowl, especially with the Bat-Chest logo, which is why her classic look would've been a better contrast in my opinion.

----------


## WonderNight

Still wish we could get a Nightwing/flash book. If wonder woman can have to books, than so can Nightwing.

----------


## Restingvoice

Get Grayson

----------


## Frontier

I wonder what those women are happy about...

----------


## Claude

Idle thoughts - by the time next months solicits come out, we'll likely have new writers known for Titans and Justice League. With Taylor riding high at the moment sales-wise as well as critically, and having just gone DC Exclusive, he's surely at least as likely as anyone else to get one or other of those books.

Personally, I think he'd do better work on Titans that Justice League as the characters are more within his wheelhouse - and I wouldn't be 100% shocked if this Nightwing/Flash crossover wasn't designed to lead into a Taylor run on Titans anyway - but it does make you wonder... He's a guy keen on crossovers and pushing his favourites.

Would a Taylor Justice League have Nightwing as a member? Would we _want_ it to?

----------


## Restingvoice

DC Vampires #6 teaser of vampire Nightwing by Fransesco Mattina

----------


## Lady Nightwing

Does this mean Dick is taken off the board in a big DC event? *gasp* That almost never happens! /s

Awesome artwork though. Should have got more of that cool vampire killing nano tech from Spyral

----------


## Avi

> Idle thoughts - by the time next months solicits come out, we'll likely have new writers known for Titans and Justice League. With Taylor riding high at the moment sales-wise as well as critically, and having just gone DC Exclusive, he's surely at least as likely as anyone else to get one or other of those books.
> 
> Personally, I think he'd do better work on Titans that Justice League as the characters are more within his wheelhouse - and I wouldn't be 100% shocked if this Nightwing/Flash crossover wasn't designed to lead into a Taylor run on Titans anyway - but it does make you wonder... He's a guy keen on crossovers and pushing his favourites.
> 
> Would a Taylor Justice League have Nightwing as a member? Would we _want_ it to?


If Taylor gets JL and is preparing for it in Superman and Nightwing, I wouldn't mind seeing Dick in a League with Wally, Jon, Jackson, Yara and Jo.

Dick in a normal JL wouldn't work, imo, despite it offering interesting character dynamics. I also don't think DC wants him there.

I think it's likelier that Hopeless or Thompson is taking over Titans than Taylor.




> DC Vampires #6 teaser of vampire Nightwing by Fransesco Mattina


Nice. Dick doesn't usually get a Variant on those big books. And with every Variant featuring a Vamp version of the heroes, he might just survive this one, lol.

----------


## Drako

He became a Monster\Vampire not too long ago.

----------


## bearman

Nightwing is long overdue for League membership. Batman  blocking his acceptance has always been bogus.

----------


## Rac7d*

> Nightwing is long overdue for League membership. Batman  blocking his acceptance has always been bogus.


The league is lame anyway.

----------


## bearman

It’s ridiculous in many ways. But in-universe, it’s vital. As Bruce predicted, I want Dick to lead it one day. I believe the Dick’n Donna League is out of continuity, but Dick did a great job there.

----------


## WonderNight

A JL with Dick, Wally, Jon, Yara, Jo and Jackson could be a cool legacy team. It diverse and Dick and Wally as the veterans and mentors of the new generation JL would be interesting.

----------


## John Venus

Dick leading the League just implies the Titans are just Justice League Jr and not their own thing.  I don't mind Donna leading the League. 

I would love to see Dick lead a Justice League Incarnate team or be forced to lead a Suicide Squad team.

----------


## Lal

> Dick leading the League just implies the Titans are just Justice League Jr and not their own thing.  I don't mind Donna leading the League. 
> 
> I would love to see Dick lead a Justice League Incarnate team or be forced to lead a Suicide Squad team.


I think at this point the Suicide squad is the only team DC still has around that Dick never lead. 
He led the Titans, Outsiders, and even the JL for short times.
I can't really see him leading the suicide squad, though. He'd find a way outside of it.

----------


## Vordan

> The league is lame anyway.


…and the Titans aren’t  :Stick Out Tongue: ?

----------


## Godlike13

The league is a road that goes nowhere for Dick. Thats Batmans team. Theres no actual opportunity there for him. Id be little more then notch on his belt, but its not gonna lead to things he doesnt already have. As bad as Titans comics are, Titans will lead to more. Like JL movies and game arent gonna be done with Dick. Titans on the other hand. Titans comics just need to be better. In the long run better Titans material will serve Dick better then temporary stints on the JL.

----------


## Badou

People act like he can't do both. The fact is that the JL is the premier superhero team in the DCU. This isn't debatable. If you want Dick to be looked at as on the same level as the top heroes in the DCU and have more influence then he has to join the JL. He should be a fully accepted member. Not a temporary member or a fill in one when the actual top heroes are out of town, but a legitimate member that has a seat at the table with everyone else. I don't care about him leading the team, or how it will help him in other media, but the fact that Dick isn't a JL member despite being one of the longest tenured heroes in the DCU reflects poorly on him and his standing compared to other top heroes. It will always be held against him.

As garbage as the Titans are in the comics and how little they actually contribute any good stories for Dick they aren't going anywhere for him. People don't need to worry about it. This weird idea that Dick can't be on both the JL and Titans is just bizarre to me. Other top heroes can be on multiple teams but Dick can't? Not like I'm asking him to be THE focus of the JL but just a member. You can even have him on the JL representing the Titans and their viewpoints on serious issues if you want.

----------


## 9th.

I think he'd do great on JL again if given another chance. It's not like he can't be on multiple teams and it's ridiculous to imply he can't, he has the stature and skill to do so. Let's be real Titans is not going anywhere anytime soon, the comic has been underwhelming for a long time now.

----------


## Claude

> People act like he can't do both. The fact is that the JL is the premier superhero team in the DCU. This isn't debatable. If you want Dick to be looked at as on the same level as the top heroes in the DCU and have more influence then he has to join the JL. He should be a fully accepted member. Not a temporary member or a fill in one when the actual top heroes are out of town, but a legitimate member that has a seat at the table with everyone else. I don't care about him leading the team, or how it will help him in other media, but the fact that Dick isn't a JL member despite being one of the longest tenured heroes in the DCU reflects poorly on him and his standing compared to other top heroes. It will always be held against him.


I quite like the idea that's been surprisingly consistent since the 90s (Off the top of my head in Morrison, Metlzer and Johns' runs at least) that the only reason Nightwing isn't on the League is because he doesn't want to be and turns down the offer. 

Only really works if what he's doing instead is more interesting, though. Which... Eh. 

Hard pressed to think of any character who's actually benefitted from League membership in recent years, though - no one's favourite character has had their favourite moment in Justice League rather than their solo this century. The only exception is maybe Aquaman, because it let Throne Of Atlantis happen which was big for a bit.

----------


## Godlike13

Unless it ups his exposure and marketability the JL isn’t giving him any greater influence or status. That’s how characters actually gain more influence and status. The JL isn’t this king maker. It’s the the premier superhero team because it has the premier characters. We have seen many characters come and go, it doesn’t just elevate any character to the levels of Batman or Superman. No one sees the likes Aztek or Vibe above the level of Nightwing cause they were on the JL and he wasn’t.

 If someone has story for it like Obsidian Age, have at it. But being on it just for the sake of being on it. I could take it or leave it. It’s not gonna give him a solo he doesn’t already have, or put him in any movies or games. So this idea that it would up his legitimacy or profile I just don’t see it actually doing that.

----------


## Drako

It would be cool for him to be in the League for a while, but there is nothing that being in the JL comic book offers him in the long haul.
Comic books does nothing for the popularity of a character this days. Cyborg was in that book for years and still can't have a solo for more than a year.

Nightwing already is one of the best selling characters of DC, outselling Flash, Wonder Woman, Aquaman, Green Lantern and the others "top heroes", anyways.

----------


## Rac7d*

> It’s ridiculous in many ways. But in-universe, it’s vital. As Bruce predicted, I want Dick to lead it one day. I believe the Dick’n Donna League is out of continuity, but Dick did a great job there.


I’ll just never be over having the rebirth titans ( a group of equally powerful, responsible and experienced adults) being shut down while the illegal task force X, that isn’t above abducting children or the actually minor who need supervision and held and illegal prison.

The book itself hasn’t been intresting for a while, the team seems more like a
Place to advertise or prop up characters of DCs choosing, not and honor.

----------


## Rac7d*

> …and the Titans aren’t ?


Rebirth was fun pure comic book shenanigans until the end of the troia arc

----------


## Godlike13

Eeh, Rebirth Titans was rather terrible pretty much from Titans Hunt. People were just glad to see them together, but the run itself was quite bad.

----------


## Badou

You increase a character's influence by having them appear more and having them interact with other established characters. The idea that Dick joining the JL doesn't do either of these things is crazy. Even in a very limited capacity it does. He's appearing in another ongoing high profile book and he is then forced to interact with characters he rarely interacts with. There is literally zero downside. He already gets ignored or treated badly in any big DCU events without being a member of the JL, so there is nowhere to go but up for him. I don't care if he isn't the focus or the leader, but I just want him in universe to be looked at as on the same level as the rest of the top heroes in the DCU and joining the JL is a step closer to that. 

The entire way I look at the character is that I want them put in the best position to succeed. To have the most opportunities to be in good stories, and him being treated as a full JL member helps with that. It isn't about trying to compete with Batman or Superman. He's never going to pass them or be as big as them so that is the wrong way to look at it. I just want Dick's character to be as successful as he can be, and to me that is him being a member of the JL, leader of the Titans, and having an ongoing solo book all at the same time. That doesn't seem unreasonable given his profile. 

No character has actually suffered because they joined the JL. Cyborg's problems weren't because he was put on the JL itself, but because they erased his history with the Titans to do it. Had they just kept his history and he naturally joined the JL overtime it would have been an easier transition. Still, Cyborg's character had never been bigger than when he was on the JL. He was appearing in big events, he was getting solo books, appearing in JL books, and appeared in a JL movie. Sure the movie was bad, but he had the opportunity at least which is what you want for characters. He went from that to now being a secondary character in a Titans Academy book after being taken off the JL roster. So a pretty steep fall. 

But Cyborg is a poor comparison to make because Dick is already an established solo character. He isn't reliant on the JL book to completely support him. Joining the JL and appearing in it is just additive to what his character already is rather than being completely dependent on it for his entire direction.

----------


## Rac7d*

> Eeh, Rebirth Titans was rather terrible pretty much from Titans Hunt. People were just glad to see them together, but the run itself was quite bad.


really it was?
team who worked well together and already had a rapport
I wish we had a few more arcs
stories never dragged on too long
allso it would have made for a better transitioin into the current academy

----------


## Badou

Abnett wrote the single worst Dick Grayson I've ever read in his Rebirth Titans run. I don't know how anyone can read that series and think it helps Dick's character.

----------


## The World

> You increase a character's influence by having them appear more and having them interact with other established characters. The idea that Dick joining the JL doesn't do either of these things is crazy. Even in a very limited capacity it does. He's appearing in another ongoing high profile book and he is then forced to interact with characters he rarely interacts with. There is literally zero downside. He already gets ignored or treated badly in any big DCU events without being a member of the JL, so there is nowhere to go but up for him. I don't care if he isn't the focus or the leader, but I just want him in universe to be looked at as on the same level as the rest of the top heroes in the DCU and joining the JL is a step closer to that. 
> 
> The entire way I look at the character is that I want them put in the best position to succeed. To have the most opportunities to be in good stories, and him being treated as a full JL member helps with that. It isn't about trying to compete with Batman or Superman. He's never going to pass them or be as big as them so that is the wrong way to look at it. I just want Dick's character to be as successful as he can be, and to me that is him being a member of the JL, leader of the Titans, and having an ongoing solo book all at the same time. That doesn't seem unreasonable given his profile. 
> 
> No character has actually suffered because they joined the JL. Cyborg's problems weren't because he was put on the JL itself, but because they erased his history with the Titans to do it. Had they just kept his history and he naturally joined the JL overtime it would have been an easier transition. Still, Cyborg's character had never been bigger than when he was on the JL. He was appearing in big events, he was getting solo books, appearing in JL books, and appeared in a JL movie. Sure the movie was bad, but he had the opportunity at least which is what you want for characters. He went from that to now being a secondary character in a Titans Academy book after being taken off the JL roster. So a pretty steep fall. 
> 
> But Cyborg is a poor comparison to make because Dick is already an established solo character. He isn't reliant on the JL book to completely support him. Joining the JL and appearing in it is just additive to what his character already is rather than being completely dependent on it for his entire direction.


Pretty strong argument I can't deny. Still I don't think much would come of it in the end. He'd probably just end up getting unfavorable comparisons to Bruce. But I also view the Titans as a complete dead end as well.

----------


## Iclifton

> You increase a character's influence by having them appear more and having them interact with other established characters. The idea that Dick joining the JL doesn't do either of these things is crazy. Even in a very limited capacity it does. He's appearing in another ongoing high profile book and he is then forced to interact with characters he rarely interacts with. There is literally zero downside. He already gets ignored or treated badly in any big DCU events without being a member of the JL, so there is nowhere to go but up for him. I don't care if he isn't the focus or the leader, but I just want him in universe to be looked at as on the same level as the rest of the top heroes in the DCU and joining the JL is a step closer to that. 
> 
> The entire way I look at the character is that I want them put in the best position to succeed. To have the most opportunities to be in good stories, and him being treated as a full JL member helps with that. It isn't about trying to compete with Batman or Superman. He's never going to pass them or be as big as them so that is the wrong way to look at it. I just want Dick's character to be as successful as he can be, and to me that is him being a member of the JL, leader of the Titans, and having an ongoing solo book all at the same time. That doesn't seem unreasonable given his profile. 
> 
> No character has actually suffered because they joined the JL. Cyborg's problems weren't because he was put on the JL itself, but because they erased his history with the Titans to do it. Had they just kept his history and he naturally joined the JL overtime it would have been an easier transition. Still, Cyborg's character had never been bigger than when he was on the JL. He was appearing in big events, he was getting solo books, appearing in JL books, and appeared in a JL movie. Sure the movie was bad, but he had the opportunity at least which is what you want for characters. He went from that to now being a secondary character in a Titans Academy book after being taken off the JL roster. So a pretty steep fall. 
> 
> But Cyborg is a poor comparison to make because Dick is already an established solo character. He isn't reliant on the JL book to completely support him. Joining the JL and appearing in it is just additive to what his character already is rather than being completely dependent on it for his entire direction.


This I 100% agree with. No matter whether a certain storyline may sound interesting or not, the more eyes on the character the better. No bad can come from Nightwing being a member on DC`s biggest team. I would be beyond excite to read a League book with Grayson. It is overdue. It does alot more for the character than leading a Titans book.

----------


## Vordan

> Rebirth was fun pure comic book shenanigans until the end of the troia arc


Glad you liked it man but the general consensus Ive seen is that it was boring to terrible, one of the weakest Rebirth books.

----------


## Frontier

Even if they put him on the JL, I doubt it would be any more permanent than it would be if other Titans members make the jump because inevitably they'll just default to the base JL.

----------


## Iclifton

> Even if they put him on the JL, I doubt it would be any more permanent than it would be if other Titans members make the jump because inevitably they'll just default to the base JL.


I do not think anybody thinks it would last forever. Still gives the character another high profile book with a more than likely high profile team that demonstrates his marketability as a character.

----------


## Frontier

> I do not think anybody thinks it would last forever. Still gives the character another high profile book with a more than likely high profile team that demonstrates his marketability as a character.


Assuming the writing is good.

----------


## Iclifton

Even if the writing sucks, he gains more being on the League than not being there at all.

----------


## Grayson - The Dark Heir

Dick's led the JLA during the Obsidian Age, formed a JLA as Batman during the Reborn era, and had the remnants of the JL, JLD, JLO, and eventually the Legion of Doom rally around him to form a temporary JL during Doom Metal. 

I think all three times made for great stories, so I only see him on the League again, temporarily or not, as a good thing.

----------


## Frontier

> Even if the writing sucks, he gains more being on the League than not being there at all.


So I guess that's the one difference with the Titans.

----------


## Iclifton

> So I guess that's the one difference with the Titans.


Pretty much. Speaking for myself, all of the Titan revivals have felt completely pointless. I feel like you need a strong team with a vision and mission statement for the Titans. Otherwise its just a bunch of young adults hanging out. New Teen Titans was successful because it genuinely felt fresh and exciting.

----------


## Frontier

> Pretty much. Speaking for myself, all of the Titan revivals have felt completely pointless. I feel like you need a strong team with a vision and mission statement for the Titans. Otherwise its just a bunch of young adults hanging out. New Teen Titans was successful because it genuinely felt fresh and exciting.


I personally feel like Dick works better with the Titans and the team has been saddled with bad writing/execution for too long now.

----------


## Vordan

> I personally feel like Dick works better with the Titans and the team has been saddled with bad writing/execution for too long now.


If you think the team has been saddled with bad writing/execution for too long how has Dick worked better then  :Stick Out Tongue: ?

I get wanting Dick to be with the team where he first broke free of Batman, but Titans just doesn’t mean much anymore and hasn’t for ages. All that’s keeping the team together is nostalgia at this point.

----------


## Iclifton

> I personally feel like Dick works better with the Titans and the team has been saddled with bad writing/execution for too long now.


Him joining the League does not mean he would never be a member of the Titans. I want to seem him on as many teams as possible. However, Titans certainly does not have the prestige the League does.

I would love to see a great Titans book though. Hopefully one with a clear mission statement and talented team. Since the New Teen Titans everything has felt uninspired and lackluster. Even the character dynamics and interactions are just repeats of previous stories. If the Titans are going to work they need a major shake up.

----------


## Iclifton

> If you think the team has been saddled with bad writing/execution for too long how has Dick worked better then ?
> 
> I get wanting Dick to be with the team where he first broke free of Batman, but Titans just doesn’t mean much anymore and hasn’t for ages. All that’s keeping the team together is nostalgia at this point.


I do think that up until recently (the departure of Didio) the Titans generation had editorial working against them and due to that Dick never quite sustained his potential in his solo title. But I am thankful because we have gotten a ton of classic Dick Grayson stories, a lot more than fans of other characters have gotten. 

This decade alone we got BanR, Gate of Gotham, Black Mirror, Nightwing Rebirth, Taylor Nightwing (I understand the direction is not for everyone but at least we can agree it is an A-list team and is receiving a push) and Grayson. Not to mention he is getting appearances in a lot of other books. 

Imagine how hard it is for Tim fans the last decade. My heart goes out to them. Character had a solo book since his debut as Robin and since 2011 he has not even had so much as a mini devoted to him.

Props to the current DC regime, this feels like the first time DC is embracing the characters potential.

----------


## Rac7d*

I hope dick meets Yara next

----------


## Rac7d*

4508824C-7646-431C-BF35-B56B79995CE1.jpg

Lokis good

----------


## Frontier

> If you think the team has been saddled with bad writing/execution for too long how has Dick worked better then ?
> 
> I get wanting Dick to be with the team where he first broke free of Batman, but Titans just doesn’t mean much anymore and hasn’t for ages. All that’s keeping the team together is nostalgia at this point.





> Him joining the League does not mean he would never be a member of the Titans. I want to seem him on as many teams as possible. However, Titans certainly does not have the prestige the League does.
> 
> I would love to see a great Titans book though. Hopefully one with a clear mission statement and talented team. Since the New Teen Titans everything has felt uninspired and lackluster. Even the character dynamics and interactions are just repeats of previous stories. If the Titans are going to work they need a major shake up.


Yeah, but the Titans are like his team. I feel personally invested in seeing him succeed with them moreso than I do Dick just joining the Justice League for a year or two.

----------


## WonderNight

Yeah dick be both a titan and leaguer. Continue to have him teach at the academy as a titan and also have his OWN league team with Wally, jon and yara.

Justice League Legecy! Or New Justice League etc.

All I know is I'd rather dick be a role player on a championship team than be the mvp of the g league.

----------


## MakeNightwingGreatAgain

> If you think the team has been saddled with bad writing/execution for too long how has Dick worked better then ?
> 
> I get wanting Dick to be with the team where he first broke free of Batman, but Titans just doesnt mean much anymore and hasnt for ages. All thats keeping the team together is nostalgia at this point.


Agreed. Metaphorically speaking, Batfam is his early life. Aiken to those first steps you take as a child. Moments that matter indefinitely and clearly, these people are your family. Then, Titans, on the other hand, represent his teen years. The first love, the first heartbreak, the found family amongst your best friends. The uncertainty of the future. From there, there is only one way to move, and that is forward, with Spyral representing his adult (young adult and older) life. Its complex, it's a whirlwind of freedom. Finding your one true love, buying that first house, finding a job in your dream career. 

Metaphors aside, I'm just saying that Dick has options to move past Titans and Batfam in the form of establishing a new status quo. Spyral is right there. It also gives the chance to actually explore that Brave and Bold take on him. Imagine it, Nightwing Solo and then Spyral with Dick as one of the main spies. I can see it now! Also, Justice League lacks the spy archetype on their team. Dick can easily fill that roll and still be signficantly different thatn Batman.

Tom Taylor has all this power. He should be using it to establish something new and interesting for Dick instead of going down memory lane. Nostalgia is great and all, but some things are better left in the past, where it worked better.

----------


## Restingvoice

Specifically
Gotham - Batman and Robin - Childhood
Teen Titans - Teen - Growing apart
Hudson University and Titans - College - Away from the family
Kightsend - Prodigal - Return from college - Job searching
Bludhaven - Young Adulthood - First Job 

At this moment it should launch further than that into adulthood but this is when his life started to get interfered beyond simply canceled marriage with Starfire or Barbara

There's Chicago, Batman of Gotham, Justice League, Nightwing of Gotham and Chicago, Agent 37, then back and forth as Nightwing between Bludhaven and Gotham and Bludhaven again, Titans again, Justice League again and Titans again

It's easy to say that his adulthood is Batman and Justice League but as I said in the past, he doesn't like to be Batman, he just fills in out of obligation, then it became longer because he has a kid to take care of. The adventure was cut short with New 52, but even without it, it would've been cut when Damian died, even after Morrison said he wanted to write more Dick and Damian before ending it. Point is, it's gonna end eventually. 

So what is his adulthood? There are some options that he has already undergone.  ​

I'm just gonna say again it's not Spyral because like Batman it's not a job that he enjoys unless Spyral takes a completely different form. 

Titans can be something that he gathers because it's a group of friends and will continue to be a group of friends, that's not something that he'll completely erase out from his life

Assuming Bludhaven survive the Crisis with Blockbuster dead, he will remain there, because he's got friends both as civilian and in the force, and he did work hard to keep that city clean

Justice League, if it didn't become the elitist club it was in New 52 and Rerbirth, and instead become more like Justice League United, or Snyder's League where all former members are honored even if they're not currently member, and can be called anytime, with Nightwing has been a leader at least twice and endorsed by the Trinity, he would have permanent membership, even if he himself isn't available at that time.

Haly's Circus... depends. Both continuities ended with burning them away, by Joker or by Blockbuster, but we're already retconning Dick's time as cop and Bludhaven itself, so it can easily be brought back. 

So that's the setup. 

The impression I got with his flexibility is as an adult he can be everywhere. A hero of Bludhaven, a guardian of Haly's Circus, a mentor to Damian or other younger heroes, a leader of Titans whenever they gather, a member of Justice League whenever available

Right now I see him as a freelancer where he goes wherever duty calls.

I see him as leading his own book headquartered in Bludhaven (because it's been retconned back to existence right now and with the occasional visit of Haly's Circus if it returns) while having guest appearances in Bat-family books, Titans, Justice League, Outsiders, and Leviathan or wherever Spyral exists. 

The anchor is the Nightwing solo book. Everywhere else is optional, but he should be as regular or semi-regular there as Batman who can appear everywhere as well.

----------


## Lal

While I'd like Dick to be invited to the JL and occasionally team up with them, the Titans brand is more likely to help Nightwing in outside media adaptations. 
The Titans are actually doing nicely outside of Comics. Season 3 of Titans, while far from being great, is now the 4th most-watched show on Netflix -
https://www.tvfandomlounge.com/2021/...world-netflix/

I hope DC would give Taylor the Titans. I know it's more likely he'll write the JL, but he loves Dick and Wally, and he writes great character moments. He's more suited to write the Titans than the JL.

----------


## Badou

> Even if they put him on the JL, I doubt it would be any more permanent than it would be if other Titans members make the jump because inevitably they'll just default to the base JL.


Outside of Batman nearly all the JL members rotate in and out of the team, but it doesn't mean they aren't still looked at as JL members. That is what I want for Dick. He doesn't have to be in every single JL run but in universe he is looked at and treated as a JL member where he rotates in and out of the main roster.

----------


## Rac7d*

> Outside of Batman nearly all the JL members rotate in and out of the team, but it doesn't mean they aren't still looked at as JL members. That is what I want for Dick. He doesn't have to be in every single JL run but in universe he is looked at and treated as a JL member where he rotates in and out of the main roster.


What does it mean to be treated as a JL memeber?
When I look at them all, I would dick has it better then most on this list

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List...League_members

----------


## Godlike13

#87 was really cool. I hope to see more of this kind of experimentation. The biggest problem with Bludhaven IMO is that it exists to perpetuate a classic formula. One we see over and over. So things can become stale and less than. But with #87 just by changing how they tell and present it’s story, they take a rather simple fun story and make it innovative and special. All of a sudden this book is doing something different, cause this kind of storytelling is different. Please, more of this. More of trying a new thing with the old things.

----------


## Lal

> #87 was really cool. I hope to see more of this kind of experimentation. The biggest problem with Bludhaven IMO is that it exists to perpetuate a classic formula. One we see over and over. So things can become stale and less than. But with #87 just by changing how they tell and present its story, they take a rather simple fun story and make it innovative and special. All of a sudden this book is doing something different, cause this kind of storytelling is different. Please, more of this. More of trying a new thing with the old things.


It was also not only fun to see the city a bit differently, it actually also helped establish Bludhaven as a unique city, different from Gotham. 
It was great to see the people's reactions to the chase, the Nightwing graffiti, the kids playing Nightwing with the Escrima sticks... It was great. An extremely short read, but great.

----------


## Frontier

> Outside of Batman nearly all the JL members rotate in and out of the team, but it doesn't mean they aren't still looked at as JL members. That is what I want for Dick. He doesn't have to be in every single JL run but in universe he is looked at and treated as a JL member where he rotates in and out of the main roster.


Well, by that logic shouldn't Dick be seen as a JL member because of his Batman tenure?

----------


## Badou

> What does it mean to be treated as a JL memeber?
> When I look at them all, I would dick has it better then most on this list
> 
> https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List...League_members


Abnett's Rebirth is a good example. Having Bruce shut down Dick's superhero team to then have the JL absorb their responsibilities is something that wouldn't have happened if Dick was on the same level as them and on the JL. Being invited to the JL table to discuss major DCU events. There is a status that comes with being on the JL in the DCU that Dick doesn't have basically that lowers his ceiling as a character. I feel like it is pretty straightforward. 




> #87 was really cool. I hope to see more of this kind of experimentation. The biggest problem with Bludhaven IMO is that it exists to perpetuate a classic formula. One we see over and over. So things can become stale and less than. But with #87 just by changing how they tell and present it’s story, they take a rather simple fun story and make it innovative and special. All of a sudden this book is doing something different, cause this kind of storytelling is different. Please, more of this. More of trying a new thing with the old things.


But nothing about the issue made it need to be set in Bludhaven. All the villains in the 20s era mobster style clothing made it come across more like Gotham to me honestly. 

Overall the issue was a great way to show off Redondo's art. He is still the biggest reason to read the series, imo. So it was nice to see him flex his muscle some on the issue, but the story itself was pretty short. Then again I am someone that doesn't care about the dog at all. To me it feels like a cheap gimmick to try and create some emotional response over writing an actual good story, but I get some like the dog.

----------


## Badou

> Well, by that logic shouldn't Dick be seen as a JL member because of his Batman tenure?


I think he should be, but he isn't. He is only considered one if Bruce is gone. So it is more of a fill in or temp member. I want him to be considered one regardless if Bruce is there or not. Even have both him and Bruce serve on the same team occasionally. In Johns' JL run you had that whole scene of the JL members talking about adding new members in the New 52 and Bruce asked Dick to come but Dick only came because Bruce tricked him and then Dick got all upset and refused. Stuff like that I think is dumb.

----------


## Frontier

> I think he should be, but he isn't. He is only considered one if Bruce is gone. So it is more of a fill in or temp member. I want him to be considered one regardless if Bruce is there or not. Even have both him and Bruce serve on the same team occasionally. In Johns' JL run you had that whole scene of the JL members talking about adding new members in the New 52 and Bruce asked Dick to come but Dick only came because Bruce tricked him and then Dick got all upset and refused. Stuff like that I think is dumb.


Would you want him in a leadership role or as just another member?

----------


## Claude

> Being invited to the JL table to discuss major DCU events. There is a status that comes with being on the JL in the DCU that Dick doesn't have basically that lowers his ceiling as a character. I feel like it is pretty straightforward.


Teen Titans Academy had a decent shot at that kind of thing in Shazam #1, in fairness - with the idea that the Titans are more help in cases of Magical Disaster than the League. 

Couldn't honestly tell you what happened after that, though, to be honest. I've quite liked TTA, but the delays mean I've forgotten almost everything it's supposedly building to! 






> But nothing about the issue made it need to be set in Bludhaven. All the villains in the 20s era mobster style clothing made it come across more like Gotham to me honestly. 
> 
> Overall the issue was a great way to show off Redondo's art. He is still the biggest reason to read the series, imo. So it was nice to see him flex his muscle some on the issue, but the story itself was pretty short. Then again I am someone that doesn't care about the dog at all. To me it feels like a cheap gimmick to try and create some emotional response over writing an actual good story, but I get some like the dog.


I dunno, in the Bludhaven vs Gotham stakes you got things like him being a Flash style local celebrity to the point where people would just lend him their motorbike, and an almost picture-book quality to it that would have been out of place in Gotham. The vibe was very different, which is enough for me.



(I think I'd feel like the dog was less of a gimmick if Taylor hadn't done the same thing with Deadshot. And Johns with Aquaman. And Fraction in Hawkeye. But if its *Dick and Barbara's* puppy rather than just Dick's, that's at least a drama free way to show the relationship developing.)

----------


## Frontier

When was the last time a hero got a cat?

----------


## Badou

> Would you want him in a leadership role or as just another member?


I don't care if he leads or not. My main goal is that I want Dick's character in more high profile books interacting with other established characters and joining the JL accomplishes that, along with gaining an elevated status in the DCU. My ideal scenario would be he is a JL member, leader of the Titans, and has a solo book all that the same time. Dick's been a hero for 15-20 years in current continuity I think. So I feel like he can do all three. 




> Teen Titans Academy had a decent shot at that kind of thing in Shazam #1, in fairness - with the idea that the Titans are more help in cases of Magical Disaster than the League. 
> 
> Couldn't honestly tell you what happened after that, though, to be honest. I've quite liked TTA, but the delays mean I've forgotten almost everything it's supposedly building to!


The JL does have a JL Dark team filled with magic users that was lead by Wonder Woman, right? Not sure about the team's current status. A Raven should be on that kind of JL team over being just stuck in Titans I think. She should be on both if anything. 




> When was the last time a hero got a cat?


Huntress recently got a cat in Detective Comics, right? Not sure if she still has it. Then Gambit got 3 cats back during his solo book that came out around the same time as Fraction's Hawkeye. Then not long after that they gave Black Widow a cat in her solo book drawn by Phil Noto I think. Fraction's Hawkeye really started the trend of giving heroes pets. That series had so much influence. I think Taylor's use of it in his Nightwing run feels more like the Hawkeye situation because the dog in Hawkeye was also disabled like the one Taylor created.

----------


## Confuzzled

> Huntress recently got a cat in Detective Comics, right? Not sure if she still has it. Then Gambit got 3 cats back during his solo book that came out around the same time as Fraction's Hawkeye. Then not long after that they gave Black Widow a cat in her solo book drawn by Phil Noto I think. Fraction's Hawkeye really started the trend of giving heroes pets. That series had so much influence. I think Taylor's use of it in his Nightwing run feels more like the Hawkeye situation because the dog in Hawkeye was also disabled like the one Taylor created.


+ of course Carol Danvers and her Flerken cat.

----------


## Vordan

Simple story but changing up the format of the art side of the storytelling upped the enjoyment for me by a lot. Need Taylor to stop teasing how Dick is going to shape Gotham and actually have him *do that* going forward. 



> While I'd like Dick to be invited to the JL and occasionally team up with them, the Titans brand is more likely to help Nightwing in outside media adaptations. 
> The Titans are actually doing nicely outside of Comics. Season 3 of Titans, while far from being great, is now the 4th most-watched show on Netflix -
> https://www.tvfandomlounge.com/2021/...world-netflix/
> 
> I hope DC would give Taylor the Titans. I know it's more likely he'll write the JL, but he loves Dick and Wally, and he writes great character moments. He's more suited to write the Titans than the JL.


Titans is a huge brand outside of comics, its just in comics that its been a dumpsterfire for decades. I dont know why they cant get it to stop sucking but they seemingly cant. If someone came along and HiX-Mend the team Id be all over that trust me, I just dont believe it will happen at this point. Of course the quality of show Titans storytelling is up for debate at this point too lol.

----------


## MakeNightwingGreatAgain

> #87 was really cool. I hope to see more of this kind of experimentation. The biggest problem with Bludhaven IMO is that it exists to perpetuate a classic formula. One we see over and over. So things can become stale and less than. But with #87 just by changing how they tell and present its story, they take a rather simple fun story and make it innovative and special. All of a sudden this book is doing something different, cause this kind of storytelling is different. Please, more of this. More of trying a new thing with the old things.


I liked the issue for the art. I think it would have been 100% better without the dialogue tbh the speech bubbles kinda ruined the immersiveness. But i dont think this book is doing anything different. Especially since this type of storytelling has been done before on multiple titles that were better executed. And by storytelling, i mean characterization and plot.

----------


## MakeNightwingGreatAgain

> Simple story but changing up the format of the art side of the storytelling upped the enjoyment for me by a lot. Need Taylor to stop teasing how Dick is going to shape Gotham and actually have him *do that* going forward. 
> 
> Titans is a huge brand outside of comics, it’s just in comics that it’s been a dumpsterfire for decades. I don’t know why they can’t get it to stop sucking but they seemingly can’t. If someone came along and HiX-Men’d the team I’d be all over that trust me, I just don’t believe it will happen at this point. Of course the quality of show Titans storytelling is up for debate at this point too lol.


Titans, the way people want them, are actually not that popular. The popular version of the Titans are the pre-teen kid versions of the classic NTT team. A major draw to the Titans' live action is Kory, Raven and Dick. It dipped in ratings and fan satisfaction with he batfam stuff but i think it has mellowed out since then. Dick Grayson's most popular portrayal as of right now is still his teenage robin self.

----------


## Rac7d*

https://t.co/1luanY21Uw

----------


## Vordan

> Titans, the way people want them, are actually not that popular. The popular version of the Titans are the pre-teen kid versions of the classic NTT team. A major draw to the Titans' live action is Kory, Raven and Dick. It dipped in ratings and fan satisfaction with he batfam stuff but i think it has mellowed out since then. Dick Grayson's most popular portrayal as of right now is still his teenage robin self.


With the Titans show and the GK video game I think you will see the general audience shift towards Nightwing as their favorite “era” for Dick.

----------


## Rac7d*

> When was the last time a hero got a cat?


Spiderman miles morales

----------


## Frontier

> Spiderman miles morales


Ah, the game  :Smile: .

----------


## Lal

Titans is currently one of the most watched shows on Netflix worldwide. People complained a lot about the current season, but overall it seems very successful.

----------


## Frontier

> Titans is currently one of the most watched shows on Netflix worldwide. People complained a lot about the current season, but overall it seems very successful.


Insert "no accounting for taste" comment.

Which, don't get me wrong, I want the show to do well...but the show has a *lot* of problems.

----------


## John Venus

> Titans is currently one of the most watched shows on Netflix worldwide. People complained a lot about the current season, but overall it seems very successful.


Not on it's own merits. The characters are popular (despite DC's efforts to erase them) and people are hungry for stories with them and will even settle for a poorly done show.

----------


## Lal

I agree that the last season had a lot of problems, and having 3 different Robins/ ex-Robins in a Titans show is just weird and unnecessary (unless they are planning to branch to spin-off shows).
But at the same time, people seem to be watching it, so hopefully it would lead to more Titans and Nightwing content.

----------


## Godlike13

I’m not gonna lie, I didn’t love the last season. That studio in general and its formula is, well, it is what it is. But I can grin and bear it as long as it proves the property outside of comics. As long as Titans becomes a property they see can be successful and make them money, they’ll do more stuff with it then. And that’s the win.

----------


## Rac7d*

1F9FF4E8-8F40-46B5-B8D7-2F48A91D934F.jpg

I love this family

----------


## Frontier

> 1F9FF4E8-8F40-46B5-B8D7-2F48A91D934F.jpg
> 
> I love this family


Redondo going to try and keep that Batgirl look relevant  :Stick Out Tongue: .

Happy Holidays  :Smile: .



> I’m not gonna lie, I didn’t love the last season. That studio in general and its formula is, well, it is what it is. But I can grin and bear it as long as it proves the property outside of comics. As long as Titans becomes a property they see can be successful and make them money, they’ll do more stuff with it then. And that’s the win.


And fans will keep hoping the writing improves  :Smile: .

----------


## Grayson - The Dark Heir

> Being invited to the JL table to discuss major DCU events. There is a status that comes with being on the JL in the DCU that Dick doesn't have basically that lowers his ceiling as a character. I feel like it is pretty straightforward.


I do want to comment on this, because this is something that should definitely be a thing by now. I liked the bit in TTA that had Doctor Fate seek out the Titans and Raven specifically to deal with a magical threat, with the intention to have them help the JLD. Even if it's small, stuff like that is what I want to see. Rachel should totally have a consulting role and be an honorary role as a member of the JLD, and the same should go for Dick and a few other Titans at this point with the main JL. I mean, Dick, Donna, Vic, Kory, and Roy have all been pretty important JL members at one point or another (Kory excluded, but even then I think status and capability-wise, she should be included). It's less about the popularity of characters, and more of their in-universe status that I want represented. 

Like the big JL discussion scenes in Action Comics leading up to Clark leaving Earth? It would've been neat to see Dick there. Little stuff like that would be nice, and does more to raise the profile of the Titans as a whole too imo. Like, if after this Justice League Incarnate book is done and the next Multiversal event is ready to go down, it'd be nice to have Dick and maybe others included with the JL when we start getting the larger plans and stuff worked out. It was very reduced, but we got that in Doom Metal. Even just more of that would be nice.

----------


## Rac7d*

> Abnett's Rebirth is a good example. Having Bruce shut down Dick's superhero team to then have the JL absorb their responsibilities is something that wouldn't have happened if Dick was on the same level as them and on the JL. Being invited to the JL table to discuss major DCU events. There is a status that comes with being on the JL in the DCU that Dick doesn't have basically that lowers his ceiling as a character. I feel like it is pretty straightforward. 
> 
> 
> 
> .



That had nothing to do with teams and all to do with the relationship between dick and Bruce. Bruce was wrong to manipulate dick like that. All the other titans  did not agree to the shut down. Bruce knew he only had to convince one, and when the league saw fit brought the team back under their watch.

It was bad writing choice that somewhat justifies Damians rebellious period that arc.

----------


## MakeNightwingGreatAgain

> Im not gonna lie, I didnt love the last season. That studio in general and its formula is, well, it is what it is. But I can grin and bear it as long as it proves the property outside of comics. As long as Titans becomes a property they see can be successful and make them money, theyll do more stuff with it then. And thats the win.


The Titans are VERY popular outside comics and are in fact one of their top selling merchandise. The original teen titans is still known as one of the best cartoons to ever exist. Their tenure in the 80s in the comics was also very well received. Its one of the reasons why the live action pulls in casual fans or just bored streamers. It's a recognizable brand that DC sucks at promoting because they have such a huge boner for Batman that they are willing to trash their other popular properties in order to prop him up. 

One can really see the difference in property that DC actually cares about vs property DC could care less about. Justice League, Bruce Wayne Batman, Barry Allen Flash Clark Kent Superman and Harley Quinn are properties that clearly DC favors. Even though properties like Wally Flash or Teen Titans/Titans is shown to be something that is popular and quite well known, they do come as competition for their other properties and often times the characters involved can't exist without introducing DC fav properties anyhow. Its a mess of a situation that DC cant seem to get themselves out of.




> Not on it's own merits. The characters are popular (despite DC's efforts to erase them) and people are hungry for stories with them and will even settle for a poorly done show.


Yeah. Im thinking this is the reason people just blindly support anything nightwing related. We want more nightwing so we support everything with him in it, even if it's a very poor portrayal that we hate. Ric Grayson was just a repeat of the fan backlash that happened with Devin Grayson. And even that Backlash didn't stop DC from pushing him in mediocre stories. 




> With the Titans show and the GK video game I think you will see the general audience shift towards Nightwing as their favorite era for Dick.


I mean, He was Nightwing in season two of young justice and the time, Young Justice was a top rated children's show. He was also Nightwing in the Arkham Knight game, and that was pretty popular. The Harley Quinn movie had Dick as Nightwing. Dick has been Nightwing in other content that is normally considered "popular." But I still don't think it was enough to push Nightwing as the favorite era for Dick. Like I said, a lot of people still see Dick as robin and batman side character./batman lite. Its not really their fault, but more of the fault of DC/WB pushing the batman narrative with him instead of letting him branch out. Even in the Titans show, his stuff is heavily influenced by Batfam, something the show did not need. It makes Dick look like another version of Batman that we dont need.

----------


## MakeNightwingGreatAgain

> 1F9FF4E8-8F40-46B5-B8D7-2F48A91D934F.jpg
> 
> I love this family


Is this not a Nightwing Solo book anymore? IS the Nightwing team just a bunch of Dick Babs shippers? Seeley didn't even do this with Shawn and Dick, got her pregnant and was ready to drop everything to be with her forever. He was dang near ready to settle down Bea and even got the go ahead from Alfred to do it. Like what is the point of pushing this pairing so hard in this book? Dick Babs haven't even been confirmed to be a couple in the story. And its only been like 6 or 7 issues? not only that but in the grand scheme of things, Dick and Babs havent been together since 2006 (lets be honest with ourselves). 

Yes I am complaining. But this right here is really annoying me lol im sorry

----------


## Iclifton

> Is this not a Nightwing Solo book anymore? IS the Nightwing team just a bunch of Dick Babs shippers? Seeley didn't even do this with Shawn and Dick, got her pregnant and was ready to drop everything to be with her forever. He was dang near ready to settle down Bea and even got the go ahead from Alfred to do it. Like what is the point of pushing this pairing so hard in this book? Dick Babs haven't even been confirmed to be a couple in the story. And its only been like 6 or 7 issues? not only that but in the grand scheme of things, Dick and Babs havent been together since 2006 (lets be honest with ourselves). 
> 
> Yes I am complaining. But this right here is really annoying me lol im sorry


Talk about hyperbole. Lol you can have a side character and it still remain a solo. Helena was a bigger part of Grayson than Barbara is in Nightwing. Did you complain then to?

----------


## Rac7d*

> Is this not a Nightwing Solo book anymore? IS the Nightwing team just a bunch of Dick Babs shippers? Seeley didn't even do this with Shawn and Dick, got her pregnant and was ready to drop everything to be with her forever. He was dang near ready to settle down Bea and even got the go ahead from Alfred to do it. Like what is the point of pushing this pairing so hard in this book? Dick Babs haven't even been confirmed to be a couple in the story. And its only been like 6 or 7 issues? not only that but in the grand scheme of things, Dick and Babs havent been together since 2006 (lets be honest with ourselves). 
> 
> Yes I am complaining. But this right here is really annoying me lol im sorry


 I’m sorry you will be complaining for probably another 30 issues but it is your right

----------


## MakeNightwingGreatAgain

> I’m sorry you will be complaining for probably another 30 issues but it is your right


Ill complain about it every time don't you worry ;D




> Talk about hyperbole. Lol you can have a side character and it still remain a solo. Helena was a bigger part of Grayson than Barbara is in Nightwing. Did you complain then to?


But Helena and Grayson had a solid build up and was respectable. Also, it was pretty clear that Dick was the main solo character in Grayson. Apples and Oranges to compare the two. Especially when Grayson was about Dick's time as a spy for a organization where he had to team up. Nightwing solo is about Dick as a vigilante in bludhaven trying to make it on his own. With the way Nightwing solo is promoted, they are making it seem like its a Nightwing/Batgirl team up and if I remember correctly, Taylor said he was writing it as a Nightwing Batgirl book.

----------


## AmiMizuno

So The Batman has two planned sequels and one seems o might be Dark Victory.  For anyone who doesn't know this was a sequel to Long Halloween where  Dick Grayson appeared. I don't think has of right now we will get Nightwing in DCEU just yet. They might wind up doing it in the The Batman. Because with Keaton in the DCEU Dick would have to be a mid aged man. The director of The Batman did say he didn't want anyone else using Dick. Wait Does anyone know if the Batman 89 is cannon to the movie universe? Because that would be one way to get him in the main universe taking place in the Burton universe 

Even way I hope we see Nightwing.

----------


## Spideyvinnegar

> Is this not a Nightwing Solo book anymore? IS the Nightwing team just a bunch of Dick Babs shippers? Seeley didn't even do this with Shawn and Dick, got her pregnant and was ready to drop everything to be with her forever. He was dang near ready to settle down Bea and even got the go ahead from Alfred to do it. Like what is the point of pushing this pairing so hard in this book?


Are you really comparing the impact of random love interests to Barbara Gordon/Batgirl/Oracle ? 
Taylor has said many times before the book was released batgirl is the co-star of his run so get ready to be seeing her a lot more lmao




> Dick Babs haven't even been confirmed to be a couple in the story. And its only been like 6 or 7 issues?


They kissed twice in this run
They lived together for quite a time before Barbara moved with Cass and Steph
In 'batgirls' Barbara blushes saying shes going to crash with Dick
Other bat-books has also been portraying them living together
I think this is pretty much enough to assume they are in fact at least dating lol




> Dick and Babs havent been together since 2006


Yeah instead they were in that will-they-won't-they kind-of-relationship, constantly flirting and writers always making it obvious they have deep lingering feelings to each other and dropping hints they would eventually get back together again
I mean c'mon it was always obvious it was just a matter of time and a writter with enough freedom coming in and settling these two together again and Taylor just seems to be that writter 




> Yes I am complaining. But this right here is really annoying me lol im sorry


I mean it's fine you're free to complain as much as you want just like we're free to enjoy it  :Wink:

----------


## Drako

> They kissed twice in this run
> They lived together for quite a time before Barbara moved with Cass and Steph
> In 'batgirls' Barbara blushes saying shes going to crash with Dick
> Other bat-books has also been portraying them living together
> I think this is pretty much enough to assume they are in fact at least dating lol


Babs even said that Haley is their dog.
So, yeah, they are a couple, tthere is no denying it.

They even appear togheter in other books now, like Batman and Deathstroke.

----------


## Iclifton

> Ill complain about it every time don't you worry ;D
> 
> 
> 
> But Helena and Grayson had a solid build up and was respectable. Also, it was pretty clear that Dick was the main solo character in Grayson. Apples and Oranges to compare the two. Especially when Grayson was about Dick's time as a spy for a organization where he had to team up. Nightwing solo is about Dick as a vigilante in bludhaven trying to make it on his own. With the way Nightwing solo is promoted, they are making it seem like its a Nightwing/Batgirl team up and if I remember correctly, Taylor said he was writing it as a Nightwing Batgirl book.


There has literally been years of build up. Regardless of what the concept of the book is, Helena played just as much of a role in Grayson as Barbara does in Nightwing. You just have personal bias and distort facts to support your narrative.

----------


## Rakiduam

> Are you really comparing the impact of random love interests to Barbara Gordon/Batgirl/Oracle ? 
> Taylor has said many times before the book was released batgirl is the co-star of his run so get ready to be seeing her a lot more lmao


Well, no random love interests has ever leave him forBatman, his relationship with Babs is speacial that way lots and lots of baggage. And mediocre arcs with no plot. Yeah nothing says A list as needing Batgirl to co-star.

----------


## Godlike13

DC spent decades building Dick and Babs in such a way to be able to easily slot in and out of each other’s stories with little further build up. To the point that it became frustrating. But that’s part of their relationship’s function and design.

----------


## Iclifton

> Well, no random love interests has ever leave him forBatman, his relationship with Babs is speacial that way lots and lots of baggage. And mediocre arcs with no plot. Yeah nothing says A list as needing Batgirl to co-star.


1. Yes, no random love interests have left him for Batman. At least in part because they simply do not show up in outside media at all. 
2. Barbara has only ever left Dick for someone else in on TV show. never canon comics.

Does he need Batgirl? No. Is there a lot of upside to featuring another highly profitable and marketable character that already has a built in history as a side character. Yes.

----------


## JackJustMetMartin

> Is this not a Nightwing Solo book anymore? IS the Nightwing team just a bunch of Dick Babs shippers? Seeley didn't even do this with Shawn and Dick, got her pregnant and was ready to drop everything to be with her forever. He was dang near ready to settle down Bea and even got the go ahead from Alfred to do it. Like what is the point of pushing this pairing so hard in this book? Dick Babs haven't even been confirmed to be a couple in the story. And its only been like 6 or 7 issues? not only that but in the grand scheme of things, Dick and Babs havent been together since 2006 (lets be honest with ourselves). 
> 
> Yes I am complaining. But this right here is really annoying me lol im sorry


I get it, you're frustrated. Dick and Babs are, well a thing now, but that hasn't been conveyed very clearly. The build up felt rushed, but I think this could well be a long term thing.

But isn't this fair? Dick's beginnings was being a recuring side character in Bruce's book, a comic can be about one character while heavily featuring another. It's not like Babs is a bad character, she's been screwed over by the editorial in recent years but in the past she was the connecting tech for the entire DC universe. She has a history with Dick, and hasn't an ongoing of her own. 

I honestly think DC wants Dick and Babs to be the MJ and Peter of DC. That iconic couple. And while I think both character could be taken in more interesting directions, they do work.

I don't think the shipping will stop anytime soon, so I'd try to accept it if I were you. If you can't, sorry bro but there's not much to be done. Sales are up, and DC really only care about dollar bills.

----------


## Restingvoice

Nightwing is one of Best Comics 2021 by Entertainment Weekly and Screenrant (there might be more but  maybe it's just comics people retweeting it over and over on my feed so it looks like there's more)

The will they and won't they tease for Dick Babs have happened for at least 10 years now, to the point where they actually sleep together in a honeymoon suite but not have sex. So if the team wants to ejaculate it after only 6-7 issues I'm fine with it.

----------


## AmiMizuno

A robin movie is in development. Let's hope it's Dick Grayson.This does make me wonder. How old do you guys think Dick should be? Rumor has it, will be Dark victory 
https://www.giantfreakinrobot.com/en...bin-movie.html

----------


## JackJustMetMartin

> A robin movie is in development. Let's hope it's Dick Grayson.This does make me wonder. How old do you guys think Dick should be? Rumor has it, will be Dark victory 
> https://www.giantfreakinrobot.com/en...bin-movie.html


I'd go for a mid teens Dick. Believable when actions sequences are needed and yet still quite young.

----------


## Drako

> A robin movie is in development. Let's hope it's Dick Grayson.This does make me wonder. How old do you guys think Dick should be? Rumor has it, will be Dark victory 
> https://www.giantfreakinrobot.com/en...bin-movie.html


This site has a section showing that their scoops are real, but that can be easily manipulated, so i still take as just a rumor with no basis.

But it makes sense for them to explore Robin and Batgirl since they are moving on with Michael Keaton as an Old Batman.
Hopefully is Dick Grayson, but i have no faith on Warner Bros.




> I'd go for a mid teens Dick. Believable when actions sequences are needed and yet still quite young.


They would probably make him the same age as Leslie Grace's Batgirl.

----------


## AmiMizuno

So far the site did say it's animated Robin. But who knows WB could easily do a animated and live action version. There is only one question now. If it is animated movie first what comic book would they do. Maybe year one?

----------


## Grayson - The Dark Heir

It specifically says animated in that article, so even if it was to believed, it has nothing to do with the live-action movies. 

Outside of casting, I don't think WB really has a track record of making good decisions when it comes to DC content, so I'm not going to put much stock into that. Even if it happens, there's no telling it'll even be about Dick in the first place.

----------


## AmiMizuno

> This site has a section showing that their scoops are real, but that can be easily manipulated, so i still take as just a rumor with no basis.
> 
> But it makes sense for them to explore Robin and Batgirl since they are moving on with Michael Keaton as an Old Batman.
> Hopefully is Dick Grayson, but i have no faith on Warner Bros.
> 
> 
> 
> They would probably make him the same age as Leslie Grace's Batgirl.


 to show him being the same age but him has a teen first before being the same age as Grace? We see him developed in the first but after that he is the same age and it ends with him on his journey to Nightwing. So far this is only animated but we can also hope that sooner down the line it will be live action too




> It specifically says animated in that article, so even if it was to believed, it has nothing to do with the live-action movies. 
> 
> Outside of casting, I don't think WB really has a track record of making good decisions when it comes to DC content, so I'm not going to put much stock into that. Even if it happens, there's no telling it'll even be about Dick in the first place.


Dc animated stuff is generally better. I mean this is true. But with how they did reboot the animated universe it would make sense to have Dick appear.

----------


## Drako

Yeah, it's animated. My bad.
I don't really care for this animated movies, but if it's him i would watch it.

----------


## AmiMizuno

> Yeah, it's animated. My bad.
> I don't really care for this animated movies, but if it's him i would watch it.


It might be year one Dick Grayson or it could be Dark Victory if the live action won't do it. If we do get a live action Dick Grayson. Who would you want to play him?

----------


## Spideyvinnegar

> A robin movie is in development. Let's hope it's Dick Grayson.This does make me wonder. How old do you guys think Dick should be? Rumor has it, will be Dark victory 
> https://www.giantfreakinrobot.com/en...bin-movie.html


Most likely it's going to be Damian but I do hope Nightwing makes an appearence and maybe even gets a relevant role

----------


## Veni

Nightwing and Haley by Romy Jones 
romyjonesdraws_20211224_191123_0.jpg

----------


## AmiMizuno

> Most likely it's going to be Damian but I do hope Nightwing makes an appearence and maybe even gets a relevant role


I think it might depend if it is in the same universe or you could be right since they are doing Supersons. What would you want Dick to have? I'm curious who is your favorite VA for Dick?

----------


## Badou

If it is animated then I'd assume that the Robin in it will probably be Damian.

----------


## AmiMizuno

> If it is animated then I'd assume that the Robin in it will probably be Damian.


Why Damian? It will does depend if it's in the new universe or standalone. They want to intro Dick in the new animated universe. but if it's a standalone Damian does have a few choices

----------


## Pohzee

I mean c'mon the director of the Long Halloween movies said that they wanted to do Dark Victory. This is probably just Dark Victory.

----------


## Rac7d*

https://comicbook.com/comics/news/20...s-comic-books/

Nominated for best writer
Best artist and best ongoing

----------


## Rakiduam

> 1. Yes, no random love interests have left him for Batman. At least in part because they simply do not show up in outside media at all. 
> 2. Barbara has only ever left Dick for someone else in on TV show. never canon comics.
> 
> Does he need Batgirl? No. Is there a lot of upside to featuring another highly profitable and marketable character that already has a built in history as a side character. Yes.


OK but nothing of that is a good thing, or a good relationship, or a fun relationship. Or good for either character be tied to each other, that's why they have been sutck for decades, and they  are going to stay stuck for as long as this run last. I bet  Babs fans must love have her as a SIDE character for 10 more years.


Screen Rant also has Teen Titans Academy  on it's best list....cool.

----------


## dietrich

> https://comicbook.com/comics/news/20...s-comic-books/
> 
> Nominated for best writer
> Best artist and best ongoing


Best artist is very well deserved and I couldn't agree more.

----------


## Claude

The other good thing about Barbara as a constant presence is that her "thing" is being over comms, so Dick can talk to her rather than narrate his actions in inner monologue. And Dick is always more fun and interesting when he has someone to talk to.

Also, merry Christmas Dick!Heads!

----------


## John Venus

> A robin movie is in development. Let's hope it's Dick Grayson.This does make me wonder. How old do you guys think Dick should be? Rumor has it, will be Dark victory 
> https://www.giantfreakinrobot.com/en...bin-movie.html


That is not a reliable site.

----------


## Frontier

> The other good thing about Barbara as a constant presence is that her "thing" is being over comms, so Dick can talk to her rather than narrate his actions in inner monologue. And Dick is always more fun and interesting when he has someone to talk to.
> 
> Also, merry Christmas Dick!Heads!


Maybe it's the Dixon and Seeley fan in me but I like Dick's inner monologues...

----------


## Frontier

Mark Waid held an interview on Word Ballon for his upcoming _Batman/Superman: World's Finest_ book and says Dick as Robin will be almost the third main cast member, being used for comedy relief.

----------


## Grayson - The Dark Heir

> Mark Waid held an interview on Word Ballon for his upcoming _Batman/Superman: World's Finest_ book and says Dick as Robin will be almost the third main cast member,...


Let's go!!



> ...being used for comedy relief.


Oh... I guess that's technically what Robin is around for, more levity and excitement than just comedy relief but it's close enough. I'm looking forward to seeing how it's done, and I mean, I can't hate on Dan Mora's Robin especially with that new design lol.

----------


## Vordan

> Let's go!!
> 
> Oh... I guess that's technically what Robin is around for, more levity and excitement than just comedy relief but it's close enough. I'm looking forward to seeing how it's done, and I mean, I can't hate on Dan Mora's Robin especially with that new design lol.


Just for clarity Waid meant it in terms of “Robin is the one who tells jokes because Batman never quips and Superman’s sense of humor is more deadpan and subdued”. So you’ll get Dick as the jokester of the trio.

----------


## Grayson - The Dark Heir

> Just for clarity Waid meant it in terms of “Robin is the one who tells jokes because Batman never quips and Superman’s sense of humor is more deadpan and subdued”. So you’ll get Dick as the jokester of the trio.


You're right, I was actually coming back to edit my post because I got to that part of the podcast just now lol. 

I'm here for it! Waid says this is a 16-17 year old Dick, so he's not just the excited kid running around which is nice. Waid also says Dick will be in every issue so that's good. Last thing, Waid says he's not going for nostalgia, but more using the classic versions to tell contemporary stories which is great!

----------


## Frontier

Anyone hankering for classic Batman and Robin and more Dick have it good now  :Smile: .

----------


## WonderNight

Would love to see dicks reaction to seeing and meeting wonder woman for the first time.

----------


## Iclifton

> You're right, I was actually coming back to edit my post because I got to that part of the podcast just now lol. 
> 
> I'm here for it! Waid says this is a 16-17 year old Dick, so he's not just the excited kid running around which is nice. Waid also says Dick will be in every issue so that's good. Last thing, Waid says he's not going for nostalgia, but more using the classic versions to tell contemporary stories which is great!


This sounds perfect. Exactly what I hoped for. So excited for this.

----------


## JackJustMetMartin

> Anyone hankering for classic Batman and Robin and more Dick have it good now .


I've wanted this for so long. Dick's time as Robin retold.

----------


## Avi

> Mark Waid held an interview on Word Ballon for his upcoming _Batman/Superman: World's Finest_ book and says Dick as Robin will be almost the third main cast member, being used for comedy relief.





> Just for clarity Waid meant it in terms of Robin is the one who tells jokes because Batman never quips and Supermans sense of humor is more deadpan and subdued. So youll get Dick as the jokester of the trio.





> You're right, I was actually coming back to edit my post because I got to that part of the podcast just now lol. 
> 
> I'm here for it! Waid says this is a 16-17 year old Dick, so he's not just the excited kid running around which is nice. Waid also says Dick will be in every issue so that's good. Last thing, Waid says he's not going for nostalgia, but more using the classic versions to tell contemporary stories which is great!


That sounds very good. Dick looked older drawn by Dan Mora, but having confirmation is always better. 

It's nice that the Robin Dick stories of this and next year have so much range in terms of his age and how his character is being depicted.

----------


## Frontier

> That sounds very good. Dick looked older drawn by Dan Mora, but having confirmation is always better. 
> 
> It's nice that the Robin Dick stories of this and next year have so much range in terms of his age and how his character is being depicted.


The only thing they have in common? Pants  :Wink: .

----------


## Rac7d*

65002E9C-B057-453D-8175-A3C6BC4DB168.jpg

I love to see it

----------


## Lady Nightwing

> 65002E9C-B057-453D-8175-A3C6BC4DB168.jpg
> 
> I love to see it


His run hasn't been my exact cup of tea but there's no denying he's done a fabulous job of boosting our boys profile

----------


## Badou

You can only hope that maybe the book will turn into a property creators want to write over looking at it as a stepping stone where DC would be willing to invest more talent on it.

----------


## AmiMizuno

I'm curious what do you guys think about what is said to be the originally idea. So Tim was suppose to replacement Dick as Nightwing for a bit. The more I think about it. What if it was Tim looking for a way to fix Dick. That the Titans and all the other people who would be able to have aren't there. Tim finds about the crystal. Or what would you guys have wanted?

----------


## JackJustMetMartin

> I'm curious what do you guys think about what is said to be the originally idea. So Tim was suppose to replacement Dick as Nightwing for a bit. The more I think about it. What if it was Tim looking for a way to fix Dick. That the Titans and all the other people who would be able to have aren't there. Tim finds about the crystal. Or what would you guys have wanted?


I think it would have been a more interesting story than the one we got. Not sure if I like Tim as Nightwing though. Any Robin becoming Nightwing after Dick just feels off to me, taking both of Dick's most iconic identities would just read as a form of plagiarism of Dick's hero's journey. Especially since Dick, Jason, Tim and Damian are usually drawn very similar.

I would have liked to see Tim in Blüdhaven during the whole Ric debacle, just not as Nightwing.

----------


## Grayson - The Dark Heir

> I'm curious what do you guys think about what is said to be the originally idea. So Tim was suppose to replacement Dick as Nightwing for a bit. The more I think about it. What if it was Tim looking for a way to fix Dick. That the Titans and all the other people who would be able to have aren't there. Tim finds about the crystal. Or what would you guys have wanted?


Well the original plan was for Zatanna to reverse the damage with magic, although that was King assuming DC editorial wouldn't have wanted to continue with the aftermath of Dick being shot in the head. Clearly, he didn't know who he was dealing with lol. 

The Tim thing was the idea put forward by King after it was decided that they wouldn't reverse the gun shot. It's just a really weird idea because Tim as Robin is completely capable of doing the things Dick would have done as Nightwing. At least when Dick steps up to be Batman, we're supposed to believe Batman is this massive influence on Gotham and a necessity for the DCU as a whole, aside from the out-of-universe fact that Batman is DC's biggest character. If Tim became Nightwing... he'd just be dealing with Bludhaven? That's not at all a big deal for him, unless we're supposed to think Tim would have taken over Dick's Titans team, but even then, Tim has led before so... what is it that's new for him? The biggest part of the direction was that Tim would be Dick's primary caretaker, but why does that mean he would be Nightwing in the first place? 

I guess Tim being relegated to Bludhaven while Dick, after returning to the Nightwing role, would be allowed to go international or something would've been nice though lmao. 




> I think it would have been a more interesting story than the one we got. Not sure if I like Tim as Nightwing though. Any Robin becoming Nightwing after Dick just feels off to me, taking both of Dick's most iconic identities would just read as a form of plagiarism of Dick's hero's journey. Especially since Dick, Jason, Tim and Damian are usually drawn very similar.
> 
> I would have liked to see Tim in Blüdhaven during the whole Ric debacle, just not as Nightwing.


Just wanted to say, between Tim and Damian starting up and leading the Teen Titans at various points already solidified them both as following the same path as Dick anyways lol. Becoming Nightwing is the end point that neither of them have reached yet, when you really think about it.

----------


## AmiMizuno

Okay the magic crystal makes more sense now. Overall I found that idea of Tim being Nightwing way more interesting than what they did. I wonder do we know anything about how the Zatanna healing him was to go?

----------


## Vordan

> You can only hope that maybe the book will turn into a property creators want to write over looking at it as a stepping stone where DC would be willing to invest more talent on it.


Creators have always wanted to write Nightwing. It’s DC who refused to “waste” big names on Dick and instead insisted on putting them on Batman. Waid’s Daredevil run started as a pitch for Nightwing but DC didn’t want to put a “big name” like Waid on a book like Nightwing.

----------


## batnbreakfast

Random Idea: Watching Hawkeye on D+... is that the way to do Batman and Robin?

----------


## dietrich

Looking forward to more modern Dick as Robin stories. As much as I love Dick Grayson, his Robin tenure is something I've struggled to get into because they feel dated. I think for myself and other newer fans of comics it'd help us to value Dick as Robin if we had stories of him in the role that we could appreciate without the cheesiness of the golden/silver age vibe.

----------


## Lal

Nightwing #87 was the 2nd best selling comic on ComiXology this week - https://www.comixology.com/comics-best-sellers

While we don't have the actual overall sales data, it's nice to see that at least online the book is doing great.

----------


## Rac7d*

> You can only hope that maybe the book will turn into a property creators want to write over looking at it as a stepping stone where DC would be willing to invest more talent on it.


i hope for no such thing

----------


## Badou

> i hope for no such thing


So you want the book to be used as a stepping stone where DC doesn't invest a lot of resources in?

----------


## MakeNightwingGreatAgain

> So you want the book to be used as a stepping stone where DC doesn't invest a lot of resources in?


I mean this is pretty much exactly what Nightwing solo has been since Dixon. Change and Nightwing are apparently like oil and water.

----------


## MakeNightwingGreatAgain

> I think it would have been a more interesting story than the one we got. Not sure if I like Tim as Nightwing though. Any Robin becoming Nightwing after Dick just feels off to me, taking both of Dick's most iconic identities would just read as a form of plagiarism of Dick's hero's journey. Especially since Dick, Jason, Tim and Damian are usually drawn very similar.
> 
> I would have liked to see Tim in Blüdhaven during the whole Ric debacle, just not as Nightwing.


In injustice, Dick gives Damian the Nightwing mantle and Damian also has a Nightwing skin in the games! So the nighrwing mantle has unfortunately already been passed down in a way. Dick also originally had the Red Robin mantle that was also given to Tim.

----------


## MakeNightwingGreatAgain

> Creators have always wanted to write Nightwing. Its DC who refused to waste big names on Dick and instead insisted on putting them on Batman. Waids Daredevil run started as a pitch for Nightwing but DC didnt want to put a big name like Waid on a book like Nightwing.


The tides have def turned since it came out that a bunch of writers have actually been offered Nightwing but they have turned it down! DC really REALLY dropped the ball on this character. I cant understand why they let him fall so badly. If the problem is not trying to have him out-do Bruce, why not take him out of batfam and let him be on his own with his own niche? It seems DC just wants to use Dick to prop up batfam and thats it. Because any time someone wants to do the opposite, they throw in every possible wrench to stop it from happening. 

DC has already pretty much given most of Dicks best traits, villains and concepts to other batfam characters. At this point, just set him free and let a writer like Waid completely revamp the character with new mythos and direction! There are plenty of things for Nightwing to do that dont Involve him being associated with Batman. There is spyral, there is moving far away from where Gotham is and setting up shoppe in a new city with a new side cast. There is globe trotting Dick. But DC seems to think there are only two directions for Dick to take: Death or stale/datedstatus quo from late 90s.

----------


## dietrich

> The tides have def turned since it came out that a bunch of writers have actually been offered Nightwing but they have turned it down! DC really REALLY dropped the ball on this character. I can’t understand why they let him fall so badly. If the problem is not trying to have him out-do Bruce, why not take him out of batfam and let him be on his own with his own niche? It seems DC just wants to use Dick to prop up batfam and that’s it. Because any time someone wants to do the opposite, they throw in every possible wrench to stop it from happening. 
> 
> DC has already pretty much given most of Dick’s best traits, villains and concepts to other batfam characters. At this point, just set him free and let a writer like Waid completely revamp the character with new mythos and direction! There are plenty of things for Nightwing to do that don’t Involve him being associated with Batman. There is spyral, there is moving far away from where Gotham is and setting up shoppe in a new city with a new side cast. There is globe trotting Dick. But DC seems to think there are only two directions for Dick to take: Death or stale/datedstatus quo from late 90s.


It's long overdue but Dc seems to be finally putting some resources into dick grayson's character.

last year was easily the year of Nightwing with how much was invested in promoting him. He is finally beginning to feel like a central figure within the DcU.

he ended the year on a high and is heading into 2022 with even brighter prospects [2 new title's and a possibly animated movie]

----------


## Lal

> The tides have def turned since it came out that a bunch of writers have actually been offered Nightwing but they have turned it down! DC really REALLY dropped the ball on this character. I can’t understand why they let him fall so badly. If the problem is not trying to have him out-do Bruce, why not take him out of batfam and let him be on his own with his own niche? It seems DC just wants to use Dick to prop up batfam and that’s it. Because any time someone wants to do the opposite, they throw in every possible wrench to stop it from happening. 
> 
> DC has already pretty much given most of Dick’s best traits, villains and concepts to other batfam characters. At this point, just set him free and let a writer like Waid completely revamp the character with new mythos and direction! There are plenty of things for Nightwing to do that don’t Involve him being associated with Batman. There is spyral, there is moving far away from where Gotham is and setting up shoppe in a new city with a new side cast. There is globe trotting Dick. But DC seems to think there are only two directions for Dick to take: Death or stale/datedstatus quo from late 90s.


There's no dispute that DC did a lot of mistakes with Dick, especially during the Ric Grayson arc (but not only then) and I get why some writers didn't want to write him.
But overall it seems like a lot has changed for him this year.
His series is doing great, his mini as Robin is also doing nicely, he'll also feature as Robin next year in World's finest. 

Dick is also going to be involved in two upcoming events - Shadows of the Bat and War on Earth 3.
In 2022 we'll finally get his arc in YJ, and Gotham knights will release.

Now we just need the disaster that is TTA to either end or change direction and writer ASAP.

----------


## Konja7

> The tides have def turned since it came out that a bunch of writers have actually been offered Nightwing but they have turned it down! DC really REALLY dropped the ball on this character. I can’t understand why they let him fall so badly. If the problem is not trying to have him out-do Bruce, why not take him out of batfam and let him be on his own with his own niche? It seems DC just wants to use Dick to prop up batfam and that’s it. Because any time someone wants to do the opposite, they throw in every possible wrench to stop it from happening. 
> 
> DC has already pretty much given most of Dick’s best traits, villains and concepts to other batfam characters. At this point, just set him free and let a writer like Waid completely revamp the character with new mythos and direction! There are plenty of things for Nightwing to do that don’t Involve him being associated with Batman. There is spyral, there is moving far away from where Gotham is and setting up shoppe in a new city with a new side cast. There is globe trotting Dick. But DC seems to think there are only two directions for Dick to take: Death or stale/datedstatus quo from late 90s.


Honestly, I don't know why people think a globe trotting spy is a niche for Dick. It was good for Grayson, but it's hardly an extremely popular aspect of Dick.

Unfortunately, I think the most popular aspects of Dick are associated with Batman (or Teen Titans). That's why DC mantains Dick near Gotham and the Batfamily.

----------


## Restingvoice

LATE! If Dick should meet with Owlman of Earth-3 again it should be the stalker uncle but this one's not him. The moment's gone.

----------


## WonderNight

> Honestly, I don't know why people think a globe trotting spy is a niche for Dick. It was good for Grayson, but it's hardly an extremely popular aspect of Dick.
> 
> Unfortunately, I think the most popular aspects of Dick are associated with Batman (or Teen Titans). That's why DC mantains Dick near Gotham and the Batfamily.


A globetrotting nightwing is basically the YJ version of nightwing, which my be the most popular and well known version of him. I  just feel nightwing needs something at his core concept that differs form Batman (both of them) other than one is happy and jokes.

----------


## WonderNight

> LATE! If Dick should meet with Owlman of Earth-3 again it should be the stalker uncle but this one's not him. The moment's gone.


It would be cool if dicks earth 3 counterpart was a talon ric grayson.

----------


## Grayson - The Dark Heir

Seeley said it best (using Raptor as his mouthpiece), Nightwing is a brand extension of Batman. That was true in 2016, it's true now as we enter 2022, and it'll probably be true years from now. That may not be what everyone wants (I mean, I definitely don't lol), but it is what it is. 




> LATE! If Dick should meet with Owlman of Earth-3 again it should be the stalker uncle but this one's not him. The moment's gone.


Meh, that Owlman is the one that punked New 52 Nightwing lol. The first time Dick fought an Owlman, he was Batman, leading the JLA, and eventually beat the CSA with his team thanks to his plan. 

Of course, characters are supposed to remember everything ever according to Infinite Frontier, so both previous encounters could be something Dick remembers which would be interesting to see. It seems that aspect has been dropped by DC as a whole though, although it would be funny for Dick to recognize the large age gap between him and Babs that used to exist but definitely doesn't now. We'll see what happens.

----------


## MakeNightwingGreatAgain

> Random Idea: Watching Hawkeye on D+... is that the way to do Batman and Robin?


TBH no. The tv show is adapting Fraction Hawkeye which is too similar to how Nightwing solo currently is. I think having a Batman and Robin tv show that is heavily inspired by the Hawkeye one would raise some eyebrows. I would love a Batman and Robin show, but I think I would prefer it to be animated. Start off with Dick as robin and then when the season ends, we can spin off with Nightwing animated series.




> There's no dispute that DC did a lot of mistakes with Dick, especially during the Ric Grayson arc (but not only then) and I get why some writers didn't want to write him.
> But overall it seems like a lot has changed for him this year.
> His series is doing great, his mini as Robin is also doing nicely, he'll also feature as Robin next year in World's finest. 
> 
> Dick is also going to be involved in two upcoming events - Shadows of the Bat and War on Earth 3.
> In 2022 we'll finally get his arc in YJ, and Gotham knights will release.
> 
> Now we just need the disaster that is TTA to either end or change direction and writer ASAP.


I don't think Dick is doing anymore or less than what he normally does. He is always in a ton of bat related events and cross overs. He is a main character in YJ and arguably the fan favorite. Gotham Knights, he is also sharing the role of the main character. And once again, WB ain't nothing for how they described Dick vs everyone else when promo'ing for Gotham Knights. For some reason Dick's only redeeming qualities as a vigilante is the fact that he is a charismatic leader who is the oldest/wise and a master acrobat. Meanwhile, Babs is a super tech genius and master martial artist. Tim is a gadgetry wizard and master of psycho-analysis and manipulation. Jason is a peak human being who recovering from his old ways and is proficient in his use of weaponry. 

BUT, I will say, DC seems to be trying extra hard to erase Ric Grayson from memory? If only they had tried this hard to erase Devin Grayson, we might have actually had a good status quo for him. My gripe with it is that they still won't properly portray him as Nightwing. They love having him as robin though. Most of his best portrayals are as Robin. Even in Young Justice, Season 1 reigns supreme. They give all the good stuff to Dick as Robin and then when he becomes Nightwing all a sudden is like DC is allergic to him. 

Re-exploring Dick's time as Robin in the comics is probably the best Dick Grayson content that DC has put out with him in years. But I wish they would spend more time giving the actual Nightwing part of him some of that same love/attention. 

Speaking of Young Justice, I hate how Dick went from being a really well rounded and personable character with aspirations. He had an idea of who he wanted to be and wanted to build a path towards it. But starting mid-season 2, it seems Dick turned into the one thing he said he never wanted to be. Since then, Dick hasn't been portrayed as the best in Young Justice, if at all. Really starting to get tired of the character nerfing that seems to happen to him. I pray the rumors of him sharing an arc with another character are not true, because I really want to see Dick react to Jason and do some reflection on the person he has become. I just also hope it doenst turn into a Dick blame fest that normally happens in the comics. Dick has lost three people who he was close with, Wally, Jason and now Connor. I want to see him explore his mental health and finally go on that path he set out to go on from season 1. No batfam, no other Young Justice characters. Just Dick, Dinah and Jason. The fewer people in his arc for me would be the better. Otherwise, the writers just make him look like a hypocrite and also dropped the ball on a really great character arc that started in season 1. Fingers crossed that Nightwing's arc in young justie actually does his character some good service. He has also been seen with Black Lightening and Superman here and there too, so there is also that.




> Seeley said it best (using Raptor as his mouthpiece), Nightwing is a brand extension of Batman. That was true in 2016, it's true now as we enter 2022, and it'll probably be true years from now. That may not be what everyone wants (I mean, I definitely don't lol), but it is what it is. 
> 
> 
> 
> Meh, that Owlman is the one that punked New 52 Nightwing lol. The first time Dick fought an Owlman, he was Batman, leading the JLA, and eventually beat the CSA with his team thanks to his plan. 
> 
> Of course, characters are supposed to remember everything ever according to Infinite Frontier, so both previous encounters could be something Dick remembers which would be interesting to see. It seems that aspect has been dropped by DC as a whole though, although it would be funny for Dick to recognize the large age gap between him and Babs that used to exist but definitely doesn't now. We'll see what happens.


And I remember everyone hopping on Seeley for saying that. Because they were like "oh, nooo, Dick is his own thing, xyz, he doesn't need Batman. And here we are almost 6 years later, and Dick is still doing what he always does. Ill admit, I don't think Seeley is some brilliant writer for Nightwing, but I do think he has said some hard truths about Nightwing that people for some reason love to attack him over despite the fact that he isn't the only one saying it. He tried to take Dick in a different direction, and promptly got harassed over it. I don't blame him for being cynical about Nightwing and his fandom.

Never forgive the new editorial for ruining the Grayson run >:

----------


## MakeNightwingGreatAgain

> Honestly, I don't know why people think a globe trotting spy is a niche for Dick. It was good for Grayson, but it's hardly an extremely popular aspect of Dick.
> 
> Unfortunately, I think the most popular aspects of Dick are associated with Batman (or Teen Titans). That's why DC mantains Dick near Gotham and the Batfamily.


Its an un-explored concept in the DC Universe and it sets Dick apart from Batman. He gets to use what he learned from Batman and then use what he learned from being part of the Titans and apply that to being a spy vigilante. It makes for some good character growth and mythos. Its something that Dick can literally call his own as he would be the only Batfam member to be one and if he joined the Justice League, he can be distinctively different from Batman in terms of what he can bring to the table.

I Dont think it's an unpopular approach since Grayson is arguably one of the best received Nightwing runs. However, I think it's the fact that his fandom also has a sizeable amount of people who are either team batfam or team titans and never want him to leave that zone.

----------


## Pohzee

I hadn't heard any speculation about Dick sharing an arc in YJ, but I'd actually like that. I'm worried that that arc will be all Batfamily centric but what I loved about the YJ universe was that Dick got to interact with other, bigger heroes in new and interesting ways. I don't want to see him, Tim, Steph, and Kate meeting Jason Todd. Yawn.

----------


## MakeNightwingGreatAgain

> I hadn't heard any speculation about Dick sharing an arc in YJ, but I'd actually like that. I'm worried that that arc will be all Batfamily centric but what I loved about the YJ universe was that Dick got to interact with other, bigger heroes in new and interesting ways. I don't want to see him, Tim, Steph, and Kate meeting Jason Todd. Yawn.


hmm, well they did that in season 3 which is why we are the mess we are in the first place lol I am hoping his arc is not Batfam focused and just has Jason. There is literally nothing to bring into Dick's season 4 arc from season 3 other than Jason lol dassit. Its bad enough we somehow shoehorned Babs and a poorly retconned killing joke scenario into Artemis's arc.

----------


## Rac7d*

> hmm, well they did that in season 3 which is why we are the mess we are in the first place lol I am hoping his arc is not Batfam focused and just has Jason. There is literally nothing to bring into Dick's season 4 arc from season 3 other than Jason lol dassit. Its bad enough we somehow shoehorned Babs and a poorly retconned killing joke scenario into Artemis's arc.


You want a Batman arc without the Batman ??????
Watch it have nothing to do with Jason but just on saving Connor so he is not another Wally

----------


## Grayson - The Dark Heir

> BUT, I will say, DC seems to be trying extra hard to erase Ric Grayson from memory? If only they had tried this hard to erase Devin Grayson, we might have actually had a good status quo for him.


Just a quick thought, but are they? It's a little sad to think about, but with the Infinite Frontier reboot, Taylor brought back a version of Dixon's classic Bludhaven and Dick's history with it, right? So far, the only non-Dixon Bludhaven event mentioned has been the Ric Grayson era. Nothing from Rebirth, not the Untouchable story either, and as might be expected, nothing from Percy's run either. 

Like, to put it into perspective, the big reason Tim and Babs were made to be relevant to Taylor's first arc is because Dick is said to still be recovering from the injury that made him an amnesiac in the first place. Even when Dick shows off some cool feats near the end of the arc, the context is that even if Dick is capable of great things, he shouldn't be risking things because of his injury (and he still does because of course he does, he's Dick Grayson). This run may be primarily built on "classic" Bludhaven, but Dick himself is still on a journey to recover from the inciting incident of the Ric era. I don't think DC has done much of anything to make us forget it happened, more like Taylor is moving to make it feel worthwhile in the long run... which isn't the worst thing ever (I've said it before, it's a very effective way of nerfing Dick whenever the plot needs to), but it's not something I'm happy about lol.

----------


## Godlike13

They mentioned and reference Ric to reinforce that this is not that. Making it clear that this is not a continuation of Ric, but the opposite. Bringing back all the things Ric tried to do away with. They aren’t forgetting Ric, but they are rejecting it. Openly.

----------


## HsssH

Ric was also referenced in Seeley's King Shark.

Either way I don't really see a difference between open rejection and "hidden" rejection? I know that I'd like the story more if instead of Ric rejections we got some stuff from Grayson or Rebirth Nightwing.

----------


## Godlike13

It’s a pander of sorts, and a way of reassuring their readership. This is directly coming off of Ric remember. One of its hurdles was having try to get the readers that left because of Ric back. So openly rejecting Ric helps serve that purpose. It’s them saying we know you guys didn’t like that, but this ain’t that. That sucked. So be assured we aren’t doing that here.

----------


## Lal

Look like Comichorn released the October sales chart (just ranking)
https://www.comichron.com/monthlycom...1/2021-10.html

Nightwing 85 sold well, but we already knew that. Robin as well.
Franchises like Aquaman are ranked incredibly low. It seems like Jackson Aquaman isn't well accepted, to put it mildly.

----------


## Rac7d*

> Look like Comichorn released the October sales chart (just ranking)
> https://www.comichron.com/monthlycom...1/2021-10.html
> 
> Nightwing 85 sold well, but we already knew that. Robin as well.
> Franchises like Aquaman are ranked incredibly low. It seems like Jackson Aquaman isn't well accepted, to put it mildly.


Aquaman doesn’t have to do well he just needs to be their. Dc right now has more books led by people of color and lgbt then ever in their entire history currently.

----------


## Lal

> Aquaman doesn’t have to do well he just needs to be their. Dc right now has more books led by people of color and lgbt then ever in their entire history currently.


If it's a book selling 15k (maybe even less. It's ranked lower than crush & lono) by its 2nd issue, this book isn't sustainable. This is a mini, so it's not a big deal, but I don't think DC would publish a book long term if it's selling so low.

----------


## Grayson - The Dark Heir

> If it's a book selling 15k (maybe even less. It's ranked lower than crush & lono) by its 2nd issue, this book isn't sustainable. This is a mini, so it's not a big deal, but I don't think DC would publish a book long term if it's selling so low.


Im not sure what youre getting at here? The Direct Market is dying, its best used to measure how many relics out there are still buying books. Wait for trade sales from book stores. 

We have more than just this one metric to tell Nightwing is currently selling well, for example.

----------


## Lal

> I’m not sure what you’re getting at here? The Direct Market is dying, it’s best used to measure how many relics out there are still buying books. Wait for trade sales from book stores. 
> 
> We have more than just this one metric to tell Nightwing is currently selling well, for example.


True. Trade sales could be very different. 
But Nightwing, for example, sold nicely monthly, had good online sales, so it wasn't very surprising that his trade is also selling well on Amazon. I expect to see a similar pattern for Robin.

It's entirely possible that Jackson would sell wonderfully once his trade is released, but his sales both online and in physical copies are currently very low. 
I'm not wondering what is the correlation between monthly and trade sales.

Anyway, it's nice that Nightwing and Robin are doing well. Surprising that Titans united is ranked so low. It's considerably better than TTA.

----------


## Rac7d*

> If it's a book selling 15k (maybe even less. It's ranked lower than crush & lono) by its 2nd issue, this book isn't sustainable. This is a mini, so it's not a big deal, but I don't think DC would publish a book long term if it's selling so low.


Books have survived selling less
Notably catwoman and redhood

DC has plans for Jackson they are not gonna stop pushing him.

----------


## WonderNight

> Books have survived selling less
> Notably catwoman and redhood
> 
> DC has plans for Jackson they are not gonna stop pushing him.


What plans do you think they have for him?

----------


## Frontier

> I hadn't heard any speculation about Dick sharing an arc in YJ, but I'd actually like that. I'm worried that that arc will be all Batfamily centric but what I loved about the YJ universe was that Dick got to interact with other, bigger heroes in new and interesting ways. I don't want to see him, Tim, Steph, and Kate meeting Jason Todd. Yawn.


I mean, if Dick's arc doesn't give Tim any lines, who else's will? Or Jason flashbacks to explain his circumstances. 

Frankly they're going to look stupid the more they end up on Infinity Island and don't realize that's Jason up until they finally reveal it to them. Not that I put it pass the show to have it be yet another off-screen moment. Or maybe they'd put it in a slideshow.

----------


## Godlike13

> What plans do you think they have for him?


Most likely in other media.

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## Restingvoice

> And I remember everyone hopping on Seeley for saying that. Because they were like "oh, nooo, Dick is his own thing, xyz, he doesn't need Batman. And here we are almost 6 years later, and Dick is still doing what he always does. Ill admit, I don't think Seeley is some brilliant writer for Nightwing, but I do think he has said some hard truths about Nightwing that people for some reason love to attack him over despite the fact that he isn't the only one saying it. He tried to take Dick in a different direction, and promptly got harassed over it. I don't blame him for being cynical about Nightwing and his fandom.


There's this thing in fandom where people take what the author says or writes and think that's what he believes, or wants from the character. They thought that him saying he's a brand extension of Batman means he'll gonna write him that way, even if he's just saying what DC/WB is doing with the character.  ​

Another example, when the Robins story first announced, that Batman has a secret first Robin, instead of thinking that there's gonna be a twist in the story, especially since this is pretty much a similar mystery as Batman and Robin Eternal, certain fans think it's DC meddling with continuity again and that The Author Know Nothing... which, to be fair, DC does meddle with continuity, and it doesn't help that Seeley pick, choose and alter past continuity too... so even if they have a benefit of the doubt back then... it's gone now... because they're now convinced this is is just DC and the author being stupid and know nothing.

Another example, a new author is assigned to write Bat fam... specifically Talia... people are hyped because she's middle eastern... but then immediately became antagonistic once they find out she used to make a fanfic about romantically pairing the Robins brothers... because the assumption is she must be gonna apply that fantasy to canon.

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## Avi

> [...]
> 
> Anyway, it's nice that Nightwing and Robin are doing well. Surprising that Titans united is ranked so low. It's considerably better than TTA.


Titans United had marketing and bad expectations working against it until it actually came out and told a good story. It also seems like it "doesn't matter". The direct market doesn't really like such books.




> [...]
> Another example, a new author is assigned to write Bat fam... specifically Talia... people are hyped because she's middle eastern... but then immediately became antagonistic once they find out she used to make a fanfic about romantically pairing the Robins brothers... because the assumption is she must be gonna apply that fantasy to canon.


Wait, what? Did that happen?





> Creators have always wanted to write Nightwing. It’s DC who refused to “waste” big names on Dick and instead insisted on putting them on Batman. Waid’s Daredevil run started as a pitch for Nightwing but DC didn’t want to put a “big name” like Waid on a book like Nightwing.


I think the problem is, who wants to write Dick now and for what reason? And the reason mostly seems to be that they never got a (good) shot years ago.

Nicieza has wanted to write a proper Nightwing run for a long time and still seems into the idea. Waid seems to be in the same boat given he wants to heavily involve Dick in World's Finest. No idea about what Nicieza would do, but Waid would probably continue the 90s parade or fall straight into the 80s.

Even Snyder's BL book is an old Batman Dick idea retooled, and he isn't in any rush to start it.

Another one who has claimed to be interested in Dick is Johns, who is so good at writing his favs we don't see him write them at all.

And the thing is, I don't think DC Editorial has necessarily changed how it approaches Dick yet, even if the hire-ups that had the most against him are gone. Lemire & Nguyen wanted to do Robin Earth One, and while I enjoy Robin & Batman immensely, getting that gig wouldn’t only have given them more page count but also more time to focus on Dick and create something entirely new. Not sure if it was a Robin Dick solo DC had a problem with or if the pitch got pushed aside because they are dropping Earth One. I'm just going to assume it's both. It's also strange that Robin & Batman exists as this Black Label seeming book without actually being Black Label.

And because writers aren’t the only important element: I haven’t seen artists practically beg to be on Nightwing the way you sometimes see them do for other characters. (Though I appreciate being proven wrong about this.)

Maybe Jamal Campbell would like to be on Nightwing properly, given he drew and wrote a Dick black-and-white story, was drawing some of Humphries' arc, and seems to stay on NW Variants despite being the main artist on Naomi again. During his work on Far Sector he was said to be a slow artist, so if he does NW Variants and Naomi at the same time that seems like dedication to the character. 




> Random Idea: Watching Hawkeye on D+... is that the way to do Batman and Robin?


The genuine bonding and found family feeling is something I would want to see in a Robin & Batman movie or series. But overall Kate & Clint are extremely different from Dick & Bruce, so there aren't any specific elements I would say fit.

Tbh, I would rather DC not look at it at all because their horrible takeaway would probably be that Robin Dick has to be Kate's age so that he is a morally sound sidekick.




> And once again, WB ain't nothing for how they described Dick vs everyone else when promo'ing for Gotham Knights. For some reason Dick's only redeeming qualities as a vigilante is the fact that he is a charismatic leader who is the oldest/wise and a master acrobat.


I just read the character bios and yeah, Dick’s reads very watered down, and it's strange that they mention an incident that put Babs in the wheelchair and Jason dying but not Dick's parents dying.

The only thing I want from the game is that it shows Dick's connection to the court, but with Dick's luck some higher-up decided during development not to include it.




> Re-exploring Dick's time as Robin in the comics is probably the best Dick Grayson content that DC has put out with him in years. But I wish they would spend more time giving the actual Nightwing part of him some of that same love/attention.


I agree. It seems to me as if DC is pushing Robin Dick more than ever. 

Two Batman/Superman runs with Dick. Robin & Batman. The Tec event has Robin Dick on more covers than Nightwing, plus a back-up story… The Robins OGN too. I wish that would mean they are working toward something and that little wee Dick is going to appear at the end of The Batman.

It does make me wonder how good Tec is going to be to Nightwing. Dick going up against Psycho-Pirate will be fun - if he doesn’t get jobbed again, and it at least seems as if they are letting Dick investigate, which sounds good, but then solicitations go right back to the usual bat event stuff: Bruce saves Dick - who is drugged up on fear toxin of all overdone things. 

And because I mentioned the OGNs above. It's baffling that Dick doesn't have a Nightwing OGN.

The Lost Carnival was alright, but it didn’t have a recognizable name. “A Dick Grayson story” is only the subheading. One that didn’t make it onto the spine of the book! (“Unearthed: A Jessica Cruz story” has the whole name on the spine.) It also pushed Dick into the background apart from the romance instead of embracing that it could have done anything with Dick. And his upcoming TT OGN is of course Robin, which he shares with Damian.





> Speaking of Young Justice, I hate how Dick went from being a really well rounded and personable character with aspirations. He had an idea of who he wanted to be and wanted to build a path towards it. But starting mid-season 2, it seems Dick turned into the one thing he said he never wanted to be. Since then, Dick hasn't been portrayed as the best in Young Justice, if at all. Really starting to get tired of the character nerfing that seems to happen to him. I pray the rumors of him sharing an arc with another character are not true, because I really want to see Dick react to Jason and do some reflection on the person he has become. I just also hope it doenst turn into a Dick blame fest that normally happens in the comics. Dick has lost three people who he was close with, Wally, Jason and now Connor. I want to see him explore his mental health and finally go on that path he set out to go on from season 1. No batfam, no other Young Justice characters. Just Dick, Dinah and Jason. The fewer people in his arc for me would be the better. Otherwise, the writers just make him look like a hypocrite and also dropped the ball on a really great character arc that started in season 1. Fingers crossed that Nightwing's arc in young justie actually does his character some good service. He has also been seen with Black Lightening and Superman here and there too, so there is also that.


Dick definitely has become too much like Bruce. Season 1 was great for him, the other seasons dropped the ball in comparison, even if I could get some enjoyment out of Season 3.

I'm not sure how much trust I have in a good portrayal in Season 4. By the time Dick's arc starts, there’ll probably be three storylines that are being told at once, and he’ll have twenty minutes of the spotlight if at all.

I'd prefer to see Dick interact with Jefferson again and the League as a whole. I'm not interested in another “Red Hood” storyline with Jason. Especially now that Titans just did that. I also have a feeling that if they focus on Jason, he'll be what Vandal Savage was to Zatanna's arc.

Only Dick and Jason maybe Dinah might work, but I don't think a Dick and Jason arc without the Batfamily is realistic. They'll invite themselves.




> Just a quick thought, but are they? It's a little sad to think about, but with the Infinite Frontier reboot, Taylor brought back a version of Dixon's classic Bludhaven and Dick's history with it, right? So far, the only non-Dixon Bludhaven event mentioned has been the Ric Grayson era. Nothing from Rebirth, not the Untouchable story either, and as might be expected, nothing from Percy's run either.
> 
> Like, to put it into perspective, the big reason Tim and Babs were made to be relevant to Taylor's first arc is because Dick is said to still be recovering from the injury that made him an amnesiac in the first place. Even when Dick shows off some cool feats near the end of the arc, the context is that even if Dick is capable of great things, he shouldn't be risking things because of his injury (and he still does because of course he does, he's Dick Grayson). This run may be primarily built on "classic" Bludhaven, but Dick himself is still on a journey to recover from the inciting incident of the Ric era. I don't think DC has done much of anything to make us forget it happened, more like Taylor is moving to make it feel worthwhile in the long run... which isn't the worst thing ever (I've said it before, it's a very effective way of nerfing Dick whenever the plot needs to), but it's not something I'm happy about lol.


Well, yeah, I kinda agree. Ric bled into Taylor's first arc whenever it got convenient. In addition to what HsssH mentioned, Robin #5 made a Ric joke too.

It makes sense that Taylor is only using Ric because what Humphries and Seeley did doesn't fit with his Blüdhaven. It would destroy his 90s illusion.

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## 9th.

Came across this on YT and it really made my day  :Big Grin:

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## Lal

> Maybe Jamal Campbell would like to be on Nightwing properly, given he drew and wrote a Dick black-and-white story, was drawing some of Humphries' arc, and seems to stay on NW Variants despite being the main artist on Naomi again. During his work on Far Sector he was said to be a slow artist, so if he does NW Variants and Naomi at the same time that seems like dedication to the character.


I think Campbell once said that Nightwing is his favorite. 

Also Nick Robles (who did Jason variant cover in the Robins) said he wanted to draw Nightwing professionally - https://twitter.com/ArtofNickRobles/...49547797508098

It also seems that Nightwing is #1 on CBR’s Top 100 comics of the year. Nice.
the https://www.cbr.com/cbr-top-100-comics-of-2021-10-1/

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## marhawkman

Hmmm  i'd be happy to see a book with Dick as Batman and Damian and Nightwing.  :Stick Out Tongue:

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## Rac7d*

> Hmmm  i'd be happy to see a book with Dick as Batman and Damian and Nightwing.


I’m not opposed to it, Damian is right now the only person I can see taking on Nightwing as a mantle.
But I know a happy dick is not one who is Batman.

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